The Love Hypothesis by Ali Hazelwood: Science, Sex, and Spreadsheets

Artwork for podcast First Dates & Soulmates: A Romance Podcast

23rd April 2025 • First Dates & Soulmates: A Romance Podcast • Meg Casebolt & Nikki McKnight

Meg: Welcome to First Dates and Soulmates, where love is the greatest experiment of them all. I'm your host, Meg Casebolt,

Nikki: And I am Nikki McKnight.

Meg: today we're going to be talking about fake dating. Beloved book The Love Hypothesis by Ellie Hazelwood. Nikki, you hadn't read this before. What were your initial thoughts?

Nikki: I had not read this before. So my, the only Ali Hazelwood book I think I've read before this was Bride, which her Supernatural one or Paranormal one, which we did an episode on last

Meg: Very different.

Nikki: So I had heard this name again, as you said in our last episode, when you Google or look on Reddit for like fake dating romance, this is kind of like, this is it.

Meg: Yeah.

Nikki: is, this is the book you read. Um, so I, I have a physical copy

Meg: Me.

Nikki: oh my God. We're both holding up gigantic books.

Meg: They are so huge. The the sIX by nine like format feels so big relative to the mass market paperback.

Nikki: look like this is my iPad, which I read everything on and really they're about the same size, but like my tiny ass hands, uh, trouble holding this. Um, so I got it from the library and from the prologue I was like, holy shit, I love this book. So I actually really liked it. Um. I loved the main characters. I loved the prose. I think Allie Hazelwood is really great at writing tight little moments that just resonate throughout the rest of the book. So I thought there were such great moments in here. I have some thoughts on like when the relationship actually flipped from fake to real ish that I would love to discuss. But overall, really liked it. I was very satisfied with this

Meg: I am so glad to hear you say that because the first time I read it I was under impressed, and this time with the reread, I liked it a lot better.

Nikki: Oh, interesting. So when did you first read it compared to

was, uh, this was released in: 2021

She has several other books that are set in the STEM academia space. Um. And that's sort of how she came out. That was her, her original positioning is, you know, the STEMIs does. Right. Um, and this as her debut novel. Um, it's a fake relationship between a graduate student and an adjunct professor, um, where they, they're working in the biology lab together. They're sort of in this academic space.

Nikki: But they are not really connected. So the student teacher aspect is okay.

Meg: And I love that. Be like she, okay, so she kisses him and then the next time that she sees him, he's like, listen, I talked to the dean. It's fine if we wanna date, right? Like, I don't, I don't oversee you in any way. We don't, I'm not on your PhD committee. I will rescind myself from any questions about your dissertation.

Like, this is okay if you wanna do this.

Nikki: they had that. They cleared that up right away. Uh, very satisfying for me.

Meg: I did that

Nikki: with your log line. I was just like, thank God.

Meg: when I read this in: 2022

Um. So I probably read this, I don't know, 20 22, 20 23. I could probably go look it up in my Libby app. Um, it's one of the things that, you know, multiple people recommended it to me and I was like, okay, I'll read it. It is, um, it did start as relo Fanfic, which you can see from the cover that this, this, Adam is Adam driver, right?

Very clear.

Nikki: God. I forgot that because you mentioned way back when we talked about this, that this did start as Relo Fanfic, and I completely forgot.

Meg: It doesn't feel like relo Fanfic anymore,

Nikki: reading it, it does not feel like it

Meg: but you look at this and you're like, yeah, I'm sure she did some heavy edits. It's, it couldn't be more relo on the cover, which I think is part of the reason that people are picking it up is it felt like something that they knew. Um. So I read this and I liked it, but I did not love it as a reader then.

Um, and I think part of it is, um, Elie Hazelwood's voice in the character of Olive feels so insecure that I didn't know if it was author voice or character tone.

Nikki: Ooh, interesting

Meg: And now that I've read other Ellie Hazelwood books and I know what she's capable of, I'm like, oh, this is just a character with social anxiety.

This isn't a reflection on her writing skills.

Nikki: Mm-hmm.

Meg: But as a reader, I couldn't tell that from the debut novel,

Nikki: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Meg: it's single person, POV.

Nikki: Yeah. Is it, I don't remember.

Meg: Yeah, there's,

Nikki: really pay

Meg: we never get Adam's POV. It's only, it's only olives. And I've said before that as soon as I pick up an MF book where it's only the female POV and it's this brooding hero, immediately I'm like, oh. He is in love with her already. He

Nikki: whole

Meg: is been in love the whole time. I get so.

Nikki: And surprise, surprise, been in love with her the whole

Meg: And I think part of the reason that I resisted this book and maybe didn't have as kind of feelings about it after the first read is I'd read enough of this single like kind of quirky heroine who was oblivious to the signs that were obvious to the reader because we, as the reader should be able to pick up the signs that the heroin is missing.

Nikki: Mm-hmm.

Meg: But I think I just read too many books that that leaned upon this too heavily. Um, so going back to it now with a bit of distance from it, I enjoyed it so much more As part of the Ellie Hazelwood experience and not the debut novel, who defines everything that she does from here on out?

Nikki: Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, I was like, where do we even wanna dive in? 'cause I have so much, I think to like. Say with this

Meg: All right, so here's a quick summary. Um, olive Smith is our protagonist. She is a, uh, graduate student who is very isolated. She doesn't have a big family. Her mother passed away when she was a teenager, and now she, you know, she's Canadian, which I hope you enjoyed. Um.

Nikki: from Toronto.

Meg: Exactly, and she goes, she's a student, a graduate student at Stanford, and she has basically two friends.

One is on the other is her roommate Malcolm. And she feels very isolated and very concerned about people pleasing because she is so isolated, because she doesn't have a support network to lean on. She's very concerned about making sure that on is happy and on her friend. Um. Has a crush on a guy that she used to date and broke up with, and Anne doesn't want to date Jeremy because she thinks that that Olive might, um, might have a problem with it.

So Olive just kisses someone in the hallway. To prove to, um, that she has moved on from Jeremy. Um, and that person is Dr. Adam Carlson, who is the grumpy ass professor that everyone hates. Everyone is maybe not hate everyone is afraid of because he is blunt. Um, he read to me like he might be on the autism spectrum, where he's much more concerned about, um, you know, getting things correct than he is about people's feelings and.

Olive is shocked when he sort of says, yeah, okay, we can fake date if that makes your friend happy.

