What if happiness and inner peace aren't things you have to chase—but something you uncover when you stop holding so tightly to who you think you're supposed to be?

We live in a world that constantly tells us to achieve more, prove ourselves, defend our positions and define who we are. Yet all that striving can leave us anxious, disconnected and exhausted. There is another way.

Award-winning author and alpinist Michael Schauch joins Women Road Warriors hosts Shelley Johnson and Kathy Tuccaro to explore Anattā, the ancient Buddhist concept of “non-self” at the heart of his book Anattā: Heart of Wisdom. It sounds mysterious, but its message is surprisingly practical: loosening our grip on the fears, wounds, identities and stories we carry can open the door to greater happiness, harmony, connection and inner peace. It happens when we loosen our attachment to the independent self and recognize how deeply interconnected we are with the world around us.

Anattā isn't about losing yourself, surrendering your power or allowing other people to walk over you. It's about discovering the deeper person underneath the roles, expectations and emotional reactions that can quietly control your life.

Michael explains why our attachment to an independent sense of self can intensify fear, dissatisfaction and an “us versus them” mentality. He also explores the Buddhist Four Immeasurables—loving kindness, compassion, joyful empathy and equanimity—and how they can help us build stronger connections and greater harmony.

You'll also discover why inner peace does not mean keeping the peace at your own expense.

Michael shares practical ways to begin: slow down, reconnect with nature, notice the stories running beneath your thoughts and emotions, and create enough stillness to hear what is happening inside you.

One of his most powerful insights turns our usual pursuit of happiness upside down: happiness and inner peace aren't destinations. They emerge as we become more aligned with our true nature.

Michael's path to this wisdom has taken him far beyond the meditation cushion. His extraordinary experiences include remote Himalayan expeditions, Alaskan ice walls, sacred places in Japan and the discovery of a Himalayan cave containing the ancient remains of 23 people. His connection with nature and a remarkable story passed down from his mother after her childhood in postwar Hong Kong helped shape his understanding of our connection to one another and the world around us.

Discover Anattā and a different path toward happiness, inner peace, self-discovery, mindfulness, emotional balance and human connection with Michael Schauch on Women Road Warriors.

In This Episode, Discover:

• What Anattā really means and why “non-self” is not about losing your identity, voice, power or boundaries
• Why happiness and inner peace aren't destinations but can emerge when we become more aligned with our true nature
• How the fears, wounds, identities and stories we hold onto can create suffering, dissatisfaction and disconnection
• Why recognizing our interconnection with other people and the world around us can create greater harmony and compassion
• How to step out of an “us versus them” mindset and respond to conflict with greater clarity instead of reacting from fear
• The Four Immeasurables—loving kindness, compassion, joyful empathy and equanimity—and how they strengthen human connection
• Why inner peace does not require women to surrender their voices or sacrifice healthy boundaries
• How nature can help quiet the mind, reveal hidden thought patterns and reconnect us with ourselves
• Michael's extraordinary discovery of 23 ancient human remains in a Himalayan cave and what it taught him about impermanence and the human experience
• How to recognize thoughts and emotions without allowing them to control you—like stepping out of a raging river and observing it from the bank
• Practical ways to create more stillness, mindfulness, emotional balance and peace in everyday life

What might change if you stopped searching outside yourself for the happiness, wisdom and peace you already have the capacity to experience?

About Michael Schauch

Michael Schauch is an alpinist and award-winning author who lives to explore the depths of nature and the human spirit and share the beauty of connection he discovers along the way.

His books have received accolades from authors including Ken Wilber, Bernadette McDonald, Sharon Salzberg, Stephen Cope and Wade Davis, as well as reviewers including Kirkus, BlueInk and Foreword. His work has appeared in Elephant Journal, Unity Magazine and Thrive Global, with notable mentions in Lion's Roar, the Vancouver Sun and the South China Morning Post.

His new book is Anattā: Heart of Wisdom.

Learn more about Michael Schauch and his work:

www.michaelschauch.com

Discover more inspiring expert and celebrity conversations from Women Road Warriors:

www.womenroadwarriors.com

Listen to Women Road Warriors wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Audible and YouTube.

#WomenRoadWarriors #Anatta #InnerPeace #Happiness #Mindfulness #PersonalGrowth #BuddhistWisdom #SpiritualGrowth #MentalWellbeing #MichaelSchauch #WomenRoadWarriors #ShelleyJohnson #KathyTuccaro

This is Women Road warriors with Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.

From the corporate office to the cab of a truck, they're here to inspire and empower women in all professions.

So gear down, sit back and enjoy.

Welcome.

We're an award winning show dinner dedicated to empowering women in every profession through inspiring stories and expert insights.

No topics off limits on our show, we power women on the road to success with expert and celebrity interviews and information you need.

I'm Shelley.

And I'm Kathy.

