Kyle, Seth, and JR Robles(co-founder and prodcuer of Dare To Fail Film) dive into the complexities of Christopher Nolan's least critically acclaimed film, *Tenet*, which still holds a respectable score of 69% on Rotten Tomatoes. They explore how the film's release during the pandemic affected its reception, as many moviegoers were not in the mood for a challenging narrative that demands close attention. The conversation highlights Nolan's unique approach to filmmaking, particularly his commitment to practical effects and intricate storytelling, which sets him apart in the industry. Amid their discussion, they consider whether *Tenet* deserves a spot in Nolan's top five films and reflect on the evolving perception of his works over time. With insights into the film's artistry and the challenges it faced, the episode offers a thoughtful examination of a movie that continues to spark debate and intrigue among audiences.

The podcast episode presents a thoughtful and entertaining analysis of Christopher Nolan's Tenet, a film that has sparked considerable debate among audiences and critics alike. Kyle, Seth, and JR Robles engage in a lively discussion, examining the film's unique narrative structure and the challenges it faced during its release amidst the pandemic. From the outset, they explore the question of whether Tenet deserves its reputation as Nolan's least critically acclaimed film, given that it still holds a respectable 69% on Rotten Tomatoes. The conversation delves into the intricacies of the plot, which blends high-concept science fiction with classic spy tropes, and the implications of releasing such a complex film during a time when viewers were craving straightforward entertainment.

As the hosts analyze Tenet's technical achievements, they highlight Nolan's commitment to practical effects and in-camera stunts, which distinguishes the film from many contemporary blockbusters that rely heavily on CGI. Seth passionately defends the movie, arguing that its ambitious exploration of time and entropy showcases Nolan's signature storytelling style. The discussion also touches on the audience's reception, noting how the pandemic context may have colored opinions and led to misunderstandings about the film's intentions and themes. The hosts reflect on their own viewing experiences, sharing how their perceptions have evolved over time and emphasizing the importance of revisiting films with fresh eyes.

In the latter part of the episode, the trio considers the broader implications of Tenet within Nolan's filmography and its potential legacy. They draw comparisons with other notable works, discussing how Tenet might stand the test of time as audiences continue to engage with its complex themes and narrative structure. Ultimately, the hosts encourage listeners to approach Tenet with an open mind, recognizing that great cinema often challenges viewers and invites them to think critically about the stories being told. Through their engaging dialogue, they reinforce the notion that Tenet is not merely a flawed film but rather a bold artistic endeavor that deserves deeper exploration and appreciation.

Foreign.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Movie wars podcast.

Exciting day for Seth.

We're covering a Nolan film.

Oh, I'm so excited.

Yes.

And we'll get more to that a minute.

We have a new friend here.

Our friend Junior Robles here, co founder and co producer of Dare to Fail Film.

Tell us about you and tell us about Dare to Fail Film.

Thanks.

Thanks, Kyle.

Thanks, Seth, for having me on.

And so, yeah, with Dare to Fail, we are a Nashville film, I guess, activity community kind of thing.

We started a few years ago, three years ago, and we put out a prompt every month.

It's a monthly short film showcase and we put out a prompt to filmmakers, anybody who wants to do it.

You got kind of got to be local to Nashville to really do it, though.

And we put out a prompt, a theme, and you make a one minute short film for that theme and then we screen it that month.

And in order to get it screened, you got to show up to the showcase.

Nice.

And.

And buy it like a tickets, like five bucks to the show.

But other than that, that's the only, like, barrier entry for it.

And so five bucks and you get to screen a film that you made and you get to meet and hang out with other filmmakers in town.

And that's.

Yeah, that's kind of the sum of it.

Wow.

Yeah, it's been great.

Three years in and we've.

We've grown a huge community in town and a lot of great films, a lot of fun projects that have gone on to.

To be in festivals and things like that too.

So.

Incredible.

Yeah.

And.

And me and my co.

My.

My partner, Steve Parnell, we start.

Yeah.

Like I said, we started it about three years ago and we're gonna go into season four of it this year.

And we.

We do our show at Third Coast Comedy Club and Pretty much very familiar.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I bombed there so many times.

Yeah, I've bombed there a couple of times myself, so.

But yeah, it's a, it's a.

It's a great time and hopefully if you're in Nashville, come out.

I was gonna say it sounds like an open mic for short films, but it sounds better than open mics because they only pay $5.

Yeah.

And somehow after a bad set, I'm out twice that in beverages.

Yeah.

So.

Wow, that's.

That, that's.

That's like one drink.

Yeah, I know.

And these days.

I know.

Well, that's awesome.

How can people find you socials and website and all that?

Yeah, yeah.

Most of our Online presence is on our Instagram.

It's dare to fail film with underscores in between each of the words.

We also have a website that is under construction.

It's daretofailfilm.com.

Sweet.

Well, I love anything that stimulates film at an independent level, so that's really cool.

Check it out.

Today we are doing Is he favorite.

Director, would you say, or top three?

Top three.

Top three.

I've been aching to hear Seth talk about Nolan.

And if you were to believe the critics today, we would be dumpster diving.

In the Nolan collection, his worst rated.

Film, which is on Rotten Tomatoes 69.

Yeah.

Which is fantastic.

Honestly, it is.

It is pretty crazy because you sent me the screenshot and I was like, it's like there are so many great directors who have, like, really bad.

But Nolan, this is his worst, is 69%.

And he has this.

What is.

He has 11 now.

Oh, no, this is.

That.

That was his, I think, 12th film.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we'll get to.

To your love for Nolan in a minute.

But you know where I want to kind of start off is that this movie, to me, kind of has to get a bogey in some ways because when it came out, it came out at a very tumultuous time.

Right in the middle of the pandemic.

I went and saw it on imax film, the 70 millimeter film.

In the middle of the pandemic, there was me and eight other people in the theater.

We were all masked up.

Yeah.

Not a single one of us had popcorn.

We all just sat there for the whole thing.

And that was it.

Like, it was raw dog and tenant, literally.

This is so good.

We hadn't, you know, we were still in the thick of things.

Yeah.

This was, I think June or July, so three, four months in.

Yeah.

And, you know, Nolan.

