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1. What is a "healthy" building?

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2. Amazon doesn't have enough space for RTO

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3. Hyatt Lake Washington sells after bankruptcy

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About guest Nicole DeNamur - Owner, Sustainable Strategies and Owner, Climate Aligned Law:

Nicole is the owner of Sustainable Strategies which provides sustainability consulting services. She is also the owner of Climate Aligned Law, a climate focused law firm. She is an Affiliate Instructor at UW in the Deptartment of Real Estate and she is a former board member of AIA (American Institute of Architects).

About host Rachel Horgan:

Rachel is an independent event producer, emcee and entrepreneur. She worked for the Business Journal for 5 years as their Director of Events interviewing business leaders on stage before launching the weekly podcast. She earned her communication degree from the University of San Diego.

Contact:

Email: info@theweeklyseattle.com

Instagram: @theweeklyseattle

Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.theweeklyseattle.com

I'm Rachel Horgan.

Join me each episode as I sit down with a guest co-host covering the latest business stories in the Seattle area.

We'll read the news so you don't have to.

This is the weekly.

Hello, everyone.

I'm recording at the Sheraton Grand Seattle.

I have been working with Kelly Tweddle since before the pandemic, during the pandemic and after, and she's just an amazing saleswoman here.

And I needed a place to record, and I was trying to rack my brain of where would be a good spot.

So I reached out to her, and she just quickly contacted her team and got us a really beautiful space here.

So thank you to Sheraton and to Kelly.

I did say that for recording here, for giving us a space, I'd be happy to read whatever they want me to read and share whatever they want me to share about the Sheraton.

I will say just my own personal opinion.

I love doing events here.

I think the team's awesome.

They have a ballroom that fits up to 1200 people.

I've produced many events here.

I've attended events here.

I do really love it.

So personally, that's not paid for personally.

I do really like it here.

But here we go.

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Available for a limited time, reserve the Sheraton Grand Seattle's holiday package and receive complimentary access to the Sheraton Club Lounge and a cozy holiday-inspired hot cocoa amenity in your room to enjoy.

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How did I do?

That feels like I'm pretty good at commercials, huh?

I was sitting in silence.

I was just trying to be quiet.

Nicole's like, I'm trying to be a good guest.

I'm being quiet.

You did great.

That was great.

We did check out the...

It's in the lobby.

We did check it out.

And I was pretty impressed.

And you were in architecture.

You were pretty impressed, right?

I was impressed.

It was good.

I thought it was pretty cool.

OK, so who I'm sitting here with is Nicole DeNamur.

She's the owner of Sustainable Strategies and the owner of Climate Aligned Law.

Welcome to the podcast, Nicole.

Hi.

Thanks for having me.

It's good to see you again.

It's good to see you.

Now, let's talk about...

Let's talk about where we met.

So, we met at a Business Pride event, and you were one of the honorees, because you're a badass.

I'm an award-winning homosexual, yes.

That's correct.

Please have that on your resume.

I will.

So, you're one of the honorees, I'm the emcee, and part of that, you were...

I was assigned a few honorees to interview, but I don't...

Do you remember the beginning of the program where I kind of told a little bit of my coming out story?

I don't know if you remember that.

I told a little bit of it, and then people cheered, and it was like fun, and for me...

I thought it was a vulnerable moment for you.

I thought it was pretty cool.

Okay, so that's not the real version that I was going to tell.

Okay.

And I want to tell you the real version, because I don't think I've told you what I was actually going to say.

Okay.

So, well, I pitched it to my boss at the time, and we went through the script, and he was like, um, let's maybe not tell that part of it, which was totally fair.

I agree, it wasn't the time or place, but here's the real story.

So that event we do every year, and it's this honoring of people in the LGBTQ community and the business community.

And a few years ago, at the time, I was probably out to a couple of my friends, but not really anybody else.

And we do this event in 2021, and it's a virtual event for the same one you were in.

And all these honorees, I swear to God, they were like, it's so important to show up as your authentic self and like, you know, be out in the public and be a role model and like, live authentically.

And I was like, fuck, I have to tell my boss.

Like, I feel like we're close and I feel like I need to tell her.

And so the virtual event ends, I text her and I was like, Hey, Emily, I just want to let you know that I'm gay.

And like right now, my parents don't know.

I myself didn't really know, but this is who I am now.

I don't know if you've ever texted the word gay before, but it often auto corrects to fat.

So my text read, Hey, Emily, I just want to let you know that I'm fat.

My parents don't know and I didn't even know myself, but this is me now.

That's an unfortunate auto correct.

Okay.

So that was the original story.

I cut a lot of that out and I just said that this event inspired me to come out.

Well, that's hilarious.

And everybody gets the chance to come out in their own time when they're ready.

It sounds like you did.

And you also freaked the awardees out.

I don't know if you know this, but we did not know you were going to interview us live on stage.

Oh, okay.

No, I emailed everybody and I told people.

Okay.

Well, nobody read the email then because all of us were sitting at the table when you got up there with the second stool and looking at each other like, oh, this is going to happen.

So we were feverishly, I had notes on my phone and so did the, I forget the other honorary who was next to me.

