In this episode, we talk to Dr. Drew Hines about STEM education and the mission of Greencorps Chicago. Dr. Hines discusses Greencorps’ project-based model to provide job training, support regional sustainability, and build partnerships with higher education. We also talk about theory versus practice in the practical application setting.

Note: As of this rebooted release in February 2024, Dr. Drew Hines is now the Community and Private Land Conservation Field Chief for the Missouri Department of Conservation.

Referenced in this podcast:

• City of Chicago :: Greencorps Chicago - Greencorps Chicago is the City of Chicago’s green industry job training program for individuals with barriers to employment.
• Greencorps Chicago - Greencorps Chicago’s mission is to empower residents from Chicagoland’s underserved neighborhoods to create change in their lives and communities through training, service, and career opportunities in environmental fields.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

stem, people, teaching, communities, Chicago, good, learn, college, teach, degree, started, social justice, drew, impact, schools, talk, program, soil

SPEAKERS

Joi Patterson, Amy Vujaklija, Drew Hines

Let's teach you all not only how to restore the environment, but also restore yourself and then give back to the communities in which you wants harm.

This episode was originally released under the podcast titled teaching and learning theory versus practice. This rebooted episode has been migrated to teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi. I am Dr. Amy Vujaklija, Director of educator preparation.

And I am Dr. Joi Patterson, Chief Diversity Officer. Our podcast addresses issues through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow as educators.

So join us on our journey to become better teachers and leaders. So let's get into it.

Good morning, Dr. Amy.

Good morning, Dr. Joi. How are you today?

I'm doing great. We're going to talk about one of my favorite subjects. Today we're going to talk about STEM and why it's so important and kind of what's going on in the STEM arena today. According to the US Department of Commerce, STEM occupations are growing at 17% compared to any other occupation at about 9.8%. And STEM degree holders like myself, we tend to earn more money. I don't know about that part. But people with STEM degrees they tend to earn more money. They just play such a key role in our economy. And especially we're talking about global warming all the time. They just play such a key role. I started a me out of college. My first position was as a research microscopy. And if you don't know what a research microscopy This is, share Plater research microscopy has and Silkwood. Do you know that movie? Are you old enough to even know that movie? No, I

don't know that.

So she played a research microsite because in my job, this was during Desert Storm. I don't know if you remember, I'm dating myself. And my job was to isolate plutonium and uranium particles and things like that. So really, really important job. But that was my first job out of college. I it was easy actually, to get a job in my field and stem.

Something else? I'm really eager to talk about our alternate pathways to get into STEM fields. Yeah,

well, that's exciting. Because I started in college. There's so many alternate pathways, not just for students, but for adults, too. So I think we should talk about what does stem mean? So STEM stands for science, technology, engineering and math. So most people are kind of accustomed to that now, but STEM is everywhere. One concern that I do have about the STEM field is are we doing enough to prepare our students for STEM fields. Some schools have added coding as early as kindergarten, which is great. But I like for us to get to a place where even in our homes STEM is really important. Like you teach your kids how to cook, how to clean, do their finances, all those things that we think are essential for their life but so is stem. My other concern, which I want us to talk about today is the disparity of STEM initiatives, especially when we talk about Marginalized schools and communities. I'm looking forward to us talking to one such person today who has activated stem.

Absolutely. Dr. Andrew Hines is with us from Green Corp Chicago. Dr. Hines holds a PhD in community psychology and a master's in geography with a concentration in community urban and economic development. And he is an Air Force veteran, born and raised in Chicago, Drew graduated from Chicago High School for agricultural sciences, his ancestral roots are in agriculture and teaching. He felt that those legacies drove him to his mission that he now champions today. Drew oversees staff consultants and is responsible for managing the planning, operational and administrative functions for the city of Chicago screen core Chicago program. Drew is passionate about workforce development and social service programs that assist underserved populations and communities to become more economically stable. Drew loves learning about African American ethnography and is a champion social justice, and we're going to talk about that today. I believe he is a social justice grandbaby. So welcome to our show. Dr. Hines.

Thank you, Amy. How you doing? Hey, Dr. Joi, how are you?

Good morning, Dr. Hines, Drew. Good to see you this morning. I want to start with because you have such an amazing story of Dr. Amy say your social justice babies, but tell us about your beginning. Tell us how this started. What made you the person that you are and also your beginnings when you got into urban agriculture?

