In today’s podcast we discuss whether email marketing is still effective at driving ecommerce sales. (Spoiler alert. It absolutely is)

My guest is Hannah Spicer, an email marketing consultant who helps premium and luxury brands drive more ecommerce sales. Hannah specialises in working with an email tool called Klaviyo.

Don’t worry if you are not using Klaviyo, Hannah’s tips can be applied to whichever email marketing platform you are using. 

We discuss:

• The type of emails you should be sending
• How you can automate your emails
• The types of automations you can use
• How to segment your list (and what this means)

Whether you are just starting out with sending emails, or would like to drive more sales from what you are doing, this is the podcast for you. 

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Welcome to the bring your product idea to Life podcast.

This is the podcast for you if you're getting started selling products or if you'd

like to create your own product to sell. I'm Vicki Weinberg, a product

creation coach and Amazon expert. Every week I share friendly,

practical advice as well as inspirational stories from small businesses.

Let's get started.

Hello. Today on the podcast, I'm speaking with Hannah Spicer.

Hannah is an email marketing consultant who helps premium and luxury brands

drive more ecommerce sales. She specializes in working with an email tool

called Klaviyo. And that's what we're talking about today. We don't just talk about

Klaviyo, however. So if you're thinking, oh, actually, I'm using a different tool,

will this be relevant for me? Absolutely. Will. Hannah also talks about

email marketing in general and whether it's still effective at driving ecommerce

sales. Spoiler alert. It absolutely is. And she talks about the

types of emails that we can be sending and interestingly, about how

you can automate emails and what kind of automations you can

use and also how to segment your email list and what this means and why

it's useful. So whether you are just getting started in email female marketing

or you've been doing it for a while and would love to see if it

can bring you in more sales, I think you'll find this a really useful and

interesting episode. And I would love now to introduce you to Hannah.

Hi,

Hannah. Thank you so much for being here. My pleasure. Thank you for

having me. Can we start with you? Please give an introduction to you, your business

and what you do. Yeah, absolutely. So, my name's Hannah

Spicer. I've worked in e commerce and digital marketing for

20 years now and I run an email marketing

consultancy business that helps premium and luxury

brands drive more revenue from their email marketing. Thank

you. So, Hannah, the first question I've got for you, and this is probably one

on behalf of listeners, is why should we be using email

marketing? Does email marketing still drive sales for e commerce

businesses? Oh, yes, hugely. It's actually

normally the sale that drives the biggest proportion. I'm sorry, the

channel that drives the biggest proportion of sales. So 100%.

It's what we call a bottom of funnel channel, which means that

if you think about the people that you're sending emails to, they've already

discovered your brand, they've probably come to your website and they've chosen

to share their data with you. So they're actually a very warm and engaged

audience and that tends to be why? Email has the highest

conversion rate across the digital marketing channels and the highest

return on investment. So it's a huge area of

potential and you should definitely have it as part of your marketing mix.

That's really interesting. Thank you. Because I think that

nowadays everyone's on so many social channels and everywhere

else, so I think that, I'm sure there were people wondering, is email still

something to think about? So that's really helpful. Thank you.

If you don't mind, I'd love to talk a little bit about the difference between

different types of emails. Because whenever I hear or

read someone talking about email marketing, sometimes they'll talk about

newsletters, sometimes they'll talk about bulletins, sometimes they'll talk about

automations. What are the types of emails and the

differences for each, please? Yeah, great question. There's

two main types and I'll try and cover as many terms as I've heard used

for each of them. So the first one is what you might call a

newsletter. Some people call them trade emails, business as

usual emails. And in some email tools like

Klaviyo, they're called campaigns. So that essentially is an

email that you go into the tool you create yourself and

you send it one off. So that might be like new in this

week or sale launch or a new collection launch,

the other side of things. So the other type of email is either called an

automation or a triggered email or a flow. And

that's basically an email or a series of emails that you

set up and then they run in the background for you and they are triggering

depending on something the user has done. So two of the most

common ones that hopefully everyone would be familiar with is one is a

welcome flow. When you first sign up to someone's emails, you'll

get hopefully an immediate confirmation. And then let's say two days later

you might get a follow up email. And another one as a

shopper that we'll probably be familiar with is an abandoned cart email.

