Know Your Ships - Boat Nerds Unite! With Roger LeLievre
Episode 1378th December 2023 • Total Michigan • Cliff Duvernois
00:00:00 00:25:59

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Roger LeLievre is the owner, publisher, and editor of "Know Your Ships" which is now in it's 65th publication. They discuss Roger's passion for ships and the shipping industry, how he inherited the responsibility of publishing the Guide from its original author, Tom Mance, as well as his mission to keep the maritime enthusiasm alive among a younger generation. The conversation includes stories of interesting vessels and anecdotes, depicting Roger's path from being a boat nerd to a recognized figure in the maritime industry. Roger also details his efforts to keep the "Know Your Ships" Guide relevant and engaging.

Links:

https://knowyourships.com/

https://boatnerd.com/

Get these excellent episodes delivered straight to your inbox at https://totalmichigan.com/join/

Transcripts

Roger LeLievre:

Ships have a history just like anybody else does.

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:

People are curious when

they see them floating by.

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:

Where are they coming from?

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Where are they going?

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It's a little world

going by you out there.

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And all those people on those boats and

on the shore that make those boats go.

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They all have stories.

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And the story of the ship is

important, but the stories of the

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people are twice as important.

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Cliff Duvernois: Hello everyone, and

welcome back to Total Michigan, where

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we interview ordinary Michiganders

doing some pretty extraordinary things.

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I am your host, Cliff Duvenois.

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And once again, I'm up in God's

country, up here in Sault Ste.

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Marie.

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And one of the things that I've

discovered is, in my adventures

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running around Sault Ste.

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Marie and capturing some really

great stories up here, every place

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I go seems to have this one book.

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And when I asked some people

about it, they were like,

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obviously you are not a boat nerd.

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Which I didn't even know was a thing,

but apparently it is a huge thing.

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And there's people who just love this.

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And I sought out the author and

he's kind enough to give us some

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time today to talk about his book.

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And you probably have heard this

before, but it's called Know Your Ships.

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So with that being said, ladies and

gentlemen, please welcome to the show.

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Roger LeLever.

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How are you?

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Roger LeLievre: am absolutely great.

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Thank you.

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Cliff Duvernois: Roger,

where are you from?

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Where did you grow up?

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Roger LeLievre: I'm I'm Sault Ste.

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Marie, Michigan.

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I grew up here, went to college

here, for my first year.

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I spent my summers with my grandparents

in this very cottage that we are

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sitting and talking to you today

on the banks of the beautiful St.

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Mary's River.

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Cliff Duvernois: And talking

to you today you go to college?

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Roger LeLievre: I went to

Central Michigan university.

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Where did you study?

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Journalism.

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I got a degree in journalism in 1977.

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And went on to work at the Ann Arbor

News and I spent thirty years there.

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Cliff Duvernois: I What made

you want to get into journalism?

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Roger LeLievre: I think it's in my blood.

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I, during those tests that they have

when they check out to see what should

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be, what should be when you grow up.

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Yeah, you know those things.

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I scored really high in language

in the arts and really dismally in

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anything to do with science or math.

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So that was pretty clear.

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one of my favorite toys growing up was

a little, uh, toy printing press where

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you had little pieces of rubber type.

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And you set them and

made it cranked a little.

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There was such a thing and I loved it.

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I loved it.

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I took some printing classes in college.

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I took some in high school.

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And when I was still in high

school, I actually started

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working for the Sault Ste.

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Marie paper as, as what we

called it back then, a stringer.

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So I would cover some of the high school

events with pictures and photographs.

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Yeah, and in high school

I was the yearbook nerd.

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Photographer for the yearbook.

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We had a beautiful darkroom,

which was also my locker, my

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lunchroom, my hangout place.

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So, definitely, definitely

in the nerddom thing there.

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So, boat nerd, high school yearbook nerd.

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Cliff Duvernois: Well ok so that

leads to the next question is

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how did you become a boat nerd?

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Roger LeLievre: Now, therein lies a tale.

