Content warning: This episode contains discussion of infant loss and grief. The first half of our conversation shares details about childbirth, Mai's daughter's brain injury, and her baby's death. There are references to infant loss and discussions of grief in the second half. Please take care while listening.

Author and mom Mai Nguyen joins host Emily Hessney Lynch for an in-depth conversation about a mind-bending, life-altering experience that left her saying WTF and grieving deeply: losing her baby when she was just a few days old due to a brain injury caused by a lack of oxygen during delivery. Mai shares what that experience was like (devastating), how she was able to hope again, why having another baby seemed both necessary and inevitable, and what it was like to put her grief on the page in writing her new book, Cleo Dang Would Rather Be Dead.

In the second half of the show, we explore what it was like to go through pregnancy and childbirth again after such a traumatic loss, how Mai teaches her living daughter Leah about her big sister Gemma, what it's like to be friends with your grief, and the joy of learning that your kid's favorite show is getting new episodes soon.

Links:

• Grab a copy of Mai's new book, Cleo Dang Would Rather Be Dead or borrow it from your local library!
• Advocacy group mentioned in the episode: Measure the Placenta
• Mai's piece for Oprah Daily that we mention in the episode: "My Family Never Talked About Death. Then I Lost My Baby."
• For more of Mai, follow her on Instagram and check out her website.
• Follow Emily on Instagram and check out her business, Serve Me the Sky Digital, if you need a social media strategist, speaker, or writer!

Books mentioned in this episode:

• My Year of Rest and Relaxation by Ottessa Moshfegh
• Mai's recommendations: Hold My Girl by Charlene Carr & Gemma and the Giant Girl by Sara O'Leary
• Emily's recommendation: If You Give a Pig a Pancake by Laura Numeroff

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Mentioned in this episode:

Joe Bean Roasters

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Getting Real with Bossy: For Women Who Own Business

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Every time I had McDonald's, she would go crazy and start kicking, like, really wildly. It was my excuse to have McDonald's every week because she really wanted it.

I would always get like a McChicken meal and I always joke about that's how she got such plump cheese, because of all the McChicken sauce I was ingesting during the pregnancy.

we had a Taco Bell right next to the midwifery. I was always getting Taco Bell after appointments and I joked that my son was like swimming in Baja Blast instead of amniotic fluid.

I swear, it's so good for them! They love it!

They love it! Hello and welcome to It's A Lot, a podcast about things that are a lot.

On this show, we have honest conversations about the highs and lows of social media, parenthood and more. When it comes to complex topics, online discourse can lack nuance and empathy.

That's why we're leaning into deep conversations, making space for conflicting, messy feelings and keeping it real about how we feel. We could all use a little more of that sometimes. I'm your host, Emily Hessney lynch, and today I'm excited to be chatting with Mai Nguyen.

Her nonfiction writing has appeared in Toronto Life, Oprah Daly, Wired, Washington Post, Marie Claire, and more. Born in Winnipeg and raised in Halifax, Mai lives in Toronto now with her husband, daughter and their Frenchie.

Really looking forward to our conversation. So welcome to the show, Mai.

Thanks so much for having me, Emily, I'm so excited to be chatting with you.

I'm curious how your summer is going so far. Let's start on a light note. What is bringing you joy lately?

Oh my gosh. I love summer. Summer is like my time to shine. Like, I love being sweaty. I love being hot. I love the sun against my skin.

I love wearing shorts and tank tops. A summer in Toronto is like really elite.

Like, I don't know if people know that, but like, I think people think of Canada and Toronto as just a very cold and destitute place. But in the summer, it's like everyone's so happy. Everyone's vibing.

There's just so many great patios and restaurants and ice cream shops to check out. Summer so far has been so great. We already had gone up to the cottage up near Halliburton.

It's about two and a half hours north of Toronto, and got to jump in the lake and everything was warm, and I'm living for it.

That sounds lovely. I think it's a similar vibe in Rochester because it's so brutal and cold for so much of the year here.

And then we get our glorious summers, and that's when everyone is outside and having so much fun.

We truly, like, are more grateful for it, I find. Like, I don't know what it's like to live in, like, a place where you only have one or two seasons.

So when you live in a place with four seasons and you know how short summer lasts, you just take it. You just appreciate it so much more.

I get a little summertime FOMO, though, because I feel like if I'm not maximizing my fun every day, I'm, like, losing out on the few nice days we have.

Oh, for sure. Like, I had that today. Like, I was inside. It was my writing day today. I was inside all day writing. And it was.

It happened to be one of those days where it was, like, perfect blue skies. There was no heat wave. It was like a perfect temperature. And I looked out the window. I'm like, I should be out there.

But, you know, some days you just have to be indoors, working or doing whatever.

It's a tricky balance. Well, I want to learn more about your story with Gemma, specifically for people who might not be familiar with your background, your story.

Can you tell us a little bit about what it was like with Gemma's birth...and life and death?

Every ultrasound went well. There was never any indication that anything went wrong. And so I made it all the way to my due date without any hiccups.

I actually was, like, five days overdue. And that was the day when my water broke and I went.

We went into the hospital with, like, all of our bags, like, all of our pillows, everything that we needed to, you know, deliver. And unfortunately, we had a complication during the birth. Actually, you know what?

During the birth, like, during the pushing part, there was actually still no indication that anything had gone wrong the whole time. I just thought this was just how painful labor should be and that it is just. It's just an arduous time to get a baby out.

And then when Gemma was born, about two hours into pushing, they put her onto my chest. And even then, I thought everything was fine until we were sort of waiting for her to cry or to make a sound, but no sound had come out.

I had noticed she was sort of gurgling a little bit, and that's when the midwives took her off of my chest and away from me. And they put her on a ventilator, and that's. I couldn't see everything because I was still on the bed.

And so that's when I realized, like, oh, something is not right if they're using a bag on her. It turned out she wasn't breathing.

And so next thing I knew, we had emergency come in and assist, and Gemma was transported to the NICU, where they put her on a cooling bed. A cooling bed is used for baby who.

Babies who have lost oxygen during delivery in order to decrease some of that inflammation, increase, and, like, assist in some of the recovery a little bit. And so it wasn't an until the next day when we realized that her brain injury was actually a lot more severe than we thought.

