If we should train as we fight, where does firearms proficiency sit for protectors both in and outside jurisdictions where carrying one is even a possibility? We are delighted to finally welcome longtime Circuit Magazine Contributor and Firearms expert Orlando "Andy" Wilson to the podcast to discuss:

• Jurisdictional challenges when carrying a firearm both in the United States and internationally
• Best or better practice when handling concealed weapons
• The balance between hobbyist competition shooting and firearms skills relevant to EP
• Possibilities for effective firearms and ammunition training
• Reputational risk from firearms incidents

About Orlando

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The Circuit Magazine is written and produced by volunteers, most of who are operationally active, working full time in the security industry. The magazine is a product of their combined passion and desire to give something back to the industry. By subscribing to the magazine you are helping to keep it going into the future. Find out more >

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The Circuit team is:

• Elijah Shaw
• Jon Moss
• Shaun West
• Phelim Rowe

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If you're in the closed protection business, wherever

you're going, of course you're doing your threat assessments, but part of

your threat assessment is also the legalities of where you're going.

Can you carry firearms well?

What type of firearms?

What type of ammunition?

Are there restrictions on magazines?

Are there restrictions on the type of ammunition

you can carry?

Firearms proficiency in executive protection.

A slightly more international perspective.

Today we are very fortunate to welcome longtime Circuit Magazine contributor

Orlando Wilson to the podcast.

I'm here with John

Moss.

Why is this such an emotive topic,

especially

international?

Uh, we have opened to kind of worms here, haven't we?

This is,

uh, what we're almost two years into the podcast, and

I think this is the first time we've properly

taken this subject on.

Uh, look, you know,

it's, um, some people are really passionate about this.

Tr transcends, work And and it goes into, personal matters,

people's own, belief structures.

And I don't think that's the purpose of the podcast today.

I think we are just here to discuss the role, of firearms within side protection.

And there's, you know, for sure there's a role.

And I think it's gonna be interesting to see with our

guests today, who you know,

is pretty much dedicated,

the majority of his.

Career in private security towards, , the safe and proficient training of firearms.

So it's gonna be really interesting

to get Orlando's

perspective.

Uh, I think all long

term readers of the circuit will already be familiar with a lot of,

Orlando's writing.

And so this should make for

a really good episode.

Yes.

I, I, I agree.

Absolutely.

Cause if you are, uh, a US

based protector and you are either covert or over,

you know, carry armed, right?

Then you have a way of Operating And and that's not quite what we're looking at.

We are

looking at the distinction between possibly international

operators who may never

need, uh, firearms proficiency and

uh, those who, who, who might, and,

and I think that's an interesting distinction to make because otherwise

we get into quite a political.

I think

that, uh, the, the, the, you know, the way in which we can approach

this could look at, uh,

hobbyists, uh, cause you know,

everyone has a hobby.

Everyone likes, uh, or many people like, uh, going down the

range, and real, uh,

prospective, um, employment, uh, needs.

And, and I would argue, and I wonder what you think, John, that it's really

important to do that because otherwise you'll be spending money that you should

otherwise spend On real employable.

On something that is

no doubt entertaining and fulfilling, but not

quite what you're gonna need to get the next

job.

What do you think?

Yeah, well it,

I mean,

that's interesting in itself because when you start, you know, assigning your c.

D dollars at the start of the year and saying, where am I gonna

invest in my training this year?

You should be putting that money to work.

That's my view.

, you should be adding value to yourself, keeping yourself proficient

in all of the areas that you are required to do.

You know,

keep up the, the basic skills ticking the boxes that you need to keep

operating in, depending on, what

country you're in.

And then in addition to

that, you've got a lot of supplementary skills, the kind of things that we've

been discussing recently on the podcast,

About.

How to make yourself a valuable operator in this modern world,

plus, , you're also trying to,

Distinguish yourself and find

your own lane.

And, and.

It's fine to be a hobbyist as well.

It's fine to invest money in things that are just a hobby and a passion for

you and if

it helps keep you sharp, if it helps keep the rest of your skills, at a high

level, then I've got no problem

with that.

But I guess, I think the message

is, do you really want to be focusing all your attentions on

that ahead of, other skills that are perhaps gonna be

better for your employability?

Which is very ver you know, it's a fair point.

And hey, we don't want to

be joy killers and you know, we, we do.

Ourselves, probably enjoy, uh, this, uh, you know, down the range as well.

And, and it, and it is important, uh,

And, and there's great benefits, , as John said, of

course mentally, uh, for focusing

and, and achieving something like pistol shooting or, or competition, shooting.

Absolutely.

However, let's get into it a slightly more international perspective.

Obviously long-term contributor to the

Circuit Magazine uh, let's hear from the man, him.

Orlando Wilson, and we're gonna look at firearms in executive protection.

Firearms in.

Protection.

Today, we're gonna do a deep dive with the one and only Orlando Wilson

Security consultant and great friend of the Circuit Magazine many times.

