Finding Meaning in the Hustle with Dr. Michael Tompkins

Episode 2 • 13th November 2024 • Meaning Vs Merit • Dr. Maria-Christina Stewart

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Preview

I think you can continue to hustle, but just think about and connect with like, I'm hustling, but why? And connect with those values. It will make it more meaningful. The hustle will be more meaningful. And because it's more meaningful, I think it's going to be more sustainable over time.

Maria-Christina Stewart (: 00:23

Welcome back to Meaning vs. Merit. I'm your host, Dr. Maria Christina, and joining us today is esteemed clinical psychologist, Dr. Michael Tompkins. In today's episode, we dive into some powerful psychological tips designed to help you navigate the delicate balance between finding meaning and pursuing merit in today's challenging economic landscape.

Join us as we explore strategies to enrich your journey toward fulfillment and success. Before we get started, I want to remind you to subscribe to get notified when we release new episodes. And if you like this episode or think it would be helpful for someone else, please leave a review of it either on your listening app, such as Apple podcasts, or on podjaser.com. Now let's get started.

So I'm so excited to be here today with Dr. Michael Tompkins. He's a licensed psychologist in the Bay Area. He's board certified in behavioral and cognitive psychology, co-director of the San Francisco Bay Area Center for Cognitive Therapy, assistant clinical professor at the University of California, Berkeley, diplomat and founding fellow of the Academy of Cognitive Therapy, a trainer and consultant for the Beck Institute for Cognitive Behavior, a diplomat and certified trainer for the Academy of Cognitive and Behavioral Therapy on the faculty at the International OCD Foundation Training Institute. And he serves on the advisory board of Imagination Press, which is a children's press of the American Psychological Association. So you're doing a tremendous number of things. There's cognitive all over there, which we definitely want to talk to you about that. And in addition to all of that, and of course, working in private practice,

He has authored and co-authored 17 books and numerous scholarly articles and chapters on cognitive behavioral therapy and related topics. You've given over 300 workshops, that's a large number, lectures and keynote presentations to national and international audience. You've been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Learning Channel and radio, and you've gotten a number of awards. So I'm just...So excited to be having you here both to get your thoughts on our search in balancing meaning and merit and also thinking about how to balance meaning and merit within the backdrop of the current state of our economy. So to our listeners, one of our recent podcast episodes featured renowned economist Dr. Bergsten, who shared his thoughts on the current state of the economy and its impact on our search for meaning and merit.

I encourage you to listen to it and I'm excited to discuss some of the points that Dr. Bergsten made today with Dr. Michael Tompkins. But first, I would love to hear from you as we get started, just a little bit about yourself so that we can get to know you. So you're a psychologist, you've been practicing not your entire career, right? So you made a career shift. Would you be willing to tell us a little bit about your life journey and your own search for meaning America?

I would be delighted. mean, I think my story is a good example of, I think, of how a search for meeting led to merit in my life. So, prior to going to graduate school in psychology, I went to graduate school in chemistry. So, I have a PhD in chemistry and that led me to a career as a research chemist and I was a research chemist in a number of different

know, know, academia, government and private industry. But over the course of that, I really didn't feel like it was a good match for me. And so then I went in search of something else. And this was when I was in my, probably in my mid to late 30s, right? So I was not a spring chicken by any stretch. And I think my life is an actual good