And then we got the horrible news that Gemma wouldn't make it. And it was such a blind side for my husband and me.

We'd gone in just being told that we did everything perfectly, that Gemma was perfectly healthy and that everything would be going fine. And then to be told that she had suffered oxygen deprivation during labor. It was just never anything that anybody had warned me could happen.

And so it was such a complete blindside. We were so devastated, so heartbroken.

I think when the doctors sat us down in that room and they told us that Gemma wouldn't make it, I'm pretty sure the first thing that came out of my mouth was, are you kidding? Like, thinking back, it's such an absurd thing to say. Like, of course doctors don't kid. They don't make jokes like this.

But that was all I could think was, like, what is this a joke? Like, everything was fine. I just thought maybe she just needed some assistance, like, catching her breath.

But I didn't realize her injury, her brain injury was so severe. And so after that meeting with the doctors, they gave us a private room with her. We spent four days with her in a private room. We got to play family.

We read her books, sang her lullabies. And we eventually made the difficult decision to take her off life support.

And it was a really dark time for us to go in thinking we were going to deliver a baby and bring home a baby, only to sort of leave the hospital with an empty car seat and a lock of her hair. And that was it. And so it was a really devastating time for us. Something that we never thought would happen. It was not on our radar at all.

And so what ensued was just a lot of grief, a lot of confusion, and frankly a lot of anger and rage at what happened.

That is just so brutal. I'm so sorry that happened to you. I know that's like a very weak and empty condolence, but, like, what the fuck? Why? Like all those.

It's just so heartbreaking and devastating. I'm really sorry you went through all of that. And thank you for sharing it with people now. Like, it must be traumatic to even reshare it.

So I appreciate you being so open about what happened.

Thanks so much. Thanks so much for saying what the fuck. Because it really is like a what the fuck moment.

Yeah, I truly, really didn't have any words for it back then. Like, if we had this interview back then, I don't think I would have been able to vocalize what happened. I would have been like, I. I don't know.

I have no idea what happened. Yeah, she was there and then she wasn't there.

Yeah, birth is so insane to begin with. Like, my mother in law asked what I felt and if I was overflowing with joy when they placed my son on my chest. And literally when they placed him on my chest, I just said, what the fuck? What the fuck? This. This baby was inside of you for all this time and now there's a human on you. Like, it's. It's the craziest experience.

And then to have a whole other level of devastation on top of that, it's like, how do you even process it?

And I think I'm still processing it. It's been four years now, and I still sometimes am flabbergasted that when I tell people my story, I can't believe it's my story.

Like, sometimes I've said my story so many times that sometimes it feels like I'm just recounting somebody else's story or I'm recounting like a scene in a movie that I watch and I sort of have to sit back and be like, no, wait, that actually happened to me. Like, that was something that we had to endure.

Are there parts of it that you, like, blacked out or are fuzzy or do you remember, like, all the details?

I think I remember almost every detail. I think I do. Which is weird because you Think you would just black out and it would be a blur.

But every moment was just so devastating that you had to remember each moment. Like when she, when she came out of me, when she was put in the nicu, when we had to remove the life support ventilator on her.

Like, every moment was such, like, a peak moment that you just have no choice, but you have to remember every single one of them. And honestly, I'm grateful for the memories because we don't have very many memories of her. Like, we only have the four days with her.

And so even if they are devastating, horrific memories, they're the only things I have to hold on to of her.

What was she like in those four days that you did get to spend time with her?

You know, that's such a hard and devastating question to answer because. Because she was brain dead, she had such a severe brain injury that she. I didn't even get to see her eyes open. She couldn't even breathe on her own.

Like, and every breath that we got to see when we got to see her chest move up and down, that was all through the ast existence of a mechanical ventilator. And so I, I say this in my book, like, it's really hard to pay tribute to a, a baby that barely got to live.

At funerals, you get to share anecdotes or stories or silly memories of the person that died. But with a baby who barely got to live, like, what, what memories do you have to share other than the dreams and the hopes that you wished for them?

All I can really talk about is how Gemma looked like. She was perfect. She was beautiful. She was eight. Eight whole pounds. Like, she was quite a big baby. Like, no wonder I was overdue.

Like, she was getting really plump in there. She had, like, really big cheeks and she had fluffy black hair and she had really, really luscious lips.

She had, oh my gosh, she was born with, like, the longest, sharpest nails. Like, I come from a nail salon family. Like our, my parents ran a nail salon all throughout my childhood.

And so immediately when she was born, like, I took out the nail clippers and the filers and I immediate to work trimming them down because I was like, you are, you are not walking around here with these sharp nails.

My description of her is unfortunately so short because I don't have many things to say about her other than she was our first child and she was deeply loved and wanted and we had a whole life planned for her and unfortunately it was, it was cut really short.

Did you have, like, the kind of pregnancy where you felt really connected and bonded with her when you were pregnant, or were you kind of like, this is a weird, intangible thing, and I don't know what's going on in there.

Oh, for sure I was. I think I. Like, I counted every kick that I had of hers. She actually had quite a penchant for McDonald's. Like, every time I had McDonald's, she would go crazy and start kicking, like, really widely. And so it was my excuse to have McDonald's every week because she really wanted it and she asked for it.

And so I would always get, like, a McChicken meal every week because that's what Gemma wanted. And I always joke about that stuff.

That's how she got such plump cheese, because of all the McChicken sauce I was ingesting during the pregnancy.

we had a Taco Bell right next to the midwifery that we went to. So I was always getting Taco Bell after appointments. And I joked that my son was, like, swimming in Baja Blast instead of amniotic fluid.

I swear, it's so good for them. They love it!

They love it. You mentioned some of the anger that came up in the aftermath. Can you talk a little bit about, like, where was the anger at the universe? Was any of it at, like, doctors or the medical establishment? And, like, how did you work through some of the anger?

Oh, I definitely had a lot of anger. I had a lot of anger towards my healthcare team. There was lots of moments when, during the delivery where I felt like I wasn't heard.

And if Gemma had lived and everything had been fine, I probably would have looked past it. But when.

When something tragic happens, you kind of have to no choice but to rewind a bit and look through every single thing that happened and question why this didn't happen and why this didn't happen and why didn't you listen to me here and why didn't you do this thing that I wanted? So I had a lot of anger towards my healthcare team for not listening to me during the delivery and what I wanted.

