Too often, schools treat difference as a problem to manage rather than a part of our shared humanity to understand and value.

In this episode, Chiara Latimer, Dr. Tanya Manning-Yarde, and Kari Elizabeth Brown join us for a deeply personal and challenging conversation about neurodiversity, discrimination, and dignity in education. Drawing from their professional expertise and lived experiences, they reveal what can happen when schools misunderstand behavior, overlook different ways of communicating, or expect neurodivergent students to conform to systems that were never designed with them in mind.

This is not simply a conversation about providing accommodations or improving programs. It is about whether every student is fully seen, heard, and treated as a human being.

Together, we examine how compliance-centered practices, institutional assumptions, and systemic barriers can diminish students’ sense of belonging and force them to continually prove that they are worthy of care, opportunity, and respect. We also consider what becomes possible when educators move beyond trying to “fix” students and instead become more curious, responsive, and willing to recognize the strengths each learner brings.

This conversation asks all of us to look closely at the environments we create and the assumptions we carry. Do our schools genuinely honor human difference, or do students still have to fight to be understood?

And what might become possible when no student is required to fight for their humanity simply to belong?

Takeaways:

• Difference is an intrinsic aspect of human existence, meriting recognition and respect.
• Educational systems often fail to embrace neurodiversity, treating difference as a deficit rather than a unique perspective.
• Neurodivergent students frequently navigate educational environments that misunderstand their needs and capabilities, compounding their challenges.
• We highlight the necessity for educators to rethink their assumptions about behavior and intelligence in order to foster inclusive learning environments.
• We assert the importance of extending dignity to all students as a fundamental right, rather than something to be earned.
• We call for a transformation in educational practices, advocating for environments that prioritize understanding and valuing each student's distinctiveness and humanity.

To learn more about the work of Dr. Tanya Manning-Yarde:

• https://whoneedsshoes.com/
• https://tmyediting.com/
• https://www.instagram.com/askwhoneedsshoes/
• https://www.youtube.com/@WhoNeedsShoes

Follow Students Matter, LLC on Instagram or LinkedIn.

Connect on LinkedIn with each of us individually: Kathy Mohney, Michael Pipa, Dr. Alicia Monroe, and Dr. Grant Chandler.

To learn more about the Students Matter Ecosystem, stop by:

Students Matter

LearnHarbor

Until next time remember: See every student. Keep your doors open and your hearts even wider.

Difference is part of being human.

And yet in too many schools and institutions, difference is still treated as something to correct, contain, or overcome.

Neurodivergent students may encounter caring people and still experience systems that misunderstand them, underestimate them, speak for them, or make them carry the burden of navigating support on their own.

So what happens when difference becomes deficit?

And what becomes possible when students no longer have to fight to prove their humanity before they can begin learning?

Today, three remarkable women join us to explore neurodiversity to discrimination, dignity, and the responsibility institutions carry to see each learner as distinctive and irreplaceable.

A new episode of the Wheelhouse begins right now.

Welcome to the Wheelhouse, where we work to keep education human, purposeful, and oriented toward what matters most.

I'm Dr. Grant Chandler, along with my amazing wheelhouse team, Kathy Mone, Michael Pipa, and Dr. Alicia Munro.

This season we've been exploring six conditions that shape the experiences of students and educators drift, fragmentation, lack of alignment, dehumanization, instructional erosion, and confusion about the future.

These conditions can sound organizational when we discuss them from a distance, but students do not experience them as organizational concepts.

They experience them in moments.

They experience them when they're misunderstood, when support is available but disconnected, when decisions are made about them without them, when their communication, behavior, bodies, identities, or ways of learning are interpreted as problems when they are asked to adapt endlessly to institutions that have made little effort to understand or adapt to them.

Today we bring guests into this season's conversation for the very first time, and we're bringing together three extraordinary returning members of the Wheelhouse community who have never before joined us at the same table.

Chiara Latimer leads the center for Neurodiversity and PATH program at Rowan University where she works to create more intentional, affirming, and connected systems of support for the long term success of each of her students.

Dr. Tanya Manning Yard joins us as both an educator, writer, editor, social media manager, and the parent of a child with special needs.

She brings a deeply personal understanding of what happens when schools fail to recognize the dignity, humanity, and potential of the children entrusted to their career.

And Carrie Elizabeth Brown is a master's level graduate of Rowan University whose journey has included devastating discrimination connected to her neurodiversity and physical challenges, and remarkable strength, persistence, and achievement in the face of it.