Nikki: Mm-hmm.

Meg: Um, and so by the, by the time that they have that conversation, the entire biology department is a Twitter with the news that, oh my gosh, Dr. Carlson is dating someone. How could he date someone? How could, who would even date him?

He's this like superstar. No one's in his league, but also he's very unlikable. So how does.

Nikki: So how could Olive even stoop so low to date him?

Meg: Right, but also he's stooping low because he's got all these credentials behind his name and she's just a lowly graduate student student. Um, and so they sort of keep getting thrust together in all these different ways that work really well in fake dating.

Um, and over time they start to develop feelings for each other and, uh, it impacts both of their careers. It impacts their workplace. Um. And there is a lot of fallout that comes along with this, and it's, it's another one of those situations, you know, like we've been talking about with the fake dating trope where Olive makes one mistake and then just keeps digging it deeper.

And Adam doesn't seem to have any skin in the game for a while, or he's not nearly as invested as she is. Um, we, you know, there's the, the piece where it's like, oh, they, the university hasn't released my funds 'cause they think I'm gonna leave Stanford. That's the only real side of the equation that he has.

Whereas Olive is deeply vulnerable in this relationship. Um.

Nikki: that whole in the, like the inciting incident of the deal, right? This, this idea that we talked about, that fake dating, like there has to be benefit on both sides because it's an agreement that both sides are actively engaging and consenting to entering into, so. For Olive. It was like, I don't want on to feel like she's, he's like, I've told on, I am not interested. She doesn't believe me 'cause hashtag girl code. Um, so I just need to prove to her that, yeah, I'm with someone else, please. I think, I think they'd be great together. I need her to fucking date this guy. And then him. Yeah, we find out later. He's been in love the whole time and that's kind of why he says yes.

But the publicly stated reason is the university has cut off my funding because they think I'm going to go to another university next year and they don't wanna give me the money. Now I. I'm just gonna leave. So they're kind of holding my funds up, um, to kind of force the decision. So if I have a girlfriend, then it makes me look like I'm more settled, very similar to like sports pr, fake dating tropes.

I will look settled, um, and like I won't leave university and hopefully by the day the budgets are finalized, September 29th, they will release my funds. Then we can go our separate ways because that will also be long enough for on to have dated Jeremy and they'll just be good and I'll have money and we'll just be good on paper.

I think this works, you're, it's when you add in the, the later thing of like, he's been in love the whole time and you look back in, in retrospectively on this, this makes no sense. Like there's no sense.

Meg: I mean, I guess if, if I were writing from his perspective in that moment, I would say, this is the best I'm gonna get. I may as well make the most of it. You know, this is an opportunity for this girl that I've had, this sort of, I, I met her in a bathroom three years ago. She didn't look at me. I thought she was adorable.

I've been watching her from afar, but she's not in my lab. I don't have a reason to talk to her. And now this opportunity sort of fell in my lap

Nikki: Mm-hmm.

Meg: I will. But she's skittish Olive's, a very nervous, um, very socially awkward character, and he doesn't wanna scare her off. So I think once we know that about Adam is that he is actually this little marshmallow.

Nikki: Mm-hmm.

Meg: and he sees how scared she is by even some of these initial conversations. She's intimidated by him, so putting a deadline on it is his way of saying. Okay. This is a short term thing because he knows that she needs the short term thing more than he does.

Nikki: When you first read this, did you know that he was in love with her the whole

Meg: Yeah.

Nikki: I did not

Meg: From the prologue.

Nikki: Yeah. I had no idea. I, for me, when he, when it finally does come out, 'cause it's, it's his friends that tell

Meg: Mm-hmm.

Nikki: He's been obsessed with you for the past three years. I never felt like he was in love with her the whole time, or was obsessed with her.

I thought like he's like, oh, like I thought he was kind of like intrigued, like, who is this thing? But when I read it, it really felt like their relationship was developing at the same time that they both just like up in love. By the end of it, I didn't get the feeling that he was in love with her the whole time, which I actually really preferred. Because I think it made his actions as a character through most of the book, make more sense he's just like, this is how I am. And she like softens his edges a little bit. And especially, I, I don't, I, I think if this had been a dual POV book, it would've been worse because I think if, you know from the beginning explicitly that he is in love with her, it loses so much of its tension.

Meg: Yeah, I actually wish it had been the way that you just said it. I wish that the, the prologue didn't exist. I wish that the first time that they met had been the moment that she kissed him and he was really serious about, I'm gonna make a Title IX complaint, and I wish that, correct me off that runner of the Title IX complaint.

Um, I wish that had been how it was, but as soon as I saw in the prologue that she was talking to someone and her contacts were itchy, so she kept her eyes closed. I was like, he's in love with her from here on out.

Nikki: Yeah, so with the prologue she has just shown up at, where are they at Stanford.

Meg: Yeah.

Nikki: Yeah, at Stanford, she's there for like an interview and she's put in contact lenses that expired years ago. So her eyes are irritated, so she escapes into what she thinks is the women's washroom to kind of try and deal with it.

But no, it's the washroom attached to Adam's lab. It's not really a washroom, it's just meant for them to dispose of various chemicals and fluids and whatever. So he's kind of like, who are you and what are you doing here? And again, she's just kind of like anxiously chatting. I'm here, there's an interview.

My eyes, the contacts, they're expired. It's a thing. And she just keeps going on and on and on and on. He's kind of in, in my mind, he was kind of looking at her almost like a, like a, a bug

Meg: Yeah.

Nikki: microscope type of deal. Like, who is this strange creature? And then they do have a moment when she's like, I'm really n like, I don't know how to explain or answer these questions.

And he's like, he kinda asks like, what's your research? Or Why do you wanna come here? And she goes into this very. Job interview. Synergy. Synergy, synergy, growth, growth, growth. And he's like, no, what's the real reason? And she's like, I have a question that I need to find the answer to. He goes, that's the best reason to be in

Meg: Mm-hmm.

Nikki: 'cause it sucks. So that's your best reason. And then like, off they go, and she's never seen him. So when the very next scene opens, it's like mid kiss. Like

Meg: I love that it starts mid kiss.

loved that because I thought it was gonna be like conversation with on, oh my God, how am I gonna do this random dude? Then I kiss. But to start the actual present day chapter, chapter one in media res We are kissing.

