Imagine landing in a new country, camera in hand—and realizing you missed the shot of a lifetime because you didn’t plan ahead.

On this episode, travel photographer Glen Varnhagen reveals the secrets to a bulletproof location research strategy that ensures you never waste time, money, or creative energy ever again. Too many photographers gamble on luck and leave with average shots; Glenn’s proven process replaces guesswork with certainty, drawing from adventures in over 120 countries.

Episode Highlights 🎤💡:

(08:47) - Research Turns a Short Trip into More Opportunities

(10:39) - Getting the Taj Mahal to Himself

(13:58) - Four Questions to Research Any Photography Location

Connect with Pat Miller ⬇

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Connect with Glen Varnhagen ⬇

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I'm Pat Miller, and this is the Professional Photographer Podcast. You want to go out and take a great portrait session, and to do that, you need to do a little bit of planning. Well, today's guest, Glen Varnhagen, would tell you to do a whole lot more planning, and he has plenty of reasons because he's done it in over 120 countries. Glen knows exactly what it takes to get ready for your next photo shoot. He teaches it picture perfect planning? How do you get the best every time you leave to go take your pictures? If you want to learn this process, you want to learn from Glen, oh, he's got the spreadsheet open and ready to go. We'll talk to him next. Glen, welcome to the Professional Photographer Podcast. How are you today?

I'm doing great. And it's nice to be here.

It's great to have you here. Now, you were just telling me before we hit record that you were on an exotic vacation. Will you share with everyone where you were? Because I'm fascinated by that trip.

Uh, yeah, so I just recently returned back from Mongolia. Uh, both, uh, my wife and I are big-time travelers, and this was a gaping hole that we had not had an opportunity to visit in all the countries we've been to. So when we had an opportunity to get there, the weather was right, the price was almost right, uh, and we found a really great tour out there, so I had a really wonderful time.

That's amazing. You must have been everywhere if you had a Mongolia hole in your travel schedule. I imagine you've traveled all corners of the world.

I've been everywhere, or not everywhere, but I— that's the goal, is to be everywhere. Hitting 120 countries as of today. Wow. And I know there's a number of them out there that I still have yet to visit. And it, you know, every place is beautiful in their own right. So it's people like me and you that need to get out there and see them and tell people how gorgeous they are.

Wow, I love it. And travel has a big deal to do with what you do. So if someone hasn't met you yet, tell them who you are and what you do.

Yeah, so I'm a photographer. I travel a lot ,and I do a lot of travel-type photography. I focus a lot of my attention on what would be landscape or nature or even wildlife. And so I spend my time looking for the best places around the world to go see those things. I might go to one country for one particular reason and a different country for another. Or even my local town, there's a farm that I have to visit that has some really unique kind of animals that I'd love to go take a look at and photograph those. So it's not just foreign stuff, it's local stuff as well.

And it's cool today we get to talk about something I don't think we've ever talked about on the podcast. Over 100 episodes in, I don't think we've done an episode on location research and planning. So why is that so important? Why do you want to talk about that today?

So with photographers, there's a couple things that are always on our mind, right? And those couple things are always related to gear and, uh, quality of gear and things of that nature. And as much as I appreciate that, and I actually do like those things as a tech kind of guy, is there's something in my mind that's equally important, and that is don't waste your money Going to places that you don't know what you want to see. So I'm limited in all the funds I have, limited with the time that I have, just like everybody else. And so if I'm going to go somewhere, I better know what I'm looking for. Instead of assuming I'll go back, I always assume I'll only be there once. And so let's plan. Let's make sure that we know what we're doing and not waste our time or our money. I don't want to assume I'm going to go back to Mongolia. I would love to go back, but I don't know if I'll have that chance. So see what I can when I can see it.

And you brought this whole concept together, picture-perfect planning. And this is an entire process that you walk through?