And I remember after Gemma had died, my midwife had gone on vacation a week later, and it was a vacation that was planned, like, months ago, but I still felt really angry that she left the country when I was grieving and after my baby had died. And I was also very angry that she just didn't have a lot of answers for me as to why this happened.

Looking back now, what caused Gemma to lose oxygen during delivery was that my placenta was not sufficient enough to sustain her throughout the delivery. This is not something I was even aware was a possibility.

I didn't know that placentas could be insufficient and that they are the sole source of oxygen and nutrients to the baby during delivery, especially during labor, when contractions and stress can cause a lot of stress for the baby. And so I had an insufficient placenta that had just gone undetected during my whole pregnancy.

And now in hindsight, I've learned that there are like a slew of tests that you could do to discover when there's placental insufficiencies and treatments you could do to deliver the baby without any issues. But of course I knew none of that. And I've done a lot of research on the issue that I had.

And, you know, now there's a growing body of advocates that are fighting to make placental measurements a crucial part of the standard prenatal routine right now. It's not like placentas aren't measured during pregnancy.

They're only measured after you've had a loss or after you've had a history of placental insufficiency or if you're considered a high risk pregnancy, which I find so devastating. Because why do you have to wait until there is a tragedy to do those checks?

There's so many advocates and parents now that are fighting to get doctors and hospitals to do standard routine tests. There's multiple types of tests that you could do to track the placenta health.

You could do blood tests where you can check the mother's blood throughout the pregnancy to make sure the placental growth factor levels are normal.

They could do ultrasounds where they sort of measure the placenta throughout the pregnancy to make sure the placenta measurements to the fetus measurements are at a healthy ratio. But like I said, unfortunately, these tests aren't standard unless you have a reason to have these tests done.

And that reason is, unfortunately, either you've had a previous loss or, or you are a high risk pregnancy. And that's unfortunately the reality currently.

It's the kind of stuff that's so enraging that there's so little research on and funding for women's health, because like, we think birth is such a normal thing that happens every day. But there's so much that can go wrong.

And if we did more research and had more guidelines for things like this, like, it could prevent a lot of tragedies.

It's so horrible. And like, now that I know what is what these tests are, they're so easy. They actually don't take up a lot of time or resources.

Like, you know, we get ultrasounds all the time when we're pregnant. Right. They could just do one extra measurement test to ensure that the placenta is healthy.

And that placenta is like the, they call it like the engine of the uterus. They're the organ that ensures that the baby is is healthy and well and has all the nutrients and oxygen it needs.

And so it befuddles me why that is not checked on a regular basis for every person that's pregnant, not just high risk pregnancies.

Is there anywhere where people can go to learn more about that advocacy if they want to get involved with that?

There is a organization called Measure the Placenta. It's a US based nonprofit organization that does a lot of education and advocacy around getting more doctors to measure the placenta during pregnancies to reduce the risk of stillbirths and neonatal deaths.

I'll link to that one in the show notes. I want to dive into the book too. First, can we just do the elevator pitch for the book?

If listeners haven't heard of it, tell us about Cleo Dang Would Rather Be Dead.

So Cleo Dang Would Rather Be Dead is a story about a newly grieving mother who's just lost her baby and she's trying to cope with the death of her infant in very unhealthy ways. And eventually she decides to take up a job at a funeral home to keep her busy. She can't be at home anymore.

She can't be alone with those thoughts, those dark thoughts that she has. And so she takes up a job at a funeral home despite her family's advice.

And through working at the funeral home, she sort of learns how to navigate her own grief while helping other people say goodbye to their loved ones. And.

And she learns that grief is not something to fight, rather something that you can embrace and learn to carry and still move forward in your life.

Like you're just intellectualizing, but what can you do with these boomers?

That's like, that's like my character in Cleo Dang. Like Ethan, Cleo's husband, is like your dad. He is sort of like the intellectualizer of grief. He thinks grief is something that is like a, a cognitive block. Like, you just need to learn about it and understand its mechanisms, and that way you can get through it.

To him, it's not something you feel, it's something. It's like an obstacle, like a puzzle that you just have to solve. And so a lot of people grieve in that way.

And it can be very difficult when you're dealing with family members who grieve differently from you, and I'm so sorry that you had multiple losses in one year, but also to have people who grieve differently from you, because that is also such a challenge when you're grieving, but also have to accept the different ways that people in your life grieve.

I really appreciated the article you wrote for Oprah Daly, too, about your family not talking about death, because in my family, too, it's been like, we just pretend these people never existed. We're never going to speak of them again. And it's like, this is the elephant in the room all the time. Like, why are we just erasing this from our lives?

Everybody has their different ways of grieving. And I, and I don't want to say, like, this is the right way to grieve and this is the wrong way to grieve, but we do have, like, a huge problem in our culture where we just are afraid to talk about things that make us sad. We live in such a toxic, positive world where it's like, look on the bright side or focus on the happy things.

And that can be useful in certain scenarios. But when it comes to grief, it just feels so dismissive and invalidating to really real deep feelings of sorrow and loss that honestly need to be witnessed and accepted and felt through. And so that all that positive thinking can just feel like such a slap in the face sometimes.

There were some really shocking scenes in the book with things that people said to Cleo that you're like, how could someone say that? These platitudes that are, like, so familiar at the same time that we hear all the time. And a lot of us have probably said them. But I really like.

The one that I thought was interesting was people kept saying, I can't imagine. I can't imagine that poor woman. And I have said to people like, oh, I can only imagine what you're going through.

And I tend to think that that's better, but I don't know. Do you think that's any better to say I can only imagine? Or, like, what? I don't think There's a right thing to say.

But do you have any advice for that?

It's hard to say. It depends on how I'm feeling at the time. When someone says I can only imagine, I would say it's marginally better than I can't imagine. But the.

The words I could only imagine also doesn't sound helpful either to me. And I think it's because it still suggests that the person that says it is immune to that kind of tragedy.

Like, they could only imagine because that kind of stuff would never happen to them because they're more careful or they're more rational or. Or they pray more or, you know, like, it. It kind of gives off the idea that, like, oh, I could only imagine because this would never happen to me.

