This week I'm joined by the wonderful Christine Cunningham of Perinatal Wellbeing Ontario. Despite sailing through motherhood with her first two children, Christine went on to suffer postnatal depression and anxiety with the birth of her third. In this mega-episode, Christine talks about the shock diagnosis of finding out she had ADHD at the age of 40, when seeking a diagnosis for her son. Christine talks so eloquently about the huge impact this has had on her life and on her role as a mother. A must listen for anyone affected by ADHD.

*TRIGGER WARNING: Postnatal Depression, Anxiety, ADHD*

IN THIS EPISODE WE DISCUSS:

[00:44] Introducing Christine (including her podcast, 'Perinatal Wellbeing').

[02:44] Life before having children - looking back and realising that anxiety was already present in her life.

[03:41] Her oldest son's diagnosis of ADHD and the link back to her.

[04:19] Feeling 'chilled' during pregnancy, labour and delivery and the link between lower levels of oestrogen and ADHD.

[06:00] Having to coach the terrified resident doctor from ER during her first labour!

[07:52] Not doubting herself with her first two sons, but suffering from intense anxiety and guilt with her third.

[10:06] Experiencing the 'baby blues' with her first and how that differed from the postnatal depression she suffered with her third son

[12:15] The expectation that you 'know what to do' by the third pregnancy / struggles with breastfeeding.

[13:05] "I couldn't get my shit together" - developing a fear of leaving the house or being alone with her 3 kids.

[14:40] How this anxiety impacted on her relationship with her older children.

[15:17] Realising straight away that something felt 'off'. Excessive crying, excessive guilt and not being able to make a decision.

[19:16] The fear of going back 'to that place'.

[21:00] Feelings of grief about the experience we lost in early motherhood.

[23:35] Recovery isn't linear - the fear of 'slipping back'.

[24:51] The hell of PND/PPD and the feeling of clarity and gratitude Christine felt when she started to recover.

[27:16] The role of medication and hormones. Introducing the 'Fanny Club'!

[30:24] Davina - fitness videos and the menopause.

[31:24] The impact of hormones on symptoms of ADHD.

[32:04] Getting a diagnosis for her son.

[33:35] Biological males and biological females present differently with ADHD. The misconceptions and stereotypes of ADHD 'behaviour'.

[34:52] Looking back - how the diagnosis helped her make sense of her past, the feeling that she was always 'missing the mark'.

[36:34] ADHD does not mean you're not intelligent! The benefits of a neurodivergent mind.

[38:54] The lack of support for adults with ADHD.

[39:48] The link between ADHD and GAD (General Anxiety Disorder).

[40:46] Christine's initial bias against ADHD medication. The lack of support available when you don't take medication.

[43:02] How an anxiety programme helped with her son's feelings of anger and frustration.

[44:19] Vikki's brother's friend given Ritalin in the 1980s. Christine's concerns over medication.

[45:55] Christine's discovery that unmedicated ADHD is what can lead to addiction - not the medication itself.

[46:52] The stress of homeschooling during the Covid pandemic.

[49:15] The role of executive functioning and how it is impaired by ADHD.

[50:19] Finding the right medication - 'it's been lifechanging'.

[54:27] Mark Williams' late diagnosis of ADHD (see the 'Daddy Blues' episodes). The importance of validation.

[57:37] The intersection of ADHD and postpartum depression. The role of hormones.

[01:00:21] The 'fight or flight' panic of PND and postnatal anxiety. The role of the prefrontal cortex and impaired executive functioning.

[01:05:07] Overwhelm.

[01:09:27] How to get hold of Christine.

[01:10:22] Recommended listen - how you can hear Christine's fantastic podcast, 'Perinatal Wellbeing'.

KEY TAKEAWAYS:

1. NHS information on ADHD
2. ADDA - the Attention Deficit Disorder Association
3. Additude Magazine - article on Executive Dysfunction in those with ADHD
4. ADHD UK - peer support, created by people with ADHD for those with ADHD
5. The ADHD Foundation - the neurodiversity charity
6. Perinatal Wellbeing Ontario – Christine’s website
7. The Perinatal Wellbeing Podcast

If you enjoyed this episode, please share, rate and subscribe. It really does make the difference in helping others find it – which means helping more parents in need.

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Email: bluemumdays@gmail.com

NEXT EPISODE:

In a Movember male-mental-health special, I chat to Professor Viren Swami. Viren is Professor of Social Psychology at Anglia Ruskin University and is ranked in the top 2% of 'most-cited scientists' in the world. Viren's research is focused on the promotion of positive body image in diverse cultural groups, as well as mental health literacy and understandings of mental ill-health.

His work has moved on to include paternal postnatal depression following Viren's own struggles with fatherhood. He talks to me very candidly about the effects of suffering from PND after the birth of his son. Not to be missed.

SUPPORT:

If you are struggling right now, please know that it’s okay to talk and reach out for help. 

YOU ARE NOT ALONE AND WILL NOT FEEL THIS WAY FOR EVER. 

We hope these support services are helpful (please note we do not check or monitor them individually).

Action on Postpartum Psychosis (APP)

Moderated Forum, click here to find out more.

Email: app@app-network.org

Tel: 020 3322 9900

ADDA - the Attention Deficit Disorder Association

National Resource Center (NRC)/ADHD Helpline Health Information Specialists

866-200-8098, Monday-Friday, 1 p.m. — 5 p.m. ET

ADHD UK - peer support, created by people with ADHD for those with ADHD

The ADHD Foundation - the neurodiversity charity

Call us - 0151 541 9020

Email - info@adhdfoundation.org.uk

AIMS for better birthing.

Email: helpline@aims.org.uk

This email will go to a group of AIMS volunteers and someone will respond as soon as possible.

Telephone: +44 (0) 300 365 0663

You will be able to leave a voicemail message which will be sent to all our Helpline Volunteers. Please include your name, phone number and brief details of your enquiry. A Volunteer will try to call you back as soon as possible.

Andy's Man Club

A non-judgemental talking group for men

https://andysmanclub.co.uk/club-information/clubs/

Email: info@andysmanclub.co.uk

Association of Postnatal Illness

Helpline: 10am – 2pm – 0207 386 0868

Email: info@apni.org

Live chat online facility

Best Beginnings

Free NHS-accredited Baby Buddy app offering

evidence-based information and self-care tools to help parents during pregnancy

and early stages of parenting.

App users also have access to a confidential, text-based Crisis Messenger which provides

24/7 support for new and expectant parents who are feeling extremely anxious or overwhelmed.

Bi-Polar UK

email: info@bipolaruk.org

Birth Trauma Association

Email: support@birthtraumaassociation.org.uk

CALM

Contact CALM

on their national helpline: 0800 58 58 58 (5pm-midnight)

Cedar House Support Group

Email: lwise@talktalk.net (Liz Wise)

Mobile: 07773 283556

Contact: for families with disabled children

Support, advice and information for parents with disabled children.

• helpline: 0808 808 3555
• website: https://contact.org.uk/

DadsNet 

Offers support and knowledge through a community of dads on practical parenting and fatherhood.

Family Lives

An organisation providing immediate help from volunteer parent support workers 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

• helpline: 0808 800 2222
• website: www.familylives.org.uk

Family Rights Group

Support for parents and other family members whose children are involved with or need social care services.

• helpline: 0808 801 0366
• website: www.frg.org.uk

Fathers Reaching Out

https://www.reachingoutpmh.co.uk/

Run by Mark Williams, campaigner, speaker and writer, offering support to dads.

FiveXMore

A grassroots organisation committed to changing Black women and birthing people’s maternal health outcomes in the UK.

Email: fivexmore@gmail.com

Gingerbread

Single parents, equal families. Help and advice on the issues that matter to lone parents.

• helpline: 0808 802 0925
• website: www.gingerbread.org.uk

The Hub of Hope

A directory of mental health support around the UK.

