Champagne is lovely. It means “festive” to most of us. But it’s pricey. Very.

We’re Bruce Weinstein & Mark Scarbrough, veteran cookbook authors of thirty-six (and counting) cookbooks. We love bubbly wine! But let’s talk all sorts of alternatives to the budget-busting champagne.

Here are the segments for this episode of COOKING WITH BRUCE & MARK:

[00:50] Our one-minute cooking tip: Use a salad spinner to fix an overdressed salad.

[02:35] Champagne alternatives for the holidays: Cava, Prosecco, and Cremant.

[17:57] What’s making us happy in food this week: wild pheasant braised with apples and lamb birria.

Hey, I'm Bruce Weinstein, and this is

the podcast Cooking With Bruce and Mark.

2

And I'm Mark Skarborough.

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And together with Bruce, we have

written, as you probably well know

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at this point, three dozen cookbooks.

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We're working on our thirty seventh.

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We have written other books, too.

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I wrote a memoir.

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Bruce has written Well, knitting books.

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Bruce teaches Knitting Online.

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You should check out his website,

Bruce weinstein.net to find out

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where his classes are and what

he's up to with knitting next.

12

But this is our podcast about

the main passion in our life,

13

which is food and cooking.

14

We've got, as is always the

case, a one minute cooking tip.

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We have entire.

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segment coming up about sparkly

wines for the holidays that

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are not champagne from France.

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And we'll tell you what's making

us happy in food this week.

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So let's get started.

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Our one minute cooking tip.

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Have you ever overdressed a salad?

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Of course you have.

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I have.

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I have.

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Here's what you do.

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Dump it back in your salad spinner.

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Oh no.

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Give it a whirl and

the dressing flies off.

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Oh, this is like your gravy thermos idea.

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What?

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But then, you've taken most of

the dressing off, and the leaves

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may be a little bruised, so put

some fresh, new, undressed crisp

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leaves with them and it's perfect.

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Okay, wait a minute.

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Stop.

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This works if you've dressed your salad

as we always do with oil and vinegar.

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It does not work with

Thousand Island dressing.

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You cannot put leaves in a salad.

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Spinner with Thousand Island

Dressing, or Creamy Ranch, or French.

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You can, as long as it has no,

you know, crunchy bits in it.

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There are no solids in

your salad dressing.

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Thickened dressing's not

gonna spin off, come on.

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In that case, you just

need to warrant leaves.

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But yeah, okay, I'll buy it.

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If you overdress an oil and vinegar,

or a clear ish vinaigrette, On a salad,

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you can probably spin it off in a

spinner, but you got a mess to clean up.

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You do have a mess, but if you're short

on lettuce and don't have enough left

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for a whole new salad, then there you go.

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Okay.

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I get it.

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All right, fine.

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I'll grant you this one minute cleaning

tip because it didn't involve a thermos.

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Anyway, before we get to the next segment

of the podcast, let me say that there

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is a Facebook group called Cooking

with Bruce and Mark, and you can also

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follow us on all kinds of channels.

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We're on Instagram under our own names.

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We're at TikTok, uh, in a channel

called Cooking with Bruce and Mark.

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And of course, as you know, there's

our website, Cooking with Bruce

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and Mark, or just bruceandmark.

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com.

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You can find us all over the place, and

we'd love to connect with you elsewhere.

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Okay.

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I'll Up next, a whole discussion

about bubbles for the holidays.

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By now, I think you know Mark and I

love champagne more than any other wine.

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I do.

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And you also know that we like a

champagne alternative called Petnat.

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But we're not talking about

Petnat today, finally.

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It's an episode where we're

not discussing Petnat.

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Oh, no, we always talk about Petnat.

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Pétalons naturels.

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We always talk about Petnat.

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And one of the reasons we always go to

Petnat is because a case of champagne

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often costs Or more, and we don't

want to spend that kind of money.

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With tariffs coming, who knows

how much it's going to cost.

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Right, so you want to stock up for

Christmas and New Year's, so we've done

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a little, you know, research, and we've

got champagne alternatives that you might

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want to think about for the holidays.