Nikki: It was so good because, and we had, because it made the transition from all of not knowing what he, this guy looks like that she met in this bathroom into, she doesn't know that who she's kissing, what he looks like. Surprise. It's the same guy. He knows that she doesn't,

Meg: She doesn't. Yes. So.

Nikki: funny to me.

Meg: The prologue ends with her deciding to go to grad school, and then chapter one starts two years and 11 months later with the sentence in Olive's defense, the man didn't seem to mind the kiss too much

Nikki: That was so good. Oh, that was so funny.

Meg: because I agree with you. And you know, the, there's a, a writing phrase that is, um, start, start late and early.

Nikki: mm-hmm.

Meg: You start later than you think you should in a scene, and then you end earlier. You don't say like, okay, time to get off the phone. Bye. I love you. And then I hung up the phone. You know, like, and in the same way the, the moment to start the scene is not the moment that they walked into the room by going, somebody walked into the room.

Um, unless the fact that they walked into the room is breaking some sort of

Nikki: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Meg: but. Uh, that's part of what makes this work so well is that we, we enter chapter one in the middle of this kiss.

Nikki: Mm-hmm.

Meg: man, she doesn't even know his name. The man didn't mind the kiss.

Nikki: Yeah, so funny. Um, and this, I think the prologue and this opening of the chapter paints a really interesting picture of Olive. I couldn't get a read on her for a really long time that I actually thought maybe she was had autism spectrum disorder.

Meg: Yeah, they're both coded a little bit.

Nikki: yeah, like, so it was interesting to me just because of how she was kind of like babbling. How she goes off on tangents, and is like nervous about public speaking. She's really brilliant. But then she also like can put her head down and like, study, study, scientist, study, study that. It was interesting to me 'cause I couldn't quite get a read on like, is she a good friend?

Meg: Hmm.

Nikki: Is she a good partner in this fake dating it?

I couldn't quite understand where she was going 'cause I couldn't because we, she was such an internal character and we got such great insight into her internal character. I didn't get enough of how she presented externally. Like how do her friends see her? How do her professors see her? Like we know they like and respect her 'cause they're there, but I didn't, I couldn't get a read on how they felt that Olive was progressing through her life. some of her actions, I was like, I don't quite, they weren't fully landing. I understood them, but I don't feel like they landed for me.

Meg: And that was one of my hesitations the first time I read it, is she felt very immature.

Nikki: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Meg: To me, like her decision making skills weren't always adult.

Nikki: Yeah.

Meg: but then as I read it a second time, I was like, oh, there's so much people pleasing going on because she doesn't have the support network That came out to me so strongly the second time around is that Adam is so grounded and he does have the support network, um, and he is well respected and she feels so insecure.

Um, and I mean insecure in terms of her, her emotions, but also like housing insecurity, food insecurity, like she has a lot on the line.

Nikki: Yeah, I, I thought the, like this book had some really great running jokes. Like we talked about Title ix. Title IX is like the, essentially like a sexual harassment suit.

Meg: Um, yes, it's, it's.

Nikki: thing that kind of pro to protect against sexual harassment on

Meg: sexual, uh, it's more of, um, making sure that things are, uh, equal between genders and also that everyone feels safe. So when you often hear about, um, title ix, it's also like women who get the same funding for their sports as men do, or, you know, some of these, these equity issues. Um, but in this case it's a, I'm going to report you for kissing me without my consent.

Is his reaction to being kissed.

Nikki: 'cause she, he was like kind of joking and then she was like, no, please don't, please don't. Actually, you know what, no, you should, you're totally valid. And in doing this, I'm so sorry, but please could you not. And then the, you know, as they kind of fake date and they find themselves in these new situations, like when they go to like the picnic or the outdoor thing. Her friends are like, get him to put sunscreen on you because we just put an obscene amount of sunscreen on you. Um, so then she has to like put sunscreen on his back because, oh my God, he has a 10 pack and he's super jacked as he's playing ultimate Frisbee, that he's like, oh, we're adding this to Title ix, like inappropriate sunscreen application. Like that was just such like a fun runner the whole time, as well as things

Meg: All of her pumpkin spice.

Nikki: her pumpkin spice I thought was so funny, but I agree with. Adam. Pumpkin spice is trash. Uh, it had such great runners. The Title ix, the pumpkin Spice. What was the other big, there was another runner I was just thinking of. Um, now I lost it. But again, just I, I really liked it because it start all of those things, kind of the food insecurity. Sorry, that's what it was. You're gonna pay for my croissant and my sandwich and my ramen. And you, you took my salt and vinegar chips. That was the last bag of salt and vinegar chips in the vending machine.

And you took it. And also I'm gonna take that. And he's like, well, you owe me 50 cents for that half of the chip bag. Um, so just like, I like how those moments help her be more comfortable once she realizes that he's just kind of joking.

Meg: Mm-hmm.

Nikki: Once she kind of gets over the panic of, oh, I'm so sorry. You should really, yes.

Title ix, you should do it. You should do it. I was inappropriate. I'm not gonna tell you not to do that. 'cause that would make me the bad person here. And I did surprise kiss you. Um, just going on and on and

Meg: Yeah. As she starts to realize that he has this dry humor, that's when you start to have these runners come through because he, he does have friends, but she doesn't know them because she only knows grad students and they're all afraid of him. So she doesn't know that there are these other professors that he has fantastic relationships with.

And he, you know, she knows he's respected. He, she doesn't know that he's liked, um. And then she starts to unravel during these weekly coffee dates that, oh, he's actually kind of sweet and pretty funny, but nobody gets to see that side of him because they only see him in an academic environment where he's giving feedback that is blunt but accurate.

Nikki: Mm-hmm.

Meg: and people take it personally, but it's not intended to be personal. And she's starting to see both sides of Adam, um, and. She's pointing out to him what his reputation is and trying to soften him up and, and smooth the edges. But also she's, she's benefiting from the fact that she's dating a scary, well-known, well-respected professor.

Uh, you know, she's like, nobody stole my pipes.

Nikki: Yeah, I got, I didn't have to wait in line for the microscope. This is actually kind of

Meg: Yeah.

