In this special episode celebrating Within People’s 10th anniversary, Jeff Melnyk sits down with Dan Hegarty, a seasoned entrepreneur and COO at Kuda, to reflect on a decade of building and growing businesses. Dan shares his journey, the pivotal lessons he’s learned along the way, and what it really takes to create a company that lasts. Together, they dive into the challenges of scaling a business, the importance of culture and leadership, and finding purpose in the world of Tech.

Whether you’re an entrepreneur, a leader, or someone passionate about business and innovation, this conversation offers real-world insights and inspiration on navigating the highs and lows of the entrepreneurial journey.

Hey, everyone.

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This is Jeff from within.

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Thanks for joining us here in the U.

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S.

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Tech founders have become a daily feature

in our newsfeeds, facing increasing

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scrutiny on how they lead their people,

how they drive business towards growth and

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even how they're influencing government.

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We've been working in the tech sector

since we launched within, and I've been

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coaching tech founders for over a decade.

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So for this edition of our 10th

anniversary series of reimagining

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work from within, I wanted to bring

Dan Haggerty into the conversation.

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Dan is the founder of two fintech

startups in the UK, Habito and Communion,

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and is now working alongside the

founders of Kuda, a Nigerian scale

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up with a purpose of making banking

accessible, affordable, and rewarding

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for all Africans on the planet.

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In my time coaching Dan, I've seen how

he's managed fast growth, put people

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and culture at the front of decision

making, and how he's responded to

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market volatility and uncertainty.

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Dan is not a typical founder.

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Whatever sector you're leading, I hope

his story inspires you to follow your

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ambition and And to use your creativity

to keep you going along the way.

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Dan Hagerty: Oh, one sec, hold on.

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I'll turn on my lamp.

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Jeff Melnyk: Yes.

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Are you going skiing on Wednesday?

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Dan Hagerty: Yes, I'm

going skiing on Wednesday.

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That is going to make me very happy.

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Jeff Melnyk: Just for the weekend?

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Did you just turn that on with your phone?

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Dan Hagerty: Yes, I did.

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Jeff Melnyk: That's ridiculous.

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Dan Hagerty: I've got so much that

like, I have to have it all on like a

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thing so I can turn all the plugs off.

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Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

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Dan Hagerty: Right cool

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Jeff Melnyk: Dan, lovely

to have you on the show.

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Dan Hagerty: Lovely to be here.

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Thanks so much, Jeff.

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Jeff Melnyk: I've been wanting to get

you on the podcast for quite some time.

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And now that we're doing the 10th

anniversary special, it's important

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since I feel like you've been on

within's journey for quite some

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time, but also tech founders are in

the news at the moment quite a lot.

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So I thought we could have a little bit

of a Riff around what you're seeing in

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the, in the tech world especially in how

it relates to our geopolitical environment

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at the moment, but you aren't a typical.

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tech founder.

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You didn't, you didn't get your

start in a garage in Silicon

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Valley , from what I know.

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And there's a bit of urban myths

around tech founders, isn't it?

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That they, they have sort of a

typical way of finding their self

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in foundering, but take us back.

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How did you, how did you

find yourself as a founder?

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Dan Hagerty: This was

a long time ago, Jeff.

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It's a long time ago.

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No, my story is Quite random.

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So I Dropped out of school, when I

was 16 because I got a record deal

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with my terrible derivative punk band

who went on to Not very much success.

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But it did begin a sort of a 10

year period as a, as a musician,

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as a working musician, variably

variously, I should say in bands that

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nobody liked or doing session work

for pop bands that I did not like.

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And I kind of made it, I ended up

living in Los Angeles on the West coast

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and I got, I sort of made it to 25.

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And you know, having even at that, at that

point on the road for nearly a decade and

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I was kind of done, I kind of knew like

it wasn't the right path for me in that,

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like, Nobody wanted to hear the music I

wanted to make and Making music that I

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didn't like for a living just did not seem

like a very smart life path and so I came

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back to the uk just for a summer was my

plan at the very least and a good friend

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of mine a lady called tina baker Who is

one was and still is one of the uk's?

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Sort of a preeminent startup lawyers,

although now retired introduced

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me to another founder and we've

just done his his angel round.

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And I became the fourth employee of

a company called Wonga and thus kind

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of had like in some ways, like the

most kind of violent introduction to.

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It's like the realities of startup

life that you can imagine and

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Jeff Melnyk: yeah, not a tip, not

also not a typical founder and

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in the, in the longest story, but

so, so you, you, you decide music.

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I can't do this right now and we'll

come back to music cause it is still

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a formative part of your world.

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But to, to then go into

something that was quite.

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Quite far.

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So FinTech quite, I would say the

maybe the opposite of a music career.

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Dan Hagerty: Maybe.

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I mean, it's a lot of

asking people for money.

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Jeff Melnyk: Similar to a musician.

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Yeah.

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Dan Hagerty: Yeah.

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You're just the debt collectors

on the other side of the

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relationship as the tree.

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No, it was.

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I think the reality was, and like, I

wish I could say like, you know, being

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mindful and I made a decision that

I wanted to follow a different path.

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It wasn't like that.

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Like I was just sad.

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Like my fiance just dumped me.

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My band was going nowhere.

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I can't remember which end of being

in or out of credit card debt I was

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in at that point, but it wasn't great.

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Like I just, things weren't

like going my way particularly.

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And I just knew I wanted

to try something different.