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Okay, basically to lay this out, we're

going to Cava, Prosecco, and Cremant.

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Uh, these are different, uh, sparkly

wines from different places, from

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Spain, from Italy, and from France.

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Not from the Champagne region,

but from other places in France,

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particularly from, uh, Burgundy.

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But we want to talk about that,

but let's start with Cava.

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Okay, so Bruce is the person who actually

introduced me to Spanish Cava in my life.

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I didn't even know it was a thing, um,

so what do you want to say about Cava?

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Well, we've talked about Cava before,

and so, you know, we have said it before.

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It mostly comes from northern Spain, and

it's a relatively inexpensive bubbly wine.

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Most people think that, oh, Cava's

going to cost you about 10 a bottle.

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But there are a couple of levels of

Cava above that standard base level that

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you're going to find in your liquor store.

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There is Reserva Cava

and a Grand Reserva Cava.

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The Reserva actually

requires 15 months of aging.

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Which is the same requirement, get

this, for non vintage champagne.

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I think one of the problems here, and

often the argument about cava, is that the

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Champagne region of France, where so much

of World War I was fought, in that region,

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the grapes are subjected to a more humid

and slightly, well, not even slightly,

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colder climate that is damper and colder,

and I think the, uh, kind of standard

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answer here is the grapes then produce,

like the Pinot Noir grapes and others that

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are used for champagne there, are juicier,

and they have less of a raisiny quality

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to them because they're not in such a dry

climate, and I think that's also true.

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Often the knock against kava

is that it gets too dry, but of

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course for us, we like dry wine.

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So for us, it works better.

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I think also it works better because for

me, the grapes are, how do I say this?

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It's delicately less soft.

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Mark has this thing

about wines in general.

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The grapes have to suffer.

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And so you like, Mark, you like wines from

regions that are dry and arid and desert

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like because the wine tastes more intense.

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I prefer southern Italian

wines to Tuscan wines.

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I prefer southern French wines

to Burgundies and Bordeaux's.

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I like Spanish wines.

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I like wines where, again,

things have to Yeah.

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Worked very hard.

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I like Paso Robles in California

much more than I like Napa wine.

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And because of that, when we get down

to talking about, Cromance is actually

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one that I think Mark likes better than

Champagne, but we're still on cavas.

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We had the Reserva Cava, right?

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15 months of aging, same requirement

for non vintage Champagnes.

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Then there's a level called Gran Reserva.

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That is not only is the wine required

to be from a single vintage, and

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these bottles are vintage dated,

it must age for at least 30 months.

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If you compare this to vintage

champagne, their requirement is

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36 months, so it's really close.

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It's close.

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You'll actually find many Grand Reserva

Cava producers that age their wine much

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longer than this minimum 30 months.

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And we should always say that

all of these Reserva and Grand

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Reserva Cavas are vintage.

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are running half the

price on an average basis.

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Let's say half the price of what

a French champagne would run you.

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And then there is this problem of

what is now lying beyond the various

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levels of Spanish control of wine

production with Reserva and all that.

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And that is a group of producers

recently, uh, spearheaded by

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Raventos, who we actually love.

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It was our favorite cava, which is.

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No longer kava as you're

about to explain, right.

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They have spearheaded, uh, an initiative

with 11 other wineries and have actually

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broken away from the Spanish kava, DOC,

that is the official Spanish designation

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of Kava in the last couple years, and

they're starting to produce wines with.

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Only native grapes without any of

those French traders like Chardonnay

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and Pinot Noir that have made their

way down to the Iberian Peninsula.

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And they're trying to do it with,

again, well, they are doing it

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with native grapes and they're

escaping the strictures of the D.

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O.

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C.

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in Spain.

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However, they are producing wines that are

finer than a lot of the Grand Reservas.

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Reventos was a Reserva

and a Grand Reserva.

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wine maker.

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So they are still following really strict

rules to make really good wine, but

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they have made it intrinsically Spanish.