Nikki: She's like, I'm taking advantage of this, and I feel kind of bad about it, but also, no,

Meg: But also that that's how I should have been treated anyway from the beginning. And now I'm finally being treated with the respect that I should have gotten on my own but didn't, and didn't demand because of all of these insecurity issues. Um,

Nikki: I thought it was a, a fun scene when they're at their scheduled Wednesday morning. date. 'cause we need to make appearances. As a fake, as fake dating. We should do this every Wednesday at

Meg:: 10:00

Nikki:: 10:00

Meg: And, and I loved where she looks at his calendar over his shoulder and she's like, aren't you gonna put it on there? And he's like, no, I'll remember. Yeah. Like that. Those are the moments where you read it and you're like, oh, he's totally got the hats for her.

Nikki: Um, can we talk about like the in love, the whole time misunderstanding about who she's in love with

Meg: did you first wanna talk about the, the coffee dates?

Nikki: well, that it kind of leads into

Meg: Okay.

Nikki: it's the moment when she's talking to Malcolm about, I have a crush. I'm in love. I don't know what to do. You think I should just tell him uhoh She realizes it's 10 o'clock and

Meg: He is right behind her.

Nikki: but. doesn't take that as a, oh, I just heard Olive is in love with me. He takes it as, oh, olive is in love with someone else and it's not me. And my little baby heart is heartbroken because he is been in love with her the whole

Meg: Mm-hmm.

Nikki: Um,

Meg: And then his friend Holden

Nikki: mm-hmm.

Meg: when he finally meets Olive, like, oh, he's, he's been obsessed with this woman in his department. She's like, oh, it must be someone else.

Nikki: Yeah, it's like the misunderstanding on both sides I, I thought was, it was funny, which again is why I'm happy it was not dual POV 'cause I wanted that as a reveal. Um, so this didn't love the whole time. I think it's so funny that you mentioned that the other week where if it's like, if it's fake dating and it's single POV, the one they were in love the whole time.

Meg: And not even fake dating. I've read so many books where he's, yeah, I've read a lot where, and, and you don't read as much mf. So anytime I open a book that is single. Single POV woman and sort of a grumpy hero. I'm like, Ugh. He's already in love with her.

Nikki: damnit.

Meg: That's the reason that she's here is because he saw her walking across the street into the bar, and he was like, she's mine.

You know,

Nikki: Yeah.

Meg: I've read several so that I just l to it. I don't know.

Nikki: I love it. Um, like for me. I like, talked about this in the trope episode, that's one of my favorite moments is when the switch

Meg: Mm-hmm.

realized it was Wednesday at: 10:00

Meg: Mm-hmm.

Nikki: that she like turned around.

And I can just imagine how this would play in a movie like slow motion turn then like,

Meg: Mm-hmm.

Nikki: you know, cross fade to Adam standing behind her.

Meg: his arms crossed across his chest looking unimpressed.

Nikki: that would be a moment of, oh my God, he heard me say I'm in love with him. But when Adam takes it as she's in love with someone else. I found it interesting that he made that leap. I think it was justified, but I'm also like surprised. But it's, so when that happened, I was like, oh, we must be getting to the end. This must be confession. And then I looked at the physical book I was holding in my hands and I went, oh no, there's still a significant amount of book to go. Where are they going from here?

And then it was, oh, you're in love with someone else. Then he thinks it's Jeremy, right? Like he

Meg: He thinks it's Jeremy. He, he leaps to that conclusion.

Nikki: Yeah, like it was just such a weird moment for me because it felt like it was setting up like a third act confession, but I'm like, no, we're not. We're nowhere near the third act yet.

Meg: Yeah. Did you ever, did you ever read The Hating Game by Salt Lake Thorn?

Nikki: I've seen the movie. I don't, I've either, I, I think I've read the book years ago. I don't,

Meg: But

Nikki: remember the book very well. I remember the movie more.

Meg: feel like the hating game had a very similar, like, they sort of get together at the 50% mark and you're like, is this a whole nother book after this midpoint, turn it. You know, like the, there's the, that like, they finally get together and then they go to his, uh, brother's marrying his ex-fiancee, I am gonna say.

Right.

Nikki: yeah. Yeah.

Meg: Um. But you could sort of get like an entirely new arc in the second half of the book. And I think that this also happens here where she confess, she recognizes her feelings, but she does not confess them to him. Um, and then you get sort of a whole nother arc, which is she gets, you know, her grant proposal gets picked up or she gets to speak at some sort of conference, and then you get a, almost like two halves of the book that come together after that midpoint turn, where suddenly she realizes Adam's on her side.

Nikki: Yeah. Like she, she has to share a room. Only there wasn't only one bed, there was only two double beds,

Meg: Mm-hmm.

Nikki: felt good.

Meg: It did.

Nikki: was not an only one bed. Um, so when they actually, when they, when they hook up for the first time in that hotel room, and that's kind of when the feelings kind of come out and realizing like, oh, this is a, this is about to happen. Looking back at that moment now, knowing that he was in love with her the whole time, it felt really weird to me. Because I felt like the emotional catharsis of them actually starting to have this sexual moment was a little bit like pardon my pun, on one side because it wasn't really a catharsis for him in the same way it was for

Meg: Mm-hmm.

Nikki: Um, I still really liked it though, 'cause. I said, when I wrecked a Lane Hayes book, uh, a couple weeks ago, I love it when a grumpy kind of buttoned up dude gets into the bedroom and buttons fly, literally, metaphorically, all of the similes that it's just like, woo, fanning myself. There is some sexy talk happening.

I was so into that switch, so that was great, but emotionally I was like, this is a weird catharsis emotionally for them.

Meg: You know, and because I knew that he was in love with her, I really liked how resistant he was to pushing her. You know, she had just been sexually harassed, which he didn't know real, I think sexually assaulted technically.

Nikki: would call it an assault.

Meg: Um, and she, you know, she was crying over it and he took her out to dinner and he made her feel better.

And he.

Nikki: sushi

Meg: Yeah, on the conveyor belts, she's so cheesy.

Nikki: Yeah.

Meg: but then she, uh, you know, he makes her feel better. He, he doesn't expect anything from her, even though they're sharing the room. And then he, she sort of asks questions. He lets down his guard and she decides to go for it. And he's like, wait, wait, wait.

No, that wasn't that. You said no sex. You said no sex On page 30, you.

Nikki: Yeah. That was the boundary. Those were the rules we set. According to Meg's framework, there were rules.

Meg: have to be rules. Um, and so I loved that, even though I knew that he had always had feelings for her, her agency always came first.