So that's when you've gone to a website, you've added something to your cart, but

you didn't complete the checkout. And again, you'll typically get a

reminder perhaps 1 hour after you've done that, and then if you don't shop,

perhaps 24 hours after. So those are two of the kind of most

common flows or automations, but there are

tens of hundreds that you can create for your customers.

In an ideal world, you've got both of those kinds of emails

happening at once because your campaigns help you send

timely messages and they keep your brand top of mind and

then your flows respond to what action the user takes off the back of that.

So if you've got both, you're going to be getting the most out of your

email channel. That's perfect. Thank you. And I'm not going to ask

lots of questions about newsletters or campaigns because I'm sure we've covered

that in other episodes. But I would really love to talk a little bit more

about automations because as you say, you can set up

automations for all kinds of things, can't you? You know, after the

purchase or your product's been shipped or leave a review. There's so many

ways these can be used based on what a customer does on your

website, assuming you have something that's linking to a website, that is, and we can

talk perhaps a little bit more about that. But which of these automations

do we really need? If for someone listening, they haven't even thought about

automations. Maybe they've got their newsletter that's going out. That's great.

But nothing is automatically happening. Which of the

automations we absolutely need and perhaps the ones that we can

start with. Yeah, so I tend to say

to prioritize for to begin with. So if you're a startup or if

you're just getting started with the flow side of things. So two of

those already mentioned. One is the welcome flow because you obviously want to create

a really good first impression when somebody first signs up to your email

marketing. And lots of brands will also have a welcome offer. So that

is very good at driving sales. It's typically the

top sales driver out of all of the flows. The

second one is the abandoned cart. So that's obviously really important for as well,

kind of recapturing potentially lost sales. The other two

I'd prioritize are what's called an abandoned browser

that's a bit earlier on in the purchase journey. So that's when someone has

come to a website and they've looked at a product, but they didn't add

it to bag and they didn't check out. So they've still shown some intent and

some interest. But it's again worth triggering some reminder

emails to get them to come back and complete their order. And the

final one would be a post purchase flow. Obviously, we don't just want

to leave customers who do actually place an order with us. We want to kind

of nurture them after that happens as well. And that can be

things like, you know, asking them to engage with you on social media, as you

said, like asking for a review, but you can also send

kind of care or inspiration of how to use or wear your

product, and then you can start to try and cross sell and upsell to them

after they place their order. So I really think if you're doing email

marketing, you should have those four flows in place as soon

as possible, really to get you in a good position. That's really

useful. Thank you. And thank you for giving some examples of what we can put

in them as well, because I think that can be definitely be something that holds

people back from setting them up in the first places. What do I

say? And how easy are these sorts of

flows to set up? I'm sure it's going to depend on the service you're

using. Yeah. So, I mean, I

only work with an email tool called Klaviyo because I think it's the best out

there for ecommerce businesses. It's got a very strong

relationship with Shopify, but also providers like

BigCommerce and WooCommerce as well. What Klaviyo do

have are lots of help articles, but they also have what they call

blueprints, which is if you don't really know how to get started, you can

start with a blueprint, which is they'll kind of create a basic flow

for you, and then you can start to think about what content you want to

put in each of those. So it's definitely something that could get you

started. And I guess it's worth as well,

kind of signing up to some of your competitors and going through these journeys on

their websites. Because we can all do that. We can all

see these emails. Right? So you could deliberately trigger some abandoned cart

emails. You can sign up to welcome emails. Of course.

That should also kind of give you a sense and some inspiration of how to

get started with the flows. That's a really good tip. Thank you. I hadn't

actually thought about signing up to competitors to see what they're doing, but that's a

really good idea. I think when you're stuck for inspiration, it's always

good to see what other people are doing. Yeah, absolutely.