LGBT Mummies

Supporting LGBT+ women & people globally on the path to motherhood or parenthood.

Email: contact@lgbtmummies.com

Make Birth Better (Birth Trauma Support)

Email: hello@makebirthbetter.org

Maternal OCD

Peer support available, email info@maternalocd.org to

arrange

Mayah's Legacy

Supporting and empowering anyone who has experienced pregnancy loss to advocate for themselves.  

Email: info@bigoutreach.org

0300 102 1596

The Motherhood Group

Dedicated to sharing and supporting the black maternal experience through peer support, projects and advocacy.

info@themotherhoodgroup.com

Motivational Mums Club

Offering Trauma, Mindfulness and Meditation sessions for Mothers and Mums to be with an NHS Mental Health Specialist, who’s also a Mother.

motivationalmumsclub@gmail.com

Music Football Fatherhood

Open conversations around fatherhood, including blogs, peer support and podcasts.

hello@musicfootballfatherhood.com

Muslim Women’s Network

Helpine: 0800 999 5786, open Mon-Fri 10am –

4pm with support offered in English, Urdu, Punjabi, Mirpuri, Putwari, Hindko,

and Bengali.

Email: info@mwnhelpline.co.uk

Online chat: www.mwnhelpline.co.uk

Text: 07415 206 936

Netmums

Netmums offer peer support via their Maternal Mental Health Drop-In

Clinic.

NHS

Contact your local GP surgery.

Call the NHS on 111

or contact a local NHS urgent mental health helpline

If you are in crisis, visit Accident & Emergency at your nearest hospital.

PANDAS

Helpline open from 9am-8pm every day – 0843 2898 401

Email support available – info@pandasfoundation.org.uk

Perinatal Wellbeing Ontario

PRENATAL, PREGNANCY AND POSTPARTUM SUPPORT & CONNECTION in Canada

info@perinatalwellbeing.ca

Petals

Petals offers free-of-charge specialist counselling to anyone who has experienced pregnancy

or baby loss.

Web: petalscharity.org/counsellingcontact/

Email: counselling@petalscharity.org

Tel: 0300 688 0068

Samaritans

Tel: 116 123

(this is a free telephone number and will not appear on the phone bill)

Web: www.samaritans.org

Email: jo@samaritans.org

Sands Charity

Emotional and practical support for anyone affected by the death of a baby.

0808 164 3332

Email: helpline@sands.org.uk

Shout

Text SHOUT to...

Having a baby is meant to be the most joyful time of your life.

But for many mums and dads, it can be the hardest and at

times the darkest of places.

Welcome to Season 2 of Blue MumDays, the podcast for anyone

struggling with parenting.

All the stories shared here are from the heart.

These are real conversations and may be triggering, so

please listen with discretion.

We will also signpost you to help in the show notes.

Thank you.

This episode was recorded during the spring of 2022.

Today's guest is Christine Cunningham, founder and director at Perinatal

Wellbeing Ontario in Canada.

Christine also works as a perinatal mental health therapist in private practice.

She hosts a weekly podcast, Perinatal Wellbeing, where she interviews

guests around all things perinatal mental health and wellbeing.

Christine lives with her husband, three boys and two dogs in Ontario.

She suffered with postpartum anxiety and depression after her third son was born.

Luckily, she was able to recover and be well again with medication and therapy.

Christine was also diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 40, which has been very helpful

in explaining many of her struggles in her day-to-day life, as well as in parenting.

That experience changed Christine's life for the better.

She returned to school and trained to become a perinatal counsellor and

she also set up her not-for-profit Perinatal Wellbeing Ontario.

Just one thing to apologise to listeners, we are recording over

Zoom, over the Atlantic Ocean.

So, there may be sort of bits of dropout, so apologies for that but

it's the only way I can get the amazing Christine on my podcast at the moment.

So,

Hi Christine.

Welcome to Blue MumDays.

Thank you so much for joining us today.

Hi, Vikki.

Thank you so much for having me on the podcast.

I'm so excited.

Likewise.

I'm a huge fan of your podcast, and I'll make sure I put links in the show notes.

You talk so eloquently, not only about your own experience, but actually

interviewing guests, covering everything from ectopic pregnancies to intrusive

thoughts, which is a really common factor in in perinatal mental health.

But I'm particularly interested to talk to you today about your experience in

terms of getting an ADHD diagnosis and how that sort of impacted on how you

felt about the experiences you'd had.

But before we get started, can you just tell us a little bit about

your background, what you were like before you had children- how it was

with the first two sons and then how it changed with your third boy?

Absolutely.

So before I had kids I was young and carefree and.

No, I'm just kidding!

But before I had kids, um, it's interesting because

looking back, I can see now how anxiety was present in my life.

And I noticed that a lot when people do seek support for postnatal anxiety, where

we'll kind of do some looking back and they'll say the same thing: "anxiety's

always been present", but then when we have it in the postpartum period, it seems

like it's too much, it's too overwhelming.

Or maybe we get to this point where we can't manage anymore.

So I definitely notice that for myself, um, I did not know, I didn't

even have ADHD on the radar until about 33 when my oldest was diagnosed.

And so I would always just say, "Oh, he's so much like me.

He's so much like me."

And then he got his diagnosis and the psychiatrist is like, "Well, he

either got it from you or his dad."

And I'm like, "well, he definitely didn't get it from his dad".

His dad is very like, calm and cool and collected.

And so I started looking back and so definitely in hindsight, I can see before

having kids, how it was affecting my life.

However, interestingly enough with my pregnancies I was very 'chill'.

And I thought I would be, not 'chill', because I always thought, oh my gosh,

like "I'm such a baby with pain", or, you know, "I complain a lot".

Like I feel every somatic experience that I have, which

I now know is common in ADHD.

I think because we're so hyper aware of our own bodily sensations,

our own emotions, so we just notice those things a lot more.

But in pregnancy I was like "Okay, I got this.

It's all good".

And in labor and delivery I was very calm, which I was not expecting at all.

So that really surprised me.

And I loved being pregnant.

I loved labouring and delivering, you know, if I could have 10 babies,

and give them away to people who would like them, or, you know, surrogacy.

I thought of that.

I would love to do that.

But anyways, I loved giving birth, which again, can sound

weird, but that was my experience.

And, um, interestingly enough, lower levels of oestrogen can

exacerbate our symptoms of ADHD.

And so in pregnancy we have high levels of oestrogen.

And so now I'm wondering, is that why I felt so chill?

Because I had high levels of oestrogen There was a resident

when I had my first baby.

And 'cause they didn't believe that I was ready to push so

they didn't call my doctor.

So my doctor got there just as he was delivered.

So they had to get a resident from the ER who had never delivered a baby.

And you could tell she was terrified.

I am ready to push.

Like I'm in the moment and I say to her, "It's okay, we can do this together".

And she's looking at the nurse like, "Can I do this?"

I'm like, "You can do it because you don't have a choice.

I have to do this.

You do too."

And I was like, totally chill, totally calm.

It was all good.

Oh my God.

I mean, when you're at your most vulnerable and then you feel like

you're putting your life in their hands and your child's life in their hands.

For them to just go like "first day at the job!"

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, and I think if it, it wasn't like pregnancy and delivery again, where maybe

there was high levels of oestrogen which helped, any other circumstance I probably

would've been freaking out, you know?

So anyways, that was interesting.

It's amazing when you talk about "Oh, my husband's so

different to me, he's so chill".

And yet the way you present yourself on your podcast and just

chatting to you, you know, for a few minutes now, you seem so Zen!

Wow.

You know, I, I'm feeling soothed just listening to you talk, So

Wow.

Thank you.

That's a big compliment.

Yeah, it's interesting.

I think it just depends on the situation.

Again, if I feel like "I've got this, it's okay", then let's just go with the flow.

Whereas in situations where, you know, maybe I am out of my depth or

I don't know what I'm doing, that's definitely where I can be more like

super anxious or doubting myself.

