Shownotes
In this episode of Good Enough Counsellors, Josephine Hughes talks with therapist Elizabeth Turp about the realities of running a private practice while managing a chronic illness. Elizabeth shares her personal journey, the unique challenges therapists with energy-limiting conditions face, and how she’s adapted her practice to prioritise well-being. We discuss the importance of boundaries, pricing, pacing, and self-care - without the guilt. This episode will also help those therapists who have caring responsibilities alongside their private practice - and contains insights into well-being and handling world news.
Takeaways:
- The challenges of private practice with a chronic illness
- Setting boundaries to avoid burnout
- Pricing and sustainability for therapists with limited capacity
- How pacing and planning can help maintain stability
- Finding support and supervision that truly understands
Elizabeth Turp MBACP (Accred.) is a writer, podcaster and artist. A counsellor since 1998, her lived experience makes her passionate about helping people with disabling chronic illnesses navigate life and work and improve their physical and emotional wellbeing. She specialises in helping people with chronic invisible illness, including consultation for counsellors living with energy-limiting chronic conditions. Please connect on LinkedIn.
Visit her website here for articles and her book: Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Me: Support for Family and Friends
Find The How We Care podcast here
Setting up in private practice? Download my free checklist HERE
Need ideas for how to get clients? Download my free handout 21 Ways for Counsellors to Attract New Clients HERE
You can also find me here:
The Good Enough Counsellors Facebook Group
Josephine Hughes on Facebook
Josephine Hughes on YouTube
My website: josephinehughes.com
The information contained in Good Enough Counsellors is provided for information purposes only. The contents of this podcast are not intended to amount to advice and you should not rely on any of the contents of this podcast. Professional advice should be obtained before taking or refraining from taking any action as a result of the contents of this podcast.
Josephine Hughes disclaims all liability and responsibility arising from any reliance placed on any of the contents of this podcast.
chronic fatigue syndrome, invisible disability, therapist self-care, working with chronic illness, private practice challenges, coping strategies for chronic fatigue, boundaries in therapy, burnout prevention for therapists, chronic illness support, pricing for therapy services, chronic illness in the workplace
Transcripts
Nobody really believes me because I look well, I am fit.
Speaker A:I defy all expectations of someone who says they are ill, as ill as I say I am, and I am because they can't see it.
Speaker A:And so over many years of therapy and understanding the world, I do now understand that that doesn't mean people don't love me or want to believe me.
Speaker A:It's that they're a human being and their brain looks at things and assesses them.
Speaker A:And what I say and what I do and look like do not fit together.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Welcome to the Goodenough Counsellors Podcast and today I am delighted to welcome Elizabeth Turp.
Speaker B:So Elizabeth has worked as a therapist for over 25 years and, and she's also got her own podcast called How We Care and a book published by Jessica Kingley called Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Me Support for Family and Friends.
Speaker B:Her book offers insights into how CFS and me affects individuals and provides advice on supporting them.
Speaker B:So Elizabeth co hosts the How We Care podcast, which features monthly conversations between helping professionals about the challenges they face, self care strategies and ways to enhance her effectiveness.
Speaker B:I've introduced you, but you know, is there anything you wanted to add to the, to the introduction?
Speaker A:Well, yeah, it's a lot, isn't it?
Speaker A:I think every time I do something I realize how much I have done.
Speaker A:And the reason I sort of got in touch with you about possibly talking to you is relevant to that because it's about.
Speaker A:When I listen to your podcast, it's absolutely wonderful.
Speaker A:But with a lot of things in life I often have to reflect on.
Speaker A:Well, there's certain ways that a lot of people work in private practice that people like me with chronic conditions can't do.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so I reflect a lot on that and then I have managed to do a lot, but I've done it in a very different way.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:To maybe the average person.
Speaker A:Although I was talking to my supervisor yesterday and she has a huge estimate of.
Speaker A:She, she reckons as much as 70% of counsellors have a chronic condition.
Speaker C:Really?
Speaker A:Which is really interesting.
Speaker A:I should suppose I should clarify.
Speaker A:So when I say chronic condition, I specifically work with invisible energy limiting disabling illnesses.
Speaker A:So obviously there's a lot of invisible disability out there.
Speaker A:There's a lot of chronic illnesses.
Speaker A:I work specifically and I have had myself illnesses that really affect your functioning.
Speaker A:So you know, you can't work full time, you know, there's possibly pain, there's fatigue, you know, fluctuating illnesses.
Speaker A:And so I specialize in that with my clients.
Speaker A:But I Also help occasionally help other counsellors who are working like me, trying to work and trying to build their businesses whilst living with a chronic condition.
Speaker A:Because as I say, you have to do it in quite a different way.
Speaker B:Yes, I think that would be a really interesting thing to talk about some more and maybe the lessons that you've learned that have been meant that you've been able to still offer a private practice and offer work because I know it can be difficult, can't it, for say, consistency of seeing clients if you're actually suffering with illness?
Speaker B:And I know this can be.
Speaker B:When I've seen people on the good Enough Counsellors page talking about it, they can feel very guilty, can't they, if they have to cancel clients because they're not feeling well that particular day.
Speaker B:I don't know if that's something that you've experienced.
Speaker A:Well, for myself and I see those conversations quite a lot as well and you're right, it is really, really difficult.
Speaker A:I don't know, I suppose I was thinking about how do I talk about this, not make it too much about myself because the whole point of this is that everyone's an individual and everyone with a chronic condition is different and has different experience.
Speaker A:Maybe if I just quickly put my experience into context and then get to what you've just said, which is really important.
Speaker A:So I was walking along this morning thinking what we might talk about and one thing that popped into my mind was oh, wasn't it lucky that I got seriously ill when I was already established in my profession And I have thought that before, I mean it's a bit sick and twisted but I was really lucky because I was already in the nhs.
Speaker A:I'd been working there.
Speaker A:I don't know, I'm not very good with time but like maybe four years.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, you know, it was full.
Speaker A:I was lucky enough.
Speaker A:This was a very long time ago by the way, when there wasn't iapped it was all counseling.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I got this wonderful full time job.
Speaker A:It was really great place to start out and I got sick after I'd been there a while so I had a really solid base of support at that time.
Speaker A:I had good manager and all that and so I navigated that.
Speaker A:So I dropped my hours down, went part time.
Speaker A:I tried to work out how to live with chronic illness.
Speaker A:I'm not going to get into too much about my particular illnesses because again it's, that's about me.
Speaker A:But suffice to say I got an illness which I now realize I only got because I had another undiagnosed illness, so it's been very messy, but that's not so relevant.
Speaker A:But anyway, so I navigated that.
Speaker A:I landed at a place where I was able to work three days a week, but I was still quite sick.
Speaker A:Carried on doing that, then I got another illness, then I had some operations, then I then Iapped came in.
