290 - The Mid-Season Round Table 15 - The EV Musings Podcast

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I remember Sam Clark from GridServe raised it at one point when we often share stats on

the number of hubs that are around the UK and how that's grown.

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And he raised a point that said, you know, we are seeing that growth and that's fantastic.

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What about the size of the hubs?

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How many EV chargers, how many cars can charge in those hubs?

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How's that changing?

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I can't start and stop a Tesla charge without using the Tesla app.

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So that's kind of...

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built in And for those pedantics who are listening, unless I'm using the V4 Tesla

supercharger that has the card reader on it, I do understand that,

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That's over 160 apps that ideally a person should have on their phone at the same time in

order for them to charge at any point, anywhere, just in the UK.

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We're not even talking about Europe.

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Hi, I'm Gary and this is episode 290 of EV Musings, a podcast about renewables, electric

vehicles and things that are interesting to electric vehicle owners.

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And on the show today, it's the mid-season round table episode.

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Now, before we start, I do want to remind you about the sister podcast I do called the

Commercial EV Musings podcast.

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It's B2B focused and we've got some great discussions on there with companies like Amplify

EV, TransitionWise,

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and soon to be released, Valor Power.

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You can find that on YouTube at evmusings.com slash commercial.

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Once you've listened to this show, if you enjoyed it, a like, a comment or a subscribe

would be most appreciated.

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Thank you.

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So welcome to episode 290 of the podcast.

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As usual, I've got some specially invited guests.

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We'll discuss important matters in the EV space and when we put the world to rights, we'll

continue with the next topic.

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And as this is the mid-season episode, have two guests.

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The three guests are reserved for the end of season episode, both of whom have great

topics to discuss.

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So let me introduce them.

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From podcast sponsors Zapmap, we have Jade Edwards, who is the head of insights there.

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Jade is a past guest on the show, having appeared on episode 192, the data insights

episode.

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Welcome, Jade.

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Hi Gary, nice to be here.

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Thank you for joining us.

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I'm also joined today by Victoria Hutton, is a marketing expert specializing in the EV and

mobility sector.

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Victoria worked on the digital ecosystem supporting the launch of Polestar's first

electric vehicles and later led digital marketing at InstaVolt, one of the UK's largest

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public charging networks.

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Welcome, Victoria.

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Hello, Gary.

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Hello, Jade.

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Thank you very much for having me.

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So let's get right into it.

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Now, this is the point where I hand the show over to one of you to introduce your topic.

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And today I think we'll start with Jade.

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So what are we discussing today, Jade?

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Yeah, so what I thought we could discuss today was that recently we've updated the way

that we count the number of EV chargers in the UK and that's something that Zapmap has

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done in conjunction with the Department for Transport so the official statistics that the

government use and that are published on the growth of the charging network are now

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reflecting a slightly different count than they were previously.

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Wonderful.

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So my opening question on this is why?

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What is it giving us that we didn't have before?

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Yeah, so why we've changed it is that originally, when Zapmap and then the Department for

Transport started reporting on how many EV chargers were out there in the UK, there was no

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set way of doing that.

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And there wasn't really a lot of data that was being shared across the industry.

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They started in about 2014 with this.

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So it really was, you know, really sort of early in the transition and in that rollout.

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And so at the time, there were two ways that you could really think about it.

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You could think about the number of connectors that there were.

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So there was a CHAdeMO connector, there was a CCS connector, there was a Type 2 connector.

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So you could count up all those connectors across the UK and use that number.

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Or you could look at the number of chargers that were out there and physically the kind of

the boxes and the housing, which is Zapmap called the devices, and you could count those.

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and at the time it was felt that if you tried to count all those individual connectors,

you'd vastly overestimate the number of cars that would actually be able to charge.

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And so really that kind of provision would have been over counted.

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So at the time, Zapmap and the Department of Transport decided to count the devices, the

kind of number of boxes that were out there.

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So that's what's been counted to date.

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The change is that as OCPI has become a ingrained within the charge point industry as a

way of the charge point operators sharing their data with platforms like Zapmap, OCPI

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includes what is termed an EVSE, electric vehicle supply equipment.

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That's a well-known term in the industry.

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It's not a nice, friendly term for the general public, for EV drivers.

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So we call it EV Chargers.

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But basically,

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this EVSE or EV charger is what controls the charge session with a car.

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And that data is now being shared with Zapmap with other EMSPs and across the industry.

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And so moving to count those rather than the devices or the connectors is the best way of

representing how many cars can actually charge simultaneously across the UK.

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It's not perfect.

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but it's the best way there is at the moment.

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So Victoria, I know you can't speak in detail about some of the things at InstaVolt, but I

know you were involved in the Winchester Super Hub where they've put 44 uh chargers in

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there, but some of those were dual headed ones, Chademo and CCS.

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Do you recall off the top of your head, are they able to charge two vehicles at the same

time or is it CCS or Chademo?

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It is CCS or Chademo.

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So essentially one charger would provide the charging for one car at a time, either

through CCS connection or through the Chademo.

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But I think just to add on a point that Jade was making, I think it's great that the

changes are happening.

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However, from a marketing perspective, I guess I have a question to Jade.

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And for me, it's always been a bit strange to market the chargers

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from the charger perspective rather than from the location.

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So consumer obviously, first of all, trying to find where the location of the charger

exists and then find how many chargers available there to estimate whether they will be

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able to charge when they arrive or if they're not gonna be able to charge.

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So my question is, why do we count individual chargers versus location?

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on top of why we have to charge

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The chargers is because some of the sites will be upgraded and some of them will be

downgraded and you constantly then have to refresh the number of EVSE connectors.