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And I cannot say enough how much we

love Reventos wine, which used to be

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a cava and there's really no lava.

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So that is a fabulous wine.

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in just a conversational way cover,

but they can't actually come under the

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official governmental bureaucratic.

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And you'll find those bottles, and

they make whites, they make rosés,

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uh, they make really, really dry

brutes and some little semi brutes.

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You'll find them for a steal

at about 20 bucks a bottle.

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And they taste like they

are worth the money.

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A lot more than that, right?

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And I think that that is Bruce's

and my go to is the Raventos covers.

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Well, they're not covers, but yeah,

Raventos, sparkling wines and the other

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wineries that have broken with them.

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I think that's our go to at this

point if we're not gonna pop All

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the money for true French Champagne.

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So let's move on to Prosecco from Italy.

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And my thing is that Prosecco often

gets in North America and outside

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of Italy, a lot of Europe a bad rap.

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It does.

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Well, it's often very inexpensive.

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And what you'll find as a house

pour of Prosecco in a lot of

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restaurants and bars in the U.

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S.

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Right.

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Is really inexpensive.

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Right.

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Because just the fact that it's

sparkling, Restaurants and bartenders

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think, Oh, people will like it.

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And it's not always the best

Prosecco that is produced.

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No, it isn't.

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I tell you, if you're ever in

Portland, Maine, we have a favorite

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oyster joint called The Shop.

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That it's not the one

that everyone talks about.

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This is a separate restaurant.

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I mean, it's not separate.

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It's a different restaurant altogether

up on Monjoy Hill, The Shop.

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And just so you know, if

you ever go to The Shop.

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All they've got is oysters, raw oysters,

and some clams, but that's really it.

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But here's the kicker.

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They have Prosecco on tap, on tap,

so you can get a picture of Prosecco.

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So, you know, it's not the

finest Prosecco ever produced.

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And I kind of like that picture

of Prosecco, it cranks me up.

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Most Prosecco is produced in

the region North of Venice.

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And again, On inexpensive, you can

normally get a bottle for under

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10 bucks, but you can look for

Prosecco superior, especially from

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the DOCG, the Italian designation.

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And I'm going to butcher this Italian.

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That's coming from Conigliano

Valdobbiadene, and I'm sure

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I've pronounced that wrong.

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If you speak Italian, please drop me a

note and tell me how I screwed that up.

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But this is a hilly region that

is directly between Venice.

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And here are two really good bottles

of Proceco Superior to look for.

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One is Ribuli, R I B U L I, and the

other is Bottega, B O T T E G A.

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Both are going to set you back a little

more than that Reventos did, maybe 25.

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Have to price a good champagne still.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And, you know, listen, a part of

this has to do with the economies

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of these countries and also the

international reputation of the product.

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So Spain is in a slightly more

depressed state even than Italy.

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I know Italy's economy is

kind of teetering right now,

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but even more so than Italy.

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And so, you know, the Spanish wine is

going to naturally be cheaper because

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of economic factors, but that said,

you shouldn't look down on Cava and

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certainly not on Prosecco themselves.

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And they are all cheaper

than French Champagne.

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And remember the thing about

French Champagne, which I love,

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listen, I love French Champagne.

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There's no doubt about it, but

you're paying for the brand.

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You're paying for the

regional brand Champagne.

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And there are a thousand different

bottlers of Champagne in Champagne.

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And to be honest, they're not

all fantastic just because

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they're in the Champagne region.

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We have had bottles of champagne

that I've been like, eh, that's

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not so great, not worth the 50.

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I'm not sure I'd buy it.

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You think every champagne is good?

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No, I don't think every, but,

okay, every Italian out there can

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hate me now and every Spaniard can

hate me now, but I can't help it.

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The French are the masters of wine.

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Don't hate me.

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They are the masters of wine.

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I think I hate you for that.

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Every California producer now hates me.

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I think the Italian wine.

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But, okay, let me finish my sentence.

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Come on.

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But that doesn't mean that I think

that I'm always drinking French

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wine, nor am I always paying

the upcharge for French wine.