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Cliff Duvernois: Ooh, good.

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Roger LeLievre: I love to say to people,

I'm just a boat nerd like you guys.

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I'm just the luckiest one, the

luckiest boat nerd in the world.

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Right.

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And I can tell you how that came about.

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And it's really my life story

and how things interacted.

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Courses my life took over the years When

I was a little kid, like five or six

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years old, it was Father's day coming up.

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And my grandfather worked on the

coal docks here on the river, putting

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coal on the freighters for fuel.

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What if we get gramp for Father's day?

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And we thought, maybe we'll get

him some pictures of some of

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the boats to put on the walls.

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And my mother knew about

this guy in Sault Ste.

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Marie, whose name was Tom Mance.

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And he was a photographer.

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And he sold pictures of boats.

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And he published a book

called Know Your Ships.

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So my mom called him up.

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And we went to his house and

sat around the kitchen table.

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And he was pulling out these boxes of

photos that he had developed himself

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in his own darkroom in the basement.

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How cool is that?

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I was hooked.

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I, clearly I was six

years old maybe, seven.

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and he sensed my interest.

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And so we got the pictures

from my grandfather.

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And Tom and I became friends.

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He taught me how to take pictures.

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He taught me how to develop

them in the darkroom.

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How to file the pictures.

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He got me a job first of all in high

school as a tour guide on this museum

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freighter we have here in Sault Ste.

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Marie called the Valley Camp.

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That he ran in addition to his book.

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And then he got me a job on the

freighters the summer I turned 18.

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What'd you do on the freighters?

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I worked for a freighter owned

by the Ford Motor Company.

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And we carried eight passengers

on, on board the ships.

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They were guests of the

company, big wigs, executives.

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And, you know, Ford with his vertical

integration wanted to own everything.

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Yes.

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And he owned a fleet of ships to

bring his raw materials into Detroit.

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Cliff Duvernois: Oh my

goodness, I never knew that.

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Roger LeLievre: I worked on

that ship for the summer.

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I was called a passenger porter.

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Because we carried those

passengers, those guests.

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So, I was kind of like the galley slave.

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Really?

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I carried, really, I carried all their

luggage up from down on the dock.

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I made their beds.

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I scrubbed their bathtubs.

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I made sure there was enough ice at night

for all their many, many, many cocktails.

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So this is like a cruise ship.

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It was like, for them,

it was a cruise ship.

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For me, it was work.

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Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

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so I did work on the freighters.

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And I, it was good, because I

wanted to know if I liked it,

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because I thought I might make a

career out of that kind of thing.

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But I was also interested

in journalism as well.

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So I spent that summer on the freighter.

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And I liked it.

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But it didn't hook me.

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The way I thought it might.

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It just didn't hook me.

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I was promised a job back the

next season, if I wanted it.

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So, I got off.

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And I'm going to college and I'm

working a little bit for the Sault Ste.

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Marie paper.

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And the editor, a fatherly fellow

with the long, long mane of hair that

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looks like an editor should look,

put his arm around on my shoulder and

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says, Roger, I got a deal for you.

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If you don't go back on the boats next

year, I'll guarantee you a job all

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through college, all your vacations,

all your breaks, your internship.

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If you'll just not go back on the boats.

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how can I turn that down, right?

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You know, I left the lakes.

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However, the lakes never really left me.

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Ooh, you were hooked.

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You know, I was hooked, you know.

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I grew up taking pictures of

the boats out here on the St.

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Mary's River from my little boat and

reading about the lakes and all that.

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And here I am in journalism school.

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And I'm figuring out ways about how

I can write stories about boats.

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Yes.

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Some of my high school term papers

or whatever were about boats.

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The impact of winter

navigation on the Great lakes.

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Uh.

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I go away to, to Central.

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And I'm the student

professional photographer

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there for information services.

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So I cover all the football

games and all that stuff.

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Guess what that gets me?

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A beautiful darkroom.

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Yes.

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again, I'm continuing to foster

the interest in photography

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and hone my skills in that.