example of how I would have benefited from hitting the pause button and doing some self-reflection. I grew up, you know, working class family. The emphasis on education was there, but the emphasis was, I think, on toward a path of being able to take care of myself and the people that I care about, you know. So, it was about, you know, a job that paid well. And so, there wasn't much opportunity or there was an opportunity that I actually didn't take advantage of which is that I did have the opportunity and the freedom to ask myself what would I like to do? But I didn't. And I think the ability to ask myself that question just reflects a certain privilege in itself to be able to ask myself that question. But the tragedy in my life is that I didn't ask myself that question. And so what that resulted in is this search for a period of time. And because, you know, being a research chemist was not a meaningful enterprise for me, I frankly wasn't that good at it, actually. You know, I had colleagues who were really passionate about, you know, research chemistry, research and in the field, and they were really good at it. I wasn't so good at it. You know, and so I went back to graduate school. I went to a professional school in psychology because no academic university would accept a man in his 30s into a research program. I didn't even have to apply. I knew that to be a fact, right? Because the programs are quite limited in themselves and they're looking for young people who are on a research track. and I was not on a research track and I certainly was not a young person. So I went down the professional psychology path in a private college. And then, you know, I started my career and I found it to be very fulfilling. And because of that, because it was quite meaningful and fulfilling, I worked really hard at it. I accomplished a lot. And I think it's difficult. for me to imagine that someone who's not engaged in a meaningful career is actually going to work hard enough to be successful. Certainly successful, you know, by the measures that, you know, our culture often uses. So that was my journey. Yeah, that's beautiful. I do think about what a privilege that is, right? Both to know what it is that brings you meaning and is fulfilling. being able to do it. Because then if you're able to somehow join the merit and the meaning, right? And you, as you said, if you're doing the thing that brings you meaning, you may do it more. And the more you do it, the more merit you get, you get better at it just because you're doing the thing that you love. But it is such a privilege. It's both a privilege to know what that thing is. I speak with many people that just don't know and they're on their search, but they are in their 40s and 50s and 60s and they still have not found that thing. And it's also a privilege to have the space and the finances and so forth to be able to do that. And I was the first one in my family and even the extended family to actually go to college, actually. So my parents were working class. They finished high school, but nothing more. They wanted better for their kids and better. was college, which I think was very true, certainly was very true back then, but they were not well informed about college. They saw it as something one did. And so they weren't well informed. They were not about the opportunities that did exist in actually going to college and the opportunities about going to different colleges and exploring different options. They just were not, that was not their world.

So I didn't have anyone to help me say, why don't we stop, Michael, and just think about what you want to do, and let's think about what college will help you do that. That was not where they were. And so I think there are many people in many families who do not have this privilege. And as part of that privilege is that it's not something that their parents or their peers have really thought much about in terms of what a path like that looks like. And that's the tragedy for me is that my family was well enough, although we were working class. I I remember periods where we had breakfast for dinner many times, actually, breakfast for, which was great when you're a kid. in hindsight, I recognize that, no, that was, the paycheck had run out.

You know, my parents worked hard and they were committed to, you know, getting me into a college and they did that. But, you know, the tragedy for me is that I didn't, you know, have enough understanding and reflection to be able to stop and ask myself, like, is this something I want to do or not? And I see so many young people not doing that, right? Either because developmentally, that's just not where they are or because They are very fear driven that if they don't get, you know, the quote unquote right job and the right paycheck or salary that they're gonna fall behind. And I'm jumping ahead of myself because I don't wanna get there too quickly, but it is one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you because, and then I wanted to even think about economics because I see so many clients. teens, young adults and their parents saying whenever I'm bringing up, meaning and what's important to you. Now the last five, seven, 10 years, I really hear them saying, hold on a second. Don't you see how it is out there economically? We really do need to focus on paying the bills actually. And it's lovely to be thinking about what brings my kid meaning, but I don't know how practical that is, right? And so that of course will feed that fear thought of, gosh, I need to get something good enough when it seems like the current state of the economy begs it, requires it. And so I'm just curious, kind of coming back to you, you were in this situation yourself and you have all this expertise, especially with cognitive and behavioral therapy.

I'm wondering if you might be able to tell us a little bit about what that is for the listeners that don't know and also how that might tie into some thoughts, recommendations, tools that might help people going through this sort of situation in life to actually pause and focus on the meaning when there is this drive very often to focus on other things. And of course, that's assuming that they have the privilege to be able to do it.

Well, cognitive therapy, or at least the way I think about it, is the ethos, the assumption that it's not the things that trouble us, it's our view of things that trouble us. So cognitive behavior therapy is really about learning to think about one's thinking. That requires a certain level of reflection and self-awareness, but how we think influences how we feel. how we feel influences how we act in the world. That's the model. And when I think about what we can take away from cognitive therapy relative to the topic of meaning versus merit is that meaning, what is meaningful to us is related to how we value something and how we value something is related to how we think about it. How we think about the importance of merit. and what merit is for us is also influenced by how we think about it. And it's not for me, and I think the economist spoke to this so much about, know, it's not like meaning being more important than merit or merit being more important than meaning. I think the problem that where cognitive therapy can help people is when they have lost flexibility. in being able to move between those two poles, those two elements of life. And when we're anxious and when we're highly anxious, one of the things that we lose is flexibility. We lose flexibility. When we're depressed and hopeless, we lose flexibility. So flexibility comes from actually being able to have a reasonable emotional reaction to the events in our lives.