And so that was really interesting to me with my first two I didn't

doubt myself as a parent, which I know again, sounds probably really strange.

But I was like, "I know I'm gonna make mistakes".

I was making mistakes, of course I was, I didn't know what I was doing.

But I always knew, like deep down in my heart, in my core, that

"I'm the best mum for my boys."

I knew that without a doubt.

What was interesting after having and experiencing postnatal anxiety

with my third was that doubt came in you know, that intense guilt.

Of course the mum guilt was there, you know, before, but not to this intensity.

And that was the first time where I doubted myself as a mum.

You know, I, I had all those intrusive thoughts of not being a good enough mom.

And so, um, that is a big piece that I notice was different with my first

two than with after having my third.

And that's something that has stuck with me, that I still carry,

where sometimes I'm like, "Oh, I don't know what I'm doing here."

But not in a chill way.

More like, "Oh God, what do I do?

I can't do this."

And is that just with your third, or is it generally as a mum now?

Yeah.

And it's generally as a mum now with all of them.

And now that I have a teenager, well, I have a teenager.

The second one is gonna be a teenager in a month.

So, um, yeah, room

for

My goodness.

you do not look old enough to be a mum of a teenager, but that, that's

a whole nother world I'm dreading.

I'm beginning to sense Stanley being slightly less into cuddles now and if

I sort of go to give him a kiss, I'm presented with the top of his head.

It's like the head is thrust.

Yes, yes.

Or I go in for a hug and I get like my middle one just, he

lets me hug him from behind.

"Okay, thanks."

Yeah, yeah.

yeah.

Oh God.

We'll have to do a whole separate podcast in a couple of years on that!

Exactly.

Um, it's interesting too, I did have the baby blues with my first but that

was really that textbook two weeks.

And then, you know, it's like I woke up the next day and the

clouds had parted and the sun was shining and I felt completely fine.

So that was really interesting 'cause I'm able now to really

understand the fundamental difference.

Like, the baby blues is not postpartum depression and postpartum

depression is not the baby blues.

So it's really like, if those symptoms are extending beyond those couple

of weeks, then that's where, you know, it's important to pay attention

and just see what's going on.

Right?

But definitely with my first, you know, I, I like to be honest and open and.

When I gave birth, I was in love and I was like, "Oh my God, I love him so much!"

And then the baby blues hit and then I thought, "Oh my God, what have I done?"

Like, "we've made a huge mistake."

He was planned.

All three of my kids were planned.

But like, once I had him and he was on the outside, I thought,

"Oh my gosh, can we just put him back in for like, just a week?

Like, gimme a week to figure this out.

Cause I don't know what I'm doing."

And I think it's so much more common than we talk about and I think it's

important just to normalize that like, I can love my son and I can have

major fear of being a parent, or some days I don't want to parent, right?

Like, especially with teenagers, there's some days I'm like, "I, I can't do this.

I can't do it."

Yeah.

And that isn't something that necessarily stops after the first couple of years

because with your eldest, obviously every time they go through a new phase, it's

the first time you're dealing with it.

And I know from friends who have gone on to have two or three children

that actually the new babies take care of themselves to an extent.

Because "I know what I'm doing now.

I know how that bit works, but I'm chasing after my toddler who was going through a

new phase, and that is the mental anguish.

Yeah.

And it's so interesting you say that Vikki because I definitely felt that with my

second and then, you know, with my third, I was having that same feeling again.

Like, "okay, it's the third.

You know, we'll, we'll figure it out.

Been there, done that."

Even everyone around me was very like, you know, my doctor never asked like, "How

are you feeling emotionally, mentally?"

Those questions were never asked of me.

Even though I had major struggles with nursing, I had, that's another podcast

episode, but major struggles with nursing, which I believe impacted my mental health.

You know, I was never asked.

And even my doctor was like, "Oh, it's your third", even kind of

preparing for labour and delivery or, you know, it was just "you've

got this", but I didn't have it.

Um, and so that feeling of like, Okay, third baby, I know more what I'm doing.

We'll get into a routine easily.

And then when that wasn't happening, I was like, "What is wrong with me?

What is going on?"

Because I couldn't get my shit together.

I couldn't, you know, getting out the door with three kids was so hard, which

let's just normalise, like that's hard.

That is hard right?

Especially like in the early days, when it's probably taking you an hour

to pack the bag, get everything ready, baby's ready and you get to the latch

of the door and they poo themselves right up the back, change the thing...

then they're hungry so you have to feed them...

Absolutely.

And so it was like, I'm thinking to myself, "Well, it's my third,

this should not be a problem.

Like, you can change a diaper, you can get out the door, you know, you can

deal with it if your kid poos right up their back and they need a bath,

and then you gotta- you can do that.

But I wasn't able to and I didn't know why.

I didn't know that postpartum anxiety was present.

And so it was more the judgment that I think was really hindering me

that like, "what's wrong with you?

Just do it.

Just get out of the house.

Like it's not a big deal."

And it was a big deal.

It felt impossible.

And then I actually developed a fear of leaving the house with the three kids,

of being alone with the three kids.

Like, "I can't handle this, I can't do it."

And so that kind of like, "okay, the baby can sort themselves out and

then you take care of the toddlers."

In that case, with my third, I couldn't even deal with my toddlers because I was

so obsessed with nursing my third and getting it right for my last time that I

actually couldn't deal with my toddlers.

They had to be like hyper independent.

I fed them and that was about it, to be honest with you.

So that was a big struggle.

How early did you realize you weren't coping or that

something had changed this time?

I knew, like from when I gave birth.

We left the hospital at like one o'clock in the morning.

So here you are released from hospital 24 hours after delivery, 'cause they

check the baby's hearing, they do their tests and then off you go.

But, so he was born like 11:30 at night, they did his ear hearing test

at like around midnight and so we could go at 1:00 AM but the nurse was like,

"You can stay, like you're more than welcome to stay till the morning and like

leave not under the cloak of darkness."

And I was like, No, like "Steven, get me out of here.

I have to get out of here."

And I was kind of like frantic.

We left at 1:00 AM and like at that point we had moved outside of the city, so

we were an hour away from the hospital.

The baby was crying the whole way home and I was just like "I can't deal with this.

I can't cope."

So I knew like I was feeling off, but of course I was like, I just

had a baby, like it's normal.

And then that like feeling of 'I can never get my shit together' was present

like very quickly- very, very quickly.

But I just kept chalking it up to my challenges with nursing.

"Just keep trying harder, keep trying harder.

You'll feel better.

That's why you feel off, because the nursing is not going well."

I had to, you know, I talked about this in my podcast too, but I

had so many doctors appointments constantly, so I'm like, "Okay.

Of course I feel off, like I'm constantly running around.

I have three kids, you know, the other two need my attention.

Of course, no big deal."

But I would say fairly quickly, even after a couple weeks, the excessive

crying, the excessive guilt, again not being able to make a decision.

Which is -for better or for worse- is not me.

Like I tend to make decisions quickly, you know, through impulsivity.

Um, however, being stuck in decision making is not something I was used to.

That's a huge thing that certainly for me, that resonates so much.

I remember being like paralysed with fear sort of on a daily basis trying to

decide what to dress baby Stanley in.

And it's like, "Am I making the right choice?

Is he gonna be cold?

Am I gonna endanger him by having him in too many layers -that doesn't look right.

Okay, I'm gonna change."

and still I, I don't think I've ever quite got my confidence in decision

making back and, when you go from a- you know, a fairly well functioning

human being to somebody that cannot make a decision like that or panics

in the middle of a supermarket because they're like really overthinking

every single choice about like, which pasta brand to go with or, Yeah.

It's really crippling and really scary.

You're also looking at yourself from the outside thinking

like, "Why can't you make this decision?"

Like there was definitely a part of me that was present saying like,

"You can make these decisions, why aren't you doing it?"