Each of our guests brings expertise.

It comes through professional practice, lived experience, advocacy, parenting, scholarship, and survival.

Together, we will examine what dehumanization looks and feels like, how fragmentation and misalignment allow it to persist and what humanizing support requires from educators, leaders, and institutions.

This is not simply a conversation about awareness.

It's a conversation about dignity, power, responsibility, and whether our institutions are truly prepared to honor human difference.

Let's get oriented.

Good morning.

I'm Grant Chandler, and this is another episode of the wheelhouse.

And I'm really excited to have these guests in here here today.

But before we welcome them, let me welcome part of my wheelhouse team, Kathy.

Moni.

Welcome.

Well, good morning.

Look at us.

Just.

Just you and I.

Yes.

Michael and Alicia.

I'm so good.

I'm so good.

It's on my Friday eve today, sort of.

I'm heading out for vacation this weekend.

So, you know, feeling good, but also all of the things that have to be done.

So I'm incredibly honored to just pause all of that and focus on our conversation today.

So, so glad to be here.

I have absolutely been looking forward to it.

Yes, Michael Pipa and Dr. Alicia Munro are out there in the field somewhere doing great work.

So, Kathy, it's you and me and these amazing three women that we're going to bring back to the Wheelhouse today.

You know, in the first two episodes, we named the six conditions and explored how those conditions combine to become the student experience.

Those six conditions were lack of alignment, fragmentation, drift, dehumanization, instructional erosion, and future confusion.

In episodes one and two of this season, we really tore those apart and talked about them in great detail.

These conditions can sound organizational when we discuss them from a distance.

But students don't experience them as an organizational concept.

They experience them as moments being misunderstood, excluded, underestimated, redirected, spoken over, or made to believe that who they are is incompatible with success.

Today, I'm super excited that we place real people, real genius women inside that experience and ask what those conditions actually do to human beings.

So first, before we get started, let me please welcome three people who've been on the wheelhouse before and who are coming back to share more of their brilliance.

Carrie Elizabeth Brown, kiara Latimer, and Dr. Tanya Manning Yard.

Welcome to the wheelhouse.

Thank you.

Thank you.

We are super excited to have you.

And as I was doing that little intro, our dear Wheelhouse team colleague, Dr. Monroe has popped in from somewhere out there in the world.

So, Dr. Monroe, we're glad to see you this morning.

So let's just start with this loaded question which could take us in so many interesting places.

When you hear the word dehumanization in relationship to schools and in particular to neurodivergent Learners, what does that word mean to you?

Kiara, we'll start with you.

What does that word mean to you?

When I really think about dehumanization in relation to education, and specifically, like you said, neurodivergent learners, a lot of that makes me think about removing access, removing identity, removing specific customized needs that a person exists with, right or needing.

And so a lot of times I know that it may come in two different ways, Right?

We're talking about people who may consciously be engaging in actions that may bring about dehumanization, and then individuals, of course, who are unconsciously doing those things.

But the reality is that systems are built right where one of the two is happening.

If we are not intentional about doing things differently to avoid those situations.

Thank you.

Carrie, what does.

When you hear that word dehumanization in relationship to schools, what does that word mean to you?

Dehumanization isn't always like someone being like intentionally cruel.

It's just they don't know how to look at the bigger not problem, but the bigger picture.

It's when people make decisions of trying to understand someone and when they're not understood, that's when problems occur.

When you know, me being a student and a future educator, I witnessed both.

So I, you know, it's always about learning your voice, learning to advocate for yourself or for those who need it.

So that's what I think about dehumanization.

Thank you.

And Tanya, what does that.

When you hear that word dehumanization, what does that mean to you?

It resonates with me in a really personal way, both as an educator and also as a parent, where I'm thinking of one particular experience, maybe I've shared previously, where our son was entering middle school.

And during this meeting in September of that school year, the principal had made the comment to us, quote, in my 11 years as a principal, your son is the worst.

And that then meant we had to find a different school for him, which has worked out in the grand scheme of things.

But dehumanization in the sense of some people can select that their role is to deny other people spaces that everybody should have access to, and that can then impact on intergenerational level.

I know it impacted our son and it also impacted me as his parent.

And thinking about not only my child not being welcomed in this shared space called school, but then by implication, myself as a parent as well and as a community member of this particular school, community and school district.