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And I, and I just remember it incredibly.

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Like, I think my first day it was,

he didn't end up joining, but I

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think we were interviewing some, you

know, the CPO of eBay, I think it was

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in the office with us for the day.

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And I just was like, Oh my God, like

everybody, everybody I'm talking to is

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like So intellectually fearsome, like

every conversation was like someone

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running at me with a chainsaw and I didn't

understand any of it and I did, I found

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it tremendously exciting and I guess,

yeah, what emerged was, I mean, this is

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a little glib, but yeah, but perhaps I've

been living a lie, and that actually I

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was a massive credit geek, and You know,

not the musician that I thought I was.

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Jeff Melnyk: Right.

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So an identity crisis then.

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Maybe I am a fintech person, but then

how, how did you then decide, well, I'll

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start my own fintech company because

from, from Wonga, you went to Habito.

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Dan Hagerty: Yeah.

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So that was seven years on.

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So, you know, kind of went up the

curve with Wonga, which was, you

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know, probably again, a steeper

learning curve as you could.

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Conceive of really for, for me as an

individual and for us as a, as a company.

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And yeah, I, I loved it.

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I absolutely loved it, but was also

really certain that I don't know, like

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I wanted to do it again, but I wanted

to do it on my terms and there were two

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real core components to that one was, you

know, one was a, it was a money lender.

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And at the end of the day, like

money lending is a, how would you

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put it, a adversarial business.

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And I wasn't like, I wanted to be

somewhere where it was kind of.

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It was, I was unequivocally on

the side of the consumer and

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I couldn't say that at Wonga.

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And and Habitone and the

mortgage space allowed for that.

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And two, like the culture of

Wonga, although in many ways

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extraordinary, it was also in many

ways terrifying and hugely problematic.

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And I guess I wanted a chance to,

yeah, build a company that I wanted

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to work at and where I believed that

we operated in kind of clear eyed and

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thoughtful and fair and passionate way.

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So yeah, like founding was.

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I didn't really have to think

much about it, like it was clearly

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the next thing I needed to do.

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Jeff Melnyk: And was setting up Habito,

because I've heard the stories of in your

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kitchen, a few people are on the table.

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These are the happiest days.

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This is a typical kind of

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Dan Hagerty: They were the

happiest days with the other guys.

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I was miserable.

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Jeff Melnyk: Oh, okay.

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Oh, this is interesting.

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Dan Hagerty: What am I doing in my house?

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Jeff Melnyk: So they're in your house,

you're, you're building the business.

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They, it's, it is like a scene from

Silicon Valley, the, the, the sitcom.

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That's the ha that was the happiest

days for that original crew,

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but for you, that was stressful?

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Dan Hagerty: I I think I've

said this to you before, like, I

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found the first year very taxing.

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Like, I felt like I was a crazy person.

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Like, it just it seemed so absurd that

I was, like, wandering around, telling

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everyone that I was, like, the CEO of

this made up company that was gonna

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be worth a billion, and duh duh duh.

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And I had these poor people

coming to my house every day.

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Again, like, labouring under the

same expectation that we were.

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This wasn't just a phantom or

a figment of my imagination.

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So no, I didn't, I, I literally

felt like I was mentally ill

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for the whole first year.

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And it was really funny as soon as

we launched and as soon as there were

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real customers and I guess when we

raised our first sort of institutional

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funding, like it started to feel real

and I found that I really enjoyed that.

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So if anything, I would actually say

it was sort of the second and third and

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fourth year that were my favorite years.

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Jeff Melnyk: And what, because culture

was important to you at Habitow,

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that's how we met I got introduced

to you through someone that we'd

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worked with at Moo, who is joining

as your people and culture, Ellie.

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Wonderful.

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And I, Ellie's idea was, well,

we need to get some values for

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Habito that are really gonna work.

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And I think you and I have talked

about this before you were pro

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culture, but skeptical of values.

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Dan Hagerty: I think, listen,

I, my experience of it at

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Wonga had been poor, you know?

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And so we'd done the

classic values on the wall.

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I think, I think our first value

was customer first, always.

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We were 4000% a PR.

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Like there's some tension there.

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Yes.

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And it, and, and I guess I, what I

saw in that was that they could, I

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don't think values are really neutral,

like I think they can be a positive,

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but like, I think they, you're often

giving sort of the world and, and the

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people that work in the company kind

of a stick to beat you with for being

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disingenuous about who you really are.

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And so I was like, for me, I didn't

wanna do it for the sake of it.

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Like I thought it was a, it was

a high variance kind of outcome.

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And two.

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And this has probably been the biggest

transition for me is, I don't, I really

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detest being told how to think and to

me, that's what I equated values with.

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I was like, I don't want to

tell people how to think.

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I think it's reasonable for me to

ask them to behave in a certain

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set of ways and to, you know, to

be on a common mission with me.

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But this, this sort of idea of, yeah,

telling them the way that they should

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interpret the world felt wrong to me.

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And it took me quite a long

time to figure out that it was.

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It wasn't sort of the dark

pattern that I saw it as, and

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actually it was more, it was more

empowerment and less diminishment.

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Right, because Habito had like a very

strong culture when I, when I met you all.

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And I think when I say strong

culture, I mean like there

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was something important there.

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It was still had dysfunction.

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It wasn't perfect, but there was

something, there was a, there was

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something binding you all together.

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And that was very early.

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I think, yeah, had you done series.