Speaker A:So in this whole process, half my career in the NHS was in a counseling service, half of it was in Ielts.
Speaker A:So that kind of brought additional challenges and after another few years, I actually left and went to work in private practice again.
Speaker A:I won't get into that too much, but in that process, I feel like I already was in the work and I already absolutely loved the work, so I feel like that was a really big motivation for me to find a way to do it in a different way.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Does that make sense?
Speaker B:Yeah, it does.
Speaker B:It makes perfect sense.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because I think if I hadn't had that, I don't know how I would have got through it.
Speaker B:Well, it sounds like it was.
Speaker A:It was horrific.
Speaker A:Well, it still is quite bad, but that's like.
Speaker A:I still have bad health problems now, but because of all that, because of the journey and because of the relative security at the beginning of my illnesses.
Speaker A:And then by the time I left the nhs, I had a good, solid experience, I had accreditation, I didn't.
Speaker A:I didn't know what the hell was going to happen, because it's a leap of faith, isn't it?
Speaker A:But luckily, because I already had solid basis, I did actually get some work and I was able to build up.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because I was going to say, it must have been quite a challenge, you know, when you first started up in private practice, if you were at that point sort of navigating your illness as well, because, like you say this, the energy levels must be quite challenging.
Speaker A:But I think because I'd already been working only part time for several years, and when, you know, another good thing that happened is, you know, maybe everyone doesn't experience it good, but obviously when you set your practice up, it has to be a gradual process.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because no one's going to wake up one day with a full caseload, are they?
Speaker A:So I.
Speaker A:I saved up some money, so I.
Speaker A:I just very, very slowly did all the things you've got to do and then I started.
Speaker A:So I was quite fortunate in that way, because that natural, gentle build was really good, because it meant I could adapt and, like, learn, find my own feet.
Speaker A:And because you've got complete control in private practice, which also you haven't got in employment.
Speaker A:I could work out what, what was my actual optimum working pattern.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, so whereas in the nhs, I mean it was really well supported and they allowed me to do things differently.
Speaker A:But you are there X amount of hours on the days that you work there.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Whereas when I went private practice, I could work less hours, I could have bigger breaks between clients.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:There's so many ways that I've created that I've kind of learned over time is what I need in order to function.
Speaker A:That was actually.
Speaker A:I haven't really thought of it in this much detail.
Speaker A:This is actually useful for me.
Speaker A:Reflect on it.
Speaker A:Well, that was also a reason that I've managed to make my business work because of that like way that you have to do it.
Speaker B:So sort of what for people like me who, you know, I have rude health, shall we say so, you know, and a lot of energy.
Speaker B:So I'm sort of like, you know, that's why I was so interested in having you to come on the podcast as well, because I thought ye, you know, it's a really useful thing to have because, you know, I am very sort of health privileged, I guess you could say.
Speaker B:What sort of like adaptations have you made that support you?
Speaker B:It might just sort of come like you might be difficult to think of them, but.
Speaker A:Oh, there's so many.
Speaker B:Yeah, go on.
Speaker A:Hard to not think, say too many actually.
Speaker A:Well, I mean one of them is the most, maybe the most important one, and this is what we talk about all the time on our podcast, is about how.
Speaker A:I'm not going to say self care because self care is now a dirty word because it's associated with capitalist buying things.
Speaker A:I'm going to use the word well being.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But people will know what I'm talking about.
Speaker A:Fun, like fundamental well being practices are completely embedded in my weekly routine.
Speaker B:Yeah, go on.
Speaker A:There's no arguments.
Speaker A:They're like.
Speaker A:And okay, so what I'm talking about here is exercise or movement.
Speaker A:Obviously everybody's different with what they're able to do.
Speaker A:Sleep, rest, like chunks of time where there is nothing in my diary is blocked out as to have nothing in my diary.
Speaker A:And I think I evolved this as my private practice grew because I used to be someone who would do everything.
Speaker A:I mean a lot of people who end up with really difficult chronic conditions are people that used to do everything.
Speaker A:That's a whole other story.
Speaker A:But you know, I would be someone who wouldn't stop in the past, you know, in order to survive and continue to work that had to change and I'm really grateful that it did.
Speaker A:So that means that in my week I've got loads of chunks of time where if somebody gets in touch with me and says, can I have a meeting with you?
Speaker A:Or someone's just asked me to do some research and I can't do it in the times they can do it, so I'm not going to do it, you know, or if a client wants me to see them in a time that I don't normally work, I'm not going to do it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And that might sound really hard faced and you know, but actually if I don't have that kind of boundaried organized structure to my week, I won't be able to work.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it's not, it's not a negotiable thing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You have to do that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I don't mean there's not any flexibility.
Speaker A:There absolutely is.
Speaker A:But like I work on maximum clients per day.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Not this is my working day because I'm lucky enough to have a room that I, that I could potentially use all day and all night.
Speaker A:So that's, that requires a lot, a lot of.
Speaker B:No, no, I'm not going to do it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it does, it does change over time.
Speaker A:So I.
Speaker A:Another aspect of this which is important is having a supervisor who also has chronic conditions who gets it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Who really.
Speaker A:I enlist her every time I see her.
Speaker A:I'm like, this is the amount of clients I said I was going to stick to to.
Speaker A:And I'm obviously doing it myself, but I'm making her check me basically because that can change, you know, over.
Speaker A:Not over short amounts of time obviously, because most of my clients are long term.
Speaker A:But like at the moment, for example, I only see 12 people a week maximum.
Speaker B:That's still quite a lot though, isn't it?
Speaker A:I think it is.
Speaker B:That's almost a full practice, I think, for some people.
Speaker A:Well, yeah, I suppose that's, that's debatable, isn't it?
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker A:But that might, that's probably, that's evidence more of how well I've, how good I am at managing my illness though.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, because another thing that I was gonna say, and it links back to the question that led me to tell you all this is how do you manage it when you've got a fluctuating condition?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I, I've got, I'm at a point now where I'm so good at managing my health problems that I don't tend to take time off sick now that is the case for a lot of people with chronic illnesses, by the way.
Speaker A:A lot of people.
Speaker A:Employers will say, well my chronically ill staff take less sick leave than most people.
Speaker A:But that's actually because this is very sad story.
Speaker A:But it's actually because if you've got a chronic condition of the type I'm talking about, you feel ill all the time.
Speaker A:So your tolerance of feeling ill is so high that you know the way that people can feel on a day to day basis.
Speaker A:If you, someone in rude health felt like that, you'd be in the, in your bed going, I'm dying.
Speaker A:Like it's that bad.
Speaker A:So you know, because you adapt to that.
Speaker A:And, and there's so much complexity in this.
Speaker A:Because what I don't mean is you should be pushing yourself when you, when you should.
Speaker A:That's a whole other.
Speaker A:It's not that at all.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's used to a tolerance.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Of a baseline of, of not greatness.
