Egg Meets Sperm, the best podcast to guide you through your fertility journey holistically because fertility takes two!

In this episode, I’m joined by Dr. Catherine Clinton, a quantum biology expert, to dive into how quantum principles like energy, light, and mitochondrial health play a crucial role in fertility.

Dr. Catherine Clinton, licensed naturopathic physician, spent over 15 years helping people overcome their health issues. Diagnosed with two autoimmune conditions and Lyme disease while in medical school, she began the long and difficult journey of healing- a path that led to the commitment to help others to not only heal physically but to return to the relationships we evolved over millennia with for a deeper sense of health and belonging. By healing herself and patients like her, she discovered that true health comes from our relationships. Dr. Catherine has learned how our quantum biological system is intimately and inseparably connected to the world around us. Our relationship with the dirt beneath our feet, the sun, the wind, the water, the plants, the seasons, each other- that is the real medicine. Her mission is to empower as many people as she can with this knowledge to encourage the paradigm shift, we so desperately need.

Key topics covered:

• What is quantum biology and how does it affect fertility?
• The role of mitochondria in fertility and hormone production
• How natural and artificial light impacts your reproductive health
• The importance of circadian rhythms and melatonin in fertility
• The connection between microbiomes, mitochondria, and fertility
• Tools and therapies for enhancing mitochondrial function and fertility

Follow Dr Clinton on Instagram @dr.catherineclinton

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 Hey, it's Dr. Avatma, host of Egg MeatSperm, and this is the best podcast to get all of the vital information that you need to support your fertility journey holistically for you and your partner, because fertility takes two.

Welcome, Dr. Catherine. It's great to have you here. I'm so So happy to chat with you. I've we've known each other for so long. So it's finally great to like have the opportunity to officially pick your brain. Um, and you've just been such a wealth of information and education and empowerment. So I think this will be awesome.

Oh, absolutely. It's so wonderful to talk with you and I'm just honored to be here today. So thank you so much for having me on. Absolutely. So let's dive right in. What is quantum biology? That's a great question, right? Because so many of us have heard of quantum physics and we've heard of biology, but we haven't heard of that marriage of the two.

And it's a new emerging field that really brings some validation to these practices that we've been using. Over millennia as humans, right? And so it's the study of quantum phenomenon, like entanglement and tunneling and coherence in living systems. It's really the underpinnings of life and our biology.

And simply put, it's just looking at the flow of electrons and protons. Photons of light, phonons from sound, our thoughts and emotions and how those impact life and our biology. It's a fascinating field. Mm. Mm hmm. So tell me, like, In kind of the practical way, how does this knowledge, the awareness that we have this, like, exchange of photons and electrons and all the other things, um, how, How does it affect us if for like, let's just make it super tangible for people that are going through their fertility journey.

Yes, absolutely. Right. So all these big words are talking about how it's the smallest gears that start moving to initiate what we see on our lab work, right, or our symptoms or our, Uh, you know, fertility, our hormone patterns and, and panels and all of these things start and initiate With quantum action on the very small level What's happening in the mitochondria those little jelly beans shape organelles?

inside of our cells, creating the backbone of our hormones, our energy, our fertility, that has to do with the flow of electrons and protons, right? So that's a huge piece of quantum biology. How our light environment is working with Our hormones and our state of health is another really foundational thing.

So while I might be talking about electrons and protons and photons, really I'm talking about our state of energy, our ability to make hormones, our ability to get pregnant and stay pregnant. Our ability to, um, have our circadian rhythms working in a way and our light environment working in a way where we are healthy and thriving.

Hmm. Okay. So you're kind of, it's not the type of energy that's like, yeah, I have energy to like get through my day. But we're talking about like a subtler energy that is influencing like how our cells work, how our endocrine system works, how our body makes hormones, how it communicates with each other, just all of the like underpinning of energy, quote unquote, that just doesn't really have a better word.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You're spot on. It's how our smallest pieces down to the cell, right? And the little things inside the cell, how they're working to create that energy. And we know from the research that any dip in mitochondrial function or cellular energy creates A dip in that function, wherever those mitochondria are, right?