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Then I went to work for the Ann Arbor

News, which, you know, is a half hour

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from the Detroit River or a little more.

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And I spent quite a bit of time

convincing my editors that there was

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a story going on over in Detroit about

boats that they should write about.

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So I got sent to Detroit to cover

Jacques Cousteau when he was in town.

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What?

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With his Calypso going down

to the Edmund Fitzgerald.

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I went over to Dawson Great Lakes Museum.

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I did a story about the museum.

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I did anything.

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Passenger ships coming

back to the Great Lakes.

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I wrote about all that kind of stuff.

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I couldn't get away from the ships.

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I couldn't work on the ships.

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But I could sure write about the ships.

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And I did it as much as I could.

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Um, so, I spent a lot of time in

my working years at the Ann Arbor

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News conniving ways to put together

enough vacation time, comp time,

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holiday time, weekend time, to

get enough cobbled together so I

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could come up here to Sault Ste.

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Marie to spend some

time or, or chase boats.

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Uh, Someplace else on the Great

Lakes over down to the Welland

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Canal, up to Duluth, over to

Wisconsin, just, that's what I did.

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It worked.

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Cliff Duvernois: It's not that

you're just writing about a boat.

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but you're focused on the

story that goes with it.

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Where did you think

about marrying those two?

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Roger LeLievre: Right from the beginning.

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When I was still at Central and getting

my journalism and photography degrees,

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I was stringing for the Saginaw News,

the Bay City Times, and a publication

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called the Upper Peninsula Sunday Times.

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And I was trying to figure out what I

could write about, the stories I could

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tell that would make people who read

those newspapers and those editors making

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those decisions, to want to buy those

stories from me as a freelance writer.

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And you have to come at that, that

kind of story with the approach

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of what makes this interesting?

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Why is this more than

just a hunk of steel?

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And you get into their story

and they have personalities.

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Ships have a history just

like anybody else does.

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People are curious when

they see them floating by.

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Where are they coming from?

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Where are they going?

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What are they carrying?

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They're so quiet when they go by.

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Who's on there?

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Those are the kinds of questions

I kind of like to try and ask.

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Or answer.

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It's a little world

going by you out there.

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And all those people on those boats and

on the shore that make those boats go.

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They all have stories.

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And the story of the ship is

important, but the stories of the

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people are twice as important.

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And that's what I try to marry together

then and now and all the stuff that I

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do with Know Your Ships and the stories

I put in there is people want to know

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the answers to some of these questions.

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what, what's up with all those boats

going by that are painted bright yellow?

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Well, that's a fleet of ships from

the Netherlands that's carrying

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windmill parts into the Great Lakes.

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They're, They're, yellow and all

their names start with happy.

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Happy Ranger, Happy Rover, Happy River.

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Now see, you wouldn't know that

if you saw that boat go by.

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But, somebody told me.

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I was able to figure it out and

put it together and that turned

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into a story in Know Your Ships.

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And now people know, as Paul Harvey

used to say when I was a kid, and

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now you know the rest of the story.

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And I was hooked on

Paul Harvey, by the way.

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Yeah,

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Cliff Duvernois: Still I find his stuff

on YouTube all the time and listen to it.

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Roger LeLievre: He did a

marvelous job of of storytelling.

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Yes.

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Very influential person he is.

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Cliff Duvernois: for our audience,

we're going to take a quick break and

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thank our sponsors when we come back.

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We're going to talk about how Roger

got involved with Know Your Ships

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and how he's absolutely been able

to take it to a whole new level.

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We'll see you after the break.

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Hello everyone and welcome back to

Total Michigan where we interview

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ordinary Michiganders doing some

pretty extraordinary things.

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I'm your host Cliff DuVernois.

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We're continuing our conversation with

the I guess I'd say the king of the board

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nerds and that would be Roger LeLievre.

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Roger, mentioned before about

Tom Mance and about how he

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actually started Know Your Ships.

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Now, how did you get connected with him

and start working with him on the Know

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Your Ships books that are coming out?