Speaker A:And then.
Speaker A:So if you, if you're able to learn how to pace things really, really well and I don't know, there's all sorts of strategies I use for that.
Speaker A:Like I have a minimum of half an hour between clients I have.
Speaker A:Ideally I have like equal amount in the morning and then after lunch with a break, you know.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's all kinds of things like that, which you cannot do if you're in an agency necessarily because you've got put them all in, haven't you?
Speaker A:Yeah, you know, there's all sorts of things like that.
Speaker A:So for me, and this is not the case for lots of people with chronic conditions, for me, I don't really have time off sick.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:For my chronic condition it's going to make it sound like I'm not that ill, which I'm, you know, but that's not true.
Speaker B:Like it's sort of like you've developed a coping strategy over time, haven't you?
Speaker A:But what it does mean is that.
Speaker A:And people not going to like this.
Speaker A:If you want to be able to run a private practice that provides like stability for clients, which is really important when you're working with people who've got attachment problems and things like that, you actually have to plan it based on your worst level of health.
Speaker B:Oh, that's.
Speaker A:And that's quite depressing because some people listening to this will have a really bad worst level of health, a pretty bad baseline, but then a really bad worst level of health.
Speaker A:So I mean, so that might not be true for everybody and then maybe people that can't get to that level and they have to sometimes cancel their clients and that'll be what works for them.
Speaker A:But for me, the way I manage mine at the moment is to only book what I know I can do.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And be really careful because I feel.
Speaker A:I don't know what you feel as a counsellor, but I feel like the difference between the right amount of work and too much work can be as little as one or two clients a week.
Speaker B:Yeah, I agree with you.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So I have to be very careful because.
Speaker A:I don't know, earlier last year I was doing 15 a week, for example.
Speaker C:Too many.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, it wasn't too many then.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But it is too many now.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:Because I've been waiting to see a consultant for, like, three years and, you know, like.
Speaker A:So I'm in a place of waiting for more help.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I have to be bringing it down just to make sure I can keep earning and.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because the other side of it, you know, I.
Speaker A:I feel is doing the work I do stops my mental health from being too badly affected by my physical health, if that makes sense.
Speaker A:So I can keep actually doing something useful.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Occupied and distracted, stuff like.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because I think that's a really.
Speaker B:I mean, you know, obviously I haven't suffered a chronic condition, but I'm aware, sort like if I do start feeling ill, you know, how your focus goes there.
Speaker B:And there was just something I read or heard you say about how it's almost overwhelming, isn't it, when you start to suffer with a chronic condition and it feels like, you know, effectively, it's almost like you've lost everything, your life.
Speaker A:Sometimes you have.
Speaker A:I mean, sometimes.
Speaker A:Sometimes people get so close to the edge.
Speaker A:I mean, I did.
Speaker A:And again, I'm not going to get into detail because it's not.
Speaker A:It's not relevant for other people's stories.
Speaker A:But, you know, there was points that.
Speaker A:During which I thought I was going to never be able to work again.
Speaker A:And that does happen with people with, like.
Speaker A:Oh, how many of, like, three chronic illnesses I've had?
Speaker A:I haven't got three now, but the three chronic illnesses I've had, a lot of people who've got them just can't work at all.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And they can.
Speaker A:They're progressive and they can deteriorate.
Speaker A:And so that's a whole other world of fear and complexity where people sometimes really need the help to kind of almost stop that deterioration.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:When sometimes.
Speaker A:I mean, this is really complicated stuff, but the science on all of this that's coming out now is really exciting in terms of you've got an underlying condition, but the part that fear play in, that it can be something that helps maintain some illnesses, not.
Speaker A:Not all illnesses, but some.
Speaker A:Because it's not a conscious thing.
Speaker A:Everybody thinks, oh, anxiety is you thinking something.
Speaker A:It isn't.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:Your whole life is under threat, and so your brain is fearful all the time.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:It's sort of like almost living in, like, being in survival mode.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Which is really bad.
Speaker A:I mean, that's a whole other thing.
Speaker A:That's a whole other thing that.
Speaker A:I work with a lot of clients on that.
Speaker B:But, you know, I think it's sort of quite useful for any of us who perhaps aware of chronic illnesses, but we're not necessarily aware of the impact of it.
Speaker B:And I think it's interesting for us just to hear that and know a bit more about it, really.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:And it's really tough.
Speaker A:And I think the biggest.
Speaker A:The toughest thing about it is that.
Speaker A:Not the toughest thing.
Speaker A:One of the toughest things is it's invisible.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I can, like, I mean, I talked to so many people about this.
Speaker A:I talked to my friends about it, my family.
Speaker A:Like, nobody.
Speaker A:I'll qualify this.
Speaker A:Nobody really believes me because I look.
Speaker A:Well, I am fit.
Speaker A:I defy all expectations of someone who.
Speaker A:Who says they are ill, as ill as I say I am, and I am because they can't see it.
Speaker A:And so over many years of therapy and, you know, understanding the world, I do now understand that that doesn't mean people don't love me or want to believe me.
Speaker A:It's that they're a human being and their brain looks at things and assesses them, and what I say and what I do and look like do not fit together.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, you read a lovely summary of what I've done earlier on, didn't you?
Speaker A:I'm quite impressive.
Speaker A:I've done a lot of things, but.
Speaker A:But while I could have done a lot more things had I not been ill, you know, and because I, you know, I really love seeing what people like you do.
Speaker A:And, you know, your.
Speaker A:Your podcast comes out every week and, you know, you do so much really, really good stuff.
Speaker A:And, I mean, I'm fine with that now.
Speaker A:Again, I've worked through a lot of my old expectations of myself.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I'm happy with what I am doing, but I think, you know, if I'd never got sick, I would be doing as many things as someone like you is doing.
Speaker A:And, you know, and that's okay because I am where I am and I have to do what I need to do, otherwise no one's going to get anything, any help from me.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm not.
Speaker A:And I'm not going to be okay either.
Speaker A:So it's sort of.
Speaker A:There's a p.
Speaker A:There's sort of an acceptance, again, controversial word even, but like an accept.
Speaker A:Not an acceptance of being sick, but an acceptance of where you are.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And from there, can you build something that is going to be more likely to work rather than if you're still in the stage of fighting against this awful reality, whether it's a new chronic condition or whether it's a relapse or whether it's a, you know, I don't know, you need treatment and you're getting it, whatever, then you can get very, very stuck in fighting it, which isn't good for it.
Speaker A:But it's also not good for your mental health or your kind of decision making.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because you're trying to push against.
Speaker A:I mean, that's.
Speaker A:That's the.
Speaker A:I think a lot.
Speaker A:There's a lot more recognition now that in a lot of cases, that's why people have got long Covid, because again, not their fault, but we don't live in a culture that allows us to physically recover from things.
Speaker A:And so a lot of people got Covid.