And there was that disconnect.

And I agree and, you know, I, I take that into my work, but also

for myself is like that anxiety, you know, all those symptoms that we

experienced take us away from ourselves.

Because it's this part, right?

It's the anxious part or it's the depression part.

It's the mum part, right?

It's not Vikki or Christine.

So then you are doubting Vikki, right?

Like these parts are doubting you maybe even a little bit still and, and so

it's, I think there's a lot of work and recovery after experiencing postnatal

anxiety or depression or any of those PMADS in recovering from that experience

and healing these trauma wounds sometimes.

I don't know about you, but the fear of going back to that place was...

I mean, it's still very present for me.

However, in those first few years, it was terrifying.

If I had a bad day, like mentally where I wasn't feeling well, I would be so upset

thinking, "Oh my gosh, it's happening.

I'm gonna be like how I was then and I'm not gonna cope now because I've, I've

been doing okay and if I slide back, I'm gonna have to go to the hospital.

Like, what's the next step?

You know, How much more can I be medicated until I need to, like, be hospitalised?"

You know, it's just this fear of like, maybe it was just a bad day.

Maybe I just woke up on the wrong side of the bed or I had a difficult

interaction at school or work.

'Cause at that point then I was in school training.

So that fear is very real.

And now I see that as like we need to, you know, have support when we have, let's

say postpartum depression or anxiety.

But then almost like past the year mark, we need like a recovery plan or we need

treatment specifically for that like wound that we can carry from that experience.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know if listeners can hear, but I've been nodding furiously throughout

this past few minutes exactly like when I listened to your very first

episode on your podcast, because everything you were saying resonated,

you know, from the breastfeeding, that sort of agitation of like, "I've

gotta get out, I've gotta get out."

Funnily enough I was gonna move on to this next about, in your podcast you talk

about the year sort of anniversary and that feeling of grief for the maternity

leave that you didn't enjoy or the experience you didn't get to have.

And that is something I still feel profoundly and I think every birthday and

like Stanley's gonna be ten this year, so this is like, I still haven't quite gotten

over it, but yeah, I feel a grief there.

Absolutely.

And I think it's helpful and important to acknowledge that grief never goes away.

This grief that we feel for those experiences in the first year

is the same type of grief we feel when we lose a loved one.

It's just a different context.

And we know when we lose a loved one, that grief never goes away.

We just kind of grow and change around the grief.

And so it's not necessarily as acute as when it first happens,

it will always be with us.

And I think I had to do some, you know, reconciling with that, that

those feelings will always be with me.

When I say trauma wound, I'm very visual.

And so I think of, you know, at the beginning when we have those

post-trauma symptoms of like intense fear or avoidance or flashbacks, things

like that, it's like an open wound.

It's oozing, it's bleeding, it's not nice.

And then with help, with time, with therapy, sorry, I shouldn't

say time because time...

it does not heal all wounds, that's not a thing.

But in that time, if we're going to therapy or doing the work to

heal the wounds, it will heal and then we will have a scar.

So when you look at that scar, it's not oozing, it's not bleeding, it's not

sore to the touch, but when you look at it, you know where you got that scar.

You know, when you look at it, "Oh, that was my experience of postnatal

depression or anxiety, and that sucked.

It wasn't what I wanted.

It was terrible, but I'm not also brought back to those feelings

of intensity from that time."

So that's, kind of like what I like to see for myself and for people, you

know, I'm supporting is, okay, can we think about those times and acknowledge

those feelings, but not be like in those feelings of intensity anymore?

Yeah.

But to acknowledge it, and actually it's okay to feel grief, it's okay to

mourn the start to motherhood that you kind of expected or had hoped for.

Another incredibly important point is about, you know, how

recovery isn't a linear thing.

And I think once you've been through something so dark, it's very, very

easy that as soon as you get a blip, whether it's circumstantial, something

that's happened, that's very stressful in your life, whether it's societal,

like with the horrific war in Ukraine, the pandemic, or whether it's, you know,

it could be hormonal, it could be to do with your cycle, but you're just having

a really bad time and you're struggling.

Following a period of feeling emotionally well.

It is terrifying.

That fear that, you know, "oh my God, I'm going backwards.

I'm slipping back to that."

And something that I learned through attending Liz Wise's support group

that I found very, very helpful was her talking about the fact that

it's not like an upwards trajectory.

You know, if you looked at a graph of, somebody's recovery from

postnatal depression or anxiety, it is literally jagged up and

down, up and down, up and down.

And again, that's okay.

That's okay.

It's not great that you feel bad, but don't beat yourself up about it.

It doesn't mean you're not making progress..

Absolutely.

making

Absolutely.

Cause I think, again, like when we're in- I call it hell- for me my

personal experience with postpartum anxiety and depression was hell.

I would not wish that on anybody.

It was the worst time of my life.

So for me, when you get some relief from that and you're like,

"Oh my gosh, thank you so much".

Like, I remember when my medication started kicking in and, and I talk

about it like the fog was lifting.

The clouds were parting, and I could actually see what was around me.

I could see my sons, I could see them for like themselves, like for their,

you know, cute, funny, smart, gorgeous little beings as opposed to, you know,

these two kids that were annoying me and getting in my way because I

was trying to nurse my little one.

Right?

And so that to me was like, I was just so grateful to be able to see

them again through this like, loving lens, and to be able to connect to

the world around me and connect myself.

And so then when we, like you said, like have that bad day, it's a

panic, like, "Oh my God, what if this means I'm going back to hell?"

Like to that time that was hell for me.

I can't do it.

Right?

It's terrifying.

Like I had a visceral reaction and, uh, yeah, I mean, yeah, I had a very

visceral reaction a couple of times when I had, um, I had gone off my

medication to try to be 'normal' or 'I don't need medication anymore'.

And it did not go well.

And so that visceral reaction of when I wasn't feeling well, I remember it like

it was yesterday, and I almost like, I was very close to saying to my husband,

You need to take me to the hospital.

And so I started my medication again the next day.

Unfortunately, I had to wait three weeks to get better.

However, just knowing like, "Okay, I've started my medication

again, it's gonna kick in.

I have to take care of myself here.

I gotta slow down" was helpful and I made it through.

But in that moment, that fear is just so intense.

And that, whole sort of thing about medication is, I remember it's

something, you know, and again, that's probably like a whole podcast into

itself, but, but that feeling of, "how long am I gonna feel like this for?

How long am I gonna have to stay on the medication?

Is it gonna make me artificially happy when I'm not happy?"

And, you know, gosh, nine and a half years on, I'm still on the meds.

I've tried to come off them and it took me back to hell.

And I've just come to terms, you know now, if I need to take them

for the rest of my life and it gives me 'me' back, I'm fine with that.

If I was diabetic, I would need insulin.

I'm asthmatic, so I need my steroid inhaler.

I'm fine with that, You know, so be it.

It's, incredible your description of when you came up for air, Because for

me, I remember trying to describe it to my husband and to me, it would feel

like sort of surfacing, resurfacing above water after being submerged.

And it's that feeling of suddenly being able to breathe and gulp air

again and have a clarity to everything.

And just this feeling of like a weight off your shoulders.

And I, I could have that in a day, a single day of like being really bad

and then "actually everything's okay.

Everything's okay."

And I'm sure hormones played a big part.

Of that with me, but it didn't matter, you know, Even if it was like, okay, a

week before my, period was due I'd be so far down a deep black hole you

know, I just think this is the reality.

This is the reality, not feeling emotionally well.

And funnily enough, one of my best friends, we both have this thing called

the 'Fanny Club', where if one of us is like in that deep, dark hole, the

other normally knows "Okay, you're gonna come on in about a week's time.

So my job is to remind you that this is not the reality, that

actually everything's okay."

So we have a fanny alert

we're

to.

I love that.

That is amazing, right?

It's like, let's just put this out there.

