George Perlov was a quintessential New Yorker. A MPA from Columbia. The Executive Vice President for Research and Innovation at The Advertising Council. A condo in Park Slope.

Then fate and love propelled him into an entirely different life.It involves living in Brussels, Berlin and Florence. Starting his own firm, George Perlov Consulting. These days, George Perlov lives a fully European life. None of it was planned.

It made me realize, you know, that there is, I think the in the American culture of work and being defined by your work is so strong. I think that in Europe, you know, I began to realize there are other things and I don't have to work as intensely here in order to have a good quality of life.

Welcome to the My fourth Act podcast. I'm your host, Achim Nowak, and I have conversations with exceptional humans who have created bold and unexpected lives. If you like what you hear, please subscribe on any major podcast platform so you won't miss a single one of my inspiring guests, and please consider posting an appreciative review. Let's get started. I am absolutely delighted to welcome George Perlov to the My fourth Act podcast George, I think of as a quintessential New Yorker. He got an MPA from Columbia. His last big job in New York was he was Executive Vice President for Research and Innovation at a place called the advertising Council. Last time I saw him in New York. He had just purchased a beautiful condominium in Park Slope. So all of that, to me says New York, and then fate and love propelled him into a completely different life. It involves living in Brussels, Berlin and currently Florence. It involves starting his own consulting firm, George Perloff consulting. These days, George lives a fully European life, and none of this was planned. So hello, George.

Hello. Good afternoon.

Good afternoon. We're both reporting in European time, because one of the interesting parts is that we knew each other socially in New York, and we both ended up living in Europe, which was another reason why I wanted to speak with you when you were a young man growing up as a boy or teenager, and, you know, you thought about your Future. What were you envisioning for yourself?

You know, I didn't really think about it much. Think, if anything, I wanted to become an architect, because it sounded cool, but I had no idea what really, what that meant, or what what you needed to do to become an architect. I think for me, though, in our family, education was really key. I just grew up with this belief that I had to finish college, I had to go to college, and as I'm the much younger brother, my older brother and sister who had these experiences and went to college and had very liberal arts kind of education, and I just assumed that's what I was going to get to but then after that, it was totally unclear what would happen. The only thing I felt, in some ways, was maybe a desire to, like, move abroad at some point in my life, and but I didn't really have much of a sense of how to do that.

I was listening to you. I was thinking. So if the future wasn't that clear, why get an MPA, like, what was the impetus for that specific degree?

Well, you know, what? I got that degree as a mid career it was a new program for mid career professionals, I assume so. It was much later, you know, that I decided to get that I didn't really think I needed it earlier, you know, in my career in advertising and then moving into what I call the good side of advertising. But I think at one point I realized, you know, both for my being a leader in the nonprofit world and for really understanding the world better, I really wanted to get an MPA, and I really wanted to understand, think of how the world work, how government works. And really, because I felt my piece in it had always been relatively small in terms of the work I had been doing. So I wanted to really see the bigger picture.

Really, I so understand that because I went back in my 40s to get a master's degree, also because I felt for me to have to play a bigger role in the world. I needed it. And since we're both in New York, it's funny. The decision was I, I said, I do want to go to one of the name schools, either Columbia or NYU. I ended up at Columbia. At NYU, you went to Columbia, but your reasoning totally matches mine for my decisions.

Now, one thing, I looked at both of those schools as well, but Columbia was just closer, and they accepted the Upper West Side at that point, so it was much easier. Easier for me to get to Colombia. So that was a large part of my decision making.

And for our international listeners, part of my decision making was in the United States, you have to take these these exams and tests to show your proficiency in certain things, and I dreaded taking those tests to get into graduate school, and NYU had an interdisciplinary masters where you didn't have to take those tests. So that was my reason for doing NYU. Same.

Same for me, too. I didn't have to take those tests. So yeah, it was a relief for me as well. It wasn't required.

Yeah, now it's funny that we're talking about tests and testing, because one thing I did not know about you when we knew to them New York was that you spent five years in Japan as a young adult, and you spend some time teaching there. What are some moments or experiences from that time that you reflect on, you go, Well, that was meaningful, that was important to my development as a person.