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And that is a lot of work to keep up to date with the numbers.

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Yeah, really good question.

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So on the first point, why not count locations?

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We do count locations as well because it is a really important metric.

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But you do want to try and reflect how many, when you're talking about the actual size of

the overall provision, you do really want to try and reflect as much as possible and how

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many cars would that actually enable to charge?

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And the difference between the number of locations that have got

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just one charger because maybe that's an on-street location and that counts as one versus

something like the Winchester Hub.

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You know, you'd be, it's not apples with apples.

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So trying to go down to the EV charger level tries to give you a consistent base in which

to count them all equally.

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But we always talk about how that's split through on.

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route charging, destination charging on street, we always talk about that split and the

split by the power rating because it does make a huge difference, know, not every charger

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is equal in those terms.

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So I think that's really important.

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And then I've forgotten the second part of the question.

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I don't know, what was the part Victoria?

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the second part, Victoria?

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And I can answer that part.

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trying to recall now as well, actually.

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While you're thinking about that, can I just ask a of a related marketing question?

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What sort of marketing or education is Zapmap doing on these changes out to the general

public?

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Because as far as a lot of people are concerned, had whatever it was, 80 odd thousand

places that you could charge.

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Now it seems we've got 120,000 places that you can charge.

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And that could be confusing for some people.

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What education has been done to help people understand the differences?

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So we've, as part of our stats page that we update every month, we've created an explainer

page that links off that main page to talk about the differences and what's changed.

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The DFT put out a press release that talked about some of these changes and they've done a

really good set of FAQs that are linked to the official statistics.

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When you download that data, you can also download these FAQs where they've tried to

explain

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all the different aspects and the changes and that seems to have landed quite well.

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As Zapmap we are just bringing this language and this change into all the comms that we do

going forwards.

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We're updating all our guides and all the pages on the website and so everything we put

out we're doing that way and we've also been trying to get the rest of the industry on

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board as well so that we can kind of all do this together.

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and just help make sure that when the media are picking stories up, when they're writing

about things, we're all giving them the same kind of terminology and the same messages

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because it's the consistency that's the key.

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And that's why, you know, we wanted to make this change in step with the government and in

sharing it with other industry partners because it is the consistency's key.

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Otherwise it just gets more confusing again.

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That makes sense.

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Do have a question, Victoria?

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Yeah, I think on the, on the subject of consistency, the second part was obviously you

have to update the EVEC data quite regularly to keep that consistency, but charging

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providers sometimes reduce the number of chargers at a location as well as add.

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For example, Banbury Gary, would know started as a few chargers and now has got over 30

chargers at that location.

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And that location grew over a few years.

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And it kind of feels like you making obviously your work a little bit harder as well from

that perspective.

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Yeah, well, I think that's exactly why we're doing it.

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It's because if we didn't count at the EV charger level, we'd miss the fact that a lot of

these locations are getting better and better.

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I remember Sam Clark from GridServe raised it at one point when we often share stats on

the number of hubs that are around the UK and how that's grown.

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And he raised a point that said, you know, we are seeing that growth and that's fantastic.

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What about the size of the hubs?

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How many EV chargers, how many cars can charge in those hubs?

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How's that changing?

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And actually we see that grow as well, because as you say, there's lots of projects to

increase the provision at key sites.

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So that is, know, yes, it's a harder job than reporting on the number of locations, but we

have that data.

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We need that data to be accurate in Zapmap.

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and to help EV drivers.

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so for us, it's why not share that at that level and to reflect all the amazing work

that's going on from the Chargepoint industry.

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And I think I want to sort of loop back to something you said earlier.

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You mentioned OCPI, which is the Open Charge Point Interface, I believe, as opposed to

OCPP, which is the open charge point protocol.

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So OCPI is what you're using to gather some of this data, is that correct?

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So does every charger in the UK adhere to the OCPI standard?

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Not everything, no.

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The vast majority, and it's moving more and more and more, we can still cope with other

APIs that are OCPI format, but yeah, it's absolutely the way it's going.

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And the public charge point regulations say that any charge point operator that meets the

criteria has to use OCPI to provide data.

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So yeah.

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It's very, very rare now that we've got something still that's not OCPI.

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Okay.

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And are you able to talk about what changes have been made to the Zapmap app?

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Try saying that three times quickly to accommodate the updates that you've talked about.

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So on the app, most of those changes are following on from the changes that we've made on

the stats page and with the official statistics.

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So there's lots of other work that's going on with the app that they will sort of flow

through as we go forward.

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The big thing that we've changed on the app recently is showing the price markers.

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So there's obviously been a lot of focus on that because that was felt as a...

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really high priority for drivers to be able to start seeing and surfacing that

information.

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So that went to the top of the queue.

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Okay.

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And one of the things that I think I alluded to earlier when I was talking to Victoria

about the CHADMO CCS, one of the things that, and I'm not picking on Zatmod because I

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think this happens on other services that define the number of chargers that are

available.

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It used to be that if there was one charger that had one EVSE and two cables,

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If one of those cables was being used, the other one was shown as available on certain

apps.

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So, you know, if a CCS charger was being used, if the CCS cable was being used, somebody

like me who used to have a Kia Soul that had Chattemo, I go, all right, I could charge

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there.

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But of course I can't because there's only one EVSE.

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So do we know if that kind of availability metric or posh word of the day, heuristic, is

being captured correctly within

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Zapmap and within the other Roman services that use that.

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Yeah, it does depend on the different chargement operators can send to that differently.

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So it does depend on how it's sent, but there are lots where what they're trying to move

more towards is that if it is being controlled by one EV charger, that you'll get the

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charging on one of those connectors and then you'll get the not available on the other

one.