So if they're in the ovary, the uterus, the vaginal canal, if they're in the adrenal glands, the thyroid, wherever those cells are, the mitochondria have to be working at an optimal level for us to. feel whatever it is that organ is supposed to be doing, right? If it's hormones to have optimal hormone level, if it's creating that cortisol and energy from the adrenal glands, then absolutely.

It'll be that energy for the day. If it's, uh, our digestive function, I mean, you name it, wherever it is, we want those mitochondria to be working at their optimal level. . Yeah. And mitochondria are kind of like the energy centers or the ener energy warehouses of our body of, and they're in every cell.

What's really cool is that our reproductive systems have 200 times the mitochondria as anywhere else in the body. So essentially like, just based on that, we can assume that mitochondrial health is extremely important to fertility. Oh, absolutely. Yep. It's foundational. And it's not, it's not only like you said, the reproductive organs and how they're working and like the growth of a fetus, but it's, it's all of that, right?

Because our mitochondria are the first, Starting point for pregnenolone and pregnenolone is that master hormone that gets shunted into our sex hormones, our estrogen and testosterone and progesterone. And if that isn't adequate, then our hormones aren't where they need to be for us to be having optimal fertility.

So, I mean, I can't. Think of a thing, a function in the body, a tissue or an organ or a biological process that doesn't require our mitochondria to be working. Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about some of the things that maybe are obstructing mitochondrial function or things that can support that. the improvement of mitochondrial function.

Oh yeah, absolutely. This is a huge field of research, right? And, and so let's talk about sort of the foundations, the, the low hanging fruit, the things that are easy for people to, um, start utilizing, right? So our light environment. Is a huge piece of our mitochondrial function. And when I talk about light environment, we as humans nowadays, we have two, right?

We have like, I have these sliding glass doors and natural windows behind me, or actually in front of me that are creating this natural light environment from the sun. But I also have these ring lights and all this artificial lighting in front of me. Um, Yeah. And so we really have that, that dual input of the natural light and the artificial light.

And so it's all about fine tuning that because we know that the artificial light in our environment is a very small spectrum of blue. So if we're looking at the electromagnetic spectrum. It is wide, from like gamma rays and microwaves, through the UV, into the visible spectrum, and then into infrared, um, and, and on.

And the visible spectrum is just a very small spectrum, the visible spectrum that we see, right, all these beautiful colors around us. It's a very small sliver. Of that spectrum, and our artificial lighting is even smaller. It's a very narrow band of blue light. It's not even the full spectrum of blue light, right?

And so this blue light actually Spaces the proteins in the mitochondria further apart. So how do we create energy in the mitochondria? We have electrons and we shuttle them down the electron transport chain. And when they get to the end of that chain, they make ATP, that energy source, that energy currency of the body.

And so if those proteins aren't close enough, What these electrons are doing is they're tunneling, they're quantum tunneling from protein to protein down the chain. And if those proteins are too far apart, they can't do that efficiently. And we don't make as much ATP, then we have that decrease in mitochondrial function.

And then we have that decrease in whatever that those mitochondria are in, the ovaries or whatever, right? And so When we're talking about our light environment, that blue light that we get from our screens is important to understand that it can space those proteins further apart. So we need to balance it with some of that full spectrum light.

And so, like I just said, I have natural light coming in here. I've got my lights set up around me, all these, uh, you know, Unnatural light, you know, man made light, artificial light. And if I had a spectrometer where I was measuring this, we would see that the spectrum's really low, even though I have all these lights and I can pull in a red light and a blue light and a green light and the actual colored lights, still the spectrum would stay really.

