In this episode Jesse interviews Desmond about his upgrading practices to stop using grades to have power over students but create a classroom culture increase learning through enriching classroom experiences. Desmond talks about the joyful mess of this process and in this short bonus episode there are many gems. So many gems we had to contemplate in silence and not lay down our usual freestyle at the end. Ha. Enjoy!

03:02 Desmond "We want there to be an objective measurement of learning, however when you start diving deep into what learning is... the learning experience is inherently a personal one. And there is no real way for me to know actually know what a student has learned. I know what they choose to show, I know what they choose to do.... and I can make a judgement that they've learned something based on that. But the actual experience of them learning and internalizing that connection is ultimately theirs.

04:36 Desmond "I noticed I was holding back creative ideas and insights that could really make a difference for students because I wasn't going to grade it. If I'm not going to grade it then what is the incentive for them to do it? I'm giving them less than my best creative thinking because I'm trying to manage my work load of all I'm trying to do. Then when I did my little tricks of like alright I'm going to make you think I'm grading this even when I'm just grading a small piece of this... it didn't feel right.

05:36- Desmond "It got to the point where I'm like alright, I'm not doing my best work and I'm not liking the dynamics it creates amongst students with myself. And I also don't like the effect it creates on students."

06:22- Desmond "I would create a system where I would try to promote action and thought from my students. As long as I had the power to evaluate their work and have real outcomes for them, they were trying to figure out the cheat code to get the A and not actually learn."

06:45- Jesse "What I hear you saying is that grading was preventing a depth of learning. For genius to awaken, to get into the meat of learning, was prevented by grading."

07:00- Desmond- "I want to be very clear when I say grading, I mean when you get a whole bunch of assignments ini,ts when the only feedback your giving is a number. They can't do anything about that. There is a lot of work of being done to put the check marks into the system...and the feedback on the paper is greatly ignored because students are conditioned to only look for the grade."

07:54- Jesse "How would you describe upgrading for our listeners?"

8:00-9:26 Desmond answers the question...

08:25- Desmond the feedback you give is specific to what you see in the work... talk to me about your process... learn through the mistake... mistakes are necessary for learning...

09:25- Jesse "In your class how is this process facilitated?"

09:34 Desmond- "For me, I'm okay with the messiness.... There is what I'm actually doing and there is what I want to change as I get further along in the process of it... A lot of self reflection, the grade comes from students, we do self evaluation. Students assign themselves a grade based on the work they've done, what I'm calling the process portfolio... I would rather document that they are engaged in the class and thinking...

12:23- Desmond "The accountability comes in through frequent reflection... I give them guided reflections to probe them deep into their self awareness."

13:47- Des- I have a process where students post questions to a service called Packback. Which focuses on inquiry. Shoutout to Packback. They post one question and respond to two. Thats minimum. I say minimum is average and average a C. 'your still using that grading language?' A little bit because they are still in it.

14:33- Desmond "We've trained them with escapism; the game they (students) are playing is what is the least I need to do to get the maximum result. I give them the minimum and tell them that the minimum is average. What I'm trying to do pry into their brain is that if you can do more, do more... because that is what gets you the best results... That is criteria. I hit them with that a bit into our journey.

15:40- Desmond "Its training at this point, its training them to get into different habits, if you want best results in your life, then you have to do more than just the minimum."

15:55 Jesse "This reminds me of a poem by M.K. Asante who is the author of Its Bigger Than Hip Hop. He has a poem called 2 set of Notes

16:30- 2 B.A.R.S. Guided mediation

18:48- Desmond- "When I say the minimum is a C and you are grading yourself, I'm priming it into your brain, 'well shoot, I want an A, but all I did was the minimum.' Thats the key, and when I ask you questions like, 'how did you push yourself?' in the reflection... the criteria is in the questions I'm asking in the reflection."

19:39- Jesse "What have you seen are the benefits and challenges being two years in?"

19:46 Desmond "Benefits is that I can really spend my time prepping an enriching learning experience because I'm not saddled by having to go over absolutely everything and put numbers on it. I can look at their work, take it in a human being and deliver honest feedback directly to the student or the class as a whole, that is more thoughtful then what I was doing in the past. Sometimes experience is the feedback, and their work can guide future learning experiences."

21:00 Desmond "The I create experiences and provide material to guide based off where they want to go. From a real place of 'I want to learn.' not 'I just want to get through the class.' There is a shift that needs to take place from all those years of escapism. Once we make that shift... they experience the joy of developing their own ideas and their own creativity."

22:06 Desmond- "Student anxiety is lower around it. There are other things I do around it, its not just that I upgrade and yea!....

22:16 Desmond- "I would say for me and the ungrading practices, it freed up a lot of time, attention and energy for the real work of crafting and experience that really allows students to learn."

22:33 Jesse "What's been student feedback so far?"

23:20 Jesse "Thats inspiring.. the possibilities that can exist in a classroom if we get curious enough to get outside the box a little bit and be willing to take a risk."

23:57 Desmond "Quarantine was the tipping point to go all the way with the upgrading."

24:43 Desmond "Ultimately it came down to the experience- 'I have less conversations with students about a letter, and more conversations about an idea, a skill or something that they are interested in that comes up from the experience in the class. And more conversations about their life."

26:10 Desmond "What some students do, what some people do is think, 'I'm not doing well in this domain so thus I'm going to de value what it is to justify my choice to do something else.' "

26:29 Jesse "How do you see upgrading connecting to systems thinking and 'real life'?

26:42 Desmond "The question comes up what if we were all upgrading...Trauma aside- mostly all students want to learn and feel capable; What do we need a grading system for to enforce that? To hold them in on it. we say, 'If you don't do this it will effect your grade.'.... What if we release that?... The control and power always lies within the student...

28:07 Desmond "I don't think we do a service in todays world by trying to control students power with arbitrary standards.... If you competence then the skill of self evaluation is key. The skill of motivation is key. Self awareness is key... I did this work now reflect on the process. From a systems perspective it shifts us towards the growth of our students and less the measurement of our students."

29:06 Jesse "What if over the course of high school... from freshman to senior year your got used to ungrading... what if you learn that self awareness, that self evaluation, the joy of learning, the community, your getting feedback, your giving feedback out, your making as many mistakes as you can to learn and grow as a human being and that was the impetus?

29:40 Desmond "Going in this whole idea of Worth Work and building worth is that we start to feel we don't have enough worth when we don't measure up to somebody else's expectations. And that's what our grading system does. Thats what creates all this anxiety...

30:30 Jesse "Its important to stop and reflect on our trajectory, the hill we're climbing, what we're asking students to do and what is really worth pursuing? What is this human experience really about? What do we want to draw out of it?

31:00 Desmond "The challenges is trying to craft one experience in the class that meets all the students needs. That is messy and difficult. Thats another episode- the art- How do I create an experience that allows students to feel a part of the class and connected to what we're doing but have enough autonomy for them to do their individual work... This has always been the challenge... but by doing upgrading then I'm focusing on it more and I'm seeing the complexities in it. There is an urge to go back to the simple solution, 'okay for you how about I do grade you' because if they aren't engaging... then do I for you?"

32:41 Desmond "I'm forging ahead even though there are not a lot of models for what I'm doing."