Nikki: Yeah. Because even when she says to him, uh, she comes out as like, kind of like Demi,

Meg: mm-hmm.

Nikki: that like, I need emotional connection. And she's like, I have had sex before, but I haven't like really done this a lot. So he's like, are you

Meg: Yeah.

Nikki: And he, they, they do it and then she is uncomfortable and he goes, we're done.

She goes, no, for fuck's sake, like can we? I am telling you. Yes. So I love that he kept checking in with her, but I love that she was also like, I thank you, thank you so much. We love consent. We stand a consent king, but for fuck's sake, get on with it. I was like, thank you.

Meg: Um, I, when, especially when I read mf, I like to track, um, the, the. Touchpoint of physical connection in my mind,

Nikki: nudge, nudge.

Meg: no. But I,

Nikki: my eyebrows. For those of you not watching them.

Meg: um, but I, I've seen this framework was like the first thing that you do is you, you do eye to eye contact, right? And then eye to hand or, or hand to hand. And you sort of like, you, God.

Nikki: so sorry. I went dick to dick,

Meg: Yeah. No, but no, it does. It, it's ha it goes down and it's like, you know, body to body, skin to skin. And then there's hand to genital, genital to genital. Like there's, there's a framework that you follow that often gets skipped around in. Mm. Um, and mf it much more likely follows that process. I can put the link to this.

It's like a seven step.

Nikki: I was like, please put this in because now I'm thinking of the scene in friends when Monica and Rachel are teaching the guys

Meg: of the, um,

Nikki: sex. the different, like 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 5, and then like Monica, fake orgasms. Like that's immediately where my brain, I'm sorry. I'm just, I'm just, I'm flying off the handle here.

I'm so hot and bothered. Let's put it that way.

Meg: but I, I feel like this is such a, I don't usually like a slow burn.

Nikki: Mm-hmm.

Meg: Um, and Olive is so awkward. She needs it to be slow paced. She needs it to be a slow burn. It works for me. There's a part of me that's like, we get one sex scene in how many hundreds of pages. We get over 300 pages, we get one sex scene. Um, and it works.

And I think it works, especially as a debut novel, traditionally published. It was sort of like, it's steamy, but it's not too sexy. Um, but um. I wanna hear from you because you said you really like the sex scene and you don't usually like it about sex scenes, so I'm

Nikki: and I think part of it is because I really do like slow burn.

Meg: Mm.

Nikki: yearning is one of my favorite, like emotional feelings. And I felt like that was so well structured in here that by the time they did have sex, um, in, um, in the hotel, at the conference, like again, I, I wish the catharsis had been played out slightly differently. But like, it felt like the right move for them. It felt like it had built very naturally, uh, to that for, for both of them. Again, at this point I'm still thinking Adam hasn't been in love with her the whole time. I'm thinking he's been progressing about, you know, about the same rate, more or less. Um, so I really liked it. I loved how Adam's, again, I love that switch in personality from grumpy, you know, grumpy in the streets to devil in the sheets. Love that. Love that. Love that. It was so good. But also I think because how Ali Hazelwood wrote the sex scene from, the focus wasn't on body parts and fluids, which is what I don't love. It made sense it was more how, how do I explain this? It was like sensory, not, not erotic, if that

Meg: Yeah, I think you can say like it was, it was the emotional beats and the reaction to what was happening versus like, he put this here, this body part happened here. We laid in this order, in this, you know, this position.

Nikki: like the, all the, the various descriptions for, for body parts. in MF really gross me out in terms of fluid and, and wet and turgid and bratwurst to quote 10 things I hate about

Meg: that's kind of funny too because like he, he comes inside her and then he goes back down on her. And I feel like that's a very, that's a choice.

Nikki: I, but I think of like, maybe it was just how it was described. It. It was nice.

Meg: of it is that all, we're still in Olive's perspective, and she is so, I don't wanna say sheltered, but her, her way of speaking about it is like, oh, you know, like she does a lot of those like, oh, you know.

Nikki: true. Because I think if we had been in

Head, head not his little head, his big head. Um, at that time I think it would've been a lot dirtier

Meg: Mm-hmm.

Nikki: very focused on physical sensation. Like still with like, I think the romance in there. 'cause I do think that's who Adam is. But I think a male perspective on an MF sex scene is not one that I like to have.

Meg: Interesting.

Nikki: I don't love that. Um,

Meg: say I found the 12 stages of physical intimacy. I'm gonna run through 'em really quickly and then we'll put this blog post into the show notes. Um, one eye to body, two. Eye to eye, three voice to voice. Four hand to hand, five arm to shoulder, six arm to waist or back. Seven, mouth to mouth, eight hand to head, nine hand to body, 10 mouth to breast, 11 hand to genitals, and 12 genitals to genitals.

Nikki: I like it. It's a progression That makes sense to me.

Meg: Right? And so often we, you can actually like you, you can't track it. It doesn't usually follow that sort of linear perspective, but that idea that the physical touch gets more intense as you go through. Um. Versus here. This one actually starts with mouth to mouth, and then they're like, oh, and I don't actually wanna sit on your lap or touch you with sunscreen.

Nikki: Yeah. Or no? Now I should actually look you in the eye

Meg: Yeah.

Nikki: who the hell I'm kissing. We've got back a step.

Meg: Eye to hand, eye to body. There's not a lot. Yeah. So, um, but I like thinking about that as the, as a writer, as a reader is, you know, sometimes people will leap directly into sex, and that's a choice as a writer. But also when you have these slow burns where you get that, that yearning, that longing, that like soft touch the hand around the shoulder of like, you know, that sort of like.

The movie theater, put your arm around the girl, hand to waist, you know, using that language I think is really helpful for me to see. Okay. Even though it's a slow burn and I want 'em to get to it already, they're getting there. I.

Nikki: They're getting there. Um, one of the last things I kinda wanna say about this scene, 'cause this is when, when Olive communicates, does she specifically say she's demisexual or does she just say, I need there to be an emotional connection?

Meg: I don't think she has the word, but I think she's aware that it is, uh, on the ace spectrum.

Nikki: Yeah, I think she says something like, I have to have an emotional connection, which great.

Like I'm, I'm Demi ace. Love that. We love representation. Um, it was just interesting, I think how it came up for me because like she didn't specifically say this, this is my sexual orientation and this is what it means for us touching genitals and genitals. But I liked how it came out 'cause it made sense for her because she's not an explicit character

Meg: Mm-hmm.

