The forthcoming episode features an incisive dialogue with Dr. Rev. Leah Robinson, an esteemed scholar and author, who shares her insights regarding her upcoming book, "Born Perfect or Boy Erased: A Journey with Survivors of Conversion Therapy." At the forefront of our discussion is the critical examination of conversion therapy, illuminating its harrowing implications for individuals, particularly within the LGBTQ+ community. Dr. Robinson, whose academic tenure spans several prestigious institutions, brings her expertise in practical theology to bear on this pressing issue, advocating for a deeper understanding of the detrimental effects of such practices. Throughout the episode, we engage with her experiences, the theological underpinnings of conversion therapy, and the imperative for a compassionate and informed discourse within the church. This conversation not only sheds light on the experiences of survivors but also challenges the prevailing narratives that perpetuate harm in the name of faith.

A profound discourse unfolds as Reverend Dr. Leah Robinson, a distinguished scholar and advocate, engages in a compelling dialogue concerning her imminent literary work, which critically examines the contentious practice of conversion therapy. This episode serves as a poignant exploration of the theological underpinnings that have historically justified such harmful practices, juxtaposed with the harrowing narratives of those who have suffered under its doctrine. Dr. Robinson elucidates the insidious nature of bad theology, which manifests as oppression disguised in the guise of divine mandate, particularly affecting the LGBTQ community. As she articulates the multifaceted dangers associated with conversion therapy, she emphasizes the urgent need for the church to recognize and rectify its role in perpetuating harm, thereby fostering an environment of acceptance and healing. The conversation also delves into the broader implications of conversion therapy on mental health, highlighting the alarming rates of suicide and psychological distress among its survivors, thus catalyzing a call to action for both individuals and institutions to advocate for change and support inclusive theological frameworks.

Takeaways:

• Dr. Rev Leah Robinson's upcoming book addresses the harmful impact of conversion therapy on LGBTQ individuals and the flawed theology that supports such practices.
• The podcast explores the historical context of conversion therapy, highlighting shifts in theological perspectives from the 1990s to present.
• Leah emphasizes the importance of understanding personal experiences of conversion therapy survivors to foster empathy and compassion within the church.
• The conversation challenges listeners to reflect on their own theological beliefs and how they may affect others' lives, particularly marginalized communities.
• Robinson advocates for a broader dialogue within the church about acceptance and support for LGBTQ individuals, emphasizing unity despite differing beliefs.
• The episode underscores the necessity of addressing bad theology and its real-world consequences, particularly in relation to mental health and suicide rates among LGBTQ youth.

They don't hold on to the head, from whom the whole body, nourished and held together by its ligaments and tendons, grows with growth from God. If you died with Christ to the elements of this world, why do you live as if you still belong to the world? Why do you submit to regulations?

Don't handle, don't taste, don't touch. All these regulations refer to what is destined to perish by being used up. They are human commands and doctrines.

Although these have a reputation for wisdom by promoting self made religion, false humility and severe treatment of the body, they are not of any value in curbing self indulgence. So in this pricope of scripture, the author is addressing a false teaching in the church around what is okay to eat and drink as Christians.

Reverend Dr. Leah Robinson how can we understand this criticism of a particular kind of legalism in the early church today and how we ought to conduct ourselves in the modern church?

Yeah, I think that's a fantastic verse for the book.

But also I think, I don't think, I think we need to take out the early church part and just know that this is wisdom that transcends the early church. I think that this idea that we have a form of religion that is human made is really important. That's sort of the basis of all of my writing.

And it doesn't make it any less spiritual or important or holy in that sense to think of things as, and structures as being human made because that's all we have. You know, we've created a world where we've tried to box God into this building essentially and make these structures that make sense to us.

And, and depending on where you grow up, geographically it looks very different. So I think what they're warning against here is to not make that your idol.

Don't become beholden to that structure in whatever way it's like, because there is something that's greater than that. And so that's what I get from that verse is that. But I think we forget that.

And I think there's something within us that needs that certainty that we've got it right. And I think they're saying don't think that because there's always something greater than yourself.

And as a theologian, I think we could, we could really reflect on that script scripture. More.

Good stuff. Good stuff. Yeah, I do like that scripture a lot. Hey, guys, welcome to the whole church podcast. Possibly your favorite church unity podcast.

It's cool if it's not though, because we're not in competition with the other unity podcast to be more united than them because, like, we totally win. We're way more. I can't even like. Yeah, there's just no point in having competition for unity because that doesn't even make sense.

It's just non coherent. But I am here with the most coherent man alive, the creator of podcast, the one and only Pod Almighty, TJ Tiberius one on Blackwell.

How's it going, tj? Good. Yeah. And we're here with a very special guest. Return guest, good friend. One of our co hosts on a different podcast, this MacDigology Check.

All three of us out over there. Coming with a new book. New book. We have Leah Robinson here. Welcome back, Dr. Reverend Leah.

Thank you. And clearly theology on the rocks is the most unifying of all.

Well, when you drink enough or when you're silly enough, if you combine silliness and drinks, I think eventually you get that unity bit.

I think the actual key to church unity is that we should just be. Be doing that.

Yeah.

That's why Lutherans are.

Why do you think I converted to Lutheran?

That has nothing to do with Will. Will's evangelism mission is really.

He's great. He's so good at his job.

I was gonna say he actually is.

So good at his job.

It's just also like we were talking about that before.

He never seems like he's working when he's doing his job. Like, it just seems like he's having a good time.

Pastor Will, we love. Really. I don't feel offended when people call me the Reverend Doctor and they call him Pastor Will and like, those are appropriate.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So we're gonna be talking with Reverend Dr. Lee Robinson about our upcoming book and how the church has treated people, LGBT community, how we can do better. I think we're talking probably a little bit about conversion therapy stuff too, maybe. Yeah. So it'll be fun.

Yeah, we're actually going to start something. Conversion there.

Interesting.

I'm gonna say. Will it be fun?

It'll be interesting. Interesting. That's a good.

Josh is undergoing conversion therapy to become Pentecostal again.

I didn't even know that I was undergoing set therapy.

Yeah. Sucks, doesn't it?

So, yeah. Oh, go ahead.

Reverend Dr. Leah Robinson.

Yeah, you can only refer to me with those.

It's Very tedious. She's abhorrent.

That was very tedious to get those degrees as well, so.

Yeah, but you are the author of Bad Theology, Oppression in the Name of God and Bad Theology in a Time of COVID two books that most people say are pretty good. She's one of the hosts on Theology on the Rocks, like we mentioned. She's one of the hosts on Systematic Geekology, like we mentioned.