And you mentioned Klaviyo there, Hannah, and I have heard of Klaviyo, I'll be

honest, but I don't know tons about it. So as well as

automations, what else does Klaviyo do? That means that, because I know you said this

is one that you really recommend. Yeah. What else does it

do? So I think for me, Klaviyo stands out because

it was built specifically for ecommerce businesses and that means

there's a lot of best practice and easy kind of usability

baked into the platform. So there's four kind of main sections

to klaviyo. One is the flows that we've talked about. One

is forms. So you can also actually kind of build your kind of data capture

pop ups within klaviyo. Two, and everything will feed through

automatically to your welcome flow. There is

campaigns, so those are the newsletters that you want to send. And then there's obviously

your kind of customer data section. So you can look at all of

your subscribers and shoppers in there and look at kind

of endless, really rich information on them as well, actually. So you can also

build segments in there. So perhaps you want to build a segment of

anyone who visited the site in the last six months but hasn't placed an

order yet, or anyone who's shopped more than once. And so you

can look at your repeat customers. The functionality there is very

kind of easy to use as a marketer. You don't have to be, be a

coder or anything like that. It's very kind of user friendly.

So those are the kind of main sections. And it's so

powerful when you plug it in to shopify to kind of drive

a really good percentage of revenue for you. That's really interesting.

Thank you. And I do want to go back to something you mentioned a moment

ago, because you spoke about segmenting your email list. Do

you mind breaking down for us what that means? Yeah. So

segmentation is really talking to specific groups of

customers, depending on their behaviour or particular properties

about them. Probably the most common ways to do this

are website behavior. So, as I mentioned, you could talk to your

existing customers slightly differently, to anyone who hasn't shopped with you

before. Or you could talk to your vip segment differently. For example,

that might be anyone who shopped more than three times with you or has spent

over a certain amount. Another really common way is email

engagement. So you might want to talk to your, the people that are kind of

opening and clicking and engaging with your emails the most. You might decide to talk

to them a bit more frequently, and then those who are showing they're not quite

so interested, you might want to kind of taper them off a bit. So

those are two potential ways to use segments.

What I would say is if you've got a smaller database, so let's

say potentially less than 5000 subscribers, and if you've

got flows in place, I wouldn't get too concerned about starting to

segment. It's probably not worth your while. Trying to kind of

take that database down into smaller groups. Your

flows are going to help you talk to people in a relevant way anyway.

It's more as your email database starts to grow that you should

tend to start to think about that. So don't worry if you're just getting

started. That's really helpful. Thank you. But I assume

that once you are ready to start segmenting your database, because you've mentioned all these

clever things you can do whether someone's purchased you or not. And how many times

is that something Klaviyo can do for you automatically? Can it put all of this

in? Yeah, it's got all of that data because it's looking at

your purchase behavior, it's looking at how people are behaving on your

site and it's looking at your email data. So anything you've already got

there, it can work on. And you can also plug in

other information. So whether it's information from your store

poS or your reviews tool or your customer service

tool, any data that you can plug into that kind of Shopify and

Klaviyo ecosystem can be used to segment your

customers. That sounds really useful. Thank you. And can you even go

down to, I don't know which products people are buying? So I'm just

thinking off top of my head that if someone's buying products a,

rather than product b, they might need a different follow up sequence, for example.

Yeah, absolutely. That's a great example. Yeah. So some of my

clients who either have fairly small

product catalogs, so let's say they might have nine products if they're kind

of. I've got like a beauty well being customer who has that

smaller catalog, or brands with bigger catalogs

sometimes pick out their kind of three best selling products or categories

and create specific versions for those. Exactly. So you can

get really relevant and targeted in that way.

That's really helpful. And so you mentioned that you're working with luxury

brands at the moment. Are there anything that the brands you're working with,

any examples that come to mind? Obviously, you don't need to share the brands of

things that people are doing with emails that you think, oh, actually that's

really good. And that's something that another brand could do in their own way, of

course. Yeah, absolutely. I mean,

interestingly, I work with premium and luxury brands, but a lot of

the kind of strategy and the things that they're doing applies to

any product based business, really. So as I said, those kind of

core strategies of creating flows and talking to

people and nurturing them at whatever stage of the life cycle they're at.

A welcome journey, regardless of the product, is about kind of

hopefully showing someone some kind of offer an incentive,

bringing them on board, telling them about your brand and then trying to nurture them

to shop with you for the first time. Abandoned browse is

about kind of reminding people of your unique selling points and kind of building

that trust and getting them to come back and kind of purchase for

you. Post purchase is about kind of nurturing

them after they've shopped and kind of cross selling and upselling to them and

hopefully increasing their repeat purchases.