So dehumanizing makes me, makes to come to mind the idea people can make Choices around who can and cannot share social space and the rights that they should be afforded in that space.

So let's just take that a little bit further with another question because I think you guys are.

You're hitting it right on the head.

How do assumptions about behavior or intelligence or communication or compliance or capability shape what students receive in school?

Assumptions about behavior, intelligence, communication, compliance, or capability.

How do those assumptions shape what students receive?

So, Grant, can I say something?

Can I add another word to that?

Sure.

What about ignorance?

Because I think that's.

I mean, if we're going to call it out, it's ignorance and not the desire to learn outside of traditional norms and traditional realms and traditional perspectives.

So I know, Tanya, you were going to get ready to answer, but I did want to add that other layer to it because I think that is where we dig deep.

It's the mental models of individuals and it's our own thinking about what Carrie shared.

Right.

It's our own decision whether we want to shift those paradigms or not.

Absolutely.

Tonya, I was just going to echo around.

I think compliance sometimes gets equated in some people's minds with permission to education.

Like if you are subordinate or compliant, in particular recognized accepted behaviors, then you are entitled to this shared space at school, this particular right, such as a quality education, this recognition, such as being treated as an individual.

But if you are not compliant, that is because you are stemming or you have other sensory needs or you are not reading certain social cues in the way that you should be because you have an intellectual disability, then that becomes a tool of which you're then denied access to those things erroneously and unfairly.

Yeah.

And I would just like to just add to that, because I believe that oftentimes, going back to I believe this point that Dr. Moreau is introducing right around ignorance, that when someone does not understand what.

What behavior is occurring or why that behavior is occurring, and they begin to classify it in a specific category.

Right.

Whether that is that this behavior is in alignment.

Right.

Going back to some of the words you all mentioned, in your framework, this behavior is in alignment with what is expected in a traditional school setting, or this is the behavior that is in alignment with the way I have been trained as an educator.

And therefore my expectation is that everyone is get on board with what I expect and they call it.

Right.

Classroom management.

I'm managing my classroom.

But are we also keeping ourselves open to the fact that if I'm seeing behavior, behavior is communication as well?

I'm communicating something about what I need in this space, and it may not be communicated in the way that looks like how everyone else communicates.

But so often I see this even in higher education, where faculty and staff make assumptions about the behavior that they're seeing.

And then words like I was scared, words like I didn't know what was going to happen next start to come up.

And those are someone's emotional experiences, and we recognize that.

But if we don't take this step to become knowledgeable.

Right.

If we remain in ignorance, then we won't begin to interpret what's being communicated to us through the behaviors that we're seeing.

And therefore, that's when we have to be cautious about not causing harm to individuals because of our ignorance.

Both Tanya and Kiara both made valid points.

And coming from a student's perspective, it can be kind of intimidating to, you know, be a student when you face intellectual disabilities or even physical disabilities.

Like I stated before in a previous episode, you know, when I was in third grade, the librarian said to me, what, are you crippled?

Or something?

And that shaped my whole education perspective of I have to overcompensate over, apologize for being late or making sure I made everything just as perfect as possible as what a student is supposed to look like because of that one statement.

No, everyone doesn't have those same thoughts and opinions.

But when, as students from elementary school to even college students put their professors and teachers not on a pedestal, but they have them held to a higher standard.

So it's what they say goes what they think is the gospel, basically.

So you have no other choice but to do what they're supposed to do.

So it kind of sort of puts neurodiverse students, and even people, students in general, in a box and makes them afraid to speak what's on their minds.

As adults in an educational space, our words have power, you know, in thinking about that power over students to be able to make comments like that, Carrie, that frame your entire existence from that point forward.

You know, when Tanya mentioned, you know, experience with her son in that conversation with, you know, the educators in that space and how that then framed, okay, I have this path for my son, you know, so we think about our kind of willful ignorance as educators to.

To say things that we may think are like, oh, it's just off the cuff, it matters.

Words matter.

Those experiences matter to these human beings and their experiences that we are completely honored to have the ability to be a part of their education.

Yeah.

And what we say also impacts those who are listening.

So individuals who may need additional support, individuals who have not disclosed in their classrooms or families.

Right.

Who want to advocate for more when they hear things that are said that make it seem as though it's coming directly from a deficit approach, definitely exclusive, you know, exclusionary.

Then.

Then they choose silence.

Some of them choose silence, while others may feel empowered to advocate.

