In this conversation, Dr. David Chotka shares his personal journey of faith, emphasizing the importance of being true to oneself and understanding one's identity in Christ. He discusses his transition to founding Spirit-Equipped Ministries, focusing on prayer and spiritual disciplines. Dr. Chotka offers insights for new believers on engaging with the Bible and prayer, and he reflects on the legacy he wishes to leave through his ministry, aiming to equip others in their spiritual journeys.

Well, doctor, how you doing today?

Well, Doctor, I'm fine. So we can have a joke about Doctor Doctor if you want.

There you go, doctor, doctor. Exactly, we could. I love to ask my guests this question as we dive into getting know you a bit better. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received? I like that.

Be yourself. Because actually there's a funny, hilarious, Holy Spirit story attached to that if you would let me tell the story. I was a national director with a Dominational Renewal Society. And it was run on a shoestring, nobody had any money. So we're trying to do this renewal thing and we had to fly in from various parts of Canada. a Canadian. And of course in Canada, the airfares are much higher because the population is much lower and the geography is actually bigger than yours.

Sure, go ahead.

And so it was always expensive. they would always try and save. And so there were two of us from Western Canada who'd fly into the Toronto area. And we would get in the day before, take the red eye to save money. And we'd be absolutely, totally wiped out. we made this decision. We'd take the red eye and then we'd get a cheap hotel, split the cost between us to save money for the organization. And we'd go to the meeting the next day. And so there was this guy named Bob and there was me, David, and we were sleeping in these separate beds in this room.

And I remember the moment he woke up. I woke up in my mind, it was six in the morning and his it was five because there's a jet lag, right? And I put my feet beside the bed and he looks at me and he says this, be yourself, cause that's who you are. And that's who God wants you to be. So just be yourself. And I said, Bob.

In my mind, it's six in the morning. In your mind, it's five. I just woke up. Why are you talking to me like that? He said, David, last night you were lying on that bed. I was lying on this bed. And in the middle of the night, I heard a voice and the voice said, be yourself because that's who you are and that's who God wants you to be. So just be yourself. And after you said that in your sleep, you snored for the remainder of the night.

So, and he became the board chair and I was on that national board for five years and we met four times a year. It was three days every time we met. And so there was always a greeting every day and he would not say hello. He'd take my hand, he'd look at me and he'd say, be yourself. So actually I just reconnected with him. He's up in years now. He's retired. He's living in rural Saskatchewan. His name is Bob.

and we're great friends still, but that was a defining moment for me because all through my childhood, I had difficulty relaxing in who I was before the Lord. That was a major transformation for me.

That must be my theme for the day. I just talked to someone else who just said that about, you know, our identity. And when we understand that we, who God created us to be,

Yes.

we're much more more content in our identity. We're not trying to be something else. We're always not trying to strive for something else. So I like that of be yourself. Someone told me something like that too, be yourself because you can't be anybody else.

Well, guess so. The trouble is I didn't know who I was. And I was a first generation convert in my family and they didn't understand my faith. And I didn't know where I fit and what I was supposed to do. And I wanted to please my parents, but I didn't want to please my parents because what they said was different than what I was believing in. It was a real difficult struggle being a first generation believer in a non -Christian home. Although they were moral people. Do know what saying? They were, they were hardworking, honest people, you know, and I had two brothers. My two brothers didn't understand.

One got real mad at me and one went wild. And so I was alone with my brothers because what I believed and was, how do I say this? A rebuke of what they wanted to live, right? So that was exacerbated by that. And when the day was done, it wasn't until really, I don't know, 35 -ish, 40, somewhere in there, I started to say, this is me. And this is who God wants me to be. But the process started.

in my 20s with that guy. Apparently I preached in my sleep. So I had not a clue that I'd done that. the way that God speaks is he'll speak you to you whatever you need to hear. And in my case, the only way I could hear was for God to zap me in my sleep and then tell the guy in the next bed so he could remind me. Three days in a row, twice a day, times four, over five years.

That's amazing. I love how God does that. So you kind of started this, but kind of tell us about your journey and what led you to find the Spirit -equipped ministries.

Yes!

well, those are two separate questions. One is origin and the other is origin of the ministry. But I was pastor for, I'll take the second one before I take the first. I was a pastor for decades. I served many churches. The longest one I served was 10 years. The shortest was four and half. But regardless of that, I was always somebody who was leading churches and so on. And my district superintendent, like a bishop, I don't know what denomination you're in.

Okay.

But in mine, we have a press material structure in the local church and we have somebody who oversees us. He's a district superintendent. But the district superintendent is like a bishop. He's got teeth. And so if you're an idiot, he can take you out. If you are being maligned, he can fire the board. I've watched the DS fire a board of a church that was not treating their pastor right. So it's leadership by submission. And that's how the process works. anyway, I was in my last church that I served before I started this role.

