Ep. 284: Chef AJ is Thriving in the Face of Cancer

Episode 284 • 16th January 2025 • PLANTSTRONG Podcast • Rip Esselstyn

Reb Esselstyn: 00:00:00

Reb Esselstyn.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:00:01

And you're listening to the Plan Strong podcast.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:00:05

As many of you are aware, our beloved Chef AJ announced in November that she had been diagnosed with lung cancer.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:00:14

Shortly after that diagnosis, AJ agreed to come on and chat with me, even though there were still many unknowns.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:00:23

Her vulnerability and resilience is a gift for all of us, and I'll have that conversation with Chef AJ right after this.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:02:28

It's a call no one wants to get, and it's a diagnosis that no one wants to hear.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:02:37

Stage 3 lung cancer.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:02:40

In November of: 2024

Reb Esselstyn: 00:02:50

It was a shocking diagnosis, especially for someone who has been such a plant based advocate for almost 50 years.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:03:00

And at first, as you can imagine, AJ was scared to make the announcement for fear of all the backlash that she was sure to receive about being so healthy.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:03:12

How can a healthy person get so sick?

Reb Esselstyn: 00:03:17

Well, instead of hiding, Chef AJ has turned her news into a new personal mission to help others with her YouTube channel, where she's posting daily interviews with doctors and survivors on thriving in the face of cancer.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:03:34

She's facing this journey with bravery, action, and her trademark sense of humor.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:03:40

And I love her for it.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:03:42

We recorded this conversation before the holidays, so I would encourage you to follow her social channels for up to the minute news.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:03:50

But I wanted to make sure you hear it so you too can shower our beloved AJ with the support that she needs at this time.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:04:02

Chef aj, welcome.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:04:05

Welcome back to another episode of the plantstrong podcast.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:04:09

It's so fantastic to see you, to be with you.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:04:13

And it's so weird having you be on the podcast without having your Chef aj, you know, apron on and, and making something for us.

Chef AJ: 00:04:24

Yeah, absolutely.

Chef AJ: 00:04:25

Well, I'm, I, I'm a person too.

Chef AJ: 00:04:27

I'm not just a chef.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:04:30

Incredible.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:04:30

I, I had no idea.

Chef AJ: 00:04:32

Yeah.

Chef AJ: 00:04:33

But I do, I do.

Chef AJ: 00:04:34

I feel most at home, though, when I'm cooking, though.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:04:36

Yeah.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:04:36

Yeah.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:04:37

Well, I just want to say you look fabulous.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:04:41

You look fabulous.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:04:42

And what is with that shirt?

Reb Esselstyn: 00:04:44

It's so wild.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:04:45

It's got holes everywhere.

Chef AJ: 00:04:46

I, you know, this is what I had.

Chef AJ: 00:04:48

I mean, I was gonna wear my kale shirt, you know, but it's just, I know.

Chef AJ: 00:04:52

I love purple.

Chef AJ: 00:04:53

It's my power color.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:04:54

Yeah.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:04:54

Yeah.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:04:55

Well, it works.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:04:55

Especially with that hair.

Chef AJ: 00:04:57

Yeah, well, the hair to match the match the shirt.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:05:00

I love it.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:05:01

Well, I, so I, I, I want to say thank you for coming on and I watched your Chef AJ Live, where you announced everybody that you had you've been diagnosed with lung cancer and watched every second of it.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:05:23

And I just want to say that I was so incredibly moved by your courage, by your openness, your willingness to talk about something so incredibly personal.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:05:36

And then also, I think that Matt Lederman did a wonderful job also kind of helping you talk about it, moderate the conversation, so to speak.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:05:49

And, and it's, it's obviously something, it's a topic.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:05:54

That's it.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:05:54

It's uncomfortable to talk about.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:05:57

But I, I immediately reached out to you to see if you'd be willing to come on and talk about it because it's life, right?

Reb Esselstyn: 00:06:06

And life is, it's messy.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:06:10

And this is just kind of at this point, I think it's the hand that you were dealt and I love the fact that you're dealing with it the best that you possibly can.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:06:19

And so I would just, you know, I have no set agenda here, really.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:06:23

I just want to talk to you and see, listen, you know how near and dear to me and the Esselstyn family you are.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:06:34

And I would just better like to better understand where you are and what we can do to support you.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:06:41

Not only myself and the family, but also the plant strong family.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:06:44

That's.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:06:45

That's listening.

Chef AJ: 00:06:46

Oh, my God, thank you so much.

Chef AJ: 00:06:47

I really appreciate that.

Chef AJ: 00:06:48

And you know, your mom was one of the first few people I told when I told only literally a handful of people, friends and family.

Chef AJ: 00:06:55

And she's just been so incredibly supportive, calling me, texting me, emailing me, you know, being my greatest cheerleader.

Chef AJ: 00:07:01

So I really appreciate that about her and your family.

Chef AJ: 00:07:05

So, you know, it's.

Chef AJ: 00:07:08

It was really hard to come out.

Chef AJ: 00:07:10

I mean, it's so funny, you know, be easier to come out for other things, I think, than that because I was given a lot of advice, advice that I shouldn't do it because it could hurt the plant based movement.

Chef AJ: 00:07:19

And you know, I respect that very much because as somebody who's been an ethical vegan almost 50 years, I didn't want to come out with this announcement that this OG vegan now has cancer and have other people say, well, see, the vegan diet doesn't work.

Chef AJ: 00:07:31

But we know that there are other reasons people get cancer than just diet.

Chef AJ: 00:07:36

And I'm glad I did it because I got to tell you, as somebody who's had anxiety my whole life, just such a tremendous boulder was lifted off my chest just to be able to share it.

Chef AJ: 00:07:48

And I am hearing rip.

Chef AJ: 00:07:49

I am hearing from so many people, not just in the plant based world, but in the world in general that not only have cancer or survive cancer, but long term survivors, people with lung cancer that have survived 10 and 17 years.

Chef AJ: 00:08:02

And I'm going to actually change the focus of my work now to really dealing with thriving in the face of cancer because I did not have hope for a very long time because I could not get into to any of the services that one normally gets when they're diagnosed with cancer because it took a year and a half to get an oncologist.

Chef AJ: 00:08:19

But there is support out there and there is hope.

Chef AJ: 00:08:23

And I don't want people to go through what I did, not having any when, when there is some.

Chef AJ: 00:08:27

And I'm going to be featuring those kind of people.

Chef AJ: 00:08:29

But you know, it's funny because, you know, you always sell shirts that, you know, you and I have joke about kale.

Chef AJ: 00:08:36

And you know, and you know, I do a lot of standup comedy and that's my, that's my therapy.

Chef AJ: 00:08:40

And I, one of the jokes I was recently coming up with is like, you know, hey, you know, if I knew I was gonna get cancer, I wouldn't have eaten so much kale.

Chef AJ: 00:08:48

You know, of course that's a joke because you can't just throw kale at everything.

Chef AJ: 00:08:53

Although kale is extremely delicious and nutritious.

Chef AJ: 00:08:56

But I'm hearing from a lot of people, RIP in the plant based world that, and I can't mention their names because they don't want to come out and that's their decision.

Chef AJ: 00:09:03

I think people should decide to do what's best for them because they're also afraid.

Chef AJ: 00:09:07

Like, well, you know, what are the people going to think if.

Chef AJ: 00:09:10

If me as this plant based influencer or author now tells people.

Chef AJ: 00:09:15

And it's amazing how many people other than me in the plant based world either have cancer or have had cancer and they're keeping silent about it.

Chef AJ: 00:09:22

And that's fine if that's their decision.

Chef AJ: 00:09:24

But I feel that in some ways you can actually help more people by revealing your truth.

Chef AJ: 00:09:30

And a few psychologists reached out to me after the show and said one of the things that they always tell their patients is you're only as sick as your secrets.

Chef AJ: 00:09:37

And just sharing it was like.

Chef AJ: 00:09:39

And I wanted to do it sooner.

Chef AJ: 00:09:40

I was going to with Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:09:42

McDougall.

Chef AJ: 00:09:43

He was going to be my.

Chef AJ: 00:09:44

Yeah, you know, like what, what Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:09:46

Matt Letterman did.

Chef AJ: 00:09:47

And then he had the nerve, the nerve to die.

Chef AJ: 00:09:50

And so, so I kind of tabled that for a while.

Chef AJ: 00:09:52

But I'm now kind of like a little bit of a deer in the headlights because Now I feel that, well, already I told people, so now I got to keep telling them, like, what I'm going to do.

Chef AJ: 00:10:00

Because part of me, after I said, this is.

Chef AJ: 00:10:02

This is what's happening, wanted to like, okay, but I'm not going to tell you anything else.

Chef AJ: 00:10:05

I'm going to keep my treatment private.

Chef AJ: 00:10:07

But Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:10:07

Goldhammer said, no, don't do that, and you respect him very much.

Chef AJ: 00:10:11

And I am going to tell people what's.

Chef AJ: 00:10:13

What I'm going to do.

Chef AJ: 00:10:14

And you know what?

Chef AJ: 00:10:14

Somebody's going to be pissed off whatever I do.

Chef AJ: 00:10:17

And I don't have enough lifetimes to do every single thing that people are telling me what I should do.

Chef AJ: 00:10:24

It cracks me up when people say, if I were you, I would.

Chef AJ: 00:10:27

Because that is the.

Chef AJ: 00:10:29

No, you wouldn't.

Chef AJ: 00:10:30

Because if you were me, with my genetic history and my liver anxiety, you may not do that.

Chef AJ: 00:10:36

So I can't see every single doctor that's recommended, drink every single tea that's been recommended, take every supplement.

Chef AJ: 00:10:42

I do appreciate people reaching out.

Chef AJ: 00:10:44

So my journey is going to be my journey.

Chef AJ: 00:10:45

I have no idea what it looks like.

Chef AJ: 00:10:47

Am I scared?

Chef AJ: 00:10:48

Heck, yes.

Chef AJ: 00:10:48

I mean, I can't really think of very much scarier than this, but, you know, it's.

Chef AJ: 00:10:55

It helps that I'm able to share it because there are people that are coming forward that went through similar experiences, and it's really giving me hope when people, you know, get my.

Chef AJ: 00:11:03

I mean, I'm not giving everybody my number, obviously, but like, when.

Chef AJ: 00:11:06

When.

Chef AJ: 00:11:07

When the doctor emails the help desk and said, you know, I'm.

Chef AJ: 00:11:10

I'm a lung cancer survivor.

Chef AJ: 00:11:11

Stage 4, 10 years.

Chef AJ: 00:11:12

Would you like to talk?

Chef AJ: 00:11:13

It's.

Chef AJ: 00:11:14

It' very, very healing to hear that it's not always a death sentence, you know.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:11:20

Yeah.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:11:22

So can you tell us a little bit more about your diagnosis and where you are, like, today with this, the size of the tumors and what stage are you and all that stuff.

Chef AJ: 00:11:34

Absolutely.

Chef AJ: 00:11:35

So I.

Chef AJ: 00:11:36

I almost wish you would wait just another week to do this, because I will know so much more tomorrow, because tomorrow I'm finally getting what's known as a tissue biopsy.

Chef AJ: 00:11:44

That's where they take a needle.