Contributor is a great pleasure to have you on.

How are you doing?

Good

mate, yourself.

How you been

having a great time?

Lots and lots of events, lots of things going on.

Um, but, but firearms seems like a topic that would probably excite half of our

community who can use firearms and half of them that can't probably go, well, that

seems interesting, but I'd be interested maybe to learn how it applies to my role.

So, so let's get into, What's the problem we're trying to solve with this topic?

What, where are we with the state of firearms in EP today?

The thing is, with firearms,

there's a lot of misconceptions about the use of

firearms in the close protection executive protection world.

What a lot of people don't realize is the vast majority of close

protection jobs are, are unarmed.

As you know, in Europe, in uk, it's virtually impossible for civilians.

It's impossible for civilians to work.

Um, in Europe there are certain countries where people can work armed, but they're

under very, very stringent regulations.

In the US it's a lot easier to work armed and get hold of firearms, but when you're

traveling around, if you're traveling with clients, it's, most of the close

protection jobs are going to be unarmed.

I find it funny and strange, funny, strange, et cetera.

When you see a lot of people, when they're thinking about close protection,

all they're thinking about is armed guards firearms, where it's limited.

Very, very

limited.

And so obviously I'm delighted to have you on Great, uh, long term contributor,

but, but where does your passion for the topic of firearms sort of come from?

Um,

Start off with, I was in the, I've always liked

guns, even when I was a kid.

I ended up joining the military, British military.

Um, we started doing events in Eastern Europe in the nineties, firearms events.

Um, at that time I was mainly doing stuff in Lavia.

I then moved to US and firearms training became part of my business.

So, When I was in the US I worked armed.

I've also provide firearms training courses in the us,

Caribbean, Latin America, middle East, et cetera, et cetera.

So to me, guns are tools and they are part of the business.

I think if you're working internationally, you should know how to use them,

but they're, again, they're not e.

Okay.

Okay.

I, I like that.

And hopefully that will, that'll create a debate already in our listenership.

Oh, oh, yes, I can hear it right now.

Um, but what about the completely uninitiated, the protector who's never

had to work with firearms before?

Uh, what, what should they better understand?

Well, the thing is with firearms, you cannot just go and do, uh,

a few day course and become competent.

It's the same as I put it in.

It's the same as martial.

If to become competent, you have to practice, practice, and practice.

There's no one fix of going and doing a two week course and walking out a firearms

expert because again, there's that many different types of firearms out there

that again, most operate the same way.

Um, the safety rules should be the same, but I've come across guns in the

US or I've come across guns in various places I've never seen before, and

trying to work out how to strip the things down, et cetera is difficult.

So firearms is one of those business, it's a continually learning process

and again, as far as the training is concerned, you have to have the muscle.

you have to know when you pick the weapon up to keep your finger off the trigger.

Most people, when they're not used to firearms, the first thing they do when

they pick a gun up is pull the trigger and it's building up that muscle memory.

And I think one of the issues today, especially in the close protection

world, executive protection world, is people offering quick fit,

quick fix courses for firearms.

People are just wasting their money because again, you are not

gonna learn, become competent with firearms over a two week.

Or a few day period.

All right, so let's address a, a common parlance sort of phrase where,

where people are almost so certain that it is the truth that, that I'm interested

in sort of throwing it out there.

Uh, it, it sort of goes a bit like this.

If you have to draw your firearm, you've bleeped up.

It's a massive, massive failure.

Is that actually the case in, in all cases?

I would say pulling a firearm is an absolute last resort,

and this is where again, it comes into, I see people, and I think, I'm

sure I've said it somewhere, where if things go bad, you've missed something.

A lot of times you have missed something, but there again, you've

got the things that can go bad on the street, the things you cannot an.

The things or working in an environment where you don't have

control of that environment.

And I can think of a few cases where it's like things go bad.

You just happen to be there, so you're gonna have to defend yourself.

Yes.

Pulling a farm is a last resort.

And I think a lot of people, especially in the US and I'm not bashing the Yanks,

um, instead of trying to deescalate a situation, they go straight to firearm.

I've seen this with people when I've been doing courses, et cetera.

If somebody's carrying a firearm, if there's a problem, the first thing

they're gonna do is go for that firearm.

If they're carrying even, let's say pepper spray an extendable bat.

If there's an issue, they're gonna go straight to that weapon

instead of thinking how deescalate.

So to me, again, it is not just learning how to use the firearms, and this is

one thing I have issues with these days.

A lot of people, it's all competition shooting.

The majority of the stuff that's been thrown into being classed

as defensive shooting these days is competition shooting.

Very few people talk about you have to, the thing, it's getting

to the point of drawing that.

There's a lot that needs to go on and people need to be taught about how

to deescalate, how to be streetwise, how to be aware of what's going on

around you, how to avoid the problem.

And it's not just about carrying a gun and shooting people.

That is an absolute last resort.