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So it's definitely trying to be clearer on that and we have seen that and we do see that

on a lot of CPOs and the way that the data comes through to us.

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Do you have any more questions on this, Victoria, before we move on?

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No, no questions.

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Fantastic.

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Any closing comments, Jade?

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In comments, would say that the industry has developed so much over the past few years

that this was one of those key changes that really helps us to measure the UK's progress

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better with international standards so that we're more consistent with how we measure

things and other countries do as well.

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So I think it was really important for that perspective as well.

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and hopefully everybody seems to be getting behind it and we've made that sort shift

change which was the difficult part.

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Now we can just continue to see how that kind of beds in.

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My personal opinion on this is it's a move in the right direction.

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It's absolutely what we need.

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It gives more accurate, more up-to-date information and that's got to be good for the end

user.

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So, appreciate that.

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Thank you very much, Jade.

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% agree as well.

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100 % agree.

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It's definitely a move towards the right direction.

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Now, Victoria, over to you.

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What's your topic of discussion?

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Thanks, Gary.

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Well, I guess as a digital marketeer or person who specializes in digital with everything

online on their phone as well, it came to my attention that there are more and more apps

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being developed for people to charge.

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We currently have got 150 charging operators.

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In addition to this, we have got roaming partners.

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In addition to this, we also have got car manufacturers that are also very keen to produce

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their own app to allow people to charge their cars when they arrive to the charging

location.

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That's over 160 apps that ideally a person should have on their phone at the same time in

order for them to charge at any point, anywhere, just in the UK.

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We're not even talking about Europe.

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My view from marketing perspective is in this particular instance, the user experience

should be prioritized.

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it needs to be easier because the number of apps that everyone has to download and then

obviously register there is just becoming ridiculous.

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I do however understand why brands are still very keen to develop their apps, but I would

really like to hear what you guys think on this topic.

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Now I have my own opinion on this and I'm happy to share that in a short while.

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But Jade, I want you to open on this if you wouldn't mind.

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Yeah, I think it is an interesting question.

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think I can understand why Chargepoint operators want to have an app because they want to

be able to kind of own the customer in those kind of marketing terms and be able to really

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understand their customers, understand who's charging with them and therefore develop

their services to better meet their needs.

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So I do understand that.

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However, I think as you say, from a customer perspective,

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When you have got a wide variety of ChargePoint operators that you could be visiting, it

doesn't make sense to have all these separate apps.

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What we're trying to do at Zapmap and other EMSPs are trying to do is say, actually, if we

put all these in one place in one app, we enable you to pay for those ChargePoints via

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that app.

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then you've got that choice, you can make those decisions about actually where are you

going to charge and we can give you that variety of information about all these different

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providers.

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And that's part of us adding in the pricing view is because then people, that's what they

want to make the choice on, they're able to do that.

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And that's really what the customer wants is different ways of making a decision about

where they're going to charge depending on what's most important to them at the time.

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And the other piece I think is that there's lots of things that a ChargePoint operator

should be good at doing and should really focus on being excellent at.

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Building and running an app feels like that doesn't need to be something that they're

spending their time and their efforts on.

220

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There are providers like Zapmap who that is what we do.

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It is about building and providing an app.

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And so I feel like that.

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do what your strengths lie and where you can make the biggest difference to the end

customer.

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100%.

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And if I had the graphics, I'd be going, yay, because I totally agree with what you're

saying there.

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It basically comes down to there's a choice that every ChargePoint operator has to make.

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it's do we make this the easiest it can be for the customer or do we make this the easiest

it can be for the ChargePoint operator?

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And it's, know, I like to play.

229

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I'm known for playing devil's advocate on this.

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So, you know, I'm looking at this and I'm saying, right, I'm a ChargePoint operator.

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And to me,

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The best thing for me as a company is to get as much data as I can from all my customers.

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And I may use that to make the service for the customer better, or I may not.

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I may use that for other internal purposes or even sell it onto third party companies.

235

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We know that happens.

236

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So the question then is,

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Why as a charge point operator, if you're looking at customers as being the source of your

income, why are you not making it as easy as you can for them?

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Why don't you put in plug and charge?

239

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Why don't you look at things that will decrease the pricing?

240

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Why don't you put canopies on charge points?

241

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That sort of thing.

242

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But no, a lot of them are very much more focused on saying, right, no, we've got this app

and this app will allow you to locate the charger and it will allow you to pay for the

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charger.

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and you know you might even get a discount.

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Fine.

246

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As you say, Jay, there are other apps, yours included, which will do exactly the same

thing.

247

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So you've got a duplication that's giving no benefit to the customer.

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Plus, and you've probably seen this on social media, whenever you go on there, new EV

driver, first time they go to a public charger.

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How do I start this?

250

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What's up there?

251

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Download our app.

252

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And then underneath it goes, well, you can use a

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Contactless card.

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So they're pushing.

255

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went to, I saw one EV point a couple of years ago now.

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It literally had four QR codes on the front of the unit to download the app to make that.

257

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Just one little thing at the bottom saying, and you can use contactless.

258

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Four QR codes versus one contactless.

259

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So what's the new EV driver going to do?

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They're going to download that app and then they're to go to the next CPO.

261

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Same thing.

262

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And as you say, Victoria, they're to end up with 150 different apps.

263

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But I think Niall Ridell from PAUA I think he's up to about 200 on his phone.

264

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If you ever see him, ask him to scroll through all the EV apps that he's got on his phone.

265

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It's fantastic.

266

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So yes, to me, it's the ChargePoint operators focusing on the wrong thing.

267

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They're focusing on what they can get from the customer rather than what they can give to

the customer.

