Unlocking the Secrets of Comedy with Joel Morris

Summary

In this episode of Present Influence, host John Ball delves into the intricacies of comedy with Joel Morris, the prolific comedy writer behind beloved characters like Paddington Bear and Philomena Cunk.

Joel discusses his book, 'Be Funny or Die,' shedding light on the rhythm of humour, the similarities between jokes and music, and the universal nature of comedy. They explore how jokes are constructed, the importance of setup and timing, and the challenges of creating comedy in today's diverse media landscape.

Whether you're a professional speaker or simply someone who loves a good laugh, this episode offers invaluable insights into the craft of comedy.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Joel Morris and His Comedy Craft

01:20 Discussing 'Be Funny or Die'

01:44 The Mechanics and Philosophy of Comedy

02:54 Comedy as a Universal Language

06:16 The Journey of a Comedy Writer

11:53 The Role of Persona in Comedy

17:16 Writing Process and Inspirations

23:02 Mocking Doc and Shakespeare

23:36 Philomena Cunk's Interviewing Skills

23:40 Favourite Person to Write For

25:33 Comedy at the BBC

32:14 The Craft of Comedy Writing

36:03 Advice for Adding Humour

40:44 Upcoming Projects and Final Thoughts

Visit presentinfluence.com/quiz to take the Speaker Radiance Quiz and discover your Charisma Quotient.

For speaking enquiries or to connect with me, you can email [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn

You can find all our clips, episodes and more on the Present Influence YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@PresentInfluence

Thanks for listening, and please give the show a 5* review if you enjoyed it.

Mentioned in this episode:

Last Call For Founding KBPB Mebers

There's one last spot in the founding membership of The Known, Booked & Paid Blueprint. This is the only time you can get the program at 50% off. After that, it goes to the full program price, which is still great value, but it's not half-price value. Find out if it's the right fit for you at presentinfluence.com/kbpb

What do Paddington Bear, Philomena Cunk and Mitchell and Webb have in common?

2

00:00:05,039 --> 00:00:08,879

Today's guest, that's what Joel Morris

is, the mind behind, some of the most

3

00:00:08,879 --> 00:00:13,890

beloved and brilliantly written comedy

on screen, but he's also the author of

4

00:00:13,890 --> 00:00:18,689

Be Funny or Die, possibly the best book

ever written about the craft of comedy,

5

00:00:18,944 --> 00:00:21,015

that doesn't suck all the joy out of it.

6

00:00:21,494 --> 00:00:25,874

And in this episode, we dive into what

makes things funny and what doesn't.

7

00:00:26,205 --> 00:00:31,485

The rhythm of humor, why jokes are

like music, and why being funny might

8

00:00:31,545 --> 00:00:33,795

just be the most human thing of all.

9

00:00:34,575 --> 00:00:38,144

Whether you're a professional speaker,

a casual storyteller, or someone

10

00:00:38,144 --> 00:00:41,385

who laughs awkwardly at funerals,

you're going to love this one.

11

00:00:41,637 --> 00:00:43,137

Welcome to Present Influence

12

00:00:43,137 --> 00:00:46,467

the show for expert speakers, coaches

and leaders who want to master

13

00:00:46,467 --> 00:00:49,814

the communication game And develop

their ethical influence skills.

14

00:00:49,814 --> 00:00:52,064

My name's John Ball, keynote

and presentation coach,

15

00:00:52,064 --> 00:00:55,549

influence Expert, and your

guide on this journey to mastery

16

00:00:55,549 --> 00:00:56,749

level communication skills.

17

00:00:57,132 --> 00:01:01,872

I feel very honored and privileged today

to be able to welcome my guest, who is,

18

00:01:01,892 --> 00:01:06,542

behind some of my favorite comedy on

TV welcome to the show, Joel Morris.

19

00:01:06,587 --> 00:01:06,937

Joel Morris: Hello.

20

00:01:06,937 --> 00:01:07,857

Lovely to be here.

21

00:01:07,857 --> 00:01:07,997

Thanks

22

00:01:07,997 --> 00:01:11,737

John: I think after reading your

book I hadn't realized how much TV

23

00:01:11,737 --> 00:01:14,347

comedy you were actually behind that I

24

00:01:14,497 --> 00:01:15,787

have watched and thoroughly

25

00:01:15,787 --> 00:01:16,176

enjoyed.

26

00:01:16,176 --> 00:01:19,896

You are a prolific creator of

comedy and it's great to see that.

27

00:01:20,317 --> 00:01:23,432

And one of the things we mainly want to

talk to you today about was your book.

28

00:01:23,510 --> 00:01:24,650

I, Hopefully we get to a few

29

00:01:24,650 --> 00:01:26,890

other things as well, but your

book, that came out a while

30

00:01:26,890 --> 00:01:27,990

back called Be Funny Or Die

31

00:01:28,020 --> 00:01:28,840

Joel Morris: I'm gonna hold it up there.

32

00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:30,160

Look, look, look,

33

00:01:30,715 --> 00:01:31,381

John: Hey, there it is.

34

00:01:31,771 --> 00:01:34,591

And I have thoroughly

enjoyed the audiobook version

35

00:01:34,591 --> 00:01:37,795

of that, so I've gotten very used to

hearing your voice from that, but I do

36

00:01:37,801 --> 00:01:39,991

have a preference for audiobooks as well.

37

00:01:40,291 --> 00:01:43,231

I wonder for you, what was

the intention behind the book?

38

00:01:43,231 --> 00:01:44,131

Like who did you write it

39

00:01:44,201 --> 00:01:47,621

Joel Morris: Well, it was inspired by

the usual rule you'd want to read it.

40

00:01:47,801 --> 00:01:49,061

So I wanted to read a book like this.

41

00:01:49,110 --> 00:01:52,191

When I was a kid, I read some books

that were a bit like this, but there

42

00:01:52,191 --> 00:01:54,281

weren't any books that explained, jokes.

43

00:01:54,281 --> 00:01:58,370

Not necessarily in a mechanical way or

comedy, particularly in a mechanical

44

00:01:58,370 --> 00:02:03,130

way, how to do it, but why we do it

and what we are doing when we do it.

45

00:02:03,530 --> 00:02:04,100

I was really surprised.

46

00:02:04,100 --> 00:02:09,199

There are loads of books on music

and music's very inexplicable.

47

00:02:09,259 --> 00:02:13,535

People would say, you can't explain why

Beethoven or The Beatles are beautiful.

48

00:02:14,750 --> 00:02:17,550

But it doesn't stop there being

Loads of books on exactly that.

49

00:02:17,829 --> 00:02:19,180

but weirdly, there wasn't

anything on comedy.

50

00:02:19,180 --> 00:02:21,790

There was stuff about the history

of comedy or about comedians, but

51

00:02:21,790 --> 00:02:22,720

there wasn't anything about it.

52

00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,200

And because I'm a musician as well, that

music and comedy were almost identical.

53

00:02:26,540 --> 00:02:29,690

you are trying to get a visceral

reaction from people dancing, smiling,

54

00:02:30,030 --> 00:02:35,305

to bypass their resistant brain, and

get a nice reaction from a social group.

55

00:02:35,785 --> 00:02:36,625

They're very similar.

56

00:02:37,195 --> 00:02:40,495

I thought I'll write a book about it,

talk to some clever people, find out how

57

00:02:40,495 --> 00:02:43,945

it worked, but to try and do something

useful for people who work in comedy.

58

00:02:44,395 --> 00:02:47,725

But I'm very aware it's a very small

village, the Comedy Village, even

59

00:02:47,725 --> 00:02:49,765

internationally, there aren't many of us.

60

00:02:50,065 --> 00:02:52,735

So I want to do something that would

appeal to people who are consumers

61

00:02:52,735 --> 00:02:54,325

of comedy and users of comedy.

62

00:02:54,745 --> 00:02:58,215

Whether it's telling a joke to a friend

at the pub, doing a best man speech

63

00:02:58,215 --> 00:03:01,935

at a wedding, a presentation at work,

an email, a social media posting.

64

00:03:02,145 --> 00:03:08,270

You can get it wrong very easily, and

my job is to try not to get it wrong

65

00:03:08,970 --> 00:03:11,160

professionally, because I don't get paid.

66

00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,040

And I thought, that means I've

probably put a lot of guardrails

67

00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:16,710

up while I've been working to make

sure that I don't want to room go.

68

00:03:16,950 --> 00:03:19,290

This is the funniest joke in

the world and no one laugh.

69

00:03:19,740 --> 00:03:21,690

Maybe that's a useful

skill to share around.

70

00:03:21,740 --> 00:03:22,640

to investigate it.

71

00:03:22,670 --> 00:03:24,230

But I found out loads

while researching it.

72

00:03:24,290 --> 00:03:26,875

I thought I was quite clever at

the beginning, but I found out how

73

00:03:26,875 --> 00:03:28,495

little I knew by the time I finished.

74

00:03:29,795 --> 00:03:32,105

John: for me it was a very

interesting book I have read.

75

00:03:32,105 --> 00:03:33,335

I think I've only come across one.

76

00:03:33,935 --> 00:03:36,905

Book, or, I mean, it's kind of

a course really from Audible.

77

00:03:36,905 --> 00:03:40,265

Audible have these great and there's

one called, Take My Course Please.

78

00:03:40,265 --> 00:03:44,213

Which is all about theory of comedy,

and I had never really found anything

79

00:03:44,213 --> 00:03:47,960

that was properly about theory of

comedy before, but your book is.

80

00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:50,870

Very much about possibly a

bit more accessible.

81

00:03:51,060 --> 00:03:52,829

I learned a lot from

listening to it as well.

82

00:03:52,885 --> 00:03:57,095

and I remember you compare comedy to

music a bit and, say that there are

83

00:03:57,095 --> 00:04:00,525

similarities with rhythm and beats you

have to hit which I definitely agree with.

84

00:04:00,925 --> 00:04:03,085

I think anyone could learn

a musical instrument.

85

00:04:03,115 --> 00:04:05,695

Maybe not always well, but

anyone could learn to play music.

86

00:04:06,055 --> 00:04:09,805

Do you think anyone can do comedy

or other people who are just,

87

00:04:10,045 --> 00:04:12,025

they're never really gonna get it?

88

00:04:12,295 --> 00:04:12,970

Joel Morris: I reckon.

89

00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:14,080

See, that's a very good thing.

90

00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:15,010

I've never thought about that.

91

00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:16,750

I think it's true of both.

92

00:04:17,149 --> 00:04:18,110

I was officially a musician.

93

00:04:18,110 --> 00:04:20,000

I've had records out, I've written songs.

94

00:04:20,310 --> 00:04:23,040

but my brother is the musical

one in my family and always

95

00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:23,730

was when I was growing up.

96

00:04:23,730 --> 00:04:26,700

My parents, when he's the musical

one, you are the arty writing

97

00:04:26,700 --> 00:04:28,141

one, and when I was about 16, I.

98

00:04:28,705 --> 00:04:30,925

bought myself a guitar

and went bloody mindedly.

99

00:04:30,925 --> 00:04:31,225

I will.

100

00:04:31,555 --> 00:04:35,605

And here we are many decades later and

my brother is still the musical one.

101

00:04:36,955 --> 00:04:39,445

He's still more naturally

talented, more naturally gifted.

102

00:04:39,445 --> 00:04:40,525

has a better ear for it than I have.

103

00:04:40,775 --> 00:04:41,345

but I can play.

104

00:04:41,975 --> 00:04:42,695

And I think that's it.

105

00:04:42,695 --> 00:04:45,515

I think it's a bit like football

or, or anything, but, or tennis.

106

00:04:45,695 --> 00:04:47,585

You might get good

enough to enjoy doing it.

107

00:04:47,945 --> 00:04:49,355

You might not be a world champion.

108

00:04:49,355 --> 00:04:51,985

And I think that the thing with good

comedy you can learn what not to do.

109

00:04:51,985 --> 00:04:53,755

And I think we do the same with music.

110

00:04:53,805 --> 00:04:57,615

If you've got a guitar out at a party and

everyone said, go away, this is terrible.

111

00:04:57,855 --> 00:05:00,255

You might stop, a good

person would stop doing it.

112

00:05:00,715 --> 00:05:02,935

similarly, if you told jokes and

they die, you might stop doing it.

113

00:05:02,935 --> 00:05:04,975

On the other hand, you might

try and learn to get better.

114

00:05:05,395 --> 00:05:09,685

So I think failing at it, you fail and

get better, but also if you're good at

115

00:05:09,685 --> 00:05:11,335

it, you get encouraged to do it again.

116

00:05:11,725 --> 00:05:13,065

So it's those 10,000 hours.

117

00:05:13,725 --> 00:05:17,400

I mean, all I know is that I've

written more jokes in my life

118

00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:18,510

than I've done anything else.