Many of us spend our lives trying to become somebody stronger, more successful, more secure and more certain of who we are.

But what if some of our suffering comes from gripping too tightly to the person we think we have to be?

What if inner peace is actually a strategy, a source of clarity that helps us stop reacting, protect our boundaries and respond from strength rather than fear?

Michael Shao has searched for answers in places where the noise of everyday life falls away.

From Himalayan caves and Alaskan ice walls to the sacred temples of Japan and the profound stillness that follows loss.

Michael is an alpinist, a member of the Explorers Club and an award winning author.

For 15 years he's also mentored and supported Tibetan Buddhist youth in Nepal and young people in Canada.

His first book, A Story of Karma, grew from a failed climbing expedition that led him to an unexpected family and an entirely new sense of purpose.

His new book, Heart of Wisdom explores the Buddhist concept of non self, not as disappearing, surrendering our identity or making ourselves smaller, but as releasing the fears, wounds and stories that keep us feeling separate from one another and from life itself.

Through extraordinary adventure, grief, family, Buddhist wisdom and experiences that defy easy explanation, Michael invites us to stop searching for every answer outside ourselves and become still and rediscover the wisdom of the heart.

Today we're going to talk about finding peace without surrendering our power and letting go without giving up and learning what becomes possible when we stop trying to control everything.

And people like to do that.

Kathy and I wanted to explore how those ideas translate into real life.

So we invited Michael to join us.

Michael, welcome to Women Road Warriors.

Thank you so much, Shelley and Kathy and thank you for having me here.

And, and Shelly, thank you for very much for that kind introduction and very comprehensive.

I mean, I was thinking, wow, can you come on my book tour with me?

Oh, yeah.

Well, you're pretty amazing, so yes, welcome to the show.

Yeah, no, I appreciate that.

Oh my goodness.

Michael, you have covered so many things here and this book has so much to offer.

I was wondering before we discuss all of this could you describe yourself in 60 seconds or less?

I mean, how, how did you come into all of this wonderful knowledge and the whole idea of the heart of wisdom and all of these things?

I mean, you've been a mountain climber and you certainly have seen so many parts of the world.

You've got a lot to offer our listeners.

It doesn't literally have to be 60 seconds, but just a summary, if you could, because we have so many wonderful things to cover here.

Yeah, yeah, no, I appreciate that, Appreciate that.

And I think if I tried to do it justice, it would probably take me longer than 60 seconds.

But suffice to say that my connection to nature has been critical.

Well, I would say two things.

One is my connection to nature has been critical in terms of identifying that deeper sense within myself and just being able to reflect on how, how, you know, we're parts of a much more complex and bigger world out there.

And sometimes we can get caught up in the stories, like you mentioned in the intro.

Sometimes we can get caught up in, in the stories that we attach to.

And so we can delve more into that.

But I think nature has been a reflective tool or a reflective mirror almost to help me understand myself better.

And so spending time in nature, and especially the mountains, has been very, very important.

The mountains are like elders of the earth.

They are our teachers.

They are perhaps some of our greatest teachers that we have out there.

And so that has been very important and has informed, yeah, informed my life for, for decades.

And then the other thing I would say is, is my mom has been very, very instrumental in terms of, you know, who I've developed into.

And, and there's a story, actually, I begin, I open the entire book with a story from my mom and it's a.

To share with me from her childhood.

And just briefly, she, she grew up in post second World War Hong Kong and she grew up with her, her mother and her older sister.

But when her mom, when my mom was 6 years old, her mother died of tetanus and very, very unexpectedly.

And that sort of, you know, crashed my mom's entire world.

And so there's just one, one thing she shared with me when she was sleeping.

So what they did was they, her and her sister, they lived in a shared space and they created a little shrine in their living.

Their shared living room.

And there was like some butter lamps and, and incense and a photo of her mother there.

And every night they would sleep there in front of the shrine.

They pulled the mattresses out and put them there.

And one night My mom felt like a hand stroking her forehead.

And a voice said, I have to go now.

And so, and my mom awoke and she saw her mom, her mother over her, and her mother stood up and went through the threshold of the doorway.

And my mom, you know, she was only six years old, she ran after her.

At that time they had these big.

They didn't have locks like conventional locks, but they had like big beam wood beams to bar the door.

And so she lifted the beam off and, and, and dropped it to the ground.

And she ran out into the open night after her mom and, and saw her mother at the bottom of these hundred stairs and.

And then her mother disappeared into the shadows and my mom was just sobbing there.

And eventually somebody heard her and brought her back home.

But my mom never repressed that memory and never kind of dismissed it as something, you know, there may be a thousand different explanations in terms of what that was, but my mom always knew it was her mother and her mother's love which shielded her throughout all kinds of hardships that she would have to endure throughout her life.

And that love then passed to me as well.