Well, you know, it was really my first job out of college. I was on a teaching fellowship program organized by the Japanese Board of Education, and I was sent to a very small, remote town of, you know, 50,000 people, which is very small by Japan standards. And it was the most fantastic experience, because it really forced me, you know, to learn this culture very quickly. I think the job itself was not so interesting, because we were work, we didn't really have that much responsibility. I think we were more like English language cheerleaders rather than teachers, per se, because the whole teaching method in Japan was so different and so focused on testing, as you were saying, and students getting into college and defining which students would go to college and not go to college. So there weren't too many interesting opportunities in terms of the work. I think it was more of a cultural experience of really being able to understand this culture and learn it from a very insider perspective. That was so exciting at first

we're speaking about a time before social media, and probably before internet, or possibly it was just starting. So what we knew about the world and the information was so different, but part of and this might be very interesting to speak about. Part of my experience as an adult has been because I was used to being a foreigner in countries not of my origin, and to sort of learn about what it's like to be a foreigner when you're not from the country that you're from, and how you navigate that, and how you possibly fit in or don't fit in and what it feels like to not be from the culture where you're living. So how did you just on the social level, navigate being an American in a very different culture? And that was your first time. You've had this experience many times now. But what was that like?

Yeah, well, that was really, I mean in terms of culture shock, I think that was probably the biggest sense, you know, because it was Asia, it wasn't Europe. You know, as Americans, I think, you know, our culture is so grown out of European culture. But being in Japan was really just night and day. The language was so different, the values, the way people looked and acted. It was all very different. I think on the outside there were some things that were very similar, terms of like businesses and technology and all of that. And at that point in the 80s, it was, it was a very exciting time to be in Japan, because so much was going on. And I think, if you remember correctly. I think the Americans especially, were afraid the Japanese were going to take over the world. I remember that, yeah, and so I felt like I was getting a good sense of what was going on in a very different place. I was basically the only foreigner in my town. I think there was maybe one other, and there were some Mormon missionaries who came and went over time. The funny thing was, we all, all of us foreigners, were young, and we all had bicycles and rode around down on our bicycles. So I think that's how we made a name for ourselves. Was with the bicycles. But you know, it was all about really learning Japanese, meeting people. I found a coffee shop that played jazz music, and then had some really nice people hanging out there, and they were part of a band, and they would invite me to come and hang out with them. And so slowly, you know, between that and then having weekends, you know, free, where I could travel in Japan and meet. Up with other people on this teaching program, but I got to do a lot. I got to see a lot of Japan and experience a lot of it that way, and still connect with sort of my American roots,

because we live in a time now where I think a lot of people, for many different reasons, I'd say, yearn to live abroad, fantasize about living abroad. There are popular countries to live in abroad, and you and I are doing that at the same time. I remember when I knew you socially. I don't remember having conversations with you where George Perloff said, Oh, I can't wait to move to Europe. That wasn't happening, but then something happened in your life that opened that door, and then you ended up living in Brussels. We'll talk about the different cities. But would you just fill us in how you had just, I remember, bought a beautiful condo on the outskirts of Park Slope, which is a very enchanted neighborhood in Brooklyn, no, and when we do that, that says I'm settling in. That's what that means, you know, I'm investing in a condo. It was just renovated. It was beautiful. And next thing I heard, oh, I think I'm moving to Brussels. How did that happen?

You know, I think it was with building up my career at the Ad Council as Head of Research and Evaluation there, started to have a little money in the bank, and realized that it is important to have real estate and what, especially in New York, it's it really helps You get out of the rental market, which can be very challenging, and what we call the rent stabilized apartment, which meant my landlord did very little for it. So I was very happy to get out and get leave behind the cockroaches and other things. But yeah, the move was, was fantastic. I was looked at lots of different neighborhoods, and Park Slope just always appealed to me. Well, being a lifelong New Yorker, but initially from the Bronx, and then living in Manhattan always, but I just felt there was something in Brooklyn, which was funny, because it's where my grandparents, you know, were from. So it's going back to my roots in some ways. And then, yeah, you're right, sort of fairly soon after I bought the place, it was actually a co op, not a condominium. Thank you for clarifying. No worries. Even more complicated, I just randomly met this German guy who was stranded in New York when the volcano in Iceland erupted on a business trip and just literally on the street, said hello, and the rest, as they say, is history. 15 years later, and I think both of us at the time just didn't think this would be more than a fling. But somehow we worked that, you know, we realized that we really, truly liked each other, cared for each other, grew to love each other, and then figured like, how do we make this happen? And he started looking at possibilities and coming to the states. We started talking more about Europe, and then at the same time, he was offered a position in Brussels through his multinational he worked for. And so we decided, okay, let's give Brussels a try. It was neutral country for both of us, and we got married.