Okay, so let's I was born kind of born and raised literally, in the black Baptist Church, my grandparents, from edicts, and direction of Martin Luther King and all the CLC and the snick. Organizations down in the south, came to Chicago, along with Jesse Jackson and my great uncle, the Reverend Dr. Clay evidence started operation breadbasket. So Ralph's bread basket predates Rainbow PUSH predating operation push. So that was back way, you know, before I was born. So that kind of ancestral DNA kind of came up during the generations. And then my mom was actually the Jesse Jackson's first secretary. Operation breadbasket. It's like a, like a fraternal plumb line there. And then what I did was my day, my grandpa grandparents raised on a farm. And then, when I was 15, I was at, I attended the Chicago high school, back cultural sciences, it was kind of crazy, because I was just, you know, throwing corn around and playing the dirt, you know, stuff like that, and didn't really understand the complexity of what I did. Complexity of farming and urban AG. But I learned horticulture, I learned botany I learned arbery You learn how do you know soil composition, is soils, not dirt is soil, soil composition, probably dirt, but it's so composition and how the breakdown of it how to nitrogen, you know, in the crop rotation, and you know, this, that, you know, just starting to just understand the complexity of it. And then went to University of Tennessee actually studied behavioral science there. But I always had a yearning towards agriculture, because my grandma had a, you know, on his victory gardens back in do during the time when they had the World War Two, and that was my mother's side, not my father's side. They're like six Great Grand Father, which is called the daily ions from which are named after he was actually a farmer, and Powell, Texas. And then his wife, which is Cecilia, Joanne, she actually was, had graduated in 1887 from Selma University. So you know, you saw the commencement. Yes, yes. That was amazing. Right? So I was trying to figure out why this tug of, like agriculture and tug of teaching were putting on me, so that was like that ancestral stuff, kind of DNA is powerful, you know, I'm saying coming through, but I feel like, you know, we have to definitely understand nature from that standpoint, but so that kinda, you know, doing the psychology and teaching at city colleges and all this other stuff, I was given an opportunity to head Greencore. And I was like, hmm, so this is something I really want to do. So it was a natural fit and a natural progression for me to be where I'm at right now. So I feel like, you know, that ancestral DNA that those ancestral spirits tugging on me, my education, the, my social justice, roots, you know, kind of all unconscious to what I'm doing right now.

So, I mean, you have really big shoes to fill, you do have this ancestral DNA to do the work that you're doing, but you were in law enforcement at one time. Yes, I was. Connect the dots. How did you go from law enforcement? Urban agriculture, you know, did you went back to school? What sparked all that?

You might have saw my granddad? You know, he, you know, he was policemen on a railroad. Actually, he was a Pullman Porter before he did that. So you know, he was a Philip Randolph. They were real good friends like I'm like a Philip Randolph. Wow. You know, and then all his friends and buddies were you know, like law enforcement and stuff like that. So I thought I was my natural progression to go but then when I started to see was I was actually good at and kind of mentoring and good that kind of helping you know, young guys because I will just see guys being locked up being locked up and it's like, man, you know, they were really good. Individuals really good guys. They just were misguided, misdirected. So Oh ended up you know, getting hurt on the job. And I said, Okay. And sometimes that will listen to that those and stuff through DNA knocking at you. So did that. And it was like home geography. Wow. Okay. And I've always loved geography, the dynamics of nature. So I kind of just went into that start helping people, but I concentrated in Community Economic and urban development. So how can we take what we have, and then use it, and use the tools and use the nature and environment around us to be able to make our lives different, because that's really all geography is, is understanding spaces and how people take in React, React, but also interact in those spaces to make, you know, produce life as a community or community is, is a subset of people with like minded interests. Right. That's what that's what it is. So yeah, so that's kind of what happened. And I just haven't turned back. And so I saw was on one side of, okay, well, I'm dealing with the issues and the problems. I said, Okay, well, let me jump over here. And then we help solve some of these issues and help be a change maker or be a part of the solution. At one point in time that I was actually being a punitive person in terms of we got, we got the end result. So I wanted to be at the beginning of the line. So that kind of helped to kind of minimize those end results of guys, you know, going into the criminal justice system and stuff like that. So

well, you were talking about being led being called maybe that head position at Green Corp. And it had to been the mission of green Corp that called you tell us more about the goal that green Corp has for Chicago.