Yeah. So what I did— so in my past, there's been many a times where I've been given an opportunity. And I'll give you a real example. My wife had a work trip, and she's like, hey, I've already got the hotel. I'm already flying there. We already have a company car. You want to join me? And I'm like, oh wait, I didn't get to pick the location. I didn't get to pick the time. I didn't get to pick anything. But why not go? All it's going to cost me is a flight. So I said, great, I'll go. And I realized after the second time of doing this, I better start having a plan so I know when I go to these places, I know that I'm going to see everything I want to see there. The last thing I want to do is go to those places and find out, oh my gosh, now I'm just wasting my time and my money, and I'm not doing anything but sitting in a hotel room, or just found out that it's monsoon season and I can't do anything. So this was just a time suck for me. So That's why it came about, is that there's been too many opportunities that I've had a chance to go somewhere and I wanted to maximize my time there. So yeah, so I've created a plan that works really well for me. I do the same thing if I'm going to go and visit, you know, my friend's wedding. I might pare down the plan quite a bit, but I'll identify all the key points. Or if I'm going to go off to a foreign land that I've never been to before and I don't speak the language and I don't know what to do there. So it doesn't matter where I'm going. Everywhere to me is any— is somewhere.

I'm curious, is this a photographer thing or a personality trait? Are you this thorough in everything you do, or is this just a photography thing?

I'd say I'm pretty thorough in most of my stuff. I like to follow certain processes, but it's more photography-based. For businesses, I know that there's always a finance department that's always checking my numbers. And So when I start doing it for myself, I realized, well, I am my own finance department and this is coming out of my bank account. And I can give you a number of examples. And one really silly example is when you decide to go with yourself and your, your family of 4 and you want to go to Disney World, you have limited time there. You've got an extreme expense. Now, will you be able to go back there when your kid's 6? You know, again, no, probably not because they're going to age out of 6 and they're going to move to 7. So you need to get there. You need to experience everything that they want to see and have a great experience there. Or you can wing it and have a different type of an experience. For me, I'm the person that's going to say, hey, I'm going to plan it. I'm going to make sure I have my tickets before I get to the gate. I'm going to make sure that I get the hotel that's locally there, spend a couple extra bucks to be on property so I can get in a little bit early. I'm going to make sure that I know that the characters, if they want to see characters, are in the left wing versus the right wing. So I can go in that direction a little bit easier than just kind of randomly pick it out and say, oh, sorry, family, we didn't see that whole section because I didn't realize it was open.

Yep.

Yep.

Sorry you missed Mickey, kids.

Exactly. Yeah. And, you know, we've all seen it. We've all seen it where you walk up to the gate and you're walking through and there's somebody there buying their ticket to get in. You're like, well, you could have done it online and saved, you know, 10% or Maybe if you would have stayed on property, you could have gotten it for a different cost. So that's, that's all I'm saying is when I go on these trips, I think about going to Disney and that's, I might not be able to get back there for another 10 years. Things are going to change in those 10 years. I don't know my personality in 10 years. So I better exhaust that now. And my kid's going to change from 6 to 16. And there's going to be a different interest in going to Disney at that time.

You got to bring that. Don't bring that up, man. We went to Disney so many times. My kids are now 20 and 23. Like I'm going to start I'm getting choked up here during this. We're gonna move on quickly. All right, I want to talk about how you go about doing this, but I want to get a really good juicy example. You went to this location, and because you did your homework, this amazing opportunity presented itself, or something that an average person that didn't do the planning would not have been able to experience, but you did because you did your homework.

Yeah, that's a good question. Uh, So, I'll give you a real-life example, and it's to a place I didn't really know existed. Now, it sounds really silly, but there's a lot of these places, right? And, I was offered an opportunity. Wife had a work trip and she said, hey, we're going to a place by the name of Madeira. Many of the listeners probably know what that's at. I didn't know what that was. And, just for everybody, it's an island just off of Morocco, and it's actually a Portuguese island. And I'm like, well, I don't know what it is. I don't know where it's at. I don't know the temperature it's there. I don't know what's going to be there for me to see, but sure, I'll go. It sounds like an interesting thing. Worst-case scenario is I get to spend the time, you know, have foreign food. And by doing my research, I realized the country— not the country, but the island itself is small enough that I can get around and see a number of things. And then I continue on that research. I realize there's a bunch of roads that are very squiggly lines. And to me, that means it takes a lot of extra effort to get around. So I had enough. So all of my research said, you can see these things, but you better be prepared. Some of these roads don't connect. Some of these places are very interesting and accessible if you bring the right gear. You know, is it hiking gear or was it grappling hooks? And I'm like, don't go to the grappling hook ones. I don't have ability to carry that. So this was a particular island that I found that I learned the most about, hey, you can do anything you want as long as you know that it exists and that you can get there. And it's easy and accessible for a person on vacation. You know, I wasn't there for an adventure in a sense of, you know, riding animals into the wilderness to find this one location. I was there for less than a week. I needed to get in and get out and see as much as I could. Yeah.