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Does that make sense?

269

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Definitely makes sense to me.

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And I agree with both of you.

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From my perspective, when I was investigating the benefits and downsides of having the

app, obviously there are benefits as data, as we have talked about it, but unfortunately,

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if you don't have a very good CRM system in place, then the data that you're receiving

can't really be used very well because you still have to have somebody who will analyze

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the data, they will segment it.

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then they will pass it to marketeers like me to actually make use out of it.

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And quite often in startup or scale up companies, there is just not enough budget.

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mean, Jade, you probably know developing an app is very cost inefficient unless it's your

prime income source.

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So from that perspective, I think spending a huge amount of money to develop an app and

make it secure and make it very user friendly, et cetera, et cetera.

278

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is not the best way to invest the money.

279

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However, I do have a question for you, Jade, because you have mentioned a couple of things

that really was interesting.

280

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First thing you said Zapmap is trying to develop a one app to go to.

281

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Why do you say trying?

282

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Is that something that you have proposed to CPS already?

283

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And if you have received...

284

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reservation from their site?

285

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Would you be able to share what sorts of reservations you come across most of the time?

286

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No, so I think what I mean is that we at the moment have got, well, as we've shared on the

numbers of the EV chargers, about 118,000 EV chargers showing on Zapmap, which is pretty

287

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much all of the ones in the UK.

288

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And then about 80,000 of those you can pay at using the Zapmap app or the RFID card.

289

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So,

290

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it's about increasing that coverage.

291

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That's what we're trying to do is increase that coverage as much as possible so that that

EV driver who is new doesn't worry about downloading all different apps.

292

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They download Zapmap and then that serves their needs for how when they're then trying to

choose which and where to go to charge.

293

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So I think it's just about developing that really.

294

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And then you will have, you know, we have competition on that and that's absolutely fine.

295

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You would want in the market is you want.

296

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a few providers that are working hard to compete against each other and bring out the best

features, give the best service they can to EV drivers to win them over to using their

297

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app.

298

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And then the EV drivers are getting a great service.

299

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They've got choice, but they've not, they're not overwhelmed with having to download so

many different things.

300

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They can make some choices through a limited number of providers who are really competing

hard to make sure they're developing the best stuff.

301

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So hypothetically, should you be able or Zapmap, not you, should Zapmap be able to become,

let's say a Google of charging operators, location, navigation, and paying for it?

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The question is, if the rest of the CPOs, for example, will say, okay, we are giving up on

our app, we just want to make sure there is the best experience for the user, what do we

303

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do with the data?

304

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How can then CPOs remove that thoughts about, my God but what about my data?

305

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I need my data, I need to know about the customer.

306

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Is that something that Zapmap would like to share with everyone openly as well as with

individual CPOs as well as like the other CPOs?

307

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What's your thinking about that, Jade?

308

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Yeah, so I mean, that's my job is I'm, I head up Zapmap Insights.

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So my job is to go, okay, with the data that is out there and that we can access via the

app, what should we do with it in order to help the industry progress and who needs that

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data to help them provide a better service for EV drivers?

311

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That's the kind of loop we have at Zapmap.

312

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So yeah, absolutely.

313

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It's about going at the moment we have products and services.

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based on the data that flows into us that helps the ChargePoint operators develop.

315

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And we always look into how we enhance those, bring in new services, and yeah, basically

create that ecosystem of making sure the data is available where it needs to be.

316

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With all the obvious restrictions about what we can or can't share, at the moment we don't

share anything that's to do with EV drivers.

317

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themselves through the app.

318

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It's not their data.

319

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It's the data that the Chargepoint operators send to us via OCPI.

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That's what our products and services are around.

321

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But as we move into the future, it will be looking at what else should we do that helps

everybody in the best way.

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I've got to jump in here because again, I've got to put my devil's advocate hat on there.

323

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If we get to that situation a number of years down the line where Zapmap is the preeminent

app that everybody uses and the ChargePoint operator apps have diminished down to a much

324

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lower number, if you're gathering all that data on behalf of the ChargePoint operators,

are you going to be giving it to them or are you going to be selling it to them?

325

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Well, most likely we'd be selling it because at the end of the day, we are a commercial

business and we charge very little to EV drivers and we always want to have a free app for

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EV drivers.

327

00:25:50,866 --> 00:25:59,823

So that is a core kind of piece within the company is about making sure we are helping EV

drivers and we're on their side.

328

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Chargepoint operators are our major stakeholders and our partners and we work with them

really collaboratively.

329

00:26:06,070 --> 00:26:08,030

But you've to balance the books, haven't you?

330

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We're going to be constantly developing an app that adds real value to Chargepoint

operators because what we want is that the app works so well for EV drivers that it's

331

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driving up demand for Chargepoint operators.

332

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They'll be very happy the more we're pushing utilization of their chargers.

333

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So it's about that balance.

334

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We have to work that balance out as we go and we always do that really collaboratively

with the charge point operators.

335

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I have a, notwithstanding what I've said earlier on about playing devil's advocate and

saying that, know, CPO shouldn't really have apps for every single one of them.

336

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I will put my hand up and say, there are a couple of CPO apps that I do currently use.

337

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And there's a couple of reasons why I use them.

338

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One is primarily due to pricing.

339

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There are a number of

340

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CPOs who will give you a reduced price on charging if you start and stop an app, sorry,

start and stop a charge via the app.

341

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And there are other charge point operators who have functionality in the app, which is,

it's missing from other apps, let's put it that way.

342

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So I'm thinking particularly of the Gridserve one where you can actually track your charge

curve within the app.

343

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So.

344

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I don't want to pick, because I know that there are ChargePoint operators who are going to

be listening to this and going Gary, Gary, Gary, you can't say that.