Chef AJ: 00:11:45

It's called a core biopsy.

Chef AJ: 00:11:47

And that's where they hope to get as much tissue as possible to do the genetic testing and give you what the actual staging is.

Chef AJ: 00:11:53

So right now, my staging has been done by PET scan.

Chef AJ: 00:11:57

And the last time I had a PET scan was October 18th, the day that I actually went to true north to attempt another water fast to shrink the Tumors.

Chef AJ: 00:12:04

And according to the PET scan, my staging is stage three.

Chef AJ: 00:12:08

And the reason I jumped from stage one A to stage three is because the tumor had doubled in size.

Chef AJ: 00:12:14

And I want people to know it didn't just double between CAT scans.

Chef AJ: 00:12:17

This doubling time, about two years in the making.

Chef AJ: 00:12:20

So the primary tumor that I have in my left lower lobe, that's about 2 millimeters from my aorta.

Chef AJ: 00:12:26

That started the first time it was seen, which was April 14th.

Chef AJ: 00:12:32

rd,: 2023

Chef AJ: 00:12:35

So now it's doubled.

Chef AJ: 00:12:36

It's now 28 millimeters, which is 2.8 centimeters.

Chef AJ: 00:12:41

And because now I have what's known as a met or metastases, I only have one, thank God, and it's in my bronchial lymph node.

Chef AJ: 00:12:48

That's how come they jumped me up to ST3.

Chef AJ: 00:12:51

The thing that concerned me is when the Stanford oncologist told me this on November 5, he said, well, now we have to get a brain MRI to see if the cancer has spread to your brain and bones.

Chef AJ: 00:13:00

And so I did have that a few days ago, and thank God.

Chef AJ: 00:13:05

Yeah.

Chef AJ: 00:13:06

But here's the thing.

Chef AJ: 00:13:08

My problem isn't cancer.

Chef AJ: 00:13:09

My problem is anxiety of having cancer.

Chef AJ: 00:13:11

Because for 40 days and 40 nights, just like in the Bible, I worried what the MRI was going to show.

Chef AJ: 00:13:17

It took that long to get the MRI scheduled and to get the results.

Chef AJ: 00:13:22

But I don't have cancer in my brain and my bones.

Chef AJ: 00:13:24

And, like, that was just a great.

Chef AJ: 00:13:25

Like, I remember crying when I read it.

Chef AJ: 00:13:27

It's like I was so happy that it didn't spread there, you know, so.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:13:31

So then that definitively then means that it has not metastasized to those lung.

Chef AJ: 00:13:39

Right.

Chef AJ: 00:13:39

But.

Chef AJ: 00:13:39

But the one metastases I have is still in the lung, and it's very close to the tumor and a bronchial lymph node.

Chef AJ: 00:13:46

But they don't like it.

Chef AJ: 00:13:47

I mean, nobody likes cancer, but.

Chef AJ: 00:13:48

But especially Oncolo see it growing or spreading.

Chef AJ: 00:13:52

They don't like it at all.

Chef AJ: 00:13:53

And, you know, I don't know yet what I'm going to do for treatment, because the truth is now, without the tissue biopsy, I mean, there's really no definitive treatment offered.

Chef AJ: 00:14:04

And so generally, the gold standard for lung cancer is to remove the tumor.

Chef AJ: 00:14:10

And that was offered to me early on when it was smaller.

Chef AJ: 00:14:13

The thing is, they couldn't get what's called clear margins, clean margins.

Chef AJ: 00:14:18

So I would have.

Chef AJ: 00:14:19

And if I do do the surgery, and I'm not saying never now, I.

Chef AJ: 00:14:22

I would lose or will lose my entire left lower lobe.

Chef AJ: 00:14:25

And because I've had asthma my whole life and COPD as an adult, I just felt like I, you know, I'm like you, I'm like an exercise maniac.

Chef AJ: 00:14:33

Especially since being diagnosed with cancer because Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:14:36

Terry Shintani said you gotta really up the exercise.

Chef AJ: 00:14:39

Exercise is so important, you know, cancer.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:14:42

And then will you let people know who Dr.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:14:44

Terry Shantahi is if they don't know who he is?

Chef AJ: 00:14:46

I love Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:14:47

Terry Shintani.

Chef AJ: 00:14:48

He is a doctor in Hawaii.

Chef AJ: 00:14:49

On the main bought Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:14:51

John McDougall's practice many years ago for the total sum of $1.

Chef AJ: 00:14:55

He wrote the Keith's diet and he, like you, follows a whole food plant based, oil free, starch based diet.

Chef AJ: 00:15:02

And he helps the people of Hawaii who often have, you know, problems with diabetes and obesity do that.

Chef AJ: 00:15:09

And so, you know, I think about the exercise is so important to me now because it helps anxiety that am I going to be able to exercise to the degree I am now without that left lower lobe?

Chef AJ: 00:15:20

And you know, nobody seems to know the answ.

Chef AJ: 00:15:22

I just had some pulmonary function tests repeated and you know, some of the surgeons are saying yeah, it's good enough.

Chef AJ: 00:15:28

But you know, nobody knows what it's like to live without a lobe until you live without a lobe.

Chef AJ: 00:15:33

You know, so I've had a past, previous past experiences with general anesthesia where I've stopped breathing.

Chef AJ: 00:15:39

And unless, until, and unless somebody can get to the bottom of that like either with genetic testing or an anesthesiologist really takes this seriously.

Chef AJ: 00:15:48

They won't do lobectomies without, without general anesthesia.

Chef AJ: 00:15:52

And the reason I'm able to get the tissue biopsy tomorrow is that is that is a general anesthesia free procedure.

Chef AJ: 00:15:58

My doctor is willing to do it with nothing because I'm hardcore that way.

Chef AJ: 00:16:02

I had my endoscopy done and my, my colonoscopy done without any sedation.

Chef AJ: 00:16:07

And so he says he will do it with nothing.

Chef AJ: 00:16:09

But they always do put an IV in just in case, you know, if you're really uncomfortable they give you a little bit of juice.

Chef AJ: 00:16:14

And by juice I don't, I mean like light sedation like, like something called Versed.

Chef AJ: 00:16:18

I told him I didn't want the fentanyl.

Chef AJ: 00:16:20

So I mean, I can't tell you what it's going to be like until I have it.

Chef AJ: 00:16:23

But yeah, I just, at first they didn't want to do the needle biopsy because the tumor was too small.

Chef AJ: 00:16:29

And it's hard, you know, when tumors are small, it's hard to get them through a needle biopsy, especially when the tumor is in the dead center of your chest.

Chef AJ: 00:16:35

But the interventional radiologist feels with the size now that he's going to be able to hit it.

Chef AJ: 00:16:40

And I did have something called a blood biopsy, which is interesting in our country.

Chef AJ: 00:16:44

They don't consider that, like, meaningful.

Chef AJ: 00:16:47

In other countries, I've interviewed some doctors or in England people will do that, whereas it's a lot less invasive than, than a surgical biopsy where you're, they're just taking your blood.

Chef AJ: 00:16:57

nd mine showed in December of: 2023

Reb Esselstyn: 00:17:09

Let's, let's go back just for a second and because, you know, you mentioned Dr.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:17:15

Terry Shintahi and then exercise.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:17:17

So I just want to talk about those two things for a second.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:17:21

You know, you give one of the most brilliant calorie density lectures that I've ever seen.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:17:27

You do such an amazing job with it.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:17:29

And you reference, I think Jeff Novik and I think Terry and who's the woman from Penn state that's done?

Chef AJ: 00:17:37

Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:17:37

Barbara rolls.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:17:38

Barbara Rolls, yes.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:17:39

But Terry, you know, I give a calorie density talk as well.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:17:42

: 2500

Reb Esselstyn: 00:17:54

So I think that I, when he's great like that, you've got to have.

Chef AJ: 00:17:58

Him on your show.

Chef AJ: 00:17:59

He's, he's just, he's a wonderful human and not a lot of people know about him.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:18:03

I will.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:18:03

I absolutely.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:18:04

Is he still, he's still in Hawaii, right?

Chef AJ: 00:18:05

Hawaii.

Chef AJ: 00:18:06

I'll hook you up.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:18:06

Yeah, that'd be great.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:18:08

So the other thing.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:18:09

So you mentioned exercise.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:18:11

Tell me, because I'm trying to picture what kind of exercise do you engage in?

Reb Esselstyn: 00:18:17

I just can't.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:18:18

Do you walk, do you swim, do you bike?

Reb Esselstyn: 00:18:21

What is it?

Chef AJ: 00:18:21

What I do is I own a spin bike, not a fancy peloton.

Chef AJ: 00:18:25

I got a used Kaiser many years ago when Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:18:27

Doug Lyle said, look, somebody like you, if you have to spend the time to get in the car and drive to the gym and look for a parking space, you're never going to do it.

Chef AJ: 00:18:34

He goes, just buy a damn bike.

Chef AJ: 00:18:36

So I did.

Chef AJ: 00:18:36

And I spend every day for a minimum of 60 minutes at the highest intensity I can do on that given day, but I do the whole thing standing, so.

Chef AJ: 00:18:44

Because I want to be drenched with sweat.

Chef AJ: 00:18:46

You know, I don't.

Chef AJ: 00:18:46

I don't want to just take a stroll on the.

Chef AJ: 00:18:48

You know, I don't want to.

Chef AJ: 00:18:49

I mean, you really.

Chef AJ: 00:18:50

In general, it's better, but especially for cancer, you want to get all those toxins out.

Chef AJ: 00:18:54

You want to really sweat.

Chef AJ: 00:18:55

And so I usually, what I do is I do something else on the bike to distract me because I don't love exercise.

Chef AJ: 00:19:00

So I'll play Words with Friends.

Chef AJ: 00:19:02

I'll.

Chef AJ: 00:19:02

I'll listen to a podcast like.

Chef AJ: 00:19:04

Like.

Chef AJ: 00:19:04

Like yours or.

Chef AJ: 00:19:05

Or just do something fun or talk on the phone, and the next thing I know, an hour has passed, and when I have the time, I try to go 90 minutes.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:19:12

Okay, great.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:19:14

So you mentioned a couple people in your life, but I'd love to talk about your support system that you've kind of put in place, having now been diagnosed with lung cancer and all the emotional challenges that you must be, you know, faced with.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:19:35

And can.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:19:36

Can you talk about some of the support systems you have in place right now to deal with them?

Chef AJ: 00:19:40

Absolutely.

Chef AJ: 00:19:41

And I wish I had known about these sooner.

Chef AJ: 00:19:44

And that's another reason I want to do this series, Thriving in the Face of Cancer.

Chef AJ: 00:19:47

So people know.

Chef AJ: 00:19:47

I mean, if they.

Chef AJ: 00:19:48

If some people like to do things privately and they.

Chef AJ: 00:19:51

They can absolutely do that.

Chef AJ: 00:19:52

But I would say to those people, and at least this is what I've been told, and when I've looked at the research, it shows that people that get support do better in general with any chronic disease, especially cancer.

Chef AJ: 00:20:06

And so the thing is, you gotta find a social worker, because I didn't even really know what a social worker was.

Chef AJ: 00:20:12

I know that that was my mom's profession, but as a little kid, it's like, what do you do?