We were all freaking out and then prepared to talk live on stage.

Well, you never would have guessed it.

You all did so amazing.

And I've listened, I've done a lot of research, I've listened to a lot of your podcasts that you've been on previously and you're going to, you're great.

It's all smoke and mirrors.

So a little bit about you.

You are, like I said, the owner of Sustainable Strategies, which provides sustainability consulting services, and then Climate Aligned Law is in your other business, and that is a climate-focused law firm.

You were a former board member of AIA, American Institute of Architects, and you're an affiliate instructor at the UW in the Department of Real Estate.

You're busy.

I'm busy, but I'm very fortunate to get the chance to teach.

We can get into that a little bit.

But yeah, I got a lot going on and it's really cool time to kind of be working in climate, trying to do new stuff and have the chance to share.

Yeah, very cool.

We have a couple of stories for you today, but before we do that, I want to get to know you a little bit more.

I love a story when somebody kind of goes from one area to another, and you were in construction law and then you shifted to sustainability.

I know you still practice law, that's still part of your life, but there was a kind of a moment where you shifted over to sustainability.

There was an article that said, they quoted you saying there's a fine line between bravery and stupidity, which I just love.

So, can you kind of share more about that brave moment of shifting and was it stupid?

I hope not, I'm still trying to figure it out.

That was an unfortunate headline that they picked up.

I think it was like in the American Law Journal or something like that.

But yeah, the short version of the story is I've been litigating construction cases for about 10 years here in Seattle and had the great experience to be at some really supportive firms that allowed me to do things like teach.

So, I dropped down to 80% while I developed the course that I still teach at UW called Risk and Reward and Sustainable Development.

I always have to think about the title because I have a lot of R's in there.

There is.

And I actually had a mentor, excuse me, tell me that my original name was Trash and that I should change it.

And she was right.

What was the original?

Oh, it was like Green Building Law and Risk Mitigation.

Snooze.

Nobody wants to take that.

Risk and Reward and Sustainable Development sounds a little bit better.

So, I was practicing and I was teaching at UW and I kind of dropped down 80% time.

And I was also doing things in the community like board service or participating committees through AIA Seattle, which we mentioned.

And really kind of developing this expertise in sustainability and interest and kind of trying to be a positive voice.

I'm generalizing here, but there was some concerns about risk as sustainability was hitting construction and development.

And my background is in environmental science.

I've always been an environmentalist.

I grew up in a rural area of Wisconsin.

And so I was really excited to kind of be the voice that was like, hey, buildings are really an opportunity to dive deeper into climate work.

And let's think about risk a little bit differently when we're thinking about the overall context of climate risk.

And maybe we can shift that from these kind of really acute fears about certain things in construction and design and take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

And so I'd kind of gotten to this point in my life where I've been practicing a certain amount of time.

I had some flexibility in my life.

I was with someone who was a business owner as well.

And I kind of thought if I don't...

And I turned 40 and I was like, if I don't do this now, I'm never going to do it.

So with like very literally shaking hands.

And I think I slammed like three of the recess drinks.

I don't drink, but it was one of those like adaptogen or something like that.

And I resigned and my firm was incredibly supportive as they had been.

But so I went out on my own and I had unfortunate timing of I had been accepted into Ignite Seattle.

Oh yeah, I pretty like that, yeah.

So I had a presentation, it's called Nobody Cares About Drowning Polar Bears.

That's a great title.

Yes, but you wouldn't believe how many people take that literally like I do care about drowning polar bears.

I'm trying to explain how sustainability suffers from this PR problem where we just think about polar bears.

But anyway, so I had Ignite Seattle, I was accepted to that and I launched my company in January 2020, and you might remember that Seattle shut down seven weeks later.

So that is the fine line of bravery and stupidity that I was talking about, of leading the golden handcuffs and to start something.

Obviously, I had no idea a global pandemic would hit, but I was at a point in my career where I was pretty established, and it was a big risk, and then we made it through, because all the company is still here.

I don't know, bravery or stupidity did it again and opened a climate-focused law firm to really help folks at the intersection as climate work becomes more regulated, to really have the opportunity to leverage my skills, to help folks navigate that new space.

So that's where that quote came from.

I was being interviewed by another lawyer, and I have a very different perspective on life and a lot of things, having gone from being a corporate person my whole career to for the past, I guess, almost five years now being self-employed business owner, and we were sharing earlier just all the things that you do, from accounting to marketing.

So did you get that health insurance yet?

Yeah.

We should, yeah, let's do the episode.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All the details and things that you need to work out, but it's fun and it's challenging, and yeah, I think there is a fine line between bravery and stupidity, and it's hard to know.

But I'm so glad you made the leap and, you know, took that brave step because it is scary to leave the comfort of a corporate job, for sure.

It is, yeah, and I can't say enough good things about the firms that I was at that supported me as well as my community.

You know, one of the reasons I was able to, I felt comfortable-ish making that leap was that I built up a strong community in Seattle of sustainability and real estate folks from board service to volunteering to teaching.

And I'm incredibly grateful for all those people who have helped and supported me to this day.

Literally on my way over here, I was calling a friend in my network and was like, hey, I have this small business owner thing going on.