And so what I think about in terms of the question about what can be helpful to someone is can you imagine being flexible about these two aspects of life, meaning and merit? Because in principle, there's no reason to expect that you cannot be flexible about those, how you find those and how you balance those things out. And people who tend to be unhappy are locked in a lot of inflexible thinking. They tend to revisit the same beliefs and thoughts about things over and over again without pushing the pause button and asking, that a reasonable way to think about this? Is there another way to think about this that might actually be more helpful or more reasonable? And when we're not flexible thinkers, then we're not flexible emotionally and if we're not flexible emotionally we're not going to be flexible behaviorally in our actions.

Wow that's a beautiful summary. Let me ask you almost backing up you were saying that we don't want to lose the flexibility in moving between these two I don't know if you used the word poles or something to that effect. How would you define the two poles the meaning and merit? How would you define each of those so that we kind of just understand how you're thinking about them and I can show also how I'm thinking.

I'm curious about you. for me, meaning is the way we make sense of life and our place in it and our place in the past, our place today, and how we think about our place in the future. And so, you know, my past created a lot of meaning about my place in my childhood, in my history, in my culture, in my family. as it does today, right? And when I think about aspiring to do something more or different in the future, then I'll think about why that might be meaningful and important to me in the future. So to me, it's about, you know, making sense of my place in the world across, you know, all of time, my time that I'm here. Merit is not, in my view, an internally driven, it's quite externally driven.

It is based upon others' evaluation of me in terms of my status, my worth, my value in the marketplace of expectations. So, pursuing merit is really pursuing these marks of others, you know, the world and our culture and society's expectations about what it means to be someone of value.

And while I think that there is great benefit to that, it also can be limiting to us as we chase that. Because at the end of the day, the evaluation of others, other people who evaluate me is actually not so much in my control. There are certain elements that are in my control, which is how hard I hustle, what I do, you know.

I have two grown daughters and when they were kids, I said to them that the secret of success is pretty simple in my view, which is show up on time, do the work and get along with people. You do those three things and the likelihood of you being successful in whatever you do is very, very high. You don't do one of those things and you're likely not to be so successful.

The path towards success is fairly simple in my mind, right? But it's like how one gets there and what barriers are there in terms of its pursuit as a psychologist, which is really what I work on. know, somebody who has trouble arriving to things on time, that's a problem. Someone who, for whatever reason, has trouble doing the work is a problem. And certainly, people who have trouble getting along with others is a problem. And those three things are often the focus of my work with people. One or all three of those things are often the focus of my work with people.

Fascinating. So I'm just going to repeat what I wrote down on your definitions and I just...So appreciate your time and being able to ask you these questions because of course of your expertise and knowledge and you're so articulate, right? As a cognitive therapist, I'm just thinking about, and of course you're a writer. So the choice of words, it's just very on point. And so with Merit, I just loved what you said. You know, it's externally driven based on others' perceptions of me and includes status, value in the market of expectations. I loved that phrasing and what's expected, right? As you're saying in terms of showing up, doing the work, getting along with people. And so there's definitely a social norm there and the marketplace of expectations. I really liked that. And then the meaning was about making sense of our place in the world across time, right? Past, present, future.

And I have very similar thoughts. The way I also view it is with meaning. often think about what gets people excited, right? Excited to get out of bed in the morning. What do you want to do? And what are you not dragging yourself out to do? That changes life, right? When you're actually looking forward to getting up and merit. Well, I couldn't say it any better than you did. I really liked that marketplace of expectations. So the flexibility is key.

Of course. I'm curious, in the last several decades, cognitive behavioral therapy has been one of the very prominent therapies. And although it dates back, you can tell us I'm thinking at least the 60s, if not earlier. Absolutely, the 60s. Yeah, okay. but it's just as strong and alive as it is now. And there are a bunch of other therapies that also become prominent over time. That's just the nature of fields. And I have been thinking about the extent to which the prominent therapies may overlap with the state of the economy during the time in which it is developed and promoted. And I'm thinking about this because

As I have been listening to Dr. Bergsten's analysis of the current state of the economy, and he was saying, I might just pause a second to give the listeners a little bit of an overview of a couple points that he made. One was that, you know, I think many people already know this. It seems that the labor force is moving towards two extremes. One's at the end where people are very, very highly trained, and the other is people that don't have very much training at all. And those people may be needing to give up some of the status, income, and purpose that they thought were out there for them based on how the economy used to be, that it's actually changing now. And then he also was talking about the middle class. And of course, there's been so much discussion about how it's stagnated. And he was saying, he might think of it not so much as the middle class has stagnated, but the standards of living have stagnated.

