Shownotes
In this episode, Kev and Tracey invite Tracy Hannigan, an expert on insomnia, to discuss the importance of sleep and its impact on driving confidence.
We chat about:
- The difference between tiredness and sleepiness
- The bidirectional relationship between anxiety and sleep
- Strategies to gradually shift sleep patterns and minimise anxiety before your driving test
While listening to this episode, ask yourself:
- Are you an early bird or a night owl and how has this affected your driving?
- How do you feel if you haven’t been sleeping well?
- If you’ve experience unexplained driving anxiety how did you sleep the night before?
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Transcripts
Before this episode starts, I need to jump in with a very quick apology.
Speaker:There's a few echoes in this episode, but we spoke to Tracy.
Speaker:All three of us thought that this was a great episode that perhaps wouldn't
Speaker:come across in quite the same way.
Speaker:We rerecorded it.
Speaker:So hopefully you'll forgive us for some of the echoey bits and
Speaker:still enjoy the information anyway.
Speaker:in this episode, we're delighted to be welcoming on Tracy Hannigan,
Speaker:the sleep coach, and Tracy specializes in adult insomnia.
Speaker:Welcome Tracy.
Speaker:Hey, thank you for having me on.
Speaker:I'm really excited to be here.
Speaker:We are as well because this is something a bit new, bit different.
Speaker:It's um, cuz we all know that sleep affects us, but we also wanted to
Speaker:find out from an expert about does sleep affect the way that we drive?
Speaker:And could it be causing anxiety and stress?
Speaker:Yeah, so some of the context around that is that we hear from people
Speaker:who have been driving for years.
Speaker:Perfectly happy driving.
Speaker:Don't really give it a thought.
Speaker:And then all of a sudden, and they describe it as out of blue, they
Speaker:experience some driving anxiety and they dunno where it's come from.
Speaker:They can't fit it into a natural pigeon hole.
Speaker:They, they sort of say, it's not like I had an accident.
Speaker:It's not like something happened.
Speaker:I just had it bam outta the blue.
Speaker:And it's almost like a mystery, and we just are interested in exploring some
Speaker:of the possible potential contributing factors, and we think sleep might be
Speaker:one of those contributing factors.
Speaker:Yeah, I could definitely see how there would be a relationship.
Speaker:There's a, there's actually a bidirectional relationship
Speaker:between anxiety and sleep.
Speaker:And when people are having difficulty with their sleep, specifically, if
Speaker:it's insomnia related, their um, psychological arousal is higher.
Speaker:Their safety system, their radar is switched on.
Speaker:It's just a little bit more sensitive and it's very adaptive actually, but
Speaker:it becomes a bit of a vicious circle.
Speaker:So it's adaptive in the sense that.
Speaker:If we were, um, walking across the, the Masai chasing wilderbeast
Speaker:all day and we're very, very tired and we climb into a cave to sleep.
Speaker:We don't want our tiredness running the show if a lion appears, right?
Speaker:So if we we're anxious and we perceive ourselves under, under threat,
Speaker:it becomes difficult to sleep.
Speaker:If we then start worrying about our sleep, we start sleeping even worse.
Speaker:So it becomes a bit of a vicious circle in that way.
Speaker:But if, if people are sleeping poorly, that hypervigilance, that hyper
Speaker:arousal, that sensitivity to threat.
Speaker:Is actually a 24/ 7 phenomenon, so it can affect other things in people's lives.
Speaker:The unconscious scanning that people do when they're driving for things
Speaker:that don't fit the pattern like much too quickly or that thing just
Speaker:jumped out between, those cars are much more sensitive to those inputs.
Speaker:We might not necessarily react to them appropriately.
Speaker:Sometimes a bit, bit too much, a bit too little, but the safety
Speaker:radar is that much more keyed up.
Speaker:And so when you're in a situation where you are constantly having to
Speaker:be scanning threats, you could easily see how not sleeping could become
Speaker:paired with being anxious in the car.
Speaker:Anxious.
Speaker:That makes so much sense.
Speaker:Yeah, that doesn't it really?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So if you had a bad night's sleep, maybe you were woken up by the children or
Speaker:the grandchildren in, or if you suffer within insomnia and have, poor sleep
Speaker:patterns, then you are more on high alert.
Speaker:Yeah, some of the things that our brain becomes really good at when we don't
Speaker:sleep well, we always talk about the things that our brain becomes bad at.
Speaker:But there are things that we do get good at, and one is, focusing
Speaker:on the negative, focusing on threatening things, perseverating
Speaker:about things, the fixating on them.
Speaker:That's, again, that's simply our safety radar, being looking for danger.
Speaker:You know, we've become really good at looking for danger, but unfortunately this
Speaker:creates a little bit of a selection bias.
Speaker:So then we start seeing all of the negative things and then they start
Speaker:piling up and piling up, piling up, and we become, less able to kind of
Speaker:think laterally and think creatively.