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Yeah, I think we just raised our B because

we I remember saying that our first,

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our VP people Ellie was a, our first

luxury hire and she brought you with her.

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Jeff Melnyk: Yeah, exactly.

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Bring in the expensive consultants.

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No, I think that like, I think one thing

that we talked about even then was like,

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how are we bottling up the things that

make you, you rather than trying to.

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Be the carrot or the stick of of

behavior and performance, and I

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think that was important with Habit.

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Oh, I think I guess maybe tell me a

little bit what happened as Habit.

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Oh, is was growing and

you went through a lot.

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You went through funding rounds.

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You went through the pandemic.

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You had quite a bit of outside.

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Things testing the culture.

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Dan Hagerty: Yeah.

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No, it was it was quite the quite the

journey I guess there's a couple of

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things i'd say one is I think I always

had this A bit of a struggle with the,

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this notion of the, the sort of the

founder as, you know, the, as I always

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used, someone described it once as like

being a founder was like having one

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of those magnifying, is it concave?

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No, convex mirrors, you know, that you

like for pimples, it was like that.

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And you see every bad habit of

yours exploded out across the

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whole company and also maybe some

of your, your strengths as well.

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And again, I, I think, to the

point of mental illness, I think

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I struggled with that as well.

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Like that sounded like such a level of

self involvement and egotism megalomania.

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I was a bit like, I don't really

want this to all be, yeah.

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Like I, particularly again, as a

solo founder where I didn't really

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have that kind of balancing energy.

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I didn't, I didn't love that.

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And so me sort of writing my values down

and then telling everybody that they were

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their values felt a little uncomfortable.

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But the, but the reality is,

is that, you know, and again,

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this, this isn't my saying, but.

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In those early days, like every

incremental hire completely changed

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the culture of the business.

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And there were some like really

remarkable people in the early days

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and all the way through Habitow.

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But, you know, I'm thinking about our

founding VP engineering, like Gakawil

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Jones, like a singular character,

like a really exceptional human

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in, in, in the most wonderful ways.

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And so I think, I think the truth is that

at the core of Habitow was like a real.

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A real intensity, but also like a

fierce admiration for each other.

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Like, I think there was a real

deep, like fondness and respect for

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each other's capability and sort of

commitment to what we were trying to do.

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But then it, it gets harder, right?

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Like you, you get bigger and like

things get diluted and confused.

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And, and I certainly, you know, like

had a patchy hiring record at points and

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brought in some people that like really.

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So not the whole thing on balance, but

I think we found, you know, maybe around

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that 30, 40 person mark, like we found

that kind of equilibrium and that, that

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core leadership team was together for

years, like five, six years, like through,

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as you say, like real ups and downs.

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So, so yeah, if I was sort of to tell

the story simply, I think we had a,

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I think an incredible four year run

where we just kind of couldn't stop

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growing, like everything we ship worked.

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The venture capitalists were all,

you know, very excited about us.

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And we were, yeah, we, we raised

a lot of money and, and, you know,

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probably got to about one and a

half, 2 percent market share, the UK

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mortgage market very, very quickly.

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We then took on some very ambitious

projects, and I won't bore you with

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all the detail, but like the scope

increased even, you know, to the point of

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probably like doubling the scale of the

company and you know, doubling the burn.

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Jeff Melnyk: Was that because of

pressure to take on those extra projects?

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Dan Hagerty: No.

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I think possibly one of my

greatest kind of reflections.

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It's not at all.

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It was like entirely from me like an okay

And we could you know, we could go deeper

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on this But I I think the one of my great

foibles was I had slightly grown bored of

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the initial problem quite quickly And was

like onto the next one and that's always

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and that happened to time and again I

think it was one of my great learnings was

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that like you have to You can't constantly

pursue, not like intellectual novelty,

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like there is just like things take time

to percolate, to mature, and you've got

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to commit to like the refinement of these

things rather than moving on to the next.

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But we didn't do that

because that was me then.

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We grew very quickly to, you know, a

couple hundred people and and then COVID

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hit and it was catastrophic for us.

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Like we, I mean, literally

zeroed out our revenue.

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We were in the buying and

selling houses game and you

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couldn't go into people's houses.

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And so, yeah, we had to do all the stuff,

you know, the, the furloughing, all

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the senior leadership taking voluntary

pay cuts just to weather the storm.

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And it was brutal, like

really, really brutal.

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And I think, you know, certainly for me

as a, I guess, as a leader I learned more.

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Yeah, more in that sort of 18 months,

actually, not even just as a leader, it's

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like as a person about like how to, how

I related to people, what my role was in

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the world, what I could and couldn't do

than in the rest of my career combined.

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Jeff Melnyk: That time was also

a pivot in tech in general.

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There's been.

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Layoff after layoff in, in the Bay

area of, of various tech companies.

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It feels like there's been

a consolidation period.

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VCs want to see profitability

now more so than just growth.

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Was that, were you caught up in

the maelstrom of that as well?

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Dan Hagerty: For us, it

was, it was survival.

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It was that or die.

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Like we just, yeah, well there's no

revenue, like there's, and there's

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only so much cash in the bank.

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We didn't have a choice.

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I do think though, and I know, I guess

it's come much to the fore given the sort

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of resurgent narrative around AI over

the last couple of years, but the, I mean

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the great romance story of technology

has always been the end of people.

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Like it's always been because

otherwise like why, why should a tech

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company be an insurgent disrupter?

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Like why should they get to

displace the old, the old?