I feel and has influenced the connections that have, you know, shaped my life over the years.

And we can get into that as well.

You've got so much to talk about here.

Michael.

Your wisdom is amazing.

And I know that your perspectives on life.

Our listeners really can really learn so much from the concept of Anatta.

It means non self.

Am I correct?

That's correct, yeah.

So it's an old, that's the title of the book, Heart of Wisdom.

And Anatta is an old Pali word.

Pali is the language of the time of the Buddha.

Okay.

And so the word, as you say, the word means non self or I like to think of it as non attachment to permanence.

And if we think what that means, we.

Well, I guess if I back up one step, you know, if we think about where does our, where does our suffering come from?

You know, where does our dissatisfaction in life come from?

And it comes from this central idea that we are an independent self.

But if we can start to understand ourselves as not an independent self, but as a, as I said, like as a highly complex inter being with the world we inter exist with everything around us, then we can start to dissolve this illusion that we are an independent self and dissolve a lot of the suffering and stories that come with that as well.

You know, we are so self oriented and this is something that I think that more people need to really grasp.

How do we accomplish that?

Because I think that that does create a lot of dissatisfaction.

Yeah, I mean, it's not a.

It's not an easy path, and it's an ongoing practice.

And so, first of all, I think it's about spending time.

I mean, for me, it's.

It's been about spending time in nature.

Has.

Has been, as I said at the beginning, it's kind of been nature or the mountain has been that reflective mirror for me for many, many years.

And if I were to put it like this, I mean, imagine you're looking at a mountain, and somebody asks you, what, what is the mountain?

And if you have this particular view, you would describe the mountain as you see it.

And this is, you know, the shape of it, and this is what it looks like.

But somebody on the other side of the mountain might have a totally different view of that.

And those are just two views.

And then if we were to take a step even further back and maybe look at the mountain from the perspective of the earth, I mean, then we would see the mountain as a ripple on the surface of the earth, just as we would see a ripple of a wave on the ocean.

And that something that's moving, that's shifting, that's changing, that's been shaped for billions of years through glacier activity, and it shapes the world around it, and it's got depth all the way down to the core of the earth.

And so it's this, you know, ongoing shifting thing.

It's not even one, you know, thing that we like to think of conceptually as a mountain.

And so we can understand that intellectually when we're talking about a mountain, but when we try to apply that to ourselves, it's much harder, even though it's the same idea.

And so the more, you know, I spend time with nature, and the more I spend time, you know, reflecting on that inter.

Existence that we are all a part of, um, the easier it is to.

To kind of dissolve that or, or I guess, see through or transcend that sense of independent self.

Stay tuned for more of Women Road warriors coming up.

Dean Michael, the tax doctor here.

I have one question for you.

Do you want to stop worrying about the irs?

If the answer is yes, then look no further.

I've been around for years.

I've helped countless people across the country, and my success rate speaks for itself.

So now you know where to find good, honest help with your tax problems.

What are you waiting for?

Welcome back to Women Road warriors with Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.

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We want to help as many women as possible.

Kathy and I are here with Michael Schau and we're talking about a word I need you to sit with for a second.

Anatta non self.

Now, if you're like many people, your first reaction to let go of the self is absolutely not.

I fought too hard to have a voice, a boundary, a seat at the table.

But Michael's been telling us this is not what this means at all.

This isn't about shrinking.

It's about releasing what's been gripping you so tight you can't hear your own wisdom underneath it.

It's your inter existence with the world and how that promotes the sense of clarity and harmony you need to release your fears, your wounds, and the stories that keep you feeling separate from everyone else, your potential, and even the world.

Michael is the author of Anatta Heart of Wisdom.

Michael, you came into a lot of these perspectives from what I was reading after a failed Himalayan climbing attempt.

And you had a discovery of a cave with human remains.

And that gave you the opportunity to explore what the Buddhist bardo, which is the uncertain space between what has ended and what has not yet begun.

How did that really guide you with life transitions and the whole perspective behind this book?

Yeah, yeah.

So these bones in this cave up in the middle of the Himalaya, we stumbled upon them.

The intention wasn't to climb into a cave filled with human remains, but if we, we went up into this little cave and there were, it turns out that these bones, I found out later that they are over 2,400 years old, 23 individuals that were buried there with their animals like this is a long time ago, you know, pre Christ, pre.

You know, this is the time the Buddha.

And so.

Yeah, so I, one of the things that I, I was reflecting on actually it kind of goes back to this quote that I heard once by a Tibetan lama, a Tibetan monk, which said if we could see, if we could see the bones of our past lives, they would be piled higher than Chomolangma.

And Chomolangma is the Mount Everest.

It's a Tibetan word for Mount Everest.

And so what that means to me is that the number of things that had to happen for us to be here is just unfathomable.