Can I talk it through with you?

Oh, 100%.

I agree.

Don't go it alone.

One more thing before we talk about the news.

You mentioned another side of your world is teaching.

And I saw in one of the articles where you just pushed your way into teaching is something like that.

So how did you get into it?

Why was that important to you?

Should other people do it?

Yeah.

Yes, and yes, and yes.

So as part of that story I was sharing with practicing for 10 or so years about halfway through, was when I really got interested in sustainable development and kind of shifting this risk conversation like I was talking about.

And I thought, I'm not sure that I can change my industry, but I do think that I can influence future leaders in this space.

I probably didn't say it that way at the time.

Now that I'm 10 years removed from it, I can kind of think about it that way.

So I thought it would be really great to teach.

And I knew some folks at UW, the former dean of my law school, I went to Seattle Youth for Law School was then at UW, and I knew some other folks there who are practitioners as well.

One of the things that I think is cool about UW is they bring in a lot of practitioners who kind of have that practical experience and can help students navigate the real world.

And so I thought, well, why don't I pitch this course?

I don't know if it was, again, bravery or stupidity, but I just put it out there and got a syllabus from someone else, connected with the dean of the real estate department, which, again, I'm so grateful for the support I received over there.

But yeah, I had to go through a couple iterations of a syllabus.

There's all these kind of academic things that you have to go through to get courses approved.

And I think it's fair to say that I sort of like either like bullied my way in or something, but I was just persistent about it, I think, and kept coming back and say, hey, this is important.

And I really had to explain why this climate risk opportunity conversation was important.

And it took a while to get that pitch right.

And yeah, I just kind of stayed after it and literally was finally called into the office and they said, you know, you're up, you can go.

And I was just like shaking and I'd never taught before, much less it was a graduate level class at the time.

And so, you know, some of my students were had far more experience than I did and who was I to teach.

And so it was a it was a mildly terrifying experience, but this will be my 11th year teaching coming up.

Oh, wow.

I love that I didn't know that part where you brought the material to them.

I think that there's one thing to be like, hey, do you need help or whatever?

It's like, hey, this is what I want to teach and this is why it's important.

And I'm going to keep following up until you kind of see that.

So I love that.

But I also relate to like wanting something really bad and trying to get it and then you get it and you're like, oh, shit, now I have to do it.

Yeah, there was definitely like I could still picture myself in the and you know, college environment is this really cool architectural building.

And I literally went to the classroom and stood there was like visualizing myself teaching.

This is how nervous I was.

I stood there was like, okay, you can do this and you get better over the years.

And I think you learn, you know, I'm really there to facilitate the students learning.

You don't have to have all the answers.

But I think when you start teaching, you're like, oh, I have to have all the answers.

What do I do?

But yeah, it's been an awesome experience.

And but that's your point about like not picking up a class that's already like, I always encourage like you, you have so much to share, like teach, like everybody should teach, like, and we teach all the time, right?

Like you're right now, you're teaching me how to do a podcast, right?

And we're like teaching each other about what we do, right?

But like, I just, I think students need so, so much mentorship, particularly right now.

And I just, I happen to take that path.

But like if you or anybody else is listening to this is like interested in teaching, like, like go for it, try, you know, you have more to share than you think that you do.

I love that because I think a lot of people just think that they have to have study, education, become a professor.

And it's nice to know that there are places for people that have been in the real world have learned a lot and want to pass that forward.

So that's awesome.

No, I mean, I teach, I taught a graduate level class that I made up with no teaching experience.

You can do it.

You hear that everybody?

You can do it too.

You can do it and you should.

And you should.

Yes, I agree.

You have a lot to share.

All right.

So today's stories, it's the holidays.

So I don't know if you guys know this, but typically news isn't breaking during the holidays.

News companies aren't acquiring other companies.

It's pretty light.

And I could have picked up, there's some like boring ones on there.

And I could have brought it up.

But like, if I don't care, I don't feel like you guys are going to care.

So then this is all about us.

And this is about us.

Yeah.

So I ended up choosing three kind of topics that we're going to talk about.

The first one, we're really going to dive into Nicole's work.

And what is a sustainable building?

What's a healthy building?

There's some really interesting stuff here that we'll talk about.

Then there are two articles that we will bring into the conversation.

One is about Amazon and the return to office and some of the real estate stuff.

And the last one is what I'm calling right now the rise and fall of Hyatt Lake, Washington.

There's some interesting stuff happening there.

So let's start with your area of expertise.

Now, I mentioned earlier, you consult on sustainability.

That can sound pretty vague to people.

What are some specific examples?

Like, what are you talking about with your client?

I imagine you're not saying like, remember to turn the lights off, like help the audience and me understand, like, what kind of conversations are you having?

What issues are being brought up?

Yeah, there's a lot of different flavors of sustainability.

So there's a lot of opportunity as well.

So I think two examples that I can give, and we can probably dive into the first one, is one is helping companies create safer, more inclusive spaces that support health and wellness.

So I can get into exactly what that means.

I'm going to put a pin in that one.

Second one is probably what folks would consider sustainability or ESG, which is now sort of a politicized acronym, but environmental social governance.