Not that Nolan ever said this, but there was almost this messianic perception of Nolan that he felt that he was going to come out with a big budget film, he was going to revive the theater again.

People felt like maybe he was either arrogant and that.

That maybe he was taking too big of a risk putting this movie out in the middle of the pandemic.

I admire it because obviously Covid crushed theater.

Yeah.

And we still haven't really recovered.

It was kind of going down anyway.

But, yeah, Covid really, really hit it hard.

Yeah, it did.

I remember.

And I remember me and a select group of people online were like, trying to evangelize people to go see the Northmen because we were Such Eggers fans.

And it's technically a flop, you know.

But we were just, like, also, like, sad, because that's one of.

I mean, of the.

The four now movies that he's put out, I'm seeing Nosferatu on Monday.

Of the three that I've seen, it's.

It's so good.

Yeah.

The Northman is insanely good.

That last duel in front of the volcano, as far as lava duels go, rivals.

Revenge of the Sith, in my opinion.

Yeah.

So oily, so shiny.

Incredible duel.

Yeah.

But we were like, please don't let this movie flop because of COVID And it still felt it fell a little short, but I just remember, like, just actively as a movie pod, just cheering people, like, let's do what we can.

Yeah.

I know.

It's.

Stay safe, be safe.

Yeah.

But you can get out there.

Let's not let this art die.

Yeah.

And so.

And then there was.

You know, it's funny because the screening of the Dark Knight Rises had this too.

But there was also complaints of audio issues.

Yeah.

Which.

Seeing it at The Opera Mills IMAX, which is one of, I think, 19 in the country that actually can still do IMAX film.

It was perfectly calibrated.

I had no problem understanding anything that I needed to understand.

A lot of times people like, oh, I can't hear every single word.

And the way Nolan tends to work with his film is if you can't hear it, it's probably because it's not important.

It's just words people would say in the middle of a gigantic scene like that.

So I know.

I don't know.

I know people had issues, but I have a feeling that at that point, it was theaters not calibrating their sound systems correctly.

Yeah.

Could have been to expound that people would leave the film complaining that they couldn't hear a lot of the dialog that the.

That the background noise, like airplanes or whatever is in the scene was drowning out the dialogue and they felt like they couldn't hear.

Harrison Ford's here.

He's made an appearance.

The cat's name it is.

He didn't make an appearance last time.

He didn't.

It made me sad.

Yeah.

But now he's like, probably on camera.

That's awesome.

Hey, buddy.

But, yeah, so it's interesting.

And then we.

We get into this idea that, you know, the.

The physics, the complexity and not subject matter.

That outside of the Dark Knight, and even in the Dark Knight a little bit, or the Batman series, he.

This is not subject matter.

He shies away from, in fact, he.

He's infatuated.

Yeah.

With time, with, you know, metaphysical things.

So, you know, this is him really seeing that to the nth degree.

But I want to get.

Turn it over to you.

Tell us about your Nolan love and.

Oh, yeah, and you are a.

You're a defender of this film.

100.

On top of everything you just said about the film, it.

It also, when he first was announcing what it was about, he made it very clear this is his love letter to the James Bond movie.

He wanted to make a super spy movie.

And this, I mean, you can see through so many different.

Even just down to certain shots that he used, you can tell he was really trying to give his love over to Sean Connery and Daniel Craig and like, kind of take that old school spy mentality and mix it with his normal convolution of time trying to figure all that out.

I love Nolan, especially with this movie, because he.

He does everything in camera as much as he possibly can.

A lot of people think he's anti cgi.

He's not.

As we've seen with Interstellar and Inception and.

And plenty of his other movies, he'll use as much CGI as he needs to to make the movie happen.

But he is pro in camera.

Whenever he can do something in camera, he will.

To the point that this movie only had 280 visual effects shots to compare.

Your average ROM com is probably going to have about a thousand visual effects shots.

Wow.

And Avengers Endgame.

I think out of the 3,000 ish shots that were in the movie, 2,700 of them were visual effects shots.

No wonder I hate those movies so much.

Yeah.

On top of this, there was no use of blue or green screen in this entire movie.

So every time you're seeing people fighting and running around in different time directions, all of that is happening at the same time in camera.

That's wild.

Yeah.

Like the whole fight scene between John David Washington, spoiler alert.

And himself, none of that was done through green screen.

It was all done on set with a guy based.

The stunt guy being like, all right, so this is how I would fight in reverse, but also still react and attack him while I'm going in reverse.

Yeah.

So just so much underrated stuff in this movie, even down to my favorite shot of the whole movie is right at the middle of the temporal pincer mom like moment at the end where you see this tower and it rebuilds itself in the bottom and then blows up in the top and then swaps around and does the exact opposite Thing that was all done in camera.

And literally each of those shots was just two shots that he melded together.

Like, everything that he could do practically, he did.

And I think a lot of things kind of got lost in just how big this movie was.

As far as the scale of what he did.

It's a crazy technical achievement.

Oh, my God.

Yes.

I put out a Reddit post a couple years ago where I was saying, I think Tenet, as far as a technical level, is the greatest achievement in film thus far.

Say what you will about the story, say what you will about the acting.

We'll have those discussions later as well.

But as far as the technical side of films, doing things in camera, I think it's the greatest thing we've ever seen.

That's why the sound didn't bother me, by the way.

Yeah.

Like, because.

And maybe this is the benefit of having seen it a few years after it came out and kind of hearing about it, but I heard a lot of the complaints about the sound and everything.

The sound issues people didn't understand.

Yeah.

But like, watching it just today, which is the first time I watched it, like, to me it was like, those were intentional things.

Yeah.

And so I don't know, for me, when I see stuff like that, it's like, well, rather than just trying to say, oh, I was uncomfortable because I couldn't hear, like, it was more about, okay, why did.

Why did he make this choice?

Exactly.

And like, thematically, it makes sense.

Like, you've got these two reverse timelines going on.

Yeah.

And so.

And kind of establishes the rules of that sound, of why that's happening, because, you know, the physics of everything are just different in the other timeline.

So.

So, yeah.

I mean, I really kind of love that choice.

Yeah.

And I always tell people, if you.

If you don't pay very close attention to the first 15 minutes of that movie, you're not going to get anything else that happens after that.