The strategies and the tools are the same. It

just depending on your business and your product,

your messaging and your design and your timing will probably

be different, but a lot of those things are relevant for

everybody. That's really helpful. Thank you. So,

actually, I'm thinking as a business, you could go and look at the emails you

get from any business you're signed up to as a

consumer for inspiration in that case, which is really

nice. Yeah, absolutely. And there are, you know,

focused on those kind of priority flows. There are lots of other stages of the

journey that you can look at. So another one I really like is called a

win back flow, which is if somebody has shopped with you before,

but let's say they haven't for, I don't know, four or six months,

you can then try and incentivize them to shop with you again so it

can feel really targeted and personalized. You can say, you know, dear

Vicky, as a valued customer of ours, we noticed you haven't shopped for a while.

We'd love to give you ten pounds off your next order.

That's another really good flow, actually, because it's always

cheaper to kind of reactivate an existing customer than acquire a new

one. So that's another one to bring into the suite. Once you're a bit more,

you know what you're doing and you've dipped your toe in the water.

That's really helpful. Thank you. I really like that example. I've actually got a few

of those recently. It feels like that's something more and more brands are starting to

do, actually. Yeah, I think so, yeah. And do you think

that this is maybe slightly off topic, but I'm really curious because you would have

had lots of experience with this. Do you feel that when they're

receiving, like, a flow, whether it's welcome, you've signed up for their site,

or an abandoned cart, or you haven't shopped for a while, do you think

customers are expecting to get some sort of benefit from that email. So

quite often, for example, I'll get ones from brands where they say, oh, you've left

this in your basket, purchase now and get 10% off as an

example. And there are definitely brands where I know that's coming

and I maybe don't check out right away because you know that if you don't,

you're going to get that email. I'm hopefully not the only one who does this.

Or as you say, you get something and you get an email saying, well, you

haven't shopped for a while, here's a bonus.

Do you think there's an expectation from the consumer that's

happening? And how much do brands need to think about that? I guess is what

I'm saying, because especially for a small business, it's really

hard to be building discounts in that much.

Absolutely. Yeah. So that's a really good question.

I think customers definitely expect some kind of welcome offer

and I do recommend to, I think, nearly all my clients to have

one because it helps build your database and it helps to convert them to a

customer. I think in all other instances, you need

to be quite strategic and tactical with these promotions.

So the example that you talked about of kind of abandoning your

cart, I would only ever include an offer in that

email when it's the second reminder email, so not the first one, because

sometimes people just do need a kind of a nudge and a reminder, but the

follow up email that goes 24 hours later. I would include a code,

but only if they've never shopped with you before. So you can make these kind

of different journeys for different types of customers. As I said, kind of your

existing customers versus your leads only offer them incentive if they haven't

shopped with you before, then it's the same as your welcome offer. Basically,

the win back, I think, is slightly different and I think you genuinely are kind

of reactivating an existing customer. And I also say at that point,

your discount should actually be better than your welcome offer because you should be

treating an existing customer more, more specially than you do

a new customer. Those are kind of main

places I bring it in, but other places are things like anniversary of first

purchase, or you might ask people for their birthday and send them a gift on

their birthday. I think as long as you are

explaining the reason for the discount in the automation

and you're making those codes unique, which you can do

very easily if you're using Klavi and Shopify. So rather than it being a

happy birthday, it's a mix of numbers and letters that they can't

reuse, they can't share. So it feels much more exclusive and

exciting. I think those are the ways to make sure you're kind of protecting

your margin everywhere you can. Thank you. That's so

helpful. Because it's really hard, isn't it? Because all of us are consumers as well

as business owners, so we all want to feel like we're getting that

special discount. And also, as a business owner, it can be hard

to kind of give away margin on every purchase. And

I've definitely seen it's a lot of bigger brand. I'm not going to name them.