And so the rate. But the reality is, when it comes to tragedy, it could happen to anyone. Right. But honestly, you could say, and to any bereaved person, and I'm pretty sure they would still appreciate it too. It's just. If we're nitpicking here, you know.

Yeah. So it's a little isolated, I guess, because you're not in it with the person too.

Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, when I wrote this book, I worried that people would be afraid to talk to me because they'd be afraid that they would say the wrong thing. And I. And I want to remind people it's not about saying the wrong things. It's just pointing out, like, what things can feel icky.

I'm kind of like Teflon. Like, a lot of things slide off my back really easily. You could say something that really hurts me, and I honestly would laugh it off for some people. I know words like that can hurt. Like, the words like, I can't imagine.

I have probably said it so many times to people in their hardest moments, thinking, like, oh, look at me. I'm. I'm giving them my condolences.

Yeah.

I think the reason why I can't imagine is such a hurtful line is there's, like, this, like, feeling of distance and pity. Like, ugh, what's happening to you is so far removed from my life that, like, I can't even begin to imagine myself in your shoes.

And it's kind of like that's like the bare minimum you can do is just picture yourself in my shoes.

The other thing that I was thinking about while I was reading is with my own relationship with my mom.

We had a very difficult relationship, and some of the things people said to me after her death they didn't realize were hurtful at all they would think it was comforting. They'd be like, oh, you're. You're just like her. She would be so proud of you. She loves you. She was the best mom.

And none of it, like, landed how they wanted it to. And it was like, oh, like, icky feeling.

So I think another good reminder to people, talking to people, grieving is you shouldn't make assumptions about their life and their relationships. And, like, being there with them is all you can really do. Like, you don't have to give them the platitudes and stuff.

It's so true. And sometimes, like, we, as the grieving person, we don't actually even know what icks us until somebody says it.

What might sound like really pleasant and helpful might just rub us the wrong way because you caught us on a bad day. And so it's all really dependent for every grieving person and the relationship to that death.

I'm curious, like, with writing a book that stems so much from your own lived experience, I'm sure a lot of people assume that it's all autobiographical and you're just, like, changing some details or names. So is there anything you want to dispel that everyone's assuming is true to your life that is not actually from your life?

Oh, God. Everyone keeps asking me if Paloma is a specific friend of mine. Paloma is the best friend in the book who is also pregnant at the same time as Cleo.

And they actually deliver on the same day. Except Paloma gives birth to a healthy, living baby, whereas Cleo's baby dies. And so this causes a big strife in their relationship.

Like, Cleo is just deeply envious of Paloma. She can't stand to be around her. She just hates her for how happy she's being. And people would ask me, like, is Paloma so And so in your life?

Is Paloma this person or that person? And I keep always telling them, like, Paloma doesn't exist. She's completely fictional. I never had a friend that was pregnant around the same time as.

As. As I was. I had friends that had small children when Gemma died.

And for sure, like, those friendships, I never had, like, sticky moments with my friends, but their existence did cause me some pain. And seeing them with their living children did cause me a lot of heartache and envy.

And so Paloma was sort of just like a fabricated character who I used as a vessel to carry all that envy and grief and sorrow that I felt. And so when you're grieving, you naturally can't help but feel envious. For everybody in your life who gets to be normal.

I'm sure when you lost your mom, you just looked at someone who has a living mom and was like, you don't even. You don't. You're taking it for granted. Like, you don't even know how lucky you are to have a mom that's alive.

Like, little things like that that happen in your life after you lose someone you love is. Your personal relationships can be affected, whether it's internally or sometimes it's externally.

I feel like the Paloma character works so well as a foil too, with her being like, right across the street with the healthy baby. And just like that added layer of devastation, having to witness it day in and day out, it was just like, really drove it home with Cleo's grief.

Fortunately, I didn't have my best friend with the living baby live right across from me. That is a hell I do not wish on anyone. And so, yeah, it was completely fictional.

For any friends out there that is worried that I wrote about them, I didn't. I'm capable of fictionalizing a story.

Yes. I'm really curious about the Kenneth character as well. Is he. Did he spring from anyone in real life? He was one of my favorites, Kenneth.

Kenneth I also love too, like, sometimes when you write these stories and these fictionalized characters, you just. You end up just having your favorites. And Kenneth was somebody that really surprised me. He's not based on anyone real.

He's just like this perfect angel that's fallen from the sky that gives Cleo exactly the warmth and comfort that she needs in her grief. Even if he comes off as a little strange and weird.

At first, he was just a character I created to sort of show Cleo, Cleo that there is a way to live with grief. And so he sort of acts as, like, the bomb to Cleo's grief.

There's certain characters in the book, like, there's her doctor, Dr. Posey, who sort of acts as, like, an antagonist, someone who keeps Cleo stuck in her grief. And Dr. Posey is also entirely fictional. People always ask me, like, is my doctor also a bitch? I'm like, no, no, no, no.

I have a perfectly amazing doctor. Dr. Posey is completely fake.

I wanted a. I sort of wanted like, a villain character in my book that sort of kept Cleo from moving forward in her life. And Dr. Posey was sort of that kind of wacky character.

Have you read My Year of Rest and Relaxation by Ottessa Moshfegh?

Yes, I did. And there's. I was actually inspired by that doctor character because that's who I was thinking of. Unhinged.

Yeah, the unhinged psychiatrist who's just prescribing her endless pills and like, oh, whatever, sure, you can take these.

I really wanted a character like that because I think Cleo doesn't seek any therapists. Like, Dr. Posey is her only connection to professional help. And this doctor is so horrible and it's so bad.

And, like, messed up her name on the prescription, like, come on.

Yes. And keeps forgetting that her baby died. Like, the worst. I mean, I never had an experience like that with the healthcare system, but I have had experiences where I would tell, like a lab technician, like, my baby died. It's in my record. They would just be like, shrug it off. Or they would just not give me the response I wanted in the moment or they would just be very cold.

So things like experiences like that, I put in Dr. Posey and just exaggerated it by a hundred to show that sometimes for pregnant people or for parents who've lost children, sometimes they can be not treated the best by healthcare system that where, you know, the workers and staff are really overworked, sometimes they're emotionally burnt out. So they're not as warm as you'd like them to be. And so it does happen, unfortunately.