Wow. Okay. Let's get into the process. Can we do that?

Well, uh, before we do that, I'll give you one other good example. Sure. And that is, uh, and it's the Taj Mahal. If anybody's ever been to the Taj Mahal, you know that every single person in India seems to want to go to the Taj Mahal every day. And what I mean by that is it gets crowded. It gets so crowded. And I thought, you know, I'm just like everybody else. I'm a tourist. I'll just go in when it opens up. And I started doing the research. I started seeing, well, get there early. It'll be full. Get there early. And I kept on hearing that. So I finally decided I'm going to change the perspective on this. And I said, I'm going to call a local photographer. And I contacted a person that I recognized from their website and their Instagram that they had been to the Taj Mahal more often than anybody else I could find. And I wrote them and said, I'm a photographer. I'm coming to your world. I don't need your photographic skill technology. I mean, it'd be nice to hear it, but I— that's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a person to help me get to point A, B, and C. And he wrote back and says, I'm happy to help. What you'll need to do is do this. Make sure you're there at an hour before opening because it'll get packed. As soon as you enter, security is going to ask you these 4 questions. Just be prepared for your answers. When we're done with that, we're going to run, but we don't want to run because they water everything down, so you're going to slip and fall. So walk very briskly and go to the left versus going to the right. So all this planning - And I'm like, great, I got to the Taj Mahal. I got my half a dozen shots before a single person showed up.

Wow.

When the, when the arrows said go to the right because that's the best direction to go, I went to the left because the photographer said go that way. That's where all your shots are. Don't follow the route, go a different route. So all that planning meant I had the Taj Mahal 100% to myself for 45 minutes. And again, if you look at any photo of anybody who's in the Taj Mahal, unless it's during pandemic time, you have a million of your best friends trying to vie for one single shot. And then you're sitting there thinking, do I post-process this or do I just leave it as a tourist photo?

Mm-hmm.

So those are the reasons that I believe planning is vital and important. And I'll go— I'll say this often and often again, and that is you only have so much money and so much time, and it's your choice how you use it. For me, I'm going to use that money, uh, as, as efficiently as I can. And the time— I don't like wasting time. And the last thing I want to do is show up there and then figure it out, because that costs me money and it costs me a ton of time.

Mm-hmm.

And, and the last thing is when you get to these places, there's an emotion attached to it. Everybody's going to the right. Oh my gosh, that must be where everybody— everything's at. Well, little did you know, it's, it's all to the left. They're just going to the right because that's where the arrow shows. So get the emotion out of your, out of your head and let your intelligence take over.

So— Great ideas. Let's walk through a specific example. So let's pretend that I'm assigning you a shoot and we're going to go to Victoria, British Columbia. You're gonna go do a photo shoot at Victoria, British Columbia. So how do you identify that location and know what you need to know about Victoria, British Columbia before you ever show up there? So we love the idea of contacting the local photographer and not following the trends, but if you got this assignment, here it is, and now you got to get ready to go shoot in British Columbia, what would you do?

Yeah, that's a really good question, and I have I have 4 things that I do instantly, regardless of the location you told me. I mean, you could pick my, my, my own little town, right? It doesn't matter the actual destination. And what I do is I ask myself 4 questions. Where is this place? And once you know where it is, you also should know its neighbors, right? So is there something just outside of that specific location? The second thing is, what's the weather going to be like when you get there? Are you going during monsoon season? Are you going during drought? Are you going there that right now there's forest fires that you need to address? So you need to understand that second thing. How big is the place? Is this place the same size as San Francisco, or is this place the same size as Texas? Are you able to get yourself around and see these places? And then lastly, which is, does it have roads? Is this a place that actually you have highways or local roads? And once you answer all 4 of those questions, then you can start saying, oh, well, it's a physical size that I can manage. It's a desk. It's if I don't have anything of interest in this specific space, does it have a neighbor that I like? You know, just outside of my hometown, there's a really cool park. My town doesn't have it, but it's outside. So go to that park.

Mm-hmm.