So basically planning how to make companies more robust and resilient in the future with respect to environmental social and governance factors.

So it could be like maybe a construction company wants to green up their practices.

And so they'll come to me and say, hey, help us understand what's important to our stakeholders.

Help us understand that material areas where we can have an impact and the material areas that have an impact on our business and develop a plan that makes sense for us, that resonates with our clients and where we can actually have an impact, because not every industry or every business can do everything, right?

And so there's sort of a narrowing and a guiding and a competitive research analysis.

And a lot of times the undeliverable is a report or a plan that then the company can tweak over the years, show to their customers.

But what are we analyzing?

Are we analyzing air quality and how much water you use?

What are we looking at?

Yeah, so in the general contractor example would be like, what types of vehicles are they using?

What types of equipment?

Can it be electrified?

How are they maintaining the site to maybe reduce air pollution and things like that, either from burning fossil fuels or because it was like kicking up dust?

What potential like social impacts might they have?

What are their hiring practices?

All sorts of different things.

So it's kind of a broad brush.

But the thing that I see with sustainability is sort of this idea that like I have to do everything or I'm not doing enough, right?

Or if I can't do everything, then I shouldn't even try.

Yeah.

And let me dissuade you of that.

Like, start small, start somewhere, do something.

So I think impacts compound in meaningful ways.

So a lot of what we do as a consultant is help guide folks from that feeling of overwhelm or I can't do this or the sort of like, this is shiny, this is shiny, this is shiny to like, where can we have an impact?

What's important to our stakeholders and what's important to our business?

Because a lot of what we're also dealing with in sustainability now is climate risk, right?

So not just like, what are your impacts on the climate?

But in the general contractor example, where can you build?

Are you going to have challenges with the supply chain of getting materials because of climate or related risks?

So there's kind of a guiding piece to that, I guess.

Yeah.

Yeah.

In the events world, it was a big push.

I don't remember what year, where sustainability was like a big thing that we were talking about with conventions.

And that's when you start to see some of those like bamboo plates.

If you've ever been to an event with some of those bamboo plates or some of the compostable stuff.

And you still can do China, but a lot of people will opt for that.

And then a lot of conferences were saying like, bring your own water bottle.

And you would have bubblers out instead of passing out all these plastic bottles.

So there's, yeah, it sounds like there's a lot of things people can do, even if it's just a small thing.

I love that you just said bubblers too.

That's what they're called in the industry.

That's what they're called in the Midwest, where I'm from.

That's not a drinking fountain, that's a bubbler.

Yeah.

Well, there's a fountain and then there's a, anyway.

Okay.

Moving on.

Okay.

So one of the articles you were quoted in and it was titled, Can healthier buildings make us healthier people?

Yeah.

So can you elaborate on how buildings can make me a better person?

Well, I think better today and share it in.

Better spaces can make you a better person.

And also you're probably not aware of the negative impacts that traditional spaces have on you.

Okay.

Tell me.

So here's the scary fact that I give folks every time I speak on this.

So North American pre-pandemic average is 90% of our time indoors.

We spend 90% of our time indoors.

It's a North American pre-pandemic average.

So take your age.

You don't have to share what that is.

I'm 45.

I'm proud of my age.

I'm 36.

Okay.

Multiply that by 0.9.

I went to law school because I can't do math.

So use your phone.

I can't.

Whatever that is.

That's the number of years you've spent inside.

Okay.

And it's probably more than that because after the pandemic, we still spend more time inside than we did before.

Right.

And so there's that.

The other fact that you can tie in with that is that average pollutant levels are two to five times higher indoors than outdoors because we bring all sorts of chemicals and fragrances and other things that are like quote unquote new car smell into these spaces and then we trap ourselves inside for long periods of time with them.

That's just sort of looking at the air quality piece.

There's also lots of different aspects with respect to like lighting and acoustics and over stimulation and pattern and getting into these really sterile environments that lack any type of kind of natural visuals.

So, what we call healthy buildings can mean a lot of different things.

As I mentioned, the first kind of part of my work is helping companies create spaces that support health and wellness.

We can kind of get into the distinction of those things as well as being more sustainable in a lot of different ways.

So, some metrics that folks use to think about that are air quality, which I mentioned, water quality, believe it or not, we're just talking about bubblers, whether they're sort of like opportunities for activity in the space.

Can you get up?

Can you walk around or are you just kind of stuck at your desk?

Acoustics, lighting, all sorts of different ways to kind of think about a healthy building.

I can't give you a definition because buildings are all unique.

So, it's definitely...

And then it gets into conversations around equity, like inclusive restroom design, support for neurodiversity in the workplace, and some really cool research around kind of creating spaces that are more welcoming to more folks.

The way that I think about it and talk to corporate clients about it is everyone deserves the right to do their best work, and not all spaces work for all people.

So we can do a lot better.

Folks like me can help guide these conversations.

We can create better spaces that help set everyone up for success.

And then like how cool is that that we can get the best ideas and the best product and all these creative thoughts out of people because we set them up to do their best work.

Yeah.

So along those lines, I want to dive into inclusive space a lot here in just a second.