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Roger LeLievre: that's

an interesting question.

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Here's the thing is, none of this

would be here today without Tom Mance.

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And he was a guy who worked as a

machinist at the power plant, the

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big hydro plant here in Sault Ste.

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Marie.

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And where his office was, or

his shop, looked right over the

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boats going by in Sault Harbor.

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And somewhere along the line he got

the idea that maybe a little guidebook

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or a little directory to the boats

would be something people would like.

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But he came out with this little

book called Know Your Ships.

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It was 44 pages, uh, in 1959.

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And he did all the work in his basement.

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He had a big drafting table down

there, and he had a darkroom,

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and had bunches of file cabinets.

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And he'd go down there.

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And he'd work at it.

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And he came up with this book.

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In 1959, the shopkeepers along

Portage Avenue there by the locks,

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they didn't see the value in that.

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They didn't think anybody

would want to buy that book.

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Tom would not be stopped.

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So he went out and he got some high

school and junior high school kids and

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gave him those old fashioned carpenter's

aprons with the pockets and some money

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in one pocket and the book in the other.

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And they sold them to the tourists

leaving the locks through the park gates.

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Well, the shopkeepers saw that and saw

all those books being sold and all of

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a sudden they were in those gift shops.

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Seeing is believing.

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Seeing is believing.

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And, Sault Ste.

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Marie is my number one outlet

today, which is not surprising.

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Number one area of sales.

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Tom could sell anything.

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He was a born salesman.

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He loved to get in his car and

drive someplace with books in

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his trunk and just, as he would

just say, sell, sell, sell.

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Took his family on vacations.

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Where did they go?

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They went where the boats

were so he could sell books.

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Sure.

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So I met Tom Mance when I

was about six years old.

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And my mom knew this

guy here in Sault Ste.

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Marie that sold boat pictures

and published this book

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about, about the boats.

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We wanted to buy my grandfather

some boat pictures for Father's day.

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So we went to his house

to look at pictures.

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He sat around the old kitchen table there.

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And he brought out these boxes

of photos from his darkroom.

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And I paged through them, and boy,

I tell you, I was really into it.

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I was really into it.

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I was into it before then.

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But something clicked,

really, with those pictures.

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Pretty soon I was on the phone.

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Mr.

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Mance, can I come over

tonight and make pictures?

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I'm sure he was absolutely delighted

to hear that, that call come in.

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I was under 12 in that period.

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So I'd wander over.

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He lived pretty close to us there.

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I go down in his basement.

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We shared his office and his

little darkroom and like his

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wife's washer and dryer and sink.

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You know back in the old days

you had to wash your film and

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your pictures of the chemicals.

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So we'd have to make sure his wife

wasn't gonna do a load of laundry

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because we needed the water water.

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So he so he taught me how to do all that.

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He'd pick me up and say hey, let's

go see what boats are coming.

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Pretty soon I was taking my own pictures.

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And he put a couple of them in his book.

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Cliff Duvernois: You must

have been very excited.

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Roger LeLievre: I was, I was very excited.

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I think I had my first picture in the

book in:

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I was real little.

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so I was just, I was taking

my own bull pictures.

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So Tom taught me those skills that

brought me forward into my later life.

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and helping him on Know Your

Ships, I think also triggered

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something, in me, because I did

pursue a career in journalism.

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So I would help him with Know Your

Ships over the years, you know,

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with photos and corrections and

design and all that kind of stuff.

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He, uh, got me a job on a

freighter when I was 18.

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So that was very helpful for me

to decide my future career path.

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Fast forward to 1994 at, Tom passed away.

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And before he did, he set things up

so that I could take over his company.

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And, uh, he, he didn't

charge me any money for it.

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He just gave it to me.

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That's incredible.

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Yep.

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He didn't have any idea I could do it.

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He had faith I could do it.

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And, you know, I was in

the newspaper business.

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I did have some of those skills.

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But it freaked me out because I really

felt some responsibility there that I

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had to carry this guy's word forward.