Chef AJ: 00:20:16

I don't know.

Chef AJ: 00:20:16

These are the men and women of the hospital systems that know what's going on, and they can get you into support groups for whatever your disease is, but in my case, cancer in general, and often your specific type of cancer, and these actually can become your lifeline.

Chef AJ: 00:20:33

It's kind of like, you know, I never drank alcohol, but I know I have friends that are recovering alcoholics, and their lifeline is going to AA meetings.

Chef AJ: 00:20:41

And they don't just go to AA meetings when they're doing poorly or about to relapse or have relapsed, but they do it in general.

Chef AJ: 00:20:49

They make this a priority.

Chef AJ: 00:20:51

And I spend more time now going to these groups, but they're.

Chef AJ: 00:20:54

They're Just I can tell you all day what it's like to have cancer, and you'll be like, oh, yeah, I'm sorry to hear that.

Chef AJ: 00:20:59

But until you have it, like, the kind of anxiety you feel and what you're going through with the medical system and just with your treatments, you're with a group of people that have basically been there, done that.

Chef AJ: 00:21:09

And so in all my support groups, I'm like the newbie.

Chef AJ: 00:21:12

And it's like, they're not laughing at me in that way, but they're like, you know, like, because they.

Chef AJ: 00:21:17

They've.

Chef AJ: 00:21:17

They've been through it, right?

Chef AJ: 00:21:19

And a lot of these people have had recurring cancers or different stages, but it's just.

Chef AJ: 00:21:24

They become your rock.

Chef AJ: 00:21:25

And I don't know how people.

Chef AJ: 00:21:27

I have some friends right now that have cancer that have kept it to themselves.

Chef AJ: 00:21:30

And I'm like, please go.

Chef AJ: 00:21:32

Just go one time, and they're free.

Chef AJ: 00:21:34

And what's wonderful about them is even if you don't, like, I'm in a support group at Stanford.

Chef AJ: 00:21:39

I don't go to Stanford.

Chef AJ: 00:21:40

Like, all the hospitals have them, and you don't have to be a patient at that hospital.

Chef AJ: 00:21:44

And so it's pretty cool.

Chef AJ: 00:21:46

And they have support for what they call caregiver or family.

Chef AJ: 00:21:49

Like, I don't think my husband's doing very well, but he's a guy and he's stoic and he's not saying anything.

Chef AJ: 00:21:55

And I like, please just go to one meeting, and then you can get supported if you're a family member of somebody with cancer.

Chef AJ: 00:22:01

So there are things in place that I never knew of.

Chef AJ: 00:22:05

And there's a lot of people out there, I mean, that want to help people with cancer either because they had it or they had a family member with it.

Chef AJ: 00:22:11

Because, I mean, listen, no, no disease is fun and no chronic disease is fun, but there's something a little bit unique about cancer and that it's just so unpredictable, you know, and what may work for one may not work for another.

Chef AJ: 00:22:24

And that's why, while all this advice is, well meaning, I don't think people just understand that just because it worked for your, you know, Aunt Gladys, it does.

Chef AJ: 00:22:32

It doesn't mean it's necessarily going to work for me because there's so many different types of even the same kind of cancer and what a person will respond to.

Chef AJ: 00:22:41

And so, you know, my feeling is I'm going to try everything.

Chef AJ: 00:22:45

I'm not going to leave any stone.

Chef AJ: 00:22:47

I mean, I'm not going to necessarily try everything all at the same time because I really don't know if I'll go the conventional route because part of me really doesn't want to take any medicine.

Chef AJ: 00:22:55

And chemo sounds terrible.

Chef AJ: 00:22:56

I don't know anybody that's had chemo that said, boy, that was great, let's do that again.

Chef AJ: 00:23:01

There are people that have had surgery that said that wasn't so bad after they recovered and the same thing with radiation.

Chef AJ: 00:23:07

But if there's something that I can do that's gentler, like immunotherapy or maybe some off label drugs or something that's less toxic, at least at first, I would like to try that.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:23:17

No, I have heard that they've come light years with immunotherapy.

Chef AJ: 00:23:22

Yeah, that's what I really want.

Chef AJ: 00:23:23

Because even Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:23:24

Goldhamer, who, as you know, true north, he's not a big fan of the conventional treatments, he said that's what I really want you to look into.

Chef AJ: 00:23:30

But without the tissue, they can't just guess.

Chef AJ: 00:23:33

And so that could be very helpful.

Chef AJ: 00:23:35

Being a highly anxious person.

Chef AJ: 00:23:36

My fear now I'm over the fear that I'm going to get killed during the needle biopsy.

Chef AJ: 00:23:41

I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.

Chef AJ: 00:23:43

That's at least with the guy that's doing it.

Chef AJ: 00:23:45

He's been doing it 29 years.

Chef AJ: 00:23:46

Said haven't showed a patient yet.

Chef AJ: 00:23:48

And he said, he did say, you are the most anxious patient I've ever had.

Chef AJ: 00:23:51

You know, because most of the time when you have a procedure like that, you meet your doctor in the operating room and I'm like, I need to meet you first.

Chef AJ: 00:23:59

He met with me an hour, he talked to me for another half hour.

Chef AJ: 00:24:02

He was really so I felt really, really comfortable with him.

Chef AJ: 00:24:05

But you know, there is a risk.

Chef AJ: 00:24:06

And he acknowledges that sometimes with the best effort, they don't get all the tissue they need to make a conclusive diagnosis, which is unfortunate because then you would probably have to do it again.

Chef AJ: 00:24:16

And then the other risk, I'm told in about 20% of the cases is they do puncture your lung, which isn't necessarily life threatening because, well, you're in the hospital and then they, you know, they have to admit you and give you a chest tube.

Chef AJ: 00:24:27

So you know, people are saying, well, can, can you live stream it?

Chef AJ: 00:24:31

And I'm like, well, you know, I could, except the hospital just doesn't, doesn't allow it.

Chef AJ: 00:24:36

I mean I would if, if people find it interesting.

Chef AJ: 00:24:39

So yeah, yeah.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:24:40

So I'd love to talk about some of the other support people you have in place.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:24:46

And you talked about it with, with Matt the other day.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:24:50

So for, for starters, Alan Goldhammer, true North, you said you were, you were there recently, you attempted to go back and do a fast.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:24:58

Why the word attempt?

Chef AJ: 00:25:00

Well, no, I, I did do a fast.

Chef AJ: 00:25:01

But you know, you hear about these people that these, these people and they do 40 day fasts.

Chef AJ: 00:25:07

Right.

Chef AJ: 00:25:07

And I mean, I don't know how that's even possible because I can never seem to get to day four without having either vomiting or blood sugar of 46.

Chef AJ: 00:25:16

It's hard because I don't have the reserves right now.

Chef AJ: 00:25:18

I went there as a patient in: 2011

Chef AJ: 00:25:32

Peter Sultana.

Chef AJ: 00:25:33

And I've always kept him in my work world, like just talking to him from time to time, just about whatever was going on in my regular life.

Chef AJ: 00:25:40

And because they do virtual consults, but once I was diagnosed, I was making a virtual appointment every month.

Chef AJ: 00:25:46

So that was very comforting.

Chef AJ: 00:25:47

And now every two weeks.

Chef AJ: 00:25:48

And so they knew, they do know what's going on.

Chef AJ: 00:25:50

But I'm very grateful to Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:25:52

Goldhammer because I mentioned on my live, he was the second person I called right after my comedy teacher because as you know, when you're diagnosed with cancer, the first person everyone should call is their stand up comedy teacher.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:26:04

Yeah.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:26:06

You also mentioned Doug Lyle.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:26:08

So Doug, Doug has played an important role.

Chef AJ: 00:26:13

Yeah, this and well also, you know, Doug, I believe it was Stanford where he was a statistics professor.

Chef AJ: 00:26:18

So he would help me with things, understand things like doubling times and more than that, just helping me understand the anxiety.

Chef AJ: 00:26:24

So, yeah, lots of sessions with Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:26:26

Lyle since then and even, even now just for, just for life, things in general.

Chef AJ: 00:26:30

So he's been enormously helpful as a Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:26:33

Goldhammer and just True north in general has just, I mean, it's been fantastic, you know, and when Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:26:38

McDougal was alive, he like anytime I would get scared or anxious, he would just hop on Zoom and you know, just really, really comfort me and say things like, I really think you're going to beat this, you're going to die with the tumor instead of from it.

Chef AJ: 00:26:49

And he actually came to some of my doctor appointments with me, the ones on Zoom.

Chef AJ: 00:26:53

And you know, you know what he's like.

Chef AJ: 00:26:54

So they don't know.

Chef AJ: 00:26:55

Nobody messes with Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:26:57

McDougall.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:26:57

No you also, there was this, this other strange person that was mentioned several times.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:27:06

The magical mark.

Chef AJ: 00:27:07

Yeah, it's so, you know, I, I, I'm not trying to hide him from people, although part of me feels like if I tell the world about him, I'll never get an appointment.

Chef AJ: 00:27:16

So sometimes, you know, some people are more open to experience than other people.

Chef AJ: 00:27:22

And there's a lot of people that, you know, you got to show them the data, you got to prove to them that it's it, that it exists before they try it.

Chef AJ: 00:27:29

But when Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:27:31

McDougall had passed away, which was June 22, I had texted several of my friends and colleagues because, you know, I was obviously sad and I wanted them to know because we did a memorial service for him.

Chef AJ: 00:27:41

And I remember texting Matt and you know, he said, you're kidding.

Chef AJ: 00:27:45

And I'm like, no.

Chef AJ: 00:27:45

And he was, oh my God.

Chef AJ: 00:27:46

And I said, and yeah.

Chef AJ: 00:27:47

He goes, how are you handling this?

Chef AJ: 00:27:48

And I said, I'm really sad because he was helping me with my cancer.

Chef AJ: 00:27:51

He goes, what do you mean, your cancer?

Chef AJ: 00:27:52

I'm like, oh, shoot, I guess you're one of the people I didn't tell.

Chef AJ: 00:27:55

And so then he kind of just, you know, came back into my life.

Chef AJ: 00:28:00

e, I think since I met him in: 2007

Chef AJ: 00:28:20

And this was stuff in the medical literature that basically said that while you can't really say that stress causes cancer, having stress is not a good thing when you have it.

Chef AJ: 00:28:30

It can cause the tumors to metastasize and things like that.

Chef AJ: 00:28:33

And he said, you know, will you just trust me and do this thing?

Chef AJ: 00:28:36

And I'm like, yeah, whatever.

Chef AJ: 00:28:37

And so I did this thing.

Chef AJ: 00:28:38

It's, I can tell you exactly what this guy Mark does if you saw the movie Inside out or Inside Out 2.

Chef AJ: 00:28:46

The movie, the Pixar movie.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:28:48

I haven't.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:28:49

I haven't.

Chef AJ: 00:28:50

All right, so it's an adorable movie that, where there's this young girl named Riley and she has these parts inside of her.

Chef AJ: 00:28:58

So in other words, the idea was, is she, there's part of her that's joy, anger, sadness, that we're all composed of different emotions, but in the movie they were actual parts.

Chef AJ: 00:29:07

And so they were cartoon characters.