Speaker A:They were sick for a couple of weeks, they had to go back to work.
Speaker A:In some cases, went back to work and they just didn't.
Speaker A:They didn't ever recover.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that's a chance.
Speaker A:It's just one example of a chronic condition, you know, because everyone knows about that now, don't they?
Speaker A:But, you know, it's not good if you don't have the space that you need to heal, to recover, to rebuild yourself, you know, all those things.
Speaker B:And does society so, you know, sort of like a capitalist society.
Speaker B:It's production.
Speaker A:Get back to work.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:And pretend that you can do what you were doing before and keep pushing until you.
Speaker A:Until you have a crash, basically.
Speaker A:And there's a cycle there, which is really, really bad because oftentimes not just the long Covid, but with a lot of illnesses, people are trying to play that game and they're trying to.
Speaker A:Obviously sometimes they have to do the job because they've got a mortgage paying, they've got kids and whatever, they do it and they do it and do it until their body stops them from doing it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Which is the really frightening part, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think I haven't been lucky at all.
Speaker A:That's lucky is not the right word.
Speaker A:But the time of life that I got sick, I didn't have any responsibilities.
Speaker A:I was, I had the space and the time.
Speaker A:I was in the NHS where you get up to six months full pay off sick.
Speaker A:So I, you know, I had a lot of privilege at that point in order to have the best chance a person can have.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And obviously not everybody has that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, so I'm sort of curious to know, you know, just sort of thinking about, I mean, obviously when you went into private practice, it was a, it was a while ago, wasn't it?
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So things have changed.
Speaker B:But I was just sort of thinking about the impact of trying to work on your marketing.
Speaker B:For example, if you've got a chronic condition and you know, things like the sort of pace, things like, you know, social media or whatever, that it can be quite difficult to do that sort of stuff as well, you know, to.
Speaker A:Be, to do all the extras.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, I was thinking about that.
Speaker A:I mean, for me, I didn't need to do that much marketing because of the time it was, but also because I'd already got a good career.
Speaker A:I wasn't just coming out of training.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But there are other things that I that fit into what you're saying.
Speaker A:Like, like how do I do the work I want to do for my podcast, for example, or how do I, you know, and I think it's really tricky because if you're having a really bad health patch, sometimes you have to prioritize.
Speaker A:The most important part, which is after your own well being, is the client sessions.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you, sometimes you just do that and don't do anything else.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But then if you have got some other time, it's like, yeah, you're right.
Speaker A:What do you prioritize?
Speaker A:Because we do have to do marketing more than ever now, don't we?
Speaker A:And it's, it's kind of, I guess, pacing it.
Speaker A:And I think you've probably said this, I'm sure other people have said this, but I'm sure you've said it about like doing your posts all at once and then scheduling them, like things like that.
Speaker A:So saying, well, when you know, you've got an hour that you can have the attention and focus to do that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, and scheduling that.
Speaker A:I guess it doesn't have to be rigid, does it?
Speaker A:But making sure it's part of your routine.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And then instead of going, oh, I haven't done it, and like, and then having like really pressured and then, you know, it's I suppose it's different, you know, be different for different conditions and different people, wouldn't it?
Speaker A:But yeah, but sometimes it just, it just drops off the bottom.
Speaker A:Like there's something like our podcast people will go from here hopefully and some of them might be interested in our podcast.
Speaker A:And I've just been messaging my podcasts buddy today going, oh, we should get another one out before this one comes out because we haven't had one.
Speaker A:Like, I really love this.
Speaker A:This is a good example of how I live.
Speaker A:We haven't put a new podcast episode out for, I don't even know, three months.
Speaker A:I think it is because I wasn't well before Christmas and now my podcast partner hasn't been well.
Speaker B:Oh right.
Speaker A:And so we do not try to do it.
Speaker A:We honour the whole ethos of our podcast, which is you've got to look after yourself.
Speaker A:Like I feel sometimes I feel a little bit sad about it because I'm like, well I'd love to do more but I don't feel bad about it whatsoever because it's like the fact that I've done it at all is quite amazing.
Speaker B:No, I think it's, it's sort of interesting.
Speaker B:Like you say that there'll be, there's going to be times where you just have to do what you can do and let.
Speaker B:Let it go.
Speaker B:I suppose is.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And if that means you can see your clients if you've got, if you've got the ability to be flexible and compassionate to yourself.
Speaker A:Because I think some people are in such a like high level of stress.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like nervous system is like this.
Speaker A:And so it, it's more difficult when you feel like that to make decisions about letting certain things go or be able to feel okay about that, you know, because if you can just adapt and go.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So like say someone's having a really bad health week.
Speaker A:Look in their diary for next week.
Speaker A:They've got client appointments, they've got.
Speaker A:I don't know what other people do a lot of other things and their meetings or they've got, you know, they decided they were supposed to be doing their accreditation or whatever.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, if you're going to be hardcore about this and, and really center your own well being, you just cross out everything else apart from the client sometimes if it gets really bad.
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:I haven't done this hardly ever.
Speaker A:So any clients who might hear this?
Speaker A:I think I've done it once.
Speaker A:But once I did cancel some clients.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I didn't tell them but you know, I didn't say oh, I'm just going to cancel half my clients and not the other half.
Speaker A:Obviously I didn't do that but like, because things were really bad but I was able to work.
Speaker A:There was one time where I did actually move some of them to another week.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, but it meant I could still do something.
Speaker A:But then obviously if you're really sick, you just need to take time off sick, don't you?
Speaker A:Which is really difficult when you're in private practice because you don't get paid.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:That's the thing, isn't it?
Speaker B:Which I suppose sort of underlines even more that need to be really displayed, disciplined around your self care.
Speaker A:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker A:I mean, it's.
Speaker A:As I said, it is the first thing that I think about and that I plan and it.
Speaker A:Because for me, it's the only thing that keeps me going, really.
Speaker A:Like if I don't maintain a lot and again, it's going to be different for everybody.
Speaker A:But you know, the things that help me to manage the pain that I'm in or, you know, keep my energy fairly good are things that I need to make the space to do.
Speaker A:Otherwise they're not going to happen.
Speaker A:But then, you know, I think it is a long journey from feeling that selfish is bad and to realizing that selfish isn't selfish.
Speaker A:I'm sure you've come across that concept, haven't you?
Speaker A:You know, to get to land in a place where you can realize that selfish actually means you can do the things you want to do with other people, for other people in your family.
Speaker A:It's not actually selfish at all, but a lot of people, it takes a very long time to come to that, doesn't it?
Speaker A:And so that's a big thing that I help.
Speaker A:I wanted to bring up as well, which is really relevant to you.
Speaker A:You talk about this a lot.
Speaker A:Is pricing.
Speaker A:Yes, I'm pricing.
Speaker A:Oh my goodness.