Speaker:And so you can see how all of those things could create issues
Speaker:for people's driving as well.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So not only might it be that you are on high alert for danger on the road
Speaker:and other cars, other drivers, but actually you're gonna be more likely
Speaker:to be having negative thoughts about maybe other things in your life.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:So you're gonna be focusing more on stressful areas of your life cause you
Speaker:had a lack of sleep because you're tired.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And then of course you then become more anxious and worried.
Speaker:Um, you might make poorer decisions.
Speaker:Uh, we do have slower reaction times when we don't sleep well.
Speaker:So all of these things can feed into, um, a scenario where it
Speaker:becomes a bit of a vicious circle.
Speaker:You know, you, it's normal to not sleep well.
Speaker:If we are anxious, it actually is a sign that our sleep system is working
Speaker:exactly the way that it should.
Speaker:It's just highly inconvenient when, especially when it goes, when it
Speaker:goes on for a long time and becomes self-perpetuating, kind of keeps
Speaker:feeding itself by doing exactly that.
Speaker:We start focusing on the arguments with the spouse and the things
Speaker:that are going wrong, and that just pour fuel on the fire.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So it's a real vicious circle almost.
Speaker:See, I'm, I'm thinking that as, as a driver myself, And I can put
Speaker:myself back into that situation.
Speaker:You've just described it when we were younger a few years ago, we were probably
Speaker:living on less sleep than we are now.
Speaker:And what that was happening was we knew we were tired.
Speaker:So I was telling myself, right, I'm tired.
Speaker:So what I need to do is to, God, I need to do this, I need to
Speaker:do this, and I need to do this.
Speaker:And it is that part of actually knowing that you are tired,
Speaker:you start overthinking.
Speaker:Absolutely, you become even more protective of yourself.
Speaker:You know, um, there are some scenarios where you, if you're actually
Speaker:really sleepy, particularly in a driving context, you need to take
Speaker:a nap or pull over and keep kind of the safety, safety piece first.
Speaker:Um, but y you're absolutely right.
Speaker:We've become, um, protective.
Speaker:And we, we, when we are feeling vulnerable, because we're perceiving
Speaker:all of this threat in our life, we're focusing all these negative things,
Speaker:our brain goes into overdrive to try to control these situations cuz we
Speaker:think that it's gonna make us safer.
Speaker:Um, so it, it doesn't usually, depending on the context in the, in the situation,
Speaker:sometimes that just makes things worse.
Speaker:But, um, Yeah, when people become, because of my specialty is insomnia
Speaker:in particular, when people become when they perceive the sleeplessness
Speaker:as a threat, that creates problems.
Speaker:It's good to be conscious of our sleep and to want to get good sleep, but over
Speaker:focusing on, I have to fix my sleep, I have to do this, I have to do that.
Speaker:Like the list that you were kind of outlining, that only makes things worse.
Speaker:How dangerous is that then?
Speaker:That's, is that It's actually really dangerous, isn't it?
Speaker:Knowing that you are tired but still choosing to drive as well?
Speaker:Especially if the, if it's sleepiness, sleepiness is the,
Speaker:is obviously the, the risk.
Speaker:Long, long drives and, and sleeping, um, or don't mix well together.
Speaker:You don't wanna be trying to do the two at the same time.
Speaker:And it usually happens on accident.
Speaker:You know, nobody intends to fall asleep with the wheel, but
Speaker:it does happen, unfortunately.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So what, for anybody listening, is there a distinction?
Speaker:Tiredness, sleepiness?
Speaker:I think I can feel what the difference is.
Speaker:But how would you describe the difference between tiredness and sleepiness?
Speaker:So if somebody is tired and fatigued, they may or may not fall asleep.
Speaker:If somebody is sleepy, they will fall asleep.
Speaker:So that's, that is the main difference.
Speaker:Sometimes when people have longstanding insomnia, they have such high arousal
Speaker:that that sleepy feeling never comes.
Speaker:And people will sometimes say to me, I haven't felt sleepy in a long time,
Speaker:but their fatigue may start manifesting sleepiness in a different way.
Speaker:So people may start holding their heads or they may start doing
Speaker:things with their body that signal that actually sleepiness is there.
Speaker:It's just showing itself a little bit differently.
Speaker:But the biggest difference for most people is.
Speaker:Are you ready to fall asleep or do you just feel really like you've
Speaker:done three workouts today and you've been working in the garden and
Speaker:you've, you've been up a long time.
Speaker:That's the difference.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So that Tired hired, but wired,
Speaker:oh, tired and wired is how I describe actually how people feel when they
Speaker:have insomnia, uh, particularly during the day, but also also at night.
Speaker:That that wired piece of it means that the sleepiness can't
Speaker:come and that is the arousal.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:No, that makes sense.
Speaker:And actually, uh, you see that in your children sometimes
Speaker:when they get overtired.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And they can't fall asleep.
Speaker:And that's when they are sort of crying uncontrollably because they're so tired.