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Well, it's through technology.

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And what technology kind of, I

think quite literally means is.

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Automation and the removal of, you know,

like large swathes of the workforce.

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So no, I think, you know, that was,

that was a fundament of our business

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and many tech businesses and certainly

seems to, and it's now, now a fundament

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of the government in the U S so that,

that story's still a long way to run.

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Jeff Melnyk: But that's interesting

because culture is about people and

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how people work and yet one of the

paradox then is you're running a

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tech company, which is there to make

things easier through technology.

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I've, you know, Kara Swisher has

been recently in conversation with

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Ezra Klein on the, on his New York

Times podcast, and she said things

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like, The tech bros in Silicon Valley

have never believed in culture.

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They've never believed in values.

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It's always been about just kind

of getting their ego massaged and,

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and winning against each other.

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I mean, she's very direct in her

thoughts, but is, can tech be about

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a good culture and about people?

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Dan Hagerty: I see, I don't.

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So I, we, you know, we've, again,

you've, you've probably taught me

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this, like cultures there, whether

you want it or not, like you don't get

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to choose if you, if you decide to do

nothing, you, you get what you get.

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And I think these tech companies

very much have a culture whether

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it is a generous and empathetic

and kind of how would you put it?

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Kind of contemplative culture

is a different question, but

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yeah, like, you know, I, I find

a through line from most of the.

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You know, and I should be careful

generalizing, but a lot of the

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investor community, a lot of the

tech community, there's a, there's

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a pretty rapacious desire to win.

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At the core of it beyond anything

else And if you tell me that like

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having values on the wall and adopting

a you know, benevolent culture

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will help with that They're great.

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If you tell me having a dei Program is

insurance against pr problems down the

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line and i'd be thrilled to have a dei

Program, but and i'm speaking for them

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not me, but the But the the second that

you tell me I don't need that i'm thrilled

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to get rid of it and I think that's what

we're seeing like I don't like I don't

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think This is where I think it gets

really complex, is that, like, I'm not

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sure they were entirely bullshitting.

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I think they, I'm sure they convinced

themselves they needed it when they

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thought it was what they needed

to win, and when they didn't, they

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stopped convincing themselves to that.

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Interesting.

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Yeah.

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So if the focus is on, on

winning, it's at any cost?

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Yeah.

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Well, I think, I think that's why,

that's why you see the intervention

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in government now, right?

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Like, if we've gone, what,

50 years of Silicon Valley

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without, with a sort of, fairly.

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comfortable relationship with government.

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And suddenly I think it was really

the crypto boom where for the first

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time the VCs, like the government said

they couldn't like have their desserts

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and they were like, well, screw you

then we're going to come and take the

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government because we've got all the money

and, and all the, all the megaphones.

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And I think that's what you see.

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Like, I think the will, the will to

win pointed them in a new direction

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and the government just was not in

any way ready for what was coming.

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Jeff Melnyk: So a little power

play between the industry

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and and the administration.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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The, the chapter beyond Habito was

a lovely project called Communion.

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We don't have time to

go into all the detail.

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That in itself could be a

podcast of, of wonderful tales.

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But you found yourself now

working with the founders of Kuda.

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Okay.

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Back into FinTech.

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Still remaining in

your, in your lane here.

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Tell us a little bit about Kuda and

what you're seeing there because

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a bigger company than Habito

stepping into a bigger challenge as

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Dan Hagerty: well Yeah, so as you know,

I was sort of taking a minute really and

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sort of you know It's had a wonderful

experience in communion, but realized

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it was a passion project not not a

business and was Yeah, like kind of

384

trying to figure out what I was going

to be even this next phase of my life.

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And certainly what was not at the

top of my list was charging back

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into fintech in an operational role.

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But I was introduced to the founders

of Kuda perhaps and musty last

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summer with sort of under the

auspices of some advisory work.

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And I don't know, like, but I

just got incredibly excited.

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And I think, I think there was

sort of three dimensions to it.

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I think one was.

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It's Nigeria, so it's Nigeria's

preeminent, preeminent neobank five years

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old, seven million customers, growing like

crazy and it was so foreign and strange

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to me, you know, in a positive way, like,

I felt like so out of my comfort zone.

395

I could just feel all the novelty circuits

firing and I was, I was fascinated.

396

The second thing was, I felt I just

really like the founders of the

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team, like every, like, you know,

obviously I spent time with the

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whole leadership team and the board.

399

And again, I got that kind of, it

sounds like a weird thing to say,

400

but you can kind of just smell it.

401

Like after you've been doing this for

a while, like one of those, like, like

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when a team has like been able to move

mountains in a very short period, don't

403

get me wrong, like no scale up doesn't.

404

Come with a huge amount of scar

tissue and burning platforms

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and horror and all that stuff.

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And Gouda, what incredible business

that has the usual growing pains

407

of any business that's onboarded

7 million customers in five

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years from a standing star.

409

But yeah, I got, I got super fascinated.

410

And then sorry, thirdly, it's just, you

know, I've done most of my working life

411

in the U S and the UK and a little bit in

other, in other territories, but mostly

412

like very much like developed economies

where, you know, we're There's a, there's

413

a decent version of money transfer or

mortgages or loans already in place.

414

We were just trying to make

a better digital version that

415

was a bit more transparent and

consumer centric or whatever else.

416

That's not the case in Nigeria.

417

Like there is like the fundamental

infrastructure for much of what we

418

take for granted is just missing.