She's also a professor of religion at William Woods University. So if that doesn't give you. So if that doesn't entice you enough to listen to this, then I'm sorry. But she's worth it if we're not.

But you should go to our website, buy one of our T shirts. Helps promote the show.

It raises money for podcasting needs, and it gets others to know about the importance of our mission to educate and unite the modern church. Me, personally, I. I have my favorite, as always. It's the TJ quote on the back, and it says nothing on the back. It's very understated.

It's got the logo. It's got an arm logo. I love it. It rocks. I do.

It's also my favorite thing TJ's ever said. That's not true. But it could be.

What does it say? What does it say?

Nothing.

Oh, okay. There's nothing there, truly. Okay.

Yeah. Because TJ's will be. In a few words.

I. Well, sometimes I have met him in real life, but I didn't know that. It was just. I thought it was nothing.

I think it's actually in the show description, like in the product description. I think it literally just says, TJ is a man. A few words. Yeah.

But if you're listening to this, you should also check out the Onslaught podcast Network website. The link is below for other shows that are like ours and that aren't like ours and shows that we like to like and, you know, the whole.

Thing, including the two we've already mentioned.

Yep.

So with that, of course, I do have a favorite form of unity. The holy sacrament of silliness. No one can be divided when they're drinking or having or being as silly as I like to be.

Yeah, today's is an interesting one, say the least. If you were a body of water, TJ and I linked your first. Give you time to think about it.

If you were a body of water, you know, river, ocean, lake, whatever, what kind of body of water would you be, tj?

This one's really hard for me. I love water. All forms of it. Actually, I think My least favorite might be ocean, just because I don't like sand, so it's not the ocean's fault.

But I might. I might have to go with creek. I might. I might would be a creek. Just a nice.

And not like, a Scottish creek or something, you know, that would get on, like, the front page of an art book. A real creek. A creek.

I know. I grew up in Georgia. I know what a crick. You know, there's some turtles in there that'll bite your toes off.

Yeah, but I'm. I'm the creek.

Oh, okay. Oh, that's true. Yeah, you'll bite their toes.

Just something homey about it.

Hmm.

I feel like I might be cheating here. So let me just throw out there. My favorite body of water is the ocean. I love the ocean. I'm not the ocean.

Like, if I was a body of water, I would not be that, because, like, I feel like the ocean is just way more intense than I am. I think most of the time I'm gonna go a geothermal pool. I love the heat, too. It's mostly calm. It's chill. Keeps to itself.

Except for every now and then, just erupts. Yeah, I think that's probably pretty accurate. So I'm geothermal pool. Leah, what body of water would you.

I would love to see you get mad, and then I would immediately run away. I just wouldn't be like. Like, I would, like, push AJ towards you, and then I would walk backwards.

Not me. I ain't got nothing to do with that.

Have you seen me at tj?

Maybe.

I feel like it really just happened so rarely. I don't know.

That's very sweet. I. If we're. If we're. I thought we were kind of going for what we would want to be, like, what we're aspiring to be.

That's fair.

So for me, since I am already a cyclone and a typhoon of insanity, what I would hope to be is what you're describing. Joshua is. In my head, I had this vision of, like, a Caribbean, like, warm pool with, like, clear water and, like.

Like, kind of maybe a cave situation. Like, that's what I would. I would be drawn to that.

I would want to embody that in reality, you know, that the movie the Meg, which is, like, about the shark. I'm like, whatever version. Yeah, it's super bad. It's terrible. But I need you to know that I am whatever version of the notion that the Meg is.

So that's why I would very much aspirationally love me a Caribbean pool somewhere.

Also, for those wondering, this might be the only time TJ's answered a question incorrectly. He is the Colorado River. He created the Grand Canyon. That's now TJ lore. Continue.

Right, right, right.

Yeah.

So a few times I have.

I. I know you guys. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. You've been on the show a few times. We're gonna put a link to all of the Leah episodes below.

If you keep coming back, you might catch up to Tom Ord one day. Just.

I feel a little.

He's been on a lot.

Tom sleeping on a lot.

Yeah, well, I mean, you guys are white guys, and he does process theology, so that's.

Well, he writes a lot more books. To be fair. I don't know how he has time.

To do it, because he has his own publishing company.

You can't create a publishing company and release 50 books. And we will have you on for every single.

But you remember that cyclone? That cyclone was going to. Yeah.

But for today's purposes, the purpose of our conversation, we want to start by asking you specifically your history with topics around the LGBTQ space. Have you always been an ally? Why did you feel the need to write this work? Are you. Do you identify as a part of a queer community? Tell us, what's the.

Leah's story? What's the connection here?

I was born. No. So I think I'm not. Yeah. If I was tj, that's just where I would end. That would be. Yeah. I'm not a part of the community. I'm very painfully straight.

Painfully, painfully straight. Sorry, Stuart.

Well, there's. There's moments where I'm like. Like when the hockey. The men's hockey team thing came out, I was like, oh. So anyway. But no, I am. And.

But I will say that I've always been interested in sort of the. The gender stuff. And from when I was younger, because I grew up in the Southern Ravage Church, that's tale as old as time here.

And I've written about that and. And wanting to be ordained and that whole situation of their misreading of scripture that it continues to happen.

It's also interesting to me when people start talking about women being too emotional and then just watching our current administration in office, like, wow. Yeah, okay.

Sorry.

Sorry. Unity. But I'm gonna. I have stances now. Sorry, guys.

That's why we had the adjective church unity. Because it can be like, yeah, you know, I don't.

If I'm going to the creeds and stuff or like, Jesus is like something seems like it doesn't fit Maybe, but.

Also, I think it's okay. And I. I teach humanity, so I teach religion.

This is a side quest, but I teach religion, politics and history, and I think it's one of those things where I am. I have stances, and I won't back down from them now. But what I. What I think we've lost the ability to do is to talk about our varying stances.

And there are certain things that I am not going to. To humor, like genocide or, you know, sexual assault or, you know, whatever, like, fill in the blank. But there are certain things where I think we.

We've kind of lost the ability to dialogue and, like, it's okay that, you know, you don't change my mind and I don't change yours, like, life goes on. But I do think we've lost that. That stuff. Skill. So I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church, and gender was always a big thing for me because of.

Of what I wanted to do. I knew from a very early age that I wanted to do theology, and I wanted to be a minister, and I was told that I couldn't. And I also just like.

I mean, you guys are Southerners, too. You know, the world that we grew up in was. Was.

Yeah.

Was not always easy being a woman, I will say, as well. You know, I was forever saying, don't show your arms. You're going to cause a brother to stumble.