So what I'm getting is, I'm listening to you. There was definitely a process, an exploration before you and your husband's name is Stefan, right before you and Stefan ended up in Brussels together. So I'm curious, when we make such a big change in our lives, how did your family react? How did your friends react? Can I really because I really thought of you as a New Yorker, and you painted the picture beautifully, and there you are marrying this German guy moving to Brussels. So it's a pretty drastic thing you did, right?

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it's funny. Achim, I, after the Japan experience, I always thought I would have more of an international career, and for some reason, that just never, that never really happened. I built my career in advertising, and then built this work in social cause advertising, and it just didn't seem, you know, the opportunity never really came up. I was technically the lead on international issues at the Ad Council. Is mostly because I had a passport and an interest, and so did start to do some initial groundbreaking, I guess, for how the organization could have more international relevance and connection and all of that. And attended some meetings and conferences in Europe during that time, and also started to do a little bit of consulting work through. USA ID funded projects. So there was a little bit of momentum right before, around the time I met Stefan, and then, yeah, I say, it was a big decision. It was very hard, because I think, like you said, I am, I'm very much a New Yorker. I feel very rooted in the in the city. You know, my most of my close family and friends were there. My mother was elderly. She was 88 at the time when I left, and it's a little hard to make that decision, but I knew, you know, my sister was still living in town. There were other people, other family members, nearby. I felt like she will be taken care of, and I can come back as much as as I need to. So a lot of big decisions to be made, yeah, and not really knowing that many people you know in in Europe, yeah. So it was a big it was a big leap. You're right.

I want to test something with you because, you know, now, in the age of social media, I post images of where I live, in stubologist, south of Lisbon, Portugal. I'm in my second year, and, you know, it's an it's a great fishing port, and you know, it's beautiful. But the thing that I think the photos do not convey is that every single day, when I walk out of our building in my apartment in this old fishing neighborhood, what I see and experience is completely different, mean, radically different from what it was like to live in South Florida or in Manhattan. So if we speak about you in Brussels, and as you visited you and Stefan's, have memories of the beautiful place that you had, how was your experience of daily life? Maybe similar to what you knew, but also, how was it different living in Brussels?

Yeah, I think in many ways, you know, it is. It's a city for by all means, it's a city. It's not as dynamic as city as, say, New York, but actually wonderful in its diversity, both in terms of obviously being the center of the European Union and having so many people from 27 countries living there, plus all of the other NATO, plus having a very large African population. So in that regard, it didn't feel all that different people, wise of who you would see on the streets than New York. But didn't really know many people, and I didn't really have many connections. And I think one of the things that I needed to do was really find my communities. There. One important one for me was like the Jewish community, queer community, I found a little bit of both, because there was actually a queer Jewish informal group that would get together from time to time, which was fantastic. There were, it was Democrats abroad. So I found politically. I found people I could relate to there. And then, yeah, we slowly through our personal and professional networks, we began to meet more people in Brussels and I did also work. Took a consulting job within a company for about a year as well. So I had that experience there, also because of the fact that it is an international city, that English, you know, was so widely spoken, it was relatively easy to fit in, although my height, you know, my middle school and high school. French also helped.

What I'm hearing is because of where you started in Europe, you had a relatively soft landing, right because of the type of city that it is. What did you enjoy most about being in Brussels. And if there's anything that maybe you didn't enjoy as much, this is not about trash talking Brussels, but really about our experience of being in a very different world. What comes to mind

for one, you know, you could see the sky, you know, because it's a low side from like the European quarter, the Commission and the Parliament, and all of those buildings were located, you know, it's a fairly low slung city, so you see that you saw the sky, understood where the, you know, the Flemish painters got their inspiration from. So that was a nice thing, just the fact also it's so conveniently located, less than two hours to London, an hour and a half to Paris, an hour and a half to Amsterdam, could travel a bit and see friends and people we knew in those places. So in that regard, it was great, and it has, there's a vibrancy to the built the Belgian city. We love going to Antwerp and to Ghent and some of the others, even smaller cities that do have an interesting background. And we also we were newlyweds at the time, so we were enjoying all this sort of getting to know each other time and living together time, which we'd only sort of tested out for a couple of months in London, the year before I moved there,

when you ended up in Berlin, which is a city I know well, I think it was a very sexy city. It's a, in my mind, a larger, more energetic city than Brussels, more cosmopolitan with many different kinds of scenes. You ended up living in a pretty cool neighborhood. What was it like to leave one city and move to another? Were you ready for a move? Were you excited? Were you going, Gosh, we just settled into Brussels, and here we're moving on again. What was that like?