But before we get into that, can you explain what biophilia is?

Yeah.

So biophilia or biophilic design is are as humans are that we're innately drawn to nature.

So it could be that usually there's a window next to us.

Thank you, Sheraton.

They specifically gave us a corner and window room.

This is why when people daydream, they look out windows.

It's why if I asked you, you know, where were your past two or three vacations, they would very likely have some element of nature to them, whether you're sitting next to a lake, or whether you're skiing and experiencing the outdoors, depending on your ability level, right?

But it's our innate draw to nature.

And that's kind of how it shows up, is that you'll feel better if you sit next to a body of water.

If you're looking out a window, if you have a plant on your desk, there's actually a growing body of research that supports this.

And what's really cool, I think, is not just actually experiencing nature, but the research is showing that images of nature can be just as powerful.

So if we have folks who are, for example, in hospitals or...

I was going to say, that's where you see a lot of that is in hospital rooms and sometimes like a water feature and stuff like that.

Totally super important, because there's an access issue and a privilege issue in all these conversations, right?

But I think what's really cool is that research is coming out that's showing if we can't get folks outside because maybe they're bedridden or they have other types of challenges, images are actually a good way to help that too.

So there's some cool ways to think about biophilic design and to incorporate it in spaces to do things like reduce anxiety and various other metrics.

Yeah.

I remember there was an awards event, it was Commercial Real Estate Leadership Awards, and I was interviewing some of the honorees.

And I had just this, I was like commercial real estate, like I couldn't think of a more boring topic, like who cares?

But then I went in-

This is my industry, Rachel.

I know, but hey, but wait.

So then I go in and I do all these interviews, and I like get emotional in some of these interviews because I realize that they're doing the same thing that I'm doing, which is creating an experience for people.

And I just had never thought about it in terms of-

They were telling stories of how wide they made the sidewalk and where they put the plants, and then how tall the windows were, and just all this stuff that I'm like, oh, this is actually a very cool industry.

So I'm glad that you were talking about that.

I do want to pick up on something you said about making spaces inclusive.

So how can a building be inclusive?

We talk about language being inclusive and people being inclusive.

How can a building be inclusive?

Yeah, there's also, I guess the flip side is that there's all sorts of ways that buildings exclude people.

And so I give two examples.

There's lots of examples.

One of them relates to my lived experience, so I try to stay in my lane on that one.

But so we can think about inclusive restroom design, right?

So traditionally, we're presented with a men's and a women's restroom.

Now for someone like me, this is a podcast.

I'll use the words that other people used to describe me.

It might be androgynous.

And I'm also over six feet tall.

So take that as you will.

I look the way I look.

I think I'm great.

But anyways, my pronouns are she, her.

So if I walk into a women's restroom, sometimes I might scare folks.

That's embarrassing for me.

It's upsetting for the person who thinks that I'm in the quote unquote wrong space.

But when you're presented with those two options, that's what happens.

And so we can create more inclusive restroom design.

A good example that I like to give, if you've ever been to Town Hall, Seattle, they have the sort of, it's one restroom, and it has stalls with floor-to-ceiling doors.

So you pick the tool that you need within that space.

Some of them might have urinals, for example, or some might have a toilet.

And then that sort of flows through to a common sink, and then what's also like a sink area.

And then what's also really cool is then we have oftentimes infant as well as adult changing or support stations.

So we get have more, because otherwise only quote unquote women's rooms have baby changing stations.

I don't need to explain why that's problematic, I hope.

And we also seeing more adult support services, right?

So folks who are trying to get, who are caregivers for adults or aging folks or folks with mobility challenges can actually provide support in those spaces and experience places like town hall instead of not being able to go.

So that's one example of a more inclusive space or design, because I think about it like my anxiety is so reduced when I know that I have a safe restroom.

I'm not going to upset someone.

I'm not going to be embarrassed.

I'm not, you know, it's a not fun situation for everyone.

Yeah.

There's a couple other spaces and Lotte Hotel has it.

And the old optimism, which is now Stoop, has the same kind of set up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I like to give that example just because it relates to my lived experience.

There's lots of other ways the buildings exclude folks with respect to like racial diversity and other things that I'll let other folks comment on.

Another one that I think is a really cool emerging area of research is support for neurodiversity in design.

And there's a researcher, her name is Kay Sargent at HOK, an architecture firm, and she's doing a ton of research on how do we create spaces that support neurodiversity.

So examples are thinking more about acoustics, having choice higher and lower levels of stimulation.

You might say, oh, I work my best when there's a lot of noise and activity around me, or maybe I do this task best.

And I would say if I have to have focus, quiet, head down, no distractions, that's just the way my brain works, right?

And we're all neurodiverse, it's a spectrum, everybody's on it, right?

And so how do we create spaces that work better for more folks?

We think more mindfully about choice is a big one, and this gets to the return to office conversation I know we're gonna get into, as well as those different levels of stimulation and engagement in spaces, and how do we also provide quiet spaces for folks to reflect, or maybe just take a breath, or take a minute?

I often give the example of, we're all adults here, I go to therapy.

It's a great thing, great tool, love it.

Please participate if that makes sense for you.