Speaker:Are you like, just go to sleep.
Speaker:But they can't because they're stressed and they're wired.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And I recognize that in myself.
Speaker:So there are times when I'll say, I'm really tired, but I can't go to bed yet.
Speaker:I need to wind down.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:We've all, we've all been in experiences that are, are really stressful and you.
Speaker:Are, are awake for a long time, sometimes for days, depending on
Speaker:what's kind of going on in life.
Speaker:And there's just no chance that sleep is going to happen.
Speaker:Cause the stress level is just really high.
Speaker:I mean, if you use a, an example is, um, you know, suddenly
Speaker:finding out about a bereavement.
Speaker:You know, the stress levels and the upset is so high.
Speaker:Most people who have a close bereavement do not sleep for a few days at least.
Speaker:Um, just because this, there's no chance for that sleepy feeling to come in.
Speaker:And is this um, an age related, or, the reason I'm saying that cuz a
Speaker:lot of people that I teach to drive.
Speaker:17 to 22 is, is sort of like my main demographic of people that I
Speaker:teach, but they're very different to people that are in their late
Speaker:twenties and thirties because of life.
Speaker:Is, is different.
Speaker:Do the people, are they more tired when they're younger?
Speaker:17 to 22?
Speaker:Are they because of the lifestyle or was it.
Speaker:What you've explained to people that are tired and wired because there's so much
Speaker:going on, is, is there a difference there?
Speaker:So the biggest difference between that day, age demographic and the
Speaker:rest of us, cause I'm definitely not in that age demographic anymore.
Speaker:Um, the, the biggest difference is that young people, when they are
Speaker:going through, um, kind of second stages of puberty, their secondary
Speaker:sex characteristics are developing.
Speaker:Their brain is changing.
Speaker:They actually experience a change in their circadian rhythm, though
Speaker:the, the classic teenager who can't get out of bed in the morning and
Speaker:stays up all night, um, there's actually a biological reason for that.
Speaker:So if I went into the next room to wake up my son right now, he would
Speaker:be very sleepy because his brain is saying it's the middle of the night.
Speaker:And that's simply his biology.
Speaker:Now some people stay, uh, in what we call like that delayed phase, and
Speaker:they are just the classic night owls.
Speaker:Many become self-employed because it works better for
Speaker:them than having a nine to five.
Speaker:So if you are having lessons with people in that demographic in the morning,
Speaker:it's going to be more challenging them than if those lessons were
Speaker:being held in the late afternoon.
Speaker:The late afternoon is when they are starting to wake up and get moving.
Speaker:It's a little bit like hour 10, 25 in the morning to them at about
Speaker:four o'clock in the afternoon.
Speaker:And, and that is so true with less.
Speaker:I know some people it's not, it's not everybody is like this, you know,
Speaker:with generalizing, but it's, it's very true in the concentration levels.
Speaker:And the, I suppose, the engagement in the lessons as well.
Speaker:You know, people who are a nine o'clock lesson in the morning that
Speaker:are 17, 18, they probably struggle more because of they're tired.
Speaker:Their, their body is tired.
Speaker:Yes, they could be tired because they're not allowing themselves enough sleep.
Speaker:They could be tired because their body is telling them that
Speaker:it's the middle of the night.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's the opposite of myself.
Speaker:I'm very much an early bird.
Speaker:I would be the one that would want the 8:00 AM appointment, but I would never
Speaker:book anything that required concentration at four o'clock in the afternoon.
Speaker:Ooh.
Speaker:And so what I'm thinking there is in terms of knowing yourself, Knowing
Speaker:your sleep patterns, knowing when you function best, it actually makes sense.
Speaker:And I know this isn't easy with driving lessons because you have to
Speaker:get what you can take at the moment.
Speaker:Uh, finding an instructor and finding a slot.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:You sort of have to fit in, but wherever possible, trying to book your driving
Speaker:lessons, learning new skills, something like learning to drive at a time when.
Speaker:That's best suited to you, your, your sleep patterns and
Speaker:your concentration levels.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Because you're gonna be less stressed.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:You're going to feel, you're going to feel more capable.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You're going to be able to engage more.
Speaker:It's going to mean more to you.
Speaker:You're gonna have easier time with the muscle memory piece.
Speaker:Kind of starting to take a role in things.
Speaker:If you feel better, you're gonna feel more confident and you're gonna
Speaker:just do better in, in the lessons and be able to get more outta them.
Speaker:And I think that actually all of us driving or not in life could learn a
Speaker:lot from this because we're better at certain things at different times of day.
Speaker:I'm better at creative things in the morning and I can do
Speaker:brainless admin in the afternoon.
Speaker:That works really well for me.
Speaker:Some people are the exact opposite, but if you know that you can attempt
Speaker:to schedule your, your life around where your strongest suit is,
Speaker:depending on what you have to do.
Speaker:That could be fantastic, couldn't it?
Speaker:Just being able to fit things in around when you know you are
Speaker:at your best and therefore you have more belief in your ability.