If you're not paying attention to when the scientist is explaining to him the.

The physics.

And we can get into that.

I've said a bunch of stuff about this in the past, but if you don't hear her explain the physics of how you have to catch or drop the bullet in order for it to actually do its thing, you're not going to understand anything that happens for the rest of the movie.

People love getting a college lecture.

15.

The first 15 minutes into a movie.

Yeah.

But I mean, if you're doing a science fiction movie, you have to understand the rules of the universe.

It's something we've discussed with other movies is that this is one of those movies that I throw everything I know about the real world out the window and I listen to their explanation of the rules.

And I only follow those rules for the entirety of the movie because those are now the rules of the universe that we're following.

We're not trying to make this movie fit into what the real world would be like.

We have to accept the rules that he's established within that first 15 minutes of the movie.

Seems like maybe that's why it got.

One of the reasons why it got a lot of flack, though, was maybe something like that.

And I feel like that happens in a lot of Nolan movies, though.

Like you have somebody.

It's like it happens with Michael Caine in Inception.

Yeah.

Where like he kind of explains, hey, here's how the world is exactly.

You know, and like when he's explaining the different layers of time, how time slows down with each dream, that in.

Yeah, he, he, he does create semi complicated worlds in what he's doing, but that's just what he's doing.

Like you, if you're gonna go watch a Nolan movie, you should kind of expect that it's going to be more complicated than your average superhero movie.

Yeah.

And he also has varying levels of reality baked in in his movies like Inception.

He was very clear that he did zero research for that movie.

Yeah.

Like he was not interested in making that one.

Whereas this one, he and I have a rando about this.

But he worked with a world renowned physicist.

Yeah, exactly.

You know, he still took a lot of liberties, but he's had varying levels of interest in what it would look like.

Well, I mean, Interstellar literally won scientific awards for their representation of a black hole because no one had ever done that before.

He took all the mathematical calculations that go into what it might look like, put it through a computer, that's what it spat out.

Five years later, they take a picture of a black hole and prove that it's exactly what it looks like.

So, yeah, that back 10 years ago, Interstellar won tons of scientific awards for that vision or visual of the black hole.

So, yeah, he goes through science when he wants to and when he doesn't.

Seth, I love how much you love Christopher Nolan.

I love it too.

I love it.

He's one of the few arturs that are genuinely keeping the art of filmmaking alive.

I actually just read a statement that was put out by Netflix.

Apparently they have been telling their filmmakers to have all of the characters explain what they're about to do for the people who have it on in the background.

Yeah.

It's a new genre, actually.

It's so dumb.

Wait, do what now?

So literally, Netflix is saying that directors and writers need to make sure that characters almost narrate everything they're doing so that people who are cleaning their house with a Netflix movie on can still pay attention without looking at the movie.

Like, they're literally making movies for people that aren't watching movies.

They're making movies for background noise.

Developing it as a genre.

Almost like it's almost being described as background movies.

Yeah.

So absurd.

Christopher Nolan wants you to put your phone away, sit down, and watch the damn movie for the whole two and a half, three hours that he's got it on screen.

Well, if you got a Christopher Nolan fan in your life, make sure you share this up.

Yeah, I know you got a friend in your life.

Please do.

If your grandma.

We always talk.

We don't ever.

Leave the grandmas out of this show.

Grandmas love Christopher Nolan.

Grandmas love the Nolan.

They love it.

Enemies, too.

If.

Enemies, like, yeah, love thy enemy.

If.

If someone hated the sound of this movie, you should just send them this podcast.

Yeah, yeah.

Subtitles are a thing.

Yeah.

In fact, in the edit, he's gonna put nothing but rumble over our voices so you can't hear what we're saying.

Even though it's gonna be audio.

I'm gonna put subtitles on it.

Yeah.

All of my dialogue is in reverse.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We just had to.

We had to.

We had to re.

Reverse it.

Yeah.

Entropy.

The questions, the questions.

Yes.

Is there an easier way for these future criminals to get back at civilization than this?

I'm just thinking, like, the Terminator is one of my favorite movies.

Like, I just feel like sending a robot back was a pretty.

A pretty, like, feasible.

Yeah, sure.

But these future criminals, like, got very creative.

They just jumped right in.

Yeah.

Just like, wow.

I mean, here's my assumption.

My assumption is this movie is technically a prequel to Interstellar because they talk about how basically the entire environment has fallen apart, and that's why they're doing all this and sending all this shit back in time so that they can destroy the world beforehand.

I feel like that's why they.

They.

Someone created this time, you know, time manipulation shit.

Somewhere between now and then and now, they're just like, well, this is all we got.

So we'll just send something back, you know, however long ago and make that happen.

But, yeah, I think.

I don't know.

It's Kind of a prequel to Oppenheimer, too.

There's a little shout out to.

To Oppie in the.

In the movie.

Yeah, a prequel to the.

The movie that happens in World War II.

But, yeah, we're going backwards in time, so that makes sense.

Yeah.

On one of the various loops, it.

Works in the tenet, sort of time rules.

Absolutely.

They always just say, that's a loop.

Oh, I've been playing this game, death loop.

Have y'all played it?

I played.

Have.

Yeah.

It reminded me so much of this movie or the.

The movie reminded me so much of.

Of the game.

Like, just with the.

The different time things that are going on in that game and also sort of the vibe of it, too.

But.

But as far as, like, being an easier.

An easier way for these.

I don't know, maybe just, like, try to do something about the climate.

That would be.

Yeah, probably.

Yeah.

We have to nuke the world.

We have just, like, change something.

Like just maybe Bill Gates doesn't buy all the farmland.

It really is like an angry ex girlfriend approach.

Yeah.

Instead of solving the problem of aggressive bullshit.

Yeah.

Instead of solving the problem, let's kill people and beat people around and spread gossip about them, you know, and post about them on social media.

Gosh, I love it.

Yeah.

Just a little more.

Yeah, a little more climate stuff would be probably a lot easier than sending, you know, multiple people.

Or they could have just sent back the cure for cancer so that Kenneth Branagh didn't have to, like, be pissed off, you know, wife and everything.

So is that.

Is that transporter thing?