So green Corp has four unique strategies of teaching people, landscape, ecological restoration, tree care and green infrastructure. We try to help people with barriers to employment, some of those barriers are educational, so various social, economic, criminal justice involved, and just trying to teach something, give them a good example, but also teach them about the environment. And we do have probably 70 to 85% of the people that come to Greencore have criminal justice involvement. Okay. And then, you know, we have this concept now, which is restorative justice. So now you can have environmental restorative justice, because a lot of these individuals, they actually have done damage to the environment, and not necessarily physical damage, but physical and social, you know, damage. So now we'd say, okay, clean slate, here we are. So let's teach you all, not only how to restore the environment, but also restore yourselves and then give back to the communities in which you wants harm. That

is really nice. I like that restorative justice approach on both sides, restore the earth, restore yourself. And there's a lot to be learned. I imagine that's therapy. Yes, it is. That's part of therapy for them. Can you talk more about who you employ? And maybe give us an example? And also interesting, I mean, when you employ them, are they earning salaries? Are they volunteering,

I went to University of Tennessee, and our motto was volunteer, so I don't believe in volunteering anymore. I've done that type of work. You know, I've been in the military. And I believe that I don't believe in volunteering. And I've done I look, I volunteer for king and country, and everybody else I'm done balancing. And I just believe that if you pay a person, a good wage, and then they will be more inclined to work better. If you you know, do not get it, you know, we, we you know, we have kumbaya moments, and it's good to volunteer. But if you want to change community, you have to pay people, you have to pay them a living wage. That's what America is about. But so we do, like I said, don't limit ourselves to the disaggregated and disinvested communities, because we take everybody but we will definitely want to take that underserved disaggregated person that maybe are on the like outliers in society and kind of bring them in say, Well, hey, look at it from a different lens, look at it from say, Hey, you learn these skills. So as you learn these skills, you're getting paid minimum wage was $15 an hour. You also are kind of creating that social mobility for you and your family and your loved ones and kind of putting taking you on a different pipeline than maybe people in your family were. So we try to encourage and we also teach soft skills and try to teach and try to create or reinforce the holistic approach, not just getting paying for But teaching them soft skills, teaching them hard skills. And we're actually working on real world projects, like real world projects. If you go out now I can tell you, there are some places, you know, in Inglewood that we worked on places in Chicago partnership, we're working on places in Cook County Forest preserve that we worked through. I mean, I didn't know there was a sweet woods. You know, I didn't even know myself and Alaska. I'm like, wow, so I've been by Glenwood, where I used to skate, you know? So it's like, wow, so it's just understanding, you know, Chicago, and then, as a geographer, I understand Chicago. But in terms of as ecological restore or even getting into nature in a natural spaces and what Chicago is known for, it's like, wow, so you're just just learning about, and then you start to appreciate the line. It was freezing in Texas, you know, so climate change is real. You don't say it really is real. We have to, we have the polar vortex we have the El Ninos and El Nino eyes, and you know, the different weather patterns. So we want population, especially an underserved and underrepresented population to understand because it's less than 1% of minorities in this field, less than 1%. Okay, so we I just want to just have an impact, and be able to actually get into a field not have all the traditional restrictions and traditional barriers, then they can come in and say, Hey, do this and then actually have a real meaningful change in their lives. And

you talked about social mobility, skills, having training really impacts the social mobility that one can experience, right? About the education piece that might be at play, too, because having some college credit, or some kind of college background can often also propel people forward.

Right? So so what we're doing now is we're in the process of two things, two different pathways. With the Department of Labor, we're in the process of making Greencore and apprenticeship, qualified program, Department of Labor, which gives the impact on some along the same lines of being a pipe fitter, a plumber, electrician, or carpentry. So that pathway, then we also working with City Colleges of Chicago, specifically right college to get the ICCB certification, which is a Illinois Community College Board certification that our program can give college credit towards individuals who go through the program. And I know me, I didn't know I did finish undergrad, you know, teenagers 18 to 24. But I know as an adult, going to school was very challenging with kids, you know, it was really challenging. So you want to kind of say, Okay, well, can I go through this program, and there may be college credit and it can kind of remember pathway so that I can kind of get my associates. And as you like you said social mobility, Dr. Amy and upward mobility. So you get an associate's degree, associate's degree, you couple more years, you get a bachelor's degree, and so on, and so forth. So we started $15 an hour. But then once you go, you can go to the Chicago Park District, or go to the Cook County Forest Reserve, and then start making you know, 18 $19 now, and then you get some more education, college credits, you can kind of start getting into those middle living wage and middle income wage gaps, and then even go higher professional, you know, where you making some real good money and really changing the intergenerational trajectory

for you came on we were talking about that people actually in STEM field and STEM degrees, they make more money, other professions. I mean, there's a wealth of employment out there if you're in a STEM field. Can you talk to us about how green Corps is funded? And about the sustainability of green corps?