345

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You know, we want our apps, we need them for these reasons.

346

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And I fully understand that.

347

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And I think they're all legitimate reasons why some people would use some ChargePoint

operators app.

348

00:27:31,667 --> 00:27:32,907

I mean, the other one is Tesla.

349

00:27:32,907 --> 00:27:37,538

can't, as a non-Tesla driver, I can't start and stop a Tesla app.

350

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Why do I keep saying app instead of charge?

351

00:27:39,509 --> 00:27:43,489

I can't start and stop a Tesla charge without using the Tesla app.

352

00:27:43,489 --> 00:27:44,432

So that's kind of...

353

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built in there.

354

00:27:45,803 --> 00:27:54,725

And for those pedantics who are listening, unless I'm using the V4 Tesla supercharger that

has the card reader on it, I do understand that, that's fine.

355

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So I think, yes, I can see use cases where an app would be useful.

356

00:28:00,747 --> 00:28:08,199

I can't see a use case where every ChargePoint operator has their own app, which then

brings the next question up, which is, and

357

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I don't know whether you can answer this for Zapmap, Jay, because you're obviously not in

the app development, but some of that functionality that I've talked about at the CPO

358

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level would be really good to include in the Zapmap app, don't you think?

359

00:28:19,758 --> 00:28:20,475

Don't you think?

360

00:28:20,475 --> 00:28:23,761

I can definitely pass your feedback on on that one Gary.

361

00:28:23,761 --> 00:28:24,834

Fantastic.

362

00:28:24,834 --> 00:28:26,338

Do you have any more questions, Victoria?

363

00:28:26,338 --> 00:28:27,498

No more questions.

364

00:28:27,498 --> 00:28:28,698

I really enjoyed it.

365

00:28:28,698 --> 00:28:36,140

I guess from my professional perspective, I'm more keen for the user experience to be

prioritized versus development.

366

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And the way that digital world is moving on, I do feel like fractional feature development

is a little bit more efficient nowadays than just doing everything in house, having a

367

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whole marketing team in house, having a whole development team in house.

368

00:28:52,413 --> 00:29:01,269

It makes sense to work collaboratively and everyone focusing on their thing by making it

perfect versus just trying to do everything yourself.

369

00:29:01,269 --> 00:29:07,638

And I think this is where the app development is kind of can be entered into as well.

370

00:29:07,638 --> 00:29:08,580

Excellent, good.

371

00:29:08,580 --> 00:29:09,692

Thank you very much for that.

372

00:29:09,692 --> 00:29:10,643

My turn now.

373

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I want to talk about a subject which I think is near and dear to many of our hearts, which

is EVED, the electric vehicle excise duty.

374

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Now we all agree that EV drivers need to be able to pay their way and fill the gap which

has appeared in government finances through the potential loss of fuel duty because people

375

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aren't buying fuel if they've got electric vehicles.

376

00:29:28,210 --> 00:29:33,524

And the government is currently proposing this solution called EVED, otherwise known as

the three pence a mile tax.

377

00:29:33,524 --> 00:29:43,993

Now my thesis is that this is the wrong tax and the introduction at this stage is poorly

timed and it will result in fewer electric vehicles being sold in the short to midterm.

378

00:29:43,993 --> 00:29:48,767

On top of that, there are several proposed aspects to the tax, which are fairly troubling.

379

00:29:48,767 --> 00:29:55,156

And I'm happy to go into that in detail, but I want to put this to the panel of guests and

say, do you think EVED is the solution?

380

00:29:55,156 --> 00:29:57,852

And if not, what do we think the solution should be?

381

00:29:57,852 --> 00:30:00,824

And I'm going to ask Jade to take that question first, please.

382

00:30:00,824 --> 00:30:11,949

From a Zapmap perspective, we agree EV drivers should pay their way as the fuel duty

revenues will inevitably decrease over time.

383

00:30:11,949 --> 00:30:16,341

But we think this is definitely the wrong time to introduce something like this.

384

00:30:16,341 --> 00:30:20,393

We think it contradicts with the electric car grant.

385

00:30:20,393 --> 00:30:23,745

it's confused messaging on that.

386

00:30:23,836 --> 00:30:25,876

And it's definitely too early.

387

00:30:25,876 --> 00:30:35,281

the OBR did a review and think it could impact say 400,000 reduction in 400,000 cars.

388

00:30:35,281 --> 00:30:39,772

So that kind of reduction in demand, which is quite frightening really.

389

00:30:40,077 --> 00:30:44,598

so we think there's other things that need to be done before something like that is

introduced.

390

00:30:44,598 --> 00:30:46,753

So particularly looking at

391

00:30:46,753 --> 00:30:54,661

how we reduce the cost of public charging because this feels like a bit of a double whammy

on those people who can't charge at home.

392

00:30:54,661 --> 00:31:05,329

We know from looking at our data that for the vast majority of people, even when, or if

this three pence per mile tax comes in, for the vast majority of people who drive an EV,

393

00:31:05,329 --> 00:31:11,785

it will still be cheaper than if they had a petrol or diesel vehicle and were running

that.

394

00:31:11,785 --> 00:31:15,128

So we don't think it will change actually that headline.

395

00:31:15,128 --> 00:31:21,378

number in those terms but the optics are just not right particularly at this time.

396

00:31:21,378 --> 00:31:25,314

There are other things that should be focused on first before we look at this kind of

measure.

397

00:31:25,314 --> 00:31:26,453

Victoria, any thoughts?

398

00:31:26,453 --> 00:31:27,814

A very quick one.

399

00:31:27,814 --> 00:31:29,355

I personally disagree.