Chef AJ: 00:29:09

Right?

Chef AJ: 00:29:10

She was a, she was a human child.

Chef AJ: 00:29:12

And these little parts were more like cartoon characters.

Chef AJ: 00:29:14

And they were kind of running the control panel.

Chef AJ: 00:29:16

And so if you understand that movie, you'll understand something called ifs or internal family system or parts work, which was developed by Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:29:23

Richard Schwartz.

Chef AJ: 00:29:24

And the idea is, is that we have all these different parts and that the parts are there for a reason.

Chef AJ: 00:29:32

So an example like so part I have, anxiety is one of my parts.

Chef AJ: 00:29:36

And instead of trying to shut anxiety up or medicate her with psychiatric drugs, you need to want to, you want to listen to what they have to say.

Chef AJ: 00:29:44

And the idea is you can learn to accept them and love them and then heal as a whole person.

Chef AJ: 00:29:50

And so the work with Mark isn't to overcome cancer.

Chef AJ: 00:29:52

He's not a doctor, but it's, it's.

Chef AJ: 00:29:54

He, he just created a very warm space of like, see again it.

Chef AJ: 00:30:00

Things that are experiential are very hard to describe, but it's partly because of who he is as a person.

Chef AJ: 00:30:06

He's very gentle, he's got a very calm voice and he, he just provided a space for me to heal.

Chef AJ: 00:30:11

Now every time I do the work with him, it's like I say to him, I say, I'm like, this is stupid, this isn't going to work.

Chef AJ: 00:30:17

This is just the stu.

Chef AJ: 00:30:18

Like I'm doing it, I'm resisting it, and yet it's helping me.

Chef AJ: 00:30:22

That's all I can say.

Chef AJ: 00:30:23

But the thing is, it's not a one and done.

Chef AJ: 00:30:25

And what I mean by that, see Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:30:27

Lyle, for many people is a one and done.

Chef AJ: 00:30:29

Like if you book a session with Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:30:30

Lyle, if you have a specific problem, like your spouse or your child or your co worker, One session with Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:30:36

Lyle is often enough for you to get an answer.

Chef AJ: 00:30:39

But with this kind of work, because we always have different emotions, we have these different parts and sometimes they're what Mark says they're driving the bus.

Chef AJ: 00:30:46

And, and the problem is most of my life anxiety has been driving the bus drive.

Chef AJ: 00:30:51

He's been driving the bus is because anxiety has been trying to save me specifically from getting another operation and dying.

Chef AJ: 00:30:56

Because the last time I got an operation, I stopped breathing from the general anesthesia.

Chef AJ: 00:31:00

So this is, I call him the magic unicorn.

Chef AJ: 00:31:02

And I have since referred actually several people to him.

Chef AJ: 00:31:05

And again, it's not for everyone, but I would encourage anyone to try it.

Chef AJ: 00:31:09

You can't just do one session and expect to be cured.

Chef AJ: 00:31:11

You know, it's just, just kind of, you know, he's not the Ozempic of mental health.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:31:15

Right, right, right.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:31:18

And what about.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:31:20

What about Charles and Bailey?

Reb Esselstyn: 00:31:21

I know that.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:31:22

How.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:31:22

You know, they must.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:31:23

They must be your rocks.

Chef AJ: 00:31:25

Well, Bailey, unfortunately got sick at the same time as me with.

Chef AJ: 00:31:28

She had two strokes, mini strokes.

Chef AJ: 00:31:30

But she.

Chef AJ: 00:31:31

You know, her.

Chef AJ: 00:31:31

Her days are numbered.

Chef AJ: 00:31:32

So it's.

Chef AJ: 00:31:32

I think it's harder for Charles because he's seeing the two ladies in his life kind of go through something.

Chef AJ: 00:31:38

So, you know, I try to.

Chef AJ: 00:31:39

I try to be positive, and that's where humor comes in.

Chef AJ: 00:31:41

It's like.

Chef AJ: 00:31:42

I don't know if you're familiar with a movie that Roberto Benigni won an Oscar for called My Beautiful Life, where play a comedy in the concentration camp and you go, well, how can you do that?

Chef AJ: 00:31:52

That's disrespectful.

Chef AJ: 00:31:53

But the idea wasn't.

Chef AJ: 00:31:54

They were making fun of the Holocaust.

Chef AJ: 00:31:55

It's like this was his reality, so find joy in it.

Chef AJ: 00:31:59

And that's what I really.

Chef AJ: 00:32:00

That is really been, like, my motto, find joy.

Chef AJ: 00:32:02

Like, I.

Chef AJ: 00:32:03

I created for myself what I call the seven foundations to healing, or seven foundations to thriving.

Chef AJ: 00:32:08

And every day, I make sure these seven things are part of my life.

Chef AJ: 00:32:12

And these are in alphabetical order.

Chef AJ: 00:32:13

Faith, family, fitness, food, forgiveness, friends, and fun.

Chef AJ: 00:32:18

And so those are.

Chef AJ: 00:32:19

Those are.

Chef AJ: 00:32:19

For me, these don't have to be everybody's foundation, but for me, that's what I'm really focusing on.

Chef AJ: 00:32:26

And, like, there was been too long where fun was just not in the.

Chef AJ: 00:32:30

In the mix.

Chef AJ: 00:32:30

Right.

Chef AJ: 00:32:31

Because I was just really working hard, make enough money and, you know, that kind of thing.

Chef AJ: 00:32:34

And now the other f.

Chef AJ: 00:32:36

Finances is like, I don't want to say I don't care.

Chef AJ: 00:32:38

I still have to work, but my life isn't driven by, you know, social media likes or I just.

Chef AJ: 00:32:43

I mean, now I'm actually more present in my life because I don't check social media.

Chef AJ: 00:32:48

I mean, I couldn't.

Chef AJ: 00:32:49

I mean, because it blew up.

Chef AJ: 00:32:50

You know, I can't answer 3,000.

Chef AJ: 00:32:52

It's not possible.

Chef AJ: 00:32:54

Or even the amount of email I have.

Chef AJ: 00:32:56

So.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:32:57

Yeah, can you.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:32:58

Can you go through those seven one more time, just a little slower?

Chef AJ: 00:33:01

Sure.

Chef AJ: 00:33:02

They're in alphabetical order.

Chef AJ: 00:33:03

So the first one is faith.

Chef AJ: 00:33:04

Because I've.

Chef AJ: 00:33:05

I'm not a religious person per se.

Chef AJ: 00:33:08

I mean, I believe in God.

Chef AJ: 00:33:09

aven't been at a Temple since: 1986

Chef AJ: 00:33:16

But I.

Chef AJ: 00:33:17

I do have faith and of something greater than myself.

Chef AJ: 00:33:20

And what I've learned from the many support groups that I have and I'm sure there's going to be an exception out there, but all the people I know that are still alive with cancer say their faith is what got them through.

Chef AJ: 00:33:30

So faith is really important to me.

Chef AJ: 00:33:32

And that doesn't mean like praying or meditating.

Chef AJ: 00:33:34

It just means that I start my day instead of, you know, checking email with something positive that's going to go in my brain.

Chef AJ: 00:33:40

aven't watched the news since: 2018

Chef AJ: 00:33:53

So something, something spending some time in faith before I get out of bed, you know.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:33:57

Well, you just, you just mentioned Rick Warren and I know, I think in your podcast you mentioned, he has a quote that you, that, that you have embraced.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:34:06

You know, you can't deny the diagnosis, but you can defy the verdict.

Chef AJ: 00:34:12

That's, that helped me so much and that's what I'm, I'm attempting to do.

Chef AJ: 00:34:16

Absolutely.

Chef AJ: 00:34:17

So that, yeah, he's helped me a lot.

Chef AJ: 00:34:18

I actually wrote it.

Chef AJ: 00:34:19

You know, I don't, I don't write like fan letters, but I don't know if he'll ever read it, but I wrote how much it helped me just finding him at this time, because his podcast is called Daily Hope.

Chef AJ: 00:34:27

And even if you don't want to listen to him because maybe there is too much of religious bent for it, everybody needs Daily hope in this world, whether they have cancer or not.

Chef AJ: 00:34:36

And I do find myself going to, I don't want to say church because church connotes things to people, but I do find myself on the weekend going to as many places of worship as possible, even if it's not my faith, because for me, there's just something tremendously healing about being in that space of other people that also have hope, you know, And I'm not becoming any specific religion, but there's just something nice in hearing these messages and hearing the music.

Chef AJ: 00:35:00

And so that's been, that's been really helpful to me and that's something I'm going to continue.

Chef AJ: 00:35:04

So I have a friend here who's also very open minded, named Trish.

Chef AJ: 00:35:08

And we've been just trying a different church every week, you know, the denomination, because I got to tell you that if you can get by some of the dogma, the message of just love and there's, there's just good to be found there, at least for me at this time.

Chef AJ: 00:35:22

In my life, you know, so I've been.

Chef AJ: 00:35:24

I've been appreciating that very much.

Chef AJ: 00:35:26

And then, of course, family, you know, Faith, family.

Chef AJ: 00:35:29

Spending time with Charles and Bailey is like my number one priority.

Chef AJ: 00:35:33

And so when people, you know, offer me jobs, it's like, I don't know if I want to be away from Bailey eight days or Charles anymore.

Chef AJ: 00:35:40

I'm gonna please continue to do the jobs that I accepted before this.

Chef AJ: 00:35:44

I have a couple nights next year.

Chef AJ: 00:35:45

But for the most part, it's like, I don't want to be away from them.

Chef AJ: 00:35:48

And that's, that's the thing with treatment, because there's some really wonderful places I'm told that I could go for treatment, but if they can't go with me, I mean, I don't want to be away from them.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:35:57

You know, I can't imagine somebody not.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:36:00

Not allowing you to bring them with you.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:36:02

What, what are.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:36:02

Give me an example.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:36:03

Like, what's a job that you would do that takes you away for six, seven, eight days?

Chef AJ: 00:36:08

Well, take, for example, and I have two of them next year.

Chef AJ: 00:36:10

But it's incredibly healing when I'm invited to, to be the guest chef at Rancho Laporta in Mexico.

Chef AJ: 00:36:15

It's an eight day job out of the country.

Chef AJ: 00:36:17

So.

Chef AJ: 00:36:17

So I did accept two of those last year.

Chef AJ: 00:36:19

And I'm not going to renege on my offer, but.

Chef AJ: 00:36:22

But now I weigh things very carefully.

Chef AJ: 00:36:24

And, you know, it's funny, because it was so much freedom to be able to tell people because people were offering me jobs and I didn't want to accept them because I didn't.

Chef AJ: 00:36:31

I didn't know how fast.

Chef AJ: 00:36:32

I didn't.

Chef AJ: 00:36:33

I still have not got a symptom from cancer yet.

Chef AJ: 00:36:36

And so I didn't know, like, well, I don't want to disappoint somebody and take a job and then find out out, you know, so now I'm honest with them and I say, you know, this is the situation, and of course I'm going to do the job.

Chef AJ: 00:36:45

And, you know, and they understand that now.

Chef AJ: 00:36:47

So.

Chef AJ: 00:36:48

But yeah, being home and yes, Charles and Bailey could go with me anywhere for treatment, but certain places where treatment has been recommended, like Germany or Mexico, it's not super feasible for them to go.