Let's be honest about what we're experiencing and then yeah.

How can we help each other?

Right?

It's like, it's just talking.

It's sharing our realities, it's being honest with ourselves and with the

people around us about how we're feeling.

And that's not always easy, but I, I love that concept of, you know,

can I be a part of the Fanny Club?

You can Totally, Yeah.

Cause

also you know, WhatsApping and saying like, I'm being a fanny at

the moment, it's, a shorthand for saying "everything's overwhelming.

I want to run away.

I don't see there's a way out".

But anyway, Yeah, and, and we haven't even talked about things like menopause.

Thank God people are now beginning to be much more open about, you

know, it's really debilitating.

It can be horrific, you know, how the hell did our mothers go through it and

just keep quiet about the whole thing?

Exactly right.

Um, I see that Davina, So, Davina McCall is my favorite.

And when I was living in Northern Ireland 15 plus years ago, I started,

you know, doing her fitness DVDs and

Oh my God, they're amazing -yeah!

Vikki.

I own every single one of them, and they're upstairs in my living room.

Do you know what I think I've still got, like, I'll, I'll

take the dust off it, but I remember there was one with Hot Chip.

It was before I'd given birth, it was before I was pregnant, and

I remember Davina saying, "These leg kicks are worse than labour.

"They were like lunge kicks.

And I remember thinking "My God, if labour's worse than

this, I wanna go through it!"

Oh my gosh, yes.

Oh, anyways, But so Davina's talking a lot about menopause,

which is, which is nice, right?

Like it's all these experiences, right?

I think it's so important to, to talk about, and when you talk about

those hormone shifts and changes, um, now I know that those have a

massive impact on symptoms of ADHD.

And so is this a good time to kind of talk..?

Do you know what?

This is a beautiful segue.

You can tell that you are a podcaster because you have literally,

you're like, I'm over here.

We're on a tangent.

We're talking about, you know, leg kicks.

I'm just gonna segue over here and and bring us back on topic.

Sorry I don't mean to like ... I wanna let you...

No, it's beautiful.

You can totally take over the driving because you're so much

better versed in it than I am.

And, you've beautifully brought it into it.

And what I'd love to know is, first of all, what prompted you

to seek a diagnosis for your son?

Like how was that presenting itself?

It's so interesting because like I said, I would always

say, "Oh my son's so much like me.

He's so much like me, like in every way."

And then I remember we went to an open house at the elementary

school for, you know, kindergarten.

So he was like three ish, like just three.

And so they had tables set up like with things to do for the kids, like cutting

and writing their name and da, da da.

My son was the only kid that did not do any of the activities.

He had never put pen to paper at home.

Like he never wrote his name at home or anything like that.

Um, he just walked around the class and looked around

and, you know, "what's this?"

And "what's that?"

You know?

So I was like, "Okay, there's something different here."

Like, not in a bad way, but just, "okay, interesting".

So two years later, when he was in first grade, um, his teacher,

you know, said, "uh, it might be a good idea to get him tested".

So I said, "Okay."

So we got him tested, and then again, when, you know, you're going through

all the questionnaires, um, they ask about the parents like, about

kind of your past and your schooling and how did you do in school?

And I'm like, "Oh, not very good , um, when I was younger" and, and so, but

it's, it's different to because biological males and biological females do present

differently, very differently in ADHD.

And so I do have hyperactive, I'm hyperactive, impulsive type.

And if you know me, that makes a lot of sense.

Um, ,hence the like, not able to stop talking!

But you know, as a girl, I wasn't like jumping off of desks and, you know,

throwing chairs in the class or whatever.

Yeah.

When you hear about ADHD, you, you think about boys being really

boisterous, disruptive, bricks through windows, that sort of thing.

Absolutely.

And that's like the biggest stereotype.

It can be one facet.

I mean, my two sons who have ADHD have never put, you know, a brick

through a window or like, they're very extremely active and don't

stop until they fall asleep.

Absolutely.

Um, but in school they've been able to manage their behavior.

Like they're not bouncing off walls.

They're not- Yes they roam around class, like walking around and getting up kind

of even in the middle of the teacher talking, however, they're not like

throwing chairs or, you know, things like that, which is just interesting.

Right?

At that time I was in college- I was back in college, uh, doing my social

service worker diploma, um, to go into mental health and addictions

work and become a counsellor.

So I was really then kind of learning more about it and, okay, this is

interesting and thinking about it for myself and what this means for me.

And I was like, "yeah, that makes a lot of sense."

And I still have all my old report cards from school.

So I pulled them out and I looked through them 'cause the psychiatrist said, you

know, "if you look at your report cards and they all say like, you talk too much

or you know, your grades weren't great or whatever, he's like, chances are because

your son has it, you probably have it."

Okay.

So I go look through all my report cards: "Christine just

needs to focus and try harder.

Christine talks too much.

Christine interrupts her peers."

Um.

So that was my life.

And looking back, I remember I loved school, I love learning, I love reading.

And I would try so hard and never like reach my potential so to speak,

and always feeling like I'm missing the mark, I'm missing this something.

There's something I don't understand, something I don't catch.

Always kind of feeling like there's some like basics in life that I don't get.

And so before knowing about ADHD, I was like, "I think I'm dumb."

And I do not like saying that, I don't like saying that, but sometimes

I would say that to myself, like, "I think I'm just not smart."

But now I know like, ADHD has nothing to do with your intelligence and

actually I am really intelligent.

it's just how my brain works and yeah, I miss out on some social cues or

there's some social constructs that I don't understand or I don't abide by

'cause I don't agree with them . Like letting a podcast host, you know, ask

their own questions on their podcast!

Oh my God.

No, please stop apologizing.

My God, you did me a massive favour.

'Cause I was just thinking how am I gonna bring it round to this?

And then you did it so beautifully and eloquently and

you were like hormones, ADHD.

But this is absolutely fascinating to me, and I mean certainly I think

there was some sort of neuro divergent awareness week 'cause there's been

a lot of press about, the benefits.

And I know LinkedIn they've done a collaboration with, I think

Richard Branson was connected to it, where you now actually have

'Dyslexic Mind' as a quality that you put on your LinkedIn profile.

And I love that because, you know, my background is, is creative,

you know, television industry.

And we're constantly being told, you know, "think outside the box, be innovative"

and how can you be innovative if you have the same type of people with the same

type of experiences, with the same type of cultural and socioeconomic backgrounds?

You're always gonna come up with the same ideas.

And I know with colleagues and friends who are neuro divergent in,

you know, lots of different ways, they are brilliant because of that.

It is a quality that they have, you know, and that should be celebrated.

Nobody should be penalized for that or feel shame or guilt.

You know, everybody's wired differently.

When it comes to, you know, things like the spectrum, most of us are

somewhere on that spectrum, you know, and there's so much light or shade.

When it was suggested to you that you or your husband might have

ADHD, was it presented to you in the form of like a checklist, a

test, like the Edinburgh Survey?

No, it was really just the psychiatrist saying, Well,

if your kid has it, one of you has it.

So figure out who has it.

And then that's the problem with our system is finding support for

adults with ADHD is, like impossible.

And there's no supports that, I mean, you can see it.

So we have our healthcare system, which is similar to the nhs, um,

where our healthcare like is paid for.

And so you can see a psychiatrist to diagnose you.

However, the wait list for me, it took over a year, you know,

and which is typical right?

For healthcare systems such as ours.

But you can pay someone privately, you know, a thousand dollars to,

to do an assessment and all that.

But at the time I thought to myself "Well, I'm studying to be a counsellor

so I can just figure this out and I can like teach myself and my son coping

skills, um, because that's what I'm gonna do for a living and it'll be fine".

It wasn't fine.

The other thing too that I will say is that, at that time, interestingly

enough, I was on my SSRI for my anxiety.

I also didn't know that, I would say, the majority of people, I've read

stats of 40% of people, 60% of people with ADHD have a comorbid diagnosis

of generalized anxiety disorder.