And the roads, the squigglier the line, the more effort it's going to be for you to get to these destinations. So be prepared for that. Maybe you're— maybe you don't have the appropriate time, but maybe you do. So if you can answer those 4 questions, then you're on your way to understanding everything you need to know about it. So the moment you go to this location and you say, hey, I still need to come back for dinner with a significant other, Well, then you're going to say, okay, well, then I probably need to knock out that whole west section of town just because traffic— don't stress it, just remove that from the mix. So stop looking for that. Does that answer?

Yeah, absolutely. How long does it take to do that? Like, when do you start planning?

As soon as I know I'm going somewhere, I like to know the basics. So it helps in other ways as well. One is if it's got roads, well, then maybe I need to rent a car. If it's got— if it's monsoon season, well, then there's a good chance I might want to bring rain gear for me and my equipment. So immediately I check into that because I may not have the luxury of time to wait for those items to get to me. For example, for Mongolia, I said, I'm going to go to this location. I don't have the proper equipment. I'm going to rent some equipment. So I immediately contacted folks to rent this stuff. And fortunately, I had just enough time to get it. Now, had I waited, I wouldn't have had that opportunity, or it would have cost me extra money to get it expedited. And again, we'll keep going back to this, and we'll just lay it out there. I'm pretty cheap. So in the event that I needed to do expedited shipping, I would not have done it.

Sure.

So that's where— that's, that's why I start right away, so that I don't surprise myself at the end going, oh man, it would have been really nice to have blah at that location because that location asks for it.

Going to 120 different countries, have you run into political stuff, newsworthy events, like actual— I don't want to say danger, but things that were surprising that you couldn't foresee until you got there, or you were on guard for and ran into anyway?

Um, fortunately I've not had any political issues whatsoever.

Oh, good.

Um, the Mongolia might have been the one that had the most surprise to me. And that was, uh, they were running out of petrol gas. And so we had a driver because of the long distances we had, and he had to do some weird finagling to make sure the car always had gas. Now there wasn't, it wasn't, uh, detrimental. It just, we needed to assume that sitting in a gas line for 2 hours was something that we had to do that day. Um, but that's just something that whole country is, is managing themselves. But it, but it didn't, it didn't deter us. Um, other than that, there's been no political concerns about any country. I have felt, uh, equally safe in every single one of these countries as I have been in anywhere else in the world.

Wow.

Um, yeah, I mean, I tell my family whenever they go somewhere, they're like, you sure you're safe? And I'm like, If I can manage certain cities in the United States, I am perfectly comfortable. And all these, all the people I've ever met, nobody, I mean, everybody has the same interest, which is they have a beautiful country. They want to show you their beautiful country, and they're super excited that you're there to see their beautiful country. Now, some places you could always say too many tourists, too many of this, but in general, the people have always been inviting and appreciative. Typically, if you know a little bit about their country— I'll give you a real good example. I was parked in Estonia right next to the Russian border, and a couple of cops come up and started— I wouldn't say harassing, but questioning me why I was there. I was all alone sitting in a van just waiting there at a park-and-ride, and apparently I'd been there a little too long. They come over and they were questioning me, but Their persona was, we're going to make sure you tell us what's going on. And I said, oh, I'm a photographer. And I showed them some pictures. I go, this is so beautiful. Have you seen this? Have you seen this in your country? And immediately they smile and they start giving me a whole list of places I need to go to and see. And I go, well, I'm going to sleep in my van. They go, okay, don't worry about it. It's really safe around here. Oh, we'll check in on you later to make sure everything's good, but oh, you're good. So yeah, they want— people want to present their country and want you to see them at their height. And so as a photographer, that's all I want to do is show beauty.

I want to hear what might be the ultimate test of planning, which is your trips to Rwanda and Uganda that you lead. Can you tell us about the trips and how you plan for them?