But again, the issue is these days, and we mentioned something about this just

now, people want to be entertained and it's more fun running around shooting

guns than is sat down actually learning.

Um, what it takes to avoid a problem and if you're in a potentially hostile

situation, how to deescalate before in a firearm or any type of weapon.

Absolutely.

Cause I could well imagine as a, as a layperson, a, a show of force

is not a show of force in the way that the person imagines it.

It's a, it's a sort of a , a red flag to a bull.

In some

places it can escalate, and this is where it's like, In a lot

of the states, in the US it's, you cannot use a gun to intimidate people

and the laws change all the time.

You've got how many different states where, how many did different

rules, but you cannot use a gun.

I think they changed the law in the state of Florida, but the law there

was, you could not use a gun to threaten somebody if you used the, if you

pulled a firearm, you're the shoot.

And I know other people say, we can't say shoot to kill.

Well, you had to shoot to kill.

You couldn't shoot to hurt people.

Cause.

It could be classed as you are torturing the person, you're

not in fear for your safety.

So again, this is where just pulling a gun out and flashing it,

one can escalate the situation.

And two, you could be breaking the law.

So you have to understand the laws of the country you're in, in the us, the state

you're in, because they vary greatly.

But.

I tell people, if you pull a gun, use it.

Otherwise, don't pull the gun.

The gun stays holster.

That's it, and you do everything possible to avoid the problem.

Don't get in the situation in the first place.

And so you, you alluded to some of the training out there that

yeah, may well be fun, but it may be more akin to competition shooting and

targets and clay pigeons and things.

So, so how could one look at a curriculum and go, yeah, this is actually legit.

What, what are some of the features they should look for?

I would

say the first thing I wanna look at is what is, what is

the experience of the instructor?

Because there's a lot of, let me ask you a question now.

You might know the answer.

How long do you think it takes to become an nra, national Rifle

Association Pistol instructor?

How long?

I would hope 10,000 hours, but I, I, I, I don't know.

It's a one day course.

Oh, . Okay.

So.

I've done the qualifications years ago because I taught the

Florida concealed weapons permit.

Its business.

I needed that to be able to teach the courses and get

insurance and everything else.

But there's how many people out there saying they're firearms instructors

that's possibly done a one day course and maybe done a couple of courses

with some other people and that's it.

So before you look at anything, what is the experience of the instructor?

Um, just being in the military, I would say it helps.

But again, most militaries are not hot on using handguns.

I know how many people that's been in the military how many years, and once

we talk about shotguns, which are very prevalent weapon in the firearms world,

they have no clue about shotguns.

So the first thing I would do is look at the qualifications and

experience of the instructor.

Um, if you're looking at the curriculum, all curriculums

should start off with basic.

And safety should be hammered home from day one all the way throughout the course.

But if we're talking about skills for executive protection, then you

need to be, um, I put an emphasis on instinctive shooting, shooting from

the hip, shooting at close quarters.

But we also work people out shooting at distance out to a hundred meters

because again, and I, this is something where a lot of people say, you

cannot shoot out to hundred meters.

You can.

We do it on our courses.

And the reason being, People say, but if you're shooting at that

distance, you should be using a long gun assault rifle, et cetera.

Well, in most places, you cannot carry an assault rifle for security purposes.

You're stuck with pistols and shotguns.

So again, if all you have is a pistol, You need to know the maximum capabilities of

that pistol and also your capabilities, because again, if you are, say a

hostile environment, you got bad guys a hundred meters away, you are gonna

wait for them to get within 15 yards of you or 15 meters, or if you can shoot

a distance, you can put some rounds towards them to keep the heads down so

you can evacuate, et cetera, cetera.

Yeah, so again, once you get into the firearms training, there's a lot to.

, you have to be able, you have to understand the safety, you have to

understand the weapons, you have to understand how to shoot up close,

and also how to shoot at distance.

Mm.

And of course, yeah, part, part, part of that deescalation, even whilst

escalated, I suppose, is putting distance between yourself and the other,

avoid the problem.

If you can avoid the problem again, and this is what I think people don't realize,

as we said earlier, it's entertainment, it's playing games, it's being having a

bit of a fun with people, dress up, they look cool, they put on their pretend

army gear and play security contractor.

The situation on the street is if you're involved in a shooting, somebody's gonna

die or go to hospital and somebody's gonna go to jail in most places.

Even in the US, if you are involved in a shooting, in most states, that's

gonna cost you money cuz you're gonna have to get a lawyer involved

in other countries throughout.

I know how many countries in Europe, even if a cop is involved in the

shooting, they're arrested straight away.

If you are a civilian and you're involved in the shooting and you shoot and kill

somebody, you got big legal problems.

I don't think people understand the consequences.

It's okay having fun with guns.

But they don't understand the consequences.

Or if you're involved in a shooting, you could end up dead.

Somebody else could end up dead.

You could end up in a wheelchair for the rest of your life, or you could end

up in jail for the rest of your life.