Chef AJ: 00:36:58

But if it's in a medical institution somewhere in the United States, of course they can go.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:37:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:37:03

Okay.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:37:03

And then.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:37:04

And then fitness.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:37:05

We know about your hour and a half on the bike walking Bailey, but.

Chef AJ: 00:37:09

Bailey is so slow now.

Chef AJ: 00:37:10

I cannot count that as fitness.

Chef AJ: 00:37:11

I count that as Family and fun because, because we got it.

Chef AJ: 00:37:14

Most of the time we're pushing her in a buggy.

Chef AJ: 00:37:16

But yeah, you know, you know, I never, I never realized if, you know, because you, you're, you're from a family of athletes and so you had that gene in you.

Chef AJ: 00:37:25

You know, your dad's an Olympic gold medalist, for God's sake, and your mother exercises like a maniac and your sister and you were a competitive swimmer and triathlete.

Chef AJ: 00:37:33

I, I got, got the fitness memo late in life.

Chef AJ: 00:37:36

So it was a little harder for me to adopt that as a daily habit.

Chef AJ: 00:37:38

It really wasn't until I was in my 50s.

Chef AJ: 00:37:41

But now, you know, when, when things are positioned in a certain way, it makes it easier.

Chef AJ: 00:37:45

So when Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:37:46

Lyle said to me about 10 years ago, he goes, look, you know, because I, I wasn't exercising to lose weight.

Chef AJ: 00:37:52

Because we know that, that, that, that's not a reason to exercise.

Chef AJ: 00:37:55

I mean, it can help, but it's not really the primary thing.

Chef AJ: 00:37:58

It's the food.

Chef AJ: 00:37:59

Which I want to tell you, it is the food, but I got to tell you, it's not just the food.

Chef AJ: 00:38:03

There are other healing factors that I think are sadly overlooked often in our plant based world.

Chef AJ: 00:38:08

But when Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:38:09

Lyle said, Just think of exercise is your anti anxiety and antidepressant medicine that you used to be on.

Chef AJ: 00:38:16

And then when he phrased it that way, it's like, okay, well if I was on drugs, I would get up in the morning and take that pill.

Chef AJ: 00:38:21

So now I just get up in the morning and I have to do it first because if I let the day get away, I can find every reason not to get on the bike.

Chef AJ: 00:38:28

But it's almost like it's just a habit.

Chef AJ: 00:38:30

I get up, I go to the bike, it's done.

Chef AJ: 00:38:32

I don't have to think about it for another 24 hours, you know.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:38:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:38:36

So, okay, let's talk about the food.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:38:39

Right?

Reb Esselstyn: 00:38:40

And obviously I think everybody knows that, you know, you are about as hardcore a whole food plant based SOS free advocate as there as there is.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:38:51

But like, and I know you've probably gotten every comment under the sun, but how, what role do you feel plant based nutrition has played in your cancer journey?

Chef AJ: 00:39:02

Right.

Chef AJ: 00:39:03

Well, here's the thing.

Chef AJ: 00:39:04

Nobody can say for sure, but even the doctors that don't necessarily believe in some of the things that we believe about the impact of nutrition on health, they have said to me, it is your healthy diet and lifestyle that has kept this thing at bay for so long.

Chef AJ: 00:39:17

That's what I've been told that's what people seem to believe is the reason that I think I'm doing so well and that if I do choose to have treatment, I, I might have an easier time or bounce back quicker.

Chef AJ: 00:39:28

And so, yes, I'm an SOS free advocate in terms of the recipes I write, but I got this reputation of being gold hammer perfect when I never really was.

Chef AJ: 00:39:36

In other words, when I create recipes, I want everybody for every diet style to be able to use them, including the people at True north or the nha.

Chef AJ: 00:39:43

But that doesn't mean that you personally can't sprinkle some salt on their recipe or you personally couldn't put some dates or something into it.

Chef AJ: 00:39:51

So I've never been perfect with the salt.

Chef AJ: 00:39:53

It's the hard.

Chef AJ: 00:39:53

I mean, I don't cook with it.

Chef AJ: 00:39:54

I just don't because I, I feel like people can add theirs if they want, but, you know, I've gotten a little bit lazier as I get older and I'm not perfect with it.

Chef AJ: 00:40:03

So things like ketchup and barbecue sauce and mustard condiments, for example, I can make them, I'm a chef, but I don't.

Chef AJ: 00:40:11

I will say, though, that, you know, my diet is a little bit more flexible now because I talk about calorie density.

Chef AJ: 00:40:17

Well, I've kind of had to increase the calorie density of it because I was getting too skinny, because, because I'd gotten down to £100 at my water fast and that is underweight.

Chef AJ: 00:40:25

And so I'm trying to get it back up to at least 110.

Chef AJ: 00:40:28

So I got to eat some of those nuts now.

Chef AJ: 00:40:30

I got to eat a little bit of bread and a little bit of avocado because this is why, again, when you're a hammer, you see everything is a nail.

Chef AJ: 00:40:38

But you and I so understand calorie density and believe it.

Chef AJ: 00:40:41

And that's why I really, if people want to lose weight, it just, it never fails you because just following the diet that I ate to lose weight is not, couldn't, would not put any weight on me.

Chef AJ: 00:40:51

I mean, I can eat all the potatoes, rice, you know, fruits, vegetables, and I couldn't gain any weight, you know, so I had to add more of the calorically dense foods, which are bread.

Chef AJ: 00:41:00

And I don't eat a lot of it because I have to be gluten free.

Chef AJ: 00:41:02

And, you know, even when I'm eating it and enjoying, I'm like, you know, this isn't the healthiest thing I could be eating.

Chef AJ: 00:41:07

And nuts and seeds and avocado and things like that.

Chef AJ: 00:41:10

You know, the more, as Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:41:11

Goldham would call, the more concentrated calories.

Chef AJ: 00:41:14

And it's funny because, you know, the conventional doctors don't think nutrition has anything to do with your getting cancer or your health.

Chef AJ: 00:41:21

And a lot of times I've heard oncologists say, oh, you know, what you're going through this, you know, in their goal is just to have the patient gain weight.

Chef AJ: 00:41:27

It doesn't have to be healthy weight or just eat whatever you want.

Chef AJ: 00:41:30

And you know, like, for about five minutes, I had a pity party.

Chef AJ: 00:41:33

Well, poor me, I can eat whatever I want, but I didn't want the unhealthy food because.

Chef AJ: 00:41:38

And it's not about that.

Chef AJ: 00:41:39

I thought, like, it's not.

Chef AJ: 00:41:40

Not like it's gonna give me cancer, but it was like, I almost was like, like, I don't feel good when I eat unhealthy food.

Chef AJ: 00:41:46

I've eaten healthy food so long now that when I eat unhealthy food and, And I'm all about feeling good right now.

Chef AJ: 00:41:53

And so, yeah, I just.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:41:55

Yeah, you've got a bait.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:41:57

You've got a baseline for how you want to feel.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:41:59

Like at a minimum, just by eating this way.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:42:03

Reb Esselstyn: 00:42:04

I hear you loud and clear.

Chef AJ: 00:42:05

Yeah, absolutely.

Chef AJ: 00:42:07

And, you know, I'm.

Chef AJ: 00:42:07

I'm lucky that, you know, you know, everybody says, oh, sugar feeds cancer.

Chef AJ: 00:42:10

She eats too many desserts with D dates and bananas.

Chef AJ: 00:42:12

I don't know why people think I just sit here, eat dessert all day.

Chef AJ: 00:42:15

I don't.

Chef AJ: 00:42:15

Even though I wrote a dessert cookbook, I eat it sometimes.

Chef AJ: 00:42:18

But most of the dessert I eat is fruit.

Chef AJ: 00:42:20

To be honest, when I eat dessert, and most of the time, I'm so full from potatoes and sweet potatoes and veggies, I don't have room for dessert a lot of the time.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:42:27

All your incredible one pot meals.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:42:31

So let's talk about some of the.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:42:33

And then I.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:42:33

But I'm still on your.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:42:35

Your of your seven Fs.

Chef AJ: 00:42:36

We're on.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:42:37

We're on food here.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:42:38

But I would love to.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:42:39

For you to.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:42:40

You texted me some of the negative comments that people have said.

Chef AJ: 00:42:43

Those are funny.

Chef AJ: 00:42:43

We did a whole show about that.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:42:45

You did?

Chef AJ: 00:42:46

Yeah.

Chef AJ: 00:42:47

And it's just.

Chef AJ: 00:42:48

It's just.

Chef AJ: 00:42:48

They're just.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:42:49

What are some of the crazy things that people are saying caused your cancer?

Chef AJ: 00:42:53

Oh, I wore an acrylic shirt once on the show.

Chef AJ: 00:42:55

I wore a shirt with acrylic fibers.

Chef AJ: 00:42:58

Yes.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:42:59

Okay.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:43:01

And what.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:43:01

And then the pressure cooker.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:43:03

What.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:43:03

What about the pressure cooker?

Chef AJ: 00:43:05

Right.

Chef AJ: 00:43:05

Well, here's the thing, anytime you have one of the things Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:43:08

Letterman said is we all have cancer in our body but it's so small that most of us can't detect it.

Chef AJ: 00:43:13

And my tumors weren't detected till they were 4 millimeters.

Chef AJ: 00:43:16

But that means whatever's in me has been growing for like over 20 years.

Chef AJ: 00:43:20

I didn't even get a pressure cooker to like I don't know, 10 years ago, right.

Chef AJ: 00:43:24

And it's in.

Chef AJ: 00:43:25

And I didn't get an air fryer till like maybe seven years ago.

Chef AJ: 00:43:28

And people say, well she colors her hair.

Chef AJ: 00:43:30

I didn't start doing that till about, about five years ago.

Chef AJ: 00:43:33

So you know, I'm not saying these, I, I don't know.

Chef AJ: 00:43:36

You know, this is not what caused it.

Chef AJ: 00:43:37

People, people really, I think discount often in our plant based world or just in the world in general the powerful effect that genetics has on you, on your life.

Chef AJ: 00:43:45

And you know, and of course genetics loads the gun and diet lifestyle can pull the trigger.

Chef AJ: 00:43:49

But I have a powerful strong family history of cancer having brother died of it, grandfather, uncle, father.

Chef AJ: 00:43:55

I'm the first female that I know of that has had it.

Chef AJ: 00:43:58

But you know, I, I that, I mean, I don't know why does anybody get anything?

Chef AJ: 00:44:03

But I do believe, yeah that that I have to do healing in what you might say is more the emotional, spiritual realm more than just the physical.

Chef AJ: 00:44:14

Because I feel until I do that I'm not going to heal.

Chef AJ: 00:44:17

And those are things like I never, that's why, that's why when I talk about the magic unicorn markets, I almost don't want to talk about it because I never dealt with any kind of feelings or emotion.

Chef AJ: 00:44:26

Like I, I always would sweep them under the carpet.

Chef AJ: 00:44:28

But they're saying for, for me to get better, this is something I have to do.

Chef AJ: 00:44:31

And it's funny because after food, the next F is forgiveness.

Chef AJ: 00:44:36

And I think the third person I called after poor Charles was like the last to know.