What does comorbid mean, for us ley people?

Yeah.

So

comorbid

yeah, so comorbid is just like alongside.

So, uh, it just means, you know, you have ADHD and then you have anxiety,

so they're alongside each other.

So a, a comorbid diagnosis, you have two diagnoses.

And so, um, looking back again, I can certainly see that I think

anxiety was present my whole life.

I just wasn't aware of it.

Right.

And both of my sons also have generalized anxiety disorder

with their diagnosis of ADHD.

So I was in school at the time, and then I was really focusing my,

work and my training on addictions.

It just became my passion at that time.

And I, I, you know, studied in that and I worked in that.

And so I developed a bias about ADHD medication.

And I will say that now I understand that that bias was incorrect.

It was influenced by what I was seeing in my everyday work where I would have

a lot of people, and especially like I did, you know, to be gendered, I did

have a lot of male presenting clients come in and say they were diagnosed

with ADHD at a young age, and then they took the medication, it didn't work

for them or, but then they were all using like hard drugs, like cocaine,

methamphetamines, things like that.

So then I developed this fear that if my son took medication,

he would develop this addiction.

And so, kind of like a negative side of ADHD is like, you get turned off of

things very easily, which, you know, some people might call boredom, right?

But it's like if I don't agree with something or I don't understand something,

I just kind of put it out of my mind.

And I don't really think any further of it.

And so I just shut the idea down.

And so I thought "I'm not gonna bother getting a diagnosis

'cause I don't want medication.

I'll just deal with it.

It's fine.

What do I need it for?"

And I didn't put my son on medication either.

I was adamant.

And interestingly enough when the psychiatrist, you know,

he got his diagnosis and then asked like, "Okay, you know, I

recommend medication for your son."

And I said, "No, we're not doing that."

And he's like, "Okay, well I'll see you never".

And that was it.

Like we didn't get any other supports.

He was not referred to counselling.

Um, there was no like counselling covered by our healthcare system.

So if he wasn't taking medication, he wasn't being followed by anyone.

And so then I was left as a parent with ADHD to figure out how to

help my son and like what to do.

So I did get him into a program for anxiety and it was like a group with other

kids and they learned skills and stuff, which we still use those skills today.

It was amazing.

It was so wonderful.

And I think that really helped him with like managing his anger.

So again, as a girl, I look back and I see like where anger came out

for me and like sometimes rage too.

Um, But a boy with testosterone, that's biologically different, right?

So he would, you know, get upset, like someone hurt his feelings and he

would slam the front door or, um, be like, so much more physical, right?

So I was like, "buddy, like we can't, we're not doing that.

Like, we gotta figure out how to manage, right?"

So even just honestly deep breathing, like taking moments, like he really latched

onto those skills and still uses them now.

And I was nervous.

Like one day he's gonna be a teenager and now he's a 14 year old and he's

not, my kids are not throwing their Xbox remotes or like punching walls.

Like that's not a thing in my house.

So I'm very, very happy about that.

And also how brilliant to have like the tools to self medicate, you

know, rather than, and that, that's not to say there's anything wrong

with medication, but, um, I mean, I know very, very little about ADHD

and I'm fascinated to learn more.

But I do know my brother had a friend who was a girl I think

she had adhd and this is like back in rural Scotland in the 1980s.

So there was like really lack of understanding.

I mean, it was hard enough for me being a vegetarian in the 1980s, let alone

know having you know, neuro divergence.

And I remember she was given Ritalin, I think, and that

just turned her into a zombie.

It was really bad.

Yes.

And that's the thing, right, is like hearing those stories.

Like those are the stories we hear.

Those are the stories I knew of.

And then starting to work with people who were addicted to stimulants, like

illegal stimulants and they have ADHD.

So I just put this like idea in my head "if they go on

medication, this is what happens".

And so I didn't do my research.

I just impulsively said, "No, that's it".

Shutting it down.

And so my son, like as he progressed, fell very far behind in school.

He was at least two grades behind.

Um, and that was a struggle for me.

Like, that was really hard for me to reconcile 'cause also I can't sit

down and do homework with my kids.

It's really, really hard for me to do that.

And so I felt like I'm a failure.

I'm not helping my son.

I should be like homeschooling him, you know, to get him to where he needs to be.

And like, I just, I can't do that.

And so then I started researching about medication.

I started actually sitting down and reading.

And then what I learned from the literature is unmedicated ADHD is what

can lead to addiction because right, because our brains are just, everyone's

brains are, are seeking dopamine.

But ours is kind of like turbocharged really, cuz our

dopamine levels are low, right?

So we're seeking that, like whether it's food or sex or, um, you know,

drugs or whatever that is, physical alcohol, physical activity, you know,

we're seeking that dopamine hit, right?

And so if you take medication that helps with your dopamine production,

which then helps with focus and concentration and organization and all

those wonderful things and so the more I learned, I thought, okay, "I think

we need to talk about medication".

So during the pandemic- my youngest was in second grade when the pandemic

started -so my youngest and my oldest did no schoolwork for six months.

Six months!

Because it was like school was shut and it was like, " do it at home."

It wasn't like led by the teacher online.

I was going to ask you how you found homeschooling.

that must have been impossible.

Torture.

Well, I tried it for a week.

I made this big chart and I was like, "We are gonna stay on track.

It's gonna be amazing."

Nope, the chart was in the garbage within a week, and.

Do you know what so many parents are gonna be going like?

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean like literally the first day where you're like "We're gonna

do this, we're gonna do a bit of English, then we're gonna do that,

and then it's physical exercise.

We're gonna do yoga with Adrienne on YouTube..."

and yeah, same here- lasted about 2 days!

Yeah, absolutely.

And I was like, okay.

And then the second year, you know, of course like they're a bit behind but

then they were back online but it was like teacher-led homeschooling, like,

you know, kind of like Zoom, right?

And uh, my youngest couldn't sit in the seat, couldn't sit still.

Like I noticed his classroom behaviors, like of walking around, wandering around.

So I was working from home, like with my private practice and so I was downstairs

in a session and then the sessions finish.

I come upstairs and my son is on the couch watching TV and he has drawn a massive

picture of Baby Yoda, like he coloured in this colouring photo, taped it to

his chair in front of his classroom, and he let Baby Yoda be in class for

him because he was not having it!

Do you know what?

But that to me is thinking outside the box.

Absolutely.

I love the creativity there!

I love it!

He hung it up in his room, on his wall.

I was like, This is amazing.

I took a picture, I put it all over Facebook.

I loved it.

Amazing.

I couldn't, I could not get mad at him for that.

So, um, so then I was starting to think, okay, he's also behind in his

reading, in, you know, his schoolwork.

Then at that point, my son, my oldest had like two years before high school, so

I thought we've gotta do something here.

And I attended a talk for parents with kids with ADHD and then

one of the psychiatrists was talking about parents with ADHD.

She was saying that executive functioning is 100% inheritable.

Our executive functioning 100% comes from our parents, and that's all

these functions in the front of the brain that are impaired by ADHD.

And so I was like, "Oh!"

and she said "The best thing to do for your kids is to get your own diagnosis

and your own treatment plan, because how are you supposed to help your kids if

your symptoms are not under control?"

Right?

I went to my doctor probably a couple days later and got the

referral in and I thought, "Okay, I wanna try medication for this".

And then I was like, frantic, because you're telling someone with ADHD they

have to wait a year for an assessment!

Yeah- that's very counterintuitive!

Yes, it was absolute torture, Vikki!

Um, so my youngest got his diagnosis.

We got my oldest re-evaluated, got them both started on medication.

And then what I learned through my research was those instances

of people being like zombies on medication, it's because the

medication wasn't right for them.

The dose was too high or the brand was not right.

Right?

Like we know with any type of mental health, medication, it's, it's

such a trial and error process.