Nikki: speaks, because she doesn't know.

Right. She is kind of, I don't wanna say wishy-washy is not the word. She's unsure.

Meg: Mm-hmm.

Nikki: She's a little unmoored. So she knows what she wants, but she doesn't have the words to, communicate that, which is one of the reasons why she's also, uh, afraid of giving her paper as a talk.

Meg: Mm-hmm.

Nikki: not like public speaking. Um, so when she kind of communicated that I liked it and I was like. I'm su, I wonder if this is why all of his had the physical experiences they have. Okay. I don't know if I'm explaining this correctly. I think when you have a socially awkward character like her, the reason she hasn't had a lot of physical experiences like sex, like physical intimacy, is more to do with her awkwardness, not necessarily her orientation.

Meg: Mm.

Nikki: So maybe for me it was just like the convergence of those two things just felt not odd. It was just different. So kind of like I had to stop for a minute and go, okay, I think she's saying that she's demi or somewhere on that spectrum, but we haven't really seen her have passion outside of her work previously in the book. So, to introduce being demi as a, perhaps a reason for her lack of passion physically. Like it was just, I, I don't know if I'm explaining this well. It just, it felt. Different.

Meg: Yeah, like the, I think also when you do have the, the structure of single POV. The non POV character has stronger feelings.

Nikki: Mm-hmm.

Meg: need to have your protagonist, your POV character, be a little bit oblivious to the signs. And I think that also plays into Olive as a dummy sexual character, because she's not picking up the signs because she's not intentionally putting down the signs.

She's not going out and flirting. Sure, she kisses Adam, but then she's like, I didn't mean to kiss you. You know, like it's not. She's not coy.

Nikki: Mm-hmm.

Meg: She's, she's sweet, but she's not flirtatious. She sort of misses the things because maybe because of the dummy sexuality, maybe because there might be something on the spectrum, but, you know, maybe she just hasn't had that experience and doesn't know how.

She's too shy. Um, there's a shyness to her

Nikki: Mm-hmm.

Meg: that isn't just insecurity. There's, you know, I just wanna be known for my work. Um, and all of that really works well for me as the character profile.

Nikki: Mm-hmm.

Meg: And a drivenness of, I don't really, there, there's a little bit of, I don't have time to date. It's not strong, but it's there when her roommate is going out and having casual relationships and, and he's like, why don't you go meet someone?

And she's like, I don't, I don't know how, I don't have time. I'm not interested. Like, there's a lot of hesitation. Um, and I, you know, I was sort of like that when I was dating too. It was like if I didn't feel connected to somebody, I was like, date's over or I,

Nikki: I'm

Meg: and I remember actually being. Looking back historically and being like, oh, I was being hit on there and like, didn't recognize it.

Did you ever have, and maybe you, maybe you recognized the cues, but I didn't recognize, like, I remember being invited over to a guy's house to watch the entire movie, the Godfather, and he like brought popcorn into the kitchen or into the, the living room. And I like sat on the other couch. 'cause like we sit on the same couch.

And then I looked back and I was like, why would he have invited me over to watch The Godfather if he didn't wanna make out? But like, it didn't occur to me. I was like, oh, the Godfather, that's a good movie. You know, like.

Nikki: Yeah, I, I, I actually have experienced that a couple times. I'm very oblivious to it because I guess I, because again, I'm Debbie Ace, like I don't feel attraction, so it's never something I assume is going to be

Meg: Yeah.

Nikki: So there was definitely a couple situations where I was like hanging out with this guy in university, like on two different occasions and back after it was explained to me, I was like, oh no.

He very clearly wanted to hook up and I was just. Even like one of my first boyfriends totally missed all those fucking clues until one of my friends was like, Nikki, I think he, he wants to have sex. And I was like, I don't think so. And he's like, Nikki. I was like,

Meg: Oh,

Nikki: because I'm a dumb bitch. Like. I'm not good at reading signals, so I know what I'm, I I, I totally get it all up. I'm like, let's just watch The Godfather. This is a

Meg: it's a.

Nikki: tell, lemme tell you all about Frances Ford Coppola's like filmmaking and cinematography techniques in this film and the behind the scenes trivia.

'cause clearly that's what you wanna talk about, right? We're talk the

Meg: That's why you invited me over. Yeah,

Nikki: in a different way.

Meg: found out I hadn't seen The Godfather, so you invited me over to watch The Godfather. This feels like any friendship.

Nikki: Um, if you, um, it's a quick sidebar. I think I've mentioned Barness vs. Sketch on the show before, it was a Canadian all female comedy troop. They used to have a TV show. Um, they have a sketch that is like, it's, it's out at a, at a bar, at a pub. And a woman is kind of like standing, uh, around and she's like, kind of like, you can kind of tell, she's like kind of trying to get the courage to go approach a guy and have a conversation and a woman comes up to her and is just like. You know, do you need, do you need help? And she's like, yeah, I don't really know how to start. And she, and this woman goes, don't worry, I got you. And she kind of steps back and she goes, what do you mean you've never seen Die Hard? All the men in the room go and they all like run over to her and they start like, oh, we should watch Die Hard.

Do you wanna go see the movies? Do you wanna do this? Do you wanna have a coffee date? And like, that was the vibe. And I

Meg: Yeah. Yeah,

Nikki: I'm gonna link that sketch in the show notes because it's Baros, it's

Meg: I will

Nikki: very

Meg: very much enjoy that. Okay. Any final thoughts or should we go into, uh, what you shipped the most,

Nikki: I think the final thought, um, just to say the bad guy

Meg: Tom?

Nikki: story, hashtag Tom, the bad guy. Um,

Meg: Was that? That was what I wrote in our notes. Right. I was just like, I can't remember his name. Just the bad guy.

Nikki: of that guy. So all of, continue her research to finish her PhD, she needs a lab with better equipment, uh, and more funding. And also her advisor is about to retire and is kind of checked out in terms of supporting her.

So she's reached out to all these other places to say, Hey, this is my work. Can, can I come play in your lab? And like nobody has responded to her except this one. Uh, person who she really admires their work. He's at Harvard and he kind of reaches back and is like, yeah, absolutely. I'm coming to Stanford to see a collaborator, like, let's hang out.