Is it like one of those things at the bank where you put the tube of your check into the thing and it basically.

But through time.

Yeah, I love that.

That's.

That's pretty cool.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's crazy.

And, you know, you can.

I mean, you got to wonder the impact on your body after you do it so many times.

Right.

Because maybe that's what gave him cancer.

Yeah, could have.

Oh, wow.

It wasn't.

Wasn't him digging up nuclear sites in Ukraine.

The decades of radiation exposure.

No, it was.

That was time travel.

That was the cherry on top.

Next question.

Does Michael Caine have dirt on Nolan?

He literally just.

Same.

Same suit.

Yeah.

Same character.

I mean, different names, doing some different things.

But, like, there's like, three.

We're going on, like, what, four?

No, that was six.

Six movies with Michael Caine.

And I.

I know he.

I know Alfred's a bigger thing, but still very much Michael Caine.

It's like he.

Inception in this one.

Very Much.

That was seven.

Seven.

Because he does have a little audio cameo in Dunkirk.

Okay.

Yeah.

If I had.

If I were a film director of any weight and I had a chance to put Michael Caine into a movie.

For much seven movies, I would just.

Do it and figure out something that's kind of.

That's kind of my thought.

But he might have dirt on Nolan.

Yeah, he just, he's.

He's got like a cadence.

Or does Nolan have dirt on Michael Caine?

And he's like, you will be in all of my movies.

I think whoever put Michael Caine in Jaws for the revenge had dirt on Michael Caine.

That's.

Yeah.

A zero percent on Rotten Tomatoes.

I definitely.

They.

If anyone had dirt on Michael Kane, it was those both.

The fact that he's in that movie is the dirt on Michael Kane.

Yeah.

His agent.

Do you think he killed.

I would have killed my agent.

Yeah.

Like, I don't think about killing people.

But if I'm Michael Kane.

If you are like some iconic actor.

How do you go from the original Italian job to Jaws 4?

I know.

You know, a couple million bucks probably helps.

I have a feeling that's how much they spent on the entire.

Maybe that's the problem with Jaws 4 is they spent all their money on Michael Caine.

And then they were like, oh, we probably should have written a script first.

The shark ate the script.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I love having Michael Kane in as many movies.

I mean, he's fully retired now.

That's why he wasn't an Oppenheimer.

So I mean.

Yeah, it's.

Yeah.

I kind of miss.

Miss having him around.

And he is one of those actors that has like a like aura.

He just.

When he's on screen, you're like, that's Michael Kane.

Secondhand lions, I love second hand.

So good in that him and Robert Duvall together are just perfect.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My third girlfriend and I went on a date to see secondhand lines.

There you go.

It was, it was fine.

You got them number.

You got the number.

You have like encyclopedias with numbered girlfriends out there.

Like, this is the book of Trish.

Yeah.

Well, this is the book of Deborah.

Yeah.

One of those books is really long.

This is the book of that.

Yeah.

This is coming from a guy that had one girlfriend before I met my wife.

And that was like a four week relationship.

You.

Oh, yeah, man.

Well, I, I have commit.

My commitment problem is if I'm not getting.

I was.

If I wasn't gonna get married, I wasn't gonna do it.

I wasn't Gonna date now.

So most people, like, I don't really want to be in a long term.

I was like, I only want the longest term.

Yeah, I love it.

You stuck to your guns.

I did, I did.

I also was just not good at dating.

I'm also.

I don't have a lot to work with here.

Hey, man.

I think you're pretty hot.

Oh, thank you.

I know there's.

There's a lot of hotness going on.

Yeah, I agree.

Almost as hot as Kenneth Branagh on this movie.

Seriously, though, that was the greatest text I've ever received from you.

He text me like, two hours ago, and it's literally just like, what did he say?

Also, Kenneth Branagh looks great.

What the fuck?

This might be the hottest version of Kenneth Branagh.

Yeah.

I stand by it.

Yeah, Yeah, I agree.

He took his shirt off at the end there.

I was like, fuck.

Okay.

All right.

He's been working out.

Jacked.

Dude's vindictive in this too.

Yeah.

He starts slapping her around.

Oh, my God.

I was pissed.

I was like, damn.

This dude, he's.

He's angry.

He literally had, like, the Persona of Bane, but.

But like, in a Russian oligarch.

Yes.

I think he's my favorite thing about the movie.

Same.

Great.

Agreed.

100.

And there's a lot of great stuff about.

But I think his performance and his choices, just amazing.

Amazing casting choice for this guy.

And just he was menacing and complex, and you could still kind of see.

You could still kind of empathize with.

With him.

Like, it was.

I think he was a really beautifully built character.

Yeah.

And an amazing performance by this guy.

Agreed.

Yeah.

And.

And one thing I love what Nolan does, and this is another one of his obsessions is sickness.

Like someone a character that has a disease, Terminal disease.

And terminality messes with fate.

And he loves that.

But I love how, like, the trajectory of his characters, he's so good at without over doing too much exposition.

Like, I love that glimpse of him as a young man digging in the dirt because it's like, oh, he is who he is because of what he's experienced.

Like, his trajectory, like, it just.

It hits you.

And the way no one delivers that, it usually punches you in the stomach a little bit, like, oh, shit.

Like, he's a bad guy, but he's a survivor.

Yeah.

You know, reason he's a bad guy, because he's been fucked over by the world.

The way he's trying to fuck over the world.

Yep.

Yeah.

Heroes.

Heroes never die.

They only live long enough to Become villains.

Like, I could see that character in an Earth, earlier version becoming someone that you really root for.

Yeah.

And I think it's been settled in a lot of places, but those are the kind.

That's the kind of villain character.

That's the kind of way that you want to build a villain.

If you're going to create something like that is.

Is to create somebody that could have been a hero at some point, you know?

Definitely.

And yeah, I love his performance in this so much.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I will say one of the biggest criticisms I do remember about.

About the movie is the casting of John David Washington.

A lot of people said that his performance was just very stale, very stilted.

I think they kind of missed the point, though, of what his character is supposed to be.

He is supposed to be like the number one agent at the CIA, which basically means you're an expert at not showing your actual emotion, at creating whatever emotion you're trying to portray to whoever you're trying to over.

