Jo and Emily are both away, so we’re revisiting two recent conversations that sit neatly together: one about the challenge of making original animated IP outside the Hollywood system, and one about the new frontier of creator-led cinema distribution.

First up is Matthieu Zeller, president and CEO of Belgium's nWave Studios and the team behind the Chicken Hare franchise — a case study in how a European studio can build original animated IP on a fraction of a US studio budget, through loyal distribution partners and a fully integrated model that keeps creative and commercial control under one roof. Then Caspar Nadaud of Piece of Magic Entertainment on what the Amazing Digital Circus and Iron Lung have revealed about cinema's new relationship with creator fandoms — and why the old gatekeeper model has given way to something far more collaborative and equal.

Both conversations are worth hearing in full — links to the original episodes are in the show notes.

Chickenhare

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/kids-media-club-podcast/id1573404550?i=1000777023112

Creator Cinema

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/kids-media-club-podcast/id1573404550?i=1000775115916

Foreign.

Hi there.

Andy Williams here from the Kids Media Club podcast.

Now, both Joe and Emily are away this week, so we thought it would be a fantastic opportunity to rewind and take another look at two recent episodes, both of which focus on film and cinema distribution.

One of those conversations was with Matthew Zeller, who is the president and CEO of N Wave Studios based in Belgium.

And we spoke to him about his animated movie Chicken Hair and the Hamster of Darkness and really dug into just what it takes for a European studio to create an animated IP that can rival the best of what's coming out of Hollywood.

And the other chat was with Casper Nadu, who is the founder of Piece of Magic Entertainment, and they handled the cinema distribution for the amazing digital Circuses last episode, which turned in to a cinema event as well.

We also spoke to Casper about the rise of the creator, filmmaker and the way that creators from social media and YouTube are joining forces with cinema distributors to really shake up the way films are marketed and distributed.

Have a listen or watch if you follow us on YouTube and please let us know what you think.

And yeah, take a look.

One of my little pet pieces of content in the world is Chicken Hair and the Hamster of Darkness, the movie.

And I have gone.

Actually I haven't raised it on the podcast in a while because it's from a few years ago, but I'm so pleased to have reason to raise it again because Matthew Zeller from Nwave, the director of Chicken Hair, has joined us.

Hello, nice to meet you all.

Great to have you.

Matthew, would you mind introducing yourself for our audience, please?

So I'm Matthieu Zelair.

So I'm the president and CEO of NYF Studios based in Belgium.

And so yeah, we have produced Chicken Hair and the Hamster of Darkness, but also Chicken Secret of the Ground Oak, that is the sequel of it.

And yeah, I've been a writer also on this one, on this new one.

So, yeah, very happy.

You like it.

Yes.

Chicken Hair and the.

The Secret of the Groundhog is the newest installment of the Chicken Hair franchise that's hitting cinemas this month.

Chicken Hair and Hamster Darkness, like, I'm just happy to tee it up for you is like, it's a great movie.

It released in cinemas, certain markets, it hit Netflix.

Right.

So my, you know, that's where a lot of my obsession comes from because the streaming numbers it did was pretty, was pretty strong and it's a, it's a great movie.

It's kind of, I suppose, a little bit based maybe around the Indiana and Temple of Doom.

You know, Chicken Hare is slightly unlikely hero who finds himself in doing these great adventurous quests and learns a lot about himself in the meantime.

And yeah, a really, really charming movie and great to see the sequels coming out.

Now.

What do you think, Matthew?

Is that a good pitch for it or how would you pitch it?

Yeah, well, what is very interesting about Chicken Hare and the absolute darkness and I think about the hero and the world is that it's a very original story.

So it has never been seen a chicken and hare mix hybrid animal.

And I think the whole movie is all about creating a world that is very imaginary and never seen before.

And in a world where you have the sequel.

Sequel.

Sequel of the sequel of those big franchises that we all love and we all love going to theaters to see those new Toy Story 5 or those kind of things.

We love it, but it's good from time to time.

And that's what we are trying to do at Nwave to bring new heroes and new stories and your world and new original stories to life.

Is that risky at the moment, Matthew?

Because.

Yeah, yeah, it's very risky.

Obviously when you are discussing with the finances, they are all telling you, okay, well, we bet on IPs.

No, they are not betting on.

They are not betting at all.

They are just risk averse and they are looking for IPs and they prefer to invest a lot of money on a bad script based on an old IP that nobody knows anymore, rather than fresh, new, good original stories.

That's the reality of the market.

Yeah, that's true.

So my job, and I love to tell that my job is not.

I'm not a producer.

Well, I am producer, but my job is to sell new stories and to convince people to, to take the risk, to finance and to bet on original stories, original IP that could become future big IPs hopefully.

Because any IP that exists has been created and is coming from somewhere in a way from an artist, from talent.

And so yeah, that's not easy.

That's risk.

Yeah.

And.

And how did you, how did you kind of navigate that?