I mean, if we think about all the lives, all the people, all of our ancestors, everybody who lived and shaped things and made choices and sacrifices and all the things for us to just be here.

But these bones in this cave, you know, as I was staring into the empty eye sockets of the skull, I was thinking like, you know, what if people found us, let's say 2,000 years from now, and that's what they saw?

What would they find?

You know, who would they find?

What would they know?

What would they think about us?

And so that story of not just our lives, but that story of humankind just continues to live on.

And so that, going back to our previous point, I mean that talking about impermanence or this idea of just the non self or that we continue to live this stream of, of human history is when we, when we zoom out like that, it's, it's easier to, to kind of understand that as well.

I think if they look forward to the future and they saw us, they'd be amazed at what we've accomplished.

But I think that they would also see us as very selfish, very self centered and very superficial in many ways.

That's just kind of my perspective.

I think that they took the time to contemplate and to really understand.

I don't think we do that.

Yeah, it seems like we do much less of it these days with all the different things we have.

And it seems like we're constantly rushing more, we're much more in our heads.

I find these days.

I don't know what things were like back then, but I do know the people I have met in the Himalaya and we've grown very close.

We've become like family to, to some of the families high up there.

They don't rush around like we do in our heads.

And they have much more time to just be with what they have.

For example, I was, I was on a pilgrimage back In March, April.

And I did this three week traverse through the mountains.

And it was fascinating.

One of the things I noticed was it was fascinating to take that much time.

You know, it wasn't that much time, but three weeks is a good chunk of time to spend in the mountains without any outside influence or no phones or no reception, WI fi, any of that.

But I realized how much time it took just for the mind to start to relax and just.

And once the mind is relaxed, you can start to feel these thought patterns start to bubble up.

And there would be like a thought, a thought system or part of what I thought is my identity would kind of bubble up and surface up.

And it's like, oh, okay, well, that's interesting.

There's that thought pattern and then beneath that there would be another pattern that would surface.

And then beneath that there'd be another pattern that would surface.

And so all these, these patterns that were, you know, if we're not aware of them, they just are behind the scenes running our, running ourselves without us even really knowing it.

I don't think we think that deeply,.

But I think it's huge.

I mean, we're talking about, you know, how do we develop or how do we cultivate better, better relationships with our, with ourselves and then also with each other.

I think it's very important to be aware of what are those thought matrices or those pre programs that are running behind the scenes that we don't even know are there.

And once we start to soften into that and see what's actually influencing our thoughts and emotions and all of that, then we can begin to be more empowered in terms of the response we have to our life.

You know, I think that I'm going to speak for myself, but once I started, I come from a very traumatic background.

And once I started to reflect on things changing inside of me and in my own thought patterns and the way I respond to things, everything else changed outside, right?

So I had to start by the self assessment, the self awareness, the, you know, doing the meditations and figuring out who Kathy really was in order to use that kind of like that mirror effect to respond accordingly to what I want outside, to my external world.

Right.

So I had to.

It's almost like the external world and the internal world collided and I needed to figure out who I was in order to be able to step out of that.

And I did it through the way of dreams, believe it or not.

And my dreams are so spiritually powerful that it showed me how to rise above and how to, you know, that What I was looking for wasn't outside.

It was inside.

You know, the kingdom is inside of you or each of us.

And that took me a long time to figure that out.

And I know, I know for just listening to you, I think you have that, that same reflective space that, you know, that has assisted you all along.

Yeah.

No, and that's, that's a very poignant reflection as well because I think when we start to understand those stories, I mean, as traumatic as some of them might be, we start to understand that they are, they are there, but they are not our true nature.

They're not us.

It's like when we go back to the mountain analogy, you know, you describing what the mountain looks like, that that's not false.

That's one part of the mountain.

But if you were to start saying that that is the mountain and that is the truth, that that is the true view of the mountain, well, that would be a false perception, false perspective.

So all of these parts of us, these experiences, traumas, all the stories, they're all there.

They're all parts of it.

And I think we can honor those.

I think it's sacred because it's gotten us to where we are.

But if we were to treat those perspectives as our true fundamental self, that would be, that would be a kind of a false view.

Stay tuned for more of Women Road warriors coming up.

Dean, Michael, the tax doctor here.

I have one question for you.

Do you want to stop worrying about the irs?

If the answer is yes, then look no further.

I've been around for years.

I've helped countless people across the country, and my success rate speaks for itself.

So now you know where to find good, honest help with your tax problems.

What are you waiting for?

Welcome back to Women Road warriors with Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.

We're in the middle of a conversation I think a lot of our listeners needed today with alpinist and author Michael Schau.

His new book is called Heart of Wisdom and at its core, it's asking a question most of us never stop to ask ourselves.

How much of my life is spent gripping onto who I think I have to be?