And I had been traveling the earth trying to help the poor and the persecuted church all my days. In fact, my very first book is this one. It's called Power Praying. This is just going to be re -released in about a week. And it's a book on the Lord's Prayer. But when I got this thing done, it was the labor of years around what I was trying to do. But I had made a commitment to go to Uganda to help tribals from Uganda society that were ravaged by the madness of Joseph Kony and Edi Amin. And they were the first to receive this

There you go.

is a training tool for them. But regardless of that, what happened, so that actually there were a series of things, I'm Ukrainian by descent, and now you actually know that that means I'm not Russian. Now you know, all right, years ago, nobody got it. But so I wound up going to the Ukraine just when the wall fell, and I helped that society start to rebuild with my church and so on. And that was the beginning of my mission since, and from that point forward, every year,

My congregations would always do two events, a deeper life conference where we talk about how you can be, have a closer walk with God. And there would always be a missions conference where we would try and channel that energy to help the international church across the planet. And I got a real burden and a passion for my own people, ethically, and for any part of the world where the gospel was persecuted or attacked or worn down or whatever. Anyway, this also led to me pastoring and mentoring.

other pastors in the region who were rookies and getting started, et cetera, et I would do deeper. And then I wound up becoming the chair of the Alliance Pray Team. I'm no longer in that role, but I was in that role for quite a long time, for 20 years. And as a result of that, my congregation would always release me for X number of Sundays in a year if I found somebody to take the pulpit. And I would go and do a deeper life conference in some church somewhere, and I would want to give them resources. So I wound up developing these. So my DS looked at me and he said, David.

You're doing this all the time. If I could find a way to get you paid so that you do it all the time, would you do it all the time? And I didn't know if I could get paid. know, that was the struggle there was, let's see, churches are cheap. And if they can get something for free, they'll get something for free. And they don't believe in paying people. And even to get a pastor getting a wage that decent is hard, let alone a guest speaker. So good as his word, the DS approached people who were well -moneyed, found a way for me to get sponsorships.

he'd fundraised my wage for a year and a half. So I was not in a position where I had to worry about the money coming in. And I was very thankful for that. And as a result, I started to write. That was one of the things that I wanted to do. And so I did. then I got published by Whitaker House, a large publishing house in the States, it's American. And they published this one. This is the Healing Prayer Book, right? That's a 2023 book. And I'm...

There's a video series that has been developed, it's not out yet. In fact, in a few days, I'm going to be teaching at a Bible school and I'm going to give this book to those Bible college students. And this includes stories of miraculous healing. And they're all rooted in the things that I just told you. The trip to Uganda led to a Ugandan bishop coming to my church. The Ugandan bishop stood up and he was telling these amazing stories. Then he stopped. He had a download in the middle of preaching.

And my wife was miraculously healed of FSH musculatid dystrophy while he was standing in the pulpit. That story's in here. My daughter is handicapped and she has myotonic dystrophy and she wasn't healed. And so I live between these two realities. I live between the fact that miraculous healing and genetic transformation happened to my wife and my daughter did not receive that. And so I wanted to write about living in the middle.

That's the best way to describe it. I'm a supernaturalist who lives in reality. So listening to your podcast from last week, the thing I liked about your podcast from last week was that doctor lives in reality. That's the old, gotta manage the medical machine is what's that phrase. I'll not forget that phrase. So by the way, you did a really good job interviewing her, getting at her motivation and what she was trying to do. So I'll just give you the kudos while I'm being recorded here so your people can hear. You're a wonderful man.

I appreciate that.

At any rate, that's the origin story for the ministry, but the origin story for my life started when I was 16, and here's how it happened. I was in the drama guild, so I was reading all kinds of plays, and my two brothers and I were all, there were three brothers, and all of us were in the drama guild. We all liked drama. And by the way, that's how we lived. At any rate, there was a Mennonite kid who showed up at the high school.

And he had a black leather -down King James gold -edged Bible that he brought with him to school at lunchtime. And he pulled the thing out and it. And a bunch of students walked up and said, are you reading that because you've got to understand Shakespeare? Are you doing a play or something? And he said, no, no, I believe it. And they said, what do you believe? And he told them. And within two months, 60 people, six zero, said yes to the claims of Christ who'd come from non -Christian backgrounds. And I was watching them because a pile of them were in the drama guild.

And so I'd known them before and then I knew them after. Now there were significant changes that happened in a couple of them. Most of them didn't make lots of changes because their lives were moral before and now Jesus was the center. But in this case, there were some there who'd made miraculous shifts, big changes. And I couldn't figure this thing out, you know. And there came this defining moment where I thought I had to figure this thing out. So here's the reality. My parents ran a diner.

And there were five apartments attached to the diner. So we made our meat and potatoes from the rents. if the food was good, people would come and we'd make a little more. So that was our life. And of course, with apartments, people leave things when they move. And we had a lost and found. And in the lost and found, we'd keep things for 30 days or 60 days. And if they didn't claim it, we'd give it away or we'd take it or whatever. And there was an old cloth -bound King James Bible in that lost and found.