Speaker:And that could make a really big difference to how much learning
Speaker:happens and how successful it is.
Speaker:And it leads to less procrastination too.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So you end up getting more time and you end up being more productive,
Speaker:uh, with the time that you do have and things don't take as long.
Speaker:I've got so many questions.
Speaker:I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm taking, my brain is taking a bit of a
Speaker:leap pig, so I might be wrong.
Speaker:I might be going off track, but what I'm also thinking is that if somebody learnt
Speaker:drive 10 years ago at a timer the day.
Speaker:Where it didn't suit them.
Speaker:They were never at the performing at their best, and therefore they always left
Speaker:with these feelings that their driving wasn't great and that driving wasn't
Speaker:enjoyable, but then leads on to how they feel about driving later on down the line.
Speaker:It could definitely affect the mindset that they, that
Speaker:they carry forward with them.
Speaker:Um, particularly because there's no, usually people don't offer
Speaker:themselves an opportunity for that mindset to be changed and challenged.
Speaker:Mindset and the language we use around things in our life.
Speaker:Driving is a great example.
Speaker:Using my example, I tell myself I'm not a driver because I haven't
Speaker:driven in a very, very long time.
Speaker:Now this doesn't help me.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:The next time I have to drive, I'm going to be a nervous wreck, right?
Speaker:That is my mindset issue around it.
Speaker:But these kinds of mindset issues affect everything in our life.
Speaker:Yeah, and don't forget, as we've said when we were in contact earlier, at
Speaker:some point in the future, if you want to work on it, Tracy, you know where we're,
Speaker:I know exactly where I'm going to go.
Speaker:I did sit in the car the other day and learn where all the buttons were,
Speaker:so it's step in the right direction.
Speaker:I'll be fine once I actually start driving, it's just all in my head.
Speaker:Literally all in my head.
Speaker:I've gotta go back to, I've gotta go back to some of the questions, but if I was
Speaker:a, a 17, 18 year old, is there an ideal amount of sleep that I should be having?
Speaker:At that age, the typical amount of sleep that people get is really, it's
Speaker:tricky to know cuz a lot of teenagers deprive themselves of sleep because
Speaker:they're wanting to be up doing things.
Speaker:Um, yeah.
Speaker:And they also, because of school demands, they usually having to get up earlier
Speaker:than they would normally like, but you're looking at kind of a, a standard
Speaker:range of like eight, nine hours is, I would say is a, is a good number.
Speaker:They do need a little bit more sleep than us because they are.
Speaker:Developing.
Speaker:There's a lot going on.
Speaker:There's a lot to process.
Speaker:Most teenagers will sleep more than that, but certainly I wouldn't suggest
Speaker:that they try to get less than that.
Speaker:Most of them procrastinate around sleep pretty heavily.
Speaker:I live with two of them that do that.
Speaker:The amount of sleep that anybody needs is it's very individually determined.
Speaker:This is why I'm hesitant to kinda like pin a number on it.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Um, the amount of sleep that a person needs is.
Speaker:Whatever number allows 'em to fall asleep within 15 or 20 minutes, but no faster
Speaker:than five minutes to wake up a couple of times in the night long enough to remember
Speaker:it, but to fall back to sleep and to wake up when they need to wake up with the
Speaker:energy that they need to do the things that they need to do during the day.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So for some people, that's a lower number.
Speaker:For some people, that's a higher number.
Speaker:And when you start getting to the near adult ages, it starts to
Speaker:fall more into that, that pattern.
Speaker:But I wouldn't expect, , a 17 year old to have an issue if
Speaker:they are sleeping 10 hours a day.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And I think it's really important for parents to know not to be constantly
Speaker:waking your teenagers up because you are depriving them of sleep in the end.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yes, I've had a number of people come to me to talk to me about their
Speaker:teenagers, and the, the concern that everybody has is, you know, my 16 year
Speaker:old goes up to bed at nine o'clock and can't fall asleep for three hours.
Speaker:And the thing that is, that is off in that scenario is the
Speaker:expectation that that 16 year old should fall asleep at nine o'clock.
Speaker:Not that the teenager is not sleeping at nine o'clock.
Speaker:And so this can create a lot of stress and anxiety around sleep, which
Speaker:can then worsen somebody's sleep.
Speaker:They think they have a problem and they're doing lots and lots of things to
Speaker:try to fix this perceived sleep problem and become anxious about going to bed.
Speaker:It's just gonna make things worse.
Speaker:And this is, this is probably more related to me, I think, but.
Speaker:I like power naps in the afternoon.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Um, and then I think it recharges me, you know, if I have a 10,
Speaker:15 minute nap and then I can get up again and then I'll go again.
Speaker:Cause it's mm-hmm.
Speaker:You know, like you said earlier in the afternoon, it's those, you know, I'm
Speaker:creative in the morning, in the afternoon.
Speaker:I find the power naps actually help me.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:They can take the edge of the sleepiness right off.