I know you guys are just stumbling all over the place because my shoulders are on display here. But it was. It seemed like a lot of pressure.

And I also saw, like, even little things, like when we would do, like, Thanksgiving and stuff at my house, and it would always be like, the women cooking and cleaning and all of this stuff. And there's nothing wrong with that. If you love to cook and clean, go for it. But it just felt like, would bring me in.

I'll be talking about football in the living room, and they'd be like, we got to come in here and do this. Why?

Because that's what you do, you know, so there was always these sort of prescribed roles that I didn't really understand, and so that was always in my head. When I eventually went to college and seminary, I was very much educated. I was.

I was at Mercer, where I teach now, and I was educated in this idea that all of this other stuff that is wrong. So these were the Baptists that have been kicked out of Southern Seminary and a lot of these very conservative Baptist spaces.

I'm like, cool. Yeah, yeah.

Hey, progress is progress.

Progress is progress. And at the time, I will tell you, it didn't feel strange for them to say that, you know, like, because you're in the world that you're in.

So, like, you don't know. I can say this looking back, that was. I won most likely to be a woman preacher at my religion night out or whatever of my. My undergrad.

But then when I go to Edinburgh, I At university for my PhD, and then I start working there, I realized that this is where the. The queer community stuff comes in, is that I was getting all of the students that basically no one wanted to touch in terms of their PhDs.

Those folks were predominantly people in the queer community who want to do queer theology. There's a long history of queer theology at Edinburgh with Marcel Altel Street. She had passed away whenever I started working there.

So there was this big kind of gap, and I kept getting, you know, it's all about the, you know, John Calvin and, you know, whatever process stuff. Yeah, whatever. Carl.

Thomas Aquinas.

Thomas Aquinas.

Do we get to being.

Here's what I'll say. Here's what my. Whatever is. There's plenty of people who will supervise those PhDs. You're not gonna have to fight for this.

But I just kept getting this, like, slew of people who were like, but I want to look at this and this. So it made me have to really catch up with a lot of that stuff so I could be the support that I. I needed to. To be for them.

And they started a LGBTQ group at Edinburgh, which was huge. I mean, this is not a conservative university by any stretch, but it was a very typically reformed Protestant space. And so I was.

I was the first speaker at their conference, which was great, but I had to learn really quick, and I had to learn in order to supervise. But it was in the same spirit, I think, as a lot of the stuff that I had dealt with when I was younger, which is like, okay, we have. We want to talk.

We want to have a voice. But people keep telling us that we can't be in this space, and how are we. How can we be in this space?

And so I think that is something that even though it wasn't a part of the community that was important.

So, yeah, it is.

Also, growing up in the south, we kind of have not unique, but a kind of special idea of gender, especially when we're younger, because of how normalized it is to be like a tomboy. No one bats an eye. But whether or not that belongs in the queer community, you know, no one talks about that and how that.

It almost seems like a lot of kids don't want to be, you know,.

What they are, or it may just be that we are. Again, much like the beginning of this podcast is, we're trying to put people in these structures that are arbitrary.

And I didn't want to wash dishes. I wanted to talk college football. But I, I, I, I like, you know, I wear all black, where my podcast partner, Christy loves a good pink.

But then I. I really love boys, you know, and it's like, these are. But these are all. You know, you'd be like, oh, she's here, she's here, she's here, she's here. But it's like, why are we putting people in these.

These spaces? You know, like, let them just be humans.

We are. We are all wearing black.

Yeah, well, mine's.

Josh doesn't have black pants on, but I do.

I do.

Okay.

I also do. What if we just started our own little emo band?

Also, since you did mention that your shoulders are showing, unfortunately, we are gonna have to mark this podcast as explicit.

I don't want to cause any of my brothers to stumble or my sisters to stumble or anyone in between to stumble.

We should start a band, though, because my bass has black strings on it.

I can do nothing musically, but I could be like Flavor Flav. I could be like, the Hype woman and just, like, scream about how great y' all are.

I can't even clap. Clap and be. Yeah, Like, I don't. Yeah. But, Leah, does your book have a. Had a title yet?

It. It has a tentative title. It's called Born Perfect or Boy Erased. Bad Theology and the Conversion therapy. And conversion therapy. Those. It's long.

It's long.

You can't get away from the bad theology thing. Like, that's got to be in there somewhere.

I didn't want it.

You didn't want it. Any.

Bad theology and bad therapy.

Look, here's the deal. We were talking about Tom earlier. He's never going to get away from, like, the relational stuff.

Like, it will always be in every title to some degree. This is now my cross to bear, I guess, is that I wrote A book that was fairly popular now that's. They.

All the other publishers want me to include it on there. So it'll be. It's more of a. Yeah. Anyway, I would have shortened it, but.

I mean, there's still time. I. I like it. I think it's good. I. I like that it has the bad theology, because I like. I'm like, you know, I like a good brand. It makes me happy.

It's a brand. It's a brand.

Consistency.

1, 2, 3. I mean, and also that guy who is my PhD that people is not related to bad theology. But. So, yeah, so I'm.

Boy Erased is a very popular novel that's been turned into a movie about conversion therapy by Gerard Connolly. And Born Perfect is a website that was created in order to support people who'd been through conversion therapy.

So it's this idea of like, yeah, you know what? Yeah, but it. But they're both, like, based in theology.

And I think that was what really drew me there to begin with is what are we actually saying about this? Because these are two different theological interpretations. And, you know, it really seems to just be like where we.

We hitch our wagon in a way, and not necessarily what has been coming from the sky downward. Yeah.

So that's not what I want. You mentioned. Sorry, my head just came.

If I was like, really drinking, drinking, I would be like, oh, my God.

So this, the upcoming book we have. I'm gonna. I'm trying to remember the title. I'm already like, Born Perfect or Boy Erase. Okay. Who would you say is the intended audience?

And do you have, like, a main goal behind the project? Are you, like, advocating to ban conversion therapy?

Helping those who are hurt by the church, trying to change a church's doctrine, or just educating us on what's. What's out there?

Yeah. So I had a conversation with our fellow friend of our podcast, Josh Patterson, about this and how you write.

Love that guy.

Yeah, he's pretty cool.

Cool Josh.

We just keep our. We keep our eye on him, but he. Pretty cool. And I was saying that when I wrote Embodied Peace Building, um, my academic friends loved it because it's.

It's basically a systematic theology. It's very dense. When I wrote bad theology, it was a half and half. So it was practical application and systematics.

In the beginning, my PhD students liked half of it. They liked the practical half. Bad theology and Covid was written for congregations, essentially. It's. It's written to be a helpful thing for them and.