That was the only Bible in my home. So I took this thing because I'd been sitting there for six months. And I said to my parents, I'll come back to clean the restaurant in two hours because that's my time. And I went to read the thing and I did what any student of literature does. You look at the table of contents to find the contents. No, Bible doesn't work that way. But the first section I found there was a book called Luke and I found there was a book called Timothy and I'll tell you why I noticed.

I had a classmate named Luke and my brother's name is Timothy. And there was one Timothy and two Timothy. And I thought, isn't this neat? There's books in here named after my friends. So arbitrarily, I picked Luke and I started to read. I was absolutely fascinated with the healing accounts of Jesus. Nobody told me that Jesus healed people. I just didn't get this. Now here is the strange irony that started in the middle of that.

While I was reading about people getting well, I started to get a 24 -hour, 48 -hour bug. I began to break out into a sweat. I began to be mildly nauseous. I began to shake a little bit. In fact, I actually had to go over to the diner and tell my parents, I just can't clean up tonight. I'm not well. So the diner was next door to our home. So I went back home and I lay down in the bed and I was ticked. I'll tell you why was ticked. This is the first time in my life I've read in a holy book. People have told me it's a holy book, told me it's important.

And while I'm reading about this guy Jesus healing people, I'm getting sick. So I prayed my first prayer and I didn't know if I was talking to the air, talking to the ceiling or actually talking to the Divine Be. I had no clue. But I said, God, I don't get it. This is a mystery to me. And I used that phrase and I closed my eyes to try and beat the bug.

And in the eye of my imagination, suddenly there was these words, Timothy 3 .16, written across about a foot long and about three inches high. And then the Timothy 3 .16 started to get bigger and bigger and bigger. And it filled the eye of my imagination. I opened my eyes, I couldn't see it, closed my eyes and it was still there. And it got bigger and it just filled my screen. And I opened my eyes again and I thought, wait a minute, there's a book in there called Timothy, it's named after my brother.

So it was old King James, and this is really important. If it had been any other translation, it wouldn't have worked. But it was old King James, and I reached over and I grabbed it and I opened it up and I found 1 Timothy 3 .16. I had prayed this prayer. God, this is a mystery to me. And I opened it up and it said, without controversy, great is the mystery. And I sat back. I had never.

prayed a prayer before. And the exact word that I used in that prayer shows up inside that obscure scripture text. And if I had had a new NIV or if I had had a new American Standard or any other translation, the word mystery is no longer used. That was an accommodation to 16th century English. And so as I'm looking, so it just blew my mind. So, so began the search, Now, I was not yet a believer. I was a seeker.

And I found myself listening to my friends and here's what happened inside of me. I was troubled when they talk about Jesus in a meaningful way. And there was a girl named Joanne and she would sing about the blood of Jesus and it bothered me. It just bothered me. So I remember one time I was walking down the hall and this girl, Joanne, was at her locker getting her books out. She was in the drama guild too. Anyway, and she starts singing, I've been washed in the blood of the lamb and rage filled me.

to do something to shake her or stop her or push her up against the walker. I thought, and I stopped myself and I thought, David, Chodka, this girl's singing a song. She did not insult your mother. know, this is, you know, what is this crazy kind so, so anyway, in the course of time, that girl and two of her friends invited me to come in here, a British English Methodist evangelist. He was speaking in a house group.

And it was a room that went oversized living room that usually could seat about 20 and there were about 45 of us in that room. It was jam packed. And here's what happened. Now for the record, you need to know this. I could not say the name Jesus. I could say Christ. I could say God. I could not talk about the blood. But if I tried to say Jesus, I'd substitute the word Christ or God, but I couldn't say that name. And I walked into the room.

And I don't know, I can't remember if my emotional state was I'm gunning for bearer, I'm curious, or it was a combination of both, I'm not sure. So I walk in and this English guy, short little fellow, five foot two or three, looked at me and he said, you shall remain seated and you shall say nothing until I release you. In Jesus name, said. And I was in the chair and I couldn't move. I was utterly unable.

to move and this guy started to preach this sermon. And what I found out years later when I studied Methodism and the Methodist revival was that John Wesley had lay preacher outlines and this was one of them was called the marks of the new birth and there are nine separate distinct marks. And I know that now because I got it in those days it was cassette tapes. I got a cassette tape of that sermon being recorded and then I got my first Bible and I wrote down all these little marks after it was done. But he preached these nine marks from first John about

what it looks like when you have walked with God, and what does it feel like, and how do know you're saved, and all those kinds of things. Anyway, in the middle of this, he would rub his hands together. He was sweating profusely so that the sweat stain came down his arm, you know? And he would look at people, and his glasses would slip down his nose, and he'd gaze at you, and he'd say this, glory.

