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Episode 420 - Footballers and Racism
11th March 2024 • The Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove • The Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove
00:00:00 00:52:32

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Topics:

00:45 Introducing the Hosts and a Missing Member

01:27 Diving into Today's Hot Topics: Footballers and Controversies

05:55 Exploring the Complexities of Racism and Power Dynamics

12:11 The Legal Landscape of Racism and Public Perception

15:28 Analyzing Specific Cases and the Definition of Racism

19:09 The Debate Continues: Institutional Power and Racism

22:50 Reflecting on Behavior, Privilege, and the Essence of Racism

26:52 Exploring the Complexities of Racism and Privilege

28:04 The Condescension in Discourse on Racism

28:58 Redefining Racism: Beyond Skin Color and Gender

29:23 The Trivialization of Racism and Its Legal Implications

31:55 The Misunderstood Nature of Racism in Society

34:50 The Debate Over Racism Definitions and Its Impact

36:57 Summation: A Call for a Fair Understanding of Racism

41:21 The Nuclear Power Debate: A Futile Pursuit?

49:24 Closing Remarks and Miscellaneous Discussions

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Transcripts started in episode 324. You can use this link to search our transcripts. Type "iron fist velvet glove" into the search directory, click on our podcast and then do a word search. It even has a player which will play the relevant section. It is incredibly quick.

Transcripts

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Suburban Eastern Australia, an environment that has, over time,

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evolved some extraordinarily unique groups of homosapiens.

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But today, we observe a small tribe akin to a group of meerkats that

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gather together atop a small mound to watch, question, and discuss

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the current events of their city.

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Their country and their world at large.

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Let's listen keenly and observe this group fondly known as the

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Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.

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Well, we're back.

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Episode 420, Iron Fist Velvet Glove podcast, streaming to you live

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on a Monday night from Brisbane.

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I'm Trevor, aka the Iron Fist.

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With me for the moment, Joe, the tech guy.

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How are you, Joe?

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Evening all.

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And somewhere out there, might be Scott, but he just hasn't arrived.

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So, don't know what the story is with Scott.

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Hopefully, he'll join in at some stage.

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So, so yeah, hopefully Scott will be there.

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We've had a few technical issues in the lead up.

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That's why we're a couple of minutes late.

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If you're in the chat room, say hello.

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There are two people there, apparently.

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Unless that's just you and I that are counted in that too, Joe.

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The tech.

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Okay, good.

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Say hello if you're there.

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topics.

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What are we going to talk about?

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Well, you've got to hand it to footballers for presenting this podcast

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with plenty of material over the years.

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Israel Folau was fantastic for providing hours of arguments.

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A lot of it involving the 12th man as well.

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a lot of that time I was actually on the same wavelength as the 12th man, I think.

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So anyway, we've got a couple of footballers in the last week.

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Samantha Kerr, soccer player, and we've also got Ezra Mamm,

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who was racially insulted, while playing in America on the NRL game.

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Or was he racially insulted?

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It's all getting quite confusing, Joe.

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Have you been keeping up with the to ing and fro ing about how different

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people have labelled these events?

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I merely saw the Sam Kerr stuff, I didn't see the other one.

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Right.

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Okay.

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So, so yeah, dear listener, there's quite a lot of discussion about what these,

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are you, you know, the true meaning of these events, whether they were racist

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and a lot of people getting very upset online about, how they label these events.

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So, so we're going to spend a bit of time on that and what

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else are we going to talk about?

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what else is on my list here?

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We've got, a little China update and, About the Reserve Bank and, oh,

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remember we spoke just a week or two ago about, our obligations in relation

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to supplying arms to Israel and whether we were in breach of, of, laws

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regarding the supply of arms and how, The Netherlands had stopped supplying.

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Well, in the meantime, Anthony Albanese has been referred to an

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international, yes, an international court for his actions and

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inactions in relation to Israel.

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So kind of along the same lines, a bit about that and, maybe we'll talk a

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little bit about nuclear power as well because that's come up on the radar.

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Because that's the one and only policy that Dutton and the Liberal

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Party, Joe, have come up with.

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Yes.

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It's it's Clean Coal 2.

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0, isn't it?

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It's what?

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Clean Coal 2.

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0.

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Yeah.

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It's another excuse not to, stop burning coal for the next 20 years,

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whilst we faff around thinking about possibly maybe doing nuclear.

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Correct.

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It, it just shows how abysmal this group is, that that's the best

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thing that they could come up with.

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And it's a complete dud of a decision.

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Nobody is, is going to be up for this except Joe, their existing

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voters who might like the idea.

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But, but when, in terms of the crowd they've got to win over to win an

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election, this is not going to fly.

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And as people learn more about it.

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they'll, they'll be even more against it, I think, once,

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once they understand the facts.

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Hmm.

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Yeah.

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Anyway, we'll get to that.