And I think that's the main thing that's missing.

Everybody wants to play games, but they don't wanna understand

the realities of carrying

firearms.

And, and, and so does that divide a lot of people?

Two categories.

People with firearms who arely thinking, is it time for me to deploy it?

And those who don't have it, and have to rely on other skills, you know, being,

being a, being a, a martial artist, having another type of, uh, weapon

of opportunity or, or something else.

Yeah, as I

said, it's like if we're talking purely about close

protection, most international close protection jobs are un.

So you have to rely on, uh, being aware of your environment.

And I tell people, you've got weapons around you all the time.

If you can understand how to improvise anything as a weapon.

And I think there's been debates in how many of these, uh, I've

seen online debates about should, uh, close protection, executive

protection personnel, uh, know how to know self defense.

Yeah, you have to a hundred percent.

Cause it's part of the.

And again, I know I can think of how many times you end up in scuffles

because again, it is the things that happen on the street, the things

you cannot predict that happen.

So again, the use of force be armed or unarmed.

I say especially the unarmed side, is essential for close protection.

And so conversely, I think we, we've all seen the videos of people

who seem to come up with miraculous ways of escaping, uh, having a gun

pointed in their face, um, where I don't think those videos are, are good and

representative of what could be done.

But is there any self-defense techniques or any methodologies

that people should look into?

Or is it literally run away?

If so,

this thing is.

This is back down to, and one of my good friends outta Mexico,

Jerry , and we've, he's, he was top fighter, top martial arts guy.

He is now a security manager, et cetera.

I've worked with him how many times, a good friend of mine and we've had

this discussion about the martial arts work and I said to him about a lot

of these techniques and he's, he's a real guy and he said, yeah, it is bs.

But people have to keep coming up with techniques to bring, for

people to keep coming back to their.

So even with the firearms world, it's the same with one thing that annoys me.

Knife defense.

If somebody knows how to use a knife, you're screwed.

And what a lot of people are teaching for knife defense is

complete bs, complete another bs.

We can do a class however long and you can walk out thinking you

actually know what you're doing.

If you come across some little kids, some gypsy kid that knows how to,

how to use a knife, you're screwed.

You're gonna get cut up.

So again, If somebody's pointing a gun at you and they know what they're doing,

they're not gonna allow you to get close enough to them to take the gun off them.

They'll shoot you.

And again, if you look at a lot of a client, but the mentality of

a lot of criminals, especially if we're talking about Latin America,

Mexico, et cetera, they'll kill you.

It's not a game.

It's not roll around on the mats and the nice comy dojo.

. If you meet somebody on the street, they're pointing a gun at you.

The chances are you do as you're told or you're gonna get killed.

Are there things you can do?

Well again, a lot of this will come into what we teach is understanding

the person's body language, maximum use of distractions, and then when you

strike, you strike to end the situation.

But a lot of what I see out there is just techniques.

You're gonna get killed.

All it takes is a little bit of pressure on that trigger and you are, you are shot.

, that's it.

Mm-hmm.

, which I, which I think, you know, obviously is something that I

think we all gut have a gut feeling when we see those Instagram videos

that it's probably not gonna work.

Um, but, but, but I think it's important to bring up, um, so we,

we've touched on legality and, and sort of, um, Areas, uh, where, where

one could or could not practice.

Um, we've touched on the actual firearms you'll have access to,

and we've, we've touched on the sort of the self-defense side.

Is there any merit looking at ammunition and, uh, that type.

Of topic because, because there is a lot of, uh, talk around hollow points

and around armor piercing, uh, things, especially when I used to do my military

events, we would look at B six B seven vehicles and uh, suddenly when

someone would come up with a brand new something tipped something and, you

know, is there anything interesting there to explore in the EP world?

Yeah, and again, a lot of it depends on where you

are and what's legal because.

Even within the US in some states it's legal to carry hollow points.

In some states it's illegal to carry hollow points.

I'll stick my neck out here.

And I think in the state of New Jersey, hollow points are illegal for civilians.

I think law enforcement can carry them, but if you are caught with a hollow

point, you're gonna have big problems, I think, and I'm sure people will

pop up and correct me if I'm wrong.

Um, so.

I see a lot of people saying, oh, you should carry this type of ammunition,

you should carry whatever ammunition.

It depends where you are and it depends what's legal in the US for pistols.

Uh, I under, I believe Arm and Pearson ammunition is now legal.

They've.

The green tips.

That was military grade arm steel cord ammunition.

I think they banned those also because there, there's too many of the AR 15

carbines now that are classed as pistols.

Ah, I tell people when I was, again, legally carrying in the US,

I always mixed up my ammunition.

Follow 0.4, middle jacket, hollow 0.4, middle.

People, if you don't know what a hollow point does, when a hollow

point hits something, it expands its person, hits an object, it expands

and it doesn't over penetrate.

This is where in some places this looks upon as being safer

than four metal jacket rounds.