But sometimes I would go to therapy at lunch at my work, right?

But there was no work.

Which you gotta do, you gotta do, right?

But then you gotta come back into work, and that is a tough transition.

Well, it's tough also, I was doing it virtually in my office, so then I have to close the lines whenever, and then I'd be like opening and being like, yeah, what's the meaning?

Right.

So let's set you up for success by having a room where you can have a little privacy.

Yeah.

Yeah, to go to, or if you're gonna take it, if you were gonna actually go to a therapy and then come back, have a space where you can take five minutes to just decompress before you jump into a call or getting back to work.

So I call those design disconnects when companies will provide great things like mental health support services, but not the second piece, which is like how do you get back in to work with that space, right?

And how do you have that quiet space, because that can be challenging.

One of the other, I think, a clear example that people a lot of times talk about is temperature, because the offices were set for the temperature that an average man in a suit would be comfortable in.

You're stealing my facts.

Well, this one's a known one.

This one I feel like a lot of people know.

So then all the women are freezing in the summer, which I've dealt with as well.

The other thing about neurodiversity or ADHD, quick comment.

I was listening to this podcast about burnout, and there was one that was about the connection between burnout and ADHD.

And I told my friend Mel, who's also a therapist, I was like, Mel, this episode's so interesting.

She was like, yeah, well, that makes sense, because you have ADHD.

I go, what?

She goes, what?

I thought you knew.

And I go, sure didn't, Mel.

What do you mean?

So anyway, she wasn't diagnosing me, but it made me think like, okay, maybe.

And I bring this up because when I was working in an office, when we came back from the pandemic, I have all my notifications turned off when I work by myself.

And there were people around me and their teams notifications just blaring.

And I thought I was going to fucking lose it.

So it made me think like, if I'm this bothered by some sounds and we have all these people that are like, it's collaborative and work environment.

Everyone sit right next to each other.

And that's just, you know, like you said, it doesn't work for everybody.

No.

And what's really cool about these design interventions, right?

When we create better spaces that work for more people is you might not want to share whether or not you have ADHD or whatever the case may be, right?

You just want a space that works better for you.

You don't want to have to maybe disclose that information or say something, right?

So we can just create spaces that work better for everyone and everyone gets the benefit of those spaces just by moving through them.

I think that's the coolest part about it.

But most many office spaces don't work for a lot of folks.

And so how do we just give everybody the chance to do their best work?

Because I think that's really what everyone wants at the end of the day to share, right?

Your own personal, like, joy, your sparkle, whatever it is, to put it on your work.

And if you can't, because you're cold.

And the other thing about the temperature conversation that really grinds my gears is, as you mentioned, the reason we have these temperature differences in offices are based on standards that were designed for men's clothing choices in like the 1960s, right?

So if you've watched Mad Men, they're like three-piece wool suits, right?

And I don't love the research here because it's very gendered.

It's men and women, but I'm just quoting the research, not how I see the world.

But, so women's metabolic rates are different, right?

And so they are often cold in these spaces.

But then the layer of that conversation is that if you raise a valid concern about your ability to focus and do your best work, your equivalent of the team's notifications is I'm freezing, I'm distracted, I'm grumpy.

You're dismissed as complainy, not advocating for your right to have the ability to do your best work.

So like people take anything away from this.

Like you have the right to do your best work and advocate for it.

You're not being whiny or complainy.

You're advocating for the ability to focus and to think and to have a fair chance.

Well, I think that's a good spot to move on to our next one.

Because I will talk about this for way too long.

I mean, I could too.

I have like more thoughts on bathrooms, about how I really want to get into that.

But you wouldn't believe how much I talk about bathrooms as a sustainability.

OK, I just have to say there should be music in every bathroom.

I said it.

OK, I said it.

There should be music in every bathroom.

Why not?

I mean, what's the counter argument?

I don't know, to rewire the electricity.

All right, we're going to move on.

So let's talk about Amazon.

They released everyone.

I think a lot of people know that they're supposed to come back to the office five days a week starting January 2nd.

An article comes out this week that says, oopsies, we don't have enough space for everybody.

Now, if you look into the article, there's six cities that are affected.

Seattle is not one of them.

It's Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Nashville, New York and Phoenix.

So some of these are going to be pushed back at least four months or so.

They can't start in January.

To me, when I first read this, I thought this feels like a classic decision made in the C-suite that they didn't maybe talk to operations about.

But I don't know, any initial thoughts on this article?

How does it make you feel?

The return to office conversation is a tough one, I think.

And it gets to our conversation about more inclusive spaces.

Are we making sure that everybody has the opportunity to do their best work in those spaces that they're being forced to go back to?

So that's the first thing that comes to mind for me.

And I think the consistent theme with all of these return to work or return to office conversations is why.

And I can't speak to Amazon's intentions there, but why do we need people back in the office?

And is being back in the office going to get them whatever goal it is they need or they're after, right?

I'll look at it from a design side, and I think we talked about this before too, that there's just a lot of risk in real estate.

It's tough to predict, it's tough to manage, it's tough to figure out.

So, I mean, I'm not entirely surprised that there's gonna be pickups like this where it's like, oh, oops, yeah, we don't have enough desks, so yeah.