Because compared to the US the budget for, for your movie is, is kind of a.

It's a fraction of what the US studios have.

But within the context of European animation production, you went for quite an ambitious budget and production really.

So how did you, how did you kind of bring on the partners and kind of.

And build that funding to get.

Well, we are taking risks.

So we have decided to be fully integrated.

So we do the financing, we develop the project, we develop we develop everything under the same roof.

We develop everything by ourselves.

We do take the risk of the financing, we do finance and we do distribute well, we do sell our projects.

So we don't have any sales agent.

We are our own sales agent.

And because of the consistency of the quality of our movies, because we are, because they trust our ability to craft these good movies at a reasonable price point but a very high standard of quality, so they trust us.

And so in many territories I have output deals with distributors that are, that are just buying our movies based on trust we built over the years.

So, so yeah, so basically I'm building my financing through our loyal distributors and, and loyal partners, mainly in Europe and then the US and the rest of the world is a cherry on the cake, basically.

So I take my risk as a producer based on the fact that I can cover the making of the movie by the financing I have in Europe and I can potentially pay myself and earn a little bit of money if the movie has a worldwide success.

How does the streaming come into that equation then as well?

Because obviously this is one of the things that caught my eye about Chicken hair.

I saw the, the rewatch value.

That's the thing, what streaming, streaming does, right?

Streaming is the datification of the DVD player.

Before, you know, you know, if you sold the DVD now, you can tell how many times the DVD is being watched and which is the real thing that unlocks the franchise potential.

Right.

Like is that you know that audiences are coming back to the movie.

How do you factor that into your business strategy and what you're thinking about the ip?

It's very difficult.

Well, I factored that taking it's unpredictable.

So Netflix bought us two movies and they stopped buying movies.

So I can't rely on the streaming services to be a loyal partner or buyer.

If I do a good movie, they will buy the movie for sure because they will want to have it on their services.

But it's not something that, that is central in my strategy.

I can't, I just can't make it central.

But at the end of the day, when you think about the territories, it depends on the territories.

When, when you look at, at the US for example, they don't have middle range, mid range distribution strategy.

So the problem is you don't have that mid range strategy.

So the only strategy for my movies to go streaming because honestly nobody will take the risk to spend $20 million in P& as on my movies.

And to be honest, I don't want to be too rude but it's very difficult for the Hollywood people to understand that $20 million budget movie.

Can do.

The best a good result.

They think, okay, that's not enough.

It's impossible to do a good movie below 60, 70, 80.

It's all about spending money.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I think there's definitely that aspect where they see the price tag and they kind of make judgment values on, on that price tag.

What is, are Sony Pictures are kind of, are they still involved?

You were saying that they originally optioned it.

Are they production partners or distribution partners?

The first one.

Well, they are a passive co production partner to be honest, because they owned the right at the very beginning.

So they still have a short, a small part of it.

There have been production, well distribution partners on the first one.

So they released the movie in France and Italy on the second one.

They were not distribution partners, but yeah, well we have a very good relationship with, with them and they are smart enough to understand that beyond their own productions there is room for those kind of, I would say mid range budget movies that are very profitable for, for them also.

So next up is our chat with Casper Nadu from Piece of Magic Entertainment.

You mentioned about the creator led phenomenon of the amazing digital circus and Iron Lung.

Do you think those are anomalies or do you think we're at a point where they're, where we're seeing a real shift in the relationship between cinemas and a new kind of trend that's moving forward that's more of a creator led IP than the traditional studios.

Well, I would say that hopefully this is a starting point of this generation of YouTube content creators who find their way to the cinema.

And I think that the examples that you just mentioned, let's of course talk also about obsessions and backbones.

Those are prime examples of how success can look like.

And it makes sense that those people that have used YouTube as a first platform to push out their content and to build audiences that at a certain moment the cinema is sort of the next step.

Now there's still a lot of learnings here and it's very important to say that a very big YouTube following does absolutely not mean that it is box office success.

But I'm sure there's going to be a trend.

I mean everyone is talking about it, the industry.

I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's A hot topic at the moment, of course, but it's a logical path, I would say, whereby the cinema, the theatrical, becomes an additional outlet.

It will not, you know, you know, take it over, but it's just an additional outlet in their ecosystem.

Yeah, yeah.

What about.

So why do you think cinema works for this as a creator outlet?

You know what I mean?

Because we've seen creators go to streaming, like, you know, create streaming shows and stuff like that.

But I'd love to know what you think about why cinema seems to really be working on this.

Well, I think the answer would be, and that would not only be for this type of content, but for all content, is that obviously, you know, it's.

Cinema creates something unique and a unique experience.

I'm in this business because that's what I believe in.

That's my passion.

So you know that.

But that's, I think, really true.

What's interesting here is that the Amazing Digital Circus, for example, all those views are digital natives.

So we all in this call are sort of adapters.

But they, you know, they grew up with it, but they do absolutely see the value of coming together in a cinema.