But I will say my academic friends really don't like the COVID book. Now, what's different? You talk about audiences. What's different in all of this is that my brain hasn't changed.

Like I can still write any of these books. It's just that you have to decide who your audience is going to be. And I think that's a real.

A real important thing to know before you start any book. My audience for this is as many people as possible. So it's not going to be a high academic book because I want people to read it and to understand.

So I'm going to do a summary of bad theology in it. The systematic aspect, which I really flush out here, because you can't just say something's bad theology, not flesh it out. So I'm going to do that.

But then I want people to read it to understand what other people have gone through. Because the majority of the. The book is going to be people's stories. It's a qualitative research project. So it's.

I've been interviewing people and transcribing and it is rough. It's rough to hear their stories. So that is who my demographic is, as many people who will read it that are not.

That are a part of the community, the queer community, but also hopefully those that are not. And that is again, why I wrote the COVID book too, is I was.

I wanted to reach people who were not in academics or not even in the beer camp crowd that would read these books and be like, wow, my church wasn't the best. Or Will sent me a message. He goes, my church followed all of these protocols. And I was like, okay, so you're just love him. I know, but he did.

He was like, if you ever want to write about the good theology in Covid. I was like, it's not really a. It's not really what people are wanting me to do right now, but it would be nice.

So the goal, I would say, well, we had a rather unfortunate. I don't know if you guys saw the Supreme Court event that happened recently. I think it was like two days ago. Yeah, I got like 5,000 texts about it.

I was talking about this on the. On theology on the rocks. I was like, most people just text to like wish you a happy birthday.

And I get texts like, did you see the Supreme Court this thing?

So, yeah, basically, I don't think this is being too like, negative to say that they basically overturned the illegalness of conversion therapy in Colorado. And at the Supreme Court level, there's currently 23 states that have a Ban on it.

And so it means essentially that it'll probably unravel from that, unfortunately, because that's the way the federal government works. So my, my goal, I guess, has shifted since two days ago.

My goal first was just to show people how, you know, damaging this, this process was, but also the theology that's behind it. What was the theology that's being used to fuel this. And now it shifted to let me tell these stories.

I mean, it's still that, but it's also, let me tell these stories. So you can see why it was banned to begin with, you know, because the suicide rate for people who've been through this is so high.

So it's not just you don't like someone's theology or you don't think, you know, trans people should play sports or whatever boogeyman that you have. It's not just that.

It's that people are dying because they feel like they can't live up to a theology that's telling them that their entire existence is wrong and that they feel like they can't change.

I'm gonna be a little annoying for a second because, like, I like law stuff a lot, probably too much. So one, I don't like the Supreme Court's rule. And I'm gonna start there because, like, that's like, probably the safe thing, but.

But the big asterisk, the thing that politicians like to do is blame the Supreme Court for things so that you're mad at them and don't pay attention to the fact that all that they did was interpret what laws already exist.

Yeah, your congressmen are the one you need to be mad about because they need to be doing their job and creating new legislation so that we have better rulings about these things in the future. But. But what they want you to do is be mad at the Supreme Court so you don't bother your congressman and they can continue to not do their jobs.

So make Congress do their jobs. Please write your congressman.

Agreed.

That's all.

It is really fun to be mad at the Supreme Court though, isn't it?

It's a blast.

Well, in the Supreme Court, I will say that was an 8 to 1 ruling, like, so that's a couple of those, quote, judges that were. I think Jackson is the only one that was the one. And so you had a couple that were for it.

I've seen the written defense of why they were for it because they said it would also open up a world where. Because this.

Basically the court case that went to the Supreme Court was there was this Colorado counselor, Christian counselor that wanted to be able to speak about sexuality stuff and felt like they couldn't. This is a very. Too long. Don't read. Like, there's a lot more to it. Course, of course.

And the Supreme Court said that, you know, she should be allowed to do that, to talk to underage folks about that. People who are not of legal aid.

Now, the other side of that is, I think at least the defense that the other justices have is that this would also open up a space for people who need gender affirmation care. So trans kids would also be able to get counseling. I think that's the argument how that ends up looking.

I am less optimistic than those court justices about. And again, there's probably more. I'm not a legal scholar. This is me reading. So, yeah,.

Man, I'm a nerd. I'm just gonna say, guys, if you can go to a podcast that I enjoy listening to called Advisory Opinions, it is a more conservative.

But they're like conservatives who don't like Trump, if that helps.

But they tend to have really do a really good job at predicting which way the court's gonna rule and how many are gonna rule in favor of, like, they do a really good breakdown of everything. So if you just kind of want to know more about it, go find that podcast and listen to it. Cause that's a legal podcast, and this one's not.

And TJ Will eventually tell me to shut up.

Yeah, no, please do. Because I claim one thing that I've gotten very good at it being an academic, is staying in my lane. And that's not my lane.

Like, I read the news articles like you and everybody else. So.

Yeah, yeah. Another thing we do really bad in America. That's part of this whole problem.

We don't clarify what counts as medical help when it comes to, like, therapy and, like, like, all that kind of stuff. So we have a. We don't want to ban people from expressing their opinions at all.

And we don't hardly really have a good way of saying this is what classifies as medical help, and this is what classifies as your religious opinion. And maybe we just need to draw lines better. But I don't know. That's a. That's a whole nother I'm not qualified to talk about thing.

Well, I mean, I do think the. What I am qualified to talk about, I will say is with the conversion therapy stuff, is that these people weren't counselors.

Like, they weren't, like, qualified certified counselors. I'm currently Trying to get in a counselor program now because I'm a glutton for punishment.

You have to actually be like, certified in your state to be a counselor. These people weren't that. They were folks who were what I guess you could call theological counselors for their specific position, but they were.

Were basically ministers. But they were claiming this sort of counseling status. Now, can I say every single one wasn't.

No, because I'm not a betting person because I don't trust myself. Yeah, Cyclone. However, what I read is that overwhelming majority were. Were not professional people. So that's something to keep in mind too.

Is this when we say conversion therapy, you need to really put therapy in. In quotations there.

Yeah.

So through the course of this project, what would you say, like, your three biggest revelations have been?

Yeah, I think probably the first biggest revelation is. So of course I was really focused on the theology that they were using. That was my. That was what I was interested in.

So I was wanting to do qualitative research. I wanted to hear the stories. I wanted to know the theology they were using that was bad theology that they were trying to.

To levy against these folks. And I think what's interesting is how the theology shifted. So this sort of practice, you know, there's.

So that's sort of the time period that we're operating in, in that sort of 90s time. It was a very much.