400

00:31:29,355 --> 00:31:31,136

This is a personal opinion.

401

00:31:31,136 --> 00:31:32,547

I disagree with the tax.

402

00:31:32,547 --> 00:31:36,711

To support Jade, I would say the timing is really poor.

403

00:31:36,711 --> 00:31:43,786

Just from the communication and marketing perspective, the timing of such message is just

very poorly structured.

404

00:31:43,786 --> 00:31:49,280

It took us a very long time to go through electrification and make it semi-normal.

405

00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:50,672

We've just started

406

00:31:50,672 --> 00:32:02,223

seeing people saying we don't have a range anxiety anymore and all of a sudden all these

incentives that every single car manufacturer, every single charging operator were trying

407

00:32:02,223 --> 00:32:09,884

to send over to convince consumer this is the new norm, all of a sudden it feels like this

new norm is being punished.

408

00:32:09,884 --> 00:32:15,875

And in addition to this, I just don't understand why electric

409

00:32:15,875 --> 00:32:27,506

car drivers have to pay for loss of fuel, isn't it the whole point that we need to start

having more clean energy and therefore this needs to be reinvested rather than suddenly

410

00:32:27,506 --> 00:32:30,069

subsidized by other users?

411

00:32:30,069 --> 00:32:32,543

But this is just my personal opinion.

412

00:32:32,543 --> 00:32:38,353

I don't think it's the right thing to do and I definitely don't think it's the right

timing to do that.

413

00:32:38,353 --> 00:32:52,384

I think the other thing is that especially while now with car tax, you can be being taxed

200 pounds a year for having an EV, but I know people with 10 year old petrol or diesel

414

00:32:52,384 --> 00:32:55,686

cars that are getting charged 20 pounds a year.

415

00:32:55,686 --> 00:33:02,010

that blew, I had kind of, that had passed me by and then someone said, said, no, no, that

can't be right.

416

00:33:02,010 --> 00:33:05,621

And then I went and I thought, oh my, like, what is that all about?

417

00:33:05,621 --> 00:33:16,321

Like, if you're not going to address that before you do a pay per mile tax that's just

aimed at EVs, I mean, that's the sort of stuff that the general public can understand.

418

00:33:16,321 --> 00:33:18,341

They know what they pay in car tax.

419

00:33:18,341 --> 00:33:25,761

And if they go, well, hold on, if I get rid of this old petrol car and go and get any,

you're going to charge me 10 times as much for my car tax.

420

00:33:25,761 --> 00:33:29,112

And now you're telling me you're going to be charging me a pay per mile.

421

00:33:29,112 --> 00:33:29,904

Mm-hmm.

422

00:33:29,904 --> 00:33:30,547

just not good.

423

00:33:30,547 --> 00:33:32,183

You can't send those mixed messages.

424

00:33:32,183 --> 00:33:32,624

Yeah.

425

00:33:32,624 --> 00:33:40,429

And what's interesting, looping back to the comment that you made earlier, Jade, about the

OBR figure of 400,000 vehicles uh fewer being sold.

426

00:33:40,429 --> 00:33:44,862

I think they walked that back a little bit to about 150,000 shortly after that.

427

00:33:44,862 --> 00:33:46,263

But the point still stands.

428

00:33:46,263 --> 00:33:47,635

Yeah, I believe so.

429

00:33:47,635 --> 00:33:52,079

The potential for people who would have gone to electric to not go to electric.

430

00:33:52,079 --> 00:33:57,925

So my question to you two is, do you know, either anecdotally or legitimately,

431

00:33:57,925 --> 00:34:03,202

of anybody who has said, I am now not going to electric because this tax has put me off.

432

00:34:03,202 --> 00:34:14,111

I wouldn't say I know personally, but I'm still part of a few communities the same way on

Facebook where people are voicing those opinions and they say, I don't want to switch

433

00:34:14,111 --> 00:34:14,723

anymore.

434

00:34:14,723 --> 00:34:22,660

And not necessarily because of the cost, because people are calculating and basically

saying this is okay, because it's so confusing.

435

00:34:22,660 --> 00:34:25,023

It's just a lot of confusion.

436

00:34:25,023 --> 00:34:29,827

You now buy an electric car, you're not getting any visible benefits.

437

00:34:29,827 --> 00:34:40,480

I mean, incentive wise, but you kind of feel like you pay there and there and there, and

then you have to then figure out how much to pay for an app subscription.

438

00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,694

You then need to figure out how much to pay for the charging.

439

00:34:43,694 --> 00:34:50,252

And it's just so confusing and people saying, nah, it's just easier to go back to, you

know, classic car, ice car.

440

00:34:50,252 --> 00:34:59,199

Yeah, I think what I've seen on it is comments like, I'm glad I didn't make the switch

because I knew they were going to do this.

441

00:34:59,199 --> 00:35:03,551

They hooked everybody in saying, we'll give you these benefits and make it cheap.

442

00:35:03,551 --> 00:35:10,076

And then as soon as people have started making the switch in decent numbers, they've gone

great, we can get more money out of you.

443

00:35:10,076 --> 00:35:12,933

I've definitely seen a lot of that kind of talk.

444

00:35:12,933 --> 00:35:23,964

It's interesting, was writing a script for another episode later on in the season and I

was looking back when I first got an electric car 2018, I used to take the trip up to my

445

00:35:23,964 --> 00:35:31,514

parents about 200 miles and using a subscription on what was then Polar slash

Chargemaster, it used to cost me

446

00:35:31,514 --> 00:35:41,302

from my house, three public charging stops, because I had a really short range vehicle, to

get up to Yorkshire used to cost me about £3.50 in public charging.