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When French wine is right, it is right.

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There is no doubt about it.

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And there is no doubt about that

when champagne is right, it tops

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everything that we're saying.

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But the key words you said there, the key

words you said there was when it's right.

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Yes.

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It's not.

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Always.

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And now I'm going to say that I think

it's more right than it's wrong.

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Okay.

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It's more right than

these are often right.

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That all said, my wine cellar, our

wine cellar right now is full of kava.

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So yes, I do.

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I think that kava is great.

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Of course I do.

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Do I think French champagne,

like a beautiful bottle of

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Paul Roger is spectacular?

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Of course, but you know,

it's, it's hard to pop.

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55, 60 for a bottle.

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So, uh, I, I, you can see

we've popped for Cava.

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Okay, that's way too much information.

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But let's talk about Cremant, which is a

French wine that is not from Champagne.

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But it is the same wine.

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It is made the same way, often

made from the same grapes.

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It is.

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And it is, you know, put in those

wooden racks and it's riddled where

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you, they shake them and all the It is.

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yeast falls to the top and they I, I think

that there's this thing about Cremant.

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And it is that, uh, for many of us my

age, when we were tramped around with

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let's go Europe in the 1980s, late 70s and

80s, and we're backpacking across Europe,

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Cremant was the crappy, bubbly wine that

we drank because we didn't have any money.

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It's way changed since then.

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Oh my goodness.

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Way, way changed.

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But for many of us, it still

carries that kind of, Oh, Jesus.

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cheap bottle of wine we bought and

drank in a public park in France.

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Well, it basically is Champagne

made outside of any region except

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Champagne, and there are 20 regions

in France where they make this.

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The most famous four, we'll start with

the first, the Cremant de Bourgogne.

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Right.

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Burgundy.

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Most of the Cremon you'll

find is from Burgundy.

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It has the same quality as Burgundy wines.

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They tend to be a little bit lighter, they

tend to be a little softer and smoother.

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It's a very wet, moist, humid region.

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So the wine doesn't suffer,

the grapes don't suffer.

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Not like they do down south.

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Which now, let's talk about

down south for a second.

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There's Cremon.

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de Limoux, which is made basically

in the French Riviera in the

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Languedoc Roussillon region.

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That's much more to your liking, isn't it?

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Well, yeah, because the grapes

are going to suffer down there

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in Languedoc because it's so dry.

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It's basically, if you don't know

that, uh, southern bits of France,

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like near Roussillon and down that

way are kind of the northernmost

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outpost of the Saharan ecosystem.

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So the grapes are definitely

going to suffer down there in that

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dry and at times bitter bitter

climate, well, bitter wind climate.

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Uh, there's also a Cremant that's made in

Alsace, which is up by the German border.

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And it much more, uh,

looks to German wines.

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It has that kind of Germanic wine taste.

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If you know what that means a

little bit, uh, uh, what do I say?

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A little bit sweeter, a

little bit more of sharp.

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points in it.

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I'm not putting down German wine,

but German wine is not as notoriously

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rounded as French and Spanish wine.

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And so there are crements made in

Alsace that kind of look toward Germany.

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I know there's a lot of

history in what I just said.

310

They look toward history.

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So there, uh, they, you

should check this out.

312

They're all made with Pinot

Blanc, not Pinot Noir.

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And our favorite one, this is, and I

think this is probably our favorite

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crement, is from Alsace and look for it.

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Albrecht Tradition and Albrecht Tradition.

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It's 100 percent Pinot

Blanc, as Mark said.

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It's an incredible champagne stand

in, also for about 25 bucks a bottle.

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And we said there were four.

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The fourth one is actually right

across the valley from Burgundy.

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It's Cremon de Jura.

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And you're going to get very

similar Cremons there that you

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get in the Cremon de Bologna.

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Similar, but Slightly, oh man,

this is an overgeneralization,

324

slightly less sophisticated.

325

Um, It's not Bourgogne.