Michael spent years chasing that answer in some of the most remote, unforgiving places on earth, and he's bringing it back down the Mountain for the rest of us with a lot of great insight.

Michael, you talk about your own personal experiences and you introduce a lot of different concepts I think that are extremely powerful.

What would you say is the main takeaway that people are going to find with your book?

Is it inner peace?

Is it self discovery and how we relate with other people, maybe expanding our horizons?

I think we all need to do that.

Yeah.

No, I mean, I think all of those things one might find a reader might find in the book.

I wrote the book.

Not as a.

It's not meant to be a self help book or anything like that.

And there's a lot of those kinds of books out there.

I find there's a lot of intellectually stimulating, instructive sort of guides out there and they all have a place and that's fine.

But what this book is meant to do, it's meant to help us soften those things that we are gripping onto and sort of bring us into that deeper place, Kathy, that you were mentioning.

That's our fundamental true nature within ourselves.

And the more we can let go or loosen our grip on those, those stories or those narratives that are running within us and soften into our true nature, the easier it is.

We can, we can begin to understand that.

That concept that we were talking about, that idea of.

Of you know, inter existing or inter being with the world.

And.

And then like Kathy, exactly like you said, then our view not only shifts of ourself, but.

But our view as we look out into the world begins to shift as well.

Yeah.

With all of our technology, it seems like we've narrowed our perspective.

And you're expanding it.

The whole concept of what?

Reconnecting with nature.

We've got a lot of isolation in our worlds.

Even though we are technologically connected, many of us are really isolated.

And you're really expanding people's horizons and reintroducing what people have known for thousands of years.

Yeah, I mean, I hope so.

I hope that that's the intention of the book.

And, and if we think about, you know, again, going back to this idea that we are very much in our heads, especially in the western world, the more we're in our heads, the more we are, are attached to these.

This idea of an in like, of an independent self existing, the more we're actually putting ourselves at.

It's almost like we put ourselves at the bottom of a well and then our view of the world becomes very narrow.

You know, imagine being at the bottom of the well, looking up at the sky.

And so the more we identify with this sense of independent self, the more our view narrows and we begin to live life as though it's just me.

It's just about me and whatever I can get.

And you know, if, if somebody else wins, then I lose and, and all these things and then fear creeps in and, and, and all, and anxieties and all the afflictive emotions tend to, tend to, tend to get stronger.

And so.

But if we can, if we can begin to rise above that and rise out of the.

Well, in terms of, you know.

No, I.

The primary view is not an independent existing self, but this highly, highly interdependent or inter existing self, then we can soften those views of that life is just about me.

And we can begin to connect with the world in a different way.

And like you said, Shelley, to expand our own internal horizons and then that almost directly opposite to us would reflect or would expand our external horizons as well in terms of what we can see into the world.

Well, we're getting out of the us versus them mentality.

We're widening our scope and.

Well, I think we're finding things with your perspectives on how we're more united than we think we are.

We get away from the things that divide us.

It's a lot about human connection, isn't.

Is?

Exactly.

And the more we actually connect with humans, the more it helps us elevate out of that metaphorical well as well.

You know, for example, there's, there's a practice, you know, Buddhists practice what they call the four immeasurables.

And the four immeasurables are.

Well, they're immeasurable, but they, they are, it's not like they, they run out or.

It's not like we have, we, we, we're not born without them and we have to cultivate them or it's not like some people have more than others.

It's, it's.

These are qualities that are natural to us, that exist in our, in our, in our own naturalness.

So.

And the four immeasurables are loving kindness, compassion, joyful, empathy.

So the idea of, of taking joy and others, well, being and, and equanimity.

Equanimity meaning not being, you know, not swinging around with any sort of perceived good or bad things that might be coming in front of us.

And so, so if I go back to my mom's story, for example, you know, that loving kindness that, that transferred from her mother to her and then from her to me, you know, practicing that helps elevate us out of that metaphorical well Helps us understand ourselves in our.

In the context of the world in which we live and.

And helps us see our.

Our own true nature.

So it absolutely does, Shelley.

As you said, it connects us with and unites us by practicing these things.

It actually unites and connects us with the world around us.

So it's a matter of what.

Aligning with non self to navigate so we're not polarized, we can handle conflict, and we can get away from the disconnection.

I would imagine by grasping all of this and really understanding it, we've got a chance at inner peace.

And I don't think a lot of us have that, especially women.

I think that a lot of women are conflicted.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

I think there's a lot of, like you say, I think there's a lot of.

Yeah, conflict out there, internal conflict.

You know, society's pulling different strings, what we should be doing, expectations, all of those things.

Right?

And these are all just.

Again, these are all, all stories.

If we're aware of them, they have less power to govern our own, you know, the way we view our own self.

So the more we are governed by these stories, the more they're gonna whip us around and cause, you know, afflictions and, and.

And suffering and dissatisfaction and all of that.