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So, ah, oh, before we start, Joe, what we're grateful for, let me just say I'm

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grateful again for Anesthetic, because I'm going to have some more of it tomorrow.

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Because I've got, ah, the listener, I've got really bad

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varicose veins on my right leg.

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I've had them for years and I decided to do something about it.

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And while I'm getting these maintenance issues done on my

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body, I thought, what the heck?

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I'm 59.

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I'll get these things done before my warranty expires.

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So I'll be under the knife again tomorrow and enjoying some anaesthetic.

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And, yeah, I'll be fixing out my varicose veins.

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So, so once again, I'm grateful for anaesthetic.

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You grateful for anything, Joe?

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Are you?

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Well, my sister in law bought me a bottle of rum whilst I was in

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France, which I wasn't thankful for at the time because I had to get it

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back through customs and in luggage.

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Yeah.

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but it does turn out to be a very nice bottle of rum, so I'm thankful for that.

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There we go.

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That's a simple one.

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That's good.

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Right.

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Dear listener, just a, a, a reminder, this podcast has chapters, you should be able

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to look on your app and find the chapters and scoot around topics if you don't want

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to hear us fluff about with our personal anecdotes at the beginning, if you want

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to jump straight into the meaty topics.

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Check out the chapters and do that.

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So, well, Samantha Kerr, another footballer presenting an ethical

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conundrum, if you've been living in a cave and haven't heard, so there

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was an allegation that the Matildas captain, Samantha Kerr, was in a

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taxi cab and threw up and there was an altercation with the taxi driver

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about the fare and the police became involved and that she called a British

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police officer, a stupid white bastard.

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And that she has denied.

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She said she called him a stupid white cop, I think, is the latest version.

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But certainly the use of the word white is not disputed.

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And as Crikey said, this has seen a flood of takes.

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conservative commentator Calla Bond, writing for the Herald Sun, said the

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decision to charge her with hurting a policeman's feelings was madness.

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Adding it would be one of the least offensive things he'd been called.

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Writing for Crikey, lawyer Michael Bradley said there was a legal precedent

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that being called white isn't a term of abuse, nor a descriptor of any

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ethnic, national or racial group.

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And he based that on a case where a woman called a prison officer.

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Oh, by the way, dear listener, language warning in this episode, unfortunately.

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Keep the kiddies away.

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So yeah, a woman called a prison officer.

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A fucking white piece of shit, some years ago, and apparently got off.

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That was in Australia, wasn't it?

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Yes, it was.

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Indeed.

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And this is in the UK.

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Indeed.

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And no doubt the laws are written quite differently.

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They are, yes.

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former socceroo, Craig Foster, urged Football Australia to

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strip Kerr of her captaincy.

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If the allegation is proven, saying all racism should be dealt with equally.

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But later on, he recount, he, he went back on that, and he said, quote,

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Sam Kerr's case has created immensely important conversations and exposed gaps

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in Australia's knowledge, including mine.

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I am not at all surprised to have got this wrong.

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Apologise to Sam for reaching the wrong conclusion, and am very pleased

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to be able to improve my advocacy.

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So, that was him going back on what he'd originally said, and, we've

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got, an academic told the Sydney Morning Herald, racism is prejudice

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plus institutional power, and Kerr's alleged slur didn't fit the bill.

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so, oh look, dear listener, what it's going to come down

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to is people's understanding, Lyman's understanding of racism.

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Compared with legal and sort of NGO government use and

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understanding of the term racism.

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So, we'll get to that.

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Um, here's another take.

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This is from a Twitter account of AYEDFY who's posted Lots of people on the

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left, suddenly okay with a highly paid coloniser denigrating a working class

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Indigenous person with racial slurs.

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Good on the local police for resisting Kerr's imperialist violence.

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Joe, I like that one just as an example of, you know, every, one man's freedom

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fighter is another man's terrorist.

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Just another way of looking at things.

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I like that one.

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Appreciated that different take on that one.

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Yeah, I mean, the UK is well known for being the police chasing

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down people for Twitter comments and charging them with offence.

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Yes.

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so that it's happening in all directions doesn't surprise me.

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Hmm.

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Here's some more comments just to give you some flavour of the arguments.

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I don't get it.

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How is it possible to give racist offence to a white person?

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It's hurt feelings against The exercise of racial power through language.

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Conservatives think they win by turning everything on its head.

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And another person writes, A lot of people don't actually understand the

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true definition of racism is based on systems of power and oppression.

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not just insults in a bar.

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And Joe, the Human Rights Commission said, Racism is the process by which systems

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and policies, actions and attitudes create inequitable opportunities and

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outcomes for people based on race.

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Racism is more than just prejudice in thought or action.

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It occurs when this prejudice, whether individual or institutional,

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So Joe, I would have thought that if you just think that a certain racial group

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is, is less worthy, is somehow lower in status, is to be denigrated in some way,

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you've got a negative attitude to a racial group, that that was kind of racism, is

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how I would have thought of as race, kind of the dictionary definition of racism.