It's something that they, you know, that they can't experience at home.

And this is also something that I find fascinating in the comments for the Amazing Digital Circuit, but also for Iron Long how for a lot of people it is.

It's been a very long time or even the first time that people go to the cinema.

And it is because, you know, I think they have this sense of exclusivity, going there to see something what others don't see.

And I think that the content creators are seeing the cinema also a platform where they can offer their fan base something unique.

With the Amazing Digital Circus, it was the last episode and the window was actually very short, only two weeks before it went on YouTube, but still they were able to build momentum and to create sort of a formal moment for that fan base.

And I think with those elements, all those elements together, the proposition of cinema is clearly unique.

That FOMO moment is interesting, isn't it?

Because it feels to me like the FOMO moment is something that they really needed to experience at that time.

It was a timing thing, this was the last episode.

But it doesn't necessarily mean that they won't then go and watch it again on YouTube.

I mean, YouTube being the original home and the place where that fandom grew and was nurtured.

I'm interested to hear from you as someone who's been doing this for 10 years, it used to be that the factors that drove success in cinemas were kind of star power and marketing campaign.

Neither Ian Long nor Amazing Digital Circus had the traditional factors.

You know, they had fandom and they had groups that really, really wanted to experience this together.

How have you seen that shift in your time as a piece of magic?

For sure, a very interesting development and I would like to say one thing is that it needs to be said, which is very interesting, is that the ninth episode of the series, which we put into cinemas two weeks after it is about the amazing digital circus two weeks after on YouTube.

And actually it was the best viewed episodes in history.

So it shows simply how the one enforced the other.

So I think that is a really interesting thing.

I mean, clearly you have an eye for this in that you worked with Markiplier and Iron Long and Amazing Digital Circus.

One of the interesting things you said in the prep call for this was we were talking about how theatrical distribution was to a large extent locked out.

Creators weren't.

They didn't get access to that previously and now this seemingly has opened up.

But it does necessitate much more of a collaborative partnership between people like you and the creators.

Whereas it used to be much more of a controlling kind of gatekeeper type relationship.

How has it changed how you approach it now?

I think here we have.

We really.

Well, first of all, it's a partnership.

So it's not that I acquire the rights, it's a partnership.

I think that's really important to say.

So those creators, they have.

How they understand the audiences is unique.

And it would be wrong for us to have a strong opinion on that.

Of course, we have an opinion when it comes to how distribution works and how the theatrical ecosystem works.

But they have a really good understanding of the audiences and what they need and how to communicate with those audiences.

So what I think is going to happen more and more, and that's what happened also with Iron Long and the Amazing Digital Circus, is that we really are in constant conversation and they are part of the decision making.

So they really.

That balance.

It's a very equal collaboration, to be very honest.

And because they are not only the creators, but also they are the people that own that audience and they build that.

So you need to respect that.

I think that's maybe a little bit different with the more conventional, traditional model where you have a creator, the content is then bought by a distributor or by a studio, and then the life after is executed by.

By those parties.

Here it's a full dialogue and I think there's a much More equal relationship there and we learn from them.

I mean, how often is this.

So that we couldn't really understand how that audience was behaving, especially if you monitor pre sales, for example.

It was really interesting to see how that went.

And the learnings from those creators was very valuable for us to.

To know how to adjust our campaign.

So again, they are very important in the whole process.

And we are sort of at a. I would say, in.

In how we work with them.

We listen to them and we are partners.

It's not that we just take their content and release it.

That's.

That's great because I. I really remember when you had kind of the new run of Star wars movies or you had kind of the Marvel movies where the studio's behavior would be to be slightly terrified of the original fan base of those movies or that comic.

And it was all about managing that fan base.

Whereas I think you're flipping it on its head to really engage with that fan base and have that kind of open dialogue and make them kind of partners effectively in the marketing of the movie and the success of it.

Yeah.

I mean, the content creators are.

And that's a really important point because they are such an important element within the success the fan base are making.

Also the success.

I mean, they are mobilizing.

They are mobilizing everyone to do this.

They are posting.

They are saying, you have to see this.

But interesting with Iron Long, for example, is that during the process of making the film, actually the fan base could actually experience it.

And interestingly enough, he was posting about it.

But also all the people that worked on the film were allowed to post about it.

I'm sure with many films, you know, all the NDAs that are floating around, that you cannot show any film.

Here it is the opposite, actually.

No, we want to show you how we create this.

And that builds such a dedication.

Yeah.

Participation of the audience.

They feel like they're part of it.

Yeah.

Buy it from the hagga.

Yeah.

And that is not something that.

That's.

That comes naturally to those creators because again, the fan base is what makes them.

So it comes really natural to them to share that.

And.

Well, I believe that the engagement of that fan base is only bigger because of it.

Hope you enjoyed those clips from those two chats.

If you'd like to have a listen or watch the full episodes, then you can find both of them on our podcast pages.

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We'll put some reference in the notes below.

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