419

You've still got, you know, 55 percent

of the country is unbanked and also

420

bear in mind this is a country where

5 million people turn 18 every year.

421

So it's like half, is that, I

think it's half the population.

422

Jeff Melnyk: It's full

on Gen, Gen Z o-rama.

423

Dan Hagerty: And I was just like, wow,

like this is, this is one of those things

424

where like you could, and I don't, again,

I don't want to be like too vainglorious

425

about it, but you could have like a

meaningful, positive impact on The

426

evolution of a country like, you know

if you do this, right, don't be wrong.

427

That evolution is going to happen with

or without me and with or without Kuda,

428

but like you, you get to be along for

the ride and you get to do it right.

429

And I guess one thing I've really

seen in FinTech is doing it right.

430

And doing it wrong is you can do it wrong.

431

Like money, like lending people money,

tricky business, like investing people's

432

money on their behalf, tricky business

fraught with moral hazard and complexity.

433

So yeah, like that, the trio of those sort

of three things just, I couldn't quite.

434

I couldn't stay on the sidelines.

435

Jeff Melnyk: But the Kuda proposition is

quite remarkable in itself in that it's it

436

is about accessibility and affordability

for, for people to bank, and especially

437

for this generation of Africans to have

that is going to radically transform

438

hopefully the whole continent, because

I feel like their ambition isn't just

439

for Nigeria, it goes beyond that.

440

Dan Hagerty: Yeah, that's exactly right.

441

Like, you know, there's There's a

huge corpus of academic research

442

on the incredible benefits that,

you know, having digital financial

443

rails in a market provides.

444

And Cooder has definitely been the

sort of the emblematic brand in

445

that space and the category leader.

446

So yeah, I feel super lucky to

have gotten on board when I have.

447

Jeff Melnyk: So tell me about what you,

because we've just turned 10 and you've

448

been in this game as long , in your tech.

449

journey.

450

What have you learned about growth?

451

Because in the, in the tech canon,

it seems that growth follows

452

these sort of funding rounds.

453

Like you ask someone where they're at,

they'll tell you what series they're in.

454

So you kind of get a, there's almost like

a sort of mapped out journey towards.

455

floating exit, etc, etc.

456

Not the rest of our

sectors are not like that.

457

Our other clients growth has

meant all sorts of meandering.

458

But what have you learned

about growth in tech?

459

Dan Hagerty: I mean, it's

such a strange game, right?

460

Like just the Well, the fundamental

arithmetic of tech is basically boom

461

or bust, like, you know, you're as a

VC, you're investing in a dozen, you

462

know, maybe 15, 20, 25 companies per

fund and you anticipate one winner

463

and maybe hopefully four or five

make a bit of money and a few more

464

wash their own face and the rest die.

465

So it's, yeah, like the, the sort of

fundamental calculus of it assumes

466

massive swings for improbable

outcomes, which I guess for better

467

or for worse suits me quite well.

468

And my temperament and the kind of

projects I want to work on, but it

469

is, but it's also kind of bonkers.

470

Yeah.

471

And it and it certainly

engenders, I don't know, like.

472

For, for me again, like I'm not saying

it's mentally healthy, but like the,

473

the intensity that that engenders

and the level of kind of fearsome

474

creativity that can come about I think

is, is unmatched and has provably done

475

some wonderful things in the world.

476

But it also can be problematic.

477

Like, and I think you can, it attracts

a certain kind of, you know, sometimes

478

what's the word I'm looking for?

479

Narcissistic.

480

Yeah.

481

Narcissistic is probably the right word.

482

Like a little bit, kind of.

483

You know, dead eyed,

murderous, founder types.

484

And like, you know, I've had

this conversation with a bunch

485

of other founders over the years

about, like, talent, for example.

486

There's one, one founder who,

I think a friend would be too

487

strong, I don't think he described

me as a friend, an acquaintance.

488

And he was just like, people

are only good for 18 months.

489

Like, you just gotta swap them out.

490

Like, just use up, like, use them, use

their enthusiasm, and once they like, once

491

they've fallen over, just get new ones.

492

And I was just like, you

can't possibly mean that.

493

And like, and I can't even

possibly believe that that

494

would be a successful strategy.

495

It's worked out

extraordinarily well for him.

496

And so I think, I think that's where I

have struggled a little bit because I

497

kind of have these, I guess, innate ideals

about like the right way to run a company.

498

But then I've observed some extraordinary

counterfactuals and you know, in many of

499

the most successful businesses that my

kind of compatriots have, have launched

500

where I mean Cultures, cultures are.

501

pretty horrendous but they've been

tremendously, tremendously successful.

502

Jeff Melnyk: So that sort of

moral ethical quandary of like,

503

what am I creating and growing?

504

That seems to, there's a bit of a

playbook for that in the tech world,

505

which is people could be expendable

because we want to win at all costs.

506

That hasn't been your way of operating.

507

Dan Hagerty: No, it was it read Hoffman

said like it's not a family It's

508

a team and if you start it is true

And if you start thinking of them as

509

family, like I guess dysfunctional

pretty fast much like most families

510

But no, I think I don't know for me.

511

I think it was the pandemic I mean you

were with me, but I think during the

512

pandemic I slightly kind of outgrew my

psychopathic kind of narcissist founder

513

phase where I was just like Let's do what

we need to do because I saw like, you

514

know, I had I forget what we were like 200

people at that point I just suddenly had

515

these 200 people who were to some degree

like under my care to a degree, like I

516

was responsible for paying their mortgages

and so on and I could see that to varying

517

degrees they were in extraordinary pain

like, you know, particularly those,

518

you know, who were isolated or alone

or had health staff or and I remember

519

being like, oh, like, I don't know.