Speaker A:Because again, you have to really work on your money mindset.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's what they call it, isn't it?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because if you don't, and I see this all the time in the people discussing this on the Facebook forums, it really upsets me.
Speaker A:It upsets me for people who haven't got a chronic condition, by the way.
Speaker A:We don't.
Speaker A:We just don't.
Speaker A:We don't.
Speaker A:We're not valued enough.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:By agencies or by ourselves.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's a whole other issue.
Speaker A:But if you are, if you have a chronic condition and you can't work the amount of hours you think you would like to be able to work in the world, you know, you have.
Speaker A:You have got to sort out your attitude to charging.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, and over time, like, you know, I.
Speaker A:I mean, I think I've been in private practice long enough now that obviously my fees would have gone up and up and up anyway.
Speaker A:But, like, you know, I'm quite.
Speaker A:I've got quite high level of fee to where I live, but, you know, I've kind of done a lot of thinking around that and considering a lot of my work is specialist anyway.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, but what it means is, it means, in fact, I was just doing some sums earlier on today where I made some changes in.
Speaker A:Because I've got lots of different streams of work.
Speaker A:You know, I do work for insurance companies and then I've got some clients whose employers are paying me directly.
Speaker A:So there's some parts of what you can.
Speaker A:You can charge more for.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Than you do for your private clients.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And then I do have some reduced rates, but I keep them at a certain level so that it doesn't sabotage what I've just said.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Certain number of low cost.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you've got to keep reviewing that.
Speaker A:And you've got.
Speaker A:You've got.
Speaker A:And I do.
Speaker A:I don't find this easy, by the way, either, because it's awkward, isn't it?
Speaker B:I don't think we do.
Speaker A:You have to review it.
Speaker A:You have to consistently put your prices up every year or 18 months or whatever.
Speaker A:I mean, if you're not doing that and you've got a chronic condition, basically what you're, you know, doing is setting yourself up to fail.
Speaker A:Because if you're not earning enough to live on because you feel bad about charging a decent amount for your services, I mean, you know, everybody's different and we've got.
Speaker A:The people who kind of undermine our profession are the people who don't need to earn money, so they charge really low amounts.
Speaker A:That's annoying.
Speaker A:But that's kind of traditional in the counseling profession, isn't it?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So that's one problem.
Speaker A:Then there's all these other problems about it.
Speaker A:But, like, it doesn't matter if me, you or whoever else charges a high amount because there's plenty of people charging a lower amount.
Speaker A:Like, why do we have to feel bad about that?
Speaker A:I don't understand it.
Speaker A:Yeah, do not understand it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, we are not charities.
Speaker A:I mean, there isn't enough charities, but there is enough people in private practice charging low rates that we don't have someone.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:We don't have to.
Speaker A:Like, we don't have to do that to ourselves, you know, because there's people in this area that charge half of what I charge and you know, if they have chronic conditions and that's what they're doing.
Speaker B:Well, they're not going to be making very much money though, are they?
Speaker A:Well, no, and they're not.
Speaker A:It's not sustainable.
Speaker A:I like it for so many different reasons and it really make.
Speaker A:It upsets me a lot.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, I was going to ask you about pricing because obviously if you're seeing 12 clients a week, but you want to earn effectively that amount of money, that's your full time work.
Speaker A:That's the only work I can do.
Speaker A:Yes, that's it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You have to charge more per session, per client to be able to make.
Speaker A:To make a living.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's really important.
Speaker B:But I think what's, what's really interesting about that was that you also said that you sort of.
Speaker B:You're quite specialist really, aren't you?
Speaker A:Because some of my work is specialist.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's a whole other thing.
Speaker A:Like I have to be careful for, like, like it's.
Speaker A:To anyone, say, say you're a trauma therapist, you don't want all your work to be charged with sexual abuse.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:For example.
Speaker A:Do you?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I, So that's another thing.
Speaker A:I have to make sure I've got a good balance because, you know, some work is more tiring than other.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, like working online I find a lot more tiring.
Speaker A:So I do, I do, I do remote and in person.
Speaker A:But online is far more tiring.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I have to keep an eye on how much of that have I got in my caseload, you know, or so.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you were always like having an eye on what's the balance.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:In my caseload.
Speaker A:And obviously there's times where you can't do anything about it because you're working with people, but then as people end and you bring more people in, I, I'm quite calculated about that.
Speaker A:Like I said to my supervisor yesterday, well, now I'm not taking any more remote people at the moment and I'm not taking any more chronic illness clients at the moment just because I want to do the best for the ones I've got like, as well.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because that's the other thing, isn't it?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think it's one of those sort of great coaching questions that I've got is, you know, if you're saying yes to this, what are you saying no to?
Speaker A:That's a really good question.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Because I think it's sort of like if you're saying yes to taking on more clients, you're maybe saying no to serving the existing clients to your full capacity, maybe.
Speaker A:And with chronic illness, you're saying no to yourself.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:If you have to see, I don't know, 15 people a week, when actually your capacity is seven people a week, because you need to.
Speaker A:Because you've got to pay the rent.
Speaker A:I mean, you know, nobody's pretending here.
Speaker A:We haven't got to earn a certain amount of money.
Speaker A:Each of us has a certain amount of money we have to earn, you know, because there are some people who have very wealthy partners who are just mucking about in this profession now.
Speaker A:But not.
Speaker A:Not many.
Speaker B:I think not the majority.
Speaker A:Not as many as it used to be.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think it's changed.
Speaker A:A bit more mixed, isn't it?
Speaker A:Yeah, there's a lot.
Speaker A:Because I started quite young, there's a lot more people who are doing this as a first career.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:They've got, like, younger people have got a lot of financial outcomes, haven't they?
Speaker A:So this is a real thing that we, we all have to think about.
Speaker A:But I think when you've got the, you know, the part, I think the fearful part as well is that if you've got a chronic condition, you do not know what's going to happen with that chronic condition.
Speaker A:Because we can get to a good level of balance, but then sometimes we can get a flare up or we can get a progression or we can get another chronic illness because there's a lot of overlaps and things like that.
Speaker A:So sometimes we just don't know what's coming.
Speaker A:And so almost to give yourself the best chance of being able to deal with another challenge, this has just popped into my mind.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you don't look after yourself and you're just overdoing it all the time.
Speaker A:And then another thing comes at you.
Speaker A:Yeah, you're much less likely to be able to come back from that, you know, so it's like.
Speaker A:And by no means am I saying it's a good idea to sit around worrying all the time about the future of your health.
Speaker A:I mean, if you're doing that, obviously get some therapy for that because that's, that would be really good.
Speaker A:But like, you do need to bear in mind the fragility and the, you know, the variability, because most of the conditions that I tend to work with are massively fluctuating.
Speaker A:And sometimes, I'm sure you've heard of the idea of boom and Bust pattern.