But if I took that meter outside, even, you know, I'm here in the Pacific Northwest and it's a cloudy gray day. Like it is for months here in the winter. I was wondering if it was, we saw the sun the other day and it was like, ah, we've missed you.

That reads a lot. So I get it. Yeah, totally. Absolutely. But even on those gray days, if I take that meter out, the spectrum, the bandwidth is so much bigger than in the artificial light. So what I talk with people a lot about is getting that natural light. And when the sun rises, it's giving us a lot of red and orange light, and that's so beneficial for the body.

It's beneficial for our mitochondria and then it raises into the UV spectrum, right? And of course we want to be careful and safe with that. We don't want to get sunburn and damage our skin, but getting that, uh, natural light in our eyes, whether that's taking your break outside, eating lunch outside, that can be huge for.

Our fertility for our hormones, for our inflammation, and then when that sun goes down, lowering the lights around us is really important. And so many of us, um, have lives that we've set up where we do have to have that artificial lighting at night. So wearing something like blue light blocking glasses are really important.

Uh, but I try You know, my, my kids are so used to their strange mother when the sun goes down here, I try to have us all transition to like incandescent lights or orange lights. And what that does is when we get that morning natural light from the sun. It dumps our cortisol so that we have energy, our dopamine, our serotonin, all of these neurotransmitters, so that we feel well.

And it sets up a hormonal cascade. And then when we lower the lights at night, that serotonin from the morning Gets converted into melatonin so that it's acting as an antioxidant and going through and scavenging damaged cells and repairing. We see an increase in growth hormone, an increase in thyroid hormones.

It's this diurnal rhythm, right? We're meant to be, um, living by the rhythm of the sun. So making sure that we're balancing our artificial light. with natural light in the morning throughout the day. And then lowering that light at night can be so, uh, incredibly impactful for our fertility journey. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. So really like balancing out that like cortisol and melatonin or that circadian rhythm. And, um, I remember seeing a few research studies that. Essentially are suggesting that the production of melatonin in our bodies is not the same as taking a supplement of melatonin. Yeah, absolutely.

It, it really is important that we're facilitating the That natural production, because it's tied to so many things. I think the last review I looked at, it was like 253 different, you know, enzymes and cascades that melatonin is interacting with. So we think of that like, okay, it helps us sleep at night.

It helps us repair. It helps scavenge damage, which it absolutely does. But there's also 250 other things that it's doing. in the body, right? Yeah. Yeah. And absolutely. And fertility is one of those areas where uh, melatonin is probably one of the most powerful antioxidants. And um, it has, there's really good research on fertility and melatonin.

So really like optimizing the production of our own melatonin is optimal. If you need to supplement, supplement. But if you're not Really, like having your body produce this in an adequate amount is ideal. Absolutely. You are spot on. Um, I completely agree. And, and the best way to do that, um, is to be mindful of our light environment because that's the biggest stimulus of our melatonin rhythm, right?

So something as easy as just being able to, Being conscious of like, Oh my gosh, I've been inside all day and I need to go outside and get that full spectrum light. Or I need to start my mornings with a little bit of natural light. Or I need to turn down the lights at night or put on my blockers or put on my like, um, blue light blockers on my devices.

You know, there's so many different options. It's not expensive. It's accessible and it has a huge impact just like you were saying. Yeah. Yeah. Do you like those, um, like salt lamps or whatever they call them with the rocks? I do. I have one right behind me. And, um, you know, they say a lot of different benefits about them, but I'm not 100 percent sold on all those benefits, right?

But the one I am sold on is the beautiful light it creates. It's It's, um, not stimulating. So even the red lights, right, can be kind of stimulating to our biology. And at night, we just want, uh, we want to turn on that chill phase, right? We want to get ready for bed, even if it's a few hours before, right? We want to really create that environment.