What about those who don't know what to do and had hoped that the education system would have individuals there who would say, this is what you should do next.

This is what we recommend.

And when the words that are said feel as though we don't have an ally in the education system, that we don't have educators that want to also be advocates, then we'll continue to see that groups of people will not get the type of support that they need.

And so the cycle will continue.

If we don't guard right.

The things that we say and how we communicate with not only students but also their families and where we're saying these things.

Right.

And so we need to just be on guard that everywhere we go, the way we discuss and talk about our students and their families, that also matters to those who are in front of us and those ultimately who are listening everywhere.

So in Pre K through 12, it was the onus of the school leader to set the tone in the culture of accepting and inclusivity.

So whether we start with referrals to child study team, and I've seen some say I diagnose from a teacher, I diagnose this student with ADHD and then push back and say, no, I need you to describe the behavior.

See, that's what I hear from you, Kiara.

That's what I hear from you, Tanya.

And that's what my research dictates you.

There is no one in that space except for certain members of that child study team that know DSM enough to diagnose.

Right.

So you need to tell me, when do you see it during the day, the frequency of it, what is stemming, look, sound and feel like it may.

It's different for every student.

Right.

For Tourette's, how many times does that student.

You know, it's really important that we learn to describe behaviors and not feel that we are empowered like Carrie said, to diagnose.

Because we need to understand that everybody plays a role in this and honor the fact that neurodiversity is huge and how it shows up in one individual is a different DNA in another individual.

But you have to be really set in as school leaders and educators.

Do we even have a culture that is welcoming and accepting?

I'm going to let you know, and I could literally extend it to higher ed, that some of those classrooms are really cold and they are very closed off.

I've heard faculty say, if I get another ADA acceptance form, I'm just gonna shut this down or I'm going to ignore it.

These are compliance issues.

Are we setting the culture for inclusive excellence?

So a common thread that I'm hearing from everyone is this humanization has to be earned.

So we're not being dignity conscious.

We're not recognizing that every human being, regardless of who they are or how they identify simply by being born, deserves dignity.

And what I hear from all of you, this common thread is that dignity is not being extended many times to our neurodiverse students and other students as well.

It's as if that has to that the educators often expect students and families to do something first so that it's earned, whether that is being compliant or doing this or saying this or asking about this, rather than extending dignity to every human being as a birthright.

And Carrie, you're nodding your head.

So a thought there, my friend.

Yeah, I guess my thought is just that I agree that we have to challenge ourselves on what that looks like to extend dignity and respect, because oftentimes I even remember working right with children on the spectrum and having people still speak to the adult present, but not the child.

Right.

Things as if, like, we've made an assumption that you are not welcome to be engaged in this conversation in some way.

And as professionals, especially as educators, we need to make sure that we're welcoming our students to be present in the educational environments that they're with us in that we need to make sure that we're inviting them, that we're intentionally giving them, even if it's just a moment.

I understand that everyone does not communicate the exact same way.

That doesn't mean that I shouldn't still stop, look at you and say, good morning, I'm so happy that you're here today, and not act like that can only be given to the adult present and not the child as well.

Right.

And so that's just really what I was thinking when I was nodding.

So are we designing learning so students can participate meaningfully, or are we simply rewarding those who can most easily adapt to the system that's already in place?

It's kind of an obvious question, isn't it?

Right.

Based on this conversation, what's happening a lot.

Not everywhere.

Not everywhere.

Right.

Is that we are rewarding students who can easily adapt to what it is that we already have.

You know, We've already built and we're struggling, we're struggling.

Those six conditions, lack of alignment, fragmentation, drift, dehumanization, instructional erosion and future ready confusion really come to play here because we're missing those students who want to meaningfully engage and yet we're not ready for them to meaningfully engage.

And Tanya, you're nodding your head this time, so I'm gonna do anything you wanna add?

Yeah.

In light of what we were saying about like dignity and this part of the conversation, I'm thinking about how in two instances where I saw when people were trying to learned how best to support Maceo, where he is, what that looked like.

So in his elementary setting it was.

There was an autism support classroom and compliment to the general ed.

But the kids did activities together, they went on trips together, they took music lessons together.

And if Maceo in his classes needed additional support, there was a particular music teacher would even give him additional one to one lessons accommodating his curiosity to learn music and giving him the dignity to learn it with her being his one to one teacher as compared to, well, you're stimming, you're not sitting still, you're not paying attention.