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Cliff Duvernois: Well just to put

this into context here, how long has

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he been doing the Know Your Ships?

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Roger LeLievre: it'll be our 65th year

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Cliff Duvernois: So then in 1994,

what he's probably 30 years into this.

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Roger LeLievre: Yeah, I think the 44th

or 45th edition was when he passed away.

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Cliff Duvernois: And at this point in

time cranking out these books every

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year, selling books every single year.

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Roger LeLievre: And working at the

newspaper until not too long ago.

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Cliff Duvernois: He's really built

up like a cult following, you know,

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around his books at that time.

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So I can imagine that's the

pressure on you to keep it at

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that, you know that high standard.

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Roger LeLievre: Well, and then also in

:

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we have now called the internet.

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Or a computer.

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I remember my first computer.

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I brought the book from a yellow lined

legal pad to a computer when Tom died.

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And if he could see how we do it

now, he would be flabbergasted.

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Cliff Duvernois: Yes.

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Yes.

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So when you took over the Know Your

Ships, what were some of the things

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that you had to keep in mind to make

sure that, that this brand would

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not only survive, but to thrive?

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Roger LeLievre: You know, I'm not even

sure I thought about that at that point.

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My main concern was that I'd be able

to just get the next year's book out.

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I didn't have any big future

vision for it at that point.

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Okay.

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I just, I just wanted to keep it going

'cause I thought it was important.

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I liked it.

397

:

I liked the boats.

398

:

I.

399

:

So I found somebody, a fellow

boat watcher, that was a little

400

:

more computer literate than I was.

401

:

And he put all the vessel listings

kind of into a spreadsheet

402

:

that I could use with the book.

403

:

And guess what?

404

:

I still use that same spreadsheet today.

405

:

I update it every year.

406

:

So thanks Phil Clayton for that.

407

:

that.

408

:

And his wife Angie.

409

:

There's boat nerds all over the place

that have been helping me all these years.

410

:

I could not do it without all these folks.

411

:

But as far as the actual

book goes, my mom helped me.

412

:

Believe it or not.

413

:

Really?

414

:

Yes.

415

:

Uh, when I got the book, I was

working full time in my career.

416

:

And this book got added in.

417

:

And there's a lot to do behind the

scenes that no one knows about.

418

:

One of the things that I do not do

well is financial part, bookkeeping.

419

:

And my mother was retired

as city clerk of Sault Ste.

420

:

Marie.

421

:

And she knew that stuff.

422

:

So she did the bookkeeping

for me for years.

423

:

And she also delivered books

for me in the Sault Ste.

424

:

Marie area.

425

:

Because I wasn't up here at the time.

426

:

Cliff Duvernois: Right.

427

:

Roger LeLievre: So she was a big part of

the business, unsung behind the scenes.

428

:

And that's, you know, I got better

at it, of course, as time went by.

429

:

And we had new technologies

that made it a whole lot easier.

430

:

But in 2008 my newspaper

career came to an end.

431

:

The Ann Arbor News was closed by

the company that owned it out of

432

:

New Jersey, Newhouse Newspapers.

433

:

So anyway, I'm now working

on Know Your Ships full time.

434

:

And I've got the internet

and I've got a car.

435

:

So I start going around the Great

Lakes and knocking on doors of

436

:

gift shops and what have you

saying, Hey, I got this book.

437

:

And we managed to build

up our sales that way.

438

:

Now we sell a lot of books, not only

through those bookstores and gift

439

:

shops, but also, Oh, I've got a bait

shop, a restaurant, a couple of motels.

440

:

Uh, you know, Any place that will

stick that book there where there's

441

:

freighters going by, it'll sell.

442

:

that it will sell.

443

:

Cliff Duvernois: Reminds me of the

interview that I did with Jonathan

444

:

Rand for his Michigan Chiller series.

445

:

He did the exact same thing.

446

:

You know, wherever he could

stick his book, he would.