And so what that means is all these parents in previous generations that wanted something better for their children and the children were kind of brought up with that model and you work hard and you get, you know, accolades and achieve and you'll get something more than your parents had and you're going to give your kids something more than you have is actually not the current state of the middle class where they may not actually be fulfilling all of these dreams that they had counted on and have been working towards. And they may need to either, he said, hustle more or be flexible to your point and adapt, right? Adapt to the current state of the economy. And so it makes me think about a lot of the new trends of therapies, stemming from cognitive behavioral therapy rooted in them that are basically saying, okay, CBT is really important and also let's also focus on meaning in life. Let's draw that into our regular discussions. I'm curious if you think that might be a reflection to some extent of the state of the economy and what it's begging for from us.

That's an interesting question. wonder if that another way of thinking about this the way I might think about it is that the state of the economy is a reflection of some changes in the social fabric, you know, because I think that I would guess as in all things, you know, it's complicated and that there is an interaction, right? And so, hustle without meaningful reward is not sustainable. And I think that there are many people working class people who are working two or three jobs just to make ends meet and they're hustling. They are hustling much more than I am even hustling for sure. They are hustling but it's demoralizing to hustle so much over time and not and to look at you know, where you are and that you're just getting by. And so I think that the 60s were certainly influenced by the 50s. I'm a baby boomer. And so, you know, my parents came out of a war and the expectation was that, you know, this country and members of this country could pretty much do anything that we wanted. our politics supported that and we fueled a huge economic boom that resulted in the development. of a viable middle class. And then that middle class was the platform on which the expectation that parents had, which is like, well, if this can work for me, obviously it's going to work for my kids. And so that contributed to it, I would imagine. But today, things have shifted. mean, when I think about flexibility, I think actually the millennials are leading the way in a sense, know, that 28 to 38 year old range who are maturing into the workforce. And they are more interested in flexibility and they're more interested in experiences than things, you know. And these experiences contribute to meaning. And so I see that as like they're really searching for more greater meaning.

That's in part what they're pursuing, less so about the new car and the bigger car and the bigger house and those kinds of things. And I think that that has been because they have observed that all of us who have pursued things for so long end up not actually being all that happy. And our oldest daughter is a millennial. She's right on the cusp. She's 28. So she's right in the beginning of that.

But I hear her think about her career choices. I think, for example, she's gone to graduate school in a master's program. She's pursuing a school's counseling degree. She's always loved kids, and she had great experiences in being helped when she was a kid, and she wants to do the same. She says to me, you know, Dad, I'm going to give this a try. But if I decide that this isn't for me, I'll just figure out something else to do.

That was not the way I thought. That was not in my worldview growing up. But that is in her worldview. And I completely believe that that's exactly the way it's going to work for her. And she will make choices that are based upon both meaning and merit. And she will take care of herself. But she will always keep this part in mind and merit make me happy or do I really want something else? So whether the economy, you know, think with cognitive therapy came out of the 60s and then the 60s also was a lot of change going on in the 60s and actually young people asking themselves some fundamental questions about whether our society as it was coming out of the 50s really was working for us, you know, and they started to ask those questions and advocate for perhaps different ideas. And I think that had the economy been perhaps different, those young people would perhaps not have had the freedom, if you will, for lack of better term, to actually make those decisions, reflect on those issues.

So, I think that the economy, to summarize, the state of the economy does influence, in my view, the freedom to reflect upon what is working for us and what is not. And when the economy is bad and we're struggling to just get through the day, that reflection, it's a very difficult thing to make room for. And when the economy is doing well, And it's prospering, we prosper. And then I think we are more apt to kind of reflect upon these other broader issues about what's meaningful.

Well said. Certainly an interaction, an interaction of so many things too. I really like how you were saying the social fabric, obviously, but you also made it a point to say impacts the economy, an important link. And I think about the other variables, of course, that are influencing this. I certainly there's globalization. Certainly there's, you know, the technological boost, there's social media and so forth. But I'm also thinking about world events. You know, I grew up and I don't think I was alone worldwide, at least in growing up with the message of, you know, success is very important. I think it was in part because I also have an international family and in part it was a result of wars over many years. And so this was to survive, right? And I remember having many conversations with my family when I was a teenager. I just don't understand why there's this emphasis on success. Can't we be focusing on being happy or doing things that are important to us? And they were just saying, that is not going to pay the bills. That is not going to help you, right?