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But what a lot of these commentators are saying is that, nope, it's got to

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be accompanied by the person making the insult or, or sort of the racial,

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racist act, has to have some sort of power over the other person, that will

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allow them to discriminate, potentially, and also handy if there's some sort

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of institution involved in it as well that they represent, if there's

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some sort of institutional power.

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So.

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This is special pleading, isn't it?

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Well, it's extra sort of hurdles and elements of Special pleading.

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Yeah.

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And I think what's happening here So really what they're saying is somebody

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insulting somebody in a bar, calling somebody a bastard or something like

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that, isn't racism unless it comes with some sort of power imbalance or some

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sort of institutional power imbalance.

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Yeah.

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And, unfortunately, the people wielding that argument are also doing

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it in a way that's really denigrating the other people who are using the

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more common dictionary definition.

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And the reason this is happening, Joe, I think, is it because people

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are applying a legalistic definition of racism to the circumstances.

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And in the law, look, they don't want to deal with trivial cases.

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They don't want to just deal with minor matters.

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They do in England.

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Well, okay, maybe they do, but I can see that the law would say, look, arguments

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in a bar, we don't necessarily want to hear about somebody just slagging

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off across the street at somebody.

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we want to see, a genuine potential for discrimination.

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We want to see power being used inappropriately.

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We want to see, institutions involved in order for us to apply

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extra legal penalties, because often this is like an aggravating aspect

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of an offence, like if you are.

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And so I can see how the law would say, we've got these extra bits

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and pieces that we want to see.

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before we're going to create extra penalties for racism.

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And, but then the people who are wielding that argument are really

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then saying, well, there you go.

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That's what racism means in everyday life.

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And it's not.

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It can mean more than that.

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It's, it doesn't have to jump through those hurdles in everyday life as we,

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the common people, understand racism.

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So, so that's where I'm getting to with this.

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And I'm finding it dangerous, unnecessary, risky, when people want to, to make it

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more difficult to describe something as racism, because racism is an ugly thing.

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Why would we want to be?

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Limiting the idea of it, when we don't have to.

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We should be calling it out when it's there and not finding

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excuses that it doesn't exist.

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And it's all then complicated by sympathy for, for wanting things

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tossed out when they're just trivial.

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So that's an, sort of an overlay over, over the whole thing.

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So I can see comments are starting to flood in and, oh, Scott's not joining us.

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Not sure.

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But, anyway.

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I'll get back to the comments after I've had my rant on this,

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and then see what everybody says.

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Might be easiest rather than dealing with it.

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So keep making your comments, and I'll try and get to them.

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So let me do a bit more.

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So, so where this gets tricky then is where we've had the case

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of the Broncos footballer, Ezra Mann, who was playing football, NRL

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first round, playing in Las Vegas.

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And Spencer Leniu, Leniui, who I think is of a kind of a

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Polynesian descent on the field.

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called Ezra Mamm a monkey, and he, Ezra Mamm was immediately, greatly offended,

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immediately reported it to the referee, and apparently shortly, you know, the game

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finished not long afterwards, and he was in the sheds crying and very upset by it.

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by this insult.

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So if you're going to hold that it's only racist, it's only racism if it's

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accompanied by institutional power, then you'd have to say that that

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footballer wasn't acting with any institutional power against Ezra Mamm.

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And therefore, what he said to Ezra Mamm.

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Wasn't racist.

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Because it was the lack of the institutional power and

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the ability to discriminate.

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And that's just crazy.

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But also, was he calling him a monkey because of the color of his skin, or was

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he saying, oh, you're a fucking monkey?

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Because you've got less intelligence than the average human.

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Yeah, who knows what he was Well, actually, I do have his statement here.

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So this is the statement by Spencer Lenny Yu, am I right?

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Lenny Yu?

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I've mucked up the pronunciation, but, Because he was in front of the

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NRL Commission, so he's been charged with, sort of, conduct unbecoming

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to the game, I think is more or less what he's been charged with.

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And his statement was, I'm so sorry I said that to Ezra and made him feel little.

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This game is so fast, and at the time I didn't know the meaning

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of that word, and how much it means to the Indigenous community.

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He said something to me, and I said something to him,

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and I thought it was banter.

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At the time, I thought it was one brown man saying something to another brown man.

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How we speak to each other is so common.

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At the time, I had no idea what that word meant.

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There is no room for racism in the game, and I'm glad he's brought it up.

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I love the Indigenous community and their culture.

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We wouldn't have the game without them.

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Looking back on it now, I can't believe he used that word, but I didn't mean,

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in any racial way, I'm so sorry.

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So, does that answer that, Joe, as to what he was thinking when he said it?

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Yeah, I mean, it sounds like he was just Let's, let's, let's, let's just assume

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the worst, and they just didn't think it was a right, just, imagine somebody

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using it in a racial slur, like they're just like, you know, if you don't have

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institutional power attached to it.