And I think salt lamps are wonderful for that just because of the light that they give off. Right? Mm hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Since we're on the topic of light, uh, are there any, like, therapeutic lights? Uh, like, a lot of people are, have probably heard of, like, red light therapy. Um, Yeah. Are there, uh, are there ones that you love?

Absolutely. There's some wonderful, um, manufacturers out there that are doing really great work with their red light devices. They are the ones that will have some of the research published on their website. And whenever I get asked about products, that's sort of my go to answer is like, if it's a reputable company and they're, um, Being successful they will have done some research and it costs money to do that So that will be on their website, right?

So loom box juve. There's so many brands out there that are doing a great job with um Really dialing in the frequencies, right? So I was talking a little bit about that band of electromagnetic Spectrum and that's what light is, right? And so when we're talking about what we see we're going from like the blue the Violets blues green yellow orange red and then into infrared and a lot of the red and infrared spectrum and we're talking from You know that red light Um, from like 680 to 800 ish, you know, it's a spectrum nanometers.

And that means the length of the wave. And that's important because the different blinks of waves impact our body differently. And so the longer. Uh, waves up in the 800 and into the infrared range, which gets much, much longer in wavelength. Those go in and they directly impact our mitochondrial function, just like we've been talking about, right?

Um, how important that is for our fertility and for our overall health. And so what you want to make sure of when you're looking into a red light therapy device or an infrared light. therapy device is that spectrum. And there's been a lot of research in those different, like 680, 820, um, some of the higher, you know, thousand range spectrum of infrared light and those machines, if they are doing it properly, they will list what.

Wavelength they're using in nanometers, right? And M's, right? And so that's what that means. You know, 680 N M. It's like, okay, I know this is going to impact my mitochondrial function. And so anything in that range is going to be beneficial for our mitochondrial function. And so when I'm talking with people about that, That's something that's really important is to make sure that whatever device you're working with has been shown to, um, have a certain kind of wavelength.

Yeah. Yeah. So the range is 620 to 760, did you say, or the 820 range? Yeah, absolutely. So it's it's about 600 to 800 right for that red light. And then a little bit further for that infrared, right? The infrared can, um, reach a little bit deeper into the body. So those wavelengths are a little bit longer into the thousands.

And so that range of red light and infrared light both. impact our mitochondrial function. They actually increase those electrons going down the chain, right? They make it much more efficient, creating more ATP and energy currency. So they can be really effective. Yeah. Yeah. I love them. Uh, what about lasers?

What do you think about laser as a, um, light therapy ish? Yeah, absolutely. Like, um, low level, uh, laser light therapy can be really helpful. Absolutely. Um, there's so many different ones out there and, uh, you know, post electro magnetic frequencies. There's so many different, um, devices out there that can be really targeted for.

You know what? We're looking to target and impact and improve. And I think, honestly, that the research that's been coming out in the last couple decades really exciting and points to sort of a new future in in health care where We're not having to take so many things orally, so many chemical compounds, whether it's pharmaceutical or natural, there's this underlying mechanism of light and how the body works with light.

So it's fascinating. Yeah. Love it. I love it. Are there any other things that are kind of this impacting the quantum biology as far as tools or therapeutics that you find really helpful in shifting how the mitochondria function and how to optimize that function? Yeah, you know, I think that when we're talking about mitochondria, um, Just a little step back in understanding that the, the dominant theory out there is that our mitochondria came from a symbiosis with bacteria, and we know clearly from the research that there's this crosstalk between our mitochondria and bacteria.

And the microbiome, those bacteria that live within us in our gut, in our vaginal canal, in our uterus. So there's this, um, beautiful relationship that's happening there from a quantum biological perspective, where these, um, microbes are giving off Um, metabolites that mm-Hmm influence the mitochondria to work more efficiently to adapt to their environment.

So I think that the relationship between the microbiomes, um, will say ss because we know everything has a microbiome. Right? . Yeah. Yeah. Um, and the mitochondria are really important. Um. And looking from a quantum biological perspective, they influence that production of ATP with the flow of electrons and protons.