447

:

You're talking about, you're

coming out with a new edition

448

:

of your book every single year.

449

:

Yes.

450

:

Why?

451

:

Roger LeLievre: Because

there are changes every year.

452

:

Like what kind of changes?

453

:

Well, within the shipping industry,

the part of the book that I like

454

:

to call the directory or the field

guide that tells all about the boats

455

:

and who built them and how big and

who owns them and all that stuff.

456

:

There's always changes going on.

457

:

Ships are scrapped out of the fleet.

458

:

New ships are built.

459

:

Ships are renamed.

460

:

So that's the kind of a scorecard.

461

:

If you're using the book as a boat

watcher and you're sitting in your,

462

:

in your chair on your deck and you're

looking out the river and you see...

463

:

See the, uh, Arthur M.

464

:

Anderson go by.

465

:

You can pick up my book

and find out all about it.

466

:

So that's a guidebook.

467

:

That's data.

468

:

Kind of pretty straightforward data.

469

:

But there's a lot more to the book.

470

:

And it's because of two things.

471

:

One is I felt I needed to

expand the book out more.

472

:

But the other, other reason

is there are fewer ships now.

473

:

you know, one of these days there

won't be a whole lot of, much

474

:

left of the listings, maybe.

475

:

So you got to figure out what

to fill that space up with.

476

:

What do you fill it up with?

477

:

People's stories.

478

:

Photos.

479

:

More pictures.

480

:

Photos that you, as a boat nerd, might

take somewhere and send in to me.

481

:

And I'm captured by it.

482

:

And I put it in the book.

483

:

There's a lot of that.

484

:

I get thousands of pictures every

year from around the Great Lakes from

485

:

people hoping to get in the book.

486

:

And that's the second component

to it that makes it all the more

487

:

interesting to people is that

stuff in the back, I call it.

488

:

Stuff in the Back.

489

:

The Spotlight section with the stories.

490

:

Uh, The section about how the locks work.

491

:

The maps.

492

:

Where all the ports are.

493

:

What all the, uh, whistle signals mean.

494

:

The smokestack markings.

495

:

They're all there.

496

:

Every, every fleet has a,

a stack with a logo on it.

497

:

We've reproduced those

in the book as well.

498

:

It's not only just the Great Lakes

but the saltwater fleets that come in.

499

:

We have people like to

see the older boats.

500

:

So we have a nice gallery of the

old timers in there, pictures

501

:

from years and years ago with

a little bit of an explanation.

502

:

There's some history in there.

503

:

So I say we're where history and

industry meet is what we are.

504

:

Cliff Duvernois: You've now

gotten to a point where you've

505

:

actually hired help, right?

506

:

So you've got these two young guys

that you've hired to come on on

507

:

board and help you out with that.

508

:

I'm assuming they're

internet social media savvy.

509

:

Yes

510

:

Roger LeLievre: in their 20s.

511

:

Of course,

512

:

Cliff Duvernois: so the first part

is is is you know why make that hire?

513

:

And then the second question I got for

you is why is it important to reach

514

:

out to younger people about the boats

Know Your Ships on that whole thing.

515

:

Roger LeLievre: Off your first

question first Uh, why is it, why

516

:

did I bring Sam Hankinson and Nick

Stenstrup in, that's their names,

517

:

is that I'm not getting any younger.

518

:

I'm, gonna be 70 in a couple years.

519

:

I can't do this forever.

520

:

It's important for me to

continue not only what I've done.

521

:

But it's extra important

for me to continue what Tom

522

:

Mance started, the legacy.

523

:

I wanted to take the opportunity

now while I could, to make sure

524

:

that that happens in the right way.

525

:

I was handed this publication

on the guy's deathbed.

526

:

I don't want that to happen again.

527

:

I want to have a plan.

528

:

So these two guys, one of them

actually works in the shipping

529

:

industry on the shore side part.

530

:

He works at a port in

Michigan, Port of Monroe.

531

:

But these two guys have

a passion for it already.

532

:

They understand the importance

of people's stories.