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The definition being used by a lot of these people Yeah, absolutely.

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means it's, it's not racism.

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And it clearly could be.

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Well, then the special pleading is does he have more power because of the

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colour of his skin than the person?

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But they're both brown.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, but one's an Aboriginal, one's an Islander.

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Yes.

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So is an island a slightly less high on the scale?

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This is where, why would you introduce this power necessity if you don't have to?

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Because it gets really ugly then, doesn't it?

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Like, Joe It's the race to the bottom, isn't it?

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It's, I'm more oppressed than you are.

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Is, is a multi million dollar footballer With access to prime ministers and

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celebrities and the media, more powerful than an English bobby, in some respects.

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Yeah, an English bobby has the power of the law behind them.

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But how about a white guy in a pub, a tradie in a pub, who is white, who

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insults a multi million dollar footballer?

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Yes.

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They get into an argument and the multi million dollar footballer,

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Sam Kerr, if she'd insulted Just a working white, a white working

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class man in the pub, for example.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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Who doesn't have the power of the police force behind him.

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Yes.

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you know, the argument would be by these people running this line is, let's

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say she insulted a white, the white taxi driver, not the white, Policeman.

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Yeah.

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The argument would be, well, he's just part of the institution of white people

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that's privileged, and therefore, whether he knows it or not, he's wielding

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institutional power that she doesn't have.

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And you know what?

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People are going to get really pissed with that sort of argument.

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When they are of the working class, they don't see any institution that

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they're part of, and Well, they're standing up for them, correct.

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Yeah.

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It's, it's a, it's a hurdle that people are wanting to throw in, that I think is

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really only needed when you're looking at the legal issue, when you're looking

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at extra penalties, and you're trying to find something worthy of extra penalty.

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But for the general notion of a racist act, I think it's a mistake

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what these people are doing.

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So, um, actually I've got a clip here, Joe.

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so, Milwaukee Rites, 2016.

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Angry crowds took to the streets in Milwaukee on a Sunday night to protest

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the shooting death of an armed man by a police officer hours earlier.

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So, this was obviously a black man I think, shot by police officers, so,

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let's just play, actually, I've gotta, because I got bounced out of there,

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I've gotta put that back up, play this clip, and, here we go, play this.

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Hey, white!

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There's no white person!

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Right here!

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Hey, white, get that ass!

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Run, nigga!

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Burn that bitch up!

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Hey!

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Hey, they beatin up every white person!

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They jumpin at every white person!

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Man, no white person come down on Charmin!

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Right here!

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He white!

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BBC!

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Bitch!

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A crowd of rioters looking for white people to beat up, Joe.

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But if they don't have institutional power, it's not a racist act.

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does Bob have institutional power?

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Certainly has power.

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Yeah, well, the definition these people are using is, is institutional power.

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And if you're just going to talk about power of any sort, it gets

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very hazy as to, as to power.

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It's, it really complicates the issue.

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Anyway, just for some, some light relief in the middle of this, from

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the shovel, Matilda's captain, Sam Kerr, has been honoured for her unique

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contribution to Australian culture after she got shitfaced, chucked up in a cab,

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disputed the fair, and then called an English cop a stupid white bastard.

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Nothing exemplifies the Australian spirit better than getting munted and then

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picking a fight with law enforcement.

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It's what this country was built on, a spokesman for Australian

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of the Year Awards said.

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People do need to take a bit of a step back on this one at some point

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and go, it's pretty poor behaviour.

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To get shitfaced and throw up in a cab, and, and then start arguing with

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people, like You see a lot of comments by ex taxi drivers saying what a pain

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in the ass it is when it happens, it disrupts their income for the trip,

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it's impossible to get the smell out fully, and a multi million dollar

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soccer player should be effusively apologetic, and People are wanting to

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stand up for her in this situation.

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Kind of, just, remember, that's actually what happened.

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Yeah.

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When you, So, so, a, a privileged person who's earning millions of

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dollars has ruined the evening's takings of a working person.

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Yes.

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yeah, take, take colourist skin out of it.

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Let's, let's stop being racist and talk about colours.

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Let's just talk about these people.

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Yeah.

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Really shitty behaviour.

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Yes.

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bear all that in mind.

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so Michael Bradley writes for, he's from Markey Lawyers, he writes a lot

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in Crikey, and um, he says that, he runs the legal argument that, It's

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not racism, let me just find the relevant part here, He says, let's get

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directly to the heart of the matter.

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It's no defence to a charge of racial vilification to point to the literal

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truth of the racist words you've said.

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Use brown or yellow as a personal descriptor, and yep, that's racist.

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So does the same apply to white?

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As one conservative commentator insisted, if you're okay with what Kerr said, you

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need to genuinely be okay with a white guy calling someone a stupid black bastard.

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And you might be, but you need to be consistent.

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So, conservative commentator says, if you're okay with what Kerr said, then you

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should be okay with somebody, a white guy calling someone a stupid black bastard.