Right.

And like, I.

I don't know.

I think he did that perfectly, especially with his character literally being named the protagonist.

Like, he's not supposed to be someone that you want their background on.

You're literally supposed to be dropped into his story right in the middle.

I mean, literally the first moment we have is that opera being attacked by terrorists and he's just sitting there waiting to go in.

Yeah.

And it's like, I don't think this particular character is supposed to be like Cobb in Inception, where you're supposed to get his tragic background and you're supposed to understand why he's in this.

He's the top of the CIA.

You're.

You're supposed to see him as anonymous as the rest of the world would.

Yeah.

And I think.

I think if.

If this traveling through time and this entropy theme is the thing you need, like this almost entity.

Yeah.

I look at him as almost a God, like a godlike entity.

I know that's not who he is, but metaphorically speaking, he is in this world where we're.

We're subscribing to try and travel and reversing of time.

Like, he is this entity, and so he has to be almost this consistent.

Like, because that's what.

That's what entities are.

You know, they're consistent.

They're, you know, they're.

They're unchanging, you know?

Exactly.

So, yeah, I think he is.

I think he's.

It's not that much of a metaphor.

Like, he really kind of is the God of this timeline.

Thing.

And it's a part of.

A big Part of the.

The plot of the movie is him kind of figuring that out.

Exactly.

You know, and I did like the choice of him, you know, there.

I think some of the critiques are fair, personally.

I.

I do think he was a little bit sort of vanilla at times, but also, it's a really hard part.

First of all.

Yeah.

And second of all, in other places, he's just insanely good.

Like, the physicality that this guy needs.

Like, you know, And.

And also, I do like that he is kind of famous, but kind of also not super famous.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's Denzel's kid.

Denzel's.

And he sounds like Denzel, but.

But like.

But if you didn't know that, you would just see someone.

Like, who is that guy?

Honestly, I didn't know he was Denzel's kid until I watched the movie.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think I.

I'd heard a podcast with him on it, and he was about.

Like, Tenant was filming at the time, and he just said that he's going to be the lead.

So.

So.

So I kind of knew that was happening.

Yeah.

But, like, I.

I think he.

I.

I think he does a great job with it.

And I.

I think that kind of mystery about him is another layer of that casting choice where it's like that thing where it's like, I know that guy from somewhere.

He's that guy.

Yeah.

You know, I don't know.

Is he that big of a star now, would you say?

Wasn't he in that.

What was that Ku Klux Klan movie?

He was in Black.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's kind of hit, like, the top level of the indie scene, but I feel like this movie was the first time he was in something blockbuster, like.

But then he was almost, like, he was almost blocked just because of when it came out.

Like, it should have been significantly bigger than it was.

And it kind of, I feel like, may have set him back a little bit just because of when it was released.

Yeah.

Also, I love the fact that Robert Pattinson in the movie is the only one who knows anything about what's happening.

And yet on set, he's literally quoted as saying, I had no idea what the fuck was going on.

Yeah.

I knew nothing.

I had read the script, and I still was like, what are we doing?

He was the only one, though, in the movie who actually knows everything.

That's actually my first one, Rando.

Oh, is it?

Oh, sorry.

It's a perfect segue.

I think it's so funny.

Rando.

Rando.

She got to say it.

Say it hard.

Okay.

Rando.

Oh, yeah, that's good.

That was hot.

I need a sweat break.

You got a towel, Harrison?

Yeah, bring me a towel.

He's under the table.

Oh, he's chilling, dude.

He's chilling, bro.

He's usually opening the curtain over there.

Sometimes during the video, you see this fluctuating light.

It's amazing.

He's like.

It's like in a movie.

Like in the Overlook Hotel.

Like, is a character in a movie.

Like, the curtain is now a character in our movie wars movie.

Rando.

Rand.

Great, great segue.

So the secrecy in.

In Patson is.

This is the reason there was a lot of secrecy, first of all, about.

This is kind of what played into the movie, also struggling in theaters a little bit, was that people didn't know what it was about.

Like, because the.

The trailers were super, like, ambiguous.

Like, Nolan didn't want.

He wanted complete mystery.

Yeah.

So much so that, like, Michael Kane was only allowed to read his.

His lines.

Yeah.

His section of the script.

He was not allowed to read anything outside of his dialogue with other actors.

And saying Patinson and John David Washington, they got to read the full script.

Yeah.

But they had to read them in locked rooms, apart from each other, at Warner Brothers Studios.

Crazy.

So when Patson says he didn't know, it's because.

Yeah.

They were all kept away from each other.

I don't think there were table reads.

Did they talk about why?

I think.

I think if I had to guess, I don't have that part of it, but if I had to guess, it's because that is actually what's in the movie.

I think you have actors, and you could call them actors almost in the movie.

The characters are actors in this, and they're not supposed to know.

Like, John David Washington isn't.

He's not supposed to know that he actually is who he is.

Yeah.

And then on top of that, Christopher Nolan just.

He likes having an air of mystique about the movies that he puts out, especially his original works, when he's not adapting something.

He doesn't want people to think they know what's going to happen when they first go in.

And so he tries to keep everything as vague as possible and let the movie speak for itself.

Like, that was kind of what happened with Oppenheimer.

He.

I don't think he even said it was based on American Prometheus until, like, right around when the movie came out.

Yeah.

So, yeah, you're.

You're kind of sitting There wondering like exactly what it's going to be.

And then when it happens, instead of taking your own presupposed ideas of what it should be, you're just watching it for what it is.

Yeah.

I have a bit of a theory about Nolan and I'm not as well versed, I think, as maybe you guys are.

But, but like I've seen most of his movies and I kind of figured out after Inception for me that like pretty much to me all of his movies at some level are about what happens to us when we watch movies.

Kind of.

Yeah.

And like what, what we go through like the experience of like deciphering a plot, deciphering what it means to us and just like how the movie going experience can even in a tiny, tiny way can kind of transform us when we're, when we're done watching that movie.

And I kind of went into watching this movie kind of thinking about that especially because the, the guy's name is the protagonist.

And honestly it's one of my critiques of Nolan sometimes is that yeah, he can kind of be a little heavy handed with like, hey, here's how much I know about movies, here's how much I know about storytelling.