And certainly, I mean, if you're struggling economically, if there are bombs being thrown all around you, you just don't have the privilege to be thinking about those things. And it wasn't a message I grew up with. And now it is such a privilege to be able to sit around and think about these thoughts and which thoughts be fostering. And maybe that is partly the sign of the times, partly that it is struggles, people are struggling or they're seeing other people struggling, not wanting to repeat it. And also that they have a lot of privilege that they get to ask the question to begin with. agree with you. So given all of this, you have great recommendations and advice for people. You've already talked about flexibility and I'm wondering if we can go into just a few other details. So you said in terms of hustling, If we wanted to hustle more, but there's no meaning, it's simply not sustainable, right? So let's say somebody looks at things are more competitive, there's globalization, they're really focused on, and sorry, upward mobility is much harder now, right? Than it used to be, economic upward mobility. And people are saying, I want it. I've got my eye on there and I want to climb as much as I can. I'm going to hustle more. Any tips on what they can do to help themselves on that journey.

The journey of what? Hustling more. Hustling more. Okay. So I think that I would bring the flexibility to the hustle. Right? So one of the great things about my professional life that I have crafted is that I can do lots of different things and choose to hustle in any one of those things. It's not necessary, nor would it, I think, be all that helpful. to limit my hustle to only one area if I can, right? So, I think it's not about hustle. I'm a big fan of hustle. I think hustle is great. And, you know, there are a lot of people who are a lot smarter than me but, you know, what I give myself a lot of credit for is like in a room of 100 people, I'm going to be one of those people who's really working hard. I'm willing to work really hard. I'm really I'm willing to hustle a lot, right?

I like that about myself, but I think that one of the things is that if you can step back and hustle in very different relative to different values that you have, then you have more flexibility and more balance and the likelihood of you being both successful because you're hustling at work, but you also are going to likely be more helpful because you're hustling in other areas that are also meaningful. I think one of the problems we face, or people certainly, you know, people with whom, you know, I've worked with who have sought help from me is when they put all their eggs in one value-based basket, right? So, when you hustle relative to only one value, then if something happens relative to the situation, then you are stuck. So, you know, if you derive all your meaning and value from work and then you have a setback, it can be very destabilizing, you know. But if you have value spread into other areas of your life, then you can, you know, weather that, I think, a little better psychologically, actually. So that's one suggestion about hustle. I think the other thing about hustle is if someone works because they have to work, they have to pay the bills.

That paying the bills really undermines perhaps the real value that they're serving. So why are they paying? Why is it so important for them to pay the bills? Well, my guess is that paying the bills honors a particular value, parenthood, relationship, family. that if you don't pay the bills, the people who you care about and love will suffer. And at the end of the day, if one can connect with this deep meaning that underpins hustle, it can make it easier to continue to hustle. So I'm really, you know, I'm very, very fortunate. But if I was in a circumstance in which, you know, my family were on hard economic times, I would hustle, but I wouldn't hustle just for the money. I would hustle because the money is the way I take care of my family and that is more important to me, taking care of my family. And so, you know, this can help add meaning without having to change anything, which is just about how you think about in hustling what you're really serving, you know. because if you lose sight of that, then it just becomes just doing the work. And doing the work is like really not all that necessarily meaningful, but doing the work in order to take care of your family is full of meaning. It's full of meaning because it says something about you that's actually more important in my view than the status that may be given you by your colleagues or your work. placement or things like that. And so there have been moments in my life where I have actively practiced that and connecting with the value of it. And anyone who has been a parent who is a parent knows that there are moments where you do really super hard things that you don't have to do, but you do them because at the end of the day, this is what a good parent does and by.

You know, it's important to me to be a good parent. So I'm going to do that. So I think, you know, you can continue to hustle, but just think about and connect with like I'm hustling, but why, you know, and connect with those values. It will make it more meaningful. The hustle will be more meaningful. And because it's more meaningful, I think it's going to be more sustainable over time, particularly during those hard moments.

Right. understand. I often say, what's your why for doing things? What about those people that are finding themselves in a life situation where what they had worked for and dreamt on, counted on is not actually panning out and they don't want to hustle more, but adapting and changing their expectations is also hard. And I don't even want to say they don't want to hustle more, but perhaps they don't find value in it, or they're thinking, wait a second, there must be another option here. I'm so tired as it is. There's nothing in me to hustle more. I can't. Right? What about for them? What advice might you have?