Speaker:How long should that nap last because I've heard varying different reports on this.
Speaker:I mean, I love my little 10, 15 minutes, but if it goes to half
Speaker:hour, I quite enjoy that as well.
Speaker:Is is there an ideal way for a power nap in lunchtime early afternoon?
Speaker:I like a nap length that's in the 20 minute range.
Speaker:Um, we have a little bit of a joke in the house.
Speaker:That 22 minutes is a perfect number for us because we like that number.
Speaker:The issue is, if you nap too long, and this has probably happened to most,
Speaker:everybody who decides they're gonna take a 15 minute nap and they end up sleeping
Speaker:for over an hour, you often wake up feeling worse than when you, when you
Speaker:wanted to take the nap in the first place.
Speaker:Um, and the other issue is if you take too long of a nap, it's going to use
Speaker:up some of your sleep drive and affect your sleep, um, in subsequent nights.
Speaker:And so that's another reason to keep naps short, especially if you already
Speaker:have issues with sleep at night.
Speaker:You generally advise not napping unless it's for safety reasons, but to keep
Speaker:them short and early in the day so that you have lots more hours before
Speaker:bedtime to build up more sleep drive and kind of, um, maximize your ability to.
Speaker:Fall asleep and stay asleep.
Speaker:Now I'm almost picturing visualizing sort of like topping up my
Speaker:sleepiness in a pot sort of thing.
Speaker:So I need my pot to be full of sleepiness, ready to go to sleep at night.
Speaker:Is that, have I pictured that right?
Speaker:It's a really, that's a really good way to picture it.
Speaker:I use the balloon analogy.
Speaker:When we wake up after a full night's sleep, we have an empty balloon.
Speaker:And as we are awake during the day and as we are physically active, those are the
Speaker:only two things that fill that balloon.
Speaker:The balloon gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and you need a big
Speaker:balloon in order to be able to sleep.
Speaker:And then when you fall asleep, the balloon begins to empty.
Speaker:So if you take a big nap in the afternoon, you're letting somebody air out around.
Speaker:Yeah, I like that.
Speaker:And this is where the circadian system plays a role here, since we're talking
Speaker:about different age demographics, because they start building their balloon
Speaker:just at a different time than ours.
Speaker:And the circadian system is in charge of when does it stop
Speaker:taking us away during the day.
Speaker:So the circadian system doesn't tell us to sleep.
Speaker:It counteracts the buildup of that sleep drive.
Speaker:If we didn't have it, we would wake up in the morning with 100%
Speaker:energy and then we would slowly get sleepier throughout the day.
Speaker:But what happens in reality is we're awake and then we kind of hit this
Speaker:wall where the sleepiness comes.
Speaker:And that is when our circadian system has stopped sending alerting
Speaker:signals to the brain to say, stay awake, stay awake, stay awake.
Speaker:So that just happens at different times for different people.
Speaker:And in that demographic, more often than not, it's uh, it doesn't
Speaker:kick in until the wee hours.
Speaker:So, just for people that don't know, what is a circadian rhythm?
Speaker:The circadian rhythm is one.
Speaker:Uh, when we're talking about sleep is one of many, many biological, clocks in
Speaker:our body and in our brain, they usually anchored around key survival issues
Speaker:like access to light and access to food.
Speaker:So the circadian system with, with regards to sleep.
Speaker:Um, and the whole sleep system starting in the morning when you
Speaker:wake up is anchored and tied to primarily light, but also eating and
Speaker:other hormonal and chemical systems.
Speaker:We have these 24, 25 hour systems in us that operate all
Speaker:different kinds of functions.
Speaker:And when we're talking about the circadian system, it is the one
Speaker:that is tied to when we fall asleep.
Speaker:Brilliant.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Lovely.
Speaker:There was something you mentioned a little bit earlier that I wrote down, and you
Speaker:were saying that when people are that tired but wired when the sleepiness isn't
Speaker:there, but the fatigue is, and you said that sometimes it comes out in different
Speaker:ways, and one of the ways you describe was somebody lean their head on their hand,
Speaker:so putting their head in their hand and rest in their head, supporting their head.
Speaker:And that made me think sometimes you see people driving like that, don't you?
Speaker:Sometimes you see people with their, their elbow on the window and their
Speaker:head in their hand and then holding the steering wheel the other way.
Speaker:So I'm thinking that's something to avoid.
Speaker:That could be a, a little clue there that that driver is tired and the sleepiness
Speaker:is maybe coming out in a different way.
Speaker:Potentially.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And it also could be that even if they're not tired, they're
Speaker:bored perhaps in the car.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And so when we're bored, we pay less attention to the things
Speaker:that we need to pay attention to.
Speaker:We tune out.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:If, if you are doing the same route, you know, if you drive into
Speaker:work every day, the same time, probably seeing the same cars.
Speaker:You know, you, but you, you do zone out, don't you?