Which, you know, that's fine but, but like, but it does kind of get like, I don't know, it feels a little, what's the word, shall we say, pretentious sometimes self indulgent.

Yeah.

But then again you think about it at its, at its core level.

If you're making art, if you're not doing a Marvel movie where you're, you're strictly following a plan that's been set out in front of you.

All good art is self indulgent at times because it is the purest form of self expression.

Like you're literally putting a piece of yourself out.

So yeah, you should be a little self indulgent.

But I get, I get where people have the critique that it might come across as pretentious, but it's like what, what great artist doesn't have a little twinge of pretense?

It doesn't bother me at all.

I feel like he should totally flex in each one of his movies cuz like they're masterpieces.

Right.

But like, and so, but, but what you're talking about with like how they were part, the actors were partitioned with reading the screenplays and could only read certain parts of it.

Like sometimes that gets under my skin a little bit because I'm also an actor and I, and I kind of have some experience with that.

Too.

But I.

I kind of feel like it's okay for directors to just trust their actors.

Sure.

Do you know, you guys, was it the Hateful Eight where.

Where Tarantino, Tarantino, Jennifer Jason Lee and Walton Goggins.

Yeah, Walton Goggins.

They have that guitar.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

With Kurt Russell.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And they swapped out the guitar for, like, this art.

Like this.

An original Holy Grails Taylor guitar.

Yeah.

Oh.

As a Martin.

Martin guitar.

My bad.

It's like a holy grail of acoustic guitars, right?

Yeah.

Literally, like 250,000 ish.

I think maybe even up to a million that they had it insured for, but it was technically priceless.

Yeah.

And so.

And so they were supposed to use the dummy guitar that Kurt Russell was supposed to smash and Tarantino's like, use the real guitar, man.

And see, I've heard that.

I don't.

But I've also heard that it was completely an accident.

Well, maybe.

Yeah.

Well, this.

This.

This is what.

What I've heard.

I've heard that Tarantino did.

I don't.

I don't want to besmirch.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, I don't want to get in any, you know, problem.

But, like, either way, like, the reaction that Jennifer.

Jason Lee had to that guitar smashing was not just, oh, my God, the character, but it was like Jennifer Jason Leigh seeing that guitar.

Yeah.

Get destroyed.

And she had sort of developed a connection with the guitar.

It was really messed up.

Right.

Yeah.

And I feel like sometimes directors don't trust their actors enough, you know, like, just.

She could totally just act that.

Oh, definitely.

And I don't know.

But with this one, I don't know if I feel that.

That way about the story, but I do kind of feel like you could totally just give your actors these scripts and just let them read it and figure it out.

But while I do agree with that, what I know about Nolan, like, Gary Oldman just recently did an interview where he was talking about how Christopher Nolan has only ever given him one note.

In every movie that they've done together, he's only given him one note.

And that one note was simply in one particular scene, he just stopped and said, hey, the stakes are higher.

That's the only note he's ever given Gary Old.

And.

And so to me, I think.

I think Nolan's method, and.

And I.

I only know so much.

Haven't met the man.

I haven't watched him work in person.

But I feel like Nolan's method is to put the actors in the situation as much as he can.

Because if you remember, in this whole movie, John Day, the protagonist, John David Washington, doesn't trust Robert Pattinson.

He doesn't trust, really anyone around him.

And so by purposefully making sure that they didn't bond over reading the script, I feel like just added a little bit of emotional layer to that where because they haven't formed a bond, they don't fully trust each other until the end of the movie.

That is super cool.

So that's.

That's my assumption.

And there's definitely.

I.

I agree with what you're saying.

Both of you.

Both are interesting and.

And there are more demented.

We just covered the Shining, and there's, you know.

Nice.

Kubrick is more demented in this way.

Like, one of the reasons he loved Nicholson is because even when someone would screw up, Nicholson would finish the take.

Yeah.

He always finished the take.

Even if it was the 130th take and he knew it was a dead take.

He did it because he knew Kubrick wanted a palette.

Yeah, he.

That was the version of a painter's palette.

He wanted options.

Yeah.

But Duvall didn't know how to do that because she was in.

You know, she was olive oil.

She had done, like, some pretty.

And.

But she was out of.

She was a fish out of water.

It's rough for her, man.

It was rough for her, and she would never finish take.

And.

And she felt intimidated by Nicholson because he would go all the way to the end.

And Nicholson was frustrated with Duvall, and she was already being punished by Kubrick on a regular basis.

So there are more demented.

Yeah, it really depends on the director.

Was.

Tarantino is incredibly collaborative.

He is.

He creates and he's talking a lot and talking to them, but he's always trying to empower the actors to find their power on set.

So it's interesting.

It's very much director to director.

Yeah.

Also, I feel like Nolan is just at a point now where if his script gets leaked, he's fucked because it just ruins all mystique around the movie.

And I feel like Tenet.

Especially if that script had gotten leaked before the movie had come out or if story elements had come out, people would have really gone into it expecting something that.

It wasn't the only insight, because I did a project with somebody who was in a Nolan movie.

Oh, nice.

And I don't know if I want to say it, because, I don't know.

I don't think it's a big deal.

But.

But it was a recent Nolan movie, and he did.

He was a day player on this movie.

Okay.

And he kind of just told me how it went and apparently it was a really super professional, like, really efficient, oh, yeah.

Kind of thing.

And.

But yeah, this sort of firsthand experience that I've gotten, like, this guy was just loving the whole experience.

Oh, yeah.

He was a really great director to work with as an actor.

So.

Yeah.

I mean, there's a reason why every single actor that works with him wants to work with him again and will literally take massive pay cuts just so they can be in front of the camera with him.

Like, he's just that respected by his actors.

Randos.

Randos do that to you?

I love randos.

Randos.

They'll bring it out of you, baby.

They will in life too.

Yeah.

They are the entity.

What's crazy is the.

So I was wondering this because I hadn't done the research yet.

This was my first watch.

I was like, did they film and were they like actually doing this in reverse or is there some effect here?

But they were doing choreography.

So they had reversed choreography for fight scenes.

And Kenneth Branagh specifically had to do.