Yeah, well, we thought it might be a little bit longer that we would stay there, you know, it ended up being three years. We thought it might be three to five. And again, it was, you know, I had my base, pretty much was working as a consultant, and Stefan had been working in your employed positions, and he had a new opportunity that he felt would be sort of right for him at that moment. And I think that's the reason we decided to move. Had no we, I visited Berlin, you know, a few times before, not much. We do have Stefan has a cousin there. We had a couple of friends there. But really, it was a city we didn't know so well, but has, I mean, culturally, and we love music. I mean, it is probably the best of the best in terms of classical music and opera and chamber music. I mean, we just heard fantastic things. And I used to joke after hearing the Berlin Philharmonic that it made the New York Philharmonic look like a high school band, which I think my New York friends will probably hate but now that they have Dudamel coming in, I think that might change quite a bit. But it's, you know, it is. It's a very big city. Some places are very beautiful. A lot of it is really ugly. It was two different cities. The winter, it was cold and dark and gray, and people were miserable and cranky and all of that. And in the summer, everyone is just very happy. It just changes. It's like a Jekyll and Hyde kind of town in that regard. So that's, I think, how we saw it, also very compartmentalized in a way that I don't think there's a lot of young people there. Obviously, the club scene is always is a very big driver of the economy. There's also, like I said, the classical music scene, lots of startups. And then, of course, all the people come because of the the jury, it's the seat of the German government. So there's a lot of those different groups and communities there, but a little hard to break into. So I think that way it was a challenge. We also went during we were there for the two major covid years, and I also had an illness for about six months or so that really kept me down. So it was a little bit hard. It was a more of a challenge, in some ways, I think, in terms of meeting people and make developing a community there

for me, the way you described Berlin in broader strokes very much matches how I see the city. I think you captured it beautifully and and I think the larger is city is, and the more of a magnet is for different kind of people, it tends to attract people who, therefore, maybe self driven reasons in finding community can be harder, which I think is true in New York as well, right? I mean, it's full of very ambitious people. I was thinking as well, because you mentioned as a Jewish person, Berlin really pays attention and homage to the German Jewish history. What was that like for you? Did you go to the museums? Did you look at how, how Germany tells the story of what happened?

Yeah, interesting. I mean, yes, you're right. I think there's a lot of, I mean, one can say, in many ways, Germany is maybe the safest place to be as a Jew in Europe these days. But oddly enough, I didn't feel I've had my my a real community there. I met a lot of very interesting Jewish people who I liked, but I never found like a spiritual home that I found really worked for me in a way. Also, I think in many ways, it's a history. You know, Jewish people in Germany are really like a history. And for me, the places that I liked in Berlin that related to Jewish life were the ones where you felt a sense of continuity. So for example, there's the large Jewish cemetery. Just. Outside of the name of the neighborhood, just, it's not just beyond Prenzlauer bag, there's a large Jewish cemetery, actually the largest, one of the largest, I think, in Europe. And what I liked about it was that they had a new section you know, people who you know, were Jewish people who were buried there after the war, toes that continues to serve the Jewish community. So in that regard, I think the hardest thing for me was sometimes this you felt as a Jewish person, you felt like you were just like a some odd part of history in this country, but not really integrated into it in current day.

Yeah, makes so much sense to me. Before we talk about Florence, where you currently live, we have made several references to your now consulting life, which I think of as being very international. But would you give our listeners a sense of So, what does George Perloff consulting do, and why is that the focus of what you do? Like? Why did you choose to focus on that?

Yeah, I mean, I had a great career in commercial advertising, and then following that in social cause advertising over 20 years, and I really enjoyed that work. And then I left and said, You know what? I just want to continue to do the kinds of things that I like, which are mostly strategic research, evaluation of programs and strategy and helping organizations understand the why of you know, what's working, what's not working. How can we make things better? How can we understand certain issues, etc, etc. So I just made that really the focus of my consulting work, and decided that I really wanted to focus working on with foundations and NGOs, because I think we had, you know, the same values I did do, you know, I have done some corporate work over over this time as well, but I think my heart of hearts is in the independent sector, so to speak, because I think it really does work to make the world better in very simple terms. And I come from a family, you know, where my mom was a social worker, so I think we've always got a little bit of sense of helping and giving back, etc, etc. That's how I got into it. And really it's been a lot of networking, meeting people, talking to people. One of the organizations I worked with most closely in recent years is a UK based charity, but I had met the founder at a meeting of the at the European Parliament talking about the economic case for LGBT inclusion. And I just found that work so interesting and exciting. We stayed in touch, and then, lo and behold, that led to, you know, a number of years as as a consultant, almost exclusive consultant for that organization.