Chef AJ: 00:44:41

You know, it's like I'll tell him when I can.

Chef AJ: 00:44:43

So it was, it was my extent of comedy teacher Carrie.

Chef AJ: 00:44:46

Then it was Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:44:47

Goldham.

Chef AJ: 00:44:47

And then I called Chris work.

Chef AJ: 00:44:49

And I've been in his program.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:44:50

Chris, yeah.

Chef AJ: 00:44:51

So what he said to me, he said, you know, with the lifestyle isn't the problem here, you know, yeah, you can have more juices and more raw salads.

Chef AJ: 00:44:59

He goes, but your problem is you need to forgive everyone.

Chef AJ: 00:45:01

And so that has been the hardest of the Fs.

Chef AJ: 00:45:05

And the hardest thing is, and that's what is one of the things I'm working on now is forgiveness, you know, of people that have hurt me and things like that.

Chef AJ: 00:45:11

And in.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:45:13

Yeah, well, what I would, I would imagine so when you say it's the hardest, it's the hardest thing kind of, kind of squaring up and having the conversation with them, because I would imagine afterwards.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:45:23

Afterwards, I would imagine it feels great.

Chef AJ: 00:45:26

Yeah.

Chef AJ: 00:45:26

The thing is, is I, I'm willing to forgive, but I don't have a template.

Chef AJ: 00:45:30

And so I don't always know how to do it.

Chef AJ: 00:45:32

And so that's where, you know, everybody says, well, just forgive.

Chef AJ: 00:45:35

And one of the things that's helped.

Chef AJ: 00:45:36

Oh, this is the other thing a lot maybe some people, you know, it's so funny because I've asked people to pray for me and they're like, well, I'm an atheist.

Chef AJ: 00:45:43

And I'm like, okay, well then, you know, send me a joke.

Chef AJ: 00:45:45

That's the second best thing.

Chef AJ: 00:45:47

But one of the things I've, I have been doing is I going to talk to clergy, people of different faiths, and they always talk about forgiveness because in every religion there is something about it.

Chef AJ: 00:45:58

You know, in Judaism, there's Yom Kippur, you know, the Day of Atonement.

Chef AJ: 00:46:01

And one of the things that different clergy people have told me, and I've talked to a Catholic priest and a Presbyterian minister and an Adventist pastor, is that forgiveness doesn't mean reconciliation.

Chef AJ: 00:46:10

So the other, the idea is, is that just be.

Chef AJ: 00:46:13

If somebody has hurt you, especially in a, in a manner that you feel is unforgivable, you still need to forgive them for you, but that doesn't mean that they have be in your life.

Chef AJ: 00:46:23

And so I think what people understand is.

Chef AJ: 00:46:25

Don't understand is that forgiveness doesn't always have to mean reconciliation.

Chef AJ: 00:46:28

And so now that I understand that I can and hopefully move forward to things that, that involve just.

Chef AJ: 00:46:35

I guess I don't have a template.

Chef AJ: 00:46:36

And if there's an expert out there watching Unforgiveness, that can teach me, you know, what is it that you actually have to do to forgive somebody?

Chef AJ: 00:46:43

That's where I've been kind of stuck.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:46:45

Yeah.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:46:46

Yeah.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:46:46

Well, and I would imagine too, let's say you're, you're, you're, you're contacting somebody to forgive them, but they aren't aware that you hurt them or whatever.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:47:00

ut you really hurt me back in: 1983

Reb Esselstyn: 00:47:13

But I forgive you.

Chef AJ: 00:47:14

Yeah.

Chef AJ: 00:47:15

And I'm not even sure you have to even be in touch with the person.

Chef AJ: 00:47:17

And that's where the forgiveness work comes in.

Chef AJ: 00:47:19

I think people have suggested writing letters or just talking in your.

Chef AJ: 00:47:23

You know, it doesn't mean like you actually have to.

Chef AJ: 00:47:25

Especially if you were abused, you don't have to necessarily face the abuser.

Chef AJ: 00:47:28

And this is where I'm still a little bit weak in knowing exactly what people do to forgive other people.

Chef AJ: 00:47:35

And because people have forgiven the unforgivable in life, I mean, people have had far worse things happened to them.

Chef AJ: 00:47:40

To me, where people have forgiven some, you know, somebody murdered their child and they've forgiven them.

Chef AJ: 00:47:45

Now that doesn't mean that you, when you forgive them, you're.

Chef AJ: 00:47:48

This is the other thing.

Chef AJ: 00:47:49

Mistake people make.

Chef AJ: 00:47:49

People think if you forgive somebody, you're condoning their behavior.

Chef AJ: 00:47:53

It is not what it means.

Chef AJ: 00:47:54

It's.

Chef AJ: 00:47:54

And this is, this is where I'm learning to.

Chef AJ: 00:47:58

Well, I feel like I have to do that.

Chef AJ: 00:48:00

And you know, it's funny because there's a.

Chef AJ: 00:48:03

There was a book called Don't Sweat the small stuff.

Chef AJ: 00:48:05

And in the scheme of things, compared to cancer, it's all small stuff now.

Chef AJ: 00:48:09

So when I think about these, these, some of these perceived slights, and I say perceived slights because I'm a very sensitive person and some of these things that hurt me, the other person may not have even intended it.

Chef AJ: 00:48:19

Right.

Chef AJ: 00:48:20

But, but really it really is about just letting it go because it's.

Chef AJ: 00:48:23

So.

Chef AJ: 00:48:24

It's really irrelevant right now to, to my present and to my future healing.

Chef AJ: 00:48:29

But I'm just, you know, you really just have.

Chef AJ: 00:48:31

It's almost like until I accepted the fact that I actually could die, did I have the courage to actually, actually live?

Reb Esselstyn: 00:48:38

That's interesting.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:48:39

Can you say that one more time?

Chef AJ: 00:48:40

Yeah.

Chef AJ: 00:48:41

I finally had.

Chef AJ: 00:48:42

Until I accepted the fact that I actually die from lung cancer, that I had the courage to actually live.

Chef AJ: 00:48:49

And by, by living my life in a very meaningful way.

Chef AJ: 00:48:53

Not just going through life as many people do, but really like, you know, and it just sounds.

Chef AJ: 00:48:59

I feel like, like again, Emily in our Town.

Chef AJ: 00:49:01

I feel so trite saying that this.

Chef AJ: 00:49:04

But it is, it is different.

Chef AJ: 00:49:05

It's like you, you get a second chance.

Chef AJ: 00:49:07

It's kind of like people.

Chef AJ: 00:49:08

I, I've never met them, but I've watched.

Chef AJ: 00:49:10

I've been watching a lot of things about people with near death experiences that come back.

Chef AJ: 00:49:14

It's like, like you see the world completely different when you feel that your time is limited.

Chef AJ: 00:49:19

And this is a message.

Chef AJ: 00:49:20

Everybody's time is limited.

Chef AJ: 00:49:22

You just don't know it.

Chef AJ: 00:49:23

I have, I've been woken up.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:49:25

When, when do you feel like that you had that epiphany or that aha moment?

Reb Esselstyn: 00:49:31

Was it two years ago when you first diagnosed or was it more through and you're like, wow, this is great question.

Chef AJ: 00:49:38

It was when.

Chef AJ: 00:49:39

It was November 5th.

Chef AJ: 00:49:40

When, when, when you know, when they were saying things like, well, you know, you might want to get a death doula and you know, you know, like when people were like actually basically saying to me, you know, hey, you know, lady, you could really die now.

Chef AJ: 00:49:52

Like when it was stage one, it felt like I guess I just didn't want to accept it and I didn't want to deal with it.

Chef AJ: 00:49:57

And it just seemed like the tumor was small and like I didn't have any symptoms.

Chef AJ: 00:50:01

But yeah, when I, when I jumped up to stage three with a Met, then it was like that was a wake up call.

Chef AJ: 00:50:06

And I realized that I had to be willing to give up the life that I've been living to have the life that I'm supposed to be living now.

Chef AJ: 00:50:12

And it was like, it's just like, you know, putting on the, it's like just turning the, turning the, the, the, the, the, the cruiser around, you know, So I guess in a way it's a gift, but, you know, it doesn't always feel like it.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:50:25

So, so, so at this point, and I'm sure you've like thought about this till the cows come home, but you, is it fair to say that you could live another six months or you could live another 20 years?

Reb Esselstyn: 00:50:40

You just have no idea at this point?

Chef AJ: 00:50:42

I don't know.

Chef AJ: 00:50:43

That's why, you know that old adage, you know, in aa, a day at a time, that's even too long for me sometimes, because on days that are hard, that's too long.

Chef AJ: 00:50:51

So it's just, you know, this idea of the power of now is, it's, this is just, it's now.

Chef AJ: 00:50:58

And I don't want people to have cancer or any disease, but I hope they will get that message.

Chef AJ: 00:51:03

And if anything that, you know, you know, all, all the things in my life that I've tried to do to help the world in a positive way seem to pale in comparison by the message that I'm shouting now is that this is all you have, all of you.

Chef AJ: 00:51:18

And just, just you got to embrace it because it's.

Chef AJ: 00:51:22

Our time on Earth is very short anyway day.

Chef AJ: 00:51:24

But it's like when you actually know that your days are numbered.

Chef AJ: 00:51:27

You live your life in, I think, at least for me, in a more meaningful way.

Chef AJ: 00:51:31

And, you know, you don't do things you don't want to do anymore.

Chef AJ: 00:51:35

And I was doing a lot of that, you know, and sometimes resenting it just because, you know, people to like me and, you know, I got to make money and you don't have to do that anymore.

Chef AJ: 00:51:44

I mean, obviously people.

Chef AJ: 00:51:45

You obviously have to go to work and make money.

Chef AJ: 00:51:46

Most people, but it's, it's just like, like an epiphany.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:51:52

Yeah.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:51:53

Yeah.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:51:53

Well, it's funny, you know, I'm 61 and I've got, you know, my children now are 10, 15 and 17, an's 89, Essie's 91.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:52:06

You know, these people that have always been superheroes in my life are now mortals.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:52:13

Right?

Reb Esselstyn: 00:52:14

And so I.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:52:17

And it seems like every year goes by quicker and quicker the older I get.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:52:22

And so I have been thinking more and more about, like, what God, death, Like, what is death?

Reb Esselstyn: 00:52:29

And where do we go or where do we not go and what is that next, that next journey look like?

Reb Esselstyn: 00:52:38

And, you know.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:52:40

No, well, nobody really knows.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:52:43

Right.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:52:45

But, but, but I want you to know my grandfather, Barney Crile, who introduced the, the lumpectomy in the United States, his, ironically, his first wife, my mother's mother, died of breast cancer at the age of 55.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:53:05

And they wrote a book called More Than Booty.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:53:09

And one of the last paragraphs he wrote, wrote and.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:53:13

And I have this written, written out, AJ So I got it right.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:53:17

But he said, and this was during her memorial service, Life has been given and life has been taken away.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:53:24

Life and death are one even as the river and the sea are one.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:53:30

Death is only a horizon, and a horizon is but the limit of our sight.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:53:36

And I just think that's so beautiful and wonderful.

Chef AJ: 00:53:39

And you know what you said about the older you get, the faster it goes?