But the people that's anti-gun come out and say, well, hollow

points are dumb, dumb bullets.

They do, they cause too much trauma when they hit somebody, et cetera.

When other places, they're looked upon as being safer because they

do not over penetrate the target.

I carried hollow point and four jacket mixed rounds, up the four jacket rounds,

solid lead rounds, copper jacket.

Um, they penetrate.

So if I had to shoot through cover, shoot into a car, shoot through drywall,

et cetera, that formal jacket round would penetrate better than the ho.

And even if we're talking about shooting for self defense, if you're

shooting into a person, personally, I'd want rounds that's gonna penetrate

deeper as well as the hollow points.

It's gonna cause more.

So again, a lot of this, when we talk about ammunition in the US, we can,

we can talk about this, we can get the ammunition and I don't think that you

can, I think they've stopped selling, uh, pistol ammunition at Walmart.

But in the day, you could go to Walmart and buy whatever you wanted, right?

But in a lot of places, you have to look into the legalities of

what ammunition is legal carry.

If you're caught with a hollow point, you're gonna have big problems.

And again, if you're working somewhere where you've only.

Four jacket rounds, that's what you're gonna have to work with.

That's it.

But it's understanding the capabilities of those rounds.

And, and should I, as a, as a layperson, you know, um, expect,

let's say I, I was a qualified EP professional, uh, like our listeners,

and I've never worked with firearms before, but somehow I got on a task

in a jurisdiction that it was legal.

Are they gonna supply.

With my equipment or am I gonna be expected to piece it all together myself?

So is this even a problem that the operator's gotta

worry about?

Well, this is the thing.

You're not gonna be able to do it yourself.

If you're in uk, you can't buy firearms.

There are ways, I think it's a Section five license or something.

I'm sure people correct me, you could get a dealer's license in uk, but

that's very, very difficult to get and a lot of background checks very.

And again, I'm sure the police will be knocking on your door on a regular basis

to check your inventory, um, in the us.

Even when I was, when I had guys working there for me, whatever, I expected

people to bring their own firearms.

Everybody should own a

gun.

And would you wanna expect it?

Would you, you wanna go?

Okay.

What have you brought to the party?

Oh, you've brought an Uzi.

That's not funny.

And Oh, you've brought something a bit more sensible.

I I, is that the kind of

conversation?

Yeah.

If we look at it from the US perspective that you can only use

certain firearms within the security.

Um, I was in Florida for how many years.

Once upon a time, security guards, private investigators, et cetera,

private investigators to carry semi-automatics, uh, security

guards still had to carry revolvers.

Now I think they've changed it over to, for security purposes.

Whatever gun you qualify with is the gun you have to carry.

So if you qualify with a 45 semi, that's the gun you're gonna have to carry.

If you want to carry other firearms, then you have to go to the range

and qualify with those guns.

Um, when guys with me brought along their own firearms, yeah, everybody that worked

with me, I'd been to the range before.

They tended to have done my courses before, so I knew they were okay.

But yeah, I would check weapons, ammunition to make sure they're

not carrying any ammunition that's, that could get them

into.

Or, or something like a a, a piece of equipment.

Seemingly innocuous, but it's a bump stop.

So let me tell you a quick, if you got two minutes,

I'll, I'll take a quick story.

An associate of mine I used to deal with years ago on one of the islands

in the Caribbean, there was a guy there, former cop, got involved in

a shooting shot, a guy, a hundred percent justifiable shooting.

When the body went to autopsy, they pulled out hollow points.

The police had not authorized anybody to bring hollow points in on into the island.

There'd been no import permits.

So even though the guy shot the guy a hundred percent justifiable

shooting, he ended up being charged with importing a legal ammunition.

Hmm.

So again, this is where you have to be careful because something like that,

if you use Hollow point where you shouldn't have hollow points, yeah.

You might get away with the shooting.

You can still have to be in charged with a crime.

Yeah.

And, and, and, and that does paint an important picture

because I guess, I guess it's gonna be up to you to prevent yourself

from getting charged and up to your team for making sure that you've.

Half of the regulations that you need covered, but at the end of the day,

it feels like you are on your own.

It's down to you, but again, this is back down to if you're

in the close protection business, wherever you're going, of course you're

doing your threat assessments, but part of your threat assessment is also

the legalities of where you're going.

Can you carry firearms?

What type of firearms, what type of ammunition?

Are there restrictions on magazines?

Are there restrictions on the type of ammunition you can carry?

And this is where you just can't, um, you just can't turn up in certain places

with guns and think, okay, I'm here.

I can carry a gun, and here we go.

Because in most places, firearms are extremely restricted.

And if you, I, I get it all the time in Mexico, okay.

Guns are very, very restricted.

In Mexico, as a foreigner, you're not gonna be carrying a gun, period.

Unless you're working with a narcos, that's it.

So all this stuff you see on the movies about non Mexicans running around with

firearms, shooting the place up, it's all bs, but people believe the movies.