Oh, specifically for Uganda and Rwanda. So after While I was traveling, I said, I want to do more with my photography. I don't want just beautiful images. I want to show people things that they think are impossible to do. And I ran across Uganda and Rwanda. It is the most gorgeous country, and you get to see the silverback gorillas. And I realized that this is a challenge for most people to think that this is something doable. So I created an entire plan around it. It's a 9-day trip. It's, we, we go, we fly into Rwanda, spend a couple of days there in Rwanda to see all the, the beauty that it has to offer. Uh, and then we transition to Uganda and actually see a number of different, um, wildlife excursions, 2 of them being the silverbacks. And then we get to see a bunch of the other African Big 5. So I created this plan because it kind of combined everything I like doing. I like photographing things that are unique and in the wild. I love to do the planning of, hey, this is a really simple plan and an organized thing. And I get to work with local environment people to make sure that we're promoting it in the most positive way. I mean, if you go to check out these silverbacks, they actually have people there that you want to help and support because they are helping and supporting this wildlife, making sure that people in the world know they exist. And this is the only place they exist and we need to take care of them. So we want you to come visit. We want you to spend your money here because we use that money to purchase more support structure for these, for this wildlife. So, yeah.

And what's it like? What is Rwanda like? What is Uganda like? And what do your guests say as they go on this journey?

Uh, I think it's usually just a, uh, the jaw drop because Rwanda is, it's had some challenges in the past, um, political challenges and, um, let's just say people challenges. And they're the only country I've ever heard of that turned it all around. They said, we had these challenges. Things didn't go well for us. But you know what they did go well is we're going to stop and turn around and say the past, as bad as it may have been, we're going to step up and say the future is our future and we're going to take care of it. One of the things they do is I believe it's once a month, the whole country has to get out and clean their quadrant wherever they're in. You know, clean the road, clean up next to the road. So it is an amazingly clean country and it is clean because they know they're going to do that once a month. So during the month they keep it clean so they don't have to do as much work on that one day. They can actually focus on other parts to clean. The roads are pristine. There's things there that you didn't expect. I mean, they've got tea plantations, they've got a number of wildlife that you just don't see anywhere else. Golden monkeys and And like I said, the silverbacks. And they work really well with the neighboring countries, the Congo and Uganda. Now, going from Rwanda to Uganda, Rwanda is super pristine. And like I said, the roads are just gorgeous. And once you get into Uganda, you start going back to the other— you get to see the raw environment, dirt roads and smaller settlements. You switch sides of the road, which side you're going to drive on in the vehicle. So, it's a unique transition after, you know, just going across the border, things have changed. So it's— but people are surprised mostly about the fact that this place exists and we didn't know about it. We're all going to different areas because our friend on Instagram told us to go there. And this place just floors people when they're like, I didn't know this existed here. And these type of creatures we can go see and you can be within 10 feet of them. And feel so secure. And these are creatures that are faster than you are, stronger than you are. And it's in their neighborhood that you're standing and they are just— awe that you're like, okay, I'm good. I'm safe. You're safe. We're all safe.

We talk about the business of photography on this show, but we can't talk about photographing the silverbacks and not talk about them at all. Like you were talking a little bit about them, but can you share a little more about what it's like to capture them, what it's like to, like you say, get that close, or what your guests are saying as they're photographing them as well?

Yeah, so what's really nice about this is that you have a very small group of people that can see them on a day's— in a day. So based on the restrictions that the parks have put on visitors is There are a number of families of gorillas in their park. So, let's say there's 30 families. Each family can have a set of visitors one time a day. And a set of visitors is a total of 8 people, 8 paying customers. And you're only there for 1 hour.

Hmm.

So, you make this long trek, you go to the park, And the park has, let's call them spotters or trackers, however you want to call it. They know where these gorillas are at. And they say, they're over there in location 1, 2, 3 in there. So you go with your group, you've got 8 people, and then you have security people, both a person expert in the local environment to teach you about all the landscape. And then you have security individuals to make sure that everybody is safe, you know, both you as well as the animals. And they're well-versed in making sure that these creatures are safe. That is their primary objective. I mean, next to yourself as a, as a person, but their primary objective is we want these animals safe. So you follow this group along and they show you to the location that you need to be at where the gorillas are at. And then they say you cannot go closer than this distance. to the gorilla, but that doesn't mean the gorilla can't come close to you.

Ah.

So as we are standing there, there's been more than enough occasions where you're standing there and you're looking at this gorilla, and the gorilla decides, I don't know, I think I want to be on the other side of where you're at. So they walk towards you, bump into you, and walk right through you in a sense, you know, to the other side. And you look and you look at the security people and they're not batting an eye. Nobody else is there, and you just stand there, you let the gorilla pass. Like, okay, there must have been something they were interested in eating over there. And so as long as you are respectful of their environment, they're respectful of you. And I've never had an instance, and as I asked many a times with many of the different support structure there, I'm like, any incidents that you can remember? They said no, no. We all respect each other and we're only there for a short period of time. We're just voyeurs into their world for a little bit, and then we can— then we move on and they're back to normal life.