You'll appreciate this, Joshua, very sort of Pentecostal view was quite popular, which is that theologically speaking, is that these young people would go in to conversion therapy and that God would change them. Like just something miraculous would happen and they would be not gay. There was some sort of supernatural element there.

As the years start to progress, what you start to see is the theology begins to shift. And that's because a lot more scandals started to come out.

Because I don't know if this is going to shock anyone, but it didn't really have very successful numbers of people not being gay. It was almost like it wasn't working. But the. The ministries couldn't admit that, oh, well, God doesn't actually want them to be.

You know, the theological gymnastics is it's not working because God doesn't want them to be gay. Well, that that undermines my whole. Or that God wants them to be gay. So that undermines my whole theological argument there.

So what they start to shift to is this idea that essentially you're choosing like you're gay. Okay. And. But you're choosing, you as a human are choosing this lifestyle. Like God doesn't want you to be gay somehow.

You're so gay because you're a delinquent. You're a theological delinquent.

I do want to know like, how that like follow up survey went. Like they just send them a box and it asks if they're still gay.

Or do they send in one male nurse and one female nurse and you know, they, they do like put the dog in the middle thing.

They either get to see who was it you. You were talking about about earlier from on our other show, John Baloney or.

Whatever or Zendaya, Elodie and Zendaya. We were talking.

Yeah. They just see an image of both of them.

Yeah, I'm glad they broke up and she got back together with Tom Holland.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

They did.

They did date. They. They did date. We didn't even talk about that. They did.

Yeah, they did.

But.

Yeah, but yeah, no, so that was surprising. I think is. And wait, what did you ask? You asked how do they know? Follow up. Yeah.

So how they knew is really interesting because essentially it's because you had to complete the program.

And the biggest thing with completing the program was they wanted to make kind of poster children out of the people that were successful and get them to give their testimony. So giving the. You all grew up in the testimony world. I did as well.

Is that the biggest sort of thing that they could show that they were successful was the testimony. And sometimes that testimony is I married a woman and I should say this is majority men as well. So if it's gendered, that's why.

Yeah.

I married a woman and I have children and I am completely changed. Or the testimony can just be, you know, I'm. Because of this shift in theology, I am choosing to be not gay by not having relationships, essentially.

And that's really how they judged it. The issue that starts to come out, I, I laugh a little because it, at some stage you have to.

Is that you had these poster children who were giving their testimony and a lot of them started to work for these big organizations. The two biggest ones were Love in Action and Exodus, these ministries.

There was a lot of controversy that started to happen that maybe showed that their testimony wasn't entirely honest. Yeah, yeah. So that's where you start to see people being like. So it was either.

The answer is it was either these Testimonies or people just dropped out for reference. One person has told me that they went to Love in action.

It was $7,000 for three months, and they said that you would have to be in there for at least a year. So. Yeah. Mm. So that's another cash. There's another cash grab that you'd think if God really wanted this to take place, that would be.

God would be a little bit more generous in terms of how much.

Yeah. $30,000 A year. And we'll make you straight.

Yep.

Yeah, I.

So since you kind of brought up a little bit of this, of, like, whether God can change someone, whether they're making that choice, a lot of this stuff gets brought up. So I think a lot of this conversation still happens. And now it's usually, are you side A or side B Christian? And it's.

Do you think that they're making that choice and they're just evil wretches? When they get saved, they'll want to. Or do you think people are born that way, identify that way, and maybe continue to be that way?

And I just need to not act on it would be kind of like type B. And like, with a Christian Unity podcast, I just, like.

I will say I have a much easier time with side B stuff where I'm like, I disagree with you, but it's easier to disagree with the side A. People tend to be more angry. It seems like just in my experience. I want to get your opinion on this, because we're talking about testimonies.

Jackie Hill Perry, I think someone who gets brought up a lot, and she writes a book. She's a side B. She was allegedly born gay, had this whole thing, had an experience with God.

God changed her, that she married a man and has the thing. But even in her book, she says, I don't think that's what happens for everyone. What do we do with those kind of testimonies that do exist?

Because, like, sexuality is weird. And some stuff times weird stuff happens. Right?

Yeah, 100. I mean, there are some of these.

These folks who came out and they're like, I am changed in whatever version, like you said that that looks like whether it's celibacy or it's marrying someone. And it worked. And, you know, I'm all about the nuance. I think it's okay. You know, I. I think we're very capable of existing on this kind of spectrum.

But what I will say on the other side of that is the overwhelming. And I mean, it's overwhelming like these.

It doesn't appear to be a thing that works, quote, unquote, in the way that they want this objective to be, which is to make people ex gay. And honestly, I would argue theologically, it doesn't matter if you're on side A or side B of that coin.

That's how they adjusted it because the numbers weren't looking great. But I don't think it necessarily ma. What, what to me matters is the fact that these folks had to.

A lot of them were forced into these things that as underage children and told that they were kind of abominations, basically.

Yeah.

And to me, that is the bigger issue. How you want to understand sexuality is your own kind of personal journey.

But I do think that the, the, the bigger issue here is that we've now opened it up for again, these kids. And these kids are, are committing suicide.

You know, Jack McIntyre very famously killed himself because, and he wrote in his note, he said, I can't change who I am, but I also don't feel like I can be who God wants me to be. So I have no other options here. And he, he tells his family, sorry. He's like, I'm sorry, I don't know what to do.

And I just think if we are a group of people as a church who are trying to support and love people, this ain't it. Like, and I don't, I honestly don't think it's being liberal or conservative to say that. Like, if we are here to love and support, like, this isn't.

This isn't that. Like, it's making someone feel like they're terrible humans every single day. We've lived through that.

Like, I mean, I talked about that early on in this podcast is. I know what that's like. You know, it doesn't make you closer to God, doesn't make you want to be a Christian.

It, you know, it makes you kind of mad at the whole thing.

Yeah, I am.

Well, so I'm going to clarify something and then ask you a question not related to what I'm clarifying, but for those listening who haven't read her other books, when Leah says bad theology, she isn't just saying, ew, gross. I don't like that theology.

She lays out criteria for what makes something bad theology and then compares it to, like, it's a whole actual academic process.

I'm curious about bad theopraxy because, well, we all know some people and this time I'm not going to use names, but we know people who, I think we would say who are. I'm going to do the other side first.

We know people who are affirming, who are kind of assholes about it and not very nice to people who disagree with them. And I'm like, I don't like that at all, actually. And I know people who. I hate their theology around this.

They're not affirming, like, what they say they believe. I'm like, that is dangerous and bad for people. But then how they actually treat people.