When you're working with real estate clients, what's kind of a big challenge for you when you're trying to advise them on sustainability?

What do you run into?

One is the one that I mentioned already, which is the whole, like, if we can't do everything, we're not gonna do anything.

The sustainability overwhelm, which I get, like climate and eco-anxiety are real, and that translates to, like, we don't even know where to start, what do we do?

So I think that's one of the biggest challenges.

The other one is a perceived increase in cost, which I would argue against.

It all depends on how you think about long and short term costs.

It depends on whether or not you weigh the benefits of things, like a healthier space.

This gets into larger conversations on proactive health and wellness strategies versus reactive ones, right?

And if we create better spaces where people are able to do better work, they have reduced sick days, they have less absenteeism, and they're more present at work, they're able to do their best work, there are costs associated with that.

And so how do we think about implementing not only sustainability strategies, that's the name of my company, but also health and wellness?

What's also really interesting is a sustainability consultant, I was talking to another consultant about this is, a lot of the things we try to get our clients to do will actually save them money.

In the long run.

Even in the short term, like you think about the basics, you were giving the joking example of like turning the lights off, but like, yeah, turn the lights off.

Like electricity is not free, it's cheaper here in the Pacific Northwest for a bunch of reasons that were sort of layered.

But, you know, a lot of what I try to do is like use less, use less energy, use less water, don't have the buildings online all the time, don't give away all this swag.

I know you're going to want, but like, you know, like we don't need more, I don't need another water bottle.

I have way too many.

But it will forever be an interesting observation to me that a lot of what we try to get people to do initially really will save them money.

That sounds like a lot and I'm glad it's your job and not mine.

Or I gave too long of an answer.

No, I think it's good.

There's a lot.

These conversations are hard, for sure, and they're layered.

I think people who tell you that they have fast and quick answers probably are taking a little bit too narrow of a look at it.

Yeah, I agree.

We're going to move on to the last one.

There's quite a bit of background here that I'm going to explain.

We're going to start with Seco Development.

This is a development company with the CEO, Michael Christ.

He has this idea.

He was like, I want to have this multi-development area, multi-use space where there's office space, there's luxury high-end apartments, there's retail, there's this big hotel, Hyatt Lake Washington Hotel, which is over in Renton.

It's the very south end of Lake Washington.

He's like, this is going to be great.

This is going to be the next South Lake Union area, and it's going to be anchored by one big client.

You can think of how Amazon's anchored in South Lake Union and everything builds out from there.

Obviously, this is an expensive endeavor.

He gets almost $199, to be specific, but about 200 immigrant investors contributed at least $500,000 each through a federal program called EB5.

And essentially, if they contribute and invest this money, they get a green card.

So he gets all this money from all these investors.

The hotel opens in 2017.

It's a pretty large hotel.

It does pretty well.

It's right on the water.

I've been there a couple of times.

It's awesome.

Now, the office spaces kind of start to open up in 2019, and it's showing some promise.

We've got some tenants coming in, but he doesn't have that big tenant that he really wants.

So he starts negotiations in 2020 with a big client.

He doesn't name who it is.

I'm guessing it's Amazon.

That's just my guess.

But he has this, you know, in negotiations 2020.

Pandemic hits.

They obviously don't move forward with this real estate deal.

And he's having a hard time with his office space without that big tenant.

So in 2021, he sells off the office space, but he still has got this hotel that doesn't seem to be affected.

The hotel still seems to be doing well.

But from what I can see, and I'll link the article, is that he maybe took out too much of a loan to be able to pay it back because he eventually has to file for bankruptcy.

And he files for Chapter 11, which I'll remind everyone, Chapter 7 is where they liquidate everything and they sell everything.

Chapter 11 is like, okay, we'll come up with a plan to fix this problem that we're in.

So his plan that he came up with to fix it is to sell the hotel.

So he ends up selling it.

This is what the article is that came out, is that he sold it for about $100 million to a Texas company called Ohana Real Estate Investors.

Why a Texas company uses a Hawaiian name?

I'm not sure.

It's still going to be a Hyatt.

And for those that don't know, hotels are owned by a different group, and then they typically like fly the Hyatt flag.

So Hyatt's not bankrupt or anything.

They just pay to fly the Hyatt flag.

So the other part of the story is that 50 of these 200 investors sue Michael and are like, hey, man, you did not do well with our money.

You mishandled everything.

We're suing you.

We want some of this money back.

That has not been settled, but the hotel has been sold.

So how much of that money is going to go back to the investors?

We don't know.

Did I miss anything from when you read it?

No, I think you're on track.

It's a long story.

I had to read a couple of different articles to fully understand.

His lawyer's response is like, no, we didn't mishandle it.

There were high interest rates.

Also, the Hyatt made us make these changes to upgrade to fit with the Hyatt brand and blah, blah, blah.

They have these excuses.

So I've often seen these signs that are saying, reuse your towels to save the environment.

We were talking a little bit about the term greenwashing.

My understanding of greenwashing, correct me if I'm wrong, is companies, not only hotels, but a lot of people, a lot of companies, saying that they're doing something for the environment, but are they actually?