You as a foreigner caught with a firearm in Mexico, if you're caught by the

narcos, they must probably just kill you.

If you're caught by the cops, you better have quite a bit of money

handy to try and get yourself outta jail cause you'll be gonna jail.

And, and, and that, and that perception versus reality

is unfortunate because there, there will be a card of people not yet EP

professionals thinking, yes, absolutely.

This is one of the appeals of becoming, uh, an EP professional.

And they buy into flashy courses.

They buy into lifestyles and they might buy into that, um, which of course we're

trying to dissuade and we're trying to, you know, make the market realize

there is a massive, massive learning.

I see courses in UK where they're going through

simulated firearms training.

It's like, to me, you can carry firearms in uk so why are you

doing simulated firearms training?

And this is where if you're new to the industry, if you don't have military

experience, are you gonna be trusted with firearm to work with firearms somewhere?

It's, it's not gonna happen, but it's people selling a myth.

And I think this is one thing with, how can we put it?

Unscrupulous companies just taking money off people.

Selling a myth.

Um, I'm not gonna make mention too many names about things and courses,

but it's like I, people approach me and ask me, oh, we've done

this course, we've done whatever.

It's like, what's worthless?

You've done a simulator, well, a hostile environment course.

The, it's not worth the paper written on.

You don't have the experience to work in hostile environments.

You've never been in the military.

You.

You might have left England on holiday.

That's about it.

And you expect because you've just done a two week course to be

sent somewhere to stay bodyguard.

But I think a lot of it is people need to be realistic If they're thinking about

getting into this business of, okay, what skills do I need and what's actually

gonna be relevant and not be sold?

Courses that completely irrelevant.

If you wanna work arm these days, there are places you can do it, but you're

gonna have to get on a plane and go.

And again, you need most places, you need work permits, you need visas and

it, that can be problematic in itself.

And again, as, as I said, even if you are going into space like you

are, going into another country with a firearm is very, very difficult.

In most countries, the only people that can own and possess firearms are gonna

be legal residents or legal citizens.

Going in and on a, even on a work permit is not gonna.

So you have to understand the rules and

regulations.

So do you think a more productive thing that we can do is to say to the

industry, just divide your attention.

One side is your hobby and it's competition, pistol shooting or whatever.

Having great time, uh, down at the range, and then your day job and do not

mix your hobby and your day job may.

Maybe that's a, a a hundred percent, a better

way to get 'em to think.

Hundred percent.

And this is one thing, it's like you don't see it so much in Europe because

guns are a lot more restricted, but you see it in the us, uh, guys can go and

become, it's a tactical lifestyle, okay?

And you go buy all the guns, all the equipment, dress up,

go to the range and shoot.

And you see a lot if you go to Vegas.

They got some, apparently some really good gun ranges in.

You see in South Florida, people have their shooting dress.

They dress up to go shoot.

It's their, it's their weekend thing.

It's their lifestyle.

If that's your hobby, best's luck to you 100%.

But don't mix that with the realities of defensive shooting.

Yeah.

Which

I, which I think is a happy medium cuz we acknowledge that

people enjoy, uh, their, their hobby.

It's just, you know, um, but, and I don't know, this is maybe putting you on the

spot, but I've been reading about some future technology that is gonna make

guns even safer and blah, blah, blah.

Smart guns.

Um, these are apparently not just, uh, science fiction, but they will

only respond to the, uh, owner.

They'll be controllable by wifi.

To what extent are they in the common, common, uh, nomenclature, you

know, parlance, um, today, um, are, are smart guns even on your radar?

They've popped up in, I think there's a few states in us.

I've seen it in US people were talking about it, but the thing is you want

to keep things as simple as possible.

Would I be happy with the smart gun?

No, you said wifi.

What if the WiFi's not working?

What if it does the battery's.

And one thing I remember people were selling in the US was biometric safes.

They opened with a thumbprint.

Mm-hmm.

. Yeah.

Touch your thumb.

The safe opens, you can access your gut.

Okay.

As long as your thumb's not dirty, as long as your thumb's not got oil on it.

Because again, any issues the, you couldn't open the safe because

it's not reading your thumbprint.

So this is where everybody's coming up with these new ideas

on how to make guns safer.

The only way you're gonna make guns safer is due to educat.

And people properly know how, knowing how to use firearms.

I had issues in the US because again, US is pro-gun, and I said

to people, okay, everybody that has a firearm, it makes sense to me.

They should do a training course, not just be able to go out and buy a firearm.

And there's how many people in us?

I see a positive in this.

I obviously see the negatives.

There's how many people with no experience a firearms going out and buying AK 40.

Find whatever pistols they want.

Especially with some of the stand your ground laws,

which mean that you can maybe stand your ground at a later date.

I, I know that's controversial, but Yeah, the

stand your ground laws, I'm all for that because they

brought this in in the state of Florida, it just removed your need to.