Have you got Jesus in your flesh? Glory. So he talked just like that. And he looked at that girl Joanne who was in the room and he asked her that question and she said, amen, yes I do. And I wanted to say it and I couldn't. And then at the end of his session he said, if you want Jesus in your flesh, come forward and I'll pray for you. I jumped, I leaped, I was at the front with him. And then he looked at me and he said, no, no, not now. When I finish me sermon. So there it was.

up at the front, waiting for this, and he prays for people, and every time he prays with people, there's a substantive change happens in them. In fact, with the first, I knew the girl that he prayed with first, her name was Heidi. She was a broken girl, everybody knew she was a broken girl. He put his hands on her and prayed, and the darkness in her turned to light, and this beautiful shining radiance filled her as he prayed. I've never seen anything like that.

Well, he comes to me last of all, and I thought he was gonna do what he'd done with the other 14, 15 people. And he sticks his finger in my belly and he says, get out. I out, what's this? And I looked down, his hand was shining. And around the center of my abdominal region was an inky cloudy black mass. And the mass was starting to move. said, out of that young man, out you go, out you go, out of that young man. And his finger got higher and higher and the cloud got higher and higher. And so it got to my chin and I watched this black thing fly out of my mouth.

and I was surrounded by a vision of radiant, magnificent light, then the light came inside of me, and then I could say Jesus' That's the origin story.

Can't hear you my friend, you're muted. Yeah.

that's an interesting story. I'm curious as you look back at that time in your life, because you're on this journey, really, I would say, as we would look at it by yourself, being led by the spirit to do this. It wasn't like your parents were guiding you through this.

Yeah.

No, they weren't. That's correct. Yeah.

So what lessons, I mean, because you're not the only person I'm sure who's picked up the Bible and tried to figure out what the Bible's saying. What insights do you have of somebody who's picking up the Word of God for the first time? And yeah.

Well, be honest for first thing, know, if you don't believe, say that. know, God's much, much happier if you're an honest pagan than if you're a lying believer. I just don't buy this false stuff. And actually the culture is rejecting the false stuff hand over fist, left, right and center. And if you are, if you're phony in any way, shape or form, it's not going to work. If you have an honest question, ask your honest question.

and come to the scripture with an open mind. if I was just starting from scratch like I did, by providence, I started with the gospel and I'm thankful for that. And because they're stories and I picked the one that's easiest to read. I picked Luke and it's full of stories. And if anybody's watched television over the last 50 years, you will have seen Linus stand up and tell Charlie Brown that the reason Christmas is around is because of Luke chapter two.

So stories like that are in Luke's gospel. In fact, it's more stories than anything else. In fact, Matthew, Mark, and Luke are stories with an application point. That's how it works. And when you get to John, well, John's a sermon, right? So what I did, I found myself reading Luke, and then I went to John because it was right after Luke, right? I was turning the page, and I tripped into this. I didn't even try to do this. It just turned out that I picked that thing.

because I had a buddy named Luke and I was reading Luke and then John and then Acts and so on. I didn't understand Paul at all. So I didn't get that. had to, I started going to Bible studies. And so what happened when I was the seeker was that I started to hang around and ask questions with people whose faith was real. And I had no time for somebody who was, you know, the imitation of Christian. had no time for that. And I didn't have time for church. Thank you very much. I had time for people who actually live what they believe.

So I would, if I were on the other side of this microphone listening to this story, I would look to see somebody who in the middle of trouble chooses the Lord and you know it costs them, hang around with that person, ask them questions, find out what they believe, why they believe it, and then start to read the scripture. And I would read the four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. I'd do that. I would actually start with Luke like I did. And then I go to John after that because Luke's the story.

John's a sermon.

So you wouldn't start with wouldn't start with Leviticus then

I would know. fact, the first time I read Leviticus, I got a headache. know, it's just, in fact, there's a really bad joke told by conservative Christians. How do you know you are a conservative Christian? You read Leviticus for a good time. So no, I wouldn't start there. In fact, I never really understood the sacrifice motifs there until I really understood that Jesus needed to die for my salvation.

But it's prefigured by what's in that book, Leviticus. And that book is actually a training manual for the priests and the Levites. That's why it's called Leviticus. That's what it's there for. And I mean, we don't practice many of the habits that are in there, although there are principles around holiness that are helpful to consider from the book. But I didn't get that for the longest time. And the first time I read it, I was surprised by some of the stories in there.

And then I really enjoyed reading Genesis and Exodus. And then I got to Leviticus and it was a bear. So actually somebody gave me really wise counsel about how to understand Judaism. If you want to understand what it is to be Jewish, get three different translations and read Deuteronomy in one sitting three days in a row. Three different translations. And you can feel what it is to be Jewish rising out of...

And because Deuteronomy is a summary of the journey and it's a compendium of all of Moses' teaching and the experiences from the perspective of him just about to be taken off into the presence because he's old and he blew it because he bluffed a miracle at the end of his days. Anyway, so that, but I wouldn't read the Old Testament before I read the New Testament 10 times. I would just get it under my belt. And then once I did that, I would get a simple book. so actually I'll show you a simple book.