Like I send me your research. Like, let's do it. Turns out it's Adam's collaborator and Adam is, uh, likely going to be thinking about going to Harvard to work with him on these projects.

Meg: Adam does not think about going to Harvard until Olive gets the job in Harvard, but yes.

Nikki: yeah. Yeah. So, you know, they're, they're talking about like all this funding and, and stuff. They're going and it turns out Tom's a fucking skis

Meg: Hmm,

Nikki: Uh, 'cause what's, what's the other friend's name?

Meg: Holden.

Nikki: Holden Holden kind of says to Olive when he first meet her, like, you know, be careful around Tom, but doesn't explicitly kind of say why he feels that way. Um, so when they're at the conference and Tom and Olive are on the same, they're in the same panel. They're, they're in the, the same room. Um. He kind of comes up to her afterwards and she's like, I feel very nervous. Like that was, and she's thinking, already said to her, yes, please come to Harvard.

So she's like, excited. I get to go to this great lab to finish my work. And then he is the grossest human being. He's like, clearly we're gonna fuck. Clearly you fucked Adam to even get a talk here. You're a grad student. You have no initials after your name. You're not that special. You're sleeping your way to the top.

So clearly you're gonna keep sleeping with me. Like, who's gonna believe you if you say anything? And Olive is just like crumbling. She has no idea how to respond to this. And so when she goes back to the room and she's crying and Adam comes in, 'cause he was surprised. He was the keynote speaker, he's like, what's wrong?

She kind of just says, oh, you know, I heard some people say that they didn't think I was very good. He does not tell him. So in my mind I'm like, oh my God, this skis ball, I wanna murder him with a spoon. Um, and then as soon as she gets an email from her advisor saying, yeah, I'll introduce you to some other people.

'cause now olive's like, I can't go to Harvard. I'm gonna ask my advisor to do introductions for me. And her advisor says, don't forget to send me the recording of your talk immediately. I went, oh, she fucking recorded it, thank God. Oh my God. So when she goes to send the recording to her advisor. She hears that she recorded this whole horrible conversation with

Meg: And she accidentally plays it in front of an and Malcolm.

Nikki: Because I don't think she would've done anything

Meg: I don't think she would've.

Nikki: had her. And she even like she, it even says like Olive couldn't stand to hear it again. So she gave the recording to them and they went into another room with headphones to

Meg: Mm-hmm.

Nikki: And then immediately everybody like galvanizes around her, like Adam finds out, Holden finds out. On Jerry, find out and like shit goes down in a way that was like great. But like that was such a stressful situation. I didn't know how they were gonna resolve it or if it was gonna turn into a, he said, she said. But when that recording came out, I was like, thank you, Jesus. Play that recording. And then she, when she kind of goes to show, do the showdown with Tom he thinks he's got her on the rails and there's nothing she can do.

And she doesn't even say I recorded it. She just pushes the play button.

Meg: Mm-hmm.

Nikki: And out it comes and all the people in the room can hear it. I was like, oh, thank God. Thank God. It was an easy unraveling for all of that. She didn't really have to do more emotional labor to explain her side of things, 'cause she can, she, she can't explain things, especially

Meg: Yeah.

Nikki: so she just had to push play and I felt that was very good for her. Fuck Tom.

Meg: Was that what you shift the most?

Nikki: No, I just really like that scene.

Meg: Okay. Yeah, it was a great scene and it was a great way for, for her to feel insecure about whether Adam would back her up and immediately just know that Adam's on her side for everything.

Nikki: I love that. I love that. Uh, cool. Meg, what did you ship the most about? The love hypothesis. Mm-hmm.

Meg: I think I shipped the, the environment of academia. I think sometimes it can be a little bit, um, over romanticized

Nikki: Mm-hmm.

Meg: it can be a little bit gross and I think that this did a really good job. You can tell that Ellie Hazelwood has worked in the field, loves the field, but sees the, the problems with the field and wants to.

You know, have more women in technology and have these conversations and bring her own experience into it. Um, we talked, and I think when we talked about bride, the thing that I shipped the most was the fact that she is a scientist. And she was like, I could feel my brain doing this and this and this from the character's perspective.

Um, and I like that a lot. So, uh, that was what I liked is the environment and the setting. What about you, Nikki? What'd you ship the most?

Nikki: Love that. Um, I think it was the moment they hooked up in the hotel room. Um, I loved,

Meg: an

Nikki: I know less the sex aspect of it, more the emotional part. But yes, dicks were involved. Uh, a dick. No, this only

Meg: singular dick.

Nikki: singular. A singular dick. Um, no, I I just really liked the, again, I love it when that flip, that switch gets flipped.

There we are, I speak English, uh, in the kind of grumpy character to be like, oh, he's got like, just passion generally speaking. And now that passion going be into sheets. Like I love that character flip. And I just loved how all of like, it's her energy calmed down. Like, she wasn't as like frantic. She was excited we all would be with a hot dude like Adam. Uh, but it, it, it kind of calmed her down while it gave Adam a chance to, to get excited because we haven't really seen him excited in the same way. But again, once you find out that he's been in love with her the whole time, it's almost like, yay. He's like, I got what I want. I got what I want. I get what I want. Um, so I just liked that emotional shift, uh, for both of them. It felt. It, it made sense, in a slow burn, that that was the right moment for it to happen. So it felt very satisfying, um, in that way. So, woohoo, that was the love hypothesis. We are hypothesizing. Has our hypothesis been true? Proven true? I don't know what our hypothesis was

Meg: I believe our hypothesis was in fact correct and I liked the way that every chapter started with a hypothesis of like, hypothesis. Adam Carlson and I have absolutely nothing in common. Having coffee with him with Beach wife is painful as a root canoe. Like just having that little, like in the same way that bride had those little moments of the protagonist No, the, the, the love interest.

We had his perspective for just that little.

Nikki: Cade's, internal

Meg: Bit there. Um, this sort of like set the scene thematically with those hypotheses, so I liked that as a structural piece to, to tie everything together.

Nikki: Woo. We love structure.

Meg: Well, our hypothesis is that we, uh, have created something that you actually enjoy listening to, hopefully. And if that hypothesis is true for you, we would love if you could come over and support us.

You can follow us for free or with a paid sponsorship on our substack. You can follow us and share on the social medias. We are on, uh, Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Um, so come subscribe to. Any of those platforms and we would love if you could tell a friend about this podcast. Um, I think that's it. Are those all our calls to action?