So you had to show initially what the law used to say that you could only use force

if you could not escape the situation.

You had to retreat, stand your ground, just removed the need to retreat.

So in some ways it made it for justifiable shootings, it made it less complicated.

You are involved in this justifiable shooting.

Okay?

It was justifiable.

No problem.

But what people don't forget, what people forget and what doesn't make the media.

If you shoot somebody and it's not a justifiable shooting a place like Florida,

you're gonna jail for a minimum 30 years.

And it's back down to understanding the law and understanding the consequences.

A lot of the anti-gun people jump on are stand your grounds bad, et cetera.

It's the laws were there in laws were there before.

If the shooting is justifiable, it's justifiable.

This just removes some of the the legal complexities that were on

people, and I take it on the police to.

And then, and then maybe that brings us onto one of

the hotter topics of the last couple of years, uh, for various reasons.

Um, conceal carry.

Yes.

And how one manages to, to do that or not to do that.

Um, I guess does it, does it ultimately matter because you

either have it or you don't have it?

And if you have it and you've concealed it, I mean, it gives

you the element of surprise.

I mean, as a layperson, I'm just thinking what's the, what's what does it matter?

Well, in some states in the US they got open carry, and I'm

not a big fan of open carry because everybody knows you've got a gun on you.

And I think, I'm sure people will correct me in some states, you

don't need a permit open carry.

You need a permit to conceal carry, and the police are happier

people, open carry because they can visually see the person has a.

Where if the gun is concealed, they can't see if the person's harmed or not.

Um, I'm not a big fan of open carry because again, it's very

easy to take farms off people.

And if you see somebody with a gun, okay, that person can be targeted.

I don't want people to know I'm carrying a firearm.

I can't these days cause I'm in Europe anyway.

But when I'm in the O us, I generally carry, um, I don't want people to

know carrying a firearm is there for me to use for self defense as a last.

Um, but I don't see any issues with trained people, legal people that's

gone through the vetting process that's had a federal background check.

I don't see any problem with them carrying or only firearms.

And there's been how many shootings in the US recently, and a lot

of these don't make the media by people with concealed weapons.

Permits have stopped, um, mass shootings.

They prevented other people getting hurt and it doesn't make the media.

For obvious reasons, but, um, I don't see an issue with people

carrying farms for self defense.

I think the laws in UK are too restrictive where you cannot defend yourself.

And I think there's one thing the US has got over, which is a

big positive in certain states.

In the US you can still legally defend yourself, which you can in a lot of other.

Well, no, I appreciate, um, you helping out and, and I, I hope me not

being any way, uh, an EP professional and especially not a firearms professional.

I hope this line of questioning helps some of our more uninitiated

listeners, but I'd like to think it helps some of the more established EP

professionals think, do you know what?

The reason we do X, Y, and Z is, or when we talk about standards or

is a very hot topic, when we are creating the new and c standard in

this direction, then this is in, in inherently what we've gotta consider.

Um, I, I think, I think there is merit to, to this sort of

more, uh, unknowing line of

questioning.

Yeah, sure.

It's, um, by you not understanding the business, you're gonna be more inquisit.

And you're asking questions, would they not gonna be the textbook?

Okay.

The standard question about firearms.

So yeah, I think it's, we've, uh, talked about things from

various angles, which.

I'm laboring the point because the last thing in the world that I need

is for anyone to come down and go, oh, why is he asking these questions?

He's not a firearm specialist.

Well, that's why I'm asking the questions.

And that's why, that's why we have Orlando One.

And Orlando, I know you've written several articles over

the years on this, on this topic.

Um, any, any themes that, that have been constant with what

you've been writing about?

Any, any sort of passions that you, you sort of want people to

direct, uh, uh, you know them to your articles in the magazine?

No, I

think, um, over the years I've written quite a bit for the

Circuit magazine and I'm writing quite a bit on the firearms there, and we're

trying to, I'm trying to put out there the realities of the firearms business

rather than the realities of firearms related to close protection, not just

what looks cool and people thinks cool because there's a big difference between

the realities of current firearms, realities of working with firearms and.

What people see in the movies and on YouTube and on Instagram.

So I'd just say to people is again, the circuit's got some good writers, and I

think a lot of what's in there is the truth, which is hard to find these days.

So people need to, if they're thinking about getting into the close protection

business, especially armed close protection business, is do their research.

As I said earlier, make sure the people you're getting the information

from are qualified and they have the experience to actually give you the

inform.

Well, great advice.

And that is what we are trying to do with the podcast.

We're trying to bring the pages of the magazine to life and here are the

pages we're bringing them to life.

Thank you very much.

Uh, Orlando, um, I, I'd, I'd love for people to reach out to you, um, uh,

how, how can they get a, get ahold of you if, if, if you are open to that?

Yeah,

look me up on LinkedIn.

I've generally throwing stuff up there on daily or a few times a week.

Or just look us up on social media rather.