Right exactly

One of your questions is who's your mentor, right? That's one of the things that you have. And so this guy here, Maxie Dunn, is my mentor. He's actually my co -writer now. But the reason he's my mentor is because I did not pray. And this book, The Workbook of Living Prayer, has sold like two million copies. It's his best book. I think it's his most groundbreaking work. And the reason why, I'll tell you why. It's easy. It's a seven day a week, 15 minute a day reflection in your recording thing.

And so he just told me that he's having difficulty thinking. So my wife and I are gonna make a trip. He's in Memphis. He's not too far from where you are. And you could get there in six or seven hours, I think, from where you live. But regardless of that, maybe a little more. But I'm actually about six or seven hours from Memphis so I can get there. And I wanna see him and his wife. They have been great friends and marvelous mentors. He's written five zero, 50 books.

And about 40 of the 50 have to do with developing your prayer life. And I became a prayer mobilizer in my denomination. And then I found myself meeting Maxi and he wrote the forward to my first book. So that's another story by itself, but this one that I gave to the Ugandans, his name is on the bottom, forward by Maxi Donah. So I mean, it's very, all my mentors, have three mentors. All of them were local church pastors who helped other pastors.

and traveled and wrote. And after a while, you start to get the signal in your brain. Maybe there's something going on here. Maybe I'm supposed to pay attention to that. And then when my district superintendent said you should do this, the light went on. Although it took a while because, you know, being in a local church, you have a congregation, you're involved in their lives. You have a regular routine. You have people that you work with. You don't have to raise the money.

And if you fundraise, it's not for you, it's for the organization so the organization can carry out its mandate. But when you're in a ministry like mine and you fundraise, you're fundraising for you to be able to make your wage. That's a very different kind of thing. I didn't even like my picture on the website when I was a pastor. I just didn't think that was a good idea, you know. Now, of course, I put my picture in everything. It bothers me. So you're a pastor too, so you know, right? Are you in a local church?

There you go.

No, I actually worked for a denomination.

Okay, there you go. So, and this what you do. You podcast for a living.

Podcast for a hobby. Yeah, for a living, I actually work with churches helping them discover their mission, stewardship, and human care and help them to kind of figure out how to align their ministry with those three areas of life.

Okay?

Okay, so you work for your denomination to troubleshoot and to improve the local church's ministry. Wow, that's what I did as a part -timer when I was a local church pastor. So I get it, this is important. The fact that you're in a denomination that actually wants to do that and pay somebody to get it done, let me salute your denomination. I'll just do that right now, okay? So there you go.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, we're part of the Luttrecht Missouri Senate.

really? Listen, I was in St. Catharines on Terror, Lutheran Church Missouri Synod had its Bible school there. That's right, and I had prayer partners who were Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. So yeah, the bishop's assistant and I prayed together all the time. So I married a Lutheran. So let me just say this, I was conflicted within myself if I could speak Lutheran. So there you go.

Yeah.

There you go.

No, so that's amazing. Have you been to the one in St. Catharines? Have you been? That's my hometown.

No, I have not. I've always wanted to go to hers. really, it's one building, right, or something.

Well, was back in the day, it's there was resurrection Lutheran at the bottom of the there was an escarpment and the university was on top and there was a church at the bottom of the escarpment. And so the students studied in seminary down there. And when Brock University expanded, then they built a seminary to be on site above the the apartment. But for years, it was housed in a local church. And that's where I when I was going to school there, it had just started. The seminary had just started. And so some of my best friends were Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod.

And it disturbed people to great effect because I wasn't Lutheran. In fact, I'll just tell you something. When I changed my last two churches, I would call up my buddy Derek because he was Lutheran and I was Christian missionary alliance. And there was absolutely no way in God's green earth he would ever become alliance. And there was no way in God's green earth that I married a Lutheran anyway. But we did not have, how do I say this, denominational bias in seeking the Lord together.

So we would seek the Lord together. We both love the scripture. We both love the Lord. And if I had to make a major decision, we would listen to the voice of God together. And then we would counsel each other. And actually, I made the decision to go to my second last church, Prescript Alliance, praying with him. And then I made the decision to go to Heritage Park Alliance by praying with him. And so, yeah, I've got buddies that now I'm on the Canadian side of the board. He's in the English district, if that means anything to you.

It does, yeah.

Yeah, okay, so that he's an assistant to the bishop in the English district and he travels across the United States and Canada. And we started off in the same denomination and both changed denominations and the process of discovery, we prayed with and for each other. And in the middle of that process, both he and I received our call to the ministry as we prayed together around a revival at Brock University when we got started. And so after I got saved, I wound up coming to Brock University.