Speaker:Because it's, these sort of things happen and, and you just go with the motion.
Speaker:It's almost like the car knows the way Yeah.
Speaker:And it drives itself.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But of course when you're in that and yes, you're, yeah, you're right.
Speaker:It could be just being bored, just being disinterested.
Speaker:And then if something does happen, you are gonna get a real jolt because you
Speaker:weren't paying as much attention as you should have been, and that in itself
Speaker:can trigger off all sorts of things.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:You know, you don't see the car coming until it is much
Speaker:too close to you, for example.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Because you're staring off somewhere, zoned out, letting the car do the driving.
Speaker:The boredom's sleepiness.
Speaker:They're related, aren't they?
Speaker:You, you shut down a little bit.
Speaker:Sleepiness, you start to slow down a bit.
Speaker:Yeah, and, and actually anything that, if we have enough sleep drive built
Speaker:up and our arousal is low, that is a prime opportunity for sleep to come.
Speaker:Arousal can be low because we're doing something we really enjoy.
Speaker:It also could be that we are also bored.
Speaker:Um, but I do encourage people if, if, for example, with wind down routines at night.
Speaker:To do things that you enjoy doing rather than to try to bore yourself to sleep.
Speaker:Because most people, if they, if they don't have insomnia, for example,
Speaker:will hit that wall where they get sleepy and then they will go to sleep.
Speaker:So, why not do something that you enjoy with the time that you have on this
Speaker:earth, um, and do something that you like instead of trying to do things
Speaker:specifically to bore yourself to sleep.
Speaker:So, I've got a question.
Speaker:Go for it.
Speaker:I'm a 17, 18 year old learner who's got their test at
Speaker:eight o'clock in the morning.
Speaker:I know probably that that person won't sleep the night before because they've
Speaker:got to think about, getting up in the morning and all they think about is
Speaker:getting up in the morning so they're not thinking of sleep What tips are there?
Speaker:If there are any tips, I dunno, for that person for the night
Speaker:before their test, right?
Speaker:So I would actually think out a little bit further in advance, especially for that
Speaker:group of people in that demographic who are going to be in the middle of the night
Speaker:at eight o'clock in the morning, right?
Speaker:So, With that particular scenario, I would want to ensure that in the week running up
Speaker:to the, the test, that anything possible that is possible to put into place, we
Speaker:can talk about those sorts of things.
Speaker:Um, get put into place so that they can begin to sort of start to shift
Speaker:themselves so that that 8:00 AM is closer to a civilized time for them.
Speaker:They could even do this weeks in advance, for example, paying extra
Speaker:attention to not playing video games until two o'clock in the morning,
Speaker:particularly if there's lots of blue light and doing other stimulating things.
Speaker:Changing the evening routine so that there's a little bit more opportunity
Speaker:for that boredom to kick in.
Speaker:Um, if you imagine a teenager who has been grounded for something and they're
Speaker:not, don't have access to their phone or their computer, what do they do?
Speaker:They don't know what to do with themselves, so they sleep.
Speaker:So, uh, but, but setting it up as a positive thing a little bit earlier.
Speaker:Each night over the span of, of a week or two before the test just to ensure
Speaker:that there's enough sleep, maintained and make it a little bit easier for
Speaker:them to get up earlier in the morning.
Speaker:And I would combine that with getting up earlier in the morning in the run up to
Speaker:the exam so that it's not such a shock.
Speaker:Whether the person, teenager or not is worried about getting up in the morning
Speaker:or they're worried about the exam.
Speaker:Having the mindset that if, if they are nervous, which would be a completely
Speaker:normal thing to, to be, uh, feeling in the night before the exam, to do
Speaker:what we can to reframe that feeling.
Speaker:So, What does that feeling feel like?
Speaker:Feels like your heart could be racing.
Speaker:Feels like you're thinking of lots of things.
Speaker:Might have butterflies in your stomach.
Speaker:We actually don't do ourselves any favors by saying, oh my gosh, I'm so nervous.
Speaker:I'm so nervous.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Because that's like somebody's about to push me off the end of the plank, right?
Speaker:Those same exact physical feelings.
Speaker:Um, and our tendency for our thoughts to race also happen
Speaker:when we're really excited.
Speaker:So any nerves the night before, I would really kind of encourage
Speaker:my, my young person in my life to reframe them as excitement.
Speaker:You've had amazing lessons through you guys.
Speaker:They've built their confidence.
Speaker:Their body knows what to do.
Speaker:Their brain knows what all the road signs mean.
Speaker:They're gonna smash it out of the park.
Speaker:And that is what the feeling is.
Speaker:So reframing that feeling, um, going to bed as early as possible.
Speaker:Usually that's not the advice for people within insomnia, but just to make sure
Speaker:that they can get as much sleep as possible because the sleep's gonna be
Speaker:disrupted because of the anxiousness.
Speaker:Yeah, I think those two things further ahead than the night before,
Speaker:and then really working on reframing those feelings so that the confidence
Speaker:can be there as much as possible.
