Shownotes
If you’ve ever laid awake exhausted, replaying your to-do list at 2AM, wondering why you still feel tired no matter how much sleep you get, this episode is for you.
In this Expert Interview on The Hairy Chin Podcast, I welcome Dr. Alison Kole, a triple board-certified sleep medicine physician, to talk about insomnia, sleep apnea, burnout, ADHD, exhaustion, supplements, jet lag, screen time, and why women’s sleep problems are so often dismissed.
Dr. Kole shares practical sleep tools, insomnia techniques, red flag symptoms women should never ignore, and what to actually say to a doctor if you think something deeper is going on with your sleep.
We also discuss why women wait years to seek help, how chronic stress impacts sleep quality, the dangers of blindly trusting sleep supplements online, and how social media, modern life, and overstimulation are affecting our nervous systems.
If you’ve ever wondered whether your exhaustion is “normal,” struggled to advocate for yourself in a doctor’s office, or felt frustrated trying to fix your sleep on your own, come join us for this conversation.
Timestamps:
[00:01:19] Why Women Are So Exhausted
[00:06:30] Burnout and Boundaries
[00:11:00] Why Women Wait Too Long To Get Help
[00:13:30] Fatigue, Labs & Being Dismissed
[00:17:00] Sleep Apnea Symptoms in Women
[00:21:25] What To Say to Your Doctor About Sleep
[00:30:20] Melatonin, Supplements, Sleep Scams and CBT
[00:38:30] Sleep Divorce, Scandinavian Sleep Method & Shared Beds
[00:43:35] Earplugs, Sleep Tech & Noise Sensitivity
[00:45:15] Wake Times, Jet Lag, Light & Circadian Rhythm
[00:50:30] Screens, Brightness & ADHD/Neurodivergence
[00:55:40] Where To Find Dr. Alison Kole
Resources From This Episode:
Sleep Is My Waking Passion Podcast
Dr. Alison Kole's Sleep Picks (earbuds, supplements, etc.)
More from The Hairy Chin:
Disclaimer: The Hairy Chin does not provide medical advice. All content is for informational purposes only. Please consult a qualified healthcare professional for personal medical concerns.
Transcripts
Speaker 1
She literally said, "I can't believe that I waited 25 years to get a diagnosis that I really thought I had." We are not trained in medical school, I can assure you, and we are certainly not trained in residency to say, "Maybe
[:Speaker 2
it's your sleep." Today I'm joined by Dr. Allison Cole.
[:Speaker 2
Allison is a triple board certified sleep medicine physician with a background in pulmonary and critical care. She's also the host of Sleep is My Waking Passion podcast. By the end of this conversation, Dr. Cole will show you exactly what to say at your next doctor's appointment and how to start treating your sleep like the medical issue it actually is.
[:Speaker 2
Welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy to chat with you today.
[:( Pause )
[:Speaker 2
Yeah, well, you know, I really think that you can because what I really appreciate about your work is that you really focus on evidence and clarity and just kind of no nonsense. You know, you call out the misinformation. And so I think this is going to be a great conversation.
[:Speaker 2
So what I'd love to start with is kind of where women get lost in the system. Because we talk a lot about how the medical system is failing women. And I do believe that that's true. I also think that women now have a very big responsibility of actively participating in their health.
[:Speaker 2
And so what I'd love to do is chat about why do you think exhaustion has become a baseline for women and how much of that do you think comes from sleep?
[:( Pause )
[:Speaker 3
It is.