Chef AJ: 00:53:42

That's actually true because the older you get, however long you're going to live, is less time than what you've already lived.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:53:51

Yeah, big time.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:53:54

So I think, I think we got through your seven Fs.

Chef AJ: 00:53:57

I mean, friends and fun.

Chef AJ: 00:53:59

So we got through forgiveness, friends and fun, and only surrounding yourself with people that really are friends, you know, that can support you.

Chef AJ: 00:54:07

And having, I mean, maybe fun isn't that big of a deal to other people, but for me it is because it's just you, you have to have some lightness.

Chef AJ: 00:54:14

And that's why when I was first doing stand up comedy, as somebody that was diagnosed with cancer.

Chef AJ: 00:54:18

People were not laughing.

Chef AJ: 00:54:20

And that's why I need to explain to them that, no, I really want you to laugh not at me, but with me.

Chef AJ: 00:54:27

And I'm not making fun of cancer, by the way, or other people with cancer.

Chef AJ: 00:54:30

I'm making basic, basically fun of myself and, and, and what I've been going through and the ability to, to handle that.

Chef AJ: 00:54:36

I'm actually going to be performing it in Las Vegas, Labor Day weekend of next year at the Tuscany.

Chef AJ: 00:54:41

I was asked to host a plant based conference and I was just going to host it and then, and then they said, well, why don't you do be in the comedy night.

Chef AJ: 00:54:48

I'm like, okay, so now I gotta really work really hard on getting the best set possible because, well, you know.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:54:55

You, you are, you are so one of the things I've learned about you because I've known you now since about maybe 2,000, I don't know, four or five when you first got us over to your place for dinner, and Essie and myself, you really, aj, you're not only one of the most creative people that I know on the planet, you also are one of the hardest working and you would give literally like the shirt off your back to somebody that needs it.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:55:25

So you really an incredible human being.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:55:30

And why was I, why was I going there?

Reb Esselstyn: 00:55:32

What did you say that prompted me to say that?

Chef AJ: 00:55:34

I'm trying to remember about comedy and about fun and about laughing.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:55:39

Well, yes, but, but so you mentioned you're getting, you're getting ready to do that stand up bit in Las Vegas, right?

Reb Esselstyn: 00:55:46

And I can't even imagine how you're like writing things down and working so hard to get it just right.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:55:53

I mean, you, you wrote me a song that followed, you know, Flintstones Meet the Flintstones.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:55:59

You wrote one.

Chef AJ: 00:56:01

The Esselstands, they're a really skinny family from the town of Cleveland.

Chef AJ: 00:56:08

You will not believe how much they eat.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:56:13

But you also did one for me and the guys at Engine two when we first came out.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:56:17

Right?

Chef AJ: 00:56:18

I mean, anyway, I love doing song parodies.

Chef AJ: 00:56:21

I guess I'm a, I'm a frustrated comedy writer, so.

Chef AJ: 00:56:24

Yeah, it's.

Chef AJ: 00:56:25

But I love, I mean, I love when people have a sense of humor about this because I really feel that that's the only thing that's going to get me through personally.

Chef AJ: 00:56:32

And you see, I love when you know people that know now.

Chef AJ: 00:56:34

I love it when they say, how are you?

Chef AJ: 00:56:36

And I go, I got cancer.

Chef AJ: 00:56:38

How do you think I am?

Chef AJ: 00:56:40

You know, I do it like that, like in, in a funny voice.

Chef AJ: 00:56:42

But I have learned it's really helpful if people, instead of saying how are you?

Chef AJ: 00:56:46

If they say how are you today?

Chef AJ: 00:56:48

Because how are you?

Chef AJ: 00:56:50

Is like, what do you mean, how am I?

Chef AJ: 00:56:51

How am I?

Chef AJ: 00:56:52

Mentally, emotionally, physically, financially, spiritually?

Chef AJ: 00:56:54

But how are you right now?

Chef AJ: 00:56:56

Now that's a better question to ask somebody with a chronic disease because the big how are you?

Chef AJ: 00:57:00

Is usually a much longer, you know, and then I can just say, hey, you know, right now I'm feeling pretty good.

Chef AJ: 00:57:05

I'm not feeling anxious.

Chef AJ: 00:57:06

I have.

Chef AJ: 00:57:06

No.

Chef AJ: 00:57:07

So that's a, that's just a little tip for all you well meaning people out there instead of how are you?

Chef AJ: 00:57:12

How are you right now?

Reb Esselstyn: 00:57:14

Yeah, one of my, one of my very, very good friends, his, his mother just died about a week and a half ago.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:57:23

And I called him up and I didn't, I didn't ask him, you know, how you doing?

Reb Esselstyn: 00:57:26

But he said one of the things that's really hard is everybody asks, how you doing?

Reb Esselstyn: 00:57:30

And he's like, well, the truth of the matter is it's a really personal question and I really just can't answer that right now.

Chef AJ: 00:57:38

But it's tough because you don't want to alienate people for asking because, you know, they care.

Chef AJ: 00:57:43

That's why I said, just send me a joke.

Chef AJ: 00:57:45

Because if you send me a joke, I know you're thinking of me.

Chef AJ: 00:57:47

And then it opens up for me to be able to say, hey, you know, I'm really not doing well today.

Chef AJ: 00:57:51

But it's, you know, the lifelines are not just the people that I've recently met in cancer support groups.

Chef AJ: 00:57:56

There's certain people, and this is why the plant based community is the most incredible community.

Chef AJ: 00:58:03

Because the people that know, like, I mean, I have doctors and I don't even want to mention their name because some of them are like super famous that have given me their cell phone numbers and I say, you can text me anytime.

Chef AJ: 00:58:13

Kind of like what Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:58:14

McDougall was doing, doing when he was the only one that knew.

Chef AJ: 00:58:17

But there's a part of me that just feels very.

Chef AJ: 00:58:20

And again, I haven't addressed this.

Chef AJ: 00:58:21

This is my first time saying it out loud, but I thought, I feel guilty for having cancer.

Chef AJ: 00:58:26

I feel like I've let people down because it's like, you know, like.

Chef AJ: 00:58:31

Because my whole life has been about.

Chef AJ: 00:58:33

Not my whole life, but at least the last 47 years has been about advocating for the benefits, the health benefits of a plant based diet, which I think are many.

Chef AJ: 00:58:40

You know, you see all the time in your daily life how people have reversed heart disease and diabetes and autoimmune disease.

Chef AJ: 00:58:46

And yet for, I mean, I think part of the reason I didn't come out sooner is because I actually felt embarrassed.

Chef AJ: 00:58:53

And so one of the things that Dr.

Chef AJ: 00:58:56

Simran Malhotra told me, and she's a cancer previver, she's a plant based doctor, she said you have to look at the plant based diet is a seat belt and your exercise habits is a seat belt.

Chef AJ: 00:59:07

He goes, we are for seat belts, we should wear seat belts.

Chef AJ: 00:59:11

And seatbelts have saved a lot of lives.

Chef AJ: 00:59:14

But even with a seatbelt you can still get into a pretty bad car accident.

Chef AJ: 00:59:18

And so that, that really helped me a lot for just, you know, feeling guilty like I let the vegan community now because I got sick.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:59:26

Well, that's a great analogy.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:59:28

Let me ask you this because I'm sure you've taken a deep dive into lung cancer.

Reb Esselstyn: 00:59:33

Are there any misconceptions about, about lung cancer that you can talk about?

Chef AJ: 00:59:38

I haven't taken as deep of a dive as I probably should have because I sometimes get depressed when I see these things.

Chef AJ: 00:59:43

But that, well, first of all, it's on the rise.

Chef AJ: 00:59:46

We don't know why, but it's on the rise.

Chef AJ: 00:59:48

Especially on the rise with women and especially on the rise with people who don't smoke.

Chef AJ: 00:59:52

You know, like Andy Kaufman for example.

Chef AJ: 00:59:54

I have one, two, three vegan friends that are now in their 80s and 90s.

Chef AJ: 00:59:59

None of them had smoked and they all had, had lung cancer.

Chef AJ: 01:00:03

That's weird.

Chef AJ: 01:00:04

And I don't, you know, so I, you know, I, I think we live in a toxic world in general and we do our best to live in a clean environment and eat as healthily as possible, but the world itself is toxic.

Chef AJ: 01:00:17

And you know, you could, here's the other thing.

Chef AJ: 01:00:19

I could sit here all day and ask myself why, but it's not going to help me going forward.

Chef AJ: 01:00:25

You know, I, I, I need to get this gentleman on my show.

Chef AJ: 01:00:27

He was on, but not for the reason that I would have him on.

Chef AJ: 01:00:30

His name is Pete and Pete is an old dear friend of mine who's a quadriplegic.

Chef AJ: 01:00:34

And sometimes when I'm, I don't, I don't know if I should say this, I don't know if he's going to be watching.

Chef AJ: 01:00:38

But sometimes when I really feel down and hopeless, I think about how hard his life is.

Chef AJ: 01:00:43

A quadriplegic, right.

Chef AJ: 01:00:44

He's in his 50s now and you know, I mean right now I Still have complete function.

Chef AJ: 01:00:49

I can do everything I can, I can take care of myself.

Chef AJ: 01:00:52

And he needs, you know, AIDS just to do that, you know, just, just, just to get out of bed and just to go to the bathroom and just to get dressed.

Chef AJ: 01:00:58

And he's accomplished so much in his life.

Chef AJ: 01:01:00

He's written screenplays, he's, he's an accomplished, well known mouth painter, for example.

Chef AJ: 01:01:05

But one of the things he said when, as my friend, I know this, is that this happened to him very young.

Chef AJ: 01:01:11

I want to say 20, but you know, and he said that after he had the accident there were, he was in a hospital for a long time, a rehab.

Chef AJ: 01:01:20

And he said some of the people that were quadriplegics would take their wheelchairs out in the street and get run over on purpose because they could like that.

Chef AJ: 01:01:27

He said that he vowed after the accident to never ask himself never to look back.

Chef AJ: 01:01:33

You know, could have, should have what or what could I, you know, why did this happen?

Chef AJ: 01:01:36

And that's kind of what I'm doing because everybody wants to know, did she smoke?

Chef AJ: 01:01:39

Yes, I smoked very briefly my junior year of college.

Chef AJ: 01:01:43

But this kind of cancer they're saying isn't caused by smoking.

Chef AJ: 01:01:46

They're, they put smoking history insignificant, but it almost like Dr.

Chef AJ: 01:01:51

Golden Hammer says, it doesn't even matter at this point point because I can't go back unless you have a time machine rip.

Chef AJ: 01:01:56

Which would be awesome because there's so many things I can fix and so many people I can apologize to, like my mother, for example.

Chef AJ: 01:02:04

I can't, I can't go back anyway.

Chef AJ: 01:02:06

So what is the point of beating myself up or obsessing about why did this happen to me?

Chef AJ: 01:02:11

You know, I mean, you know, I know a lot of the people in the plant based world don't believe in God and you know, but I do talk to God as I know him or her and, you know, know.

Chef AJ: 01:02:20

And, and so I remember like one of the first things I, and I said this in my head.

Chef AJ: 01:02:24

I was like, why me?