I'm like, I would much rather be friends with this guy than that other guy. So I guess the question is, like, how much more does practice matter than theology in this, or does it matter?

Yeah, well, I'm a practical theologian, so I believe that all theology is practical. There is no good answer if it's not practical. It's been abstracted from a practice. So. So that is Don Browning, but I've stolen it.

Josh Patterson gave me credit for it the other day, and I was like, I'm pretty sure Paul said that as well, but thank you very much.

I guess I usually give you credit for that line too.

I think I appreciate that. And you can keep doing it. It's. It's because I do say it, but I'm maybe not the first to say it.

Yeah, I think Schleiermacher also said it, but you know what? Whatever. They're long. They're long gone. They don't need tenure.

Yeah, Some man.

Some man. I need tenure. They're long gone. They're. They're with our Lord. Yeah. So I think that is kind of.

I mean, I was doing a little bit of a social justice rant there, but I do think it's one of those things where I'm blaming it a little bit on the evangelism with a little E culture, not the big evangelical culture in the sense of, like, people have to do a certain thing to get to heaven kind of thing, or say a certain prayer, which, by the way, none of this is biblical or, you know, even historically theological, but they have to do this thing to. To get in to this, you know, this place. So what we started to see is that.

That sort of idea of having the exact formula, which, by the way, the church I grew up in, the Southern Baptist Church, probably had a very different prayer than you had, Joshua. So which of us is going to happen? I don't know.

Probably D.J.

It's just me.

Just T.J. i'm the only one who.

Stayed at his church. That's what I was gonna say.

And you probably had a different prayer, too. So what about the prayer?

Yeah, that whole thing about TJ being the most coherent man alive earlier. Turns out it's accurate. And also the only criteria.

This feels like some sort of like Judd Apato Stoner movie where somehow TJ is like the actual one that's going to heaven and all the rest of us are not.

Yeah. Unfortunately, predestination is real and I'm the.

Only person on the list.

Also, I'm just a little sad that TJ's follow up wasn't. But it won't really be heaven without you. It doesn't matter who he's talking to. I just feel like he should still say that.

Not this time.

No, no. Okay. Next time he's just like, Evan is when I'm by myself, help alone.

That's why it's Heaven is peace.

So, yeah, I think, I mean, you can't really. People are basing these practices. And again, I was talking about my rant. But like, these are. These are not just normal church practice.

Like, we can choose the church we go to when we're adults. And I think that's important. You can choose if you want to. Happy Clappy. If you want to go with a snake. Snakes.

If you want to, you know, do whatever, you know, go to Joel Osteen and have no mess, just vague platitudes of how your life's going to be better, you can do that too. Choose your poison. But I think what we're seeing here is it's the kids that. And you and, and me and TJ all know that we didn't have choices.

Like, I grew up where I grew up because my parents got me up and took me there.

And I think that's one of the things about the praxis, is that we know as adults that the theological spectrum is wide, varied, you know, and you can go to wherever you want and you can find a bubble that will affirm what you believe to be true. But it's going to be different in each of these places. As a kid, you don't know that that's your whole world. Like, you think that this is it.

So, like, when you hear that what you are as a human is bad, you have no idea really that there are other views out there and that this is just my parents view. And maybe it's not the best because what you're being told is you're wrong. You know, so I'm all about theological freedom.

You know, pick your poison as I always say, unless it's those snakes and then, you know, be careful with your poison. But what do you have against the snakes? Man, I have nothing. I've actually just been recently researching some of that stuff. So it's all my brain.

I found out that most of the snakes actually don't do their poison bites when they bite the people. That's why so many people survive. Interesting fact there.

Because of God.

Oh, sorry. Because of God as well. Well, God makes it. Well here's the thing. Does God make it so they don't bite like that?

The kids part is what gets me is because they're not have, they don't have that sort of choice, you know, and they don't have that understanding. And so a lot of the, the stories we hear people who were forced into that.

Interestingly one of my interviews is an adult person who wanted to be a worship leader at a church. And they told him that in order to do that that he needed to go to conversion therapy.

And so he, he opted to do it because he again was in a non affirming church and he felt like that was something that was correct. And so I think that to me is a different situation because here's the deal. Guess what?

He left after I think he made it two months and he was like, this blows. I'm out. This ain't helping nothing. Kids can't do that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like the church camp that never ends. Except you're the worst.

Yeah. And you don't like church camp.

And you don't like church camp. Right.

Because DJ and I love church camp. It was great for us.

I had a great time at church camp. But I didn't love the outfit I had to wear for in Georgia. My brothers from stumbling.

Yeah, that's fair.

No, they didn't even care about that for us.

Maybe there was a, there was a length thing like fingertip length thing for.

Shorts or something because you know if you go past the fingers tips, it's just like a big orgy.

It's crazy.

Yeah.

Most importantly sn, most snakes don't have poison. It's venom. And you can drink that if you want. Won't do anything in any show you see that has people like slipping snake venom.

It's like, oh, this is going to kill them. I put them in a drink that's just dumb and infuriates me.

I've drink makes me really mad. Vietnam, you can had an actual poisonous snake. Snake in it, and it's mine.

No, if that had a poisonous snake in it, it would have killed you. It had a venomous snake in it.

That's fine.

Okay. Are y' all in a snakehound, like, church that you're not telling me about?

I just don't like what people confuse venom and poison. It's one of my random pet peeves.

I don't like animal misinformation.

It's a strange thing. But here's the deal. I get it. Bad theology. You know, pitch your tent. Pitch your tent on the mountain.

I'm gonna. I'm gonna get a doctorate in poisonology just so I can be more angry.

About this, about this snake than my toxicology degree.

Just. Just. Just for that, just.

Okay, well, first, let me clarify. I had wine with a snake that maybe had venom in it.

Yeah.

Yeah, There we go. I'm so glad I knew. I never knew.

It is cool, though. I know what you're talking about. It is really cool.

You can see them in, like, the jars.

Yeah, it's in the bottle. Yeah.

I didn't know that was a thing. That's cool.

I mean, it was real gross, but.

I want to try it now.

Yeah.

So just to say, dude, so when Born Perfect or Conversion Therapy comes out, where should we go to buy it?

Well, I'm with Bloom, Bloomsbury Publishing, which is a great publisher. They were real.

I want to really give props to them because they were super supportive of this process, and they also took a chance on a book that, you know, I've told people in different podcasts I've applied to, I think, like, three jobs now that I've not got because of this book, because it's still such a.

Well, that's still.

It is. It is sad, considering I wrote a book called Bad Theology, but this is the one that.