Yeah, that's amazing. So who's Picture Perfect Planning for? Is it for a control freak that wants to control more, or someone that knows they're bad at this and needs help? Who gets the most out of this process?

Um, I would love to say everybody gets a little bit out of this. And what I mean by that is, is I take it to an extreme because I, because I'm just that kind of person. I like to know as much as possible before I get somewhere. But there's some times where you're going somewhere, it's like, well, I, I don't need to know all that. I just need a little bit. But it's a nice little process if you answer the first 4 questions and then you take a look at a few different sites and you say, is this something I need to dig deeper into? then you do. But for a number of folks, all you need to know— you're going to a destination wedding, you don't have the luxury of owning all your own time, you only have a little bit of that, so you only do a little bit of the process. But you still know, can I get to these places? How big is this place? And is there anything really to see when I get there? You know, and you can do that, like I said, anywhere here in the States as well. You've got a destination wedding that's in somewhere in Texas, Is there some— is there something there, or is the neighboring town really cool that you can spend some time at?

Yeah.

So, uh, like I said, I do it to an extreme because of some past— my, my history, uh, has asked me to do that. Um, and I'll give you an example. So this is something we had not talked about and I didn't inform you about, but, uh, so I was— I had an opportunity to photograph a number of Olympic So, but most people don't realize this, but soccer in the Olympics is played at multiple stadiums around the countryside.

Mm-hmm.

So when you say you're going to do the swimming for Olympics, you know the venue, and you know that if there's a US individual and you want to track that particular individual, you know it's going to be at that venue. Well, for the soccer, you don't know. And for an example, in China, when I'm traveling around, it could have been one of 5 different stadiums around the country.

Oh.

So you find out, obviously, you know the first one, you know the second one, the third one could be one of 2 or 3. If they make it to the fourth game, it could be 2 or 3 other ones. So I had to create a plan of possibilities and percentages, thinking if they make it to this and this team makes it to this, then they're probably going to be over here. Their roster is going to allow me to think that, or, you know, the matches they're going to play, most likely they're going to win or lose against this particular team. So that means they'll be the head of their group or the secondary of their group. And if they're secondary, it goes in this direction. If they're head, they're going this direction. So, I had to create this plan, and I have this amazing spreadsheet of saying probabilities and saying they will not go to these cities because that is just too unlikely, but there is a chance they'll go to these cities. So, for me, I've taken it to an extreme extreme, but it helped me understand and know that, hey, if I'm going to be traveling, I'll be traveling in this direction and back from there. And it gives me a comfort knowing when I'm in this type of a situation, I can say, don't worry, I already know the distances. I know what kind of flights or— that's not a flight, that's a train ride. That's not a train ride, that's a car ride. Or I can stay in town and I already have hotels' names that I could already pick on and move forward with. And again, it's saving myself time and money and emotions at that moment.

Many of us are taking airplanes to go see Imaging USA this year. You get to speak and speak on this topic at Imaging USA, so we'll learn more about this. Is there anything in addition that we haven't covered that you'll be tackling at the talk?

No, this will be the primary topic. I've got a lot more detail around this, um, but ultimately I think it's the stories that really bring it to life. And, and some of those stories are important because Because it's just things that you might not think about. It might just be like, oh well, I didn't consider doing that. Maybe I should incorporate that with my planning. Everybody has their own way of doing it, and as much as I believe mine's the best way of doing it, I know there's other opportunities, and the technology today is opening up doors like crazy to enhance or even break down my process. And so I'm always trying to figure ways to break mine so that I can improve it. And that's, that's what I want people to get out of the conversation is, is don't just walk up to the gate at Disney and buy your ticket and assume you're going to have the same experience as somebody that already made sure that they've already got a booking at that particular venue.

If someone wants to learn more from you, where do they go? What do you want them to do?

My primary website is GlenVPhotography.com. And that's the best way to contact me. It links you to all the other businesses I have, primarily the, the trip to Uganda, Rwanda. So look at me up there.

Awesome conversation. You inspired me to do more planning. Glen, thanks for coming on the show.

Thanks for having me.

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