So I'm not going to pour more into you.

I'm also thinking about in terms of the dignity of learning, about the importance of adaptability whether the educational setting is a school or in a particular instance.

I'm thinking of a summer camp because as parents that's a very challenging experience.

Experience also.

And so of recent in Maceo's current summer camp experience, Mace, we wanted Maceo to be in the water and then having conversations with the staff and how best to do that.

He wouldn't go in the outdoor swimming pool because he doesn't like being outside when it's really hot.

So what they did was they took him inside to the indoor swimming pool and that's where he thrived and that's where it came from.

A conversation with us about what's the best way to go about supporting him.

Input also from his one to one and also a willingness to adapt so that the end goal could be met with dignity of Maceo learning how to swim by acclimating the conditions that he would need in order to get in the water to then begin learning the skill, which was the ultimate goal.

So that's why I'm nodding my head.

Versus forcing him into a box, right?

Nope.

This is it, this is the space.

And if he can't, if he can't attempt this, then we're simply going back to what Chiara said at the beginning, we're going to remove that access for.

Him or even deny it altogether.

Deny it, yes.

Yes.

So that's a really powerful example of an idea that I.

And a point I really wanted to make.

And so we'll do it backwards.

Right.

So there was the example that Tanya gave.

And I want you to think about this not just in terms of the summer camp thing, but think about it in terms of future readiness for a moment.

Schools often claim to prepare students for the future while holding very narrow assumptions about what independence, productivity, achievement, communication, or adulthood should look like.

And Kiara's nodding, so I'm going to.

Right.

So what possibilities.

Right.

What possibilities become available when we begin with strengths, agency and belonging rather than a deficit?

When we really adopt, right.

This neurodiversity paradigm.

Right.

When we're looking at things and we're saying that we are recognizing that human variation.

Right.

Neurological human variation has always existed.

It always will.

Right.

You'll always exist.

It's not just our students.

It's also our colleagues.

There are adults, right?

Like somehow, oh, what?

People grow up.

Surprise.

And really accepting that.

I think that also helps us to stop and really think, okay, now what do I have a responsibility to?

And that's not just to challenge my students, but to also empower them to recognize the things that are their strengths.

So we have recently started using an assessment with our students, actually called the Genius Finder Pro.

And so it's based out of the work that Nancy Doyle is doing in the United Kingdom with neurodiversity in the workplace.

But it allows students and individuals to assess themselves in several different categories, what their confidence levels are as it relates to the workplace.

And what I have found so helpful is that it also begins to give them more language about what their strengths are.

Oh, I'm actually really strong in written communication.

And now not only am I seeing that in an assessment, but in our coaching sessions and conversations now we're talking about, what does that mean?

That if you have the option to pick how you're going to communicate, you're going to try to either select and write something down and then read it.

Right.

Or go into an interview or any other avenue that you have this space to think about your future.

Right.

How do I want to communicate what I need?

I'm going to take this step because I know that this is a strength for me, and that is something that is so powerful to have to be able to answer that question.

What are your strengths?

We ask people that, but then we don't prepare them on how to answer it because we don't highlight their strengths for them.

We don't make that an intentional conversation.

And so when that becomes part of the intentionality, I often hear people caught off guard.

I was just going to say kind of bringing together Chara's ideas about intentionality and Dr. Monroe's about ignorance.

I would love if these conversations about post secondary pursuits were happening in schools as early as elementary, middle school and high school to start educating both neurotypical and neurodiverse populations of the possibilities to go to post secondary pursuits and job opportunities.

There's a lot of conversation once high school starts around, you know, job readiness, post secondary endeavors for one group of kids.

But that conversation rarely happens unless you're a parent that's really cognizant of that's a possibility for my child.

And then even if it isn't per se, because you know, it's a mind shift, we even have to do as parents, like who do I talk to?

Then find out what is possible in terms of programs and accommodations because there's a college for everybody, you know what I mean?

So I would really, in speaking to both that intentionality and ignorance if there were pipelines that could begin being built within school districts.

In the elementary school where someone like Kiara comes in and says, hey, I'm so and so and I'm from.

How many of you have even heard of the word college?

Well, this is what you do in college.

And, and for the kids who are neurodiverse and that has not even conceptually been in their thinking or even introduced to them, therein lies the seed that it starts.

And that's something just like we have at these annual assemblies our kids have to attend.