Quick spoiler alert before we talk about this! The novel ends with Cleo having her second child in the hospital and hearing the baby cry.

I'm curious if you considered any other endings for Cleo or, like, why you chose to end on that note for her story.

This was a really hard ending to have. I think I always wanted to end on not a happy note, but a hopeful note.

And I know as a person that has lost a child, the one thing that always aggravated me was people telling me that I will have another baby one day and this baby will fix all my problems and make me happy again. And I was always so fearful that if.

If I included a subsequent pregnancy in the book, that it would dismiss all the grief and all the sorrow that Cleo felt with the death of her first child. I was afraid that adding a subsequent pregnancy would just erase all that pain.

And so I was afraid of adding this pregnancy in because I didn't want to give off the impression that having another baby replaced that baby that died. And so it was a struggle for me to whether to include it or not.

But at the end of the day, I think I wanted a happy ending and I wanted Cleo to have some hope in her life and the most, the quickest way to give a character hope and happiness is through, like, a living child. I know for me, after I had. After I gave birth to my. To my second child after Gemma died, it really, like, brought me so much joy and hope again.

And I was so always afraid of admitting that because I didn't want people to think I was happy even though I was happy. I just didn't want them to think that the grief had gone away. And so it's just.

It's so hard because, like, we live in a world where we just don't have any nuance at all for things like this. Like, grief and joy can coexist, a baby can die, but you can still also be happy for the baby that comes after it while still mourning the. The loss of that first baby. Like, all of these things can happen at the same time. And so I had always wanted to end the note on a hopeful note.

Whether it was through the birth of another child or through some sort of internal revelation, I think it was always my goal to ensure this book ended on a positive note.

I don't know why people have so much trouble with the idea of, like, two things can be true at once, because definitely happens all the time.

It's true. It just doesn't make it for exciting content. Yeah, you know, like, you have to be black or white.

Exactly. You mentioned earlier that you were doing some writing today. Do you have any exciting creative projects on the horizon?

I'm working on another novel. It's still very early in the works, and I'm very excited about this novel. It's completely different from my first two novels.

It has nothing to do with my life, which is actually really refreshing to write something that has nothing to do with any lived experiences you have. And so I would say this is probably, like, even though my first two novels are fiction, I would say this third book is truly a work of fiction.

There's, like, no question whatsoever that this, that anybody in this book is based on anybody I know. I'm having a lot of fun writing this third book. That's all I'll say.

Yeah, that's perfect. I'm glad to hear it, and I can't wait to read it someday. Let's take a quick break and we'll dive into your motherhood experiences. More after that.

// Fanfiction seems to be everywhere lately, but a lot of people are getting everything wrong about fandom. I was an avid Tumblr user and read a lot of Sherlock fanfic when I was in college, but I'm pretty out of the loop on fandom these days.

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Check out this Week in Fandom History wherever you are listening to us now. //

So Mai, I know, like Cleo, you had another child after losing your first.

Can you tell us a little bit about your daughter and how old she is and what she's interested in these days?

So my daughter's name is Leah. She is almost three. She was born about 15 months after Gemma died. And she, she's a, she's a little fireball.

Like, she is always singing, always dancing. She's just so happy. And she just loves hugging everyone. Like almost too many people. She just hugs too many people. She loves giving kisses.

Her favorite shows right now are Trash Truck. Do you know that show? It's on Netflix. They just announced that they're starting a third season.

And literally I think I jumped for joy when they announced that because I was like, yes, I don't have to watch the same 20 episodes over and over again. There will be new episodes. So I was really excited about that.

It's just like a really sweet, quiet show about a boy that's friends with a trash truck. And I love that she loves that show and that I'm excited that new episodes will start soon.

I love that they don't really acknowledge or explain or make a big deal of like the trash truck is coming inside their house for movie night. It's just like a thing that happens, right?

Like, how is he fitting inside the movie theater and the ice cream shop?

We don't need to worry about that.

How did he get in that classroom? It's a great show and she's obsessed with it. She's into a lot of Moana. Like, that's like, all the. Like, all the kids are.

She never actually watched the whole movie. We only watched, like, the YouTube clips of all the songs. But that's basically the gist of it.

We haven't made it through a full movie yet with my son. He's 2, but he's really into clips from cars lately. And he's really into mater the truck, and we've never seen cars.

And he's just watched the YouTube videos of it, but apparently it's doing it for him.

And wherever kids will just think movies are just like, little, short YouTube clips. They're just like, what is. When they eventually see a movie, they're gonna be like, I don't have the attention span.

Was there a moment when you knew that you wanted to try to have another child?

I think there was a while where we were like, maybe we should just not try again. Like, I just. It was just. What happened to us was so devastating.

And everyone kept saying, like, there was nothing we could have done to change the outcome. Like, we made all the right decisions based on the information we knew. And so that.

That was actually kind of upsetting to hear because it was like, what do you mean there was nothing we could have done? Like, how will that make me feel better about future pregnancies? Like, you mean I can do everything right and everything can still go wrong?

And so I was scared for a little while about trying to get pregnant again or even staying pregnant and giving birth. And so it took us a while to decide whether we wanted to try again. But you know what? We were just so sad and so devastated.

We were like, what is there to lose? Like, we've already lost one child. I think we could survive having another child.

Like, we prepared to lose another child again if it meant that we could have a living child. So we went into it thinking, like, we may not get to keep this one either. But let's just try, because we know we're six months out.

We have survived six months. Maybe we could survive another loss. So we were, like, catastrophizing already.

And I've heard that's a very normal thing that happens after you lose a child. You just assume you're always going to lose the next one and the next one and the next one.

And so we didn't really take a breath the entire nine months that I was pregnant. I think we got pregnant around seven months after Gemma had died. And we did not tell a single person. We did not celebrate anything.

We did not buy any clothes or Anything. Not that we needed it because everything had been ready for Gemma.

We had all the clothes, we had all the wipes, the diapers, the bibs, everything ready. And so, no, we didn't buy anything, we didn't celebrate.

It was so funny looking back now, I would, like go out and have lunch and dinners with friends with like a seven month belly and I wouldn't even acknowledge it. Like, it was so obvious I was pregnant, but I wouldn't even say anything.

And I could see people, like looking down at my belly but not saying anything.