447

00:35:41,302 --> 00:35:45,596

It's now going to cost me £6 in e-VED to do the same distance.

448

00:35:45,596 --> 00:35:52,871

So that's the way public charging has gone up or how it was six, seven years ago versus

what it is now.

449

00:35:52,871 --> 00:35:54,373

what the EVED is going to be.

450

00:35:54,373 --> 00:36:00,757

that comes back to the point that you were making earlier, which is that we do need to be

looking at the cost of public charging and how we can reduce that.

451

00:36:00,757 --> 00:36:05,840

Because if we can reduce that, it takes the sting away a little bit from the three pence a

mile.

452

00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,311

I still think it's the wrong solution at the wrong time.

453

00:36:08,311 --> 00:36:16,587

But if we can sort of normalize some of the or equalize some of the costs associated with

it, it becomes less of a sting.

454

00:36:16,587 --> 00:36:17,667

Do you think?

455

00:36:24,897 --> 00:36:28,215

I remember when I was driving Polestar just before COVID using InstaVol charger and all I

need to make sure I have got 20 quid on me and that would have been plenty for me to

456

00:36:28,215 --> 00:36:39,178

charge the car and go about my day because I live in a terrace house so charging from home

means I have to take the three pin through my bathroom which is optional.

457

00:36:39,178 --> 00:36:40,769

But I like InstaVolt.

458

00:36:40,769 --> 00:36:47,020

know, for me it was much easier just to go, tap my cards and I was ready to go further.

459

00:36:47,020 --> 00:36:52,056

And I still remember I just need to make sure I have 20 quid and that was was enough.

460

00:36:52,056 --> 00:36:57,533

So Victoria, do we think this is a marketing problem more than anything else?

461

00:36:57,533 --> 00:37:05,522

If they'd approach this in a different way and marketed in a different way, would it be

something that people would be more receptive to than they are at the moment?

462

00:37:05,522 --> 00:37:10,765

I think it could have been solved by changing the communication style for sure.

463

00:37:10,765 --> 00:37:13,165

I think it could have been communicated a little bit later.

464

00:37:13,165 --> 00:37:15,799

I think it could have been communicated simpler.

465

00:37:15,799 --> 00:37:26,025

And I think it would have been good if the charging operators as well as automotive

manufacturers have been consulted before this message have been put out there.

466

00:37:26,025 --> 00:37:29,407

yeah, communication style probably needs to improve.

467

00:37:29,407 --> 00:37:33,008

But I guess it just needed to go out there so people can start prepare.

468

00:37:33,008 --> 00:37:36,429

But now we have to fix it.

469

00:37:36,429 --> 00:37:38,870

We now have to find a way to deal with this.

470

00:37:38,870 --> 00:37:45,392

And I think this is the challenge where CPOs companies like Zapmap and automotive

manufacturers will have to face.

471

00:37:45,392 --> 00:37:53,067

They need to find a way to make it easier for the consumer to understand that it's still

the right choice to make.

472

00:37:53,067 --> 00:37:57,019

And it's still the right choice to make with their car or with their

473

00:37:57,019 --> 00:37:58,254

charging provider.

474

00:37:58,254 --> 00:38:06,305

because the irony is this is something if it does come in, it's going to be coming in from

2028, whereas from September this year.

475

00:38:06,305 --> 00:38:08,447

fuel duty is going to rise.

476

00:38:08,447 --> 00:38:13,499

because of the way fuel duty works, will rise with the RPI or CPI, whichever.

477

00:38:13,499 --> 00:38:23,193

So by the it gets to 2028, people who are still driving petrol and diesel will actually

end up paying more than somebody who's driving electric vehicle at the three pence a mile.

478

00:38:23,193 --> 00:38:25,134

But that wasn't communicated that way.

479

00:38:25,134 --> 00:38:29,547

I mean, if it had been communicated that way, I think the public perception would have

been different.

480

00:38:29,547 --> 00:38:31,588

Yeah, that's a very different message, isn't it?

481

00:38:31,588 --> 00:38:43,639

But I guess that's the, don't want to scare the horses because as soon as they make any

kind of reference to fuel duty increases, then they've got a lot of people on their case.

482

00:38:43,639 --> 00:38:44,270

So yeah.

483

00:38:44,270 --> 00:38:45,871

Yeah, yeah.

484

00:38:45,871 --> 00:38:52,165

the other thing with the eVED, I've been involved in a number of discussions about this,

including one where the Treasury were present.

485

00:38:52,165 --> 00:38:57,057

And at the time when we discussed this, this is a pay in advance.

486

00:38:57,057 --> 00:39:02,440

So you have to estimate what your mileage is going to be and pay it upfront.

487

00:39:02,571 --> 00:39:06,224

And if you sell or get rid of the car there is no refund.

488

00:39:06,224 --> 00:39:10,377

Although I believe they've now walked that back after complaints.

489

00:39:10,377 --> 00:39:14,756

If you want to pay in installments, you will pay more.

490

00:39:14,756 --> 00:39:17,156

It just, you know, it's one of those things that...

491

00:39:17,156 --> 00:39:18,847

why are they doing it this way?

492

00:39:18,847 --> 00:39:24,993

Even if people thought this was a good idea, some of those are ridiculous kind of

constraints that they're putting in there.

493

00:39:24,993 --> 00:39:34,872

But hopefully because of the pressure that companies like organizations like EVA England

and EVUK have been adding to the treasury, I think they're starting to moderate some of

494

00:39:34,872 --> 00:39:35,914

the situations there.

495

00:39:35,914 --> 00:39:41,671

we shall see when the, because the consultation closed yesterday as of this recording.