So, yeah, I mean, my friend Paula Arai, she said healing is a pilgrimage.

So it's an ongoing practice.

It's not like we achieve, you know, we achieve something like enlightenment or, or something like that, and then it's like, oh, okay, we're here.

It's.

No, it's.

It's just.

It's an.

I mean, it gets easier, but it's an ongoing practice at the same time.

So we just.

I think we get better at recognizing our own true awareness the more we practice these things.

Stay tuned for more of Women Road warriors coming up.

Dean Michael, the tax doctor here.

I have one question for you.

Do you want to stop worrying about the irs?

If the answer is yes, then look no further.

I've been around for years.

I've helped countless people across the country, and my success rate speaks for itself.

So now you know where to find good, good, honest help with your tax problems.

What are you waiting for?

And get your life back.

Welcome back to Women Road warriors with Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.

We're here with Michael Schau, and what he's sharing today goes straight to something, I think so many of us are quietly searching for our fundamental, true nature.

Underneath the roles we play, the titles we hold, the armor we built up over the years.

Michael's book, Heart of Wisdom, asks us to look at what's actually there.

Anatta means non self.

It shows us how to learn to be interconnected again with the world and expand our horizons.

And here's the beautiful part of it.

Releasing the self isn't a loss.

It's a release, a release of the fears, the wounds, the old stories that have kept us feeling separate from each other and from life itself.

And on the other side of that release, clarity, peace, connection.

It's a process that takes practice, Michael.

We're always evolving, aren't we?

We are.

I think we.

Yeah.

Yeah, we are.

I. I hope that I am.

Okay.

Some.

Some people.

I have to say this.

Some people don't.

Can almost digress.

Or some people stay the same.

I'll.

Quick, quick story.

I went back with my sister to my hometown growing up.

We.

We left as soon as I was 18.

I swore I'm getting the heck out of there.

And I did.

And 15 years later, my sister and I went back.

And I swear the same people were doing the same thing.

This one guy, he was still leaning against that same post that he was when I left 15 years ago.

And I'm telling my sister, I'm like, lynn, look, I don't even think he changed his jeans.

It's the same thing.

Like, it was like a time war.

We went back to the same bar.

People are still sitting on the same bar stool talking about the same stuff.

And I'm like, oh, my God.

I'm like, I don't ever want to be like that.

I want to evolve and grow and.

Change and expand, you know?

Yeah.

I mean, maybe.

Maybe their.

Maybe their external view didn't change, but maybe their internal view changed.

I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't know.

It really is like a time warp.

Kind of freak me out.

Well, a lot of people are pretty myopic.

They have just one trajectory.

They don't look to the left or right.

They forget the periphery.

And you're introducing some of that and how we're all interconnected.

And that would create more of a situation where you do have inner peace and you get along.

Can you imagine that?

People getting along?

Right.

Yeah.

Well.

And I think that goes back to what we all would like.

I mean, we all want to be free of suffering.

We all want to be satisfied with our lives in the way that they are.

And.

And we all want to be happy.

And.

And.

And the interesting thing about this is that the way our minds are geared, it's almost like thinking that we have to get somewhere to.

To get these things.

And where in reality, you know, we talk about happiness, we talk about inner peace.

I mean, these are.

These are experiences of being aligned with our true nature.

So it's not like we go to try and get happiness.

Happiness is the experience of being aligned with ourselves, aligned with our true nature.

So if we're aligned with our true nature, it's not about like, can I get happiness or can I get, you know, inner peace or can I get, you know, whatever inner joy or all that stuff?

I mean, those are things that will come as a result of the experience of us being aligned with ourselves.

That's something I think all of us can learn and get better at.

I think that that's huge.

Now, Michael, if you were to describe your book in maybe the Cliff Notes for our listeners, what are they going to experience from page one to the.

The end of the book?

Yeah, well, the book itself, it's.

It's not a.

It's not a big book.

It's.

It's 140 pages, and it's six essays or six short stories, all from personal experience in the mountains, connected to the mountains in some way, but all.

All wrapped around this theme that help us, again, loosen that grip onto what we think is the truth of ourselves.

And by doing that, can help us soften into that much deeper place and that much deeper true nature that is with us all the time.

It doesn't like.

It's not like it's there, and then it's not there.

It's always there.

It's just our ability to recognize it sometimes changes.

So I'm hoping that the book.

I mean, the book, I've heard people describe it as a.

As a retreat for the mind or as a shelter in challenging times or.

Somebody said it's a sort of light for those ready to come home.

And so I hope that the book helps the readers kind of, again, soften through those layers of what we believe is ourself.

And then, you know, upon softening through those layers, we can start to understand what is our true self and then thereby practice that and start to move into these things that we're talking about of, like, connection and peace and happiness and all those experiences that come along with It.