There were definitely some bigger brands who seem like they give you a discount every

day of the week, but presumably they planned for that. But it's a

small card. Yeah. I think we all know those

brands and I do know one of them that builds that into their

prices, so they expect that most of their purchases are going to happen

at a discount and that's kind of built in. But, yes, I agree. And I

think by using those discounts strategically, hopefully it

means you can avoid more kind of mass discounting and sale periods as

well. So it's a better way to do it. Yeah. And they also feel more

valuable as well. I know that the brands where you very rarely get. Get a

discount, and I do think a lot of luxury brands fit in that category. They

maybe only do a discount a certain times of the year or certain points for

you as a customer. It does feel. It does

for me. It does inspire me to purchase more because I know that

I'm not going to be getting that same offer next week, next month, whatever it

is. Absolutely, yeah. And look, you don't have to do

discounts. It's not a rule that you have to follow. And it doesn't have to

be a percentage off, could be a monetary value, it could be

a delivery promotion, it could be a gift with purchase, it could be

an exclusive service or something. So don't feel that you have to. But

they do tend to be the most effective kind of actually driving those sales.

It's really useful advice, though. Thank you, Hannah. Because I think actually, for me, sometimes

free delivery is enough to, you know, to make that

difference, but it's good that, you know, people can think of different ways and try

different things and see what works. Yeah.

So we've spoken quite a lot about Klaviyo. I would love to know,

for anyone who's sort of thinking, oh, yes, actually, that sounds really good. I mean,

for me. The fact that it integrates with all these platforms I think is a

huge bonus because I can't remember what I used a long

time ago, I had a shopify site and I remember I had to copy and

paste any subscriber details into my. Whatever. I

can't even tell you what I was using for email. So we're going back a

long time. I had to copy and paste them in manually. So I'm sure the

fact that everything integrates so well with a big bonus.

But how would you go about getting started? Because I feel like for

any new piece of software or tool, for a lot of us, there is that

thing of, oh, gosh, is it just going to be a load of hassle to

start doing something new, however good it sounds? So is it easy

to get started? How would we do that? It is. So,

yeah, I think it's about taking the first step and kind of creating a Klaviyo

account and having a little look around. They do have, as I said, blueprints.

They've got lots of help articles. They've even got kind of course, you can do

training courses if you don't want to do that,

because you're running the entire rest of your business and you're focusing on your other

digital marketing channels as well. You can hand that over

to somebody else. So that is one of the services that I offer, too, which

is a kind of full setup for you. And the aim of

my service is to take all the heavy lifting out of that. So I would

copyright, design, build and launch all of your

flows for you. So hand it over to me and four to six

weeks later, everything is there, ready, and it's running for you. And

then hopefully you feel confident and empowered to kind of go in and send,

I don't know, a weekly campaign to kind of help drive that channel

further. But the beauty of Klaviyo

is when you've got those flows set up, you don't have to do anything with

them on a day to day basis. So the bare minimum is you kind of

want to check in once a month to just kind of make sure everything is

triggering as expected and have a look at the benchmarks. But you haven't

actually got to do anything with them. They're running in the background for you

that's really useful. Thank you. And I've got another question about getting set

up. Before I ask you that one, I'd love to know because I didn't think.

I've only thought about this when you said about checking in every month. Does Klaviyo

give you any sort of analytics? Can you see how many people are receiving your

email, opening your email, clicking, buying? You

can see nearly everything that you would think that you might want to. So they

have a lovely dashboard when you first log in, which shows you the

percentage of overall site revenue that Klaviyo has driven for you in the last 30

days, which is always really encouraging to see. And then you can see a

breakdown of the performance by campaigns and flows,

but you can go into any detail you want. So you could go into each

individual flow and look at, as you said, who's opened, who's clicked, who's

converted. You can even click into an individual email and look

at almost like a heat map of where people are clicking on the email. So

I think one of the, the beauties of email is that everything is

completely trackable. So, yes, you can see all of your

metrics. And Klaviyo also will show you kind of benchmark

against other clients that they have in your industry. So if you're beauty, or if

you're apparel or sportswear, whatever it is,

they can show you how you're kind of performing against their other clients, which is

really useful, too. Yeah, that sounds really good. And I like the fact you

mentioned you can see sort of the sales you're making from each email as well.