You know, why not have that as an integral part of all of our kids journeys and experiences so that that is something that it becomes a of part of our possibilities way earlier than once our children reach 14.

And then you have to start the transitional plan and it becomes a matter of fact also for our neurotypical kids so that they can begin to realize, you know, neurotypical, neurodiverse, we're all entitled to having a mindfulness and intentionality about where we can be after our schooling and our education.

But we need to have people around us affirming that possibility and starting those conversations earlier, which then speaks to what Dr. Monroe was saying around how to try to disrupt that ignorance.

You can't say to somebody, you're the worst student I've ever had and in turn think that that is okay to put in the room with other educators, as if that's supposed to be the inevitable manifestation of what you said as compared to other voices coming into play much earlier.

When statements like that are made, you already have other statements and possibilities that are already present and available to consider beyond that level of ignorance.

Tanya, I literally just published an article in Career Developments magazine that really offers a framework of exactly what you're stating.

And I will share that article with you.

It talks about Pre K through 20 pathways for career readiness, where we highlight milestones from pre K all the way until lifestyles and career choices after college and what are those instrumental steps and who's involved in that and how we need to be intentional around that.

And just within that framework, I've been able to share that internationally with several who are really looking at what is this trajectory for students starting much earlier, because we do have it.

We just don't connect the dots.

So I will share that article with you because there is a lot of conversations just around that.

And therefore the framework and the research takes it to another level.

I just wanted to.

I wanted to pull Carrie into this conversation.

And I want to celebrate.

First, I want to celebrate her master's degree.

Right.

Wow.

And all of the fine work that she has done in her undergraduate degree, in her coaching with other students, and in the amazing accomplishment that she has with her master's degree and thinking about what she's going to do next.

But also, as I say that, and I also want to go back to for just a moment, but I want to tap into Carrie, that little third grader who was so horrifically disrespected many, many years ago and kind of juxtapose that horrific level of disrespect with your accomplishments.

Ha ha.

The joke's on her.

I mean, yeah, the joke's on her, right?

This was in 96.

So we talking about 20 years ago now.

We're talking a ways.

But I just want to think about what would carry.

And I know you probably did experience this as well, but if you had never experienced that horrific level of disrespect, but you only experienced people recognizing your strengths, your agency, and assuring that you felt like you belonged to in your schooling experience, would that journey have been different?

I believe so, yes.

How so?

I wouldn't have been labeled as someone with a disability because there was no.

The term neurodivergent wasn't around in 90 something.

So I would just be labeled as someone with a disability.

Um, I wouldn't have had, like, I felt like I had a bullseye on my back.

Oh, you know, and I know people talk.

So if she said that in front of me and other little.

Other kids, who's not to say the kids went back and, you know, talked to their mom or dad or then, you know, even amongst the teacher's lounge, you know, that's how I was thinking, you know, the teacher's lounge, you know, and it was.

It's just an eye opener because it made me realize that maybe I didn't belong.

I didn't belong.

You know, my mom always.

She was a very strong advocate for me.

She made sure I was in the normal population.

I wasn't in, like, you know, special needs class or, you know, But I always felt like after that, I had to prove a point and make it.

Like, I always wanted to be liked.

I always became a teacher's pet because I just wanted everyone to see that I was normal with a physical disability, which eventually became to a neurological disability.

Like, you know, so it's just rough.

So what you're seeing, Carrie, talk about is what it feels like to go to school with a bullseye on your back, right?

That you feel as if.

And don't let me put words in your mouth, Carrie.

I'm just trying to extrapolate what you.

Right.

That it's like I have to prove myself worthy when it should be the other way around.

Right.

The educational system should prove their worthiness to support you.

When you gave us these questions, it made me dive deeper and just made me think of our perspective.

I have an instance.

We don't have time, but I have an instance where I was called out or belittled in every aspect of my education, from elementary, middle school, high school, associate's degree, undergrad degree, master's degree.

Okay, so it goes.

It's like it just doesn't just happen in one specific area.

It happened in every area of my life in school.

And it shapes you to the.

It shaped me to be the person that I am.

And that's why, I guess I'm really strong about advocating for those who don't feel like they don't have a voice.

And because I've lived through it, you know, I've lived through different, you know, eras of life, you know, the millennials, the whatever, Gen Z, whatever this day and so forth.

I'm taking my experience as a millennial in the 90s, knowing how to approach it, and then just now adapting to the new policies and everything that we're going through in this current Day and.