I've been on like three or four different medications for my anxiety, because

some don't agree with us, or maybe they work for a while and then they

kind of lose their efficacy, right?

So it's a challenge and that's why I think people struggle a

lot with medication compliance.

Um, they're like, "Oh, I feel great, I'll just go off my meds."

Right?

And then like myself, I did it right and it was not great.

So, anyways, fast forward I got my diagnosis finally, which is

only last year, Last April, Yes.

And started medication thereafter, and it's been life changing.

So I'm able to actually do the things on my to-do list.

So I have a big giant whiteboard in the middle of my main floor,

so I can see it from anywhere.

And so I have to look at it like probably a hundred times a day.

Right.

Like, what's next?

Before the medication it'd be like, I would put, let's say I, I try

not to put more than three things.

So if you're listening and you have ADHD, do not put more than

three things on your to-do list.

You can have your long to-do list of everything you need done- 'cause if we

have ADHD, you have a hundred to-do lists- um, but I definitely don't put more than

three things on my list for the day.

But what was happening was I put my three things and then it's the same

three things on the whiteboard every day because I don't do it ,right?

Or I'll say, "Okay, today I'm getting caught up on my case notes or I'm gonna

vacuum the house" or, you know, whatever.

And then it just, something better comes along.

Right?

So I started taking medication and then all of a sudden I was checking

off the things on the to-do list and my husband would get home and I'm like,

"Babe, I vacuumed the house, or like I did the dishes" and he's like, "Wow!"

Like not in a sarcastic way.

You know after let's say the first week, he was like, "Yeah, I really

noticed that you're doing more."

So it's definitely been helpful.

It's been helpful for my children.

They are able to focus and concentrate in class.

They are no different personality wise.

I am no different personality wise, I still feel all of my emotions.

Um, so do my children and you know, we've had to make tweaks here and

there, um, to the dosage level.

A big complaint is like not being hungry, like kids not eating a lot.

And my youngest could do with some bulking up a little bit.

So they were kind of worried 'cause he did lose a bit of weight at first.

So it was just kind of playing around with the dosage.

But after a couple weeks he got used to it and it was fine.

So again, if you're concerned about that as a parent or for yourself

it's a symptom, it's a side effect.

You do get used to it, it does go away.

And if it doesn't go away, that's just a sign to reassess your medication.

It could be like going down in your dose or it actually

could be going up in your dose.

Obviously you work with your doctor on that.

So that was eye opening.

And then I had mum guilt -that came in and said, "You should have put your

son on meds from day one, and then maybe he wouldn't be so behind and now

he's in high school and he's behind".

Whereas now I am seeing my youngest is catching up and he's coming more

to his grade level much sooner.

So yeah, that's kind of that story with medication there.

But it's absolutely fascinating.

I don't know if, you've listened to the episode with Mark Williams- I think it's

split across two actually, 'Daddy Blues'- and Mark is such an amazing guy, but

he had a very late diagnosis of ADHD.

And again, he said it was life changing, that validation- "so that is why I

kept getting labelled as the bad kid at school or the disruptive kid at school,

or not reaching my potential, you know, that's why I would get distracted and muck

around, you know, because of the ADHD."

and that's how it manifested itself in him.

The only thing I could compare it to, I guess, is when Liz or somebody said to

me, You have postnatal depression and the illness is why you feel X, Y, and Z.

You know, that is a classic symptom, and suddenly you feel you can

take some of that self- blame off.

You know, that feeling of like, " I'm dumb, I'm stupid",

or, why can't I get it right?"

And actually it validates you and validates your experience.

Would you say?

Absolutely.

When you can put language to it, you know, language is what we use

to make sense of our lives and our world and the people around us.

So when we can put language to our symptoms, for example, "Oh, I'm not a

bad mum, I don't actually hate my kids.

It's just these intrusive thoughts that I get because of postpartum

depression or postpartum anxiety."

And so it's like, "that wasn't Christine that like resented

her boys for being in the way.

That was the symptoms, that was the illness."

And so absolutely the same thing with ADHD where I can look back and go,

"Oh, that makes so much sense, right?

Like I'm not dumb.

And yes, I sometimes don't pick up on social cues or those social

constructs that don't make sense to me or that's why I interrupt - it's

like, 'cause I'm excited".

Or it's not 'cause I'm a jerk.

It's like I don't wanna be mean, I'm just like so excited.

Right?

And then also we can then say that's the reason for the way I behave or the things

that I do or the struggles that I have.

Not an excuse, right?

But now I can say, "and what do I need to manage those symptoms?

How do I take care of myself so that I can show up as best as I

can for my kids, or for myself or for my work, for my partner."

Now I can figure it out instead of just spinning my wheels and thinking

like, "just try harder, Christine!"

You know, then I try harder, but it doesn't work.

So then I just, I'm in this shame spiral!

Interestingly enough, Mark Williams, he talks about as well

his experience with postpartum depression, as a dad, which I love.

Mark if you're listening I would still love to have you on my podcast...

But also interesting then too to see those intersections of ADHD and, for

example, post-partum depression or postpartum anxiety, and that I definitely

see how it impacted my symptoms.

So, especially in biological females, we have hormone fluctuations week to week.

Which is hard.

Right?

And so I didn't know this until like last year, but some women actually have

a different dosage for their medication in the first half of their cycle

and the second half of their cycle.

Wow!

That's fascinating.

Yes, I know.

Um, because again, those low oestrogen levels, really impact our symptoms.

Right.

So then I would tend to then be more, um, definitely more anxious.

Um, I notice the focus and concentration is just not there.

You know, just really struggling to put things together, execute a plan,

or get things done in the house.

And I now know that that low oestrogen is impacting my functioning, my

actual executive functioning.

And then also with adhd, for most of us, again, just like

autism, it's a spectrum, right?

I think that's also the hard part is that every single person presents differently.

But for me, um, I feel my emotions in really big ways.

I have big emotions and like, I love hard and I hurt really hard.

We know too, like even for people without ADHD, we can be more

emotionally sensitive, you know, in those certain times, especially leading

up to our period post ovulation.

And so in ADHD that's also heightened.

So again, if, if you think about males who really, from like puberty to

death, Yes, their testosterone levels shift and change throughout the day

even, but it's not the same impact on their functioning as it is for us.

Whereas if you think our hormone levels shift week to week, you know,

our whole entire lives, and we're dealing with that internally and trying

to manage that like week to week, forever, you know, that's a big impact.

And I think that's a big intersection with ADHD that I've literally

never heard anyone talk about it except this one podcast where this

woman said her medication dosage is different throughout the month.

And I was like "oh my God!"

That's, incredible.

Well, even you just saying about oestrogen, makes me think is it a

depletion of oestrogen levels that makes menopausal brain fog, you know, and, I,

I was just gonna say, I'm absolutely fascinated in this subject and I'd love

to look into getting an endocrinologist on to talk about hormones so that I could

you know, just get my head around it all.

But also just things in terms of like anxiety, just generally.

I think people don't quite understand how that overthinking and that fear,

that sort of going into that panicked fight or flight mode can stop, you

know, if you are feeling the effects of postnatal anxiety or postnatal

depression, how just even things like washing up or getting out of bed, looking

after a kid, feeding, you know, the anxiety of like what to cook for dinner.

I know it sounds like a really purile thing, but just the

overthinking of like nutrition and am I getting the right thing...

and it can be exhausting.

And if you take somebody who you know actually was, good

at their job, got things done.

And then with the effects of that, even just keeping a house together or getting

out of the house feels like such an uphill struggle and it's exhausting.

Does that resonate at all?

Oh my gosh Vikki completely because...

and that's the thing where like ADHD symptoms and anxiety are so

similar, like you said, right?

When that anxiety comes in and we're in fight or flight mode, our

prefrontal cortex shuts down, right?

So the front of the brain shuts down because we're like, "I just need to

focus on staying alive", so even if the threat outside is not actual life

and death, our body doesn't know that.