He not only was doing the Russian accent, but he was also having to learn those backwards.

And so those lines are him actually talking backwards with a Russian accent here.

Yeah.

Yep, bro.

When he said lack of effects, we're talking like, lack of effects.

Yeah, like, we're talking backwards.

That's crazy.

Yeah, yeah.

Learning Russian and then learning it backwards.

Yes, bro.

And it sounded awesome.

So good.

Because in that.

Isn't that the scene where he's like, I thought you said these.

These were Estonians or whatever in the car.

And he's like, they are, you know, but then they're like trying to figure out what the accent is.

And.

Well, there's that, but there's also the scene where.

Where he's on either side of the.

The turnstile and so he sees Kenneth Branagh and the wife on the other side and he's threatening her, trying to get the information on where the piece of the puzzle is.

Yeah.

Wow.

So good.

That's the stuff that makes me excited.

Kind of what you said earlier, people.

All over this movie when it came out.

I know.

That's why I said my intro.

Does this movie deserve a bogey?

It just came out at the wrong time.

That's crazy.

Like, and I did watch it just, just today.

And so, like.

Like, I kind of can't believe that reaction.

I think it's one of those things that got like.

Like just kind of mushroom clouded pun Intended, actually.

But.

Yeah, but like, over time, just like the one person didn't like it and then all of a sudden, I guess maybe people were in a surly mood anyway because Pandemic.

So, like, I'll say this as someone who absolutely loves Christopher Nolan, I don't think it's his best movie.

It's probably top five for me.

But I think people putting it at the bottom just either just did not understand it or were choosing to be part of that contrarian crowd that was just like, oh, it was for this reason.

Yeah.

No, this is.

You try to come up with something like this.

You try to go in there and be like, no, we're gonna make you walk backwards, but I need you to look like you're walking forwards because we're gonna reverse this shot so that he's actually walking backwards.

Like you try to come up with something.

Yeah.

This is one of the highest concept, high concept movies.

Seriously.

And.

And yet at the same time, done for, like, incredibly low production value.

Like, again, you're.

You don't have all sorts of crazy computer effects happening.

Everything's done in camera.

Everything's done using old school film techniques.

Well, it's the trade off of every great artist, every great artisan.

And that trade off is they.

For the high art concept for.

And.

And they wouldn't call themselves high art.

But.

But those who are capable of generating high art in whatever art form that is, the trade off is they're not going to spoon feed you.

Yeah.

And that.

They have no desire to spoon feed you.

You come to the trough.

Yeah.

And you take from it and they want you to interpret it.

And even then Nolan kind of tries to spoon feed everybody more so than others.

Yeah.

He does what he can to explain everything you need to know at the beginning.

Yeah.

And then he's like, all right, if you don't understand it, you're shit out of luck.

I'm sorry.

Like, that's the trade off of Kubrick.

If you did a Kubrick film, Barry Lyndon, the Shining, and he wasn't explicit about it in the Shining, but if you were doing the Shining, you had to be committed and Eyes Wide Shut, you couldn't do anything else.

You signed Nicole Kidman, Tom Cruise, they all signed contracts and said, you will do nothing else.

Yeah.

You are doing this movie for this amount of time and you're contractually obligated.

That was the trade off.

And that was the simplest version of this is, you know, and this.

You'll laugh at this.

But the Soup Nazi in seinfeld yeah.

Right.

You suffer for your soup.

Why would I expect any less from my customers?

You know what I'm saying?

And that.

But that actually in simple terms explains the great artisan dilemma, which is you're going to create this thing and.

But I'm not going to spoon feed it to you.

Come to me.

Exactly.

I present it and you take away what you will.

Yeah.

And that's.

It's risky because some people won't get it and they're going to shit on it.

Yeah.

So it is what it is.

Art is that subjective.

Yeah.

What was the rando for this one?

I forgot.

Oh, we were.

Oh, they were working backwards.

The conversation is just so good.

We keep going.

Yeah.

The lack of visual effects, people moving.

And speaking backwards, learning Russian and learning talking backwards.

So, okay, so when is when they do like the explosions in that last big set piece where they're in the desert and like they have the explosions that are exploding and then the explosions that are imploding because they're backwards in time.

Is that.

Oh, so I just bumped the mic.

Is that all practical?

Yep, that is it.

So that it's just like superimposed.

That one shot that looks like, you know, the two shots.

That's actually four shots put together.

One of it exploding, but then going up so they can reverse it and then it exploding in forward time and then they swap to the other side where the top comes together and then the bottom explodes.

That's four shots put together to look like two shots.

That's wild.

Yeah.

But again, no green screen was involved in that.

It's just a miniature set that they blew up four times.

So this is crazy.

They worked on the script and the screenplay for six years, but this was on Nolan's mind for 20 years.

This concept he had had for 20 years.

And he was kind of obsessed with this, these details.

So it's really, you know, maybe this is the, the inception of this idea of where his time obsession actually began.

Obviously Memento was kind of the kickoff, but this is, this is an idea that, that supersedes a lot of the movies he's released that revolve around these concepts.

Yeah, I feel like he started working on the concept for this around the same time as when he started working on Inception.

And at the time he was like, oh yeah, I've been writing the script for 10 years.

Yeah.

So I feel like he came up with the concepts.

But like Inception, I think he was able to.

To wrap his brain around a little better at first.

And then that kind of was his stepping stone into being able to do this one.

Wow.

Yeah.

Also at the time, this was the largest budget.

205 million for an original non franchise film.

Damn.

So not a marvel, not something that's in a series original film.

At the time.

205 million.

It was, I think it was his.

Second largest budget in general.

Directly behind the Dark Knight Rises.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a huge budget.

Yeah.

Dark Knight rises was 235 million.

Is this the largest budget we've discussed?

Maybe.

Because I don't think we've hit past 100 million yet on a movie we've discussed.

What was the new crow one made for 50 million?

Oh, yeah, 45 million.

This might be.

Yeah, this might be.

Talk about high concept.

Seriously.

It makes sense though, because like he.

I could see why he needed all of that.

Yeah.

For the.

And another thing that I've heard about him is that he wants to be really efficient with his budgets.

Oh, yeah.

Like, so have you heard the story.

About the shooting schedule for Oppenheimer?