I think a lot of people are grasping to find themselves.

They're reaching externally, though.

And of course, with social media, you have so many messages of this is who you are, you know?

Yeah, I've been told this is who you are.

Oh, yeah.

And it's got to be.

Oh, my goodness.

Being a teenager today, I couldn't imagine.

No, thank you.

No, not at all.

You would feel so vulnerable, so exposed, and you constantly be comparing yourself to other people.

And that's where the polarization comes in.

Which is the exact opposite of who we're supposed to be.

Right?

Yeah.

I mean, again, if you go back to.

If we can cultivate that.

That sense of true nature within ourselves, which is the same true nature for.

For anybody, for everybody.

Again, we all want the same thing.

We all want to be free of suffering.

We all want happiness.

We all want, you know, connection with ourselves and each other.

So if we can recognize and we're all part of this, this, you know, again, this collective existence, if we can recognize that, then we can start to.

To see these, almost these illusions of polarization for what they are and.

And not react from them, but again, respond to life from a place of.

Of shared collective identity.

Inner peace is.

Is a real important concept here.

And I think women are often expected to keep the peace.

And I think people want to achieve inner peace, if that's possible.

I don't think they know exactly how to approach that.

How can people achieve the inner peace and release that need to win while still maintaining firm boundaries?

I mean, we have to have good boundaries, but, you know, get rid of this us versus them, I gotta win and the heck with you, and also keep the peace.

I mean, that's a lot to think about.

But it.

It's possible, isn't it?

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah, it absolutely is possible because again, that is our true nature.

And our true nature is there always with us.

We just need to recognize it and to recognize it.

It's small steps.

So it's.

It's not like this.

I mean, maybe it happens overnight for the odd person, but for most of us, it's small steps.

Practicing in, practicing in the right direction.

And practicing means, you know, what are the things we can do to connect with ourselves, to take the time out to connect with ourselves.

So it might.

I mean, again, going back to nature, it might mean a stroll through.

If we have nature nearby.

I mean, most of us have.

Have access to some form of nature nearby, and we are part of nature or we are nature.

So we can see in nature the same qualities that we can see in ourself.

Everything is there.

Everything happens for a reason.

Nothing in nature happens out of coincidence.

And it's all part of this, you know, one unified entered being system.

So the more we can kind of be in nature with that mindset and give ourselves the time, give ourselves the chance, do this, give it, do the service to ourselves, to, to, to be there in that, cultivating that stillness, you know, without the earbuds, without.

In whatever it is.

But yeah, I mean, just give ourselves a chance to see what wants to surface and, and to see what wants to absorb into us.

And, and, and those, those things that want to surface, I mean, they could come as triggers, they could come as, you know, body pains.

They could come as, I don't know, our body and our mind are always sending us those little signals of what we might be attached to.

And those things are important to listen to because they are clues to what, what we're holding on to deeply within us.

So when those little signals or body pains or whatever it is manifest or come up or those emotions, or when we feel a trigger, it's good to pay attention to those things and then start to see what that might be pointing to that we might be hanging on to within us that's causing that sense of identity or self, or small self, if I can call it that, or suffering.

And so those are all practices that, that begin to unfold as we, as we give ourselves that kind of space.

You know, when you say the whole connecting with nature, there's only one, one thing that really that has been part of my life is my mom, ever since I've been young, has been telling me to go hug trees.

Yeah, go hug a tree, Gabby.

It's just feel the energy from the tree.

My mom was very wise and she.

Said, if you can find an oak tree, it's even better.

So she still tells me, have you hugged a tree lately?

I'm like, mom, well, okay.

I mean, there's a lot of truth in that.

The vibrations of a tree, the earth energy, the earth wisdom that's in the forest.

I mean, it goes back to my comment about the mountain.

And, you know, how much wisdom is in a mountain, how much I've learned from mountains.

And I mean, I like to hug rocks, but maybe trees.

Well, there's, there's some tremendous power that nature has and permanence that as our world just seems to just rush on by and it's fleeting.

You've got permanence there.

You've got power.

You've got something that you can depend on.

And I do think that human beings want to have something that they have as a foundation.

We don't like change.

And maybe there's comfort in experiencing nature and realizing this has always been here.

Well, at least as long as human beings have been here.

Yeah, I mean, we come from it, we are born of nature.

So it's really.

Yeah, it's embedded, deeply, deeply embedded with us and it's imparted its own wisdom into us as well.

So we have that place, we have that sacredness, that wisdom that we talked about within us and those pillars of loving, loving kindness and compassion and, and joyful empathy and equanimity.

I mean, the more we practice these things, for some people, maybe it's harder to practice these things.

I mean, if, especially if it's somebody we don't like bad to have loving kindness towards somebody we don't necessarily agree with or like.