Speaker:Um, and that they set themselves up for maximum sleep the night before,
Speaker:so that they are less likely to fear, like performing poorly, especially if
Speaker:we don't sleep well the night before.
Speaker:We wake up in the morning and we go, oh my goodness, I didn't sleep last night.
Speaker:This is gonna be a disaster.
Speaker:And all that stuff starts happening in people's heads.
Speaker:It's, it's much less likely to be an issue if they've had adequate sleep, in
Speaker:the run up and if they're feeling more confident, then they are terrified.
Speaker:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker:And I, yeah, I love that idea, that really thinking about it
Speaker:beforehand and preparing, and it is just preparing, isn't it?
Speaker:Instead of leaving everything till the last minute and we,
Speaker:we use the word nerve cited.
Speaker:So that mixture of nervous and excited.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:So if somebody can't completely reframe, too excited if they, because
Speaker:people are resistant, aren't they?
Speaker:Sometimes.
Speaker:So if it feels a bit too much to reframe, completely, too excited, and then go for
Speaker:somewhere in the middle with nerve cited.
Speaker:, I really like that there are a lot of reasons why it might be challenging
Speaker:for somebody to completely reframe it.
Speaker:Reframing is a skill that takes practice to build and, um, it's,
Speaker:that's why it's hard to deploy in the moment and it's something to
Speaker:work on kind of along the way, which I love that you incorporate that.
Speaker:Because we do, we get lots of secondary benefit from saying, oh, I'm so nervous
Speaker:because then everybody rallies around us and boosts our tries to boost our
Speaker:confidence and they're extra nice to us, you know, in a couple of days ahead.
Speaker:Oh, that's great stuff.
Speaker:Um, but if we were acting really excited, maybe that wouldn't
Speaker:but nerve cited I think is fantastic.
Speaker:So Tracy, is there a question that we haven't asked that actually you
Speaker:were hoping we might ask about that would fit in with sleep and drive in?
Speaker:Is there something you were thinking, oh, I really want to talk about that.
Speaker:I really like that we came around to talking about what to do the night before
Speaker:and what we were able to kind of expand that out into, not just the night before.
Speaker:Um, yeah, I think especially in, in that age bracket, because they
Speaker:have more biological challenges around an 8:00 AM than somebody who
Speaker:is not in that age demographic or.
Speaker:Who was an early bird?
Speaker:That would be my favorite time.
Speaker:I think I probably signed up for an 8:00 AM actually.
Speaker:So I, I think that particularly for younger people, they also
Speaker:have less life experience.
Speaker:In being able to apply these kinds of mindset shifts or, or to recognize
Speaker:that they have this additional, it's not a fault of theirs.
Speaker:It's an additional challenge that they have and that they can work
Speaker:with it and not feel powerless.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Oh, I love that.
Speaker:So, Tracy, you've shared so much information.
Speaker:For anyone who wants to find out more about sleep, how do they find you?
Speaker:Where can people find you?
Speaker:Pretty much everywhere on the internet.
Speaker:If you type in Tracy, the sleep coach, I tried to keep it consistent.
Speaker:So Tracy, the sleep coach.co uk is my website.
Speaker:Um, Tracy, the sleep coach is my TikTok and my Instagram and my Facebook.
Speaker:Um, and you can always just drop me an email through the website as
Speaker:well if you have, have questions, want support around sleep.
Speaker:Brilliant.
Speaker:I think it's a fascinating subject.
Speaker:It it is, and I know we talked, we sort of like highlighted
Speaker:driving, but it's, it's a life.
Speaker:Subject almost as well, isn't it?
Speaker:Because it's It's affects us all.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And you can apply it into every situation and scenario.
Speaker:And I think we like to talk about sleep almost as much as
Speaker:the weather in this country.
Speaker:How did you sleep?
Speaker:Have a terrible sleep.
Speaker:It's a massive subject.
Speaker:Brilliant.
Speaker:Thank you so much.
Speaker:It's been brilliant.
Speaker:Thank you so much for having me, and I look forward to having you in
Speaker:the driver's seat next to me soon.
Speaker:Actually, I'll probably be in the driver's seat.
Speaker:You'll be in the passenger seat.
Speaker:Yes, you'll be in the driver's seat.
Speaker:Fantastic.
Speaker:Thanks, Tracy.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:So, how did you sleep last night?
Speaker:It gets you thinking, doesn't it.
Speaker:When you talk about sleep, it really does get you thinking.
Speaker:And.
Speaker:Talking to Tracy there, you know, just, just made me think about
Speaker:myself and how much sleep I have.
Speaker:And I know it's really important.
Speaker:And it is one of the pillars that I look to when I look at my own health.
Speaker:So yeah, very, very interesting.
Speaker:It's such a fascinating subject.
Speaker:Isn't it sleep?
Speaker:It affects everything in our lives.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:And we know some of the basics, we know we have slower reaction times.