520

It was, it was like a switch.

521

I was like, it, it is more important

that I fulfill my obligations to

522

these people than it is I fulfill my

obligations to my shareholders or to, or

523

even to my own ambition and narcissism.

524

And don't get me wrong.

525

I'm not like, I wasn't saintly about it.

526

We furloughed people.

527

We had to make some people redundant,

but I kind of was like, Christ, like

528

they're on their own in their homes.

529

It's me on zoom more than anyone.

530

And like, and I need, like,

it's not good enough for me

531

to just be like, work harder.

532

We'll get new ones.

533

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah, I think the human side

of leadership really came out during the

534

pandemic for people to understand that

you are dealing with humans rather than

535

just people that deliver on your OKRs.

536

But some people may have learned

that lesson and others may not have.

537

I definitely observed

you working with that.

538

Just before the pandemic, we

released our thinking around the

539

A qualities of human leadership.

540

So, I felt like we were slightly

ahead of the curve on that, but one

541

of the things that we wanted to do

with with those qualities were to

542

understand, like, what is needed to

lead businesses in the 21st century.

543

And I think there's those

qualities are universal.

544

We all have them.

545

We have some that are maybe more

of our strengths, some that are

546

maybe more of our stretches.

547

I remember when we were developing

those qualities, I tested them out

548

with you and the leadership team.

549

I distinctly remember sort of using

them as a card game with you guys

550

in a wonderful meeting room that

had a very cool Twin Peaks vibe.

551

And since David Lynch has recently

left us, I've been re watching Twin

552

Peaks and not only enjoying that

experience, but Thinking back to the

553

Habito office, which had quite a Twin

Peaks y vibe in one of the rooms, the

554

Red Lodge was actually where we did

most of our coaching, which could be an

555

interesting thing to delve deeper into.

556

But I remember using those with, with

your team and, and, and encouraging

557

your leadership team to, to sort of

lean into these qualities more as,

558

as you were developing the culture.

559

So I thought since it's our 10th birthday,

let's bring those, those qualities back.

560

And I'm curious which of the eight

You see as your strength the one

561

that you've leaned on the most

562

Dan Hagerty: So it's funny.

563

So i'm just staring at them just before

we did this and I think the obvious one

564

for me would actually probably be courage,

but Just because i've done a lot of dumb

565

brave stuff in business over the years

But the truth is i'm not going to choose

566

that one because I has not required much

courage of me Like it's i've not had many

567

of those like moments like at the edge

of the cliff thing Like or should I not?

568

Like The decision has already been made,

like in the sort of the act of creation,

569

like I'm committed and I'm all in.

570

So I feel like if you don't have

to work at it, it doesn't count.

571

Okay, it's there, but yeah,

it's innate, it doesn't count.

572

But so no, I think I

would pick creativity.

573

I think that is probably.

574

The, the area where I'm just happiest

and like, and, and, and again, like

575

any strength that can be overplayed

and sometimes that can lead me to want

576

to move on too quickly or to be too

cute, if you like, or, or sort of to

577

think, be too too eager to produce

something novel when actually like

578

what we need is something great.

579

But yeah, I think that has carried

me a long way in my career.

580

Jeff Melnyk: It's interesting taking those

two together, courage and creativity,

581

and thinking how those have driven

you in your businesses, but also you

582

haven't left music behind you, you are.

583

I don't know if I can be the one

to announce it to the world, but

584

you have recorded a new album.

585

Heard it here first on

Reimagined Work From Within.

586

Not on Pitchfork, it was

broke here, the news broke

587

here.

588

Dan Hagerty: I don't know if you know,

Jeff, but it's on Within Records.

589

Jeff Melnyk: Yes, of course,

we're bringing it here.

590

Happy to sign you.

591

You haven't left music behind, and in our

coaching, I always wanted to encourage

592

your creativity to come out more.

593

I remember telling you to go and play

Chopin for a few hours rather than staying

594

in your own repetitive thought patterns.

595

But it takes courage to go back

and, and, well, it takes courage

596

to write and record an album,

but to go back and do that again.

597

You haven't left these

things that are part of you.

598

What role has creativity played

in fueling your, your passion

599

and your drive over the years?

600

Dan Hagerty: Yeah, I

601

think So, I mean, it's a slightly

another COVID thing, which is like,

602

COVID definitely knocked something loose

in me where I suddenly was like, I had

603

some music that I needed to make, I

had some things I needed to say, some

604

feelings I had to get off my chest.

605

They weren't, and to be honest,

they weren't about being stuck

606

in my house for two years.

607

They were much broader and

more to do with my past.

608

But no, I think, and again, I'm not sure

it's a good thing, but it, like, there

609

is a, a fundamental monomania in me

where whether it's like building a cabin

610

which I've done or recording a record

or doing the design system for the app

611

or figuring out like an okr pack like

setting process like when kind of narrow

612

down and go deep like I find incredible

peace in that and it is you know in many

613

ways like Yeah, it's the drug I keep

wanting to take, if you like, it's like

614

that, that feeling of like, ah, like

I'm making something new in the world.