As a mom, with knowing that your son just started preschool and how that is really gonna impact your advocacy for not only for your child, but every other child that.

That you come in contact throughout his educational journey.

So when you think about the sphere of influence that you have in this advocacy and how it matters, so your presence, just like every other adult's presence, matters.

And so thinking about our responsibility as educators and humanizing education, seeing our students as humans, listening, understanding, and if we don't know, if we have that level of ignorance, it can't be willful.

So I don't know everything there is to know about how to best support every child.

So it is my responsibility then to ask for that assistance, to say to my leader, I don't know what to do.

Where do I go?

How do I learn?

What do we do?

I cannot just ignore and be willfully ignorant.

And that's where the empathy comes in.

Because a lot of these educators lack empathy.

They lack that you taking the initiative an extra step to wanting to help.

And I think that they need to be reminded that what we have talked about is that there are people who are struggling and don't know what to do.

But there are some who are experts in what they are doing because they remain curious about their students.

They ask questions consistently.

They evaluate the work that they're doing.

They're looking for strong outcomes and results.

They are not too proud to say, I tried that and it did not work so well.

I have had that instance myself.

I laughed at my own self when I was like, I didn't even give this person a task list.

They don't know what to do.

They're running around saying, I don't know what to do today.

Has anyone seen Kiara?

She was supposed to tell me what to do.

And here I am thinking, telling other people, right?

This is how you set up a neuro inclusive internship experience.

And I'm in a meeting that ran late, and my own intern was like, what am I supposed to do?

So we have to stop and check ourselves and also be like, you know what?

Hey, recognize I made a mistake today.

I dropped the ball today.

And that impacted you.

You became anxious because I didn't set the list.

You didn't do anything wrong, right?

All of that making sure that we're owning those moments and going to those individuals that we're trying to support and being really clear also with our colleagues, our supervisors, our principals.

You know, I'm a person.

As Carrie said, we're human and we have to have the grace for our students, but also the grace for ourselves to be able to say, I need help or I messed up today and I want to do better.

That's so valuable to hear from the parents side also because when working with educators who are willing to say I'm vulnerable, I don't know.

You're the expert on this child.

Let me bring you into the conversation, let me ask you questions.

And I think that's one of the things that has helped to make with Maceo's situation now in this new school, the dialogic possibilities that manifest.

Because every week we talk with his teacher and his BCBA and also periodically his speech occupational therapist to have the conversations incrementally.

What are you seeing?

What do you have questions about?

Also celebrate like, you know, the things that are done well.

Let's figure out ways to replicate it.

We don't always have the conversation only when stuff is hitting a fan.

No parent wants to only have a hear from an educator when things are going wrong, what's going right?

Awesome.

Let's try to support.

Support you at home with that.

And that curiosity that leads to that dialogic inclusivity has made all the difference in one may feel being treated with dignity and as a human being.

And two, on our end, we're helping educators who feel vulnerable feel validated that that's what we want you to do.

Ask questions, not make assumptions.

And we're here to support you in your journey as a learner and in how to treat and support not only our child, but children in this community as well.

What's one thing educators should either start doing immediately or stop doing immediately when it comes to better serving our neurodivergent student population, Check themselves.

So checking yourselves can help and can stop the problem?

You could say that even louder.

Carrie, it's okay.

Check yourself.

Leave your biases at the door.

That's huge.

That's huge.

Chiara.

I would say something I start doing.

I think some people who are doing things well are too quiet about it because it's common for people to want to talk about the struggle, the difficulty.

Oh, it's so hard.

And there's so many accommodations and I'm so overwhelmed by the process.

And you know, we had this and that and this meeting and all of those things.

But there are people who do the work that they do because they love it.

And sometimes that can get really drowned out and silenced because of so many people who still have so much to learn.

And so I would like to challenge those who know that they're doing Good work.

To be proud of the work that they're doing and to speak to that, to speak up about it.

And as Tonya said, you know, about how early you can talk about some of these things that we're mentioning, you know, not putting a limit on it.

So I would say, like, start talking earlier, right?

Start stand up and be proud of what you're doing and allow other people to know that you have some solutions, right?

Not all, but you have some recommendations, some solutions that they can start implementing.

I would say build allyships with parents.

Sometimes we're brought in where we have to come in because something went wrong and now something is very bad, and now we need to have that conversation.

But we can be having conversations as soon as our child is enrolled in your class.