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And, and the writer, Michael Bradley says, Well, white man, no you don't.

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There's legal precedent for why you're talking about two unrelated

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things which only reflects the simple truth that really gets your goat.

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Reverse racism is not a thing.

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and then he talks about, this case of, A Samantha Power visiting her partner

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in a prison, and when she was refused entry, allegedly expressed her unhappiness

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by calling a police officer, a prison officer, a fucking white piece of shit.

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And the officer claimed he'd been racially vilified, and that was rejected

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by the Federal Magistrates Court.

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Ian Bradley says, that's similar to the UK offence.

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It was essential to the charge that powers abuse of the officer

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had been done because of his race, colour or national or ethnic origin.

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The judge ruled that being white, per se, is not descriptive of any particular

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ethnic, national or racial group, nor is it of itself a term of abuse.

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White people are the dominant people historically and

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culturally within Australia.

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They are not in any sense an oppressed group whose political

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and civil rights are under threat.

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And, so, Radley says, I don't know historically.

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For a very, very small period.

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Yeah, we're saying that the Aboriginals have been here for 40, 000 years.

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White people have been dominant for 200 of them.

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Yes.

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And not even.

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Mm.

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Mm hmm.

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Um, he goes here, The law of race hate was invented to combat actual

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racism and its toxic social effects.

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Yes.

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White people in the UK, as in Australia, have never been

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the victims of actual racism.

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The privilege afforded by their skin remains intact.

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And he says, That Kerr's undoubted hostility towards his police officer was

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not because of his race, whatever his race may be, could be anything from French

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Canadian to lower Slobovian, is surely beneath our dignity to have to explain.

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Nevertheless, it is apparently a terribly difficult thing for many

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white people to get their heads around.

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As they melodramatically insist that all lives matter.

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Like men's rights activists, they shout at the passing clouds of progress, unwilling

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or more likely, unable to understand, that the loss of privilege that equality

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requires is not a loss to mourn or fear.

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And yet they fear.

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And we get stupidites like this.

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I hope the English court gives Constable Snowflake the justice he deserves.

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Joe, just the tone of this, where he says, Well, white man, no you don't.

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And he says Surely it's beneath our dignity to have to explain this and saying

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things like, we get stupidites like this.

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This looking down on people, Joe, because they're trying to start with

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a basic understanding of, well, things should just apply equally, and why

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wouldn't this apply equally racially?

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And the dismissive, tone of it irks me and irked a lot of commentators.

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That, that sort of.

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Let me tell you, stupid racist white man, what's really going on here.

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Really condescending, I guess is the word I'm looking for.

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So, So, I mean, so black is not a race anymore than white is not a race.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Exactly.

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It is not a race either.

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But, yeah.

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I mean, the fact that she needed to point out skin colour, you

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know, had she gone for gender?

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Would that be a sexist remark, you stupid man?

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Yeah.

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You know, it's all so trivial.

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Like, at the end of the day, it's, it doesn't deserve any extra penalty

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in my mind because it's so trivial.

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Who cares?

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But if you're just looking at definitions But in the UK it is,

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it is, worthy of special penalties.

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Right, yes.

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Because they are cracking down on any form of offence.

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Yes.

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And, you know, if you're wanting to stamp out Racism against black

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and brown people, and yellow people, and whatever colour people.

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Then, you're doing a disservice to the cause if you start nitpicking

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when it turns out the other way.

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It's, it's, it, it reduces the cause.

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I think just saying, look, you can't comment on somebody's

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colour of their skin.

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You can't comment on, what's between their legs.

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You know, those are just off the table, as far as insults are concerned.

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You can call them other things, but And you know, what we should

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be saying is, that's really poor form, in terms of social cohesion.

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You know, in most cases, completely doesn't warrant some

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sort of penalty of any sort.

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But we should all be turning our nose up at it and going, that's really poor form.

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Like, that's, that's not good.

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And, and Aye.

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I know someone who gets upset whenever the terms idiot or moron or retard are used.

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Yes.

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Retard is common, but idiot or moron, because they have

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historically laden prejudices.

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Hmm.

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and she gets very offended every time.

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Well, it used to be, Joe, it was an insult to call somebody spastic at one stage.

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Yes.

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And then, you know, people suffering from various Um, disabilities would go,

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hang on a minute, we don't want that, that's actually really offensive to use

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that term, because that's me, and so, and, and you know, we, we as a society,

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if we hear that, should be going, come on, that's not right, cut that out, we

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don't want to hear that, but actually, you know, charging somebody with some

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extra penalty as a result of it, I don't think so, but, I'll move on.

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So, in Crikey.

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By the way, dear listener, there's a special on Crikey

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subscriptions, so look into that.

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Contact me if you want to know what the code is, if you're

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interested in a Crikey subscription.

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but they have a great comments section down below.