615

So yeah, and, and, and to me, to sort

of loop back a little bit to what

616

we said earlier, I think, I think

that was the big switch for me in

617

our relationship was figuring out

that like, I could be creative about

618

culture and creative about values.

619

And it wasn't about giving, setting

rules for people about how they

620

should think or constraining their

creativity was quite the opposite.

621

Like I was a chance for me to

be creative in a way that might.

622

Yeah.

623

And it's about seeing things

slightly differently, right?

624

And I think that's the, the creativity

isn't just about recording an album.

625

It's about the, being able to approach

the problem in quite a different way.

626

Okay.

627

Tell me about what you

would see then as your

628

stretch.

629

So again, yeah, my, I had this,

the obvious one I was like,

630

which I guess I feel like every

founder would say is patience.

631

So you're like, I'm just so effective

and glorious that just, I just find

632

the whole world incredibly frustrating.

633

I'm not picking that.

634

Although there is some, there's definitely

some issues with my, with my patients.

635

No, I think mine might

be love, interestingly.

636

And I think, which is, you know, slightly

counter to my whole, like, I'm a great guy

637

who looked after people in the pandemic

kind of narrative that I'm sitting here.

638

But I, I feel like sometimes

I, Lose the customer.

639

I think sometimes like, I'm so

excited to be in the, you know, in

640

the throes of the act of creation or,

or sort of intellectually stimulated

641

by the puzzle solving element.

642

And even though I care deeply about user

research and I think a lot about how

643

we're going to tell the story and how the

marketing is going to work, I sometimes

644

feel like I, I do like all of the

abstraction and complexity that's evolved

645

in the sort of liberal arts project

of building a company or a product.

646

Like I sometimes lose that

connection with the person literally

647

on the other end of the phone.

648

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

649

So the quality we have for love

says caring deeply for those

650

we serve and for ourselves.

651

So I think in the, for those we

serve, there's been that idea of,

652

of leader serving the team, the

employees, but also the customer.

653

What about caring for yourself?

654

Dan Hagerty: You probably I've got a

better view on that than I do chess.

655

No, I think I have, I think my self

care, as is the en vogue description,

656

descriptor, I should say, I think

it's historically been pretty bad.

657

I've sort of lived, lived pretty all

in on everything I've been building.

658

I think I've got better.

659

I think two things, I think

kids helped a little bit.

660

Like they just trip you up.

661

You know, and they're glorious

as they are, they, you just

662

can't be working all the time.

663

Not if you're going to be even an

approximation of a decent parent.

664

Jeff Melnyk: And in the time

I've known you, you've had three.

665

Dan Hagerty: Three babies.

666

Three, wherever they are, probably

about to burst in at any moment.

667

But I also think, I don't know, I think

I just used to take it all so personally.

668

That was the key.

669

Like I just, it was all.

670

Like if it didn't work out, like I was

a failure and you know, like it just,

671

it was all like right at the very, like

bare metal of my kind of emotional life.

672

And I think like, and now I've

experienced like real profound failure

673

in my professional life and real horror

points, a real horror and I didn't die.

674

And maybe, maybe some people do

think less of me as a, as a business

675

person or an entrepreneur, but.

676

I'm not sure that they really

do, like, I think, yeah, all

677

the ones that I care about do.

678

So no, I think, I think that, that helped

me to be like, well, I've got to take a

679

minute, take a minute, build a cabin, make

an album, do whatever, you know, go for a

680

hike, whatever it might be, but it wasn't,

yeah, I guess the old frequency of which

681

I was operating like was not sustainable.

682

Jeff Melnyk: Is the, is the act of

creativity part of the self care for you?

683

The, the taking a minute, taking

care of yourself versus the

684

building of, of the business?

685

Dan Hagerty: I think there's something

about creativity with no utility.

686

And I think that's what it's like,

you know, so if I'm like doing

687

scripts that, you know, building a

design system or whatever it might

688

be that has a different tenor to it.

689

To the, like, this.

690

I'm writing a song that

probably no one will ever hear.

691

Do you know what I mean?

692

No, the, no, the, the act of

creativity for its own sake

693

has a, a special quality to it.

694

And I, I think I've found that

to be an act of self care.

695

Jeff Melnyk: Because there is something

in the, in the script of the, of the tech

696

founder, which is it's hard, I've got

to, you know, I've got to work it, and

697

I've got to put in the, in the graft in

order to prove that I'm, I am who I am.

698

And I've always challenged that.

699

I think that, yes, you

do have to work hard.

700

The sort of sleeping on the sofa of

the garage of the office or whatnot is.

701

And we even saw that with Elon

when he went back to Twitter

702

that he was gonna sleep on the

sofa because he cared so much and

703

Dan Hagerty: it's also

like, you know, aggressively

704

valorized by the, the investors.

705

Because in reality the investors are on a

pretty, you know, globally speaking on a

706

short term horizon, you know, short term

investment horizon of seven to 10 years.

707

And so, yeah.

708

Like, burnout, hyper growth, and

exit, like, they don't, like, there's

709

no, I mean, and I'm not, I'm not

besmirching them, but like, they're

710

just, there is no incentive for them

to build generational businesses or

711

businesses that live for 20 or 30 years.

712

They won't be there to see it.

713

You know, they'll be, their funds

are on a 10 year cycle at most.

714

They're gonna return

capital to their investors.

715

And so yeah, like why would you try

and build something sustainable?

716

And I think that's what

the core of this is.