Again, I think it to me, it kind of goes back to if one doesn't change the hustle or the degree of hustle, either because one cannot, you know, then rethink about the value the hustle serves. Because there are a lot of, I I like to think that people who are working really hard and hustling under really difficult circumstances are doing it because they're something about that they value greatly. And I like to think it's things that have nothing to do with a bonus. The bonus can make us feel good because it can influence positive self-esteem, which is wonderful, which is really great. But when things aren't going well and you're not getting that, what are you going to lean on that helps you keep going? And I think that the thing to me is that if you can lean on the value that fundamentally deep down you're serving, that can help you in those moments to just keep going. With regard to flexibility, mean, if I would only, again, going back to my story is that if in my story, what helped me earn the merit that I have is because I found a path that was much more fulfilling and meaningful. had a purpose in my life in a way that I didn't have a purpose in my life. And because of that, I was willing to work really hard. And so if you're in this moment, then kind of reflect upon that, take advantage of something that I didn't take advantage of when I was young and reflect upon like other paths that are more meaningful, which then will lead to you working much harder, you know? I mean, one of the things that I heard from parents over the years, which I totally get, they would just kind of like, you know, grouse about the message that was popular, you know, a few years ago about, you know, find your passion, find what you're passionate about. and go for it. And now parents are saying that is a luxury that you do not have, right? But I would say is that we always have the option of deciding among things that can lead to merit and money and find the thing that you are more passionate about because there's that's likely where the meaning is in your life, right? And so, again, the flexibility is like this is where values also help us make decisions about things, about paths. They help us make decisions about paths. if you can, know, given the paths that you might be exploring in terms of trying to kind of like produce more income, for example, of those decisions, you know, maybe there are two that promise to actually pay you the same amount.

but one is going to add greater meaning to your life than the other. I would say to me, it's like a no brainer. Why wouldn't you do that one? The pace is the same, but adds value in terms of meaning to you. Why wouldn't you do that? So just reflecting a bit more and thinking more about it as you make these decisions.

So useful. Thank you very much for all of your thoughts and advice. One last thing as we wrap up, and maybe this what you just said may have been the answer to this, but I always end with a question. Do you have any specific guidance for young people, teenagers, young adults that are embarking on their search for meaning and merit?

One thought that pops into my mind is whether regardless of your age, know, even young people, but emotions are signals. And the emotion we call regret is a signal. That emotion as a signal is only good to the degree that it motivates us to act in the present toward the future. So I'm not talking about dwelling on regret. That's not helpful. But using that signal to actually develop a plan moving forward.

If there are aspects, if there are things in your life that you currently regret that you didn't do enough of or regret that you didn't do it differently, learn from that and then implement it moving forward. That's where regret is going to be helpful. So as a signal, one of the things is like, I think most people, when they think about it, they can think, well, yeah, there are some things that I regret having not done or done more of.

You know, totally, right? What can I learn from that? And how can I make that different moving forward? That is where regret is a gift, right? So just, you know, open up, explore some things, little regrets in one has in one's life, and then formulate a plan to act differently moving forward, you know? Beautiful.

Thank you, thank you so much. I don't know if there's anything else you wanna add and perhaps would you like to share anything about a project you're working on or perhaps a book that you just came out with? We'd love to know the latest things you're working on. That's sweet of you, thank you. I'm working on a new book now in terms of like Panic and Panic Disorder 14. So I'm working on that and I'm hoping that perhaps that'll come out next year, but that's the project. when people ask me about like, you you write so many books, Michael, how do you do that? And my answer is because I don't play golf. That is my answer. that's what I'm doing with my time. And you've shared with me that it's meaningful for you. And it is very meaningful for me. Golf is not meaningful to me.

I don't say that to take away from a fantastic sport and anyone who finds passion and meaning in that enterprise. That's not where meaning is for me. So writing is where I find meaning. So it's cool. It's fun. I like using my time in that way. That's great. Yes. Super. Okay. It's been an absolute treat and pleasure.

Thank you for me as well. I'm going to include a link to your website in case our listeners would like to take a look at how to reach out to you or learn more about you. Thank you again for your time and we'll be in touch soon. My pleasure Maria. Thank you. Thanks so much. We have a lot to think about and further dissect in our coming episodes and we'll be looking forward to that.

Thank you for listening to this episode of Meaning vs. Merit. If you liked the episode or think it would be helpful for someone else, please leave a review of it on your podcast listening app, such as Apple Podcasts, where you scroll all the way down to the rating and review section and can leave a review there. Or you can review it on podchaser.com. If you have any questions that you want me to discuss on this show, let me know on LinkedIn or Instagram at Dr. Maria Christina.

Until next time, I'm going to encourage you to think about our two &Ms, meaning and merit, and see what happens when we embrace meaning first and allow merit to follow. See you next time.

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