Speaker A:So a lot of these illnesses where there's a fatigue element, people are usually in a boom and bust pattern.
Speaker A:Which for anyone who doesn't know who's listening, means that you can kind of be going along at a certain rate with everything you're doing in your life and you're pushing and pushing and pushing and then all of a sudden you'll have a massive crash because you've just basically, well overdoing it.
Speaker A:So then you'll be in a crash and in a.
Speaker A:In a full blown crash.
Speaker A:Sometimes people can't work at all.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, and then it's almost like having to kind of get yourself back to where you were before.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And a lot of times without a lot of work on.
Speaker A:On your own kind of beliefs about yourself in the world or usually through therapy.
Speaker A:I think it's like the only way we can do it because we're on.
Speaker A:We need to undo all the things we've been told as young children about.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:What work is, what work means, how we should work.
Speaker A:All of this utter rubbish which is so unhealthy for anyone.
Speaker A:For like people who've got no health problems.
Speaker A:It is not healthy the society that we live in.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, yeah.
Speaker A:It's like undoing all of that so you can allow yourself to put yourself into the picture.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:If you put yourself into the picture, then you're much more likely to be able to get to a balance.
Speaker A:A balanced ish level.
Speaker A:Because that's what.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:I guess that's why I don't have time off sick because I'm so good at that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I don't have boom and bust food, regulate yourself behaviors.
Speaker A:I sometimes will have a crash if I have a flare up.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:For example, like when I got covered, I avoided Covid for four years because that's how bad Covid is for someone like me.
Speaker A:When I got Covid, it flared up.
Speaker A:My other chronic illness for four months.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:It was horrific.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I still managed to work, but I felt like absolute death.
Speaker A:It was really bad.
Speaker A:And so, you know, I was right to avoid Covid for four years because I knew what was going to happen to me.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, the other thing, I could have got long covered.
Speaker A:So that was another element that I was trying to avoid.
Speaker A:But, you know, even if you're looking at, you know, you're doing your best to look after yourself, then there can always be something else that comes at you.
Speaker A:So if you've already got a good like relationship to yourself in your Work, you're much more likely to be able to do the recovery again.
Speaker A:Like the amount of times I've had to do recovery from a, from the bottom when I've either when I was first ill or when I've had operations.
Speaker A:Because then you've got to start again.
Speaker A:Like your.
Speaker A:All your fitness has got to start again from, from a baseline, which is.
Speaker B:Really awful frustrating, I should think, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, but I've done it and I can do it, but it's not, that's not great, you know, so it's like, yeah, the more things a person can do to look after their well being, I mean this applies to, well, people also.
Speaker A:Yeah, the more things we can do to look after our well being, the less likely we are to be like, feel like we're going to lose everything when something come, else comes.
Speaker A:I mean, it could be bereavement, couldn't it?
Speaker A:Like what?
Speaker A:Whatever comes at us in life, there's always something coming.
Speaker A:You know, we've got a solid basis where we feel okay to look after our own needs.
Speaker A:It's going to be much better than if we still got to do that work.
Speaker B:You know, just listening to you, what's sort of coming up for me is, you know, how you've had really had to look at all of this, like you were saying, you know, you really had to unpack it and unpack your attitudes as well.
Speaker B:And I guess, you know, the.
Speaker B:It sounds a bit sort of like left field, but the podcast episode that I was listening to that you did recently was actually just after the riots and you were talking about handling difficult news, weren't you?
Speaker B:And I listened to it because I thought this is so relevant for now, isn't it, with the news that's coming out of.
Speaker B:Unfortunately it is, yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I sort of think, I don't know how left field this is, but it feels as though there's some connection there in that you're really aware of things that affect you.
Speaker B:And I think maybe with those particular instances that you were talking about in the podcast, which was the riots, but could equally apply to what's going on in the world at the moment that you're sort of conscious of the impact that these things have on us.
Speaker A:And so, yeah, it's interesting you're bringing up that episode actually, because, I mean, I'm sure you got from the episode.
Speaker A:So I live in Liverpool.
Speaker A:I know I don't sound like I do, but I live in the area where that was all going on.
Speaker A:There was riots just up the road.
Speaker A:It was horrendous.
Speaker A:It was like the most heartbreaking thing that's ever.
Speaker A:Ever happened.
Speaker A:And I suppose I feel like, you know, some people now are kind of dealing with bad news stuff by ignoring it completely.
Speaker A:Which, you know, if that works for you, that's your choice.
Speaker A:But for me, as a therapist, that's never going to work for me because I need to know what's going on in the world.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because clients are talking about what's going on in the world.
Speaker A:So for me, because I'm.
Speaker A:I work in quite a social context is quite important for me, you know, awareness of discrimination and all that.
Speaker A:We're not in a vacuum, are we?
Speaker A:Like, we're humans with marginalized identities and stuff like that.
Speaker A:So I need to know what's going on in the world, so.
Speaker A:And a big thing is making the space for how you feel about something that's happening, isn't it?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, and finding.
Speaker A:I think in that episode.
Speaker A:I'm glad you brought that up because that was.
Speaker A:That was really beautiful experience.
Speaker A:In the episode, we talk about the imam who was.
Speaker A:Who was kind of.
Speaker A:I don't know, he was embodying the opposite of what was going on, and it was absolutely beautiful.
Speaker A:And it's that.
Speaker A:It's like finding those parts, those things that hope in the world.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Focusing on.
Speaker B:Get you through people, almost, in a sense.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I actually went to see him speak and everything, and it was just.
Speaker A:Oh, it's so beautiful.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, because otherwise you just.
Speaker A:You would lose your mind.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:It's just too much sometimes.
Speaker A:And like, you say the stuff that's happening in America, it's just.
Speaker A:I think for me, the stuff that's happening in America is so ridiculous that it occupies.
Speaker A:Even though I know it's real and I know it's really bad, it's occupying, like a comic part of my brain.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's like.
Speaker A:That's so silly that it's not that threatening.
Speaker A:I mean, it's all right for me because I'm not there, am I?
Speaker A:But, like, it's just so ridiculous.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But it's really.
Speaker A:It is terrible.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:And I think.
Speaker B:I think there's something that you sort of talked about that spoke to me and that's.
Speaker B:I mean, obviously there's.
Speaker B:There was the bit about the iman and, you know, the way that he really tried to reach out to people and have conversations with people and difference that he made.
Speaker B:But also I think there's sort of something around recognizing, you know, where we can Take action and that sometimes because I think you said, you know, you joined a, like a march, a protest against the racism and, you know, this sort of where can we take action and where we can express our agency.
Speaker B:And I think some of it is that lack of agency, isn't it, that makes us feel so hopeless.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's that and it's that doing and being in community.
Speaker A:Because that's what that.
Speaker A:That was lovely.
Speaker A:Like there's.