Okay, so, so green Corps has been around since 1994. So it's been around for 2025 27 years. Wow, I didn't know that. Right. Yeah. And that's the thing and we're actually doing some branding on getting us more notoriety and more a branding out into the public school. They know who we are, right?

That's how that's how I connected with you. I saw it and I said, Oh, I want to do that. I want to volunteer I grew up in Inglewood. I want to do that.

Right. And just in just in case we actually are building for urban farms in Inglewood right now as we speak and one of them are always complete this at 58. And hosted if you want to go by and take a look at we did all that. Also in terms of hiring. We've been around for like 27 years and we've started the program with the urban gardens and teaching communities about urban gardening and teaching communities how to take these vacant lots and transform them into a beautiful place. A place of you know that a peaceful place but also a place that actually works for you have the Vegetables and you know, of course in the wintertime No, but definitely starting to how to remediate the land, how to grow the vegetables, teaching classes, how to grow raised beds, how you take the soil and how you can transform the soil and use the soil may be lacking in this member will take this over here and use this mineral. So just kind of just teaching people in certain communities who probably have never found to have never even had a class in horticulture or botany and teaching them really how to, you know, self sustain and being more sustainable. You know, now they have these pop up vegetable gardens that we pop pop up farmers markets, you know, and we don't know, I don't know if you guys know, but you know, vegetables are high in, in stores right now. Yes, commodity. So what you want we want to do is want to teach generations, you know, connecting the big moms and grandmas who used to back in the day to the young people say, Well, this is how you do it. This is how you grow. This is how the and vegetables are good for you. Great vegetables are good playing, even with my own kids. And teaching them is nice. But when you start to learn the process, and they start to respect the process start to understand the process is like, Oh, this is pretty cool. And the science behind that because this is a science, you know, is a science, you don't know, you guys know? Well, you know, probably around the same age, but like,

thank you.

Yeah, 35 Of course, you know. So you know that everybody thought that George Washington Carver was just the peanut that but he was a blindness, you know, he was I mean he was a scientist, he understood how how to take the nitrogen nitrogen in the soil and and put it with the peanut and put nitrogen back in the soil in the crop rotation and start to have what you can't grow vegetables here. But you can grow there, after you till the soil and take the minerals, put them back in the soil. And then how if you put to play this year, tomatoes over here, and you plant corn over here, then guess what, if you plant rutabagas over here, then you know what tomatoes are because of tomatoes and the remnants of what tomato gave off in the soil will make the root of baker's grow. So that's a whole complex science of just botany, and horticulture. It's like this amazing once you really get into it. So just teaching on that level. So we're getting back into the community this year, and trying to kind of just get people to eat healthier, you know, we know about you know, like, United States has the highest mortality rate, highest obesity, right? So we have to really look at like, okay, like the food systems, the health systems, like, how can we be a change maker with those, you know, on a small scale, and then we use a small scale, kind of scale up, scale up, scale up, and hopefully, we'll be able to make an impact.

I am an English teacher, and you are getting me excited. It's fascinating listening to your excitement about vegetables and growing and knowing the science behind this, it has to really impact the people that you work with. And what I'd love to hear is some success story. Where do people work after their involvement? You mentioned the park district.

So we have one we have one, we have actually a couple. We have one gentleman out there on tech, when we did on Channel Seven, he did some serious federal time. And he went through the program about seven, eight years ago. And then he went on to a different he went from Greencore on to a different agency out in the south suburbs, and made some really good money through a grant they had out there in Jermaine ended up coming back. And then he's been working as a crew supervisor, and now he's actually going to be promoted to a project supervisor now, you know, with within Greencore after he came back, and then there's another gentleman and Henry did some serious time was serious crime. And he can't do Greencore now he works for the Cook County Forest Preserve. And he's making some really good money. He's at the professional level. You know, he's making some professional wages, and he actually is like, really, really good. And he comes back and he speaks to some of the new trainees. But then also we have three or four people that we've actually hired on that have been with Greencore that will try and ease we've impacted a lot of people in underserved communities.