And there were two days a week where we had Bible study on one and prayer meeting on the other. And Christians from all different denominational traditions would gather to help each other because it was a secular university context. And then Derek was part of that. I was part of that. He and his wife joined the Lutheran Church in the course of time. I stayed in my denomination, then changed later. But he prayed with me and I prayed with him around whether or not we were in the right stream.

where we would be able to thrive and grow and prosper and do kingdom work for the glory of God. And I remember the moment praying with him and he said, I need to be a Lutheran. And I said, I think you're right. So, and then, so I hope that encourages your listening. And actually somebody non Lutheran said that to a Lutheran, right? Then in the course of time I married a Lutheran.

There you go. We hope so.

There you go, that's right, exactly. So you're halfway there, there you go.

Well, I guess no, although we've come to the end of the time in terms of local church ministry. I mean, actually, so in my denomination, once you cease to be the lead pastor, you can't stay there. You have to move to a different, you sign a code of ethics that says you have to stay, move on, and that kind of thing. And so I'm worshiping, and there is no other one of my denomination in my town, so I'm worshiping in an independent church. And my membership is in my denominational church up the street kind of thing, about an hour down the road. And so that's where I am now.

That's a...

But if I listen, I am, I don't know if this makes any sense to your audience. I am an evangelical sacramental charismatic. And so if I was in the States, I'd probably be, I would probably be an evangelical Methodist. That's what I'd be. Although right now the Methodist Church is going through all kinds of It is, but we don't need to go there. We just need to look at what we do. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, that is true. No, no, probably not. I'm curious, as we talked a lot about prayer, how do you help people incorporate prayer into their daily lives, especially the Lord's Prayer? I think

As I talk to people, the thing I hear most often is, I don't really know how to pray. And so people tend not to.

Exactly. So let me, yes, let me just share something with you. I just, got a loop, but a little bit here so I can reach this. So, if you don't know how at all, you can get this book for under $10, the workbook of Living Prayer. And because it assumes you know nothing, you can quickly take that book and go to work and discover a prayer pattern by the time you're done. So,

Here's the answer, and this is my answer to your listeners. Jesus' prayer is a summary of all of His teaching collapsed into six lines.

Okay? Powerful dynamics are set into motion. You become joined to Jesus' own person. You pray led by Jesus' very own spirit. You discover that every time he prayed, he was aware he was Messiah on mission. And you participate in accomplishing his mission through your life by living out the Lord's Prayer line by line. So that's my new book coming out this week. At any rate...

And while he was there, he worked through all of his material and there was an hour left. I was the host pastor. Carl George was on the platform. And he had just been to Korea to the largest church in the history of worldwide Christianity. He had been to a church of 850 ,000 people who would all meet in small groups. And he numbered his church not by Sunday attendance, but by attendance in small groups.

And so the whole philosophy of that church was that you're going to target the community by inviting your friends to your small group. They get saved, they get discipled, they learn to give, they learn to serve, et cetera, inside that framework. So was large and small at the same time. Anyway, the fellow who was the founder of that church prayed three to five hours every day. And Carl George got a one hour visit with him. Now listen, my church in those days was about 800 people. And if you wanted to see me,

you'd call my secretary and it was a week. And by the way, if it was, you know, if it was not an emergency, maybe it's two weeks. If it was an emergency, I'd jump, right? And you know this because church life is like that all over the earth. How much time do you think you'd have to wait for a guy with a church of 850 ,000 to get an appointment? So he knows it's going to happen once. He prays. He says, God, what do you me to talk to him about? And he got this impression he should speak to him about his prayer life because this guy claimed to pray three to five hours every day.

So he sits across from this Korean pastor, looks at him and says, I understand you pray three to five hours every day. And the guy said, I do. He said, well, what do you pray? For three to five hours every day. And he said, it's very simple. I used the Lord's Prayer Pattern for the first three hours. And after that, I use other models. And then Carl George, and I was at a denominational conference.

there was about 120 of my peers sitting in my congregation. I was looking at all their eyes and heads and all of them were scratching their heads in the same way I was at that moment. We were all saying, what do do? Repeat it. And he said that. And then this guy looked at Carl George and said, Dr. George, don't you know? Don't you know what Jesus meant when he prayed the word father? And he said, well, I've never done the study.

I call him Father, but I've never studied what it meant. And I'm sitting next to him on the platform and I'm in full view of my peers. And I suddenly thought, I don't know what Father means. This revelation dawned on me. And I looked at Carl George and he said, well, to my great shame, said, listen, I pray it, but I have never done the study. And the Korean said, well, then how can you pray Father if you don't know what it means?