Like waiting for me to say something, but I would still not say anything because I was just so superstitious and so scared that if I even mention the pregnancy that I would jinx it and something would go wrong. So for a long time I would just walk around with this belly and just pretend like I wasn't pregnant.

Eventually, like, you know, I told people I was pregnant and they were like, well, duh, you're really huge. And so, yeah, that pregnancy was actually petrifying. I actually think that that nine months of pregnancy was.

And also grieving the loss of Gemma was just like such a horrible time in my life and I really drowned myself in working on my books and writing Clio and just keeping really busy. Fortunately, like, Leah was born alive and healthy and, well, we got referred to a high risk pregnancy doctor.

Even though I technically didn't have a high risk pregnancy, my pregnancy was fairly normal. It was just because of my previous loss. They threw me into the high risk pregnancy category.

And so because of that, I got to have all the placental tests done. Like, they checked my blood work, they changed the. They checked the placental measurements and that reassured me a little bit.

But you can never, ever be comfortable because I'm like, what if there's another stone I'm not turning over? Like, what if there's something else I'm missing?

So there was always a lot of fear that there was like another disease or injury or insufficiency that I didn't know about, that I was not checking. And so fortunately, everything turned out fine. She was born at 38 weeks by a C section and she's been a healthy baby ever since.

That's amazing.

I know it sounds really cheesy, but, like, it's just so impressive and incredible that you have that much hope and strength and optimism that you were able to, like, go through that experience and come out on the other side with a healthy baby now, like, it's wild.

Thank you. I think back and sometimes I feel like, I had to get pregnant in order to survive the grief.

And a lot of moms will say this, they'll say, like, I had to have a baby in order to keep living. There were many days where I was like, I just don't think I could live anymore. Like, this grief is just too big. And so to me, I was like, but if I.

If I was pregnant with another child, then I would have no choice but to stay alive for this child in my. In my belly. And so it was almost like this getting pregnant again was. Gave me a reason to live and to fight to live.

And so sometimes it was like a survival instinct was to just have another child so that I would have a reason to keep on living.

Makes me think of Kenneth's character in your book as well, and how he and his wife weren't able to have a second child and how heartbreaking that was for them, like, trying for years, and it just wasn't in the cards.

I really want to show that other side of parenting after loss. Not all parents have living children after they lose a child. And there can still be hope and joy to be had even if you don't have a living child.

And what does that look like? Like, how did they move through the grief that way? That is not an experience that I have, but I. It exists and it does happen.

I'm glad you represented that with Kenneth and his wife in the book. I'm curious with Gemma's death and how open you've been about it. Like, how does that affect how you talk to your living daughter Leah about her? Do you share about Gemma with her in like, age appropriate ways? Like, what does that look like?

Oh, gosh, I don't know if it's age appropriate. But she knows about Gemma for sure. She definitely knows about her. We have pictures of Gemma all over the house. Gemma had her own stuffed animals.

And so whenever we. Leah plays with it, we say, that's Gemma's stuffed animals.

We have a memorial tree dedicated to Gemma, just like at a park about a 15 minute walk away from us. We go to that tree often and we say, that's Gemma's tree. And there's flowers scoring around the tree.

So she gets to touch the flowers and say that that's Gemma's flowers. We have like a. My husband printed a picture of Gemma onto a pillowcase. And so that is Leah's pillow when she goes to bed.

And so every night she gets to hug Gemma in her sleep. And so Gemma is very much a part of our life. And Leah knows that Gemma is like her sister.

I don't know if she knows that Gemma is dead or if Gemma is just like a picture or like a character in a movie. I actually don't understand how toddlers process that. But she knows Gemma exists.

Like today we were on a walk and we saw two butterflies playing together. And I go, that's Gemma's butterfly. And Leo goes, it's Gemma and Leah's butterfly. And I go, oh, that's really sweet.

You know, sometimes when she's playing with her toys, like, like say she's like doing a little teacup party or something, she'll like put the cup towards Gemma's picture and give Gemma a cup of tea. And so I'm like, oh, that's really nice, Leah. And so yeah, Gemma is very much part of our life.

I don't think she quite knows that Gemma had existed and died or to her. Maybe she just thinks Gemma is always just part of her life. But she is part of her life and she knows about her.

I'm not sure what age you start teaching them about death, but yeah, she does know about her sister.

That's really lovely. I love that she like plays with her and names the butterfly after them. It's so cute.

It's so funny. Like they actually. She also fights over things with Gemma too. Like I'll say like, oh, this, this is Gemma's stuff bear. Like it was give.

It was a gift for her from Uncle Tony. And she'll go, no, that's Leah stuff bear. It's so funny. We have like the sibling, sibling flight for like fights too, despite Gemma not being here.

So the fighting still ex.

It is interesting to think about what toddlers can understand about death. Like not the same level at all, of course, but our neighbor's cat died who was like my toddler loved him. The cat was named Fat Louie.

And we still walk by Louie's house and my son is like, meow, meow, meow. And I'm like, oh yeah. Do you miss Louie? I miss him too. And he'll be like, Louie, Louie.

I wanted to be death positive with him after like learning so much about the death positive movement after my mom and grandma died. But like, I have no idea how to explain this to a 2 year old. And I've just said like, oh yeah, he's not here anymore. I miss him.

I know we both miss him.

Instead of like being like, he went to heaven or he went to a farm, like, I don't want to lie to him, but I think Just leaving it at, like, he's not here anymore is the most I'm doing right now.

I haven't been able to have that conversation with Leah yet. But if she does ever ask, I, like, found the perfect thing to say, which is if she asked me, like, why did Gemma die?

I would just tell her, like, Gemma's body just stopped working. Like, that's a very accurate portrayal of death. Like, her body just stopped working properly.

We're not a religious family, so we don't believe in heaven or angels or reincarnation or whatnot. And so we don't have that kind of language to fall towards. Like, I can't say Gemma's in heaven or Gemma's up in the sky.

Sometimes I'll say Gemma's in my heart, which is like more of an emotional way to describe death. But I think my husband and I have agreed.

Like, we also want to describe death to her at face value as well, but we haven't reached that point yet, so. But when we do, we have a handbook ready for when it happens.

Nice. I was reading a biography of Vincent Van Gogh a while ago and learned that he was named after his brother, the same exact name, Vincent.