Our body just thinks...

Perceived threat?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: Perceived threat, exactly.

And so it's shutting down those functions of like organising and you

know, executing tasks like cooking dinner, uh, doing the washing up.

That requires like, okay, I need to wash the dishes, then I need to dry them.

Then I need to put them away.

Again, it sounds simple to most people, but we take it for granted that that

uses our executive functioning When anxiety comes in, that is shut down

'cause we don't need to do the dishes, we just need to stay alive in that moment.

So then imagine if you go into that situation with ADHD where your

executive functioning is impaired.

It is impaired, it's an impairment and I see how that comes out of my life.

I also see how the way my brain functions, like I can get a lot of shit done in a

small amount of time that people around me don't do and I'm happy about that.

Right?

It works in great ways sometimes.

Um, and so if you think about too, even just going into parenthood

without postpartum depression or anxiety is overwhelming.

I was twenty five, twenty six when I gave birth to my first, So before that it

was like, yeah, I'm living my best life.

I can do whatever I want.

I can eat cereal for dinner.

Like, you know, Yeah.

And I can go to work and be a functioning human.

And then when you have a baby that is all executive functioning, I

need to like learn how to feed.

I need to like changing diapers or getting them to doctor's appointments,

booking the appointments, going to the appointment, like getting

prepared to go to the appointment.

That's all executive functioning.

Interacting in social situations, mum and baby groups.

I can tell you now, I was never in one single mum and baby group.

I attempted to do like a mum group on Facebook and I just couldn't cope.

Like it was just too much, like too many messages and too many people and

too many, you know, fears and concerns.

And I'm soaking all of this up.

I couldn't do it.

And for years I was like, what is wrong with me?

Like, am I missing like the mum gene?

Like I'm just not a good mum that I don't want to be like,

I have like two mum friends.

Like I know like two mums from my kid's school.

I'm not that mum that like knows all the mums in the school

or all the parents, right?

And that's okay.

That's fine

Yes, it is...

You don't have to be part of the PTA!

Right, Right, Right, except when like, people are

like, "Oh" -like not everyone reacts as nice as you, right- like simply like,

"Oh, like you, you don't do that?"

Like, "no, I don't!"

Anyways, so all of those things that are so overwhelming in parenting,

it's like times a hundred when you have ADHD . And so even when my kids

started school, I was so overwhelmed.

I had to pack their backpack and like, "We gotta put your

clothes out for the next day".

Even though I was taking them to daycare before that, from when they

were a year old, it felt like the transition felt so hard for me.

And transitions are hard for people with ADHD- now I know.

And the panic and the fear and the paralisation.

When you're like, "Oh my gosh, what does he need in his backpack?

What do I put in his lunch?

What do I do?"

And then God forbid if in the morning he's taking too long to get dressed

or, you know, the, the panic, right?

Every morning.

Like every morning.

And so that's where parenting and ADHD, like, I see, it's, it's so

hard to cope and like, I just don't think we talk about it enough.

And because of that, people don't get it.

People don't understand, like, so that fear and that overwhelm you get

when you have a baby and you know, you're like, Oh my gosh, what do I do?

And then eventually that goes away.

That kind of stays with me, right?

So yes, there's like a lot of places where I'm ' chill' and I'm like, "We're cool.

We got this.

It's all good."

When my kids are sick, I don't know, I'm just like, "It's okay.

We'll figure it out."

In other circumstances I'm not chill.

And I think that'll be there forever.

So I just think there's a lot of intersections with ADHD, mental

health, perinatal mental health and parenting that are so hard.

I will say this Vikki that cooking and worrying about dinner

for so many years was torture.

And again, before ADHD I was like, "what is wrong with me?

Like what is the big deal?

" Look at your friends, they cook like elaborate meals and they cook

proper food every day for their kids.

Like why can't you do that?!"

And finally, like in the last year, my husband - he does a lot, he's amazing.

And, and so he cooks a lot- and so I said, " Can we make an agreement

that you're in charge of dinner and I'm just taking it out of my mind?"

And he was like, "Okay".

And so now it's like officially everyone in the house knows that don't ask me

what's for dinner, cuz I don't know.

And I will eat whatever's in front of me, it's fine, but that actually

cleared up so much brain space for me.

Yeah - mental load.

Yes!

The mental load and took off so much stress off my plate.

And again, it's like cooking, right?

It's like, what's the big deal?

For me it ruins my whole day.

I'm thinking when I have a client at 9:00 AM you know, I'm in session.

I'm like, "Oh shit, what am I gonna make for dinner?

Oh, I didn't take the chicken out.

Oh, now we can't have chicken.

Now I have to pivot.

And like, well what do I have that's thought out?"

or ...arggggh Vikki!

Oh my God, I'm, I'm nodding furiously again and especially 'cause I'm

gonna have to pick Stanley up in like 15 minutes from football camp.

One of his best mates is coming back who's um, got really unusual tastes

and I'm now feeling the sinking feeling of like, what am I going to feed them?

This boy is such a lovely boy, but he'll, eat things like swordfish and

spaghetti carbonara and stuff, but like, chips, baked potatoes, sandwiches, bread?

No!

He has a very fancy palate!

The first time he came back for a play date and it was

like, "what do you like to eat?"

And he was like, "Meat and sweets"!

Now I'm vegetarian for a start, so...

! Oh no it's like, yeah!

Oh my God, I'd love to have you back.

And I was gonna say, if anybody's listening and the whole thing about

ADHD, whether it's parenting a child with ADHD or being a parent with

ADHD, if this is resonating with you, please do get in touch with me, via

'Blue MumDays@ gmail.com', because I'd love to have you back for maybe

a Q and A or something like that?

I think that would be so cool.

And, um, thank you so much for, for educating me on this because I had

no idea and I , you know, I really think so much resonates with me,

of like what you've been saying.

A lot of it really has sunk in.

So thank you so much for being a great guest.

can people get in touch with you?

Um, so you can get in touch with me on Instagram.

So at Perinatal Wellbeing underscore Ontario.

You can also email me info@perinatalwellbeing.ca.

Perinatal wellbeing.ca is the website.

So that's all for my not-for-profit where, we try to provide like

low barrier, low cost services to people in the perinatal period

living with mental health struggles.

I love connecting with people.

If anyone has questions about my story or their story, like I'm so

open, like please get in touch.

And Vikki, thank you so much for opening this discussion here because

I do believe it's so important.

And I would come back every week if you wanted me to

because I love talking with you.

I actually discovered you, Christine, through your podcast, which I

just think is the most incredible listen.

How can people listen to you?

What's your podcast called?

Yes.

My gosh.

Thank you for reminding me um, so it's called Perinatal Wellbeing, and I, I use

those terms because I wanna cover- this is my goal- I wanna cover everything.

Like let's talk about every topic, you know, possible related to perinatal.

Um, so we do have a lot of discussion around mental health, um, you know,

mental health challenges and struggles, um, and, you know, different experiences,

loss, um, also talking about postpartum sexuality coming up soon, talking

about things like the pressures of sleep training and, and kind of

what that's looking like right now.

That's a big thing right now in this space.

Um, so yeah, just, just all different topics like that and

really at the heart of it, having people share their stories, right?

Like you and, um, you know, those real authentic stories.

So we can hear that and say, "Yeah, me too.

Oh my gosh.

Like, I think I remember thinking that too, and I thought I was a bad mum and.

Okay.

Well maybe if it's a symptom, maybe I'm not a bad mum.

Maybe it, it is just a symptom.

Right.

Someone else experienced it too."

Hmm.

so

Yeah.

And, and that's why it is so important to, to share our stories and, and normalize

the conversation around it, that it's okay to have these feelings, especially the the

frightening ones, like intrusive thoughts.

Thank you so much., You've been such a fabulous guest.

Thank you, Christine.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: Thank you so much Vikki.

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