And I've been told, like, it's not me being, like, conspiracy theory or anything. It. You know, they. They've said that, like, people don't want to touch the sexuality thing.

They're like, basically, I feel like with theology and sex is what they want. They want people to go to their spaces.

Speaking of church unity, which is that if you are affirming, then you go to your affirming space and be over there. And if you're not, then you go over here and. But the issue then is that we're in echo chambers.

And also, when we try to bring our thing to another space, people immediately are like, no, you're in the wrong space. You know, and that's not really what church unity should be about.

I, I mean, you know, I, I'll never again agree with some of the theologies that are presented, but you should still be able to like, chat about it and talk about it. And I think we lost that ability, sadly.

But so the, the jobs, you know, I will say one of them is at a public university that I didn't get because of this. So it's transcending in North Carolina. It's transcending now just academia, theological academics in spaces that you might think like seminaries.

You might be like, oh, well, they're not, they're probably not gonna like that. It's starting to, to be a thing. Or maybe it always was, you know?

Well, the more polarized our world gets, the more it's like, even if we agree with you, people see this and then we lose half of this country who won't come here just because this exists, which is stupid. I feel like I shouldn't have to, shouldn't call things stupid, but I think that particular thing, well, it's, it's become.

Like it's a money thing. I mean, I've worked at churches. I don't know, you guys maybe have as well.

Money is so important, like in terms of non profits, so you need to have people there. You can't really upset the status quo, which is why a lot of people don't preach politics, because I don't want to exclude people in that sense.

But I do also think, yeah, we're becoming more siloed in what we think. And you know, if you're not, you, you don't even want me to talk to your students about this at all, like, even to have a discussion.

Like, I'm, I teach seminary right now at a Baptist seminary. I'm fully capable of talking about these things. And you disagreeing if you.

I mean, I'm sure TJ and Joshua and I have completely different opinions on the subject, but doesn't mean we can't talk.

And I, and I know I keep bringing this up and I keep harping on it, but it is really important because otherwise you're just listening to your own stuff over and over.

Yeah, I hate listening to my own stuff.

Do you listen to your podcast, tj?

No.

You not.

No, never.

Really?

I don't even listen to the episodes that I wasn't on.

Yeah. What he doesn't know is that I've edited him saying crazy stuff every episode just to test, you know?

Yeah, I don't. The only so I've, I've listened to one of our episodes ever.

Yeah, maybe, maybe two, but it was when I wasn't able to make it, and it was with you and Christy.

Oh, that's sweet. I didn't know about that.

He listened to that before it was out.

Yeah. While it was still just on here.

Well, you count for numbers. You'll listen to this one, though, because we'll be.

Yeah,.

I was here.

I know, but you got to hear it again. Christy was. Christie's here in spirit. She's always beside me. In spirit.

Yeah. Well, it's now that time. The time for Leah to shine.

This is probably her favorite segment and also Tom's least favorite segment, where we like to ask our guests to provide a single tangent. Something practical. So, you know, what's other practical people could do?

Tom doesn't like a practical.

You never think about the practical. No, I think Tom doesn't like when we ask the God moment, actually, because he's like, every moment's God moment.

I'm like, yeah, but we're asking about.

I agree.

Come on. We know what you mean, but like, come on, colloquial. You gotta.

I should say, I, I, I, I rail on Tom a lot, but he and I, I like Tom very much. We just, we just have. We are, Will. Theologically, we are. This is a good example of unity.

We are on the complete opposite ends of the, the logical scale.

Yeah.

Tom's the only person allowed to mention masturbation on this show.

Oh, well, I mean, now you. So.

Oh, so what's.

I meant.

D.J.

Just did.

No, I know.

So what's one thing that you think people could do that practically that can make them more like you and Tom. You are able to disagree, but still have a little bit of respect and unity involved.

Read stuff you don't like. You know, I think this is. Read stuff that you don't think you're going to fundamentally agree with. I perpetually read stuff from.

So, for instance, Fox News. I'm.

I usually look at that stuff daily, and I read stuff from these theologians that I don't agree with that are more conservative than me because I do think it's interesting. Interesting.

When you talk to people, you realize when people have actually engaged with stuff that, that they don't agree with, and then people who are just like, no, they just do, like a big cross and they're like, don't even talk to me about it. Whereas, like, at least I can have a conversation with you about it. And I think, so what.

What changes in the world around us. If everyone starts reading those, you know, just reading things they're not gonna agree.

With, you might find that you agree with some of the stuff. And I think that's interesting. You might. You might find that there's a human element.

Like I was telling Joshua in the last episode, Like, I saw a Tucker Carlson interview, and I was like, wait, are you making sense now? Like, what's that sometimes? But I was like, why? I really wish he was on. Not that. Our right side. That would be nice sometimes.

Yeah.

So I think that that is.

But that's the hand across the aisle, I think, which is this idea that you know where your firm nose are, but you might see some humanity in someone else. And I hope that's what this book does, is that's the goal is to give you not only the stories, but the feelings that these people.

People had that were fellow Christians that were feeling like they wanted to not live anymore because of who they were, and to really take it on ourselves and be like, okay, you don't think X, Y and Z about sexuality, that's fine. But what about this human who is now never going to go back to a church again, ever? And is that what you want?

Because that's not really doing what you want. Wanted, you know?

Yeah. I want to add to. When you do Leah's incredibly thoughtful, practical action, be humble.

Except that you might be the one that's wrong, not the thing you're reading. Because if you don't genuinely engage with stuff, we can't have genuine change. This is something that just makes me mad. That made me mad. Post.

The last time Trump was elected, how many people were like, I'm just not talking to anyone who voted for him. And I'm like, listen, I agree. I am also very angry.

I also think that was stupid if we're not able to genuinely connect and try to relate to one another, like, hey, maybe I could be wrong, or any of that. Nothing will ever change, and that's not what I want.

So, yeah, and it's also. But I really want to emphasize it's holding to what you think is important, too. You can do both of those things, you know, like, you can hold to the.

To this idea that, you know, because I agree with you, I think this is a catastrophic decision that was made, and you'll never change my mind about that. Nothing can happen. I. I think that could change that. But you can also hold to humanity's worth. And I think those are. Those are different things.

And you can do that. Like that's. So it's not asking you to give up your. Your sort of morals or where you stand or where you believe theology is.

It's just to see people as going on a very difficult journey as well, and. And hopefully not putting them through. I mean, some of the stuff that's going to come out in this book, I feel like people are going to read and.

And they're gonna cry. I cry when I transcribe it. And I'm like, this is the church.

Like,.