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So this particular article had like 165 comments underneath and one of the top

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ones was, was by this guy Joe F who wrote, referring to Michael Bradley's article.

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If I ever have to explain why my fellow progressives sometimes annoy me, I might

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just provide this article as evidence.

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There's always nuance.

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My students of Indian heritage were chatting with me the other day about

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how racist their parents are towards those with darker complexions.

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They think it's funny that the dominant attitude is that you

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have to be white to be racist.

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Maybe this article was meant to be sarcasm.

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That's a good point.

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Indians, racist towards other Indians.

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Oh, the caste system is awful in India.

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Yes.

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but, and this just seemed to be darker complexion.

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It's not even related to caste.

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So, is it racism?

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Because they're probably of the same, you know, but race is a social construct.

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It's so annoyingly, difficult.

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Another guy wrote here.

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Yep.

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And this sort of nauseating, smug, do as we lecture you not as we show you

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hypocrisy from society's rich, privileged, tertiary educated, white knowledge class

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is the key reason societies not rich, not privileged, not tertiary educated, white

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working and underclasses vote for the destructive impostors like Donald Trump.

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Hell, rub my face in too much of this patronising double standard junk

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and I might vote for Trump just to wipe the condescending hypocritical

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smirk off this odious overpaid little ambulance chaser's gurning dial.

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So, colourful language, Joe, but I get the point about, the smug, condescending

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It's the basket of deplorables.

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It is.

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It is the basket of deplorables, yeah.

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Yeah.

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yeah.

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No, further on, I think the same guy responding after

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somebody then responded to him.

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He goes, But I'm a white, mostly straight, middle aged man, and Sam is a

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female lesbian of some Indian heritage.

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So I have patriarchal institutional power and she's an oppressed minority.

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So she gets a free pass from Mike for what is, whatever way you cut it, lousy

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behaviour with a racially abusive element.

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Let's put a statue up to it.

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Can you not grasp why people like me have no faith in privileged progressives,

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people like Bradley, and the elite civic systems, which are, admirably, and

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rightly supposed to be progressive too, and are flailing around for political

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alternatives that don't rub our faces in partisan driven double standards.

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and, yeah.

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Oh, and there was another argument that went running

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through this comments section.

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people were referring to the dictionary definition, which was basically exhibiting

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prejudice against another person or group because of their Based on their skills?

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Yes.

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Um, and these people were saying, Well, you just You know, the

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dictionary definition doesn't matter.

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It is the legal definition that matters.

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It is what groups like the Human Rights Commission use.

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You're just using an unsophisticated, amateurish understanding of

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racism, and that's not what it is.

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And this person's saying, well, a dictionary is describing what

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the understood use of a term is.

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It's not It's, it's descriptive, it's not prescriptive, it's not telling

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people what racism should mean.

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It's saying what people understand racism to be, and and these people

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are just being dismissed in these comments as just dumb hicks for

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relying on a dictionary definition.

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And it just gets back to my original point at the beginning of the spiel, which

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is, People have a simple understanding of what racism is, basic prejudice

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based on skin colour, and in those additional requirements of institutional

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power are handy if you're wanting to impose penalties on people because

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you really want something substantive if you're going to impose a penalty.

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And I think what's happening is people in the business of of arguing against racism.

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They really concentrate a lot on unintended racism that permeates through

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systemic power that we don't even see.

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And I get that, you know, you would want to emphasize that.

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You shouldn't need it.

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Actually, I've got a summation here and then once I finish

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this, I'll go on to the comments.

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So here's, here's my summation.

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Discriminating against people based on an inherent characteristic is unfair.

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Racist acts can be systemic or or can be individual.

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Doing it systemically or ad hoc, both are unfair.

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The racist may be powerful or not.

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In either case, the act is racism.

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Defining racism as needing a power component is useful when defining

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aggravating circumstances where you need to find serious conduct,

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not just trivial, in order to justify a greater legal penalty.

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It might also be useful for the Human Rights Commission, which would

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want to disregard trivial matters.

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But that is different to everyday discourse about what constitutes

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inappropriate behaviour.

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Why would you want to give a free pass to some racist behaviour if

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you are trying to discourage it?

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By all means, highlight systemic covert racism and highlight power imbalances,

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but don't insert them as necessary elements in a broader, non legal context.

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Elites are lecturing to people that Kerr's racism is not so

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bad because of technicalities.

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People might excuse it because of triviality, but they won't accept

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the technicalities that appear to a.

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breach the principle that the law should apply equally to everyone, and b.

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ascribe institutional power and privilege to working class white people

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who correctly see themselves as not enjoying any such privileges, and c.

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ignore evidence that some members of minority groups enjoy enormous

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privilege in excess of the so called majority privilege class.

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There you go.

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There's a rant, right?

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What's in the chat room?

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Joe let's see what lies there.

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Good evening.

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Whatley says, conveniently refined to suit woke ideology.

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Alison says, I presume she was affected by alcohol.