That means you can't obey Jesus because he said, when you pray, pray this way, our Father. And you don't know what that means. And it was like a fell blow in my chest, right? And then he went to the next word. Well, what about heaven, Dr. George? Have you ever studied heaven? Carl George scratched his head. He was three or four weeks out from this appointment when he was having this chat with us. And then he said, well, I believe in heaven. I've just never studied it. He said, well, then how can you pray the Lord's Prayer? Because Jesus said, pray this way. didn't say, pray other.

ways. He said, when you pray, pray Father, pray heaven. You don't know what father means, you know what heaven means. How could you pray? So you can see where this is going, right? The only consolation I had was I'd studied kingdom. And so I had a pretty good thumbnail sketch of kingdom, but I didn't know prayer. So I made a commitment to the Lord. And here was my commitment. Okay, Lord, I'm reading through Philippians. I'm going to finish that. And when I get done with that,

I am going to get myself a bunch of notebooks. I'm going to get a big three ring binder. I'm going to put the notebooks in the binder. I'm going to pick the Gospel of Matthew and I'm going to circle every time one of the key words of the Lord's Prayer shows up in the Gospel of Matthew in Jesus' teaching. And then I am going to write one, I got one book for Father, one book for Heaven, one book for Name, one book for Kingdom, one book for Will, all the way through all the key words and phrases of Lord's Prayer.

And then I started to study the word Father. And here's what I discovered. No one, zero, no one in Hebrew history ever once prayed the prayer like Jesus did. No one. He was the first in human history to do that. And then I discovered in the Old Testament there were seven scriptures

about someone born from the line of David who would call.

And when he did, he was making the claim that he was the Messiah. And the marks of Messiah would include the following things. would raise the righteous dead, create an army, push off all the invaders, restore the land, be descended from the line of David, walk in the power of the spirit, have wisdom and guidance, and he would usher in the end of time after all of the land and the people were regathered as a resurrected army. Now listen, I don't know about you.

But I've never been able to do any one of those. And so when she and every single prayer that's recorded of Jesus, with the exception of him on the cross, when he says, my God, my God, and that, by the way, he's quoting Psalm 22 there. Every single prayer of Jesus starts with one of three appellations. Father, my father, holy father. That's it. That means every single time he prayed, he was aware.

you

He was Messiah. He was aware he would restore the land. He was aware he would usher in the kingdom. It was a mind blower. mean, an absolute, because he said, when you pray, you say, our father, well, I'm not the Messiah. I had moments of delusions of grandeur where I think I can get the dog to obey me when I'm taking it for a walk. And then it doesn't obey. Then I realized, I'm not the Messiah. So what am I doing? Praying that prayer.

doing is I'm joining myself as a joint heir with Jesus to the messianic prerogative that Jesus had with his prayer life to be able to call God Father because I'm merged together with him. And that means I receive his mission and I receive his prayer life as the Spirit prays through me.

Now what I just told you in a few minutes took me about six months to understand as I looked at the Old Testament background to these. And here's what I realized. I could not stop at Matthew. I had to read Mark and Luke and John and Acts and Romans. And here's what I discovered. That prayer was a magnificent summary of everything that Jesus ever taught collapsed into six lines.

Yep.

It was meant to be used as a memory device. And it was a memory device to attach you to all the teaching of Jesus so that you would think God's thoughts after him as you prayed this. So if I was saying to someone who has prayed that prayer for years, and in a Lutheran church, you would say it as part of the liturgy, right? In a Baptist church, you'd say it to close the prayer meeting at the end of the day, right?

And sometimes at a board meeting, you'd use the Lord's Prayer at the close of your board meeting because the elders wanted to close the prayer meeting and go home. But there's no focused thinking about what that prayer actually means. So I have learned, it took me, by the way, it took me 12 years of journaling to get through all of the key words of that magnificent prayer. And that's what prompted the writing in the book that I called Power Praying. It's now being re -released as Living of the Lord's Prayer line by line.

I would start with Maxi Donovan's workbook, A Living Prayer, because it's basic discipline. It teaches you to be consistent around methods and forms of prayer until you develop your own. And it will go right from that to my book, Living Out the Lord's Prayer, line by line. And I would give myself lots of time to learn. So yeah, and actually the habit of prayer is more important than the time you spend. So if, so I remember one time I just told a bud,

That's great.

He was having trouble with his prayer life. Actually, you know what happened? He read about Martin Luther. And Martin Luther would spend two hours a day in prayer when he wasn't busy. And when he got really busy, he'd spend three. And so what my friend didn't realize was Luther had been a monk and he married Katerita Von Bora, who had been a nun. And they used to pray five times a day all the time anyway, before they married. So they already knew they had a discipline of prayer before they met each other.

And so when they married, they married together and they had the monastic practice in common. The only thing that was different was now they were husband and wife. And so he could shape his devotional life around his family with the disciplines he had learned in the monastery. Well, my buddy didn't get that. here's what happened. This is really funny. He got up at five in the morning because he wanted to pray three hours a day so he could have such a significant influence like Martin Luther did on the transformation.

And he got up at five and he opened his Bible and he started to pray for everybody he knew. And he kept praying and he kept praying and he kept praying. And when it was all done, he prayed seven minutes. He labored through the remainder of those three hours and he kept it up for three days and he gave up. And he saw that I was praying at that point about half an hour to 45 minutes a day. He said, how do you do that? I said, well, you need to have it. And I looked at him and I said, can you give God five minutes a day?