Chef AJ: 01:02:25

And like, I swear to God, I heard a voice that said, why not you?

Chef AJ: 01:02:29

You know, I mean, so, you know, and, and again, I, as much as I don't want this, I think it would be much harder for me to watch my loved ones go through it like Charles and Bailey.

Chef AJ: 01:02:38

So he's the one I feel really bad about because he has to watch that.

Chef AJ: 01:02:41

And that's why humor, you know, I don't, I get sad, of course, and I cry, or as Dr.

Chef AJ: 01:02:47

Goldhammer says, I desalinate.

Chef AJ: 01:02:49

But I Tell you after, after going public, I cry a lot less and the tears are a lot shorter because having the support that I have now and just knowing that people care and that those that pray are praying and you know, again, you know, a journey, a journey, a burden shared is a burden in half.

Chef AJ: 01:03:08

And now I don't feel like I have to go through it alone.

Chef AJ: 01:03:10

And now I want to reach out to the people that do feel like they are going through it alone or that don't have the information or they can't call Dr.

Chef AJ: 01:03:17

Goldhammer on the phone.

Chef AJ: 01:03:19

You know, so again, it's really not about, you know, I'm not here to diagnose or treat or tell people what to do.

Chef AJ: 01:03:25

But I would mention that whatever you're going to do, live your best life regardless of what you're doing.

Chef AJ: 01:03:32

Because look, take a look at that.

Chef AJ: 01:03:34

The healing factors.

Chef AJ: 01:03:35

If you're familiar with the work of Dr.

Chef AJ: 01:03:36

Kelly Turner from Radical Recovery and Radical Hope, she is a PhD that wrote these books about, she studied people with cancer and how they had some healing factors in common, 10 of them, and one of them was regular exercise, which I do, changing their diet for a healthier diet, specifically cutting out processed food.

Chef AJ: 01:03:54

And those are things that, that do give people hope.

Chef AJ: 01:03:57

And the one that I was missing was of course, you know, the mental, emotional, spiritual for, you know, the one that had to do with, you know, the, the non physical, like it's very easy to eat kale and exercise, at least for me.

Chef AJ: 01:04:09

But to, you know, express my feelings and that kind of stuff, stuff is hard.

Chef AJ: 01:04:12

So I feel like that if I, if, if there is a reason that contributed or I got cancer had to do with that.

Chef AJ: 01:04:18

And so that's where I put my healing right now.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:04:21

Well, it's interesting because, you know, I did a little search, little research and you know, just discovered that so many of it is idiopathic.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:04:29

Mean they can't, they can't figure out what's caused, you know, this lung cancer.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:04:34

And to your point, all right, 12.5% have never smoked.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:04:39

Right.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:04:40

And, and so the number one cause, it seems, of lung cancer for non smokers is radon exposure, which are these radioactive.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:04:49

It's radioactive gas that accumulates, you know, in businesses or homes.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:04:55

And there's an actual test that you can take to see if you have it in your home.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:04:59

Secondhand smoke.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:05:01

I can't tell you how many of my friends growing up in the, you know, 60s, 70s, 80s had parents that smoked cigarettes.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:05:08

And then there's air pollution, obviously occupational exposure.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:05:14

Let Me ask you this.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:05:15

You know, you obviously work with a lot of fine flowers.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:05:18

Is that, is that something that.

Chef AJ: 01:05:20

I mean, I, I don't use a lot of flour in my recipes, though.

Chef AJ: 01:05:24

That's the thing.

Chef AJ: 01:05:24

I try to just use oats and I don't even grind them.

Chef AJ: 01:05:27

But I did live till the age of 13 with three adult smokers in the house, so that, that is something.

Chef AJ: 01:05:32

And you know, when I think about all the apart apartments I lived in in la, I know some of them actually had mold, not mine.

Chef AJ: 01:05:38

So, you know, again, I can't, I can't go back and just like, excuse me, I used to live here 20 years ago.

Chef AJ: 01:05:43

I've got this radon meter.

Chef AJ: 01:05:44

Can, Can I just check that kind of thing?

Chef AJ: 01:05:46

So you know that, that is.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:05:49

And then, and then the last thing was genetic mutations.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:05:52

Right?

Reb Esselstyn: 01:05:53

Just genetic factors.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:05:55

And so.

Chef AJ: 01:05:57

Just fascinating, you know, I mean, again, I almost wish we could have done this after the biopsy because there's still a part of me that's holding out hope that maybe it's not cancer, that it's some weird fungal infection or something.

Chef AJ: 01:06:08

But I do remember on my honeymoon, I got sick in Mexico.

Chef AJ: 01:06:12

We were on a cruise and I didn't drink the water, but we were at a restaurant and I ordered a club soda and not even thinking that there was ice in the glass.

Chef AJ: 01:06:22

And that is how I got the water.

Chef AJ: 01:06:23

I ended up in the hospital for a while with what they called a life threatening lung infection from drinking water in Mexico.

Chef AJ: 01:06:30

And I keep thinking, is that what set the stage?

Chef AJ: 01:06:32

And are these, are these tumors really, you know, scars?

Chef AJ: 01:06:36

So the other thing is, you know, these tumors were found incidentally.

Chef AJ: 01:06:39

I want people to know that, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't looking for, you know, a cancer diagnosis.

Chef AJ: 01:06:44

I had a misdiagnosis of interstitial cystitis.

Chef AJ: 01:06:48

my liver and my lung back in: 2022

Chef AJ: 01:06:59

They told me not to worry.

Chef AJ: 01:07:00

And then, but then eventually they.

Chef AJ: 01:07:02

They told me to worry.

Chef AJ: 01:07:04

Yeah.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:07:05

Yeah.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:07:06

How are you sleeping?

Chef AJ: 01:07:08

I am so lucky that I, for some reason, I think, because when you have the level of anxiety that I've had in my life, I spend so much all day both, both, both physically spin on the bike and metaphorically sp.

Chef AJ: 01:07:19

Spinning with, with the, you know, I'm like a little whirling.

Chef AJ: 01:07:22

Kind of like your mom that way.

Chef AJ: 01:07:23

Although I don't think she has anxiety.

Chef AJ: 01:07:24

But we're both kind of a little Bit of whirling dervishes, you know, just, you know, just like the Energizer bunnies that once I hit that pillow, I, I, I pretty much sleep through the night.

Chef AJ: 01:07:34

But lately I've been taking a supplement, not a drug.

Chef AJ: 01:07:37

The doctors want me to just make sure I get good sleep.

Chef AJ: 01:07:39

It's called magnesium glycinate.

Chef AJ: 01:07:40

It's just a little like, like, and, and now I sleep through the night without having to wake up and go to the bathroom.

Chef AJ: 01:07:46

So diet, sleep and exercise.

Chef AJ: 01:07:47

Dr.

Chef AJ: 01:07:48

Gold Hammer says prioritize those.

Chef AJ: 01:07:50

And I wish other people would prioritize those before they got sick because this is, you know, these things are so important.

Chef AJ: 01:07:56

But you know, I think it's just human nature that people often have to have this wake up call or, or hit rock bottom, you know, before they'll make a change, you know.

Chef AJ: 01:08:06

But it really, it is, it was kind of a slap in the face that maybe I'm not living my life to the best of the world then.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:08:14

Then that's the silver lining, right?

Reb Esselstyn: 01:08:17

So are you, what are your plans with Chef AJ Live?

Reb Esselstyn: 01:08:20

You going to continue doing that?

Chef AJ: 01:08:21

Yes.

Chef AJ: 01:08:21

So, so what happened is, is, you know, the doctors at True north said you're working too much because I would, I didn't get a day off for four years and three months.

Chef AJ: 01:08:28

And this was my own doing because, you know, being a workaholic, you know, when you're somebody that's really like, I was not in touch with my emotions or feelings.

Chef AJ: 01:08:36

Being a workaholic is a great thing because you make a lot of money and you don't really have to deal with your feelings.

Chef AJ: 01:08:40

I think that's why some of us do it.

Chef AJ: 01:08:42

But they said you can't keep working that much.

Chef AJ: 01:08:44

So after four years and three months of going live every day, on June 30, I did my last Daily Show.

Chef AJ: 01:08:50

So I've only been doing the show about once a week.

Chef AJ: 01:08:53

However, I really want to up it a little bit more because I'm just so excited about doing this series called Thriving in the Face of Cancer.

Chef AJ: 01:08:59

Having some of the plant based doctors on.

Chef AJ: 01:09:01

And again, it's not a series that we're going to tell you this is what you do if you have cancer, because that's deeply personal and I'm not even sure that what one doctor says might be right in general or for you.

Chef AJ: 01:09:13

But it's more about giving people hope, talking to the doctors that have seen some of their patients get better from cancer.

Chef AJ: 01:09:19

What they did also talking to people that are survivors that to Me is, like, crucial.

Chef AJ: 01:09:24

You need to know that no matter how.

Chef AJ: 01:09:27

Hey, one of the guys I'm going to have on the show, he's the wife of a doctor, stage four pancreatic cancer, still alive years later.

Chef AJ: 01:09:35

You know, that's the one that people say it's a death sentence.

Chef AJ: 01:09:37

My brother died three months after diagnosis from pancreatic cancer.

Chef AJ: 01:09:41

So, you know, I think about Louise Hay says all incurable means is that nobody that we know so far has been cured.

Chef AJ: 01:09:47

So don't let that.

Chef AJ: 01:09:48

Don't let your diagnosis be your destiny.

Chef AJ: 01:09:51

That is my message.

Chef AJ: 01:09:52

Your diagnosis is not your destiny.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:09:55

Yeah.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:09:55

Yeah.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:09:56

Well, I want you to know, aj, how much I love you, how much I know that the Plan Strong audience loves you.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:10:06

Thank you for sharing this very personal bit of information with us.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:10:13

And I want you to know how much I'm rooting for you.

Chef AJ: 01:10:16

Oh, thank you.

Chef AJ: 01:10:17

I really appreciate it.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:10:18

Yeah.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:10:23

Hey, can you hit me with a Plan Strong fist bump on the way out.

Chef AJ: 01:10:25

Boom.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:10:28

Chef aj, thank you for sharing your time and your heart with us.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:10:33

We are with you and support you every step of the way.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:10:37

Your strength and vulnerability is truly awe inspiring, and I know it will help others in their own personal journeys through illness.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:10:46

I would encourage you to follow Chef AJ's Instagram and YouTube channels, and I'll make sure to put those links in today's show notes to make it easy for you.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:10:55

For you.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:10:55

Let's continue to shower her with our love, support, and humor, because human connection is the best medicine.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:11:05

Thanks so much for listening and always, always keep it Plan Strong.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:11:12

The Plan Strong podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Lori Kordowich, and Amy Mackey.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:11:19

If you like what you hear, do us a favor and share the show with your friends and loved ones.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:11:25

You can always leave a five star rating and review on Apple podcasts or Spotify.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:11:30

And while you're there, make sure to hit that follow button so that you never miss an episode.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:11:37

As always, this and every episode is dedicated to my parents, Dr.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:11:42

Caldwell B.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:11:43

Esselstyn Jr.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:11:44

And Ann Krile Esselstyn.

Reb Esselstyn: 01:11:47

Thanks so much for listening.

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