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Is, didn't she throw up in the taxi?

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So whatever she said.

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So the cop was drunk talk anyway.

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Yes, Ian Whatley says Redhead's a fair game for mockery, for some unknown reason.

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Okay.

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The reason is, Whatley, is because gingers have no soul.

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And therefore can't be insulted.

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Have no soul?

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Where does that come from?

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Have no soul.

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Right.

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Yes.

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Do you not know this?

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No.

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Okay.

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Rangers have got no soul.

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Oh, there we go.

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Are you a redhead, Wattley, by any chance?

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You're often quite angry.

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You're angry enough, Wattley, to be a redhead.

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Might explain something.

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I'm a ginger.

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I'm just bald, but True.

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Yeah, you are that sort of gingery colour, yeah.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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As Tim Mitchin says, only a ginger can call another ginger ginger.

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Did he say that?

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Have you not heard his song Prejudice?

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No.

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Oh, okay.

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So, he had a song comparing things that went together, and one of the lines

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he had written with an Australian view of a certain word that begins with the

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letter N, and said he hadn't realised the strength of feeling it engendered

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in America, and was called out on it.

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And so he went off and wrote this song called Prejudice.

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And I think you need to go and listen to the song.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Prejudice by Tim Tim Minchin.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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By the way, Anthony Mundine, he didn't think it was, racism when

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Ezra Mann was called a monkey.

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And he said that, I mean, it ain't racism when two brothers are brown or

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blackfellas, you can slur each other.

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You can call them a Black C or a this and a that.

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That's what they are.

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It's like African American and another African American

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calling each other the N word.

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And he says, I think they ought to toughen up.

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It's not racism.

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Ah, there we go.

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What else have we got here?

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Alright, that's the racism and our sporting stars providing

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some food for thought there.

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You 8.

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45, Joe.

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15 minutes left.

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let's do, there's been an ASEAN conference.

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The Malaysian PM talking about China.

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he despaired at the rising tide of China phobia.

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And, he said, the international community was eager to see a return to

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friendlier ties between the US and China.

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I sense that some countries just cannot accept the fact that you

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have another superpower emerging.

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I don't have that problem.

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He says force is being used by the United States in their foreign

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policy more than any other country for the right and wrong reasons.

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And most often, in the case of Iraq and Afghanistan, the

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consensus is for the wrong reasons.

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And,

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that was him.

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Let me just see.

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Ah, Keating's had a go at Penny Wong again about foreign relations.

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I think, Joe, let's talk about nuclear for the last 15 minutes.

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So, ah, is Di Straits in the chat room?

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Because he's always been on about these small nuclear reactors.

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Oh, SMRs, yes.

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Yeah, that don't exist.

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And so, so Dutton was, has been criticised that in the Dunkley by

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election the Liberals had no policy, and he's basically, he and his, you know,

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shadow energy minister have announced that the Liberals are all in on, on

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nuclear power, both small and large, and in saying that, Australia could have

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nuclear power operating within ten years.

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Basically they want to build it on the same site as the coal fired plant.

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Yes, yes, and every expert put out by, by any media organisation is just

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calling BS on the idea and saying that we have zero experience when it

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comes to operating nuclear facilities.

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Even if you looked at countries that do it all the time, they couldn't get a nuclear

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reactor up and running in 10 years.

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And, and we'd be starting from scratch.

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We've got state governments who are against it.

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And so just the, we've got no regulations to deal with it.

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They would all have to be drafted up.

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And no company is going to stump up the investment for this.

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Let's just say Dutton got in at the next election because they'd be thinking, well,

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in three years time, Dutton could be gone.

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A Labor government comes in and cancels the whole project.

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So no nuclear finance group operator would enter this with any certainty.

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that the project will continue, through successive different governments.

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It's complete pie in the sky.

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Add to that, it's incredibly expensive and, it just makes no sense at any level

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whatsoever, except if you're wanting to keep fossil fuels going as long as

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possible, because you would be arguing we don't have to do anything Because

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we'll just wait until all this great nuclear comes on board in 10 years.

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And the other option would be, the sort of, the big end of town gets

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to run these nuclear facilities and presumably enjoy government subsidies

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to run them and exercise power.

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One of the things about having all this rooftop solar is it's taking power

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generation out of centralised businesses And distributing the power so that

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business has less, political power than it did previously, because, every mum

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and dad has a sort of a stake in it.

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So, Joe, any thoughts on, on the just pathetic nature of

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Peter Dutton and this proposal?

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it's, it's obvious that, he's been Advised by the fossil fuel industry.

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It's the only reason, that he could be putting this forward.

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as far as I know, the only reason you'd want to build nuclear reactors

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is to enrich uranium for weapons.

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in this day and age, you're, you know, it was a great technology back in the 1960s.

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we have new technologies that are better.

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They're talking about, the UK, which is nowhere near as blessed as us, are having

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problems getting nuclear on stream.