And he had died on his birthday the year before, before.

And I was curious if you ever, like, worried or wondered about, like, is Leah gonna feel like she's living in Gemma's shadow or that she has to, like, live up to something or make up for a sister who died? Like, have you thought about that kind of stuff at all?

During the book tours that I've done for Cleo. Dang. I have met several people whose mother has lost a child.

And so when they read my book, they further understood what it was like for their mother to lost that child, a sibling they. That they'd never met. And so I always, like, ask these people, like, did you ever feel like.

Did you ever feel like you lived under the shadow of your parents grief? Or did you ever feel like your parents weren't fully present because they were grieving this child? And for the most part, a lot of them said no.

Like, I felt like my parents were there for me. It's just reading this book has allowed them to learn a little bit more about the grief that they went through.

For the most part, a lot of the people I've talked to who've had siblings that have died who they've never met or they were very young when the sibling died, for the most part, they have happy memories of their childhood and their parents being there. It's just, I think a lot of parents do a really good job of hiding their grief, and I certainly do too.

When I'm thinking of Gemma and feeling sad, I usually cry in private. Sometimes she'll catch me cry and ask me, like, why are you crying? I'll say, oh, I'm just thinking of Gemma, and I just miss her.

But mostly my grief is private. And so she doesn't really see a lot of. A lot of that grief.

And so I think we are doing our best to make sure she gets to grow up not under any shadow. I think the grief will always be part of us.

And I also want to show her our grief as well, too, instead of hiding it, because that is just part of our story and that is part of her origin story of how she came to be here. I think it's a. It's a definitely a learning process for us. There's no parenting book on, like, how do you parent a child after a loss? There's not.

There's a lot of books about how to change a diaper and how to feed and how to sleep train. How do you parent a child after loss and honor that baby and have that sibling know their sibling? Honestly, we are. We're just winging it.

Yeah. It seems like you're doing a great job. I love that you're being open about it and not, like, hiding it or anything.

Oh, thank you.

You mentioned, like, the grief that still comes up from time to time. Is there anything in particular that tends to spark it?

Or is it like, Leah hits a certain age and you think about what Gemma would have been like at that age? That kind of stuff?

Oh, yeah, that happens all the time. Like, I think I think of Gemma almost every day. Like, sometimes it's just. Just a flash of a moment, but sometimes it's in joyful moments, too.

Like when we were just at the. At the cottage last week, Leah and I were trying to squeeze ourselves into a floating donut, and we were just splashing in the water and trying to get all the seaweed away from our feet and stuff.

And just for a quick moment in that moment of, like, pure happiness, I thought about Gemma and I was like, I wonder if Gemma would fit in this floating donut. And if she did, would we sink right now? Like, it was just a very quick thing. It didn't derail. It didn't derail my day. It didn't make me sad. It didn't make me cry. It was just like. It's just a quick thought about Gemma and then we Just resumed our play.

And it's just little moments like that that make me think of Gemma. It's not always in sad moments or happy moments. Sometimes it really is in, like, the most mundane moments.

I'll think about her when I see a butterfly pass spire, when I see a pink flower. More and more these days, I can think of her without breaking down in tears.

Actually, during the publication of my book, I had a lot of emotions, a lot of crying, a lot of tears. I had to. I think it's because I just hadn't really learned how to talk about Gemma publicly. I knew how, but I knew how to post about her and write about her on. On social media, but I hadn't really practice the skill of talking about her to people yet. And so that sort of brought up a lot of grief.

Again, not in a bad way. It was. It was a good thing. Like, I always wanted to be connected to my grief.

I always tell people and I always say in the book, like, I'm actually, like, friends with my grief. I appreciate it when it comes, and I welcome it when it comes because it's just a reflection of the love I have for Gemma.

So it's not something I shy away from or something that I. I don't want to talk about. It's. It's just something that I've welcomed into my life.

And so when people, like, apologize for making me cry or apologizing for asking such personal questions, I'm like, please don't, don't, don't. I am happy to talk about it because it's the only time I get to spend with Gemma. And so I consider it, like, I consider this interview. I consider this the book writing, my time with Gemma, like, all the time that I lost with her.

Would you have been, like, a different parent if Gemma had lived? Like, how do you think you would show up differently as a mom if she were alive?

Oh, I mean, I'm always thinking about that alternate universe. Like, who would I. Who would I have become? Like, what kind of person would I have been?

I definitely think I would have been the less anxious parent for Leah. We just bought, like, every single expensive gadget we could to ensure that Leah would stay alive. Like, we bought the owlet sock. We bought this.

This new bassinet. We bought all the, like, happiest baby swaddles. I think the happiest baby swaddle was invented by a father who had lost a child.

So I was like, I trust him. He knows what he's doing.

He makes the right products so, like, we spent so much money on, like, all the gizmos and gadgets to ensure that our baby would survive. And some people might think it was overboard, but to us, we were like, like, no, no.

Like, we will spend any amount of money to ensure that our baby lives. And so we were definitely very anxious parents because we knew how, like, the reality of babies dying was just right there.

Like, we knew that that was a possibility. For some people, it's like, an impossible. They can't even fathom that their babies could die. But to us, it was like, we knew that was a possibility.

So we did everything we could to ensure that nothing went wrong. And so we were quite anxious.

Like, I remember waking up many nights to, like, make sure she was breathing in the middle of the night and ensuring she was not suffocating from sleep and cutting up all of her snacks really tiny and making sure she sat while she ate, because a lot of toddlers choke when they're eating and running. And so I'm a very anxious parent because I've lost a child.

But on the flip side, I think Gemma's death also made me so much more of a grateful parent. Like, I'm just so grateful to experience all of it.

Like, I'm only three years into parenting a living child, and I'm honestly just so grateful that she's alive and she's made it to the age of three and that she's here. And, like, I do not at all get nostalgic for the infant years. Like, I. I love the baby phase. Like, I miss the baby face so much.

I love my matteleaf, but I'm just so happy to see her grow up and get older and become more independent and grow out of her clothes and get bigger and say bigger words. And it. Because to me, like, with my history, all of that means that she's alive and growing and healthy.

And so, no, when people ask me, like, do I miss the baby years? I'm like, no, I'm grateful that she's alive and growing and getting bigger.