They serve as messengers, right? Our mitochondria. Aren't just producing energy. They're actually like these little antenna. They get messages from the microbiome and then they send out messages like reactive, oxidative species, reactive nitrogen species, nitric oxide, um, works in tandem with the mitochondria.

So it's this. Beautiful sort of messaging system where they're getting these signals and then emitting signals. So everything in the body knows what's happening. And so having a, uh, microbiome that is What we evolved with, what we're meant to have, that balanced microbiome is really important for mitochondrial function.

Yeah, so there is so much research in terms of the reproductive microbiome and the impact that it has on fertility and you said microbiomes and it's literally there's at least five. I think maybe closer to seven microbiomes that are unique to different parts of our reproductive system. It's wild, so wild.

Uh, and it's, it's cool because it's kind of the cutting edge of fertility right now. But from this, like, I feel like you have this deeper aspect of the interplay between the microbiomes and the mitochondria. So, In your, uh, experience, what are the impacts of this on fertility. Yeah, absolutely. So when we're talking about this, you know, sometimes I get in this habit of like the mitochondria are like way over here, but we have to realize that they're right there.

In the vaginal tract, right? So the cells of the vaginal tract have mitochondria in them. The cells of the uterus have mitochondria in them. The ovaries, I mean, all these different pieces have mitochondria in those cells. And the microbiome It's balanced, right, is predominantly a lactobacillus environment, um, like in the vaginal tract and the, the uterine, um, the uterus, the uterine lining.

And what that's doing is it's decreasing that pH so that, um, Disbiotic overgrowths can't happen, right? So that microbiomes that are less friendly to fertility don't happen. They decrease that, uh, pH so that that implantation can happen, right? So that that is something that's favorable. Because when we see, um, a really low pH, we see that that, uh, Implantation is harder and not successful, right?

We also see that it's creating this inflammatory cascade. So if we don't have the right flora there, then it's creating those inflammatory metabolites that go to the mitochondria and say like, okay, you need to slow down your energy production, which is not what we want. So you've got this Sort of multi layered, um, impact happening there, where you've got the pH that's impacting the health, the fertility of, um, implantation, as well as the growth of the fetus, right?

As well as, you know, even after birth, when we give birth, that vaginal and uterine microbiome helps. seed are, and that helps set up, uh, health for them for a lifetime. So you see it from, you know, preconception to conception, to pregnancy, to sort of that fourth trimester after we've given birth to these beautiful babies and how that impacts their life, it's this, matter of what the microbes themselves are doing with the things they're creating, the metabolites they're creating, the cytokines and inflammatory cascades that they're influencing in the body, as well as the crosstalk with the mitochondria.

If we don't have adequate mitochondria working in those fertility organs and tissues, then it makes so much more difficult. So it's this really dynamic relationship and crosstalk happening between the two. Yeah. And it's, it's just like so fun when we see this all like, How it all fits together, right?

Like, it's the interplay between all of these things is just so cool. Are there any other, um, therapies that you love or want to highlight that are connected to this? um, quantum biology. I'm sure there's so many, but. Yeah, you know, I think that, um, thinking about feeding the microbiome in, in those areas, in the vaginal tract and the uterus and all those different Um, organs that and tissues that we use to get pregnant and for our fertility.

I really think that understanding the relationship between those microbiomes and the gut microbiome are really important, right? And that brings up those ideas of eating fiber, eating a diverse Diet of vegetables and fruit, those colors, um, not to get too technical, but those colors that we're eating, they have these hexagons in them.

They have these benzene rings, and these benzene rings create communication. Between the food that we're eating, the mitochondria there, the microbiome there, then that transfers to the microbiome and mitochondria in those fertility areas that we're talking about. So it's this beautiful system of, um, quantum communication that's underpinning all of this process.