So we are talking to Dr. Andrew Lee Hines, Dr. Drew part of the Dr. Amy Dr. Joi Dr. Drew show we're talking about everything. We have talked about STEM, we've talked about urban agriculture, we've talked about eating healthy. We've talked about restorative justice, we've just hit on so many points, and it all kind of revolves Rob, you're just perfect for this mission. And for this job, your background, starting as a child and your family for social justice, your career in criminal justice, and the ability to relate to some of the people that you're working with, and to catapult them to the next level to give them opportunities and working in agriculture. I mean, it's just a perfect match for you, you were built for this. And we're so happy to be talking to you today. Thank you earlier, Amy and I, we were talking about kind of some ebbs and flows in STEM fields. And at some time, it feels like it was kind of a fad, that everybody's on this track to do STEM. And then you have these down periods. But still, you know, there's this huge need is here to stay. And I'm just wondering, with green cord, how do you respond to such a need? How do people find you? How do people get involved in what you're doing?

Well, we have a green core, www dot Greencore chicago.org. That's one way to find us on. And usually we'll be having community. So if you see like Greencore sign like that, and it has like all the light that we have little safety vest, you might see it. So we're working in the Emerald south area, which is the Washington Park area, we're working in the on the west side, in the middle of the Madison Pulaski corridor. We're also working, let's say Inglewood in a park districts. But like I said, Greencore chicago.org, you can find us but we are housed at the CCGT which is Chicago Center for Green technology. We

built this podcast out of a theory versus practice question. Joy and I are

gonna hit you with it.

Throughout your education, there's a lot of theory that we learn. And we want to put it into practice. But we know it's much more complex question and that the two are intertwined so much. And there's a next step, would you say, with theory, practice, what is that next?

The next step is called application. And that's what we learn. We learn theoretic theory, we learn practical, and we learn application so I'm so you know, I, you know, I'm gonna say my little example that you know, I told joy is just like, we all had shop, I went to skylights, the aperture size and a lot of my friends went to CVS and and these trade kind of bass schools and like we have the shops where you did the mechanics with the cars. And it's cool when I've done it, you know, you have a car that you pull in, and it's 7080 degrees in the shop, you know, you're trying to you're changing a tire, you know, the little wheel well and blow the wrench and stuff like that perfect, controlled environment. But that's not how life how everybody knows

30 degrees or 3030.

But what I'm saying is that you all to 90 coming home from a party you're kicking it, and it's got a nice shoes on right right December, you got to stay Seattle's zone, you got to Ferragamo zone, or you gotta you know, you guys got your loo batons or your or your stiletto low, and you get a flat tire. You're not trying to wait on the Minute Man from the state to come. It's 30 degrees outside with the windshield minus 15 is stolen is two o'clock in the morning, and I gotta change flight time. So now how do you deal with Oh, so you have to rely on those theories and those in that practice that you did. But how you apply those things he remember what to do? Can you remember how to be safe? And he remember these things? So I'm in terms of the application list. So how do we apply these theories? And these principles? Like, I know, all of us are like, I would consider myself a practicing academic, because I'm a teacher, but also am in the in the field? How do we apply these principles? How do how do we use these principles? You know, like data? I have with my colleagues always we have this argument about data data is good. But guess what, when you look at data, which you're looking at, you're looking at people or you're looking at incidents, so you have to take the data of the whole mezzo or the macro data and micro analyze it to understand the people. So you do that. You know, that is that's the whole gamut. That's my girl. That's the macro the mezzo and the micro, you have to take all synthesize

it. Yeah. I have a quiz for you. Okay. Amy failed earlier. Do you remember the movie Silkwood would share? There was a research microscopy was That was my first job with my degree in bio ology search microscopy is okay, wow, I was a research microscopy, which was kind of the lowest job at this research.

Or, okay,

I went back to Governor State University to earn my master's degree in environmental biology and had a wonderful experience at Governor State University, that was my first time in a helicopter, you know, not applying a helicopter very different. You know, we were studying cattle and doing some things like that. So, so you're right. I mean, you really have to be able to activate this stuff, you have to send the sizes, information, get your hands dirty, literally. You know, I was out there chasing bowls and things like that. It was amazing. But GSU, they still have that wonderful program. But also, we have a STEM camp every summer for I think age nine all the way to 18. They make robots they do a lot of coding, but it's a wonderful program, and we serve as all the local schools in the south suburbs. So it's wonderful. So I mean, we need more programs, like what we're doing at GSU, and what you're doing, but I have I have a final question for you. Because we talked about so much to talk about that connection between that social justice stem, and how is our basic responsibility as good citizens?