717

It's like, I think you can, I

think there's a lot of shortcuts in

718

company building and culture to get

something done fast and even done

719

to a reasonable level of quality.

720

But I think you sacrifice the

sustainability of that vision.

721

Jeff Melnyk: With that in mind

though, what is your looking

722

ahead the next 10 years?

723

What's, what do you see in your horizon?

724

God, I mean,

725

Dan Hagerty: if I tried to

do this 10 years ago, I would

726

have predicted woefully badly.

727

I, no, I, I'm thrilled to

know, I'm how should I put it?

728

It's nice to think that I don't know.

729

Like I'm kind of proud of it.

730

You don't need to know

what the next 10 years is.

731

Yeah, I mean if you'd asked me a

year ago if I'd be like working for

732

a neobank in Nigeria while making a

record, like, you just, no, like I

733

would never have seen that, I never

would have picked this, even 12 months

734

ago, as a, as a potential future.

735

Jeff Melnyk: But, but you're

okay, you're feeling Good

736

about where you are right now.

737

Dan Hagerty: I'm loving it.

738

I'm really loving it.

739

And it's really like, I never, I

never thought I'd enter a business

740

at this scale, I mean, I assumed I

would only ever found just, you know,

741

I'd never even co founded before.

742

Like no one wants to co found with me.

743

And I really like it.

744

I mean, you've been, you've

been working with us.

745

You've seen it.

746

Like there is something, it's

kind of nice, like tackling

747

these problems with others.

748

And it's also, I enjoy this

scale, like this, like when you

749

move a, like you move a lever and

like, the implications are real.

750

Whereas in the early days, you know,

you spend six weeks working on, you

751

know, what shape this button should be.

752

And 23 people using that, that week,

don't know, I just feel like, I

753

like the millions of people scale.

754

I find it, I find it super exciting

and like, it all feels, even the

755

little things, even the little

things feel kind of momentous.

756

Jeff Melnyk: And so if you could

go back ten years and give yourself

757

one piece of advice, what would

you, what would you give yourself?

758

Dan Hagerty: Oh

759

Jeff Melnyk: man,

760

Dan Hagerty: I guess the question

is like, you try and think of a

761

piece of advice that you believe

that that person could take.

762

But I think honestly, yeah, I think

it would have been like, don't

763

take yourself so seriously, dude.

764

Like, I think that was the core of it.

765

I think there was a, I had a

very big story about myself that

766

I, I, Needed to tell the world

and wanted the world to believe.

767

And I think the more I let

go of it, the happier I was

768

.

Jeff Melnyk: Oh, so that's a good learning.

769

At this stage, when you've let go of that

story, you found a different kind of,

770

Dan Hagerty: of joy.

771

Jeff Melnyk: I, yeah.

772

I mean,

773

Dan Hagerty: you, I mean, you work

with a much more diverse group of

774

people than I do, and, you know,

you know, a lot more founders

775

than I do intimately, so to speak.

776

The

777

, the I, there's something a

bit weird in founders like.

778

There's often, I think there is often

like some trauma somewhere, you know,

779

like bad dad, bad mom, whatever, you

know, overbearing this like to have that

780

big a point to prove to the world, like

you're carrying some baggage, everyone is.

781

And I think, and I think that baggage,

you know, and to circle back to your

782

point about like what's going on with

our, some of the tech bros running the

783

world now, like my God, that baggage

is on display, like at a scale that you

784

almost couldn't believe could occur.

785

And I think again, for better or for

worse, and potentially it will make

786

me a less successful entrepreneur

over the next 20 years of my life.

787

Like I let go.

788

I let go of some of that stuff.

789

And You know, like maybe I'm less

murderous, maybe I won't, you know.

790

Maybe that does mean you don't build

the hypergrowth thing in three years

791

that implodes after four, but like, I

think I have a much better chance of

792

building things that are worthwhile,

things I care about, and things that

793

generate long term value in the world.

794

Jeff Melnyk: I think

you've redefined that.

795

success narrative for yourself.

796

And even to be able to say that you're,

that what you're doing now at KUDA is

797

meaningful, purposeful, doing something

that feels important to you and have

798

recorded an album ready to release it.

799

And I'm sure that will not be

your last creative endeavor there.

800

So to be able to find that.

801

And, and do both of those things is

not what most humans would do, so.

802

Dan Hagerty: Yes, I guess not, yeah.

803

I guess, yeah, you gotta, you gotta

figure out what, what nourishes you.

804

And again, I, I get a bit cringy around

all the self love, self care stuff,

805

but, it's kind of, there's a, there's

definitely a grain of truth in it!

806

There's only, there's only so much self

harm that one person can engage in.

807

I

808

Jeff Melnyk: could drop in a

RuPaul quote now, but I won't.

809

Dan, this has been delightful.

810

I know that with three children in your

home, who've been special guests through

811

this podcast, that you must have another

act of duty and care to take care of.

812

Thank you so much for

being part of our story.

813

And thank you for

sharing your story today.

814

Dan Hagerty: It's been a pleasure.

815

Thank you for all the wonderful things

you've done for me, Jeff see you soon!

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Thank you!

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It's been my pleasure too.

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Alright.

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Living my truth all over the show.

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Jeff Melnyk: Thanks for

listening, everyone.

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You can find out more about Kuda at Kuda.

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com.

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This special edition of the podcast will

continue with a featured leader from

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our community sharing their story in

a new episode coming every other week.

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Reimagining work from within is available

wherever you listen to podcasts.