[:( Pause )
[:Speaker 1
to actually grow and succeed to be the dominant, quote unquote, species on this planet is through forming social networks. And so, in that social gathering, it became the norm for us to want to be part of a group. And being part of a group means that there's going to be people within that group that start to make rules about what is okay, what is not okay, what is accepted behavior, what is not accepted behavior. And that back in the day of the saber-toothed tiger may have been the difference between you surviving versus you being the one left on your own abandoned and with very low probability of surviving, right? Taking that a step forward, what's happened is, culturally, women have been conditioned even before we had as many rights as we do now, which hopefully will continue from my lips to God's ears. We won't see the stripping of those we work so hard for, particularly in the United States. The reality is that we as women have had responsibilities that have been thrust upon us. You're going to be the family responsibilities,
[:Speaker 1
the children responsibilities, even the caregiver responsibilities for our elderly parents. The responsibility sort of falls on us. If you really think about the dialogue about men coming to the workplace after having a baby, especially in this country, for example, they're not getting a whole lot of fraternity leave, right? It's like, and it's not even a thought where, "Hey, are you struggling because of childcare for most men?" That's not even a dialogue that's ever going to come up, whereas people may go, "Well, she just had a baby. She's going to be able to still continue to do her job." Now you're throwing us now having the ability to... It's a luxury, really, and I relish it the fact that I was able to go to medical school, that I had that opportunity. My mom was a nurse in the 70s. She came over from Korea. She had three choices. You're going to be a teacher, a nurse, or you were going to be a housewife, and that was it. So I am very, very appreciative of the opportunities I've had to get to where I am for us to even have this dialogue, but it does mean that on top of my work responsibilities, once I got married, had family, et cetera, now I have all these other responsibilities layered on top of that. And so all we do as women is accept more and more and more responsibility, and it's not always equally distributed. And then on top of which, even that layer of cultural conditioning, are we going to push back if our husbands are like, "Well, that's your responsibility." There's going to be some innate relation, and how did your parents behave toward each other? Was it an equal responsibility situation, or did mom take a back seat and dad can't rent the household? There's so many layers to this about why women are exhausted, but at the same time, we were not brought up to really be able to create boundaries, to say, "No, I don't have to do it all. I'm allowed to be a professional and be a mom and be a caretaker to my parents or what have you, and I can do so by also being able to dole out other responsibilities to other family members,
[:Speaker 4
Right.
[:Speaker 2
I totally agree, and I love that you say this because I don't think that it's as black and white as women are not getting enough sleep. I mean, I think sleep is a big factor of being able to regenerate and to feel good. Sleep is so important physiologically, but women are exhausted for so many other reasons than just sleep. I do think that, you know, there's this narrative of putting yourself first, you know, but women are not conditioned to be selfish. I mean, we're conditioned to take care of other people. We are caretakers, and a lot of times, people pleasers. And I think that finding your voice and being able to set boundaries is a skill set. It's not a personality. It's a skill set to say, "I need to
[:Speaker 2
have an hour that's just to myself," or, "I need to say no to things without feeling guilty." Women are not conditioned to do that.
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:Speaker 1
and you're going to be successful, but rest is not important. No, you stay up those extra couple of hours to study, you don't actually sleep to study, and you will be successful. And then what ended up happening was, a cycle, I can say that for my personal life. All the stuff I do when I was younger, I mean, all the stuff I do now, I never did when I was younger, I never prioritize my sleep. If I needed to stay up, I maybe got two hours before I went into that exam because I thought that I was going to get an extra question right on the test. But then what happened? I graduated, I got good grades, right? I was able to go to medical school. So it all was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Well, if I behave this way, then the outcome is going to
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:Speaker 2
Yeah.