119

00:05:19,050 --> 00:05:21,420

And I started doing that

probably when I was about five.

120

00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,890

So I've just got more hours under my

belt, which means that I probably avoid

121

00:05:26,460 --> 00:05:30,500

pitfalls better than others, when you

become a professional at anything, if

122

00:05:30,500 --> 00:05:34,790

you've got a better sense of how a car

works, you are more mechanically minded,

123

00:05:34,820 --> 00:05:38,180

you can become a garage mechanic and

you'll be better at it than I am.

124

00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,840

There are people who are better at putting

up shelves than me, things like that.

125

00:05:41,840 --> 00:05:43,730

But I think there's a certain

amount of natural gift, but also

126

00:05:43,730 --> 00:05:47,420

there are things you can learn and

mistakes you can learn not to make.

127

00:05:49,050 --> 00:05:51,900

John: do you think that maybe we've

covered, I think we all want to be

128

00:05:51,900 --> 00:05:55,409

funnier probably, and certainly for

professional speakers and communicators,

129

00:05:55,409 --> 00:05:59,040

it's a great skill to be able to

put into your presentations and keep

130

00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,220

people more engaged and can really

have a lot more impact with it.

131

00:06:02,580 --> 00:06:05,325

But do you think there's a thing

of, I see this way, like, people

132

00:06:05,325 --> 00:06:09,045

just accept that musical instruments

take a long time to learn, whereas

133

00:06:09,045 --> 00:06:13,725

something like comedy, people tend to

think you either are or you aren't,

134

00:06:14,205 --> 00:06:16,125

and that it's not something

you learn over time.

135

00:06:16,475 --> 00:06:19,345

Joel Morris: Well, part of this is

to do with the process by which you

136

00:06:19,345 --> 00:06:20,605

become a professional comedy writer.

137

00:06:20,845 --> 00:06:22,495

You start out doing what everyone does.

138

00:06:22,495 --> 00:06:26,765

You make your brother or sister or your

mom or dad or your classmates laugh.

139

00:06:27,605 --> 00:06:30,435

I talk about the moment that divides

us from the tiny percentage of

140

00:06:30,435 --> 00:06:32,475

DNA that divides from bananas.

141

00:06:32,685 --> 00:06:33,405

The tiny differences.

142

00:06:33,795 --> 00:06:37,545

Can you share that joke with the class is

the point at which you become a comedian.

143

00:06:37,595 --> 00:06:40,235

if you can't share the joke with the

class, it doesn't mean you're not funny.

144

00:06:40,745 --> 00:06:43,655

It means that joke is just designed

for you and your very close tribe.

145

00:06:43,995 --> 00:06:46,015

everyone can make their very close tribe.

146

00:06:46,015 --> 00:06:49,180

their sibling or their partner

laugh, or their best friend laugh.

147

00:06:49,659 --> 00:06:50,640

But people always say that.

148

00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,250

They go, oh, you want to get

my mate so and so on the telly?

149

00:06:53,250 --> 00:06:54,210

He's so funny.

150

00:06:54,510 --> 00:06:57,705

And you go, but is he funny

to people who don't know him?

151

00:06:58,935 --> 00:07:01,725

And that question is difference

between being able to be a comedian.

152

00:07:01,915 --> 00:07:03,265

And I think most people are funny.

153

00:07:03,295 --> 00:07:05,235

I mean, the thing I always laugh

about is they always say the

154

00:07:05,235 --> 00:07:06,645

Germans have no sense of humor.

155

00:07:06,645 --> 00:07:08,895

And you go, well, we have

a German royal family.

156

00:07:08,895 --> 00:07:11,260

I think the reason we're so rude

about them in England is that sense

157

00:07:11,260 --> 00:07:13,270

of humor is almost identical to ours.

158

00:07:13,470 --> 00:07:15,630

they paid to make extra Monty Python.

159

00:07:15,630 --> 00:07:16,830

They're very similar to us.

160

00:07:16,980 --> 00:07:18,060

My brother lives in Germany.

161

00:07:18,060 --> 00:07:21,540

And I would say the sense of humor

marginally different but not as vastly

162

00:07:21,540 --> 00:07:23,280

different as it is from county to county.

163

00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,490

In the UK we have this insistence

that other people aren't funny.

164

00:07:26,490 --> 00:07:29,370

But all you're saying there is that

their tribe has a different thing

165

00:07:29,370 --> 00:07:30,570

that makes them laugh than you do.

166

00:07:31,020 --> 00:07:33,650

But we know that by listening to jokes

in different cultures and jokes about

167

00:07:33,650 --> 00:07:34,880

different cultures, you can always share.

168

00:07:35,330 --> 00:07:37,520

I don't think there are people who

are and aren't funny or there are

169

00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:38,750

some people who aren't funny at all.

170

00:07:38,750 --> 00:07:39,620

They're very dry.

171

00:07:39,950 --> 00:07:42,350

But sometimes those

people are hugely funny.

172

00:07:42,710 --> 00:07:46,610

I think that the key to it with learning

it is learning that you are sharing.

173

00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:48,320

The best jokes.

174

00:07:48,380 --> 00:07:49,730

This is the thing I talk

about in the book a lot.

175

00:07:49,980 --> 00:07:52,170

Sometimes the best jokes are an in joke.

176

00:07:52,170 --> 00:07:55,440

A joke that is only for you and a

friend who gets all the references,

177

00:07:56,130 --> 00:07:57,510

but you can't share those jokes.

178

00:07:58,120 --> 00:07:58,750

the trick is, I

179

00:07:58,865 --> 00:08:02,295

John: you say that, the best joke is

one told between two siblings at a

180

00:08:02,410 --> 00:08:04,151

Joel Morris: yeah, it's got

absolutely everything in it.

181

00:08:04,151 --> 00:08:07,145

In fact, the book came off me saying

that to someone and they went justify it.

182

00:08:07,145 --> 00:08:07,895

And I went, oh, hang on.

183

00:08:08,165 --> 00:08:09,125

So I thought, there's a book in this.

184

00:08:09,375 --> 00:08:11,385

but it was a thing I'd always

said, I've got two siblings.

185

00:08:11,385 --> 00:08:15,053

We used to make each other laugh and

we were laughing at a family funeral.

186

00:08:15,203 --> 00:08:19,073

And I thought, this is a very special joke

'cause I can't share it with anyone apart

187

00:08:19,073 --> 00:08:20,273

from people I'm sharing it with right now.

188

00:08:20,483 --> 00:08:23,603

If I said it out loud, if I

stood up, I'd misread the room.

189

00:08:23,873 --> 00:08:24,683

It'd be the wrong mood.

190

00:08:24,733 --> 00:08:28,483

The only room that it works in is the

tiny space between two siblings heads

191

00:08:28,783 --> 00:08:32,743

whispered at the back of a, and it's the

same as telling a joke in the back of

192

00:08:32,743 --> 00:08:36,193

a car, or your boss is in the front or

telling a joke at the back of the class.

193

00:08:36,193 --> 00:08:37,273

And the teacher's very strict.

194

00:08:37,852 --> 00:08:41,673

it's about sharing, you're sharing a

token of exchange, as a tribal token of

195

00:08:41,673 --> 00:08:42,993

exchange and there's an intimacy to it.

196

00:08:43,443 --> 00:08:48,423

And I think that's where professional

comedy is a matter of turning up on

197

00:08:48,423 --> 00:08:51,063

the doorstep of the BBC television

center or something like I did

198

00:08:51,063 --> 00:08:54,003

when I was a kid and going, I bet

you I can make you laugh as well.

199

00:08:54,633 --> 00:08:55,653

And then they go prove it.

200

00:08:55,653 --> 00:08:56,433

And you go, right.

201

00:08:56,823 --> 00:08:57,393

Oh, hang on.

202

00:08:57,393 --> 00:08:58,923

All my jokes are about

my teachers at school.

203

00:08:58,923 --> 00:09:00,363

This is no use, right?

204

00:09:00,363 --> 00:09:02,013

I've gotta think of something

that you'll get as well.

205

00:09:02,013 --> 00:09:05,253

And you start looking for common ground

and then you start making them laugh about

206

00:09:05,343 --> 00:09:06,663

what's in the fruit bowl or whatever.

207

00:09:06,903 --> 00:09:08,523

But you are constantly

looking for common ground.

208

00:09:09,213 --> 00:09:14,223

It's an incredibly primal form of

communication that's to do with sharing.

209

00:09:14,613 --> 00:09:16,983

And the people who say, can

you learn to be a comedian?

210

00:09:17,823 --> 00:09:19,473

No, I think you can just learn to share.

211

00:09:19,923 --> 00:09:23,193

And your first job as a pro comedian

is you are writing for other people.

212

00:09:23,193 --> 00:09:25,233

Unless you are a standup or

you're presenting yourself.

213

00:09:25,593 --> 00:09:28,263

My job, I've never been a performer, so

the first thing I've always had to do is

214

00:09:28,263 --> 00:09:30,313

listen, understand who I'm writing for.

215

00:09:30,373 --> 00:09:30,883

I did a job.

216

00:09:31,258 --> 00:09:33,688

This year for a very, very good standup.

217

00:09:33,688 --> 00:09:34,228

She's brilliant.

218

00:09:35,128 --> 00:09:37,768

And I was given a tiny amount of time

to do it 'cause I had very little money.

219

00:09:38,098 --> 00:09:41,188

And I said, What I'm gonna have to

do is I'll do the day's work, editing

220

00:09:41,188 --> 00:09:44,698

the script, but I'm gonna have to

take her for a coffee or a beer the

221

00:09:44,698 --> 00:09:46,468

night before to get to know her.

222

00:09:46,533 --> 00:09:49,048

'cause I know her as a performer,

but I don't know her because I took

223

00:09:49,048 --> 00:09:50,278

her and her partner out for a drink.

224

00:09:50,278 --> 00:09:51,088

And we got that.

225

00:09:51,298 --> 00:09:53,338

It was taxable expenses, it's fine.

226

00:09:53,458 --> 00:09:54,328

But I didn't get paid for that.

227

00:09:54,328 --> 00:09:56,608

it was just me listening and

going, okay, where are you from?

228

00:09:56,608 --> 00:09:57,268

What's your childhood?

229

00:09:57,318 --> 00:09:58,158

what's your age group?

230

00:09:58,228 --> 00:09:59,668

what toys do you find funny?

231

00:09:59,668 --> 00:10:02,398

Are you a Transformers kid or

are you an evil can evil kid?

232

00:10:02,448 --> 00:10:04,938

and that meant that I could join her

tribe and then the next morning hit

233

00:10:04,938 --> 00:10:07,878

the ground running with the script,

edit and be speaking her language.

234

00:10:07,908 --> 00:10:08,753

But the first thing

you're doing is listening.

235

00:10:11,148 --> 00:10:11,298

John: Cool.

236

00:10:11,328 --> 00:10:14,008

I'm have to run some of my

open mic material by you, Joel,

237

00:10:14,078 --> 00:10:15,068

Joel Morris: I need to

know everything about you.

238

00:10:15,068 --> 00:10:15,998

I need to know where you're from.

239

00:10:16,358 --> 00:10:17,408

I'll do some Valencia material.

240

00:10:17,408 --> 00:10:18,158

I know where you live.

241

00:10:18,158 --> 00:10:18,848

This is all I've got.

242

00:10:18,918 --> 00:10:21,608

it's as same as it does when you turn

up at a wedding or a conference or

243

00:10:21,608 --> 00:10:24,308

something, you are listening to people

hopefully to find out where they're from.

244

00:10:24,458 --> 00:10:27,248

And when you pitch a joke in,

the reason sometimes they go

245

00:10:27,248 --> 00:10:28,238

dead is you weren't listening.

246

00:10:28,678 --> 00:10:32,188

you pitch a joking about fox hunting

and that person was an animal

247

00:10:32,188 --> 00:10:33,298

rights activist or something.

248

00:10:33,308 --> 00:10:34,478

the first thing you should do is listen.

249

00:10:34,658 --> 00:10:36,878

And it's what you cringe

about when you get it wrong.

250

00:10:36,908 --> 00:10:37,658

I get it wrong all the time.

251

00:10:37,708 --> 00:10:41,128

you go in enthusiastically thinking

you are amongst your friends

252

00:10:41,158 --> 00:10:42,268

and suddenly go, oh, hang on.

253

00:10:42,688 --> 00:10:46,018

Everyone here went to public

school and I'm doing some kill

254

00:10:46,018 --> 00:10:47,278

the rich material that won't work.

255

00:10:48,608 --> 00:10:48,938

John: Right.

256

00:10:49,338 --> 00:10:49,548

Yeah.

257

00:10:49,548 --> 00:10:52,598

I was, doing open mic last week

and one of the guys, I thought he

258

00:10:52,598 --> 00:10:55,388

had some great jokes, but they were

all kind of about philosophy and

259

00:10:55,388 --> 00:10:58,928

philosophers, and like ancient

philosophers I think they're quite

260

00:10:58,928 --> 00:11:01,058

funny, but the room is not getting

261

00:11:01,058 --> 00:11:01,208

them.

262

00:11:01,268 --> 00:11:02,528

Like people do not get

263

00:11:02,918 --> 00:11:05,148

Joel Morris: the first thing you

do is I always explain this to

264

00:11:05,148 --> 00:11:08,258

people people obsess about jokes

and I talk about it in the book.

265

00:11:08,768 --> 00:11:10,478

The joke is the last thing.

266

00:11:10,778 --> 00:11:12,008

It's the setup that's important.

267

00:11:12,228 --> 00:11:14,148

you can do philosopher jokes.

268

00:11:14,148 --> 00:11:15,378

You can do ancient Greek jokes.

269

00:11:15,438 --> 00:11:17,268

Natalie Haynes is very

funny about ancient Greeks.

270

00:11:17,508 --> 00:11:21,228

If you let everyone know who you are

in the opening couple of seconds, or

271

00:11:21,228 --> 00:11:23,508

the opening couple of jokes, and you

go, I am someone who's just gonna

272

00:11:23,508 --> 00:11:26,358

do jokes about the philosophers,

The audience will be on side.

273

00:11:27,238 --> 00:11:29,488

they won't necessarily be laughing

at the jokes about the philosophers.

274

00:11:29,488 --> 00:11:32,518

They'll be laughing at you as the

kind of person you go to an open mic

275

00:11:32,518 --> 00:11:34,018

night and do jokes about philosophers.

276

00:11:34,198 --> 00:11:35,188

You're a great clown.

277

00:11:35,968 --> 00:11:37,388

That's a good, Niles and Frazier.

278

00:11:37,668 --> 00:11:40,188

you've misread the room and

pitched your references too high.

279

00:11:40,488 --> 00:11:41,448

That could be really funny.

280

00:11:41,448 --> 00:11:45,898

You could probably get laughs without

anyone knowing the gags or the references,

281

00:11:45,948 --> 00:11:47,028

because you're welcoming people in.

282

00:11:47,238 --> 00:11:50,298

It's why the first two or three minutes

of a standup routine is so important.

283

00:11:52,608 --> 00:11:53,443

John: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

284

00:11:53,443 --> 00:11:55,703

But you say that as a performer,

as a standup, you're the

285

00:11:55,703 --> 00:12:01,913

clown, and do you feel that you have

to have your persona, your comedy

286

00:12:01,913 --> 00:12:06,503

lens very clearly displayed, like

as stated very early on for your

287

00:12:06,608 --> 00:12:07,238

Joel Morris: yeah, totally.

288

00:12:07,318 --> 00:12:09,238

when you go into a strange room

and you are listening for, you

289

00:12:09,238 --> 00:12:11,518

live a jokes, the audience are

also listening for clues from you.

290

00:12:11,518 --> 00:12:14,378

So it's why, all standups

routines start with where they're

291

00:12:14,378 --> 00:12:15,548

from, what they look like.

292

00:12:15,728 --> 00:12:17,168

A really, OTs let himself go.

293

00:12:17,318 --> 00:12:18,338

So you Oh, that's who it is.

294

00:12:18,608 --> 00:12:20,138

I remember, I, I don't

did much performance.

295

00:12:20,138 --> 00:12:21,728

That took me years to

learn that was important.

296

00:12:21,778 --> 00:12:24,558

people are prejudging you based on

what you're wearing, your accent your

297

00:12:24,588 --> 00:12:26,688

age, your gender, how you present.

298

00:12:27,118 --> 00:12:30,268

you should either confound

that expectation by being

299

00:12:30,298 --> 00:12:31,528

dazzlingly different or.

300

00:12:32,908 --> 00:12:34,648

Play jokes on what they're

expecting from you.

301

00:12:34,688 --> 00:12:37,718

I think I'm talking to Stuart Lee about

this, and Stuart is a brilliant standup,

302

00:12:37,868 --> 00:12:41,828

voted one of the best, but it took him

years to work out what the clown was,

303

00:12:41,978 --> 00:12:43,268

and he's still playing with that now.

304

00:12:43,268 --> 00:12:45,958

I think he's got the persona now

as this sort of professor of comedy

305

00:12:45,958 --> 00:12:47,398

with this disdain for his audience.

306

00:12:47,728 --> 00:12:50,578

But that's a new persona he

put on about 10, 15 years ago.

307

00:12:50,848 --> 00:12:53,818

Before that, he was a cool rock

and roll guy, and now he's this

308

00:12:53,818 --> 00:12:56,548

ridiculous middle-aged guy who

thinks you should be into the fall.

309

00:12:57,298 --> 00:13:01,228

His pretensions and his own pomposity

have become part of the joke, and if you

310

00:13:01,228 --> 00:13:04,858

don't get that joke, you'll think he's

just a puffed up pretentious asshole.

311

00:13:05,008 --> 00:13:07,858

But he's not, to the best

extent, he knows that as well.

312

00:13:07,858 --> 00:13:09,928

And then he's also prepared to

be that and then subvert it.

313

00:13:10,108 --> 00:13:13,468

But the moment he realized what his joke

was, almost like the moment he put on

314

00:13:13,468 --> 00:13:16,798

a bit of weight and the suit stopped

fitting, he found a different joke, which

315

00:13:16,808 --> 00:13:17,998

he a little bit more likes of Alexi Sayle,

316

00:13:18,038 --> 00:13:19,958

he sounded like a pompous guy in a suit.

317

00:13:19,958 --> 00:13:22,858

That's too, tight and he's too

intelligent for this rubbish.

318

00:13:23,543 --> 00:13:25,103

That's certainly the guy who

was in the nineties, but it's a

319

00:13:25,103 --> 00:13:26,603

very different version of that.

320

00:13:26,633 --> 00:13:29,693

But he said it was about finding his

clown and he'd done loads of research

321

00:13:29,693 --> 00:13:32,893

into the history of clowning and then

came out and said, this is my clown.

322

00:13:33,103 --> 00:13:36,973

Most people I know who are really, really

good have done training in that world.

323

00:13:37,313 --> 00:13:38,753

lots of very cerebral people.

324

00:13:39,323 --> 00:13:42,113

The thing I find really exciting is

the number of my friends who I think

325

00:13:42,118 --> 00:13:44,728

are the good ones, and they turn

out to have trained either as clowns

326

00:13:45,148 --> 00:13:46,588

or have worked with Ken Campbell.

327

00:13:47,938 --> 00:13:48,598

Diane Morgan.

328

00:13:49,018 --> 00:13:50,608

That's someone who's trained as a clown.

329

00:13:50,758 --> 00:13:51,718

She knows what she's doing

330

00:13:53,313 --> 00:13:55,873

John: I love Headspace, Stuart

you are, mentioning names of

331

00:13:55,873 --> 00:13:58,933

people I absolutely love to watch

and love their humor as well.

332

00:13:58,933 --> 00:14:01,604

And, that whole Mandy

series she did, was just,

333

00:14:01,879 --> 00:14:02,479

Joel Morris: one of the few things

334

00:14:02,584 --> 00:14:03,154

John: such a good

335

00:14:03,289 --> 00:14:05,719

Joel Morris: one of the few things

on television that was directed.

336

00:14:06,224 --> 00:14:07,364

You need to understand what's going on.

337

00:14:07,364 --> 00:14:09,854

Before something starts, it

was directed like a comedy.

338

00:14:09,904 --> 00:14:10,804

It looked like the young ones.

339

00:14:10,804 --> 00:14:11,844

It looked like, black books.

340

00:14:11,894 --> 00:14:13,214

Very few people look at that confidence.

341

00:14:13,214 --> 00:14:15,404

She and, Michael Spicer had produced it.

342

00:14:15,704 --> 00:14:18,474

That little team, with Ben Cordell

did a brilliant job at saying from the

343

00:14:18,474 --> 00:14:21,624

very beginning, this is gonna be like

a pantomime, it's gonna be ridiculous.

344

00:14:21,684 --> 00:14:22,494

15 minutes long.

345

00:14:23,034 --> 00:14:24,234

So we can do really dark stuff.

346

00:14:24,234 --> 00:14:27,144

We can smash a baby against a

wall, and you're just gonna laugh.

347

00:14:27,174 --> 00:14:28,144

It's gonna be Punch & Judy.

348

00:14:28,524 --> 00:14:32,304

It was so silly, and yet I think

a lot of people would've gone,

349

00:14:32,484 --> 00:14:34,104

Hey, I've got a really dark show.

350

00:14:34,494 --> 00:14:35,184

But she never did that.

351

00:14:35,184 --> 00:14:36,654

She said, this is clowning, this is silly.

352

00:14:36,654 --> 00:14:40,154

it goes into dark places, but it's

so silly that you feel so safe.

353

00:14:40,344 --> 00:14:42,564

it's just what it looks like,

how she looks at the camera.

354

00:14:42,864 --> 00:14:45,204

Within seconds at the

beginning of that, you know.

355

00:14:46,239 --> 00:14:47,679

Her character, what she's gonna be like.

356

00:14:48,219 --> 00:14:50,649

It's really very cleverly like,

and you know, she's different

357

00:14:50,649 --> 00:14:51,669

than she's, when she's being Cunk.

358

00:14:52,059 --> 00:14:52,899

It's a different character.

359

00:14:53,289 --> 00:14:54,189

That's, I love that about Diane.

360

00:14:54,189 --> 00:14:56,739

She always looks the same, but she's

completely different characters

361

00:14:59,469 --> 00:15:01,974

John: Yeah, it is very

different to the Philomena Cunk

362

00:15:01,994 --> 00:15:02,504

Joel Morris: or motherland.

363

00:15:02,714 --> 00:15:02,984

Yeah.

364

00:15:03,234 --> 00:15:07,284

she's weirdly, you think of her as someone

who maybe has got a character type,

365

00:15:07,284 --> 00:15:10,004

like maybe a carry on actor, but they're

all different, they're all nuanced.

366

00:15:10,004 --> 00:15:11,324

You expect different

things of all of them.

367

00:15:11,694 --> 00:15:12,594

it's clever than you think.

368

00:15:14,259 --> 00:15:15,099

John: Yeah, definitely.

369

00:15:15,229 --> 00:15:18,889

I'm fascinated that you didn't really go

through the performance side of comedy.

370

00:15:18,889 --> 00:15:19,819

went straight into comedy

371

00:15:19,954 --> 00:15:20,644

Joel Morris: Yeah.

372

00:15:20,899 --> 00:15:24,319

John: and, what was the decision of

how you knew you wanted to do that

373

00:15:24,319 --> 00:15:26,179

Joel Morris: I come from a

different generation maybe where

374

00:15:26,179 --> 00:15:27,769

I respect performers too much.

375

00:15:27,769 --> 00:15:28,879

I thought I wouldn't be very good.

376

00:15:29,149 --> 00:15:31,189

I performed at school and I've

been in bands I'm not scared of

377

00:15:31,189 --> 00:15:33,449

getting on stage but, most people

I know who are comedy performers

378

00:15:33,449 --> 00:15:34,769

are absolutely brilliant at that.

379

00:15:34,769 --> 00:15:35,789

I thought, oh, that's a different thing.

380

00:15:35,789 --> 00:15:36,419

I'll do writing.

381

00:15:37,219 --> 00:15:38,149

I really like books.

382

00:15:38,269 --> 00:15:40,429

I really like writing

magazine stuff and book stuff.

383

00:15:40,429 --> 00:15:43,429

I love the control you get when

I come from graphic design,

384

00:15:43,429 --> 00:15:44,719

art school background as well.

385

00:15:44,719 --> 00:15:47,599

So basically I loved, same as Charlie

Brooker did, he came from magazines.

386

00:15:47,599 --> 00:15:49,664

I came from the same background

and loved the idea that you didn't

387

00:15:49,664 --> 00:15:51,224

have to pay for cameras and things.

388

00:15:51,224 --> 00:15:53,534

You could just make something, put

it up on the internet or whatever.

389

00:15:54,204 --> 00:15:55,074

you had complete control.

390

00:15:55,314 --> 00:15:59,154

I love the idea of, you

might have to ask permission.

391

00:15:59,334 --> 00:16:00,594

I've done this before, made short film.

392

00:16:00,594 --> 00:16:02,934

You have to ask permission to

use cameras and kit and crew.

393

00:16:03,564 --> 00:16:08,244

But if you do visual jokes to

paper or the internet, you've got

394

00:16:08,244 --> 00:16:10,584

the same kit as book publishers.

395

00:16:11,004 --> 00:16:11,694

As long as you've got.

396

00:16:12,344 --> 00:16:13,844

Adobe Photoshop and things.

397

00:16:13,894 --> 00:16:15,694

You've got all the industry standard kit.

398

00:16:15,724 --> 00:16:17,734

That's why I do podcasting

now, because I'm using the same

399

00:16:17,734 --> 00:16:18,784

kit they use to make radio.

400

00:16:18,784 --> 00:16:22,834

So the deal with that is, I'm not

a disadvantage by not having any

401

00:16:22,834 --> 00:16:25,414

money, whereas if I wanna make a

film, I have to go and raise the

402

00:16:25,414 --> 00:16:26,764

money first, which I'm rubbish at.

403

00:16:27,074 --> 00:16:29,774

the writing thing was being able to

say, okay, I can put something to, as

404

00:16:29,774 --> 00:16:33,074

long as I had access to a photocopier,

I used to do fanzines and things as long

405

00:16:33,074 --> 00:16:37,184

as I had access to a photocopier and a

Biro, I could make comics and comedy and

406

00:16:37,184 --> 00:16:38,954

things, and I still have that attitude.

407

00:16:38,984 --> 00:16:42,474

I think I was talking to someone about it,

saying that there's a big slug of British

408

00:16:42,474 --> 00:16:44,004

comedy that didn't come from standup.

409

00:16:44,004 --> 00:16:47,514

It came from magazines and

Fanzines and then the internet

410

00:16:47,514 --> 00:16:48,294

was very similar to that.

411

00:16:48,564 --> 00:16:51,354

So Charlie Brooker came through that,

loads of the music writer of David

412

00:16:51,354 --> 00:16:54,774

Quantick and people like that, Stuart,

Ian came through pop magazines and

413

00:16:54,774 --> 00:16:56,544

into their, smash itsy kind of voice.

414

00:16:56,904 --> 00:16:59,673

But yeah, I come from that background

That's the one that goes well, kaitlin

415

00:16:59,693 --> 00:17:03,263

Moran, people who come for their

background, you go, oh, I like to write

416

00:17:04,073 --> 00:17:06,143

and so therefore I'm not a performer.

417

00:17:06,532 --> 00:17:08,272

I had friends who were really

good actors and I wasn't as

418

00:17:08,272 --> 00:17:09,443

good as them, so I didn't do it.

419

00:17:11,643 --> 00:17:13,848

John: I guess even the

stand-ups that they write as

420

00:17:13,848 --> 00:17:14,088

well.

421

00:17:14,088 --> 00:17:15,397

You have to write your material.

422

00:17:15,397 --> 00:17:16,448

You have to put your act together.

423

00:17:16,758 --> 00:17:20,502

do you have a particular process that

you use do you give yourself prompts

424

00:17:20,502 --> 00:17:21,643

or have a brief for doing that?

425

00:17:21,693 --> 00:17:25,143

what happens in your process for

writing comedy and is it something

426

00:17:25,143 --> 00:17:25,818

you've developed over time?

427

00:17:26,278 --> 00:17:28,438

Joel Morris: It's a bit like you know

it's impossible not to make cider.

428

00:17:28,678 --> 00:17:31,108

If you leave apples for long

enough, they become alcoholic.

429

00:17:31,138 --> 00:17:34,108

You have to add stuff to it to make

apple juice, to stop it becoming booze.

430

00:17:34,378 --> 00:17:36,988

And I think if you've got a comic brain,

you're constantly processing stuff.

431

00:17:36,988 --> 00:17:38,938

It's really annoying for your

family and your neighbors.

432

00:17:39,268 --> 00:17:42,538

the input goes in, it goes through

a processor and comes out as jokes.

433

00:17:42,538 --> 00:17:43,828

It's why comedians are annoying.

434

00:17:44,948 --> 00:17:48,538

And I think that my process is just

someone has to ask me for it because

435

00:17:48,538 --> 00:17:49,528

otherwise I just do it for nothing.

436

00:17:49,528 --> 00:17:52,018

I just do it myself, which

is terrible negotiating

437

00:17:52,018 --> 00:17:53,398

position for being paid for it.

438

00:17:53,998 --> 00:17:54,868

but if I'm given a job to

439

00:17:54,988 --> 00:17:55,618

John: probably shouldn't be

440

00:17:56,068 --> 00:17:57,328

Joel Morris: yeah, it'll happen anyway.

441

00:17:57,328 --> 00:17:58,678

It'll be really annoying for you.

442

00:17:58,958 --> 00:18:01,688

'cause what I'll do is I'll sit, I

make stupid images of, I don't know,

443

00:18:02,018 --> 00:18:03,458

tin Tim, but it's the predator.

444

00:18:03,558 --> 00:18:05,238

You wake up in the morning,

it's like doing scales.

445

00:18:05,238 --> 00:18:07,473

As a musician, you warm

up by making stupid stuff.

446

00:18:07,473 --> 00:18:08,313

And I used to do that.

447

00:18:08,793 --> 00:18:09,393

So, yeah.

448

00:18:09,393 --> 00:18:14,093

my processes, you need to be asked

to do it or ask yourself to do it.

449

00:18:14,363 --> 00:18:18,053

I find that you won't make anything if you

are waiting for the right moment to do it.

450

00:18:18,743 --> 00:18:20,633

so you have to put yourself in

a position where you will do it.

451

00:18:21,218 --> 00:18:23,828

Go and sit in the cafe or

something and say, within an

452

00:18:23,828 --> 00:18:24,728

hour I have to have something.

453

00:18:25,088 --> 00:18:27,728

It's how I work for Charlie Brooker

and I always have done he'll send

454

00:18:27,728 --> 00:18:31,688

over orders for the day 'cause it's

a team, unless only 200 jokes about

455

00:18:31,688 --> 00:18:33,638

this, by about three in the afternoon.

456

00:18:33,688 --> 00:18:38,278

Loads of comedy writers work like

that and it stops you being precious.

457

00:18:38,338 --> 00:18:41,408

It stops you thinking that you've got to

be in the right mood Jokes are important.

458

00:18:41,678 --> 00:18:43,268

Jokes should be the disposable bit.

459

00:18:43,418 --> 00:18:47,138

The hard bit in comedy is set

up and structure and character.

460

00:18:47,408 --> 00:18:48,368

That's the grunt work.

461

00:18:48,428 --> 00:18:51,518

Don't throw that away, but you should

be able to bolt any jokes onto that.

462

00:18:51,938 --> 00:18:55,498

It's why a lot of people come through,

topical comedy because the idea

463

00:18:55,528 --> 00:18:59,338

there is if you can't come in the

morning into a topical comedy show

464

00:18:59,578 --> 00:19:03,238

with a bunch of prepared material,

'cause the news arrives that morning.

465

00:19:03,508 --> 00:19:07,858

So the input is constantly changing

and it's why podcasts that work on that

466

00:19:07,858 --> 00:19:11,378

format where maybe they're looking at

football or film releases or something,

467

00:19:11,558 --> 00:19:15,128

there's a constant churn of new material

and it's how social media works.

468

00:19:15,188 --> 00:19:16,118

New material in the morning.

469

00:19:16,358 --> 00:19:18,038

What's the best joke you

can think of about this?

470

00:19:19,328 --> 00:19:22,688

I think social media's taken a bit

of the shine off topical comedy

471

00:19:22,688 --> 00:19:24,098

because everyone's now doing it.

472

00:19:24,558 --> 00:19:29,118

the input should be changing,

but the process is pretty solid.

473

00:19:29,118 --> 00:19:31,848

You are flipping things over, turning

them inside out, imagining what it

474

00:19:31,848 --> 00:19:33,378

was like if this connected with that.

475

00:19:34,168 --> 00:19:37,808

you are doing pattern finding, pattern

recognition, and that's a fun game.

476

00:19:38,258 --> 00:19:40,418

That's like doing wordle in the morning.

477

00:19:40,718 --> 00:19:42,038

So your brain should be doing that anyway.

478

00:19:42,048 --> 00:19:42,738

It's a puzzle game.

479

00:19:42,888 --> 00:19:45,648

so you wait for the orders

and then you apply to it.

480

00:19:45,758 --> 00:19:50,708

my usual rule is I cannot imagine ever

doing these jokes until I start, as in

481

00:19:50,768 --> 00:19:52,358

someone says, right, I need 200 jokes.

482

00:19:52,358 --> 00:19:54,758

I remember doing it for,

for some show recently said,

483

00:19:54,758 --> 00:19:55,688

just fill a page with jokes.

484

00:19:55,688 --> 00:19:58,658

Well, I can't take, that's impossible,

but only when I sat down and looked at

485

00:19:58,658 --> 00:20:00,788

the blank page, I went, oh yeah, hang on.

486

00:20:00,788 --> 00:20:02,048

And then suddenly you look up

and you go, well, I've done

487

00:20:02,048 --> 00:20:03,788

200 jokes, I've done 40 jokes.

488

00:20:04,178 --> 00:20:06,488

it should seem impossible until you

start doing it and then you enter sort

489

00:20:06,488 --> 00:20:10,528

of a fu state and you can fill it up be

prepared for half of 'em to be rubbish.

490

00:20:11,458 --> 00:20:12,268

And then be prepared to,

491

00:20:12,688 --> 00:20:12,898

yeah.

492

00:20:12,898 --> 00:20:15,208

And then be prepared to send them

into someone who thinks the opposite,

493

00:20:15,208 --> 00:20:17,068

half of rubbish and, oh, come on.

494

00:20:17,368 --> 00:20:18,388

'cause it's personal.

495

00:20:21,413 --> 00:20:24,053

John: I'm very much in the

amateur stakes of comedy here

496

00:20:24,053 --> 00:20:25,973

myself, but I do enjoy doing.

497

00:20:25,973 --> 00:20:28,823

Now I've only done a few open mics,

so I thoroughly enjoy doing it,

498

00:20:29,063 --> 00:20:32,243

but my process so far seems to be

My brain waits until I'm falling

499

00:20:32,243 --> 00:20:34,433

asleep to start coming up with ideas, and

500

00:20:34,478 --> 00:20:35,378

Joel Morris: You need to be distracted.

501

00:20:35,428 --> 00:20:35,638

John: and I

502

00:20:35,688 --> 00:20:37,488

Joel Morris: you need, it's like an

hitchhiker's where you're, the only

503

00:20:37,488 --> 00:20:40,738

way to fly is to throw so at the

ground and miss, I think that the

504

00:20:40,738 --> 00:20:42,538

feeling of going, I can't do this.

505

00:20:42,938 --> 00:20:43,598

I'll do it very often.

506

00:20:43,598 --> 00:20:44,788

I'll get a very specific brief.

507

00:20:44,788 --> 00:20:45,629

I've been doing some stuff for.

508

00:20:46,963 --> 00:20:49,603

Greenpeace and climate's changed stuff and

it's, there's some really hard, you get

509

00:20:49,603 --> 00:20:51,193

this document full of really hard science.

510

00:20:51,193 --> 00:20:52,843

They think of some jokes

about this, and you go, what?

511

00:20:52,843 --> 00:20:56,938

I can't do a, it's bleak and oh

well, the scientific data, stare

512

00:20:56,938 --> 00:20:59,488

at it for a minute and it starts

to swim in front of your eyes.

513

00:20:59,878 --> 00:21:02,598

I used to do, a thing called the

Family Examiner, which is a spoof

514

00:21:02,928 --> 00:21:05,298

local newspaper, and that was done

just by staring at the newspaper

515

00:21:05,298 --> 00:21:06,888

until your eyes went outta focus.

516

00:21:07,458 --> 00:21:10,398

And then you'd misread it and then

you'd go, oh, there's the joke.

517

00:21:10,398 --> 00:21:14,688

I like stuff Cunk jokes about is you

stare at the history book until I

518

00:21:14,688 --> 00:21:17,808

start to swim in front of your face

and you see it the wrong way round.

519

00:21:17,808 --> 00:21:19,958

And then you go, oh, there's a joke there.

520

00:21:20,088 --> 00:21:22,938

that the audience can decode 'cause

they know what the source material was.

521

00:21:23,418 --> 00:21:24,828

We wanted to do things with the Aztecs

522

00:21:24,878 --> 00:21:28,208

We wanted to show the taste of the whole

world, but people don't know what the

523

00:21:28,208 --> 00:21:32,418

jokes are about unless you grew up with

that stuff at school, The educational

524

00:21:32,418 --> 00:21:35,928

syllabus is very different now than it was

when I was at school, but it was really

525

00:21:35,928 --> 00:21:42,168

hard to try and get stuff in about history

that needed to be told like Chinese

526

00:21:42,168 --> 00:21:44,958

dynasties because it's a global world now

527

00:21:45,138 --> 00:21:46,878

Britain has learned about them at school.

528

00:21:47,088 --> 00:21:49,718

So you do a joke and it took

so long to set the joke up

529

00:21:49,718 --> 00:21:51,398

that people were drifting off.

530

00:21:51,638 --> 00:21:53,978

I loved in horrible histories where the

rat would come out at the beginning,

531

00:21:53,978 --> 00:21:57,338

explain what the joke was about to

kids, and then they'd do the joke.

532

00:21:57,728 --> 00:21:57,848

You know?

533

00:21:57,848 --> 00:21:58,628

That's lovely.

534

00:21:58,628 --> 00:22:00,998

That's the equivalent of a

news story existing before you

535

00:22:00,998 --> 00:22:03,063

do the caption competition.

536

00:22:03,063 --> 00:22:05,343

in Have I Got News, the

audience are briefed.

537

00:22:05,343 --> 00:22:07,713

One of the great things about

Topical is the audience are assumed

538

00:22:08,253 --> 00:22:09,573

to know what the joke's about.

539

00:22:09,643 --> 00:22:13,403

one of the things that's gone wrong

with comedy these days, is that no

540

00:22:13,403 --> 00:22:17,243

one watches the news enough and no

one watches the news in any depth,

541

00:22:17,783 --> 00:22:20,638

and that there are two separate news

feeds going on depending on which side

542

00:22:20,783 --> 00:22:22,493

of the culture war you're on today.

543

00:22:22,793 --> 00:22:26,303

So you can't assume the audience

all think the same thing, even when

544

00:22:26,303 --> 00:22:29,513

they were right and left divided

or whatever, people broadly.

545

00:22:29,963 --> 00:22:32,183

Accepted that we were

a war in the Falklands.

546

00:22:32,633 --> 00:22:33,983

They didn't go, no, we are not.

547

00:22:35,343 --> 00:22:37,743

it's really hard now, I think, and people

go, why can't we have Spiting image back?

548

00:22:37,743 --> 00:22:40,173

And you went, well, people agreed

on the news back in the day.

549

00:22:41,378 --> 00:22:42,373

John: They did try and bring it back.

550

00:22:42,423 --> 00:22:44,553

Don't think particularly

successfully, but they did.

551

00:22:44,553 --> 00:22:44,943

Joel Morris: I've been

552

00:22:44,943 --> 00:22:45,928

John: interesting, but I love what.

553

00:22:46,108 --> 00:22:47,188

Joel Morris: failed versions of that.

554

00:22:48,172 --> 00:22:51,182

John: Philomena Cunk was a

very unexpected, but welcome

555

00:22:51,182 --> 00:22:52,712

breakaway from, screen wipe.

556

00:22:52,727 --> 00:22:53,017

Joel Morris: Yeah.

557

00:22:53,072 --> 00:22:53,532

John: is that right?

558

00:22:54,022 --> 00:22:56,077

Joel Morris: it came from, we

had some talking heads on Screen

559

00:22:56,077 --> 00:22:57,637

Wipe and Diane was just great.

560

00:22:57,982 --> 00:23:00,082

And then we thought we were gonna

do a sitcom with her, like Alan

561

00:23:00,082 --> 00:23:01,792

Partridge first, and no one wanted it.

562

00:23:02,342 --> 00:23:05,192

and then we tried to mock doc

with her and no one wanted that.

563

00:23:05,252 --> 00:23:07,172

And they basically, we were

going, this isn't gonna work.

564

00:23:07,382 --> 00:23:10,832

And then Shakespeare was dead for 400

years and we said, what if she goes

565

00:23:10,832 --> 00:23:12,062

and does a thing about Shakespeare?

566

00:23:12,312 --> 00:23:15,132

no one could agree whether she

was funny, but they could agree

567

00:23:15,132 --> 00:23:16,062

that Shakespeare was dead.

568

00:23:16,492 --> 00:23:19,282

it was hard to argue against making

that, and broke the barrier down.

569

00:23:19,502 --> 00:23:22,572

yeah, we'd done her as a sort of

slightly longer form things in white

570

00:23:22,572 --> 00:23:23,922

with like five minute sketches.

571

00:23:24,402 --> 00:23:28,382

but I think she sustains, I think

we did the best part of 70 or 80

572

00:23:28,387 --> 00:23:31,082

minutes this last Christmas, which

we were all convinced wouldn't work.

573

00:23:31,082 --> 00:23:35,162

And actually it's silly enough

to carry for nearly, not quite

574

00:23:35,162 --> 00:23:36,542

for a film, but nearly enough.

575

00:23:36,542 --> 00:23:38,952

John: everything I learned about

interviewing was from Philomena Cunk.

576

00:23:38,972 --> 00:23:40,322

I mean, do you have, a

577

00:23:40,322 --> 00:23:41,972

favorite person to write for?

578

00:23:42,272 --> 00:23:44,392

And if you do, can you say who it is?

579

00:23:44,409 --> 00:23:44,582

is

580

00:23:44,682 --> 00:23:45,312

Joel Morris: do you know what?

581

00:23:45,312 --> 00:23:48,222

I'm in a really lovely position

as in everyone I work with now is?

582

00:23:48,222 --> 00:23:48,942

really nice.

583

00:23:49,012 --> 00:23:51,022

you go through a period when

you are younger, where you

584

00:23:51,022 --> 00:23:52,312

are working for anybody.

585

00:23:52,502 --> 00:23:53,822

most people I've worked

for are really nice.

586

00:23:53,872 --> 00:23:57,262

you end up working in particular

categories of people or making a

587

00:23:57,262 --> 00:23:58,822

joke once bumping into Jed Pass

588

00:23:58,822 --> 00:24:01,942

We've got news in a corridor and

I said, we don't normally meet.

589

00:24:02,312 --> 00:24:05,672

I work in a sideways look at the world

and we like different departments.

590

00:24:05,672 --> 00:24:06,602

You do crossover.

591

00:24:06,882 --> 00:24:09,492

but yeah, I, most of the people I've

work with are really, really nice.

592

00:24:09,492 --> 00:24:09,972

It's very nice.

593

00:24:09,972 --> 00:24:12,372

People say who's nice in

showbiz and the answer is?

594

00:24:12,372 --> 00:24:13,242

most of the people I work for.

595

00:24:13,272 --> 00:24:14,442

But I love writing for Charlie.

596

00:24:14,492 --> 00:24:16,262

I've known Charlie since I

was in my early twenties.

597

00:24:16,752 --> 00:24:17,682

I didn't write for him for ages.

598

00:24:17,682 --> 00:24:18,402

We just knew each other.

599

00:24:18,402 --> 00:24:19,122

We were just mates.

600

00:24:19,152 --> 00:24:20,442

so that was really nice

when that came off.

601

00:24:20,922 --> 00:24:21,132

Yeah.

602

00:24:21,132 --> 00:24:22,212

But probably didn't

start writing together.

603

00:24:22,212 --> 00:24:24,432

So yeah, probably about

15, 20 years later.

604

00:24:24,942 --> 00:24:28,032

But we knew we got on, we covered

similar backgrounds, similar voices

605

00:24:28,192 --> 00:24:31,612

And he'd try various other writers

to work with and they couldn't quite.

606

00:24:31,662 --> 00:24:33,132

work the ventriloquist puppet.

607

00:24:33,562 --> 00:24:35,992

and the year he was launching Black

Mirror, if you ever saw Charlie

608

00:24:35,992 --> 00:24:39,142

doing comedy for about a year and

a bit, that was just verbatim.

609

00:24:39,532 --> 00:24:40,462

We were writing for him.

610

00:24:40,462 --> 00:24:42,862

He didn't have to write anything,

he could just stand up and read

611

00:24:42,862 --> 00:24:43,762

it 'cause he was so knackered.

612

00:24:44,282 --> 00:24:46,232

nowadays he's got a bit more time.

613

00:24:46,232 --> 00:24:47,342

So basically it's more of a collaboration.

614

00:24:47,342 --> 00:24:50,672

But there were a couple of years where we

just wrote everything and no one noticed.

615

00:24:51,112 --> 00:24:51,652

which is nice.

616

00:24:51,712 --> 00:24:54,702

But we like video games and robocop,

it's the same sort of people.

617

00:24:54,992 --> 00:24:55,757

so Charlie's Very easy.

618

00:24:55,917 --> 00:24:58,227

I love, I haven't worked

anywhere near enough with them.

619

00:24:58,537 --> 00:25:01,897

Their friends, the ghost slot, the

horrible history slot are lovely.

620

00:25:02,297 --> 00:25:05,727

I've worked a few times with them on

things, and that's like working with Monty

621

00:25:05,777 --> 00:25:07,787

Python because they're all performers.

622

00:25:07,857 --> 00:25:10,687

you throw a joke out and just

start throwing jokes backwards and

623

00:25:10,687 --> 00:25:11,617

forwards and it's just brilliant.

624

00:25:11,617 --> 00:25:12,277

So they're, they're lovely.

625

00:25:12,277 --> 00:25:13,447

I'd love to work with them more.

626

00:25:13,817 --> 00:25:15,322

I'll happily do anything with those guys.

627

00:25:15,917 --> 00:25:16,637

but it's really weird now

628

00:25:16,637 --> 00:25:16,757

they're

629

00:25:17,069 --> 00:25:17,639

John: to be good.

630

00:25:17,689 --> 00:25:20,689

this is related to someone who

maybe isn't or isn't thought

631

00:25:20,689 --> 00:25:21,589

of that being very lovely.

632

00:25:21,589 --> 00:25:24,139

But I did one time, and don't ask me why

I did this because I still don't really

633

00:25:24,139 --> 00:25:26,179

know, but I did one time audition for the

634

00:25:26,179 --> 00:25:26,659

Apprentice.

635

00:25:27,409 --> 00:25:31,569

And, I dunno why I was thinking,

but I thought it might be fun and

636

00:25:31,599 --> 00:25:33,229

it was unsuccessful, thankfully.

637

00:25:33,559 --> 00:25:37,259

But whilst I was there, I was chatting

with, a lady who was also auditioning,

638

00:25:37,259 --> 00:25:41,019

but she also worked in, BBC production

who was saying that the BBC really

639

00:25:41,019 --> 00:25:44,139

struggled to get comedy and that

you've already said about that.

640

00:25:44,179 --> 00:25:48,204

Distance between viewpoints

or the agreement on reality is

641

00:25:48,204 --> 00:25:49,254

a problem do you think That's

642

00:25:49,254 --> 00:25:51,604

why, they're really

struggling to get more comedy

643

00:25:51,604 --> 00:25:52,389

on the BBC?

644

00:25:53,530 --> 00:25:55,270

Joel Morris: it's a real

problem at the moment.

645

00:25:55,270 --> 00:26:00,170

Ofcom have named it for six, seven years

running now as an art forming crisis there

646

00:26:00,170 --> 00:26:02,890

are loads of very complicated reasons,

some of which you find out as you're

647

00:26:02,890 --> 00:26:06,722

doing it I think that comedy at its best.

648

00:26:06,955 --> 00:26:07,555

there is comedy.

649

00:26:07,555 --> 00:26:12,145

Everyone gets, there's not much

of it and it's probably like

650

00:26:12,175 --> 00:26:13,495

Laurel and Hardy or something.

651

00:26:13,645 --> 00:26:18,775

Wallace and Grommet pretty broad

and it works and it's excellent, but

652

00:26:18,775 --> 00:26:20,875

most comedy is more niche than that.

653

00:26:21,185 --> 00:26:27,875

the big problem with comedy is unlike

if you want to watch drama or a

654

00:26:27,875 --> 00:26:32,240

vote off show like The Apprentice

There's not really much required

655

00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,550

of you to get it at the beginning.

656

00:26:34,550 --> 00:26:36,500

It says there's a dead body and

the policeman wants to find out

657

00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:37,460

who did it, and you go, good.

658

00:26:37,460 --> 00:26:37,970

Oh, so do I.

659

00:26:38,690 --> 00:26:42,080

And then you're in and you can watch

pretty bad police procedural and

660

00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:43,490

still get quite a lot out of it.

661

00:26:43,670 --> 00:26:45,921

You might get the end and go, that was a

pretty cheesy one, but I still enjoy it.

662

00:26:46,100 --> 00:26:49,580

If you watch a comedy and you don't get it

straight away, you go, that's not comedy.

663

00:26:50,270 --> 00:26:51,830

It stops being itself.

664

00:26:51,860 --> 00:26:55,790

If you do comedy badly, it's not that

it becomes boring comedy, it just stops

665

00:26:55,790 --> 00:26:59,600

being, when people say, that's not funny,

what they mean is, I don't find it funny.

666

00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,600

But it stops being its own art form.

667

00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,150

it's not, people say that's not art.

668

00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,080

Anything you're intending to make people

laugh, really, you don't get to, the

669

00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,590

audience doesn't get to decide whether

it's comedy or not, even though it's

670

00:27:10,590 --> 00:27:13,890

got a visceral reaction because comedy,

you'll know this from doing live stuff.

671

00:27:13,890 --> 00:27:16,920

Comedy that dies in front of one

audience will fly in front of another.

672

00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,570

the problem with comedy is that

whereas most television forms.

673

00:27:20,975 --> 00:27:23,135

Now a pretty much a cluster bomb.

674

00:27:23,675 --> 00:27:25,415

It goes off and it hits everyone.

675

00:27:25,415 --> 00:27:26,765

It's like dropping a bomb from a plane.

676

00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,750

it flattens everybody, everyone goes,

I agree, the Antiques Roadshow is great

677

00:27:30,750 --> 00:27:34,860

Sunday night telly, or the traitors is

great, whereas comedy's like a sniper

678

00:27:34,860 --> 00:27:39,270

bullet and it, it hits you either exactly

on the funny bone or it misses completely.

679

00:27:39,660 --> 00:27:40,680

So it's a big risk.

680

00:27:41,270 --> 00:27:44,660

and what's happened with comedy recently,

which is a genuine technical thing that I

681

00:27:44,660 --> 00:27:48,830

only found out this year trying to pitch

some sitcoms because I hadn't done any

682

00:27:48,830 --> 00:27:50,060

for ages and someone said, come do some.

683

00:27:50,330 --> 00:27:54,410

So I was pitching some sitcoms and

finding out that there is a tax break

684

00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,930

in the UK for high end television.

685

00:27:57,410 --> 00:28:01,220

So, so that to attract over the Andor

crew and Game The Thrones to come and

686

00:28:01,220 --> 00:28:06,390

make stuff in in the Uk and it's set at

something like half a million, a million

687

00:28:06,390 --> 00:28:08,430

an hour, and you get huge tax breaks.

688

00:28:08,430 --> 00:28:10,530

So if you're making a program,

one of the episodes is free.

689

00:28:10,530 --> 00:28:11,360

you get the tax money back.

690

00:28:12,230 --> 00:28:16,640

Comedy used to cost about

250 to 350,000 a half hour.

691

00:28:17,315 --> 00:28:18,995

So it's incredibly expensive to make.

692

00:28:18,995 --> 00:28:21,995

So what they've done is they've

started making comedy more expensive.

693

00:28:21,995 --> 00:28:23,285

So it becomes comedy drama.

694

00:28:23,585 --> 00:28:25,205

Much bigger stars, bigger actors.

695

00:28:25,205 --> 00:28:28,385

Bigger crews cost about

half a million an episode.

696

00:28:28,385 --> 00:28:31,445

I know this Inside Number Nine

used to cost 350 k now cost 500 K.

697

00:28:31,805 --> 00:28:33,515

So they make less of it because

they haven't got enough money.

698

00:28:33,815 --> 00:28:37,475

So they have fewer programs going out,

and that means people will find it

699

00:28:37,475 --> 00:28:39,035

harder to find things to find funny.

700

00:28:39,305 --> 00:28:42,515

What used to happen is they made quite a

lot of comedy 'cause it was really cheap.

701

00:28:43,175 --> 00:28:44,075

You could make two a day.

702

00:28:44,075 --> 00:28:47,605

It was just put a hat on and that was a

sketch show Now it looks great, it's more

703

00:28:47,605 --> 00:28:53,275

expensive, it requires a lot of backing to

make it at the level of a Game of Thrones.

704

00:28:53,695 --> 00:28:55,405

And foreign investors won't invest in you.

705

00:28:55,705 --> 00:28:58,545

So basically you can't do A split

program with American Telli, which

706

00:28:58,545 --> 00:29:03,175

is really weird 'cause our comedy is

legendary world class and world renowned.

707

00:29:03,175 --> 00:29:04,485

I've been to Golden Rose events.

708

00:29:04,485 --> 00:29:05,535

Everyone respects your comedy.

709

00:29:05,535 --> 00:29:06,195

Take Cunk there.

710

00:29:06,245 --> 00:29:06,935

they all get it.

711

00:29:07,385 --> 00:29:09,245

Comedy does travel more than you think.

712

00:29:09,325 --> 00:29:12,075

Cunk's done very, very well

internationally, for Netflix who

713

00:29:12,165 --> 00:29:13,185

would not investing in comedy.

714

00:29:13,185 --> 00:29:15,285

They now are because

it's done well for them.

715

00:29:15,885 --> 00:29:16,875

But there's a timidity about it.

716

00:29:16,875 --> 00:29:21,285

And also now, because it's

expensive to make, same crews,

717

00:29:21,495 --> 00:29:23,895

same actors, same writers.

718

00:29:23,895 --> 00:29:29,085

So it could be Jesse or someone Charlie,

do drama and get paid really, really well.

719

00:29:29,355 --> 00:29:30,375

Why would they come back

720

00:29:30,375 --> 00:29:31,365

for a huge pay cut.

721

00:29:31,815 --> 00:29:35,085

And struggle through making a half

hour comedy that within 10 minutes

722

00:29:35,085 --> 00:29:35,805

everyone's gonna go, this is

723

00:29:35,814 --> 00:29:36,834

John: art, Joel, for The

724

00:29:36,894 --> 00:29:37,114

art.

725

00:29:37,695 --> 00:29:39,045

Joel Morris: Now that's where I come in.

726

00:29:39,145 --> 00:29:41,225

I think what's gonna happen is that

we're about to go through a bit of a

727

00:29:41,225 --> 00:29:46,095

rejig, in filmmaking and TV making that

massive mega budget thing is gonna become.

728

00:29:46,845 --> 00:29:50,085

A bit harder to do and they're

gonna be looking for cheap stuff.

729

00:29:50,085 --> 00:29:52,155

I hope that when they look for

cheap stuff, they remember comedy.

730

00:29:52,345 --> 00:29:55,405

if they can budget comedy in

like Mandy's in 15 minute chunks

731

00:29:55,825 --> 00:29:58,175

or make it local, it's tribal.

732

00:29:58,365 --> 00:30:02,475

comedy is where you depict

your nation, your people, your

733

00:30:02,475 --> 00:30:04,280

beliefs, your class, your gender.

734

00:30:04,785 --> 00:30:07,215

It's the one place where when

they went, let's do diversity.

735

00:30:07,215 --> 00:30:09,975

Everyone went, well, we'll have a

comedy that's set here or whatever.

736

00:30:10,025 --> 00:30:11,675

that happened way more

than it did in drama.

737

00:30:12,215 --> 00:30:14,375

There was a comedy for everybody,

for every little group.

738

00:30:14,375 --> 00:30:18,825

you need to make an awful lot of it

because otherwise you are, at risk

739

00:30:19,625 --> 00:30:22,535

As has happened this year where they

announced the new, BBC comedies, and

740

00:30:22,535 --> 00:30:23,375

they go, well, there are only six of 'em.

741

00:30:23,375 --> 00:30:24,125

They're all white men.

742

00:30:24,125 --> 00:30:26,855

And you went, yeah, but if you did all

six of 'em, they were all Asian men.

743

00:30:26,855 --> 00:30:27,755

It would also be wrong.

744

00:30:28,085 --> 00:30:30,859

It needs to be loads of different

voices, because everyone

745

00:30:30,859 --> 00:30:31,909

will find their own favorite.

746

00:30:31,949 --> 00:30:34,469

my example is I adore Silicon Valley.

747

00:30:34,619 --> 00:30:38,009

I think Silicon Valley's one of my

favorite comedy shows, and I can't

748

00:30:38,009 --> 00:30:41,919

Stand Big Bang Theory to anyone

outside comedy, they're the same show.

749

00:30:42,729 --> 00:30:43,779

They're about the same thing.

750

00:30:43,929 --> 00:30:45,249

Why do I like one and not the other?

751

00:30:45,309 --> 00:30:48,309

Because one of them is a tiny bit

more bitter than the other one.

752

00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:52,599

One's warm and I like one, and I can't

see what the appeal is of the other.

753

00:30:53,019 --> 00:30:54,519

I know they're both really good shows.

754

00:30:54,759 --> 00:30:55,299

So that's just me.

755

00:30:55,299 --> 00:30:56,049

That's my prejudice.

756

00:30:56,149 --> 00:30:58,279

They're both funny, but I

like one and I hate the other.

757

00:30:58,279 --> 00:31:00,509

And they're almost identical because with

758

00:31:00,509 --> 00:31:01,109

crime,

759

00:31:01,709 --> 00:31:03,689

you like Line of Duty

and you like Endeavor.

760

00:31:03,694 --> 00:31:04,864

the same drama.

761

00:31:05,074 --> 00:31:05,794

It's the same, isn't it?

762

00:31:06,778 --> 00:31:09,328

John: It always seems that comedy is

one of the things people are hungriest

763

00:31:09,328 --> 00:31:10,718

for and want more of.

764

00:31:10,768 --> 00:31:12,113

but it sounds like, well, I agree.

765

00:31:12,113 --> 00:31:13,633

I hope things do shift, towards

766

00:31:13,654 --> 00:31:13,924

Joel Morris: I think they

767

00:31:13,933 --> 00:31:17,518

John: comedy because it seems that,

most of the stuff these days is

768

00:31:17,518 --> 00:31:22,418

more or less comedy panel shows

TV comedy these days, it seems.

769

00:31:23,309 --> 00:31:23,549

Joel Morris: Yeah.

770

00:31:23,549 --> 00:31:25,799

I mean, it's an absolute nightmare

for people like me who write,

771

00:31:25,959 --> 00:31:27,844

because you can get a job on those.

772

00:31:27,844 --> 00:31:30,244

There are writers on it and

there are very, very good writers

773

00:31:30,244 --> 00:31:32,554

on it, and there are very good

showcase for those comedians.

774

00:31:32,554 --> 00:31:36,154

But I think as well, it does lead to a lot

of people who, if you look at someone like

775

00:31:36,154 --> 00:31:39,634

Rob Brydon and you realize that he made

human remains Julia Davis, one of the best

776

00:31:39,634 --> 00:31:42,454

written, dark character comedies ever.

777

00:31:42,934 --> 00:31:44,074

But there's no reason for him to do that.

778

00:31:44,104 --> 00:31:46,585

'cause he can do I to So you go,

well, how many human remains did

779

00:31:46,585 --> 00:31:50,235

we lose from Rob who is a terrific

character comedian, terrific writer.

780

00:31:50,835 --> 00:31:51,765

But why does he need to?

781

00:31:51,765 --> 00:31:54,375

Because he can do panel games and he

can be very funny on those panel games.

782

00:31:54,525 --> 00:31:56,325

I mean, there is no one who

could do, would I you better

783

00:31:56,325 --> 00:31:57,285

than Rob in that position?

784

00:31:57,405 --> 00:31:58,035

He's brilliant.

785

00:31:58,575 --> 00:32:01,905

But part of me goes, I think

I'd have liked to have five

786

00:32:01,905 --> 00:32:03,945

more drama, but they're hard.

787

00:32:04,345 --> 00:32:05,275

it's agents as well.

788

00:32:05,525 --> 00:32:07,260

they love to book a raft of people.

789

00:32:07,260 --> 00:32:08,070

it's agent power.

790

00:32:09,004 --> 00:32:10,024

John: I'm sure there's a lot of that.

791

00:32:11,419 --> 00:32:13,589

And this may be a slightly

unfair question, but I hope

792

00:32:13,589 --> 00:32:14,369

you'll do your best with it.

793

00:32:14,819 --> 00:32:18,629

in your book you say that the three

main elements, of creative comedy

794

00:32:18,629 --> 00:32:20,939

are construct, confirm, and confound

795

00:32:21,685 --> 00:32:21,975

Joel Morris: Yeah.

796

00:32:22,569 --> 00:32:26,409

John: can you explain a bit about those,

and what they need and how they work.

797

00:32:27,330 --> 00:32:28,050

Joel Morris: I can do it quickly.

798

00:32:28,050 --> 00:32:28,650

the most important

799

00:32:28,650 --> 00:32:31,200

thing is if you're trying to tell jokes,

it's realizing what you are doing.

800

00:32:32,030 --> 00:32:34,005

in any communications

medium, you'll know this.

801

00:32:34,005 --> 00:32:34,815

There are things you're trying to do.

802

00:32:34,815 --> 00:32:37,415

You're trying to set up your

aim and summaries like doing

803

00:32:37,415 --> 00:32:40,505

a scientific experiment, aim

apparatus, method, conclusions.

804

00:32:41,610 --> 00:32:44,555

you're trying to communicate ideas in

someone else's head so they can join you.

805

00:32:44,555 --> 00:32:45,755

So you can share the joke with the class.

806

00:32:45,755 --> 00:32:48,155

The craft of a joke is

something's tickled you.

807

00:32:48,455 --> 00:32:52,025

What's the best way of getting how

you felt when you thought that was

808

00:32:52,025 --> 00:32:53,345

funny into someone else's head?

809

00:32:53,345 --> 00:32:54,305

So they feel the same way.

810

00:32:55,655 --> 00:32:58,285

and there are three things you can do

with any piece of comic information.

811

00:32:58,285 --> 00:33:02,335

You making a joke, either constructs,

confirms, or confounds, because

812

00:33:02,335 --> 00:33:03,715

we're pattern finding creatures.

813

00:33:04,075 --> 00:33:06,415

The construct beat says

man goes into a doctor.

814

00:33:07,105 --> 00:33:07,735

That's where we are.

815

00:33:07,735 --> 00:33:08,305

We're in a doctors.

816

00:33:08,305 --> 00:33:09,655

You know what to expect from a doctors.

817

00:33:09,835 --> 00:33:11,035

You know what people are asking doctors.

818

00:33:11,035 --> 00:33:11,985

So that's constructing.

819

00:33:12,135 --> 00:33:16,095

So you've built the set and then

confirm is the next thing you do,

820

00:33:16,095 --> 00:33:18,765

which is usually to say, and something

happened to the doctors that you

821

00:33:18,765 --> 00:33:20,140

expect to happen in a doctor's.

822

00:33:20,325 --> 00:33:23,385

So a man comes in and says, can you

gimme something for this terrible wind?

823

00:33:23,805 --> 00:33:27,795

And then the joke part, which people think

of the joke is the confound, which takes

824

00:33:27,795 --> 00:33:29,625

all that data and turns left unexpectedly.

825

00:33:29,775 --> 00:33:32,535

And the last beat there would be,

and the doctor gave him a kite.

826

00:33:33,345 --> 00:33:35,115

So you go, can you gimme

something for this terrible wind?

827

00:33:35,475 --> 00:33:36,435

It's like, I'm in the doctor's.

828

00:33:36,555 --> 00:33:37,605

Can you gimme something for terrible wind?

829

00:33:37,785 --> 00:33:38,985

Gave me a kite construct.

830

00:33:39,075 --> 00:33:41,385

Doctors confirm something's wrong with me.

831

00:33:41,775 --> 00:33:42,735

Confound, twist.

832

00:33:44,085 --> 00:33:46,725

problem comes where that

last beat doesn't confound.

833

00:33:46,725 --> 00:33:47,625

It confuses.

834

00:33:47,895 --> 00:33:51,795

And I think that's the craft that

comedy writers learn to distinguish

835

00:33:51,795 --> 00:33:55,245

between is something that just

leaps off into a mad corner,

836

00:33:55,585 --> 00:33:58,825

'cause we can do surreal comedy or

something that naturally follows.

837

00:33:59,165 --> 00:34:02,225

when you talk to neuroscientists and

neurologists about what the human

838

00:34:02,225 --> 00:34:06,285

brain is doing, when it's analyzing

patterns, information, it goes

839

00:34:06,285 --> 00:34:09,014

forwards through the data and goes,

that happens then, oh, that happens.

840

00:34:09,014 --> 00:34:09,795

That makes sense.

841

00:34:10,094 --> 00:34:12,405

When something doesn't

make sense, it rewinds.

842

00:34:12,405 --> 00:34:15,014

Goes back and checks, does an error check.

843

00:34:15,475 --> 00:34:18,864

if the error check comes up that it

makes no sense, it goes, oh, not funny.

844

00:34:19,344 --> 00:34:22,225

If the error check comes back

and says, it does make sense.

845

00:34:22,225 --> 00:34:23,935

I was just looking at it the wrong way.

846

00:34:24,324 --> 00:34:26,755

I didn't think that's what wind meant.

847

00:34:27,114 --> 00:34:29,844

Then it goes, oh, oh, I enjoyed that game.

848

00:34:30,114 --> 00:34:31,375

Maybe I look at things the wrong way.

849

00:34:31,375 --> 00:34:33,985

It's incredibly good for training

your brain to be flexible.

850

00:34:34,405 --> 00:34:36,985

So the game you're playing with people

is a little like peepo with a baby.

851

00:34:36,985 --> 00:34:40,645

You're playing a game where you

surprise them but you don't pull your

852

00:34:40,645 --> 00:34:42,025

face back and it's something else.

853

00:34:42,025 --> 00:34:43,105

people have to know what's coming.

854

00:34:43,105 --> 00:34:46,824

I said this to someone this week that

the art of comedy is to do the expected

855

00:34:46,824 --> 00:34:51,324

and still have people surprised,

which is if you think of every clown

856

00:34:51,324 --> 00:34:53,784

you've ever seen, they're doing the

expected and you still are surprised.

857

00:34:54,235 --> 00:34:58,645

So that last ta-da has to be a

surprise, but it doesn't work

858

00:34:58,645 --> 00:34:59,635

without the first two beats.

859

00:34:59,935 --> 00:35:03,205

And the craft, I think always is, you

think of a good pun in the morning,

860

00:35:03,385 --> 00:35:04,405

I do it when I'm on social media.

861

00:35:04,455 --> 00:35:07,665

99% of the work putting this out

there is making sure the first

862

00:35:07,665 --> 00:35:12,465

two lines of the tweet or the

skeet set up where we are going.

863

00:35:12,465 --> 00:35:15,825

So that last panel or that last

silly joke or that last gag about

864

00:35:15,825 --> 00:35:18,895

the news you are in the same place

I was when I thought it was funny.

865

00:35:19,190 --> 00:35:20,360

it's just sharing the joke with the class.

866

00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,910

construct and confirm are

the unglamorous, unsexy, non

867

00:35:23,910 --> 00:35:24,540

joke bits.

868

00:35:24,540 --> 00:35:27,060

But weirdly, they're the

foundation on which the joke works.

869

00:35:27,889 --> 00:35:28,399

John: Very cool.

870

00:35:29,119 --> 00:35:29,989

Joel Morris: That's shorter than the book.

871

00:35:29,989 --> 00:35:30,979

I should have just done that.

872

00:35:31,327 --> 00:35:31,567

John: You could

873

00:35:31,617 --> 00:35:32,337

Joel Morris: to the whole audio

874

00:35:32,337 --> 00:35:32,817

book?

875

00:35:32,895 --> 00:35:33,645

John: a little mini

876

00:35:33,645 --> 00:35:34,125

Christmas

877

00:35:34,125 --> 00:35:34,755

version or

878

00:35:34,755 --> 00:35:35,235

something,

879

00:35:35,277 --> 00:35:35,727

Joel Morris: yeah.

880

00:35:35,777 --> 00:35:39,497

I think the ultimate lesson from it is

that so much work goes into the setup

881

00:35:40,347 --> 00:35:42,477

that the joke is kind of optional.

882

00:35:43,017 --> 00:35:44,997

You can put anything in there

if the setup's good enough.

883

00:35:45,097 --> 00:35:48,097

in character comedy the characters

are so good, you can throw anything

884

00:35:48,097 --> 00:35:49,147

at them and it'll be funny.

885

00:35:49,537 --> 00:35:53,402

So I think it's one of those things where

people say, oh, I have to make this joke.

886

00:35:53,402 --> 00:35:54,482

It is brilliant.

887

00:35:54,482 --> 00:35:57,032

it can't come out the script

you always get it can 'cause

888

00:35:57,032 --> 00:35:58,472

the setup was the hard work.

889

00:35:58,802 --> 00:36:02,282

the joke, you lose a lot of favorite

jokes 'cause you can't get the setup right

890

00:36:03,430 --> 00:36:06,640

John: is there any advice you can give

to anyone who's trying to put some

891

00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:07,780

humor or jokes maybe

892

00:36:07,780 --> 00:36:09,575

into a best man's speech, a presentation.

893

00:36:10,727 --> 00:36:13,397

Joel Morris: I think you can do,

it's really funny when you read

894

00:36:13,397 --> 00:36:16,637

on the page, this is a really

complicated lesson to learn.

895

00:36:17,117 --> 00:36:19,367

I'm not quite good at jokes,

so I put jokes into things.

896

00:36:20,267 --> 00:36:23,477

People don't laugh at

jokes as much as you think.

897

00:36:24,467 --> 00:36:27,617

They laugh at playing the game

of guessing what comes next.

898

00:36:28,037 --> 00:36:30,927

So there's lots of shows you might

watch on TV or stand up routines and

899

00:36:30,927 --> 00:36:32,757

you go, there aren't any jokes in this.

900

00:36:32,787 --> 00:36:36,927

80% of laughter is social rather

than triggered by joke prompts.

901

00:36:37,197 --> 00:36:38,847

It's you knowing your friends.

902

00:36:39,117 --> 00:36:41,457

You laugh when your friends are

like your friends, when they're

903

00:36:41,457 --> 00:36:44,037

typical, when they're reminding

you of your shared values.

904

00:36:44,277 --> 00:36:47,757

So what you're trying to do as a

performer of any sort or a deliverer of

905

00:36:47,757 --> 00:36:50,457

comedy is make people feel comfortable

with you, that they know you.

906

00:36:51,057 --> 00:36:52,197

I've got a really good example of this.

907

00:36:52,197 --> 00:36:55,257

I did some ghost writing

for, a memoir last year.

908

00:36:55,627 --> 00:36:57,637

I was talking to someone who'd never

written before, and she was really

909

00:36:57,637 --> 00:37:00,567

nice a very good writer and very

intelligent, she knew what she was

910

00:37:00,567 --> 00:37:01,857

doing, but she'd never written before.

911

00:37:02,097 --> 00:37:05,597

And she was trying to share funny

anecdotes about her husband, who

912

00:37:05,597 --> 00:37:07,037

was a very beloved and funny man.

913

00:37:07,737 --> 00:37:08,427

she had this great actor.

914

00:37:08,427 --> 00:37:10,647

She's a brilliant thing happened on

holiday where we fell off a boat.

915

00:37:10,647 --> 00:37:11,837

It was like something from Jacque Ty.

916

00:37:11,957 --> 00:37:13,397

It was pure slapstick that has to go in.

917

00:37:13,397 --> 00:37:14,747

I went, that sounds great.

918

00:37:15,197 --> 00:37:19,757

And she wrote it and I went,

yeah, but I don't know you and

919

00:37:19,757 --> 00:37:21,257

I don't know why that was funny.

920

00:37:21,617 --> 00:37:25,677

She said, so I rewrote it they'd hired

a boat in Greece set off into the

921

00:37:25,677 --> 00:37:27,542

harbor, and then fell in the water.

922

00:37:28,697 --> 00:37:29,177

I said, right.

923

00:37:29,177 --> 00:37:32,817

Okay, so he went to the shop, bought a

captain's hat, and he put it on and then

924

00:37:32,817 --> 00:37:33,777

he to the front and then he fell in.

925

00:37:33,807 --> 00:37:34,767

She went, but he didn't do that.

926

00:37:34,767 --> 00:37:35,817

I went, yeah, he did.

927

00:37:35,817 --> 00:37:38,847

If you want the story to be funny,

he fell over captain's hat on.

928

00:37:38,877 --> 00:37:42,207

You've gotta say you thought you were

kings of the sea before you fall in.

929

00:37:42,537 --> 00:37:44,697

You've gotta be somewhere

to rise and then fall.

930

00:37:44,877 --> 00:37:46,467

If you just fall in, I

might worry about you.

931

00:37:46,857 --> 00:37:48,297

I've gotta know you're safe and you are.

932

00:37:48,567 --> 00:37:49,317

He's a bit puffed up.

933

00:37:49,617 --> 00:37:53,157

And I went, yeah, something like

that needs to go now I need to know

934

00:37:53,157 --> 00:37:54,237

you've got somewhere to fall from.

935

00:37:54,597 --> 00:37:58,227

And I would say that 90% of making

people laugh is at the beginning going

936

00:38:00,927 --> 00:38:05,527

unaccustomed as I am to public speaking

is how you start best man's speech.

937

00:38:05,527 --> 00:38:07,307

And people go, so I know who you are

938

00:38:09,767 --> 00:38:11,817

or you say, I had someone

do this this week.

939

00:38:11,817 --> 00:38:12,147

They went.

940

00:38:12,637 --> 00:38:13,032

they were doing it.

941

00:38:13,037 --> 00:38:15,187

It was a friend's birthday and

there were loads of comedians there.

942

00:38:15,347 --> 00:38:18,407

his wife gave a speech, went, it's really

nerve wracking doing this speech in

943

00:38:18,407 --> 00:38:19,907

front of so many professional comedians.