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It's not Burgundy, and the climate, the

microclimates are different, and it's

327

not quite as layered and sophisticated as

Burgundy grapes get, and Burgundy wines

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get, and even Clermonts from Burgundy get.

329

But, listen.

330

If, if I were spending money, and I did

spend money for the holidays, and I did

331

buy wine, we bought Cava, as you heard,

and we went right to Raventos and to

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those other wineries selected around

Raventos that have kind of broken off

333

from the Spanish bureaucratic system.

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You can find them all.

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That's where we went.

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Yeah, go to Raventos.

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com, look them up, Google Raventos

Winery, and you will find their whole

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list of wineries that have broken from

the DOC and are producing amazing wine.

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Wonderful wines.

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Before we get to the last segment of this

podcast, let me say that it would be great

341

if you could subscribe to this podcast

and, more importantly, could you rate it?

342

Dare I ask for five stars?

343

If you could rate it, that would be great.

344

And if you can write a review, even

just nice podcast or thanks for

345

the podcast on whatever platform

allows you to write ratings.

346

That helps us because otherwise we

have chosen to remain unsupported

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and our support is from you.

348

So that's the way you can

help us out with this podcast.

349

It keeps the podcast

fresh in the algorithms.

350

Thanks for helping us out.

351

Okay.

352

As is traditional, the final segment.

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of this podcast every week.

354

What's making us happy in food this week?

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Wild pheasant braised with apples.

356

Oh my gosh.

357

And juniper berries.

358

That was something.

359

Last night we were invited to

a friend's house for dinner.

360

Yeah, Bruce did not make this.

361

I did not make this.

362

A friend of ours made it.

363

Allison made it.

364

And if you're listening

Allison, that was delicious.

365

You are a very good cook.

366

And of course there was so

much food to eat before dinner.

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All this smoked salmon.

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Cold smoked, hot smoked, there were

cheeses, there was shrimp cocktail, and

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then she braised these wild pheasants

that her son had shot in Montana, and

370

she braised them in wine and cream and

butter with juniper berries and apples

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and served them with baked potatoes that

I brought, of all things, a plum chutney

372

to serve with, and it was spectacular.

373

I had butter . And salt and pepper on my

baked potato, but okay, uh, that's great.

374

But I, that's what I

had on my baked potato.

375

It was spectacular.

376

Uh, they were really

mild for wild pheasants.

377

I mean, you know, I know these things are

released for, for hunting expeditions,

378

so they're not game birds per se in the

United States, but still, nonetheless,

379

they were nicely, uh, mild and it was

really beautiful stuff all the way around.

380

I guess what's making me happy in

food is because something beautiful.

381

Bruce made.

382

He made, earlier this week, lamb birria.

383

And he made it in the old fashioned way of

making a birria, if you know about this.

384

It's a Mexican braised dish with

lots of chilies and aromatics.

385

You serve it with tortillas.

386

He made his own homemade

blue corn tortillas.

387

Of course I did.

388

And we had lots of salsa macha to

go on top of it and sour cream.

389

Pickled red onion.

390

Pickled red onions, and the lamb birria

were on lamb necks from a local farm.

391

He pulled the meat off after it got

tender in the oven after 900 years,

392

and he pulled the meat off and then

crisped the meat on a griddle and

393

just brought the griddle to the table.

394

In bacon fat.

395

Crisped.

396

With the crisp lamb meat having been

made nice and crunchy and bacon fat.

397

That was really an insane meal.

398

Um, thank you.

399

It was delicious.

400

Always.

401

Yeah.

402

That's the podcast for this week.

403

Thanks for listening.

404

We appreciate your spending time with us.

405

us in the giant podcast landscape, as we

always say, and we would love to connect

406

with you on any social media platform.

407

And every week we tell you

what's making us happy in food.

408

So connect with us on the social

platform, Facebook in our group,

409

Cooking with Bruce and Mark.

410

There, you will find

some videos that we do.

411

You will see some things we share about

the stuff we're eating, and please go

412

there and tell us what is making you

happy in food this week, because we want

413

to know on Cooking with Bruce and Mark.