Speaker A:There were so many people there and there were more people at that event than there were any of the horrible, far right violent people's events.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:In fact one I didn't go to the one that, that stopped it, but there was one where the protest against the violence.
Speaker A:Stopped the violence.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So many people.
Speaker A:I mean people in Liverpool, this is what we do.
Speaker A:It's fab.
Speaker A:It's like so good.
Speaker A:You're right.
Speaker A:It's finding the goods, finding the community.
Speaker A:It's doing what you can do.
Speaker A:Even if what you can do is talking to someone else about how bad it is, you know, it's making space.
Speaker A:Because all that isn't great for people who haven't got great health either.
Speaker B:Well, I was going to ask you about that.
Speaker B:If that sort of like is an additional thing.
Speaker B:You know, it might even add to even a greater sense of help.
Speaker B:I can't really do anything because, you.
Speaker A:Know, I don't know.
Speaker A:I think I'm all right with that.
Speaker A:I think, I think again, I think because I've had to make peace with a lot of things that I can't do.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:In life that, that sort of also falls into that category, if that makes sense.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think, I think also when you do do this type of work and you do.
Speaker A:If you love it, I've actually now got the attitude, well, this sounds.
Speaker A:It's going to sound really cocky.
Speaker A:I don't know how to put it any other way.
Speaker A:It's really bad.
Speaker A:It's like if I couldn't work anymore, now I know that I've done some good in the world.
Speaker B:Yeah, you've left it.
Speaker A:I felt like that 10 years ago, so that's nice, isn't it?
Speaker A:But now if I only saw three clients a week, I know I'm doing something useful.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Whereas I think a lot of people in my life, you know, a lot of CL I work with, they have jobs and they feel utterly pointless and they feel like they, they don't like them and they don't see any impact.
Speaker A:And I'm like, that's more common, isn't it.
Speaker A:So I think I fully embrace the fact that I can do something useful, even if it's.
Speaker A:Even if it's not what I dreamed for myself, which actually, by the way, was a career in the nhs.
Speaker A:But that just became unsustainable because of the culture in the nhs.
Speaker A:It just wasn't supportive anymore.
Speaker A:So I had to let go of that.
Speaker A:Like, I've had to let go of so many ideas about what my life should be like.
Speaker A:There's that terrible word, should, what my life should be like versus what it is like.
Speaker A:And making the best of what it is like.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And it.
Speaker B:And yet you've.
Speaker B:You've used what's available to you to create other things, haven't you?
Speaker B:Like your book and your podcast and.
Speaker A:Well, yeah, and that was an accident.
Speaker A:Anyway, go on, tell us about that.
Speaker A:I didn't.
Speaker A:Well, I didn't set out to write a book.
Speaker A:It was one of those, you know, one of those really weird this might have happened to you.
Speaker A:One of those really weird things that happen in life where all these people just sort of emerge.
Speaker A:So I.
Speaker A:For some reason, this sounds really bad, but for some reason I was talking to a client about some writing I was doing about health problems just for myself.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And turns out this is so odd.
Speaker A:Turns out he was really good friends with this editor who was trying to find someone to write the book that I wrote.
Speaker B:Oh, wow.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:How weird is that?
Speaker B:Like, well, it's meant to be, wasn't it?
Speaker A:Well, it was, and it actually was therapeutic because I didn't want to write it because the book is actually for friends and family and professionals.
Speaker A:It's not for people with chronic fatigue.
Speaker A:So at the time I was like, why am I writing a book for these people who, you know.
Speaker A:Because I was quite angry early on because people just don't get it.
Speaker A:And oftentimes they just, you know, they make mistakes or they'll, you know, just not understand.
Speaker A:But actually writing it really helped me because it helped me to understand why people couldn't support me in the way that I needed.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So that was good.
Speaker A:And also, in the end, it's turned out that people who have chronic fatigue and me really like the book because they know they never see themselves represented.
Speaker A:It's got loads of case studies.
Speaker A:It's not just me banging on about myself.
Speaker A:It's got a lot of case studies in it.
Speaker A:So it's got like all these real world examples and also then lots and lots of kind of detail about what it's actually like to live with that illness.
Speaker A:So if anyone's listening and they haven't got a clue and they got clients or they've got family members and they want to know what does it actually feel like to live with a energy limiting illness?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's what the book's for.
Speaker A:So, yeah.
Speaker A:You know, I'm not making.
Speaker A:I don't make any money off that either, by the way.
Speaker A:I'm not publicizing.
Speaker A:I think I make seven pence for every copy.
Speaker A:It's disgraceful.
Speaker A:But I wrote it because I wanted to help people.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And the podcast came.
Speaker A:Everyone will be able to tell can.
Speaker A:Because I like talking.
Speaker A:So my friend Podcast Paul is.
Speaker A:It's an interesting contrast because he's a careers professional and he.
Speaker A:And he was my careers advisor when I was at university.
Speaker A:One day we were just having this really great conversation about one of the issues we ended up talking about and we were like, hang on a minute.
Speaker A:Oh no.
Speaker A:He said.
Speaker A:Because at this time he was lecturing and he said, oh, this would be a really good conversation to play to my students.
Speaker A:And then we were like, oh, we should do a podcast.
Speaker A:Like neither of us ever thought to do a podcast.
Speaker A:Like that is not a thing I would do.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So we did it and we love it.
Speaker A:Like we sometimes have guests on, but mostly it's us because there's so many intersecting issues.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And we've both got very high standards for the level of work and that we're doing.
Speaker A:So there's just so much.
Speaker A:But the main thing that runs through the whole of it is it's about practitioner well being.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's.
Speaker A:It is about other things as well, but it's mainly about that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So if anybody's struggling with that, because the majority of counsellors would admit they're not very good at that.
Speaker A:I think you would agree that is what it's about because I'm all passionate about that.
Speaker A:Whether you've got a chronic condition or you haven't got a chronic condition, like you've got to look after yourself or you will burn out.
Speaker A:People do burn out all the time, don't they?
Speaker A:So that's the thread that runs through it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think that again, this is part of your legacy really, isn't it, Is passing this on to people and it's hard won what you've had to go through.
Speaker A:It really is.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But again, it gives us other people, you know, pause for thought, I think to sort of.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:A lot of it was accidental, but let's Replace the word accidents with authentic.
Speaker A:Because it's all come out of me talking about things I'm passionate about and then other people going, oh, hang on, why don't we do something with this?
Speaker A:And I really love that because I think in therapy, that's kind of how clients find you in a really weird way where they're actually a really good fit.
Speaker A:But for reasons they didn't realize, that happens a lot.
Speaker A:Like, there's lots of things I work with which I don't really talk about in my marketing, but people will come to me.
Speaker A:Like, one of them is, I work a lot with people who are trying to reclaim their creativity, for example, that's something I've done myself, but I don't talk about that anywhere.