But, but if we, if we recognize even in those people that they're, they are still trying to do, you know, move towards the same thing that we're trying to move to, which is not to be suffering and, and not to have, you know, to be satisfied, not to have dissatisfaction with their life.

So their innate nature is the same as our innate nature.

And if we can recognize that again, that true nature, it helps us cultivate these things even towards people we don't like.

Well, I think if we understand our true nature, we're coming back to ourselves.

Absolutely.

Yeah, that's exactly what we're doing.

And so many of us are running away from ourselves.

Yeah, I would, I would, I would tend to agree.

I mean, you know, what does embodiment mean?

What does it mean when we embody ourselves and too much in our head?

I think we're actually disembodying of ourselves.

We're actually outside of our ourselves in that way.

I've heard a term self realization.

I've read about that off and on in different kinds of books.

What does that mean to you?

To realize true self or to realize true nature is to embody ourselves and is to recognize our own awareness.

Not the awareness of letting yourself be run by your emotions and thoughts and all that stuff.

I mean, imagine most of us are if we're being governed by our emotions and our, our day to day thoughts.

It's like being in a river, it's like being in a river of our thoughts and emotions and we're just trying to like paddle our way through all of it and, and stay above water and all these thoughts and emotions Are like kind of pushing us around and in different ways and.

But if we can cultivate the awareness that's, that's behind all of that or, you know, I don't know, behind is the right word.

But that's, it sort of transcends those thoughts and emotions.

Then we actually remove ourselves from the river.

We're sitting now on the bank of the river and we can watch the thoughts and emotions like we would watch a stream from outside of the river.

And, and it helps us to realize again the truth of our life that we're not in the river.

We don't have to be in the river battling all these thoughts and emotions.

We can actually have this self realization that we are not our thoughts and emotions.

I like that.

Thank you.

I do too.

Dang.

So Michael, where can people find your book?

It's available anywhere books are sold.

So on Amazon or if you have a favorite local independent bookstore.

I always encourage people to buy local if they can.

It's available there as well.

Would you say if non self oranata helps us become more authentically ourselves, who would you say you've been becoming with all of this?

I mean, how has this really grown you as a person?

Yeah, that's.

That's a great question.

I, I think all of this is a practice.

I mean, writing, I love writing.

Writing is a practice as well.

And it goes back to what we were talking about doing.

The things that connect, that allow us to connect to our authentic self, to our true self.

And so the more I kind of do this or the more I practice these things, whether it's writing, whether it's spending time in the mountains, whether it's, you know, whatever it may be, the things that allow me to connect with myself, the more just, it just loosens, it goes back to what we were talking about.

It just loosens my grip on, on, on these so called identities or stories or narratives or, you know, I mean, we're all human, right?

So things.

Some, somebody might do something or somebody might say something or, or do something that, that triggers me or, or, you know, I feel like, okay, there, you know, anger is now bubbling up there or, or maybe I get afraid of something that's unfamiliar.

But the more I kind of practice these things, whether it's writing or spending time out there, I'm kind of.

It helps to be less on the trigger of reacting to thoughts and emotions and more in tune with, okay, I can see them all bubbling up again.

Like being on the bank of a river versus in the river and, and then I can figure out the best way to respond.

Being reactionary is not in a good position, you know, and too many of us are reactionary.

And you're allowing people to find piece and to be able to take a step back and in a way you're kind of slowing time down.

You're able to react to a situation, but you're not reactionary.

And that's the hope.

I hope this book creates that little bit of glimpse, I guess, into helping recognize exactly what you just said.

You're bringing out the wisdom in people and it's heart of wisdom, so it's an appropriate title.

Do you have a website, Michael?

Yeah, the website.

If you want to find out more.

It's just my name, so Michael M I C H A E L and then my last name S C H A U c h. So michaelschau.com and.

People can go to their booksellers and Amazon and so forth to find your book as well.

That's correct.

Yeah.

It's out there at any book vendor.

Wonderful.

This has been a very deep conversation, but I think very intuitive and really helpful to our listeners and I hope it really generates some huge curiosity where people want to pick up your book and learn more.

Thank you so much, Shelly, and thank you, Kathy, and thank you for having me on the show.

This has been really, really good, you know, having this conversation with you.

I'm going to work tonight and I'm going to be doing some, a lot of reflecting on, you know, where have I come to at the age of 57, you know, where am I going?

What is, you know, doing that whole self reflection.

And I think it's really important that people do that.

Stop and think, you know, to do reassessing.

Doesn't matter how many times you do it in a lifespan that I think the important part is that you actually do it.

And having this conversation with you today has just kind of re motivated me to do that.

Stop and think and say, hey Kathy, where are you at today and what is it that you need to do to.

To continue growing?

So thank you very much.

Yeah, no, certainly it's been my pleasure.

Thank you.

Thank you, Michael.

This has been terrific.

Thank you.

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