He said, five minutes, is that enough? I said, well, what are you giving now? He said, nothing. I said, then five minutes is better than nothing. You can wolf a sandwich in five minutes and live. You got to feed your spirit. And so I said, why don't you make me this promise? Pick the best time when your mind is clear, where you have five minutes that are not going to be interrupted and make sure that you have up to half an hour of bendable time. He said, half an hour, that's not going to happen. said, give me five minutes.

Will you give God five minutes a day for the next two months? He looked at me and he said, I can always give God five minutes. I said, okay. Now get yourself a devotional book, get yourself a book of the Bible, get yourself a list. Write down the things that are important to you. Read scripture, read the devotional book, pray the list five minutes a day. Now what's your best time? And he said, I'm most awake in the morning. I said, okay. What time do you want to pray? He said seven o 'clock till seven five. And I'm clear till seven 30. I said, okay.

And he did that and he kept it up for a week and a half until five minutes wasn't enough. And then sometimes he prayed 10 minutes and sometimes he prayed 15. And sometimes life would happen and he could only give God five, but he always prayed the five. The habit was more important than the content because the significance of making sure that you are present to the Lord's Word and His Spirit.

It is a helpful tip.

and a consistent regular basis at the same time of the day is going to create the habit that causes you to yearn to learn and to pray at the same time each day. Is that a helpful tip?

I could talk to you all day about this, but I do want to ask you this because I think it's important. What's my favorite question for all my guests, you know, this is my podcast before. As you think about your life, what do you want your legacy to be?

I'm creating it right now. I want my dying to be far more powerful than my living ever was. And by the way, when Jesus was alive, he reached thousands. After Jesus died and rose again, he's reached billions. When the apostle was alive, he planted X number of congregations and had influence on thousands. And now he has led billions to the Lord. So I want actually the very thing that I'm doing, Spirit Equipped Ministries.

is designed to create trajectories of learning around spiritual disciplines. And so far I have taught on, I've created a book on hearing God's voice. Hey, are there? It's me, God. And I have methods in here where I teach you 25 different ways to hear how God speaks. So I want people to discover they can hear that God is talking. I have written a book on healing prayer and this is designed to be a training tool so that churches

will not be idiots when they're praying with people who are wounded. There's all kinds of weirdo stuff out there that's just not rooted in reality. And I wanted to give methods and approaches that are number one, supernaturalist, but number two, are filled with common sense. Like your speaker last week, by the way. I really enjoyed that presentation. So this book contains stories of miraculous healing. This book contains stories where the prayer went unanswered.

We described five different pathways to healing. I want people to work through it with a team of people to learn so that they can do this. And so also with my Lord's Prayer Room. I want my legacy to be that people are gonna learn because there's a resource available for them that makes it possible for them to have an on -ramp into all the spiritual disciplines that I learned the hard way by tripping over my own shoelaces and making some ditzy, stupid mistake. I want them to get to the place where it's gonna succeed. So that's why I'm doing what I'm doing.

I appreciate that. So where can people find you, Doc, and learn more about you, find your books, your resources, your spiritual disciplines?

Yep. Easiest way is go to my website, www .spiritequip .com. And spirit is spelled like Holy Spirit and equip is spelled like equipment. Put those two words together, mash them together, spiritequip .com. And you will find links to all my social media there and you'll find links to all my product pages and the publishers that I use, et cetera, et cetera. The books are there. And by the way, I speak in churches. In fact, I'm going to be doing an event.

at the end of the month in a Bible school, and I'm going to be doing another event after that with a bunch of Baptist churches in Edmonton. And then I'm going to do an event in Indiana, and I'm going to do an event in, actually, this is exciting. Somebody has paid for this book, this book, Parpring, Now Living with the Lord's Prayer, to be translated into Vietnamese. I am going to Vietnam in October, and I am going to be speaking to 3 ,000 pastors and giving this resource to them.

And so we're developing an international travel fund so that people can contribute to that. So that the production of translation costs and the production costs and the printing costs and sometimes me traveling together with a companion, because traveling alone sets you up for trouble. A traveling companion and me going to wherever and helping the persecuted and the poor church to be able to receive the spiritual disciplines that they can afford to come to the United States or Canada to learn. So if you go to www .spiritequip .com, there's a U .S. donor button.

There's a Canadian donor button. There's an Australian donor button. And you can come in and help us out and you can get a hold of my products and services. And you can invite me to your church for an event or to your denomination event. Although I think Missouri Synod likes its own tribe. I think that's... Yes, you do. You like your own tribe. So there you go.

We do like our own tribe, Well David, thanks so much for what you do and blessings on your book and your travel as you continue to teach people about the power of God's Word and the power of the Lord's Prayer. This was a great conversation to kind of help people unpack that there's so much more than we

Realize in that prayer and how it really does summarize all the teachings of Jesus and that one beautiful prayer gave us to pray daily for a reason. So thank you for what you shared.

You're welcome and God's peace be with you and I hope you have a great next series of podcasts. I'm looking forward to listening to several.

Thank you, David.