Speaker A:And I get all these artists coming to work with me.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, so I love that because that's a really good contrast to some of the more dark stuff, isn't it?
Speaker B:It's incredible, isn't it, people?
Speaker B:There's just something about.
Speaker B:I think it's just something about the way you might write, or there's just.
Speaker A:Yeah, they just know.
Speaker A:Don't they know it's beautiful?
Speaker A:Because you get these people.
Speaker A:And I think, you know, when I work a lot with people who've been ill for a very long time, as one, they've seen everyone under the sun.
Speaker A:They've seen.
Speaker A:But they've never seen anyone who gets them before, which is really bad.
Speaker A:I mean, I've experienced that as a patient.
Speaker A:It's awful.
Speaker A:Like, a lot of doctors don't understand it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because they haven't had it, you know, whatever it is, there's a shortcut.
Speaker A:There's a shorthand in speaking to someone who actually knows what fatigue is, because fatigue is not tiredness, you know?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, there's all that.
Speaker A:And I think that's what, you know to really feel seen.
Speaker A:Sometimes when you're in an experience that's outside of everyone else around you's knowledge, sometimes that's.
Speaker A:I mean, I've certainly needed that from therapists myself, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, like, I've written a lot of articles about chronic illness.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:In fact, there's an article on my website, which maybe I'll put up the list so in case people want to see it.
Speaker A:It's about how private practice is really good if you've got a chronic illness.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, that'd be good.
Speaker A:So it's easier to see.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Great.
Speaker A:So I do a lot of stuff like that.
Speaker A:So if somebody was to dig, they would find I mean, I have like, I've written articles for the BACP about chronic pain, for example, so people sometimes find it.
Speaker A:It's not because I'm saying I've.
Speaker A:This has happened to me all that bit.
Speaker A:It's the authority in it.
Speaker A:So they know it.
Speaker B:Yeah, but they.
Speaker A:And then if I'm working with someone, if I'm working with someone who's had an illness that I've had, sometimes I will self disclose about some of that, but only if it's useful for them because obviously, like I said at the beginning, my experience is not really relevant to other people's experience because it's different.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, we've got different backgrounds and different privileges and different, you know, all sorts of things, haven't we?
Speaker B:So, so this just, just sort of really interesting to hear from you and hear what your experience has been, Elizabeth, and I'm sure it will really help other people.
Speaker B:Is there anything else that we, we haven't mentioned that you'd sort of thought.
Speaker A:You would like to say?
Speaker A:I've written on my piece of paper here as a prompt, I've written planning, so I'm just gonna.
Speaker A:We've sort of touched on planning, haven't we?
Speaker A:We've talked about caseload numbers and we've talked about embedded well being practices.
Speaker A:But I just want to take that another step further.
Speaker A:So planning breaks and holidays.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Is.
Speaker A:I mean, again, everybody could do with doing that to prevent burnout and a lot of people don't do it.
Speaker A:But if you have a chronic condition that has energy elements to it, working out how long you can go before you have a week off, even if you only work two days a week.
Speaker A:I only work.
Speaker A:I worked like two and a half days a week.
Speaker A:I still need some time off every few weeks.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, so there's another adjustment to be made there.
Speaker A:It's like some people.
Speaker A:Oh, but I haven't even done a full week's work.
Speaker A:No, you still need regular breaks.
Speaker A:So for me, I take a week off every six or seven weeks.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:For example, and that's not rigid, but it is, is scheduled, it's diaried, you know, so again, it's putting everything at the forefront and in the planning that you do for your business.
Speaker A:It's not just about progression and numbers of clients and all that.
Speaker A:It's got to be about how are you embedding yourself into all the planning.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:How are you factoring in your varying needs, how are you, how are you getting the help you need?
Speaker A:I guess something we, we have been talking about, but I'm gonna go harder on it is if you're really struggling with this, finding a supervisor who gets it, as I've said, I have that.
Speaker A:I mean, it's probably quite hard to get this, by the way, but if you can get a supervisor who does that for themselves.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You're gonna find it a lot easier to do it than if you're, you know, if your supervisor is someone who is able to work full time and.
Speaker A:And sees, I don't know, 20 clients a week or something.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And you need them to really help you to keep it down.
Speaker A:And they've got a different value system and beliefs about work.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, you can do it if they're able to, but it's, you know, getting someone to support you with those things, especially if you're not there yet with it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think is kind of important.
Speaker B:Yeah, it feels really crucial, actually.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And in the future, I'm going to.
Speaker A:Because although I've been doing this work for 27 years is now, I've never done supervision.
Speaker A:And part.
Speaker A:Part of the reason for that, of course, is I haven't been well enough to do it because it's another big addition.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But recently a couple of people have asked me if I would do it.
Speaker A:So what I'm going to do is I'm going to do some kind of supervision training and then maybe later in this year I might open that up, but it will probably only be for people with chronic conditions.
Speaker B:So it's really good idea being the.
Speaker A:Person that I'm just talking to you about, basically, because it's specialized, it's like, special.
Speaker A:And I think there is.
Speaker A:Well, I've done a bit of market research, actually, like me.
Speaker A:But there is a market for that, I think.
Speaker B:It definitely is.
Speaker B:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But at the moment, I'll like, do, you know, consultations with people if they want a bit of support.
Speaker B:So people are listening to this and they'd like to get in touch.
Speaker B:That would.
Speaker B:That would be okay.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Or just listen to the podcast because it's.
Speaker A:I mean, even though we don't do it very often, there's quite a lot of episodes there.
Speaker A:I think there's like 27 episodes or something there.
Speaker B:So they can pick stuff up from there.
Speaker A:And there is actually.
Speaker A:There is actually one episode which is specifically about working and training when you've got a chronic illness.
Speaker A:So that's one of our guest episodes.
Speaker A:So a colleague friend of mine who also has chronic conditions.
Speaker A:So that's one of our episodes.
Speaker B:Well, thanks so much for coming along.
Speaker A:I really appreciate it.
Speaker B:Time's flown by.
Speaker B:It's been so interesting to hear and hopefully this will serve to encourage those of the audience who maybe are experiencing a chronic illness or several chronic illnesses that it is possible and.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And there are resources out there if you know where to look for help.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:Brilliant.
Speaker A:Because it is absolutely possible.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And it is the best job in the world.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think that shines through from what you've been telling us.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that you can really make a difference with.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:Well, thanks so much for coming along.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker B:It's been brilliant.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:Thanks for listening.
Speaker B:Do come and join my Facebook community.
Speaker B:Good enough.
Speaker B:Counsellors.
Speaker B:And for more information about how I can help you develop your private practice, please Visit my website, JosephineHughes.com if you found this episode helpful, I'd love it if you could share it with a fellow therapist or leave a review on your podcast app.
Speaker B:And in closing, I'd love to remind you that every single step you make gets you close to your dream.
Speaker B:I really believe you can do it.