Okay, so I'm telling you, like, my grandkids, you know, I have to rely on my grandparents, my grandparents, my grandpa taught me something at a very early age, for things basic things, land, man plan, then the claim, oh, say

that, again, Drew,

land, if you believe in creation, or if you believe in evolution, what came first, the land came first. And then after the land came first, the man second after the man came, then you had the plan? That's the geography. And then after you planned it, I know some of us did it backwards. But then you created a family, which is the client. Wow. So all those are intersecting with each other. Right? So the land is what geography? The man is what psychology sociality, the plan is pretty much intertwined with the sociology and ethnography. And then the client is actually the sociology. How do we design society? How to socialize, socialize our kids? How do we socialize with each other? How do we teach? So all those four concepts, so that's kind of how you kind of put everything together if we have to eat? Okay, we eating is essential. And there's gonna come a time where, you know, we may not have the genetically modified stuff, we're gonna have to go right back to where we're doing the like the gathering, and learning how to be sustainable and learning how to actually grow our own food. So how we we put everything together how we teach is, you teach according to a history, how do we evolve to where we're at now, we are wanting cereal with cereal worried and we're like, Oh, me, you know, mermaids or something like that? Well, Captain Crunch and profit from him, right? You know, I'm saying, we really have to go back to the essence of simplicity, but also the complexity of the simplicity, meaning understanding how we can teach our children teaching the next generation, so have the intergenerational wealth, but health, but that knowledge is that we have lost a lot of institutional knowledge, and what I mean interest, institutional knowledge about humanity. And I have another saying is that a lot of us, I've been fortunate enough to be able to understand who I am, and where I come from, and because of who I am, and I come from, then I do the work. And then once I do the work, then guess what I can do I can be, and I can be the best human being from being able to know who I am, done the work. And then you have that, like you said, good stewards of not only each other, but the planet too.

Joi and I are both teacher educators. We are in higher ed in educator preparation. And we always want to make sure to speak to the educators out there, whether they are high school teachers, administrators, counselors, and for so long College has been that traditional way. And of course, we want to welcome students to our university, but we want to welcome them when they're ready at any point in their lives, whether it's right out of high School as a career change, whatever point they decide, higher education is for them. I want to get your thoughts or see if you have some advice for counselors or high school teachers, to help them see that there are alternate ways to work and while also gaining an education, what would you tell them about these different pathways? What are those last tips that you would share with them?

Authenticity, I believe is On Being authentic with people being authentic with the students because sometimes students say, Ah, this is what I gotta do. You know, and sometimes the one you got to meet them where they are, okay, you have to meet them, okay, they may not be ready. But if you give them enough advice, and be very authentic, I'm gonna go say, Well, my bread said, granddad used to tell me if he was saying this, and I never understood this till I'd have no wrong, he was say, intimacy, without authenticity is seduction. And, and a lot of these students feel like they're being seduced to do something, right? Because they're because they're not, they don't feel the integral part of the process part of the right part of the process. And they don't, and they don't, and they say, okay, trust the process, trust the process. But you ask them to trust something, but they don't, but they're not involved in it. You're not asking them okay, what do you think? What do you feel? What's going on with you? So they've been seduced into these situations in his life, and they, they follow the trust process, part of the process, and then they don't understand the process. So they throw him out there. And then they end up failing and falling, falling down. And it's like, and then you look at him, Oh, see, I told you. No, you have to, you have to build trust. So that's why I say the if you got to be intimate with students get to know him, whether that elite whether they know, however, as they are, but you have to be authentic. I don't like college until grad school. That's when I really got into that, Oh, my God, I'm having fun communities now. My grad school professors, they became intimate with you, they started understanding, we started having conversations, they said, This is why this is this, this is that, because the who, what, when, where, and why. But we always leave out the why. And then we never tell them that the house is gonna come, but you got to figure out the Wi Fi.

Right? That's really powerful. You know, every 18 year old, coming out of high school is not ready to go to college. And often times, especially if you're an educator, or you're, you know, we push our kids to college, and they're not ready and they're not successful, so that readiness and readiness is not just about academics, right? It's you need to hold buy in, and you need to know how it's going to impact you. So that's something that's powerful for anyone that's apparent to me. Right. But it's been wonderful talking to you, Dr. Drew the philosopher

that this Thank you. We have learned their wisdom, which is pretty amazing. You talked about the why it's got to be the why of your life, right? And how it relates to you and what you've talked about today. It's just so enlightening and inspiring. And I know our listeners will be inspired as well.

Continue to do all the amazing work that you're doing.

Thank you. I really appreciate it.

Thank you for listening to teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi. Visit our website at govst.edu/teaching and leading podcast to see the show notes from this episode.

We appreciate Governor State University's work behind the scenes to make publishing possible. Stay tuned for more episodes with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi