Transcripts
Brandon Brown, CEO of the MIND Trust.
Jed Wallace:Thank you so much for joining us here for a CharterFolk Chat.
Brandon Brown:Hey, thanks so much for having me, Jed.
Brandon Brown:Really appreciate it.
Jed Wallace:You know, I've been excited about this one for a while and very
Jed Wallace:thankful that you agreed to do this.
Jed Wallace:I think this is an important conversation.
Jed Wallace:it's also a little bit of a delicate one and I hope that we can demonstrate
Jed Wallace:some tone rightness here 'cause we could talk about some of these
Jed Wallace:topics here and just get it wrong.
Jed Wallace:But I feel like trying to run at some issues right now with as much
Jed Wallace:candor as we can is probably helpful.
Jed Wallace:And there's nobody I entrust, you know, in the country, frankly, more than you to
Jed Wallace:help us on these sensitive topics, speak with candor and show, a great deal
Jed Wallace:of courage in the work that you're doing.
Jed Wallace:So again, thank you and, and look forward to diving in here.
Brandon Brown:We're really looking forward to it.
Brandon Brown:this should be a lively and super transparent conversation.
Jed Wallace:Alright.
Jed Wallace:Almost everybody here that's going to be watching our stuff or listening to
Jed Wallace:our stuff is gonna know who you are, but there may be a few, and in fact, there
Jed Wallace:have been some conversations I've had just the last few days, that person's
Jed Wallace:who's reading, oh, that's interesting.
Jed Wallace:Okay.
Jed Wallace:There may be two or three people in Charter Land or in ed reform land that
Jed Wallace:don't know Brandon Brown or there are probably some that don't really know your
Jed Wallace:background and how exactly step by step you've found yourself in this place of
Jed Wallace:immense, responsibility and influence.
Jed Wallace:can you walk people through what your, what your experience has been
Jed Wallace:here in charter schools in ed reform?
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:So I am originally from the south side of Indianapolis.
Brandon Brown:grew up in a large family, so I was the oldest of.
Brandon Brown:Five kids.
Brandon Brown:So I have four younger siblings.
Brandon Brown:went to college at Wash U and I know that, that you are there
Brandon Brown:quite often, Jed, which is amazing.
Brandon Brown:Go Bears.
Jed Wallace:Go Bears.
Jed Wallace:That's right.
Jed Wallace:Go Bears.
Brandon Brown:great experience.
Brandon Brown:I was a track and cross country athlete and really.
Brandon Brown:Learned how to build community through that experience.
Brandon Brown:And, it, it kind of scratched the competitive itch as well.
Brandon Brown:I, like many of us, I joined TFA, out of college, taught ninth and 10th
Brandon Brown:grade English on the south side of St.
Brandon Brown:Louis.
Brandon Brown:and like many TFA alums, met my wife when I was in the core.
Brandon Brown:So she was a middle school math teacher a few miles north of me.
Brandon Brown:we started dating at the beginning of the school year.
Brandon Brown:I'm very impatient.
Brandon Brown:when I kind of make a conclusion on something I like to move.
Brandon Brown:So we got engaged three months later.
Brandon Brown:Oh gee.
Brandon Brown:and we got married between year one and year two of the corps.
Brandon Brown:Oh
Jed Wallace:my gosh.
Brandon Brown:It was certainly a whirlwind.
Jed Wallace:Listen, I'm married to a TFA Corps member, right?
Jed Wallace:So first of all, you show, you show great judgment, but you move faster than we did.
Jed Wallace:that's amazing.
Brandon Brown:So we, We're kind of thinking about what was
Brandon Brown:next after, our core commitment.
Brandon Brown:And, I had the opportunity to join TFA staff here in Indie.
Brandon Brown:so it was, it was very exciting to get home.
Brandon Brown:I genuinely thought, and, had conversations with my wife
Brandon Brown:about how, we'll probably do this for two or three years and then
Brandon Brown:we'll figure out something else.
Brandon Brown:and here we are over 15 years later, still, still committed to
Brandon Brown:the city and the, work of providing all kids, with a great education.
Brandon Brown:So after my time on TFA staff, joined the mayor's office as
Brandon Brown:the charter schools director.
Brandon Brown:so the unique thing about Indianapolis is that the mayor is the major authorizer.
Brandon Brown:So, really had the opportunity to see firsthand what high quality authorizing
Brandon Brown:looks like, in the intersection between high quality schools and politics.
Brandon Brown:and learned a lot from the mayor.
Brandon Brown:He was a. 20 year retired Marine who had a no nonsense way of leading.
Brandon Brown:He would hire people, he would give them clear expectations, and
Brandon Brown:then he would get outta their way.
Brandon Brown:and, it was kind of a trial by fire and, and learned a ton when
Brandon Brown:he chose not to run for reelection.
Brandon Brown:I was, really thinking about what's next.
Brandon Brown:and had the opportunity to join the MIND Trust just over 10 years ago now.
Brandon Brown:and then have been the CEO for just about seven and a half years.
Brandon Brown:and we are celebrating our 20th anniversary.
Brandon Brown:amazing.
Brandon Brown:and our, super excited about the impact that we've collectively made here in Indy.
Brandon Brown:and are thinking about how do we, get towards this north star of a system of
Brandon Brown:autonomous, highly accountable schools that are, as high quality as possible
Brandon Brown:and our responsive to our community and really excited to work towards
Brandon Brown:that vision here in the next few years.
Jed Wallace:Love that using the term North Star.
Jed Wallace:That's fantastic.
Jed Wallace:Whatever.
Jed Wallace:We're not, we won't skip to that.
Jed Wallace:We'll hold that for a little while here.
Jed Wallace:But, look, a part of the, framing for this is around courage and advocacy
Jed Wallace:and, I, i, look, you've heard me say it too directly and you've probably heard
Jed Wallace:bang shots, just the courageousness that you have shown in recent years,
Jed Wallace:I just think is, is incredible.
Jed Wallace:and that's why I wanted to talk with you.
Jed Wallace:I also wanna be tone right on.
Jed Wallace:Courage generally within our space because, there are many people
Jed Wallace:that are already demonstrating high levels of courage.
Jed Wallace:I think courage is something that's been a hallmark of the charter school
Jed Wallace:movement going back 30 years now.
Jed Wallace:And I also don't wanna suggest that the responsibilities for courageousness fall
Jed Wallace:un proportionately on the shoulders of the CEOs of advocacy organizations, or
Jed Wallace:even within advocacy organizations at all.
Jed Wallace:school leaders are showing courageousness over and over again.
Jed Wallace:Parents are, other employees are funders are too, when they get
Jed Wallace:called out from time to time.
Jed Wallace:So, I do at the same time, I do believe that we're probably in a moment
Jed Wallace:when a chapter of even additional courageousness is necessary, but I
Jed Wallace:wanted to like start with that framing that, hey, courage is something we need
Jed Wallace:to be thinking about, but we don't do.
Jed Wallace:So from a perspective of, of deficit.
Jed Wallace:any, any just general reactions on the framing here?
Jed Wallace:'cause I'd, love to go from there, but I think it also would be good
Jed Wallace:to hear your observations on that.
Brandon Brown:Yeah, no, I, I, I totally think that's the right frame.
Brandon Brown:I was actually thinking, as I was trying to prep for this conversation about, if
Brandon Brown:you think about the three decades plus of charter schooling across the country,
Brandon Brown:just the multitude of courageous examples of, true leadership, right?
Brandon Brown:So from the early years and, all the school founders who had to scrap and claw
Brandon Brown:to even get those schools launched, we're now, 20 years into the reforms in New
Brandon Brown:Orleans, which not only transformed Yeah.
Brandon Brown:That community through courageous leadership, right?
Brandon Brown:But have, really inspired cities across the country.
Brandon Brown:To really emulate that courage.
Brandon Brown:So I couldn't agree more with you that there are examples of courage
Brandon Brown:all across our sector, and I also agreed that the time that we're in
Brandon Brown:right now demands even more of it.
Brandon Brown:So, kind of whatever we can do in Indy to, share the lessons, the wins, the,
Brandon Brown:the challenges, to kind of light a fire with, more courageous leaders out there.
Brandon Brown:I get, I get really excited to think about that impact.
Jed Wallace:Alright, great.
Jed Wallace:Thank you for that.
Jed Wallace:So then also some other more framing and some context.
Jed Wallace:Can you talk to us about what the progress that was made in this last year?
Jed Wallace:There have been articles and there have been comments in a variety of
Jed Wallace:different contexts saying that what happened in Indiana last year that may
Jed Wallace:be the strongest, legislative session we've ever seen any single state have.
Jed Wallace:There are people that will argue that left and right.
Jed Wallace:Let's just, say that it's certainly among the most important, sessions
Jed Wallace:that we've had in terms of just sheer volume of breakthrough.
Jed Wallace:So would you mind just sharing with listeners who may not be
Jed Wallace:acquainted with all the detail, or at least the resonant detail?
Jed Wallace:The salient detail, what was the amount of progress
Jed Wallace:that was made last year?
Brandon Brown:Yeah, so it's, it's what I've started calling the kitchen sink.
Brandon Brown:Session.
Brandon Brown:I mean, there, there was a, there was a lot going on.
Brandon Brown:So, to kind of just, just quickly sum it up, I think that the biggest
Brandon Brown:accomplishment was, getting to the finish line around sharing local
Brandon Brown:property taxes, which our school students there is a $7,900 per student funding
Brandon Brown:disparity between charter students and indie and their school district peers.
Brandon Brown:It's unacceptable.
Brandon Brown:It's just ab absolutely unacceptable.
Brandon Brown:And there's been, I would say incremental progress now for a few years, primarily
Brandon Brown:in 2023 where new referendums need to be shared and then incremental increases.
Brandon Brown:Local levies also had to be shared.
Brandon Brown:So 2023 meant that that gap's not gonna widen anymore.
Brandon Brown:2025 meant we have to get rid of the gap.
Brandon Brown:So to achieve, you know, full local property tax sharing and, 2025 was
Brandon Brown:something that a lot of advocates, not just me, a lot of advocates
Brandon Brown:have been working for years on.
Brandon Brown:secondly, which something that's a little bit more wonky, but I am actually equally
Brandon Brown:as excited about, and something that the mine trust has been, you know, trying
Brandon Brown:to pursue now for about 15 years, the ability for, schools within a community
Brandon Brown:to come together to create an independent facility and transportation authority.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:So now that local resources will start to flow to, you know, more
Brandon Brown:kids, we have to think about, okay, so how can we expand access?
Brandon Brown:How can we rethink managing facilities and transportation
Brandon Brown:and separating the management of transportation and facilities?
Brandon Brown:From the education of kids.
Brandon Brown:and I'm excited this got some news last week.
Brandon Brown:I'm excited that, 54 charter schools in Indy all came together to submit
Brandon Brown:an application to the state to create this new infrastructure.
Jed Wallace:That's great.
Jed Wallace:Amazing.
Brandon Brown:and we're, we're, we're optimistic that that's going to be
Brandon Brown:approved to, move forward a multi-year design process, you know, to really figure
Brandon Brown:out what does infrastructure look like to manage those two operational components.
Brandon Brown:And then hopefully that new entity would actually have the ability
Brandon Brown:to levy property taxes as well.
Brandon Brown:third in the same bill, there was the creation of what is called the
Brandon Brown:Indianapolis Local Education Alliance.
Brandon Brown:So this is a nine member advisory group.
Brandon Brown:The majority of whom are appointed by the mayor of Indianapolis.
Brandon Brown:Who you, you'll remember, is also the major authorizer.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:in the task of this group is to come up with a series of legislative
Brandon Brown:recommendations by December.
Brandon Brown:Would reimagine the structure of our school district.
Brandon Brown:So, you know, rethinking transportation and facilities, but also rethinking
Brandon Brown:school district governance, rethinking school autonomy.
Brandon Brown:So we'll kind of see where this goes the next few months.
Brandon Brown:And I don't have a crystal ball, but the North star of a system of autonomous
Brandon Brown:schools, you know, led by nonprofit boards who have a performance contract with an
Brandon Brown:authorizer in the moral imperative to scale that up to as many kids as possible.
Brandon Brown:You can imagine how that, you know, how a,
Brandon Brown:How a piece of that vision, right, could see its way into these recommendations.
Brandon Brown:So really excited that the community has a chance for local civic leaders
Brandon Brown:to come together to chart the course.
Brandon Brown:And then hopefully our legislature will be responsive to that.
Brandon Brown:last, which kind of flew under the radar 'cause there were so much
Brandon Brown:going on, but actually has had the, the most impact already is a simple,
Brandon Brown:Two sentence zoning reform that pretty much says a school of all types is
Brandon Brown:approved in all zoning districts.
Brandon Brown:Which means that once a charter school gets its charter, it's a golden ticket.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:Zoning, is no longer an issue, and zoning can no longer be a weapon used
Brandon Brown:to prevent the opening of a new school.
Brandon Brown:That law in and of itself with charter schools and private
Brandon Brown:schools has already paved the way for eight to 10 schools to open.
Jed Wallace:Unbelievable,
Brandon Brown:of course, of the past two months.
Brandon Brown:So we were starting to see zoning used as a weapon, and there was one
Brandon Brown:case in particular in our city that was egregious and that motivated some
Brandon Brown:legislators to, you know, really.
Brandon Brown:Think about that policy change, and it kind of flew under the
Brandon Brown:radar during session, but it's already paying huge dividends.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Jed Wallace:I remember when you first told me about that.
Jed Wallace:It was in a total, oh, by the way, that zoning thing, and I believe,
Jed Wallace:you had connected with Utah and you had lifted the language from Utah.
Jed Wallace:So now we have two states that have it, but there has been states that
Jed Wallace:have been working on that issue as the number one issue forever.
Jed Wallace:And, and you have made that, and it's the fourth thing that you
Jed Wallace:mentioned, you know, in the, in the progress that was made last year.
Jed Wallace:So, just incredible.
Jed Wallace:Congratulations.
Jed Wallace:It wasn't in fact an incre, a great session.
Jed Wallace:I'd love for you to talk a little bit, if you could give us a backstage pass.
Jed Wallace:About how this happened.
Jed Wallace:CharterFolk Readers may remember that about this time last year, I went out
Jed Wallace:to Indiana, spent some significant time there, did a whole Indianapolis
Jed Wallace:series of posts and all that stuff.
Jed Wallace:You took me out for this shrimp dinner that I'll never, forget.
Jed Wallace:And, and you let me flap my gums for a very long time because you
Jed Wallace:were talking about, Hey, we're gonna do something big next year.
Jed Wallace:And then I've told everybody, everything that I shared with
Jed Wallace:Brandon, he completely and utterly it.
Jed Wallace:he took the general spirit of it and then forgot every specific, and
Jed Wallace:then came up with something smarter.
Jed Wallace:So, walk us through, give us the backstage pass.
Jed Wallace:How did something like this actually get done?
Brandon Brown:So, I actually think our dinner over shrimp cocktail was the night
Brandon Brown:of the vice presidential debate, because I remember it being on, and we were kind of
Brandon Brown:watching that, but we were more interested in our conversation about charter schools.
Brandon Brown:That's right.
Brandon Brown:That's right.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:So, kind of.
Brandon Brown:Mentioned this earlier, but this was, this session was really a culmination of about
Brandon Brown:six years of intentional coalition work.
Brandon Brown:So, the, the core of that coalition was the MIND Trust and the Institute
Brandon Brown:for Quality Education, which is our statewide school choice political
Brandon Brown:powerhouse, and a, newly constituted state charter school association.
Brandon Brown:So that was kind of the three legged stool of the core of the coalition.
Brandon Brown:and then we also had members of the coalition, that spanned
Brandon Brown:the geography of Indiana.
Brandon Brown:So we have a, wealthy, very influential school founder on the, northern end of
Brandon Brown:our state who, who was in the coalition.
Brandon Brown:And then we had a, wealthy, very influential school founder in the
Brandon Brown:south who was also in our coalition.
Brandon Brown:So knowing that most charters in Indiana are located.
Brandon Brown:Indy, it's very important for us to get geographic representation so that we
Brandon Brown:had, real influence with legislators that were kind of, outside the metro area.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:So this coalition met, once every two weeks as a group
Brandon Brown:religiously for six years.
Brandon Brown:And we're still meeting because there's still a lot of work to be done.
Brandon Brown:And we had subcommittees, we would yell at each other.
Brandon Brown:We would argue we would, you know, have to call after a zoom to apologize.
Brandon Brown:Right.
Brandon Brown:But it was just a big gnarly family, right.
Brandon Brown:That, that all had this shared value, but maybe came at it in a variety of ways.
Brandon Brown:And, you know, through, through all of those conversations, we really
Brandon Brown:gelled and I think, you know, hit our stride coming into the 2025 session.
Brandon Brown:So, You know, one of my reflections is, you know, yes.
Brandon Brown:Like maybe it took some courage from me and the mind trust, but it took a
Brandon Brown:lot of courage from a lot of people.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:Over the course of time to actually build, you know, the political
Brandon Brown:constituency to see the wins that we saw.
Brandon Brown:You know, and I would also say like, you can be the best advocate in the
Brandon Brown:world, but the legislators are actually the ones who write the bills, right?
Brandon Brown:Mm-hmm.
Brandon Brown:They have their name on the bills, they're driving the, and,
Brandon Brown:and they're taking the heat.
Brandon Brown:So we just are also blessed with a, group of amazing State house
Brandon Brown:leaders who have been charter school champions for a long time, and who
Brandon Brown:were incredible partners this session who, you know, really ended up driving
Brandon Brown:this thing in, in leading the charge.
Brandon Brown:And it was an honor for us to be able to, you know, help to surface
Brandon Brown:some ideas and then, you know, really provide them support along the way.
Jed Wallace:I'd let, I wanna go in on some of that.
Jed Wallace:Personal parts of, of, you know, your story here over the last year, before,
Jed Wallace:can we tie it to some writing that you've done here at, CharterFolk?
Jed Wallace:it's interesting, you know, you won the Brian's Voice
Jed Wallace:award for your post-election.
Jed Wallace:hey, what should reformers be taking from the November election,
Jed Wallace:which was nominated and ended up being one of the three choices?
Jed Wallace:I will say there is a little bit of editorial separation here at CharterFolk.
Jed Wallace:I didn't choose, I didn't know what was going on.
Jed Wallace:They just did it and I was like, okay, that's great.
Jed Wallace:I liked that post too.
Jed Wallace:Actually, if you'd asked me what would've been my favorite Brandon
Jed Wallace:Brown Post of the last year, it was the second one you wrote last year,
Jed Wallace:which was about the need for charter school, advocates to not be agnostic
Jed Wallace:about, about, school, school type.
Jed Wallace:and so what I wonder is, can you tie that writing to what happened?
Jed Wallace:Uh, here we've also got this, question about how does the charter
Jed Wallace:school world get on offense?
Jed Wallace:We hear it over and over and over again, and I tend to think there's a
Jed Wallace:real connection be between ending our agnosticism and getting on offense.
Jed Wallace:Uh, can you just talk about those topics generally?
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:So this is a topic where I've, I've just shifted, quite frankly,
Brandon Brown:the last two or three years.
Brandon Brown:I, my, my kid, I am not, I'm not kidding.
Brandon Brown:This is a, this is a real story.
Brandon Brown:So my kids, searched for my name.
Brandon Brown:On YouTube the other day, and they, and they pulled up a 2013 video.
Brandon Brown:I looked a lot younger, of me speaking at a local community association meeting
Brandon Brown:when I was at the mayor's office.
Brandon Brown:And I literally used the term school choice agnostic, or no, sorry, literally
Brandon Brown:use the term school type agnostic.
Brandon Brown:and, spent, spend a lot of time just to be really frank, apologizing
Brandon Brown:for the controversy around charter schools and, really talking about
Brandon Brown:how, schools of all types can be successful, and no one type is, more
Brandon Brown:successful than the others because I, it was, it was beat into me, Jed, that
Brandon Brown:that's how you talk about this work.
Jed Wallace:Yep.
Brandon Brown:And I, and I have used those phrases, hundreds
Brandon Brown:of times during my career.
Brandon Brown:And I gotta, the point a couple years ago where I said, you know what, like,
Brandon Brown:I've actually devoted my career to this.
Brandon Brown:I've read the research.
Brandon Brown:I have, seen this firsthand and I actually have a view that there is
Brandon Brown:a better way to do public schooling than how we have historically done it.
Brandon Brown:And charter schooling's not perfect.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:But the conditions that charter schools bring to the table, our conditions
Brandon Brown:that in my community have led to significantly better academic performance.
Brandon Brown:Every external study, every analysis has led to the same conclusion.
Brandon Brown:So, I just, kind of said, look, if I'm a charter school advocate, and
Brandon Brown:if this is all the data, then I'm actually not school type agnostic.
Brandon Brown:And that does not mean that I hate traditional public schools.
Brandon Brown:That does not mean that there are not great traditional public schools.
Brandon Brown:There are,
Brandon Brown:yeah.
Brandon Brown:But on the whole, we have a form of public schooling that
Brandon Brown:unequivocally works in our community.
Brandon Brown:And, and why would I. Why would I hide that fact?
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:And
Brandon Brown:I started thinking, right, if you are a pro-choice or a pro-life advocate,
Brandon Brown:are you agnostic on abortion?
Brandon Brown:If you are an advocate that attacks homelessness, are
Brandon Brown:you agnostic on homelessness?
Brandon Brown:Right.
Brandon Brown:You could go down the line, of course not, right?
Brandon Brown:If you're an advocate, you affirmatively advocate for the thing that you
Brandon Brown:deeply believe will improve lives.
Brandon Brown:And you know, I think that same thing applies to the work
Brandon Brown:of a charter school advocate.
Brandon Brown:We need to affirmatively advocate for the conditions within charter
Brandon Brown:schools being applied to more kids.
Brandon Brown:And if we're unable or unwilling to do that, then we should ask ourselves why.
Jed Wallace:Yep.
Brandon Brown:And if we're not able to get to the point where we think
Brandon Brown:that is a moral imperative, then.
Brandon Brown:We're either doing charter schooling wrong in a given community and you
Brandon Brown:know, not actually seeing those results.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:Or
Brandon Brown:maybe we don't have the fire in the belly to actually advocate,
Brandon Brown:forcefully enough for more kids to be able to get those conditions.
Brandon Brown:So this is something that I've evolved on over time and, you know, I don't
Brandon Brown:know if there's a right or wrong answer, but this is how I view it.
Brandon Brown:And to your point, it directly relates to the legislative wins.
Brandon Brown:Yep.
Brandon Brown:The conviction that it took to even propose those ideas in the first place.
Brandon Brown:Yep.
Brandon Brown:And then the conviction that it took to see it through the four months
Brandon Brown:of the session would not have been there if I was school type agnostic.
Brandon Brown:It just wouldn't have Judd, I probably would've implicitly done
Brandon Brown:this, but I would've slowed down.
Jed Wallace:Yep.
Jed Wallace:And
Brandon Brown:I would have pumped the brakes.
Jed Wallace:Yep.
Brandon Brown:I'm not agnostic on school type.
Brandon Brown:I believe that this is a moral imperative to scale up this model
Brandon Brown:to serve more public school kids.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:For that reason.
Brandon Brown:Right.
Brandon Brown:Come hell or high water, we were gonna see it through.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Jed Wallace:Well, I've shared with you separately, how during my seventh year at, at CCSA,
Jed Wallace:I was driving into Oakland for a, a community meeting and I knew there were
Jed Wallace:gonna be three or 400 people there, and I was gonna be the one charter guy.
Jed Wallace:and as it turned out, there were CharterFolk in the audience, but
Jed Wallace:they were there in such small numbers relative to the status quo protectors
Jed Wallace:that none of them really wanted to stand up, nor did I expect them to stand up.
Jed Wallace:I knew I was essentially going into this on my own.
Jed Wallace:And I also, I kind of liked that.
Jed Wallace:I, I, you know, whatever there are people, I didn't, I didn't consider it a burden.
Jed Wallace:I considered a part of the job.
Jed Wallace:The burden for me driving in, in my minivan that I'm still
Jed Wallace:driving to this darn day was.
Jed Wallace:I'm just not as crisp in these settings as I want to be.
Jed Wallace:What?
Jed Wallace:What am I thinking?
Jed Wallace:And I really, on that drive, that 80 mile drive.
Jed Wallace:I grounded on this idea.
Jed Wallace:What we are really seeking is greatly more public education and the
Jed Wallace:reason that we like charter schools.
Jed Wallace:Is because we are examples of what greatly more public education is,
Jed Wallace:and we're developing the heft to push the public school system to
Jed Wallace:become greatly more public too.
Jed Wallace:Yes, to become higher performing as you're talking about, but also to
Jed Wallace:purge itself of its unfairnesses.
Jed Wallace:And we as charter school people have no reason to be.
Jed Wallace:Sheepish in the least about the fact that we want those things, to, to, be erased.
Jed Wallace:while we do not ever present ourselves as having it all figured out, or,
Jed Wallace:hey, charter school people are just genetically better than others, other
Jed Wallace:people in all these situations that are heroes as well, we're trying to
Jed Wallace:push this overall system to allow them to become even more successful.
Jed Wallace:Okay.
Jed Wallace:So, and yet, and yet what we have to put up with, you know, to, to simply,
Jed Wallace:assert that, so I wouldn't, would you, would you mind just, just sharing a
Jed Wallace:little bit what your personal experience?
Jed Wallace:What, like last year?
Jed Wallace:I mean, look, you look great right now.
Jed Wallace:I gotta say you look great.
Jed Wallace:You look like you did a year ago.
Jed Wallace:I did see you about halfway through this.
Jed Wallace:I thought you'd lost a lot of weight.
Jed Wallace:I thought you looked like you lost a lot of sleep.
Jed Wallace:I can, I guess I can't see your step, so I can't see the spring, but I can
Jed Wallace:almost, I can sense the spring into your step just by your posture right now.
Jed Wallace:Talk a little bit about what the experience was like, and, and,
Jed Wallace:and what's it really require to courageously unapologetically be
Jed Wallace:agnostic, un agnostic in support of, of charter school, progress.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:I mean, it, I think, I think one thing that's really important is, again,
Brandon Brown:there was, there was a coalition of folks in our city and across the state
Brandon Brown:who worked hard on this, and that that courage and the sacrifice
Brandon Brown:was, shared among a lot of people.
Brandon Brown:And I have a colleague in particular who, is a,
Brandon Brown:Leader in the black community in our city who, took heat from certain corners of
Brandon Brown:our community that, she will never go into detail with because it was so bad.
Brandon Brown:So, one, I I just wanna acknowledge that there were, a lot of people who,
Brandon Brown:worked, really hard to see this through.
Brandon Brown:and for whatever reason, I kind of ended up being the face, in
Brandon Brown:the kind of, maybe public center of a lot of the attacks.
Brandon Brown:so yeah.
Brandon Brown:So I think that your observations were right.
Brandon Brown:I didn't sleep a lot during legislative session.
Brandon Brown:Mm-hmm.
Brandon Brown:I realized that I became irritable with my family, more than I would've liked.
Brandon Brown:my, I broke out significantly kind of all over my face.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:The last two months of session.
Brandon Brown:and it, it.
Brandon Brown:Wore me down, and it, it showed in, multiple ways.
Brandon Brown:I was thinking last night, just, sampling of, of the, of
Brandon Brown:the names that I was called.
Brandon Brown:And this is a, yeah, this is a very small sample, right?
Brandon Brown:So apparently I was an architect of Project 2025.
Brandon Brown:o obviously I was a racist.
Brandon Brown:I was a complete piece of shit.
Brandon Brown:I was a fascist.
Brandon Brown:the amount of memes that were, floating on social media, that
Brandon Brown:are just even hard to describe.
Brandon Brown:They were so bizarre, Mm-hmm.
Brandon Brown:And I think over time, right.
Brandon Brown:So you can't shield your kids from all of that.
Brandon Brown:So they would Yeah.
Brandon Brown:see some of it, they would hear some of it.
Brandon Brown:That meant we had to have hard conversations in the evenings, about
Brandon Brown:what it is that I do at work and, and then there were several moments in
Brandon Brown:time that, that really stand out at me.
Brandon Brown:So, one was, the first school board meeting after, one of the bills that we
Brandon Brown:actually didn't push, but kind of, was, was made public literally on New Year's
Brandon Brown:Eve while I was driving to a Pacers game.
Brandon Brown:and it was the bill that got the most national coverage the first month of
Brandon Brown:the session that would, that would have dissolved IPS and made all
Brandon Brown:the schools charter schools, that was not driven by the mine trust.
Brandon Brown:That was not something that we necessarily supported publicly,
Brandon Brown:but that was the first bill that dropped a week before the session.
Brandon Brown:and it got a lot of attention.
Brandon Brown:yeah.
Brandon Brown:And, and it really was the speaker and the legislative leadership's
Brandon Brown:attempt to create urgency.
Brandon Brown:The conversation around sharing local property tax dollars.
Brandon Brown:Yep.
Brandon Brown:but that, that kind of set the stage right for four months of vitriol
Brandon Brown:and like during the game, I was in the stands it al it already started
Brandon Brown:on social media, and just didn't, didn't relent for about four months.
Brandon Brown:Well, the next week it was the first, school board meeting of the year for
Brandon Brown:our district and one of our team members ran into one of the new school board
Brandon Brown:members at IPS, a community event.
Brandon Brown:and this was somebody that I had, supported for school board
Brandon Brown:I had known for a long time.
Brandon Brown:I considered her a friend and she looked at our staff member and said,
Brandon Brown:I'm gonna say some really horrible things about your boss tonight.
Brandon Brown:And that was my cue not to attend or watch a school board meeting
Brandon Brown:for the entire four months.
Brandon Brown:Now, I would hear what was set afterwards.
Brandon Brown:I would, get maybe some clips sent to me.
Brandon Brown:One of the speakers in that meeting had a giant picture of my face,
Brandon Brown:and she ripped it up for the camera and she said He is the real enemy.
Brandon Brown:that was actually one that my team didn't even tell me about until months later.
Brandon Brown:So that was kind of the, the, the kind of tone and center.
Brandon Brown:And then if you fast forward about two and a half months, it was a Saturday
Brandon Brown:morning, I was taking my kids to the gym to play basketball, and I was notified of
Brandon Brown:a serious threat on my life on Facebook that was accompanied with my home address.
Brandon Brown:Hmm.
Brandon Brown:And that was the first time where, like the social media threats didn't
Brandon Brown:seem real to me until that one, and it just, I just, it just, it
Brandon Brown:just really hit, really hit home.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:So I had a, I had a long conversation that day with my wife and, we were
Brandon Brown:able to talk with our board and.
Brandon Brown:Had to get security at our house.
Brandon Brown:and we started, monitoring social media threats and so that was kind of the
Brandon Brown:last couple of months of the session.
Brandon Brown:and then the last kind of thing that really sticks out to me is it was
Brandon Brown:the day of the floor vote and the Senate for the property tax sharing.
Brandon Brown:Bill and I came to the State House, and just got, just got accosted
Brandon Brown:by a mob of union folks, who just said the most vile things and they,
Brandon Brown:just like had a camera in my face.
Brandon Brown:They were, streaming it live on social media.
Brandon Brown:Were just saying crazy things and, and for the first time I felt like I was a
Brandon Brown:distraction at State House and I just made the decision to leave that day.
Brandon Brown:and then a few weeks later I was, I was driving in for the committee
Brandon Brown:hearing on the facilities and transportation bill, and I got a call
Brandon Brown:from our VP of policy while I was on my way to the State House and.
Brandon Brown:She said, Hey, boss, probably shouldn't come in today, because you're gonna get
Brandon Brown:swarmed and it's gonna be a distraction.
Brandon Brown:And that was the one time where I, I think I almost started crying in the car.
Brandon Brown:And I was like, man, I can't even show my face at the State House.
Brandon Brown:And I literally turned around and I went back to the office,
Brandon Brown:and then from there on, only went to the State House when I had a
Brandon Brown:private meeting with a legislator that was not gonna be in public.
Brandon Brown:Right.
Brandon Brown:So, just kind of three specific examples of a, of a series of, real
Brandon Brown:challenges over four months that you knew this was gonna be hard, but you
Brandon Brown:didn't really, know the extent of it until you actually experienced it.
Jed Wallace:So much so that your board said to you this summer,
Jed Wallace:wouldn't it be good if you could get some time to charge your batteries?
Jed Wallace:Am I, am I accurate in that?
Brandon Brown:Yes.
Brandon Brown:And thank God, mm-hmm.
Brandon Brown:that's another thing too, like.
Brandon Brown:Our board was so good during all of this.
Brandon Brown:They, knew the plan.
Brandon Brown:They, they agreed with the plan and they were steadfast, that we were,
Brandon Brown:that we were not gonna back down and then whatever, me and the team needed
Brandon Brown:to feel supported along the way.
Brandon Brown:They were, just, just tremendous, And I, and I think that's one of my reflections
Brandon Brown:too, like, this couldn't have happened without, the leadership of our board
Brandon Brown:without the leadership of, civic leaders in the community who might not have been
Brandon Brown:out front, but certainly had our back.
Brandon Brown:And, certainly we're not gonna get weak need.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:just because left wing socialists, like made this their
Brandon Brown:recruitment issue this year.
Brandon Brown:Right.
Brandon Brown:so it was, it was, really good to hear every once in a while from
Brandon Brown:big time leaders in our community, who might not have been public
Brandon Brown:on this issue, but we're sending,
Brandon Brown:Notes of encouragement were, randomly making a phone call on a Wednesday
Brandon Brown:afternoon just to ask how you were doing.
Brandon Brown:And
Brandon Brown:Yep.
Brandon Brown:That kind of leadership in our community was, was quiet and, not seen broadly,
Brandon Brown:but it was, extremely impactful for me.
Jed Wallace:And really at the heart of it, you, you get called all these
Jed Wallace:things, you endure this treatment because you had the temerity to
Jed Wallace:suggest that charter school students should be funded at the same level
Jed Wallace:as other public school students.
Jed Wallace:Isn't that the crux of it?
Jed Wallace:And, and essentially being willing to just say that unapologetically is what resulted
Jed Wallace:in this kind of treatment coming your way.
Jed Wallace:Am I right?
Jed Wallace:That's
Brandon Brown:right, that's right.
Brandon Brown:At the core of it, that's what we were advocating for.
Brandon Brown:The reality is that within ipss geography, 68% of black students,
Brandon Brown:65% of low income students.
Brandon Brown:60% of Latino students attend charter schools and they're being discriminated
Brandon Brown:against the tune of $8,000 a kid.
Brandon Brown:All we were asking for is for those kids to be treated fairly, and we
Brandon Brown:were willing for it to be phased in.
Brandon Brown:Over time.
Brandon Brown:We, we were willing to make accommodations to ensure that the
Brandon Brown:existing incumbent system, have the ability to transform itself as well.
Brandon Brown:But at its core, what we were advocating for is let's treat all kids fairly.
Brandon Brown:And in this case, the students that we were advocating for were
Brandon Brown:historically marginalized kids.
Brandon Brown:So, yes, it is ironic that those were the accusations.
Brandon Brown:when you think about what it was that we were actually advocating for,
Jed Wallace:one of the most bewildering discussions I had to have again
Jed Wallace:and again, was with our own base, with our own funders, maybe some
Jed Wallace:advocacy partners that would just suggest that we were to us them.
Jed Wallace:Can't you find a way to get this done without becoming, as us them
Jed Wallace:as you're reported to be right now?
Jed Wallace:And boy, that was challenging.
Jed Wallace:And I know that you had your moments too, perhaps in Indianapolis, I think
Jed Wallace:across the entire country where, what I would describe as CharterFolk, people
Jed Wallace:from our own world, our own reform world, saying, Brandon, what are you doing?
Jed Wallace:Uh, you're making things worse there.
Jed Wallace:There's a toxic narrative that is coming out of this that really
Jed Wallace:was all but a verbatim, repeat of the us them conversations I had.
Jed Wallace:Am am I right that in fact many in our own world, saw what you
Jed Wallace:were doing in, in those terms?
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:So we got, a lot of feedback in particular the first month when it
Brandon Brown:became, clear what the agenda was.
Brandon Brown:And, I would say that it was mixed.
Brandon Brown:It got a, lot of notes of encouragement.
Brandon Brown:a lot of folks were, super excited about.
Brandon Brown:What we were doing.
Brandon Brown:And then I would say, generally third hand, Jed, I would hear
Brandon Brown:that, not everybody agreed.
Brandon Brown:And you know what, at the end of the day, that's fine.
Brandon Brown:And, I think that we actually listened to multiple voices, and, tried to use
Brandon Brown:that to refine what we were doing.
Brandon Brown:One thing that was instilled in me when I joined the MIND Trust, and one thing
Brandon Brown:that I've tried to carry with me in this role is we value our funders and
Brandon Brown:we see them as partners in this work.
Brandon Brown:And we're gonna go them with, challenges, what's going well
Brandon Brown:and what's not going well.
Brandon Brown:There's never gonna be a surprise.
Brandon Brown:So, all of our major funders, knew our strategy well in advance, and
Brandon Brown:have the opportunity to weigh in.
Brandon Brown:But it's also really important to be in the mind trust that we're
Brandon Brown:gonna pursue our theory of change in the way that we and our community
Brandon Brown:believe it should be pursued.
Brandon Brown:And we're gonna take feedback from all comers, but we're not going to prioritize
Brandon Brown:a funder's feedback over somebody else.
Brandon Brown:And we're not going to change what we're doing solely based on
Brandon Brown:what we're hearing from funders.
Brandon Brown:And I think, if you end up developing a track record of being honest
Brandon Brown:and upfront following throughout on what you say you're gonna do,
Brandon Brown:you don't have to win every time.
Brandon Brown:But as long as that translates into.
Brandon Brown:Wins over time, then ultimately, I think that that puts you in a
Brandon Brown:stronger position with funders.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:versus you kind of blowing with the wind, depending on who you talked
Brandon Brown:to last and, many of the critics who thought we were being too brash and,
Brandon Brown:a little bit too, too far out there.
Brandon Brown:we're also very quick to celebrate the wins.
Brandon Brown:Right.
Brandon Brown:to let us know, how amazing the progress was, and how they're with us.
Brandon Brown:Right.
Brandon Brown:So, ultimately I think it takes a level of confidence that, everybody's not
Brandon Brown:going to agree with you, and that's fine.
Brandon Brown:You don't need the support, but you gotta be convicted in what you're doing and you
Brandon Brown:gotta be grounded in your local context.
Brandon Brown:And look, we're 20 years into this with mine trust.
Brandon Brown:Like
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:This would not have flown in 2006 when we were founded.
Brandon Brown:Right.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:This was a methodical, intentional.
Brandon Brown:Two decade long effort.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:That started well before me and those conditions ended up
Brandon Brown:creating the opportunity in 2025.
Brandon Brown:Yep.
Brandon Brown:To go back.
Brandon Brown:Right.
Brandon Brown:So it would've been foolish for us to do, you know, any of the
Brandon Brown:scope of what happened this year until the conditions were right.
Brandon Brown:So you actually, you know, also have to be opportunistically
Brandon Brown:patient to wait for the window.
Brandon Brown:But once the window opens.
Brandon Brown:I've learned you gotta sprint and you gotta sprint as hard as you can because
Brandon Brown:that window's gonna close eventually.
Brandon Brown:And you don't wanna look back one day and say, damn, I wish we would've
Brandon Brown:sprinted harder while we have that
Jed Wallace:window open.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Jed Wallace:So as we started the discussion, trying to encourage us to step into
Jed Wallace:another level of courageousness, there's courage all over the place.
Jed Wallace:you know, I consider my posse, the, you know, my closest posse, the
Jed Wallace:CEOs of these state associations.
Jed Wallace:And, you know, I just stand in, in just real awe and respect for what
Jed Wallace:these folks are bringing to this work.
Jed Wallace:and their jobs are impossible and I love 'em and all that.
Jed Wallace:Okay.
Jed Wallace:and also I feel like there's another level of courageousness that's needed
Jed Wallace:and I'm just trying to like, unpack.
Jed Wallace:What it is that might be holding us back from that, that next chapter,
Jed Wallace:let, would you mind if I just pause it a few things and then just see
Jed Wallace:which of them most resonate with you?
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Jed Wallace:One of them is a sense that the charter school
Jed Wallace:world is vulnerable right now.
Jed Wallace:We're politically vulnerable right now, and if we do anything that is
Jed Wallace:controversial, by definition, we're gonna be sacrificing a few other supporters.
Jed Wallace:And so if you're an advocate and you're out there doing something
Jed Wallace:controversial, by definition you, you must be bad at your job.
Jed Wallace:You must be unwise.
Jed Wallace:That, that's, that's one.
Jed Wallace:A second one.
Jed Wallace:And this gets to be more city specific than state specific.
Jed Wallace:though I can probably point to a few state examples as well, but
Jed Wallace:a lot of our city people, they used to work in school districts.
Jed Wallace:Yeah, they used to have, or, or some of their closest friends are there
Jed Wallace:still, or they have a theory of change that requires the district to do
Jed Wallace:something in partnership terms as well.
Jed Wallace:And so if the full critique is, is asserted well, people feel as
Jed Wallace:though that's gonna damage the relationship, it's gonna make the
Jed Wallace:district less likely to work with us.
Jed Wallace:I think there are other places where there's just a simple
Jed Wallace:reflexive risk aversion.
Jed Wallace:Just risk aversion generally.
Jed Wallace:and also I don't feel like, especially the boards of our
Jed Wallace:advocacy organizations, it sounds like the Mindt Trusts board had
Jed Wallace:had this conversation in advance.
Jed Wallace:Yes, we knew what was going and we knew this was gonna be risky, but we're
Jed Wallace:consciously willing to take that risk.
Jed Wallace:I feel like some boards just don't really talk about, are we consciously
Jed Wallace:choosing less risk 'cause that's the wise thing to do, or are we simply avoiding
Jed Wallace:it because we don't wanna take on, you know, that level of stress right now.
Jed Wallace:So those are three things I posit, maybe you can comment all three of 'em, or maybe
Jed Wallace:you can comment on the one that like most re you know, most resonates with you.
Jed Wallace:What.
Jed Wallace:What, what might be preventing us from taking that next step of courageousness?
Brandon Brown:Yeah, so I think your point about relationships is, is
Brandon Brown:really important and it's resonant.
Brandon Brown:So we actually have a long history of working very closely with our
Brandon Brown:school district here in Indianapolis.
Brandon Brown:you know, about 40% of our charters are actually in close
Brandon Brown:partnership with our district.
Brandon Brown:and the superintendent is a TFA alum.
Brandon Brown:She was a school leader at kipp.
Brandon Brown:She was the architect of much, much of the innovation schoolwork.
Brandon Brown:you know, I've been good friends with her now for over 15 years.
Brandon Brown:She, she onboarded me into my first job at TFA, deeply love and respect Alicia.
Brandon Brown:And the reality is like we haven't agreed on on much the last few years and, Right.
Brandon Brown:That's hard.
Brandon Brown:And it's.
Brandon Brown:You know, I, I, I, you know, feel it in my bones sometimes.
Brandon Brown:and there are a lot of relationships like that at the school district.
Brandon Brown:there are a lot of relationships like that on the school board.
Brandon Brown:There are relationships like that at the legislature.
Brandon Brown:I know many democrats personally, who I have deep, deep, deep respect for
Brandon Brown:who voted in the Senate to close 70% of charter schools because they were mad
Brandon Brown:about the property tax sharing bill.
Brandon Brown:so the reality is you, when you get into advocacy, those relationships
Brandon Brown:are actually really important.
Brandon Brown:And I think that they can be a strength.
Brandon Brown:I think they can also be to your detriment.
Brandon Brown:and I think as a society, I'm not gonna make any grand political
Brandon Brown:announcements here, but we've collectively lost the ability to
Brandon Brown:separate the policy from the person.
Brandon Brown:And we've forgotten that we can vehemently disagree with somebody on a policy and
Brandon Brown:still love and respect them as a person.
Brandon Brown:And I can't speak from my friends at IPS, but I deeply love and
Brandon Brown:respect a lot of people at IPS.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Jed Wallace:Right.
Brandon Brown:And we actually probably agree on a lot of things.
Brandon Brown:Yep.
Brandon Brown:But the last few years we haven't agreed on the big things.
Brandon Brown:Yep.
Brandon Brown:And this is just a season that you have to be ready for and that's hard.
Brandon Brown:It's like one thing to say that you like over a drink or it's one thing
Brandon Brown:to say it, when you're interviewing for these jobs, it's another thing
Brandon Brown:to actually do it when you're in it and live with the consequences of.
Brandon Brown:Either, harming long-term relationships or potentially losing them forever.
Brandon Brown:And you just have to be okay with that.
Brandon Brown:And it's lonely, right?
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:And you, and you feel like the whole world's against you.
Brandon Brown:They're not, you feel like, everybody in your community's out to get you.
Brandon Brown:It's a small number of people.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:Right.
Brandon Brown:And you just have to keep perspective.
Brandon Brown:And then I feel strongly about this, when all is said and done, I'm
Brandon Brown:gonna get a drink with Alicia and we're gonna have a great conversation.
Brandon Brown:Right.
Brandon Brown:And we're gonna look back and say, look, that was rough.
Brandon Brown:That was, that was, that was really hard.
Brandon Brown:But ultimately, because of the give and take and because of the work on
Brandon Brown:all sides, like, kids are better off.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:And I, I strongly believe that I, I also think kind of politically
Brandon Brown:just brass tacks politics, right?
Brandon Brown:A lot of the opportunities I think are in blue cities and red states,
Brandon Brown:which means that an effective city-based advocate, you have to have
Brandon Brown:relationships on the right and the left.
Brandon Brown:Right?
Brandon Brown:Yep.
Brandon Brown:'cause in a Blue City and Red State Power is held locally by Democrats
Brandon Brown:and at the state level Republicans.
Brandon Brown:Yep.
Brandon Brown:And in Indy we're kind of, we're kind of unique, but I think it's replicable the
Brandon Brown:fact that the mayor's office has been the major charter school authorizer.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:And, you know, most of our mayors have been Democrat.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:has really made it okay to be a local, elected official in
Brandon Brown:power with a d next to your name.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:Actively support charter schools.
Brandon Brown:It also helps that the teacher's union doesn't really play in local elections
Brandon Brown:here, so they're more, you know, free to vote their conscience, where that's
Brandon Brown:not the case for the State House, but.
Brandon Brown:We have great close relationships on the left and the right at the Mind trust.
Brandon Brown:And I think some of that is because we try as hard as we can, not to view
Brandon Brown:ourselves as a member of a political party first and the charter advocate second.
Jed Wallace:Yep.
Brandon Brown:Advocate for great schools first.
Jed Wallace:Yep.
Brandon Brown:And we try to ask the question, what is the political
Brandon Brown:coalition to get to where we want to go?
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:And,
Brandon Brown:and we do want to be agnostic on if it's right, left, or center, because
Brandon Brown:this is ultimately is about power and it's about who holds power where.
Brandon Brown:And in a blue city and red state, it's a forcing mechanism to ensure
Brandon Brown:that you've got relationships on all sides of the aisle.
Brandon Brown:And that you are thinking strategically around how do you build
Brandon Brown:the coalition to get you the win.
Brandon Brown:And I think that's gotta be separate from relationships, because if it's
Brandon Brown:not, then you're gonna get paralyzed and you're gonna always be scared of
Brandon Brown:your own shadow because you're gonna be afraid of making somebody upset with you.
Jed Wallace:I wanna come to this, question of blue, red and to,
Jed Wallace:and to what extent we, what we might have learned in Indianapolis.
Jed Wallace:Is transportable to other environments.
Jed Wallace:Where is it not?
Jed Wallace:Lemme just make one comment about personal relationships.
Jed Wallace:Ray Cortina, former superintendent at LA Unified and kind of an ed reform
Jed Wallace:hero, he, he became my mentor at some point, and I will do any, you know,
Jed Wallace:I just, I would do anything for Ray.
Jed Wallace:He had done so many great things for me.
Jed Wallace:And he also was appointed back into LA Unified as superintendent the
Jed Wallace:same week that they announced that I had become the CEO at, at CCSA.
Jed Wallace:So he had me up to Pasadena to his favorite restaurant, and I sat down
Jed Wallace:and we had, you know, we just, we were already very friendly with each other and
Jed Wallace:I congratulated him on having been chosen to run the largest CMO in Los Angeles.
Jed Wallace:And, the laughter, the bellowing laughter across this restaurant, everybody turned
Jed Wallace:and said, what's going on with this guy?
Jed Wallace:But I will say.
Jed Wallace:One of the hardest calls I ever made professional calls, at least, in my
Jed Wallace:life, was to tell Ray that we were suing Los Angeles Unified on Prop 39.
Jed Wallace:That was after years of him doing other, other things, especially on
Jed Wallace:special ed, courageous on special ed, and all, some, some other things
Jed Wallace:like the public school choice process of 2011, really, you know, reasonable.
Jed Wallace:but on this Prop three nine piece, the district simply wasn't doing it.
Jed Wallace:And that's what we had to do.
Jed Wallace:And I will say it had a long-term effect on, on raising my relationship that I
Jed Wallace:still kind of regret to this, to this day.
Jed Wallace:And yet I know that's a part of what was expected of me, given
Jed Wallace:that I was, I was in that role.
Jed Wallace:but.
Jed Wallace:Conditions are different.
Jed Wallace:Conditions really are different.
Jed Wallace:I don't think you and I are, are suggesting that what's going
Jed Wallace:on in Indianapolis is gonna work in New York City is gonna work in Los
Jed Wallace:Angeles, especially blue context.
Brandon Brown:Right.
Jed Wallace:where blue cities within blue states, but there may be some things
Jed Wallace:here that you do think are transportable.
Jed Wallace:what, what would you share on that topic?
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:I, I've, I've written a bit on this too.
Brandon Brown:I just firmly believe, and it's, and it's not actually rocket science,
Brandon Brown:that to, to advance charter school policy in a red state, you have to be
Brandon Brown:in a broad school choice coalition.
Brandon Brown:And that doesn't, mean that, charter advocates have to ascribe
Brandon Brown:to, everything relative to.
Brandon Brown:Vouchers and ESAs.
Brandon Brown:It doesn't, mean that, but it does mean for you to be successful in a
Brandon Brown:red state, you, you almost certainly have to be in coalition with the
Brandon Brown:folks that have the most influence and power at the state level.
Brandon Brown:And, since, since COVID that politically has oftentimes been
Brandon Brown:with private school choice.
Brandon Brown:but it's, it's interesting the number of charter school policy wins the last few
Brandon Brown:years has been enormous and it's grown.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:So I reject the notion that private school choice advancements
Brandon Brown:come at the expense of charter schools.
Brandon Brown:I actually don't think we have any evidence of that.
Brandon Brown:I actually think it can be an accelerant if you create the right coalition.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:And you're smart about it.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:So I think, one thing in red, that's what I'm,
Jed Wallace:that's one of, of starling's refrains again and again,
Jed Wallace:that, you don't see this as either or that accelerant may the best and, and,
Brandon Brown:and, so then the question is, okay, so if, so if,
Brandon Brown:so if you're a city-based advocate.
Brandon Brown:Who is in a deep blue context, which most of us are.
Brandon Brown:How do you, how do you then influence that, that kind of, right of Center
Brandon Brown:School Choice Coalition that is the opposite political base, right.
Brandon Brown:That you're dealing with every day in your city.
Brandon Brown:And that's hard.
Brandon Brown:And I think it became harder, quite frankly, in the age of Trump, because
Brandon Brown:you've got a lot of folks in the charter.
Brandon Brown:We are, we are very politically homogenous.
Brandon Brown:We've got a lot of good Democrats who, who don't want to be associated.
Brandon Brown:Republicans because of, what that might mean and the
Brandon Brown:connections that, might be made.
Brandon Brown:And I look, I understand that I can, I completely only completely
Brandon Brown:understand that, but in a blue city, in a red state, that is going to
Brandon Brown:be inherent in the work that we do that is gonna be there regardless.
Brandon Brown:you're gonna be called a shill for billionaires regardless of how
Brandon Brown:hard you go for charter schools.
Brandon Brown:Yep.
Brandon Brown:You're probably gonna be called a racist regardless of what policies you propose.
Brandon Brown:Hmm.
Brandon Brown:So
Brandon Brown:all of that stuff, in a sense, Jed in my opinion, is kind of built in to the job.
Brandon Brown:So if that's built into the job, then why not create the coalitions that are
Brandon Brown:gonna get you the influence that you need to advance your agenda for kids.
Brandon Brown:And I think ultimately that is understandably really hard for people
Brandon Brown:who live in a blue city who, who.
Brandon Brown:Friend group, all lean one way.
Brandon Brown:And then the reality is, for you to be successful at the state level, you have
Brandon Brown:to create coalition with folks who might disagree with you on 95% of the issues.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:And who might, that association then might, feel a certain way in
Brandon Brown:your social circles, et cetera.
Brandon Brown:So I, so I, so I think it's really hard, and I don't wanna say, that it's easy
Brandon Brown:to overcome, but I do think there are a lot of blue cities and red states,
Brandon Brown:like Indianapolis and others that have shown that you can actually do both.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:You can have great local relationships with Democrats and
Brandon Brown:still be a part of a school choice coalition at the State House.
Jed Wallace:So what do you have to s say to people in blue cities and blue states?
Jed Wallace:Uh, is it, Hey, you'd have to run a completely and utterly different strategy.
Jed Wallace:are there aspects of what you have done that you think would
Jed Wallace:work a any, any thoughts there?
Brandon Brown:I actually, and I don't know, maybe I'm,
Brandon Brown:maybe I'm just an optimist, but.
Brandon Brown:I think that there's such an opportunity right now for
Brandon Brown:Democrats and charter schools.
Brandon Brown:if you look at the, trends in national politics, the 2024 data, the fact that
Brandon Brown:the Democrats are, are losing many people of color at, record speeds,
Brandon Brown:the fact that they are now the party of the status quo in education and
Brandon Brown:the fact that Republicans have gone all in with private school choice.
Brandon Brown:What I mean, what a window of opportunity for smarter people than me in blue
Brandon Brown:states to figure out how to square that.
Brandon Brown:And how to make charter schools the reform or a piece of the reform set.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:That the Democrats re-embrace.
Brandon Brown:I think that there is a political incentive for them to do it.
Brandon Brown:I think that there's an incentive to distinguish themselves from Republicans
Brandon Brown:and to draw the line here and not here.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:I think that there, you know, are a lot of really smart, hungry advocates
Brandon Brown:in blue states that can, make, make, make those connections for them.
Brandon Brown:So I'm actually long term, really bullish on charter schools and blue states.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:'cause I think that the politics are converging in a way where it makes
Brandon Brown:the incentive structure very clear and there's a rationale now for
Brandon Brown:Democrats to rebrace charter schools more than there has been since Obama.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Jed Wallace:So I, agree with you entirely.
Jed Wallace:I do think.
Jed Wallace:I think that courage and political acumen really matter here
Jed Wallace:because conditions are different.
Jed Wallace:You could do something that's counterproductive, but my sense
Jed Wallace:is that there's an opportunity for us to drive a narrative.
Jed Wallace:One of the things that drives me the most crazy about the charter
Jed Wallace:school experience in a lot of cities is we might win some school board
Jed Wallace:elections, and then we'll essentially go quiet on, on policy matters.
Jed Wallace:maybe every, there'll be a few charters to vote on
Jed Wallace:renewals and stuff like that.
Jed Wallace:Maybe a one facility issue or something like that.
Jed Wallace:But there really isn't that much discussion at all it during that quiet.
Jed Wallace:The other side of course, calls, charter schools a billionaire,
Jed Wallace:plot everything, two years of just charter schools are toxic.
Jed Wallace:And then we go back to those same school board members and say,
Jed Wallace:will you please step out and be, supportive of charter schools?
Jed Wallace:And they're like, are, are you kidding me?
Jed Wallace:Just, I love you.
Jed Wallace:I love you, but I'm gonna pretend that I don't.
Jed Wallace:The question for me is how do we drive a narrative between
Jed Wallace:elections in those places?
Jed Wallace:And that's where I think our critique really matters.
Jed Wallace:And one of the things I talking to CharterFolk, a lot of them are like,
Jed Wallace:please, please drive a better narrative.
Jed Wallace:But they feel it can be done with positive stories.
Jed Wallace:Maybe we do a few, publications, placements, but I just have to tell
Jed Wallace:them as Heartbreakingly, difficult as it is, we're not gonna drive
Jed Wallace:narrative with anything other than the policy agendas we attempt to advance.
Jed Wallace:And in blue context, if we really uncover the charter school recipe, it
Jed Wallace:resonates deeply with Blue State values.
Brandon Brown:Yes.
Jed Wallace:The question is, can we bring those things in between elections?
Jed Wallace:so I mean, I think you and I have talked about this.
Jed Wallace:I know we're kindred spirits on this kind of, but provide some nuance here.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:So I learned actually in a different context early in my career from a mentor
Brandon Brown:that communications follows substance.
Brandon Brown:That a communications plan void of being in service to what you wanna
Brandon Brown:accomplish is just a waste of time.
Brandon Brown:And I, I think a lot about all the national conferences that a
Brandon Brown:lot of us go to and all of the sessions on, how can we communicate
Brandon Brown:charter schools more effectively?
Brandon Brown:And the amount of money spent on message testing and polls
Brandon Brown:and all that stuff's important.
Brandon Brown:But almost all of those conversations, in my experience, are void of
Brandon Brown:the central question, what is it that we want to accomplish?
Brandon Brown:And then our communication strategy ought to be in service to accomplishing
Brandon Brown:the policy goals that we've established, not the other way around.
Brandon Brown:Right?
Brandon Brown:It shouldn't be the tail wagging the dog.
Brandon Brown:So I think sometimes our communication strategies, like might have a
Brandon Brown:lot of real data behind them.
Brandon Brown:They might sound really good in, like a focus group, but what
Brandon Brown:are they in service towards?
Brandon Brown:Just like school board elections.
Brandon Brown:What does a school board election victory mean?
Brandon Brown:If it doesn't relate, if it doesn't translate into real policy change.
Brandon Brown:So if a school board is supposed to be a reform school board and then
Brandon Brown:votes on a charter school moratorium, they're not a reform school board.
Brandon Brown:Right?
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:So this is true in a lot of places, and it's not even it know necessarily
Brandon Brown:a critique on the organizations that are working to get people elected.
Brandon Brown:But it's a mindset shift that we can't, in my mind, message
Brandon Brown:our way to, a proactive win.
Brandon Brown:We can't get people elected and sit on our hands for two years, and
Brandon Brown:then ask them what they did for us.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:We actually have to have, and I printed it out and I know that this is gonna
Brandon Brown:look really corny, but like start, I said that to my team yesterday and I
Brandon Brown:printed it out, but like, you gotta start with what's the vision, what's the,
Brandon Brown:I don't care what you call it, right?
Brandon Brown:So the North star, the vision, whatever it is, there's gotta
Brandon Brown:be something there that is.
Brandon Brown:Bold and that is inspiring.
Brandon Brown:And then as you said, you have to actually figure out, okay,
Brandon Brown:what's the implementation plan?
Brandon Brown:What's the agenda to help us effectuate the vision?
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:And then let's create messaging and a comms plan, in an
Brandon Brown:outreach strategy around that.
Brandon Brown:rather than pull test our way to a certain set of key phrases.
Brandon Brown:Be scared as hell to say the phrase Charter school.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:And then, message your way to nothing.
Brandon Brown:So I, I just couldn't agree more that you gotta start with substance, you gotta
Brandon Brown:start with Vision North Star policy.
Brandon Brown:And then let's figure out, how to develop a messaging strategy.
Brandon Brown:That will make it more possible to achieve our North Star?
Jed Wallace:Well, I could be wrong.
Jed Wallace:There could be other, north Stars that I'm just not giving enough credit to.
Jed Wallace:but I do as, stay on the land, look on the outlook, Hey, where are they?
Jed Wallace:Uh, and you guys, you guys clearly have one in Indianapolis.
Jed Wallace:I think it's just astonishing.
Jed Wallace:I also think that the MIND Trust has now.
Jed Wallace:More than a decade.
Jed Wallace:I can go back through, the Indianapolis Star and I can find you
Jed Wallace:guys on a one over and over again.
Jed Wallace:And I also can see the editorials and the, and the letters to the
Jed Wallace:editor that were written thereafter.
Jed Wallace:Almost every time that the, my trust was on the A one with some bold
Jed Wallace:effort to reform the, the school district, the response was always,
Jed Wallace:how dare you, are you kidding me?
Jed Wallace:Just the fury that came against the folks.
Jed Wallace:And then you look two years later, they're taking steps in that very direction.
Jed Wallace:And this is where I think the courage thing really matters.
Jed Wallace:'cause it's the courage to ride through this, the 12 to 18 months
Jed Wallace:of being the anathema in town, to have the sense of confidence though
Jed Wallace:that on the other side of that.
Jed Wallace:A more receptive audience awaits us.
Jed Wallace:can you add your, any other, addition you would offer to what
Jed Wallace:the value of a North Star would be in different, in different places?
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:So I, so I think that's really right and I think a lot about the concept
Brandon Brown:of an, of an Overton window where you have to expand the universe of
Brandon Brown:what people think is mainstream and what people think is actually Yeah.
Brandon Brown:Oh, I love that.
Brandon Brown:I love that.
Brandon Brown:Right?
Brandon Brown:So if, if the suite of legislative reforms in 2025, and if our north star of
Brandon Brown:a system of autonomous schools that are held accountable, blah, blah, blah, blah,
Brandon Brown:was, was put forth when the MIND Trust was founded in 2006, which a version of it.
Brandon Brown:Was honestly.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:it would've been met with ridicule and laughs and, oh, that's cute.
Brandon Brown:and then you think about the Opportunity Schools report that we
Brandon Brown:put out in 2011 that is still on our website, it called for two things.
Brandon Brown:It called for Opportunity Schools, which a few years later became Innovation Schools.
Brandon Brown:Sure.
Brandon Brown:And it called for the mayor to be in charge of IPS, which is now on the table
Brandon Brown:as the Indianapolis Local Education Alliance manages through its work.
Brandon Brown:So in 2011, that thing was political suicide.
Brandon Brown:They literally had to lock the doors of the mine trust and like leave
Brandon Brown:for a couple days when they released it because people hated it so much.
Brandon Brown:Right.
Brandon Brown:And again, even in, even in reform circles, oh, that's cute.
Brandon Brown:another idea by the mind trust not gonna happen, but.
Brandon Brown:You expand the Overton window, you expand what can be mainstreamed, what
Brandon Brown:can be possible, and you do it over time and then you just chunk it out, right?
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:And then you get to a point where 20, 25 years later, it might seem like a
Brandon Brown:full generation, but you've collectively and methodically transformed a system.
Brandon Brown:And I think that's, that's what a North Star means to me.
Brandon Brown:It's not like, here's our legislative agenda, or it's not, like, here's
Brandon Brown:our three year, strap plan.
Brandon Brown:It's what's our 20 year vision for what's possible for public
Brandon Brown:school students in our community?
Brandon Brown:And let's drive towards it year after year after year after year to expand the
Brandon Brown:Overton window, to expand what's possible.
Brandon Brown:And eventually you wake up and you're holy crap.
Brandon Brown:we're getting, really close to this thing.
Brandon Brown:And it turns out it's not that controversial when you get down to the
Brandon Brown:impact it has on kids and families.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:if you pull, charter school is in Indy, right?
Brandon Brown:Overwhelmingly positive in particularly families that we're serving.
Brandon Brown:So you also have to put into context those loud voices that called me names
Brandon Brown:and put crazy things on social media are a fraction of 1% of our community.
Brandon Brown:Right?
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:They're, they're definitely not the parents that we're serving.
Brandon Brown:So, so you just also gotta put the noise in context.
Brandon Brown:And if you have a north star and if you're convicted about that North
Brandon Brown:star, you just gotta drive through it.
Brandon Brown:Yeah.
Brandon Brown:And just continue to make progress over time.
Brandon Brown:That progress will snowball and it will result in, something
Brandon Brown:really big and meaningful.
Brandon Brown:But it's certainly not gonna happen over a year or two or three.
Brandon Brown:It's gonna happen over time, maybe even a generation's worth of time.
Brandon Brown:And that's how systemic change happens, in my opinion.
Brandon Brown:and it's how it can be sustainable as well, right?
Brandon Brown:It's not one, it's not one superintendent, it's not one CEO of the mind trust.
Brandon Brown:It's not one elected official.
Brandon Brown:This is a community.
Brandon Brown:Driven change process over years, that results in something
Brandon Brown:much better on the other side.
Jed Wallace:Brandon, I think this is exactly the right place to end this.
Jed Wallace:you've, just been so, courageous over the last year.
Jed Wallace:I think you're also been very helpful in the last hour to help us understand
Jed Wallace:what the experience is like and encouraging us to do new things.
Jed Wallace:So I just wish you well.
Jed Wallace:I can't wait to see what you do next in Indianapolis, and I also can't wait
Jed Wallace:to see what you do next in terms of helping other charter school advocates
Jed Wallace:across the country take that un agnostic, standpoint, which is likely going to put
Jed Wallace:just new octane in the charter school movement, for, for many years yet to come.
Jed Wallace:So, any last thoughts you wanna share or otherwise I just wanna say thank you.
Brandon Brown:No, you know, I just, I just really appreciate you and the work
Brandon Brown:that you're doing to give a microphone to CharterFolk across the country.
Brandon Brown:I mean, I, I, I'm not just saying this because.
Brandon Brown:If you ask me on your podcast, but you know, CharterFolk is the voice of
Brandon Brown:the national charter school movement.
Brandon Brown:It just is.
Brandon Brown:And, you know, you, you giving that microphone out to leaders across the
Brandon Brown:country and, is if, if you weren't doing it would not be happening.
Brandon Brown:If, and you were one of those people that every week or so would
Brandon Brown:send me a text of encouragement and you would say, do not call me.
Brandon Brown:I know that you're busy, but I just wanted you to know I'm thinking about
Brandon Brown:you and I'm really proud of you.
Brandon Brown:And it's that, it's that kind of comradery and community that, you
Brandon Brown:know, keeps a lot of folks going.
Brandon Brown:So I just wanted say thanks for all you do.
Brandon Brown:you know, all of the advice and counsel that you're giving to advocates across
Brandon Brown:the country and for creating space for there to be a, a true national
Brandon Brown:charter school movement that, you know, has a place, to come and to share.
Brandon Brown:Really bold ideas.
Brandon Brown:So thank you.
Jed Wallace:Thank you so much for that, Brandon.
Jed Wallace:You touched me with that.
Jed Wallace:and as you know, we're all at each other's backs, and the courage that we bring is so
Jed Wallace:important and so many people are doing it.
Jed Wallace:So thank you for being an example of it, and thank you for
Jed Wallace:encouraging others to do the same.
Brandon Brown:Thanks.