Tell me.

So the original shooting schedule was, I think like 87 days.

And then they realized they needed another $20 million to physically build Los Alamos.

Because he.

To him, it was like, if we can't build the entire city of Los Alamos, it's not going to be worth it.

And his production designer was like, we could build a few of the buildings, but we can't do it all.

So he goes, give me a weekend.

I.

I'll find you your money.

And he comes back and he cut the shooting schedule down to 59 days and was like, we're going to do the whole movie in less than two months.

Here's your 20 million.

Go build Los Alamos.

He inversed and went back in time and found the money.

Basically went into the bank vacuum thing.

Yeah.

And.

And was like, we don't need.

We can put this on this day.

We can put this on this day.

We don't need all this time.

Cut an entire month out of the shooting schedule.

Wow.

And there was the 20 million to build what he needed to build.

And this sounds cheesy, but that's probably my favorite thing about that movie.

Is that set?

Well, I mean, half the time.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

It's incredible.

And half the time, like whenever they're out in like a field or whatever, all the actors were saying, it was literally Nolan, Hoyta Van Hoytema with, with his IMAX rig and the sound guy.

And those were the only crew members on set.

Oh, I love that.

Yeah.

Can I just say something about Oppenheimer, too?

Yeah, yeah.

This goes out to all you people who are bored by Oppenheimer.

Just chill the out with that.

The Bordenheimers.

Come on, man.

Just maybe just, like, watch the movie.

Like, I don't know.

And like.

And, like, get over that.

There's not always explosions.

There's a huge explosion in the middle of the movie.

That's probably the one of the greatest explosions you'll ever see.

So many people criticize that.

They say it looks fake.

As I'm like, did you watch the actual Trinity explosion?

It looks almost identical.

I also think, did they want to.

Did they think it was going to be World War II footage?

Like, was it going to be a World War II film?

They were expecting that.

That explosion to look like the megaton explosions that we're used to seeing in nuclear test footage.

Yeah.

So when you literally go back to the very first, smallest nuclear explosion in history, everyone's like, oh, it just looks like a gasoline explosion.

Okay.

Yeah, it technically was, but it looks like the actual Trinity footage.

Like, come on, guys.

The coolest.

Like, the coolest thing to watch in Oppenheimer is the acting, right?

It's the actors doing the acting.

Yeah.

It's so good.

It's so good.

Like, and.

And I think that's the hardest Josh Peck has ever acted in his life.

Yeah.

Like, I think the whole time he's just like, I'mma do it.

I'm here in front of Christopher Nolan.

I'm going to push that button.

Hell yeah, man.

Well, the music and everything and the.

The tension.

The tension.

Okay.

If you were bored by Oppenheimer, okay, that's.

You get to be bored by Oppenheimer, that's fine.

But, like, it, you know, not, you know, it's.

It's also fine to be really excited by seeing this really amazing piece of film.

And if there's anyone to ding for realism.

Let's.

Let's maybe leave no one out of that conversation.

Yeah.

For real.

Yeah.

This is the dude that spent millions of dollars on the cafe scene on air cannons.

Yeah.

In Inception.

So that it was truly stuff exploding.

And, yeah.

They had one shot, and he argued to get a second camera.

He did not want that second camera.

Like, we have to get the second camera because we this up.

Yeah.

And he was like, fine, let's not argue about realism with Mr.

Nolan.

Yeah.

For real.

Well, also, that movie is about maybe the most important moment in history, in modern history.

Like, and it deserves to look at the people who made it.

Yeah.

You know, and so, I don't know.

Like, it's not Inception, guys.

Yeah.

We're not doing the Dark Knight.

It's a different kind of.

It's a biopic.

It's a human film.

Yeah.

It's not about the bomb.

It's about the humans.

It's a biopic about a bunch of science nerds.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah, a lot of your stuff, a lot of your action sequences are going to be at chalkboards.

Yeah.

I love what you said.

Preach it.

Preach it, brother.

And lastly, this was my favorite thing I uncovered.

So obviously, he took a creative Liberty.

Liberty.

Liberty.

Liberties earlier on New Year's Eve.

Yeah, yeah.

His liberty hurts.

Yeah, yeah.

So in Inception, he.

He says.

Which is hard to believe.

I don't know if I believe him, but he does that.

He did zero research for Inception on Dreams or anything like that.

But this one, he partnered and became friends with and got feedback from physicist, renowned physics physicist Kip Thorne.

Okay.

And he looked at the script and he.

They worked through these concepts together.

And he's considered, I guess, an academic.

Academic genius.

I don't dabble in.

Yeah.

Physics.

But I think he's also credited as an executive producer.

Like, that's how involved he was in this movie.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

So he took a few liberties, but based on my research, he didn't.

He didn't go too, too far.

Yeah, yeah.

No relation to Rip Torn, the actor.

Or Richard Thorne and Omen 2.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

Damn.

Damn.

Sorry.

I just.

I felt like I had to go back farther than you.

I was like, how can I beat this guy?

But I.

Maybe they're all three the same person.

Maybe they're ten versions each other.

Yes.

There we go.

Yes.

Kip Thorne, Rip Torn, and Richard Thorne.

Kip's kind of a weird scientist name.

A little bit.

Yeah, yeah.

Yes.

Eagle Scout.

That's an Eagle Scout.

I know some music musicians named Kip Napoleon Dynamite's brother.

I've never seen Napoleon Dynamite.

Oh, that's the next movie we should do.

I don't know.

Kind of like the reaction of people who.

Who hear me say, I've never seen it before.

I've never.

Sorry.

I've never.

It's not on our list.

It's funny.

We have literally almost thousand movies on a list that we want to cover, and that's not on there.

It's because it was just in my face when it came up, people.

The.

The, The.

The impersonations.

Yeah.

No, One would shut up.

No one would shut up.

And when I finally saw it, I was like, this is the dog that I thought it would be.

Yeah.

Might be the pinnacle of civilization for me.

Nice.

Well, maybe you should start a podcast.

I'm just kidding.

No, I could be convinced.

Yeah, just like.

Just like everything else about.

For sale.

So I've been showing my kid YouTube videos of some of my favorite movies, but just the clips, right?