496

00:39:41,671 --> 00:39:46,129

or two days ago, so we'll see what comes out of the consultation.

497

00:39:46,731 --> 00:39:47,533

Interesting.

498

00:39:47,533 --> 00:39:53,760

that they will be recording the number of miles you've made during MOT.

499

00:39:53,760 --> 00:40:02,680

So why not to just add that cost to MOT cost and then you can kind of estimate in your

head, but at least it's a bit simpler, right?

500

00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:08,356

You do your MOT once a year and then you pay the additional chargers.

501

00:40:08,356 --> 00:40:13,674

So the two reasons they won't do that is first, MOTs are only on after three years.

502

00:40:13,674 --> 00:40:15,555

So what about the new vehicles?

503

00:40:15,555 --> 00:40:16,547

Do they not pay it?

504

00:40:16,547 --> 00:40:20,030

And second one, who's actually going to administer the gathering of that?

505

00:40:20,030 --> 00:40:24,865

Is it the MOT company, the company doing the MOT who will take the money and then have to

transfer it?

506

00:40:24,865 --> 00:40:30,290

Or will the MOT then say, this is how much you pay and you've got to go to a website and

pay it.

507

00:40:30,290 --> 00:40:31,996

And you know, it's just, it's

508

00:40:31,996 --> 00:40:35,669

poorly thought out as to how you will understand this.

509

00:40:35,669 --> 00:40:43,345

I think the other thing is people are going to start looking at clocking speedometers or

odometers so that they won't show the value thing.

510

00:40:43,345 --> 00:40:48,088

Little fact I found out recently, and I'm sure people in the comments will validate this.

511

00:40:48,088 --> 00:40:50,512

It's not illegal to clock a vehicle.

512

00:40:50,512 --> 00:40:54,615

It's illegal to sell a vehicle that's been clocked and not say it's been clocked.

513

00:40:54,615 --> 00:40:56,287

but it's not illegal to clock a vehicle.

514

00:40:56,287 --> 00:40:59,193

So how's that gonna work with e-Ved?

515

00:40:59,193 --> 00:41:01,117

It's just completely bizarre.

516

00:41:01,117 --> 00:41:02,559

Completely bizarre.

517

00:41:02,559 --> 00:41:04,742

Any final thoughts before we move on?

518

00:41:05,775 --> 00:41:09,157

I shall take the silence as saying, no, we have no final thoughts.

519

00:41:09,157 --> 00:41:09,837

Fine.

520

00:41:09,837 --> 00:41:12,068

So I think that's about it for today.

521

00:41:12,068 --> 00:41:13,399

I think we've had some great discussions.

522

00:41:13,399 --> 00:41:14,140

Thank you, everyone.

523

00:41:14,140 --> 00:41:17,752

And to the listeners, I hope you enjoyed listening to today's show.

524

00:41:17,752 --> 00:41:20,763

It was put together this week with the help of Jade Edwards and Victoria Hutton.

525

00:41:20,763 --> 00:41:23,704

Many thanks to both of you for your participation.

526

00:42:23,717 --> 00:42:31,401

If you have any thoughts, comments, criticisms or other general messages to pass on to me,

I can be reached at info at evmusings.com.

527

00:42:31,421 --> 00:42:36,144

On the socials I'm on bluesky at evmusings.bsky.social.

528

00:42:36,264 --> 00:42:43,949

I'm also on Instagram at evmusings where I post those little short videos in the odd

podcast extract regularly.

529

00:42:43,949 --> 00:42:45,359

Why not follow me there?

530

00:42:45,501 --> 00:42:53,783

Many thanks to everyone who supports me through Patreon on a monthly basis and through

coffee.com on an ad hoc basis.

531

00:42:54,103 --> 00:42:57,604

Now, if you enjoyed this episode, why not buy me a coffee?

532

00:42:57,604 --> 00:43:01,386

Go to coffee.com slash EV Musings and you can do just that.

533

00:43:01,386 --> 00:43:05,107

KO dash FI dot com slash EV Musings.

534

00:43:05,107 --> 00:43:06,647

Takes Apple Pay too.

535

00:43:07,487 --> 00:43:09,848

Regular listeners will know about my two e-books.

536

00:43:09,848 --> 00:43:14,279

So you've gone electric and so you've gone renewable.

537

00:43:14,559 --> 00:43:20,892

Now they're 99p each or equivalent and you can get them on the Kendall store on Amazon.

538

00:43:20,993 --> 00:43:28,757

Now check out the links in the show notes for more information as well as a link to my

regular EV Musings newsletter and associated articles.

539

00:43:28,860 --> 00:43:40,587

Now I've spoken to a few of you and I know that you're probably driving, walking, jogging,

ironing or sat on the sofa watching this on your phone but if you can remember and you

540

00:43:40,587 --> 00:43:47,240

enjoyed the episode drop a review in iTunes please, like, subscribe, leave a comment on

YouTube because it really helps.

541

00:43:47,313 --> 00:43:50,585

If you've reached this part of the podcast and are still listening, thank you.

542

00:43:50,585 --> 00:43:53,177

Why not let me know you've got to this point by messaging me.

543

00:43:53,177 --> 00:43:59,148

at musingsv.beesky.social with the words, halfway there, hashtag if you know you know

nothing else.

544

00:43:59,148 --> 00:44:01,051

And thanks as always to my co-founder Simon.

545

00:44:01,051 --> 00:44:02,764

You know he's been very quiet this week.

546

00:44:02,764 --> 00:44:04,077

I bet he'll be back next week.

547

00:44:04,077 --> 00:44:05,730

Thanks for listening and watching.

548

00:44:05,730 --> 00:44:06,491

Bye now.

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