Another example is rainbow washing, which is companies saying they support LGBTQ by selling t-shirts, but they don't actually.

So kind of tell us more about your experience with hotels and sustainability.

Yeah, greenwashing is exactly the sort of like voluntary to regulated kind of example I've been giving, right?

We used to think of that you couldn't find a product that didn't have a leaf or a panda or a tree frog on it, right?

Now, we're using pretty technical terms like net zero and carbon neutral, and those are regulated in certain contexts if you're going to use that kind of language because it's a consumer protection issue.

So with respect to hotels, that is kind of the classic example of greenwashing, which I would define as misstating or overstating the environmental or human health benefits of a product or service, or stating or implying that they don't have any impacts.

So hotels, the card of save the planet by reusing your towels, yes, you should reuse your towels, is that going to save the planet?

Probably not.

But the theme is also like small ax compounds.

So there is this tension between like, what are you actually doing?

How are you positioning that to the public?

I think is the part that's under more scrutiny.

And then, is there meaning behind those claims?

And as they become more regulated, there's laws out of California and other areas that are saying, if you're going to make these types of claims, you have to basically show your work.

A really cool thing I have my students do because they're oblivious to the fact that they're being greenwashed all the time is from one of their assignments, they have to, this is the best place, I think, to find greenwashing in the consumer context is go under your bathroom or kitchen sink and look for a product that has exactly what I said.

It'll say green or has symbols are also greenwashing.

So like I said, a leaf or a placement or a color or something, find something that has that consumer messaging and you will probably pay a premium for it, you probably did.

If you're getting something of value or you are actually contributing something, that's one thing, but it gets to that.

So look at those products and then dive deeper into the company's website and see what they're doing.

So it's a good exercise.

My students minds are always blown that they are just being greenwashed all over the place.

But it's a good opportunity to kind of start that conversation and say, okay, how can I be a more educated consumer?

And I think we talked about this before too, like this is part of the nobody cares about drowning polar bears is sustainability also really suffers from a PR problem.

Like I think sustainability is always like don't use that, use less, don't we're the fun police, we're like don't turn the lights off, don't drive your car, da da da.

But people like me are really trying to flip that conversation into like, how do we get people excited about having an impact and a positive impact, particularly as we think about the intersections between climate and equity?

How do we really get students and colleagues to engage with sustainability in a way that's fun and exciting and not based in shame?

There's a lot of shame around sustainability, right?

And particularly for communities like the queer community who have been shamed for decades, right?

There's a lot of stuff there, right?

So how do we move away from shame and say, like, this is, you have a right to do your best work, advocate for yourself.

You have a right to a clean environment.

How can you as an individual kind of make a difference there?

You want to use better products in your space.

Take a look at what you're buying and understand more deeply how that might impact you or the environment if you're being greenwashed or maybe you're not.

Maybe it's actually a really cool product that's doing cool stuff.

And then let's buy that and support that.

So I think there's all these kind of educational opportunities, opportunities to engage and advocate that are coming up.

And that's what makes me so excited about working in the space and sharing it with people is there's just a lot of there's a lot of opportunity.

Yeah.

Well, and I know we're at a hotel, so I'll say, like, I think even if they say save the planet, like it might change somebody's behavior.

Totally.

And that still can be a good thing.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

That's just the classic example of if you literally Google greenwashing, that's sort of what comes up.

There's a lot of hotels doing a lot of cool stuff.

And so it's not to say that that's what's going on.

But like I said, we do want to move away from this whole small impacts, small little things really do compound.

It's like interest.

So do the little things.

They're meaningful.

So we're going to close out.

And I am going to ask you what advice you have for the listeners.

What's the best advice you want to share with them?

There's two things that I've learned as a small business owner.

One is, which I steal from the woman who started Spanx.

I can't think of her name, but someone will come up with it.

And that's to ask for what you want or need, particularly as a business owner advocating for your space.

You know, I talk about how you present yourself online.

Might be, oh, everything's great.

I've got lots of work.

Until I say to clients, hey, I've got capacity.

Do you need support?

Let's work together.

If you don't actually say that, the woman from Spanx was giving the example of she called up whatever distributor and was like, hey, do you want to sell my product?

I asked, right?

So I guess the one thing is ask for what you need.

Ask the question.

And the other one is when things are challenging, and things are challenging for a lot of small business owners now, things are challenging for a lot of people as we head into the next four years with a lot of unknowns and things are scary for our community and a lot of other communities, is I think when things are hard or scary, the first thing you should do is help.

Find ways to help other people, find ways to help your community, reach out to somebody, mentor.

If you're struggling or not sure what to do next, a great next step is to always help someone else.

I love that.

Well, thank you for helping me.

You're helping me.

In being on this podcast and educating all of us.

This has been really fun.

And thank you again to the Sheraton Grand Seattle downtown.

This has been really fun to record here.

Shout out to Kelly Tweddle again for setting this all up.

I love this hotel.

And thank you, Nicole.

Great space, big window.

You don't have to look outside.

Thanks for having me.

I appreciate it.

Thanks.

This has been The Weekly with production assistance from Nick Patri.

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