I was going to guess that you were a more joyful parent because of what happened, but the anxiety totally makes sense to the early days of my son's life.

I also don't miss, like, those newborn days because he had to be on a steroid for the first three months of his life, which made him, like, incredibly cranky and hangry. And he just ate, like, every 90 minutes and would eat so much he felt sick and then need to be burped for 45 minutes and then just need to eat.

It was just awful.

Oh, my God, that's so stress inducing.

We also had like a very shocking. He was a month early, he got diagnosed with a rare disease and he was a few days old and then he was able to get treatment for the disease when he was a month old. But it was just like this wild ride and so stressful and scary and everything.

So I am also enjoying, like the toddler era of seeing him be happy and dance around and do things that we never knew if he would be able to do. So it's just a crazy journey being a parent.

A lot of things you take for granted. Like, I feel like a lot of the discourse is around, like, nostalgia for when they're younger, but I just. So I'm just. I'm enjoying every year that they get to be with us.

Yeah. What are, like, some of the harder parts of having an almost three year old these days?

Oh, my God, the eating. Oh, she's such a. Leah is a really picky eater. I don't know if your son is picky eater, but I feel like he.

Used to eat everything and now he only eats snacks.

Oh, really? She. She used to eat. No, I wouldn't say everything, but she used to eat better. But now she's just in this phase where everything has to be plain.

There can be no garnishes or no specks of green onion or nothing in her food at all. Like, one time I made her a butter pasta and she was like, no, plain. I want plain. I mean, I was like, how much more plain do we need to get?

She wanted me to just boil the pasta and leave it like that. She didn't want any sauce, no butter. And I was like, okay, wow, we have reached extreme food phase. Yes.

I thought you meant like airplane, plane.

No, no, no. She. It has to be like white. White and basic.

My son has started stealing the sriracha off the counter when we're having certain meals because my husband puts it on food and he now will take the bottle and like, ask for it on his food and then he eats it. It's like making crazy faces. But he like always wants to. Wants to have some.

Oh, really? Each time he just thinks it's going to be a different experience.

I don't know. Yeah, he wants to be part of it. And he brings a pepper grinder to bedtime lately. I don't know why he's doing that.

Oh, wow.

He brings it upstairs with pepper in it.

Yeah, yeah, I get pepper on my arms when we're reading stories and, like, I don't know what's going on, but this is not causing any harm, so whatever.

That's so funny. They just bring the weirdest.

They're so weird. Yeah.

How are they not sneezing? How's he not sneezing every night? That's so funny.

Are there any books you've really enjoyed about motherhood? Whether it's fiction or nonfiction or. You could share recommendations of books to read with your kid, too.

I really loved another. I have to shout out another Canadian author named Charlene Carr. She wrote a book called Hold My Girl. It's. It's a novel about two women.

One mother who has an IVF baby and one mother who suffers a stillbirth. And they actually discovered that their eggs were switched at the fertility clinic.

And so they sort of have to learn how to raise this baby that's theirs, but not really theirs. And so I just thought it was such a. Like a. Such a gripping and entertaining way to write about motherhood and what it means to. To be a mother.

It's called Hold My Girl by Charlene Carr. I would check that out. Some books I've really liked with my daughter. Oh, there's this one book that we read. The title caught my eye immediately.

It was called Gemma and the Giant Girl. We read it at least, like, once a week. It's a story about a girl named Gemma who lives in a house with her parents.

And all of a sudden, a giant girl appears through the window and picks them up and puts clothes on them and tosses them around. And at the end of the story, we realize that Gemma's actually a doll, an actual girl. I just love that story.

It's our way of incorporating Gemma into our lives while getting some reading in. And I think it's just such a great little story.

That sounds cool. I'll have to check it out. We've been doing Give a pig a pancake a lot.

And then we just got the Give a moose a muffin, Give a mouse a cookie out from the library. So we're doing that whole universe.

Oh, wow. Yeah. Once they get onto, like, a series, you're like, well, now I gotta grow and buy all those series.

He's big on pointing at all the golden books on the back of a golden book. So you have to get all the other ones out from the library.

Oh, yeah. I hate how they put all the book covers on the back of the books because then they're just like, I want that. And. Yeah, and that. And you're like.

And he's always asking for one that we, like, just returned to the library the week before or something. I'm like, we don't have it anymore. Sorry.

Oh, yeah. When I return library books, I have to do it by myself.

Be sneaky.

Won't let me let them go.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Are there any particular parts of motherhood bringing you lots of joy lately?

Oh, now that it's summer, like, I just. I love, like, planning things, like planning our weekends, planning what to do after daycare, pickups. Like, it's just so fun to be like, okay, so tomorrow we're gonna get ice cream and then go to the splash pad. And the day after, we're gonna go meet up with so and so and. And have a sandwich at the market.

And then this weekend, we're gonna go to the gym, like, to the zoo. Like, it's just so fun, like, planning out your days, like, so meticulously. Like, I never used to do that in my past. I would just.

Like, the weekend would come, and I would just wing it, be like, okay, I guess I'm going to the patio. I'm going to the park.

Now it's kind of, like, you kind of have to, like, fill each evening and night with something fun to do, whether it's big or small. It's just like, I. I think I just love actively look, like, planning fun into our schedule. And having a kid, like, forces you to do that.

And it's nice to have a little buddy to, like, come with you to, like, check out new restaurants where you get to try out treats.

I've been eating a lot of ice cream these days, and I wouldn't normally eat this much ice cream, but because I have a toddler and, like, guess I'm having ice cream for the fifth time this week, so that's fun. You kind of get to be a child again.

We've got a lot of ice cream treats in our freezer, and we're having them, like, most nights. And my husband's like, this is a lot of ice cream. And I'm like, but it's summer, and we're making memories.

I'm actually lactose intolerant.

Oh, really?!

I'm actually lactose, but I feel like eating all this ice cream has actually, like, made me not lactose intolerant. Like, I've just built up, like, a resilience to this lactose. And so. I'm good. I'm good. I'm fine. I'm cured.

Perfect. Well, thanks so much for taking the time to talk. This was really wonderful getting to chat with you more, Mai.

Thanks so much, Emily. I enjoyed this chat.

This has been a prison presentation of the Lunchador Podcast Network.