I know you don't like this about this person and you think it's theologically wrong, but they're never gonna step foot across that barrier again. They'll never, never walk into church again. And was that the goal? Like, yeah, yeah.

That's so sad.

It is sad. But before we wrap up, we like to do what we call our God moment.

You know, this maybe, but we'll just ask everyone to share a moment where they saw God in their life recently. Whether it be a blessing, a challenge, a moment of worship, curse, whatever it is, whatever God's been doing in your life.

That's what we want to hear. So, Josh Copper, you're gonna go first. Copper.

Copper's like, ah, wants to go first.

Copper has a lot to say. Say, yeah, I saw God recently in my future when I was blessed eating chicken parm very shortly after this. I'm really excited for that. So that.

That's actually going to be my God moment. I'm really excited.

Oh, yeah, I get it. I understand.

Sometimes food does it, you know, for.

I was his camp counselor. That. That's why it makes me sad.

You owe me money. I said, he couldn't go through a whole episode and not bring up his age. I don't bet. So we didn't put any money on it, man.

It's pretty funny for me, but it's really hard to plan stuff with adults. It really sucks.

And there is an arcade bar near me that closed down yesterday, and we managed to get eight people to find the time to go together on the last day of operation and just have a good time one last time.

So will your next God moment be when me, you, the Tiffany and Wyatt Stewart,.

If you could get it. Abari.

Is that the next comment?

He's like, did you say Christie?

Yeah, did I? Sure.

Did you call Christy?

No, I'm just saying, did he include her? Because if not, why.

True. Why Would she, You know, it's in Charlotte. Why would she come all the way from Florida?

I exist. Have you met?

I mean, if I was in Florida, I don't know if I would leave Florida.

I'm going to Florida in September to see the format with her because.

Oh, me too.

I mean, I don't even really like the format, but just because it's Christie, so. Yes, that's fair.

So, Leah, do you have a God moment for us?

Good segue. Yes, I do. I. This is going to sound way more churchy than I usually sound, but I went to church on Easter and I will say that there's been a lot of.

Oh, thank you.

You know, I couldn't help it. I'm sorry.

The, like, high holiday I went. There's been a lot of stuff going on. Christy and I have talked about this as well. Out with the sort of political realm of insanity.

We've had a lot of se. We call it our Spring of Disappointment, if you've listened to the podcast. But it really has been living up to that name.

It just is like a real series of stuff that's happened that kind of sucked. And it just kept sucking.

And then like we had relatives that went to the hospital and then we'd wake up and we'd get a paper rejected and it just became a thing of like, it was varying degrees of suckage, but it was true suckage. And I just was like, okay, this is starting to get a little like self fulfilling prophecy here.

So then when I went to Easter, that it was, it was a good sermon, but it was the, the guy, basically the pastor said, you know, just have a moment and like, if stuff is really bad, like, just talk, just think about it, like pray about it. And so I had a minute. Like, I. And I am not like an emotional churchgoer. I'm. I'm very Southern Baptist that way.

But I was just like bawling because I just was like, where do you want me to freaking start? Like, here we go, God. Like, this is all the things that are going on.

And so when I looked up, I looked at Stuart and he said, I just had like, I look like some sort of like rainstorm victim. Like, I know, because it just was one of those things. But I do think, like a good lament is my God moment.

Like, I think I don't participate in a good lament. And I think I just was like, it wasn't like I said, you know, change the world right now or I asked for anything wild.

I just was like, I Need you to hear me right now and know that your sister is struggling. Yeah.

That's beautiful.

I get that. You should listen to Passenger more. That's always a lament. Pretty much every song, actually.

I was on the Evangelicals or, well, the crossover.

You should actually listen to Blue Oyster Cult. I find their music affects me like a jam band.

You don't let it move you, though, do you?

No, Christian Ashley. Nothing move you. Christian Ashley. But if you, like, move us.

That's the name of his other podcast, Let nothing move you. So we have to constantly make jokes about that because we're immature.

Yep. But if you like this episode, please consider sharing it with a friend. Share with an enemy. Share with your cousins.

Especially your cousins.

Especially your cousins. Tell your enemies not to listen to it.

Yeah. I mean, maybe. I don't know.

My cousin would not like this podcast. Speaking of people you still have to.

Talk to, they'll be fine.

So go to the website, buy a shirt. That's it. That's the promo.

Buy my book when it comes out.

That's true. Where do they get it again?

You can get on Bloomsbury's website. Avoid. You know, I used to say, wherever you want to get it. But I'm going to say avoid Amazon. Let's not give that.

Yeah.

In which case, go to your public library, request them to get a copy, and more people read it. I'm just gonna keep telling people to do that because I think it's just. It's a great way of getting other books out there. Yeah.

I'll probably have, like, I'll buy a bunch and you can ask me nicely.

Nice. Also, check out the other shows on Lizzo Podcast Network. Leah is on Systematic Ecology and Theology on the Rocks. Check those out.

Also, I like saying Brandon Knight's name. Name it is.

Really.

And he has a podcast, My Seminary Life.

Brandon Knights.

Yeah. Isn't it? Yeah. The Knights of me are actually Brandon's Knights. Yeah.

I always talk about, if Stu had a better last name, I would have changed it, which is kind of rude. I mean, that's funny.

Robinson's a classic.

If I was having a kid and naming him George, I would have took my wife's last name. It's Lucas. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So. Well, yeah, there's that.

I mean, you've got, like, the Swiss Family Robinson. Like, you've got a legacy to live up to.

I was saying. I was telling Joshua how many times I've been saying Mrs. Robinson, too, is a shocking. And to have to make a face where I.

It's I act like it's the first time. Like now I'm going to get it even more. Having said that out loud.

Yeah, you just you manifested so we.

Do hope you enjoyed it. Coming up, we're going to be having Olivia Hastie on to discuss her work with the Catholic Church and ministering to those on the spectrum.

After that, we'll be interviewing Chantal Morales McKinney. Morales McKinney. I'm not sure about her new book, following Jesus Beyond Church Walls.

They were going to be having another roundtable discussion on evangelism, mission work and other means of out in beach after that. We do plan to soon begin a series on behind the scenes of ministries like publishing local church, I don't know, pew creation.

We got any pew builders reach out?

That would be cool, actually.

That would be really cool. I don't think there's a how it's made episode on pews yet.

You need a youth ministry like I did youth ministry for four years. That in itself is.

Yeah. That's wild.

You need a behind the scenes of.

That at the end of season. Of course. Right. This Chan's going to be on the show. Yeah.

He doesn't know about it though, so someone does have to tell him or maybe force him. It just depends.