You gotta look up for me.

Um, using Orlando, Andy Wilson these days or look up Risk

Incorporated, you'll find us.

Fantastic.

Well, thanks very much for coming on.

It's been excellent looking at firearms in the EP industry.

Lots of things I thought I knew and maybe people thought that they completely

understood, but I, but I like unpick it.

So, uh, this has been another fantastic edition of the Circuit Magazine podcast.

Well, thank you very much, Orlando, for setting the record straight, helping us

focus and really distinguish between that which is undoubtedly fun for many and

that which is a priority for your career.

What did you get out of today's session, John?

So, one of the biggest things that I'm hearing is , the

responsibility of , carrying a firearm.

If you're going to.

Pull out your firearm let alone use it.

You already gotta be, assured of what you're doing.

And also, having to be able to stand up in court

and explain your actions for, pulling your firearm but it's

not only that, it's, the optic.

For the principal, his, image as well as, what are you doing to the situation?

Are you in fact escalating this situation?

Was it necessary to pull your firearm?

Was there another way to go about that?

So, so much to think about, it's kind of worms.

And, and I think deescalation as a tactic is, is much more useful.

Um, uh, especially.

In this case.

Um, and, and then I think, you know, it was interesting looking at

different jurisdictions, um, some European jurisdictions where it could

in some way be possible, but then the restrictions are really, really tight.

Some us uh, you know, jurisdictions, which you might imagine are very, uh, open.

But they have a very strict rule, uh, set.

And that I, I think, I think you, you need to think about the personal

effect it could have on you, not just for your work, but you particularly.

Um, plus I really, I really do think there's something, uh, to be said

for separating a desire to shoot pistols at competitions and a desire.

You know, concealed carry or open carry, uh, on, on, on, on task.

Um, cuz, cuz, cuz for some people, and I, myself included, I think

that would be a worthwhile hobby.

What, what do you think John?

Well, yeah, sure.

You know, I mean, if, if that's your hobby, you know, then pursue it.

If that's your passion, if that's something you're into,

you know, just the, the same.

Martial arts or in, in fact, any hobby that's not even related to the protection

go after it, put in everything you want.

But if that is the case, then just ensure that you're also putting funds aside and

time and commitment towards those other areas of your professional development.

Absolutely.

And talking about professional development.

Um, this week, uh, I am going.

To the I psb in Vegas to be professionally developed.

Uh, I am very excited to see a lot of protectors there.

And of course, our co-host, Elijah Shore, will be at the EP forum,

the, uh, the seventh, uh, this week.

So, uh, I think, I think that is a nice segue.

Um, uh, will, will we get to see you out there, John?

Uh, one of these, uh,

Yeah, quite possibly.

I mean, it's.

You know, every time it comes up, like I had covid as a good excuse for the

last couple of years, not to go, uh, this year, it was a consideration,

work for me, took it out of my hands.

However, I, I do think this is one now that is on my calendar and

I'm going to make a greater effort.

I think, it's something to be done at least once, for sure.

Absolutely.

And, and there's gonna be a good, uh, British contingent.

Uh, I know some of our long standing, uh, British friends are, are gonna be there.

I've seen already, uh, that Australian colleagues are

flying over German colleagues.

lots of, uh, old French colleagues I saw as well, Mexican colleagues,

uh, as well as of course, the staple from throughout the states.

So, We hope that, uh, you find time to listen to this podcast this week or

perhaps on the weekend after the show.

, so that's absolutely something we'd love for you to do, and please come say hello

cuz I'm gonna be doing some interviews, uh, during the, uh, event itself.

Which is good news for anyone that wants to have their voice

heard, uh, on the podcast.

Uh, what else, uh, have we got going?

Well, as usual, you know, we have all of our, commitments

with the podcast, with the newsletter, with the magazine.

All of this is going on, as always in the background.

So we'll have a new issue coming out very soon.

obviously the newsletters come out weekly, which is a really good way to, uh, keep.

connected with everything that's happening.

It's our first port of call for getting out information.

Well, actually that's not true.

I suppose the first port of call is always our communities, in BBA

Connect and, the Naba Protector app.

So, check those out.

And then dive into the newsletters

Wonderful.

Well, please do sign up.

Um, I know I like, uh, to read the newsletter even though I kind of have

an inkling what might go into it.

Uh, so, but please do sign up to it.

So, so, so you receive that each week.

Uh, please do stop by at the I psb or the EP forum, uh, to see

either myself or a larger shop.

And, uh, yes.

Thank you very much to Orlando Wilson for today's session.

I know he is working on more fantastic articles for the

Circuit Magazine in, uh, print.

In our.

Addition, uh, on the app and, uh, and, and I really hope that we get to

celebrate these, uh, these weeks going up until Christmas and first of period.

So from John and myself, uh, we've really enjoyed looking at firearms in EP a

slightly more international perspective.

And, uh, this has been a fantastic edition of the Circuit Magazine podcast.