I want to explore the work part a little more, because, again, I want to speak from a Portuguese perspective right now. I I'm a German I have an American green card. I lived in the United States forever. My career is really, really busy in Portugal, but all my clients are international organizations that are US based that I have a lot of history with. And people always say is, when you come to Portugal, you better make your money elsewhere, because salaries are low here, right? So this is one thing that people as somebody lives in a sexy country like Portugal, people go, Gosh, I want to live there, but I I probably can't really work there. So you figured out a life where you are consulting and making your money in a very different way from what you did in New York, where you had a regular salary. So you already spoke about the networking. But is there anything else you learned about as an American married to a German living in Europe, how you have developed a professional career that's consulting and sustainable? Yeah.

I mean, I think there's a little bit of exotica being an American and working here and doing this kind of work. I mean, also, just to your point about salaries and all of that, I think, as you well know, yeah, you're right. Salaries are lower, but cost of living is also right, a lot lower. And you know, there is a social safety net. For example, when I moved to Germany, I didn't have any paid work immediately, and I was be as being part of the German healthcare system. I paid zero for my medical and, you know, visits or dental visits. I was shocked. It was like that I didn't have to pay anything, you know, or that there were no crazy co pays or anything deductibles that I had to meet that. Also very interesting, you know, opportunity. And I think, not to say that it made me less ambitious, but it also just made me realize, you know, that there is, I think the in the American culture of work and being defined by your work is so strong. I think that in Europe, you know, I began to realize there are other things, and I don't have to work as intensely here in order to have a good quality of life.

Oh, I appreciate everything you just said. I want to be a little more radical about the health part, because I, you know, I have a chronic medical condition. I was always well taken care of in the United States, but the level of care I get in Portugal is much better. It costs me nothing, and I realized the first time I got my medications for free from the public hospital in my city, I left the building and I was outside sobbing because I realized how traumatized I was by the American system, which always threatened to take my health insurance away from me. So that experience of being able to exhale and relax, and no, I'm putting my language on yours, I've had here as well, and it's just been profound, you know? I Yeah,

oh, it is amazing. I mean, that part is amazing. And even because I was dealing with this health issue in 2020, and my mother was still alive at the time, she said to me one day, I never thought I would say this, but thanks. Thank the Germans for all the

well you had a nice Jewish mother, clearly.

Well, nice, yes,

Florence, because you were, you know, Florence is like a fantasy city for many people. It has incredible history. I believe, through your husband, Stefan, you ended up in Florence for a while. Would I've been to Florence, but I haven't lived in Florence, I would imagine it's completely different from Berlin and Brussels. So if you had to give us a snapshot of what you appreciate about daily life in Florence, what comes to mind,

you know, it's funny. I think so much of it is just about the beauty of the place, you know. And every time I walk by the Duomo, even though there may be 10,000 you know, tourists surrounding it, who have to push push aside often at times, or cross the Arno River, I'm just reminded by this incredible beauty and sort of what, what drove that, or in the 15th century, and the Medicis, and all of the amazing things that developed out of the Renaissance, including the art, but also the culture and the science and the governments are running all of these kinds of things, are just sort of amazing. So I think there's a little bit of awe from living here that keeps my day very exciting. I but I also have, you know, the regular things that I do. You know, I get up and meditate every morning. I go for my occasional run. I go, of course, here I go in a very beautiful park that goes by some gorgeous villas, and has an excellent view from the top that of the whole city. So I mean, all of that's pretty wonderful. Brought my consulting work here. I work some days, some days more, some days less. Get involved with volunteer efforts, Democrats abroad efforts. Work writing my memoir and finding a very large writing community here. So it's a pretty rich it's a pretty rich lifestyle overall. And then, of course, you know, we have great food and very friendly people and all of that. You know, it's, it is night and day compared to Berlin. I was just in Berlin last week, not that far, physically, to go from Italy to Germany, but I mean, it's so far