And we can be treated as allies to build bridges of understanding to one another.

Us from understanding from you as the educator, you understanding from us as the parent, and us making mutual understandings as a way to build community around each of our children.

And I think if, if educators will allow themselves the humility to ask questions, therein lies the greatest growth for themselves as well as then by implication extension, the growth for the children that are in their classrooms as well.

I love that.

Kathy.

Alicia, I'm a parent as well, and thinking about my children are, you know, adults and out of or beyond the, the Pre K20.

But thinking about the experiences along the way and the conversations that were had to be able to say, okay, you know, to my child, have a really great day, close the door behind you, because I need to have this conversation with a teacher that it was like, you did not just say what you said and in front of my child and all things so that check yourself.

And to be able to really have that partnership with parents from the onset and how absolutely imperative that is, along with Kiara saying, speak up, be proud, you know, you're doing.

For those educators that are doing phenomenal work, we need to hear your voices.

The other ones, the negativity is drowning that out.

It's making it appear as though education is this space nobody wants to go into.

And oh, you want to be a teacher?

Don't do that.

There's so much value and honor and this love for humanity that so many educators have.

Speak up.

So all of the above.

That's my all of the above, says Katie Monique.

All of the above.

Yes, yes, yes.

Alicia.

So I'm a passionate advocate and champion in a neurodiversity space.

So I'm in a call out kind of area.

So my One offering is to identify and own your ignorance and grow, because I look at the statistics and the data, and it's dismal.

So we owe it to all students to be inclusive and really inclusive by first checking our own mental models and perceptions and being accountable to those students by being willing enough to grow and shift so that we are truly, intentionally inclusive.

As we wrap up this amazing episode of the Wheelhouse, as Kiara was speaking and she used the word accommodate, and it prompted me to think about, I want to move the conversation.

And she wasn't.

I'm only responding to the word, not what she said, because what she said is brilliant.

And I want to take it one step even further.

And I want us to move.

I think we should move beyond this word accommodate.

We should stop thinking.

And Kiara's.

She's nodding her head.

We gotta stop thinking about accommodating students and start treating them like the human beings they deserve to be treated like.

Right?

That is their birthright.

And so I want to end this conversation first by saying thank you to these amazing powerhouse women, Tanya Manningard, Carol Adamer, and Carrie Elizabeth Brown.

Thank you for returning to the Wheelhouse, Kathy, Alicia, as always, but I want to leave us with this question.

I want you to think about this wheelhouse listeners for the next week until we come back together again.

What becomes possible when a student no longer has to fight to prove their humanity before they can begin learning?

I just want to say that again as we wrap up this episode, right?

Alicia's applauding.

She's screaming in the background.

You can't see that, of course.

What becomes possible when a student no longer has to fight to prove their humanity before they can begin learning?

And my dearest friends and colleagues and listeners worldwide, we'll see you next time in the Wheelhouse.

Perhaps the most important lesson from today's conversation is that dehumanization does not begin only when someone acts with deliberate cruelty.

It can begin when difference is repeatedly misunderstood.

It can begin when compliance is valued more than communication, when support is fragmented across people and offices, when students and families are forced to connect pieces that institutions should have connected for them, when lowered expectations are mistaken for care, and when a person must continually explain, defend, or prove their right to participate fully in their own education.

Neurodivergent students should not have to become experts in institutional navigation simply to access the learning, relationships, opportunities, and dignity they deserve.

And the presence of services does not necessarily mean that a person experiences support.

Humanizing schools and institutions require more than just good intentions.

They require alignment.

They require listening.

They require educators and leaders who are willing to question their assumptions, confront harmful practices, and design environments in which difference informs our work rather than disqualifies people from it.

Most of all, they require us to recognize that every student is distinctive and irreplaceable, not despite the ways they experience the world, but as the whole person they already are.

Our deepest thanks to Kiara Latimer, Dr. Tanya Manningard, and Carrie Elizabeth Brown for trusting us again with their wisdom, their experiences, their and their truth.

And thank you to the entire Wheelhouse team, Kathy Mone, Michael Pipa, and Dr. Alicia Munro, for continuing to make conversations like this not just possible, but our norm.

Until next time, remember, the question is not whether neurodivergent students are ready to belong in our schools and institutions.

The question is whether our schools and institutions are ready truly to belong to them.

Stay oriented.

We'll see you next week in the Wheelhouse.