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and the long term is going to be renewables, pumped hydro, and peaking gas.

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so we will be using gas for, the foreseeable future, but only

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as a backup in the rare cases where we don't have enough.

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Wind and sun, and stored energy in terms of pumped hydro and whatever

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battery technologies come along.

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Hmm, you know, it might be a completely different scenario in other countries,

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but for Australia with our enormous landmass, our plentiful sun and wind, it

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makes absolutely no sense economically for us to go down this pathway.

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And, you know, it's again pandering to that sort of outer regional

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electorate, non university educated, culture war sort of argument.

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But the Liberals need to win back the Teal seats that, They've

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lost and they're not going to do it with a nuclear power policy.

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No.

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They're just going to be in the wilderness forever if they keep doing this.

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so I think they just You know, maybe they're hoping to get the

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coal mining seats with a dream of that they're going to set up nuclear

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power instead and these people are going to get employment and that.

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I think you'd be much better off with a what other industry can we

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build up for the miners to move into?

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Hmm.

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and preferably out in remote areas so that, because a lot of these towns are

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going mining is our lifeblood and if the miners move away, what do we do?

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Yes.

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Yeah, but, you know, there's also a lot of these towns are getting gentrified as

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well with people sort of tree huggers sort of moving out of Sydney and other areas

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into there, and, you know, how many people are actually employed in these mines

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sometimes is another question, so Well, the WA mines are more and more automated.

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Mm.

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You know, all the trucks are run automatically from

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a control centre in Perth.

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And where you've got camps, fly in, fly out workers, staying at

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campsites, you know, not a lot of action might happen in a lot of

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communities as a result of the mine, so.

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Yeah, insanely stupid and, that's the best they can do.

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The calibre of thinking in the Liberal Party is just appalling.

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They're really just moving, they're just trying to move into the Nationals

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territory, really, aren't they?

Speaker:

They're sort of geographically, heading into that sort of territory,

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and just leaving the cities to the Labor and, and the Greens.

Speaker:

I was going to say, do the farmers even want nuclear?

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No, I wouldn't think they would.

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Like, I was, when I was in Japan, my wife and I were walking down the street

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and all of a sudden there was this crowd of people and they were looking at this

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department store window and everyone was just stopped looking at it and we

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couldn't work out what was going on.

Speaker:

And, and then, like the Japanese are always very still and very, well, they're

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just always polite and Undemonstrative.

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And it was kind of like everyone was kind of silent and then

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they all just disappeared.

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And we just sort of tried to grab somebody and said, what was all that about?

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And it turned out it was a minute's silence marking the, the disaster of,

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of the most recent, nuclear, you know, where that tsunami had caused the damage

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to the nuclear plant and, and all that.

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So they were sort of commemorating it.

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Yeah.

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I think that was it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It was happening while we were in Japan at the time, so, yeah.

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Crazy.

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But again, there's been a knee jerk response to shut down nuclear power

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stations that are effective and are running, which I think, you know,

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Germany has shut down a whole bunch of nuclear power stations and had

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to turn back on coal generation.

Speaker:

Hmm.

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So, so that's a bad thing.

Speaker:

You know, shutting down existing nuclear reactors isn't

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necessarily the best outcome.

Speaker:

But certainly building new ones is, is ridiculous.

Speaker:

and Fukushima just goes to show that the amount of devastation, the amount

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of damage to the area and the impact that that has had If that had been a

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coal fired power station, the, the, radioactive tailings, the poisonous ash

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would've been spread across a wide area.

Speaker:

Mm-Hmm.

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So, it, it's not been great.

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But realistically, in terms of the environmental damage, the

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disaster, given the size of that accident, it's been incredibly low.

Speaker:

Mm-Hmm, , so the impact has been negligible.

Speaker:

they are relatively safe technology.

Speaker:

So it's not nuclear is bad, nuclear is the devil, it's just we have better

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alternatives and why are we going down this antiquated technology path?

Speaker:

Yeah, yep.

Speaker:

Right, so we've nearly come up to an hour.

Speaker:

I could go on to other things but, I think I might make this a, a briefer one.

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let me see.

Speaker:

okay.

Speaker:

Yes, he is a redhead, apparently.

Speaker:

He is, he's a ragger.

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There we go, that explains a lot, so, yeah.

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and he also says Nationals don't listen to farmers, just the corporations.

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Yeah, I think that's true.

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Right, dear listener, don't know what happened to Scott.

Speaker:

Hopefully he's okay, maybe he's just come down with a bit of

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a bug or something like that.

Speaker:

So, we'll see him next week, I would assume.

Speaker:

wish me well as I undergo some more wonderful anesthetic tomorrow

Speaker:

morning and, I'll be hobbling around with a stocking on my leg.

Speaker:

But, yeah, see how that goes.

Speaker:

Thanks for tuning in.

Speaker:

We'll talk to you next week.

Speaker:

Bye for now.

Speaker:

And it's a good night for him.

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