culturally, yeah, thank you for that beautiful snapshot. I just want to wrap this up with one question, because I'm the son of a German diplomat. So I grew up in Portugal, Turkey, and when I was 16, we came to the States. So this is one thing I've noticed about from my parents, because Portugal was our first foreign foreign country, and there were gung ho. They wanted to learn the culture. They learned the language. My mother, who's 100 years old now, still can utter Portuguese sentences, which blows my mind. But by the second country, Turkey, it was like, Okay, let's learn a little bit of Turkish. But you know, we're not going to be here that long. And you get the idea, though the more you travel, the effort to really get to know a culture and assimilate. It wasn't repeated in the same kind of way. So how do you so it's easy to stay with your expat friends, where we know each other, and everybody navigates that. How much do I invest in making Italian friends and learning Italian being the culture versus let me hang out with my English speaking people, especially since we have same cultural interests and social signals that we easily understand. Yeah.

Well, you know, it is true, I feel in many ways, I've become a mutt of European languages, and don't speak any of them really well. I enjoy studying Italian. I continue to study it's more fun than studying German, yeah. But weirdly, obviously, because I lived in Japan so early in my career and spent, you know, five years there, Japanese is still my, the strongest language, and sort of the language I can speak without having to really think about what I want to say. You know, it really just comes naturally out of my head and in conversation with people. It is a challenge here. We were lucky. I think we've met a mix of people here, both Italians and expats and even some Florentines who, you know, people have a reputation of being a little reserved and snooty and all of that. But I think the people we've met have been really wonderful and incredibly helpful here. I've worked, you know, out of a co working space for a while. So I have, you know that network of people have my network from the writing community and a very tiny mixed Italian and expat Jewish community here, pulling pulling all of these and the Democrats abroad, which are obviously mostly Americans, although a lot of them are Italians, who also have dual nationality. So very interesting people and stories and always good conversation to be had.

So as you think of the future and your own and your future with your husband Stefan, what are some things that you think about that are important to you or that you possibly aspire to? Are there things you always wanted to do that you'd never done? Or do you go like, gosh, I'm traveled out, and let's just settle in Berlin and stay home a little more like, wow. Do you think about

the future? No, we've, pretty much, you know, made a decision we're not going anywhere as new at this point. We've lived in a lot of great places, and we have to sort of think where it is that we want to be as we get older, maybe it's a combination of one or two places or maybe three. Who knows? But also it's it's complicated being in a international relationship, when citizenships and visas and taxes and health care and social security and pensions and all of these things have, like, lots of implications. And so one thing we've actually started, and Stefan has had laughed at this because I was the one who instigated it. I said, we need a 30 year plan. He laughs because, you know, I've out germaned him in being a planner about this. And so I put together an outline for what this 30 year plan is. What are the what's the background? What are our key issues? What are the time frames? What are the where is more research needed? What are the financial aspects of it? And we're slowly digging into it. I think now we tend to have more big picture discussions about it, like places we definitely would want to be, wouldn't want to be. What are the visions we want to have for ourselves? What are the things we want to be doing? What kind of community we do? We want to have, all of those, you know, kinds of things. So we're, we're starting that process, and it's, you know, it's, it's a lot of work, I have to say, you know, it's a lot just to to get two people to the same place. It takes a lot of thinking and planning. And so we're just starting that process now.

I appreciate the boldness of the 30 year window.

Bravo. Well, we both have moms who live well into their 90s, and his mom is still living in her 90s. I think, you know, it's not, it won't be it's not a surprise that we would live long. So we just have to, and have to plan for that.

Thank you so much for your insights, and I mean this in the best kind of way, the twists and turns and sort of evolutions of your life. If anybody's listening and says, I want to learn more about what George Perloff does, what he does in his business. Where would you like to direct them to?

I guess to LinkedIn is probably the best place for all that. If you Google me, you'll find you'll find things that. Yeah.

So if you go and look on LinkedIn for George Perloff, P, E, R, L, O, V, you will find him. Thank you so much for this conversation, and until next time be well. Bye, bye. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of The my for the ACT podcast. If you like what you have heard, please like us and leave a review on your preferred podcast platform. And if you would like to engage more deeply in fourth act conversations, check out the mastermind page at Achim nowak.com it's where fourth actors like you engage in riveting conversation with other fourth actors. See you there and bye for now. You.