Nikki: Yeah, I was like, you know, and if you wanna tell us your hypothesis about this book, you know, we can do that too. Tell us all the things. This was, uh, delightful. all right. Well, Meg, what are you shipping this week?

Meg: So I, it's been a really long time since I bought, since I went to the library and actually got out a book. But look, I have three books.

Nikki: Oh.

Meg: While I was at it, I, I went and got love hypothesis and then as long as I was like in the stacks, I got another book. And then I enjoyed reading a physical copy of a book so much that I went back to the library and got a third book.

So I'm sure I'll be sharing those. Um. But what I usually do, especially for a traditionally published book, is I go into Libby in my local library and I look it up and I put in a, a request to, and we chose this book over a month ago, and this was a really long wait for the love hypothesis. But I've also heard from many of my friends that Ally's new book, deep End is.

Uh, very well written and also much, much hotter and steamier than love hypothesis. And I was like, okay, let's see what happens. So this week I am shipping deep end because even though it was released four years later, the wait time was significantly shorter, which was a shock to me. Um.

Nikki: Mm-hmm.

Meg: Because I feel like Love Hypothesis is her sort of go-to book that people start with.

But Deep end is, um, it is about two collegiate athletes at Stanford. Um, our protagonist is a diver and Lucas is the love interest and he is a swimmer. They're both incredibly competitive, you know, Olympian tier athletes, um, and they're both biology majors. So guess who her computational biology professor is?

Dr. Adam Carlson. And guess who they're, uh, they work in the lab. They do some, an internship with Dr. Olive Smith.

Nikki: Ah.

Meg: So it was just a really lovely piece where like I had just finished the physical copy of Love Hypothesis, and then I got to leap into the Kindle version of Deep End, um, which is, by the way, BDSM, um, it's two students, which was a surprise to have them.

Being that self-aware, to know that they wanted that sort of, uh, physicality in their relationship. Um, they were much more mature. These undergrads were more mature than Olive was as a graduate student, which was a surprise. Um,

Nikki: Hmm.

Meg: but I think you sort of have to be more, more self-aware in order to know that you're interested in BDSM.

And, um, they are both collegiate athletes and so like, they kind of have to have to have their shit together, time management wise.

Nikki: Hmm.

Meg: Um,

Nikki: add that to my reading

Meg: yeah. So,

Nikki: came out like two months. What? You said like two months

Meg: yeah,: 2025

It just made me, I was concerned about. Olive's voice not being the piece that I want, or her tone being not necessarily what I like as a reader, but Ally as an author was good. So that was a really good knowledge piece for me.

Nikki: Mm-hmm.

Meg: What about you, miss Nikki? Whatcha you shipping this week?

Nikki: Um, I'm shipping, I got two things, uh, 'cause I'm extra

Meg: Always.

Nikki: The TV show Reacher.

Meg: Ooh,

Nikki: you watch

Meg: no.

Nikki: Oh my God, it's on Amazon Prime. Uh, season three's on right now. We're just wrapped up. Um, it's based on Lee Child's book. There were two movies made years ago with Tom Cruise as the main character. Uh, they were whatever.

But the number one complaint about those movies was Tom Cruise is like 5 6, 5 8. Like, he's a, he's a short king. Um. Reacher's supposed to be fucking gigantic. when the show came out, they cast Alan Richland. So Blue Mountain State, um, You know, actor's been on the, uh, some other stuff. So he plays richer and he's six foot something and just a huge slab of muscle. But the thing that makes richer really a cool character is, uh, he's a special investigative, like military police character. Uh, he's retired now, but he travels the country with only the clothes on his back and a toothbrush. And he gets involved and he solves various mysteries. So, you know, he, just kind of goes around and he's, bro, he's a very, very smart character.

So to see like. Six foot something brawny like 270 pound, just like hunk. A dude. Be the smartest character in the show. It is great. Alan Richardson is hilarious. He's a phenomenal actor in the show. The show is good, the action is great. It films in Toronto. So I've definitely, I in the past texted my background agent to be like, are you doing background on research?

She's like, no. I was like, fuck, because I would love to be background on er. Um, so love that. Go watch it. Um, but in terms of books, I think I sent this in a group chat to you and our friend Andrea. Um, it is CF Whites to Love a Psycho Series. 'cause book two just came out and I just started it the other day. This this dark y, dark as fuck. So the first book is called Dream a Little. Dream Book two just came out was called Kiss Me Honey. Honey. And I think the final book of the trilogy comes out in May. Um, but it's basically you have like a forensic criminal psychology professor, I forget his name, who consults with the FBI and the police, and you have this student. That shows up who's troubled? Uh, it, I don't for the series. Uh, so skip ahead if you don't wanna know this. It turns out the student is the son of notorious serial killers that the professor helped to find an arrest in the prologue of the book. Uh, so the student, uh, character very badly abused. has been going through a lot of shit since his parents were arrested. And he was like, 'cause he was continuously drugged by his parents when they would bring a new victim to the house and other people were in on it. So it's very, very, very dark. He's got a lot of bad shit going on, but it's kind of like criminal minds meets like a dark romance, but for some reason. Book one was, I loved it. I, I don't normally go for dark. Um, these are very broken characters and book one, I would, doesn't, I wouldn't even say ends like, happy for now. It's like book one ends as like a stable for

Meg: Oh.

Nikki: Um, so it's very, very dramatic. I'm really liking book two so far. I haven't finished it and I'm really excited to read book three.

It's on Kindle Unlimited if you're into it. Um, just be before warned. There are a lot of trigger warnings for that series. So dark child abuse, death, serial killers. Uh, it does have a little bit of student teacher. 'cause who the fuck am I honestly? Um,

Meg: time.

Nikki: I, every time I dunno how this happens, uh, maybe it's 'cause I only talk about the good student teacher ones that I like and not all the other ones I refuse to read.

I don't know. Uh, but yeah, all those will be linked in the show notes. I recommend checking it out. If you like something dark and different, definitely give it a look.

Meg: And we'll be back next week with Stella Reese's Hothead. It is Book five in the irresistible series by Stella Reese, and we are reading it because Reddit loves this book. I like it slightly less than Reddit, so

Nikki: We are gonna have

Meg: come back next week. Come back next week to hear our hot takes on hothead. Bye Stella Reese and we will see you then.

Bye Nikki.

Nikki: Bye.

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