Communication. And so I think that really looking at our overall microbiome health and one of the easiest ways to do that is what what we're eating, even when we're talking about the vaginal microbiome, right? That is really being seeded by that gastrointestinal microbiome. Talking about dialing in our light environment like we did is really important for that fertility conversation to happen between the microbiome and the mitochondria and something that a lot of us don't think about but is also really important when we're looking at it from a quantum biological lens is the impact of our thoughts and emotions.

There's a frequency there. In our thoughts and emotions that impacts our mitochondrial function And so whenever I start talking about emotions, I always like to give a disclaimer that that we're human, right? We're meant to have all the emotions. We're meant to have fear and anger and frustration grief these emotions that like in mainstream Um psychology or are deemed sort of negative emotions, right?

but I think that uh, our society is really Uncomfortable with some of these bigger emotions and especially when we're talking about fertility and being a mother a pregnant woman, it's Or someone going through that fertility journey having those feelings Is normal, right? And what we see in the research is that these ruminating feelings, if we let them linger, we stuff them away.

So they're not addressed. Those can decrease our mitochondrial function all throughout the body. And so understanding that At such a vulnerable period in our life, right? Where we are, um, dealing with these big emotions, understanding that making space for them, inviting them in, as strange as that sounds, you know, being mindful and okay with some of the emotions.

And of course, love and gratitude. and joy and contentment are wonderful for her mitochondrial function and overall health, right? But those other emotions, those big, more scary emotions or less, um, approved of by society also have a place if we can invite them in and let them work their way through us, right?

And so those Types of practices, whether it's making space for an uncomfortable emotion or cultivating a gratitude practice or a practice where we take account of the things we love in our environment, all of those different things actually have an effect on this quantum flow of energy through the mitochondria.

So that's something that, um, I always like to talk to people about because I've never seen a patient who isn't dealing with some kind of sense of, you know, lack of safety or lack of belonging, or I have this big emotion. I don't know what to do with it. So I stuffed it down or I shoved it on that person or, you know, whatever it may be.

And just sort of, Walking with them, holding space for them, allowing them to be with those emotions, both, you know, quote, unquote, good or quote, unquote, bad, really allows our mitochondria to function optimally, and really has an impact on that fertility journey. Oh, thank you for that reminder. I think it's just so vital because We kind of like tend to focus on one aspect really strongly and then forget the other, but really like we're integrated humans and integrated with the microbiomes, I should say, uh, but like all of these things are interplaying off of each other all of the time.

So, so important to think of us as a whole rather than like, Oh, I'm focusing on my diet or I'm detoxing or I'm doing this. I'm doing that. It's really like the comprehensive approach that is going to transform people's fertility journeys faster. I feel. Absolutely. Beautifully said. Absolutely. It's that, that whole person approach and the splintering off of like the, the diet and this and that, um, can be helpful.

But I think the real medicine comes from the relationships we cultivate, right? So like when I was sick, I was diagnosed with a couple autoimmune conditions and Lyme disease. And this started as a checklist, like, okay, morning light. Okay. Lower the lights. Okay. Get outside and this diet and like do my checklist, you know?

But after years, it turned into this relationship where I feel a sense of belonging and safety when the sun rises and sets, I feel that safety in the relationship I have with the natural world and the, and the earth beneath my feet or. The people in my life or the food that I'm choosing, you know, all, all of those relationships or the relationship I have with my inner dialogue, I'm much more accepting.

And I sort of recognize, Oh, that's that piece that wants me to slow down, right? It's not like, Oh, not the anxiety again. It's like, Oh, hello, you're here again to, to remind me of some things, right? And so these relationships we cultivate are the real men. I love that. Thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom.

I feel my nervous system relaxing as we talk. So I can feel like that what you're talking about flows through you. So thank you for just being an amazing human and for joining me. Oh, well, thank you so much for having me and thank you for doing the work that you're doing. Your work are so important. So I'm grateful for you and an honor to be here today.

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