533

:

If it weren't for the people,

there'd be no shipping industry.

534

:

They get that.

535

:

They get it.

536

:

And they get it on a deep level.

537

:

And also, they can write.

538

:

You know, Sam's a great writer.

539

:

Uh, They have great ideas.

540

:

So many ideas, I can't believe

when we have idea sessions

541

:

and stuff that they think of.

542

:

I never would have even thought of.

543

:

And that's what it's going to take to

make the business continue, is it's got

544

:

to get, continue to change with the times.

545

:

Like, I brought in a

computer to do the book.

546

:

Well, they're going to

bring in something else.

547

:

Right.

548

:

Yes.

549

:

They're telling me I need to

have stickers and magnets.

550

:

So I have stickers and magnets.

551

:

And they're selling them like crazy.

552

:

So that's why it's important

to bring those folks in.

553

:

And then you talked about

the other younger people.

554

:

And that is a particular passion of mine.

555

:

Someone, namely Tom Mance, back in

:

556

:

gift of giving me his company and

sharing his talents and his skills

557

:

and teaching me and bringing me along.

558

:

And that's, at this stage of my life,

what is important for me to do, is share

559

:

and encourage and help in any way I can

to bring the next generation either into

560

:

the hobby or into the shipping industry.

561

:

And I've done both.

562

:

There are amazingly a large

number of young people that are

563

:

really interested in all this.

564

:

I often, I ask them, how did

you get interested in this?

565

:

You live in Montana and you want to,

566

:

Cliff Duvernois: You're

completely landlocked.

567

:

Roger LeLievre: Yeah, what happened?

568

:

You know, they all have

their various stories.

569

:

The Edmund Fitzgerald is one big reason.

570

:

But I get calls from grandmothers

that say, my little eight year old

571

:

can't get enough of these books.

572

:

Well, that's what I like to hear.

573

:

Because they're coming into a

hobby that is an outstanding hobby

574

:

with great people involved in it.

575

:

Yes.

576

:

there's actually a network of young,

young boat nerds, young kids that

577

:

Sam, my, my heir in there, heir

apparent, he takes charge of that.

578

:

And, we all keep a lookout for when

the young people come along and we

579

:

say, hey, there's this, whole group

of people they're called boat nerds.

580

:

And, there's this network of the

younger ones that would talk to their

581

:

parents and we do whatever we can to

just bring them along, bring them in.

582

:

Cliff Duvernois: There's so much more

I would absolutely love to dive into.

583

:

So that just means we're going to

have to have you back on the show

584

:

because there is so much depth here.

585

:

We've barely scratched the surface.

586

:

So Roger, if somebody is listening to

this, they want to, connect with you.

587

:

They want to check out your books.

588

:

What's the best way for them to do that?

589

:

Roger LeLievre: We

have, uh, knowyourships.

590

:

com is our website.

591

:

And that's where you can order the book.

592

:

You can order our new magazine.

593

:

We just started this summer called

Extra yeah, we have a variety of of

594

:

cool stickers and hats and magnets

and all that kind of boat nerdy stuff.

595

:

Great stocking stuffers or everybody's

got a refrigerator got to have a magnet.

596

:

You can find all that on knowyourships.

597

:

com.

598

:

There's another place you can

go is a website called boatnerd.

599

:

com Which is Great Lakes Ship

Central for the internet with

600

:

news and, and tracking systems and

histories of boats that go there.

601

:

Cliff Duvernois: Roger, thank you so much

for taking time to chat with us today.

602

:

Really do appreciate it.

603

:

Roger LeLievre: Thank you, Cliff.

604

:

I'll go anywhere at any time and talk

to anybody about Great Lakes ships.

605

:

Cliff Duvernois: Nice.

606

:

And for our audience, you can always

roll on over to TotalMichigan.

607

:

com, click on Roger's interview,

and find the links there.

608

:

We'll talk to you next time when we

talk to another Michigander doing

609

:

some pretty extraordinary things.

610

:

We'll see you then.

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