Speaker:We know that we focus on the negative when we're tired.
Speaker:I didn't know before,
Speaker:but part of being tired.
Speaker:We also, look after ourselves in respect of.
Speaker:You know, we don't like the danger.
Speaker:So we look after ourselves.
Speaker:We won't do that because I'm tired.
Speaker:I and ofcourse this comes back to that us exploring the reasons behind mystery
Speaker:or unexplained or sudden driving anxiety.
Speaker:Um, we, we were sure that sleep was a part of it and Tracy's
Speaker:confirmed that hasn't she?
Speaker:She talked about
Speaker:anxiety affects your sleep.
Speaker:So if you're feeling anxious,
Speaker:that's likely to affect how well you sleep, but then she talked about
Speaker:the fact that if you haven't slept well, that makes you hypervigilant.
Speaker:It sets all your dangerous survival signals off so that
Speaker:you're on the lookout for danger.
Speaker:And that will make you feel more anxious.
Speaker:When you talk about it, it actually makes a lot more sense.
Speaker:Doesn't it?
Speaker:Here's like.
Speaker:Oh, yeah, that's obvious.
Speaker:Isn't it?
Speaker:Yeah, it really is.
Speaker:But until you say these things, we don't really know what's happening.
Speaker:And I think for anybody who has had that experience where they've had a lack of
Speaker:sleep and then they've been driving.
Speaker:Just recognizing that.
Speaker:It may not have been the driving that created your anxiety.
Speaker:It may have been your lack of sleep,
Speaker:but then what you may have done is associated those feelings of anxiety with
Speaker:what you were doing, which was driving.
Speaker:But if you're learning to drive as well at the time of day, you're learning to drive.
Speaker:That was really interesting.
Speaker:Wasn't there?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So, you know, if you're an afternoon person and you're having lessons
Speaker:at eight o'clock in the morning.
Speaker:That's obviously going to affect you, isn't it?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, and that idea that, that could set you up with a certain type of mindset.
Speaker:Throughout your driving life then?
Speaker:If you can't concentrate well, no.
Speaker:Then you're going to find drive in stressful.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Which seems so simple.
Speaker:When you say it, doesn't it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Just really keeping that in mind, you know,
Speaker:oh, are you driving outside of your best times of day and therefore,
Speaker:could that be partly responsible for the way that you feel about driving?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But it was also something we talked about with Tracy, there was the
Speaker:difference between being tired.
Speaker:And sleepy.
Speaker:Yeah, I thought that was brilliant.
Speaker:So I could feel the difference as soon as she said it, but it's
Speaker:not something I've thought about.
Speaker:Well, I didn't think there was any difference before this.
Speaker:So for me, I think tired and sleepy are both the same
Speaker:thing, but obviously not now.
Speaker:So I know.
Speaker:There's a big difference.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:If I'm saying I'm tired, I'm not likely to fall asleep, but if I'm sleepy, I am.
Speaker:You are very likely to.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So that's when you need to go and have a nap.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So that was really important.
Speaker:For driving safety.
Speaker:Isn't it.
Speaker:Exactly recognize the two and then be able to put that into practice.
Speaker:And then I know we've touched on this very briefly, but that thing about teenagers.
Speaker:The times the circadian rhythms are different.
Speaker:Biological clocks are different.
Speaker:And that's normal.
Speaker:And that's natural.
Speaker:So not only to try and work within that, but also for parents driving
Speaker:instructors, other people listening.
Speaker:There is a biological reason behind it.
Speaker:They do need that extra sleep.
Speaker:And eight o'clock in the morning does feel like the middle of the night for them.
Speaker:So it isn't just that they're being lazy.
Speaker:Bear that in mind?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Definitely.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:We also talked a little bit about long drives and sleepiness.
Speaker:And they don't mix.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:So, you know, if you're going to be going on a long drive, Break up the journey.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Take breaks.
Speaker:If you need to nap.
Speaker:Have a nap.
Speaker:It seems very simple, but how many of us actually do this?
Speaker:So I think that's what we need to take from this anxiety.
Speaker:And sleep are connected.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:I'm prepared.
Speaker:So that might be preparing for a long journey preparing because
Speaker:you know, you're not driving at the best time of day for you.
Speaker:Preparing if you know, you've got to get up for an early driving test.
Speaker:If that isn't the best time of the day for you.
Speaker:So preparing long in advance.
Speaker:So for the several days in the run up to your driving test, prepare.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That was good.
Speaker:I enjoyed that podcast.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Great.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:Hopefully you found that information as interesting and helpful as we did.
Speaker:If you do, don't forget to share the podcast with anybody else that
Speaker:you think might find it helpful.
Speaker:Click follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast player and
Speaker:maybe leave us a review as well.
Speaker:That'd be lovely.
Speaker:Tracy's contact details and our contact details are in the show notes as always.
Speaker:Um, so all that leaves us to do is to say, have a great day, whatever you're doing.