Yeah, because, I mean, that is the goal. Yeah, because that is the goal, isn't

it? And I think, especially if you're trialing different emails, perhaps, or

you're trying to work out how well your flows are performing, it must be really

good to be able to see, are they making me money or not?

Definitely. And my other question about getting started,

sorry, because I know I'm jumping about a bit by sunk. Any thought of the

analytics is imagine now you've got this huge

database in mailchimp or mailer light or wherever it

is. How easy is it to move

what you have already into Klaviyo? Is that a massive headache? Yeah, no,

I'm glad you asked that. So, because so many

businesses have made the move from Mailchimp over to Klaviyo, they've

actually built an API, which means it's incredibly slick

and quick. So you literally kind of copy and paste an API

code from Mailchimp into Klaviyo, and all of your customer data is pulled

over, which is brilliant. If there's another email

tool you're on which doesn't have that API, it's still not that painful.

You essentially need to export your contacts and plug them

into Klaviyo and export your unsubscribes just to make sure that

you're reaching out to people who are opted in and you're not reaching out to

those unsubscribes. But other than that,

it's not a big, painful process doing that migration. I've done it for

lots and lots of businesses over the last four years. And, yeah,

it's not painful at all. Thank you. I think that's really reassuring. So

I know that I'm trying to think of all the barriers people have when they're

thinking about. Yeah, I think, to be honest, I think

it's much easier to do that than to

try and create these journeys and experiences in one

of those other tools which aren't really built for ECOM. So I know that

Mailchimp are doing some work to trying to catch up with the things that Klaviyo

are doing. But Mailchimp is an email tool for

anybody. It's for service providers, it's for small

businesses, for anybody, whereas Klaviyo is built for e.com.

so it's got so much best practice and

clever, clever tools and things that you can do just

baked in. So I would say just the initial pain of migration,

which isn't big, is so much so worth it because you'll quickly see a return

on that project that makes sense. And is Klaviyo

the only mail platform that designed for e commerce? Because I think it's the

only one I've heard of. Oh, gosh. That's a good question.

There are, I mean, there are some bigger kind of

enterprise tools, which some more kind of established retailers use.

So there's one called Ometria, which has more kind of

CRM baked in. There's one called Emarsys, which I used in my

last in house role at Kurt Geiger.

I think it's probably the best for. If you're on

Shopify, you're probably best on Klaviyo. Yeah,

it just works so well with that platform. So. Yeah, that's really

helpful. I thought I'd ask then. You saved everyone going off and doing the research.

They've got the answer to that now. And before we wrap

up, Hannah, was there any other sort of things you hear from people

when they're considering Klaviyo that I haven't asked you about, that you wanted to

cover? No, I

don't think so. I think we've covered all

the key areas. I think you can get a

demo. You can also sign up on a free version. So you haven't got to

kind of commit and start paying anything and sign a contract or anything like

that. You can really have a good look around the tool and see that

it works for you before spending any money. So

that would be another thing to say. That's really helpful. Thank

you. My final question, Hannah, is what would your number

one piece of advice be regarding email marketing specifically for

e commerce business? Yeah. So I think what's really important

is to send regular emails. That sounds

very simple, but I think lots of businesses feel a bit

reticent that they think they're going to bombard their subscribers

or they're not finding the time to prioritize it. And I think that's a

huge mistake because hopefully they'll probably know that every time

you send an email, you do drive sales and your subscribers

have shared their data with you and they want to hear from you. And if

you email too infrequently, they'll almost kind of forget who you are or whether

they signed up with you on the first place. So please don't

hold back. Please do send frequently, whether that's once or

twice a week, and then also set up these flows so they're helping you

get more emails out too because you'll see the results

in terms of the revenue. That's brilliant advice, Hannah. Thank you so

much. Thank you for everything you've shared. So we're going to link to your website

and your socials and everywhere people can find you in the show notes for the

episode. So thank you again. Amazing. Thank you for having me. It was my

pleasure. Thank you so much for

listening. Right to the end of this episode, do remember that you can get the

full back catalogue and lots of free resources on my website,

vickiwineberg.com. please do remember to rate and review this

episode if you've enjoyed it and also share it with a friend who you think

might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.