944

00:38:20,147 --> 00:38:24,717

And then she was really funny I went, I've

seen people do it before in a room full

945

00:38:24,717 --> 00:38:29,457

of comedians and it always works 'cause

I immediately like you, I understand

946

00:38:29,487 --> 00:38:33,567

that these jokes have come from the heart

and that you're not trying to do one.

947

00:38:33,927 --> 00:38:36,417

It's incredibly winning and

it tells me who you are.

948

00:38:36,597 --> 00:38:37,557

I don't normally do this.

949

00:38:37,557 --> 00:38:39,087

I've come from a completely

different background.

950

00:38:39,087 --> 00:38:40,077

My jokes will be about that.

951

00:38:40,077 --> 00:38:41,667

he went, oh, I know you.

952

00:38:41,997 --> 00:38:43,197

It's a really nice trick.

953

00:38:43,197 --> 00:38:43,527

So I think.

954

00:38:43,872 --> 00:38:45,222

Pay attention to your setups.

955

00:38:45,762 --> 00:38:47,742

'cause the jokes themselves

will usually go well.

956

00:38:47,952 --> 00:38:50,772

And the other thing, I learned this

from Paddington, you can never add

957

00:38:50,772 --> 00:38:52,062

jokes to make something funnier.

958

00:38:52,332 --> 00:38:56,142

What you can do is you can weed

round them is there's us, you get

959

00:38:56,142 --> 00:38:57,882

employed a lot to gag things up.

960

00:38:58,152 --> 00:38:59,112

Can you add some gags?

961

00:38:59,202 --> 00:38:59,532

No.

962

00:38:59,832 --> 00:39:01,362

Remove as many gags as possible.

963

00:39:01,362 --> 00:39:06,342

So the gags you've got, have space

around them and are reflective of

964

00:39:06,702 --> 00:39:08,082

the assumptions of the audience.

965

00:39:08,712 --> 00:39:11,412

I'm surprised how often you deliver

a script back and you've taken

966

00:39:11,412 --> 00:39:13,992

half the gags out and they go,

thanks for adding so many gags in.

967

00:39:14,852 --> 00:39:15,992

it's weeding a garden.

968

00:39:15,992 --> 00:39:18,902

The flowers that are there look great

if you clear little space around them.

969

00:39:19,172 --> 00:39:23,262

usually if you keep adding jokes, you

add a joke to a joke, to a joke and

970

00:39:23,352 --> 00:39:24,852

people get confused, they get tired.

971

00:39:25,512 --> 00:39:27,012

But set that joke up beautifully.

972

00:39:27,012 --> 00:39:28,902

Pace it, what standups you love.

973

00:39:28,902 --> 00:39:30,162

the amount of time

they're just setting the

974

00:39:30,162 --> 00:39:32,862

joke up and the amount of time

that the audience get there before

975

00:39:32,862 --> 00:39:35,412

them, because you've set it up so

beautifully and the audience love that.

976

00:39:35,412 --> 00:39:37,592

They make the joke with you,

then it becomes communal.

977

00:39:38,077 --> 00:39:40,117

you're not being machine

gunned with jokes.

978

00:39:40,117 --> 00:39:41,377

You are making a joke together.

979

00:39:41,857 --> 00:39:42,457

It's lovely.

980

00:39:42,540 --> 00:39:43,830

John: If they don't tread on their laughs,

981

00:39:43,870 --> 00:39:45,430

they give them some space, which I,

982

00:39:45,430 --> 00:39:45,640

think

983

00:39:45,677 --> 00:39:45,857

Joel Morris: they

984

00:39:45,857 --> 00:39:46,127

wait.

985

00:39:46,157 --> 00:39:46,397

you'll

986

00:39:46,397 --> 00:39:48,437

see the, that patience

in a, in a good style.

987

00:39:48,437 --> 00:39:51,247

I was watching some, trying to think,

Dara O´Brien as a stand actually.

988

00:39:51,247 --> 00:39:52,147

I love watching.

989

00:39:52,147 --> 00:39:54,217

He's technically so brilliant

and watching him and going,

990

00:39:54,217 --> 00:39:56,077

this is a really slow buildup.

991

00:39:56,257 --> 00:39:57,427

He's got a lovely tone of voice.

992

00:39:57,427 --> 00:39:58,867

You're enjoying listening to him talk.

993

00:39:59,327 --> 00:40:03,437

he gives a lot of his gags a

really good long runup, and every

994

00:40:03,437 --> 00:40:04,847

time he does that, they land.

995

00:40:05,477 --> 00:40:08,147

But yeah, you have to be Stuart

Lee and give it a half hour runup.

996

00:40:08,147 --> 00:40:10,907

But you can give it like a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

997

00:40:11,177 --> 00:40:11,627

It's not just

998

00:40:11,627 --> 00:40:12,287

beats of three.

999

00:40:12,287 --> 00:40:15,047

You can get a long way in before

and if the audience get there before

1000

00:40:15,047 --> 00:40:15,827

you, they love it.

1001

00:40:16,420 --> 00:40:18,235

John: Well, I'm definitely

gonna be working on my

1002

00:40:18,265 --> 00:40:19,795

pre-framing for the audience,

1003

00:40:19,795 --> 00:40:20,695

but for my next

1004

00:40:20,695 --> 00:40:20,995

open

1005

00:40:21,197 --> 00:40:21,947

Joel Morris: Wear a special

1006

00:40:21,947 --> 00:40:22,367

hat.

1007

00:40:23,957 --> 00:40:25,667

It can be down to your

jacket, it can be down

1008

00:40:25,667 --> 00:40:26,357

to the poster.

1009

00:40:26,447 --> 00:40:26,687

There's a

1010

00:40:26,687 --> 00:40:28,607

million ways you can set the

audience up to expect your

1011

00:40:28,850 --> 00:40:30,110

John: boy, it's given

me a lot to think about.

1012

00:40:30,410 --> 00:40:31,980

Joe, you've been so generous with your

1013

00:40:31,980 --> 00:40:34,050

time and your experience

and everything you said.

1014

00:40:34,050 --> 00:40:36,660

I really, really enjoyed

speaking with you as well.

1015

00:40:36,660 --> 00:40:39,660

I do actively encourage anyone

who hasn't already to go and check

1016

00:40:39,660 --> 00:40:41,660

out your book, the funny or die.

1017

00:40:41,930 --> 00:40:43,520

Available pretty much everywhere.

1018

00:40:43,700 --> 00:40:44,840

Is there anything else you've got

1019

00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:46,311

coming up that you'd like

people to be looking out for?

1020

00:40:46,782 --> 00:40:48,222

Joel Morris: I would say

I would be funny or die.

1021

00:40:48,282 --> 00:40:49,572

The paperback should be coming out soon.

1022

00:40:49,572 --> 00:40:50,322

I'm doing a deal for it now.

1023

00:40:50,322 --> 00:40:51,432

The publishers collapsed.

1024

00:40:51,432 --> 00:40:53,322

If you buy the hard back,

I don't get any money.

1025

00:40:53,502 --> 00:40:55,152

Audiobook, I do get the money from.

1026

00:40:55,402 --> 00:40:57,202

so yeah, if this is the audio book

that's there, but there'll be an

1027

00:40:57,202 --> 00:40:58,282

ebook and a paperback out soon.

1028

00:40:58,282 --> 00:40:59,302

talking to a publisher next week

1029

00:40:59,302 --> 00:41:01,102

about salvaging something

from the wreckage.

1030

00:41:01,312 --> 00:41:02,242

it's a lovely book.

1031

00:41:02,242 --> 00:41:03,052

I want to save it.

1032

00:41:03,332 --> 00:41:06,062

other things I'm doing, I just did a

thing called Broken Veil, which is a

1033

00:41:06,062 --> 00:41:09,372

horror thing, done with a, a comedy

writer friend of Michael Will Lin,

1034

00:41:09,372 --> 00:41:12,522

because we're both massive Ghost

Story fans, and that's a podcast.

1035

00:41:12,522 --> 00:41:16,272

It went to number one in the podcast

charts above the arches, a thing that you

1036

00:41:16,272 --> 00:41:17,862

would think was impossible these days.

1037

00:41:18,202 --> 00:41:19,072

I'm very, very proud of that.

1038

00:41:19,077 --> 00:41:21,747

and it's basically, if you're a

comedy fan, there's lots in it.

1039

00:41:21,747 --> 00:41:24,187

it's not a comedy, but we talk

to a lot of comedians in it

1040

00:41:24,277 --> 00:41:25,567

about ghost stories and things,

1041

00:41:25,957 --> 00:41:29,017

I think the techniques of

telling a scary story, telling

1042

00:41:29,017 --> 00:41:30,337

a funny story are so similar.

1043

00:41:30,737 --> 00:41:34,007

it was an exercise in trying to

demonstrate how storytelling techniques to

1044

00:41:34,007 --> 00:41:35,837

hold someone's attention are very similar.

1045

00:41:36,167 --> 00:41:39,227

I would challenge anyone to listen to

Broken Veil and not learn something

1046

00:41:39,227 --> 00:41:42,347

about how to hold your attention

because it was an experiment in doing

1047

00:41:42,347 --> 00:41:43,677

that, but in a different medium.

1048

00:41:43,677 --> 00:41:44,757

I'm very proud of that.

1049

00:41:44,857 --> 00:41:46,797

hopefully if you listen

to it and enjoy it.

1050

00:41:46,797 --> 00:41:49,167

We're gonna do some crowdfunding

to make some more because

1051

00:41:49,167 --> 00:41:50,187

people did really like it,

1052

00:41:50,237 --> 00:41:51,222

John: I haven't checked out yet,

1053

00:41:51,292 --> 00:41:51,712

Joel Morris: my other

1054

00:41:51,712 --> 00:41:53,792

obsession is horror but I

think they're very similar.

1055

00:41:54,670 --> 00:41:55,660

John: Definitely wants

to look out for, I'm

1056

00:41:55,660 --> 00:41:56,800

gonna add it to my podcast

1057

00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:57,160

list.

1058

00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:57,760

Joel Morris: you love it?

1059

00:41:58,098 --> 00:41:58,953

John: Joe, please stay on the line.

1060

00:41:59,008 --> 00:42:01,108

it's been an absolute

pleasure chatting with you

1061

00:42:01,108 --> 00:42:01,558

today.

1062

00:42:01,608 --> 00:42:03,888

and thank you so much for

agreeing to come on the show.

1063

00:42:04,540 --> 00:42:05,140

Joel Morris: Thanks for asking me

1064

00:42:05,140 --> 00:42:05,290

on.

1065

00:42:05,633 --> 00:42:07,163

John: Well, what a treat that was.

1066

00:42:07,163 --> 00:42:11,663

And genuinely, I, when I reached out to

Joel, I honestly didn't expect him to

1067

00:42:11,663 --> 00:42:16,103

agree to come on the show, and he did, and

he was very generous with, with his time.

1068

00:42:16,103 --> 00:42:20,243

What you didn't see in that episode

was a whole load of technical hiccups.

1069

00:42:20,243 --> 00:42:22,703

We actually spent several hours

together trying to figure out what the

1070

00:42:22,703 --> 00:42:24,413

problems were and get the tech sorted.

1071

00:42:24,683 --> 00:42:24,803

Um.

1072

00:42:25,073 --> 00:42:26,483

He was very patient with that.

1073

00:42:26,533 --> 00:42:30,163

So a massive thanks to Joel for that

and for peeling back the curtain on

1074

00:42:30,163 --> 00:42:34,243

the craft of comedy and doing it with

the same intelligence, warmth, and wit

1075

00:42:34,423 --> 00:42:36,373

he brings to everything he touches.

1076

00:42:36,943 --> 00:42:40,873

If you haven't yet read, Be

Funny or Die, do yourself a

1077

00:42:40,903 --> 00:42:42,703

favor and grab the audio book.

1078

00:42:42,703 --> 00:42:44,593

Remember, that's the one that

Joel actually gets paid for.

1079

00:42:44,863 --> 00:42:46,033

It's insightful.

1080

00:42:46,033 --> 00:42:46,963

It is hilarious.

1081

00:42:46,993 --> 00:42:49,303

And yes, he does read it himself.

1082

00:42:49,943 --> 00:42:54,703

You can check out his excellent horror

meets storytelling podcast, broken Veil.

1083

00:42:55,093 --> 00:42:55,753

Perfect.

1084

00:42:55,753 --> 00:43:00,883

If you're curious about the spooky side

of structure, if this episode make you

1085

00:43:00,883 --> 00:43:05,413

laugh, think or rethink how you show

up in front of an audience, subscribe,

1086

00:43:05,443 --> 00:43:08,113

share it with a mate and leave a review.

1087

00:43:08,263 --> 00:43:11,593

It helps more people to find

the show, and that's no joke.

1088

00:43:11,953 --> 00:43:12,793

See you next time.