[:Speaker 1
just aging and hormonal changes and life changes that really is the kicker for us to have this awakening, the second awakening. But man, is it amazing. And if I could teach the 20 year old version of me to be the awake person I am now, imagine, just imagine what the outcome would be. I had to go through a lot to get to where I am today. I am grateful for all of it, but some of those lessons were a real punch in
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:Speaker 2
No. And I remember there was a long period, because sleep now has kind of been this narrative, and a lot of, especially, you know, we have so much more access to internet now. When I was a child, I mean, I was playing Oregon Trail on the computer. We didn't have so much internet. So, you know, but I remember everybody saying, "Oh, I can get away with five, six hours of sleep a night. I don't sleep a lot. I don't need sleep." And it was like this, you know, badge of honor. "Oh, I don't need eight hours of sleep. Wow, you must, you know, you're so lazy." And so I think that's really shifted now, people realizing that sleep is so important. But then, you know, with these modern lifestyles, and we're in front of screens a lot, and we're very busy, and we have all these responsibilities, then it's like, "Okay, you need more sleep, but it's not happening." Women are not sleeping. They're waking up in the middle of the night with their to-do list, or they're laying in bed at night with their list for tomorrow of, "What did I forget for today?" And I think that's where a lot of frustration comes, is knowing that sleep is so vital for, you know, replenishing our energy and our body and letting our bodies heal. But we're not sleeping. We can't.
[:Speaker 2
Right.
[:Speaker 2
I would love to kind of ask you about, you know, women, we know sleep is important when men are having a problem sleeping, but how many of them actually come in and see you? Like, let me rephrase that. I know that
[:Speaker 2
I feel like women wait too long. They think, "This is not a problem." They're not sleeping. They're having issues. They're exhausted. They're tired. But, you know, maybe this isn't a big deal. It's not necessary for me to see a specialist. Do you find that women wait too long before they are in front of you in your office?
[:Speaker 3
Okay.
[:Speaker 1
else.
[:Speaker 1
So going to what you mentioned first, coming too late, a lot of times, I'm not going to be as a sleep specialist specifically, the first person a woman's going to go to for a sleep complaint. Nowadays, with the change in people actually being able to be proactive and me switching to telemedicine, there's certainly people are like, I'm just going to, you know, I'm not going to bother talking to my PCP about it. I'm just going to make an appointment with Dr. Cole or whoever the sleep specialist may be to discuss this. So there is a paradigm shift somewhat there. But for the most part, especially if you're going to a brick and mortar medical group to go see your doctor and you're using all the standard pathways that we usually do, most often a woman is probably getting her care by either her primary care
[:Speaker 2
Yes. Okay.
[:Speaker 3
Okay.
[:Speaker 2
I also think I will say, just to say, I also think they focus on the labs. If it is going to show up in a lab, in a lab analysis, they are going to focus on that. If you have high cholesterol, you have early signs of heart disease, they are going to really pay attention because it's tangible. They can see what is helping, what is not helping. But when you come in with fatigue or tired or something like that that is not so tangible and never shows up on a blood test, good luck. You know?
[:Speaker 3
Yes.
[:Speaker 1
these vague symptoms. It can be 400 different things. And so they're sort of like, ah,
[:Speaker 3
Yes.
[:Speaker 3
Right.
[:Speaker 2
Right. Right.
[:Speaker 2
Okay. No, please.
[:Speaker 4
Yes.
[:Speaker 3
Mm hmm.
[:Speaker 3
Mm hmm.
[:Speaker 1
a decade close to many times. Like they've just had little subtle things. The other thing too, that also happens, speaking of us not making ourselves a priority, is it's like, do I really want to take time out of my day to go talk to a sleep specialist? Like I've got 400 other things to do. My to-do list is a million miles long. I've got to take my kids here and so on, so when I'm going to do this, we ignore it. And that's data
[:Speaker 1
that if you apply it to cardiovascular disease is that much more compelling. Meaning that women are much later to the party to address things like their high cholesterol, their family history of coronary artery disease, and they end up showing up with more major adverse cardiac events, strokes, heart attacks, et cetera. So when they do present, they're much further along than men in their journey and they have much more severe disease. That,
[:Speaker 1
oops, sorry, just hit my microphone. That
[:Speaker 2
Yes. Please, guess of course.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Uh-huh.
[:Speaker 3
Uh-huh.
[:Speaker 1
And even maybe our significant others are like, "Well, it's a cute little purr. It's not that bad. No big deal." But then there's other things like, "Well, I have chronic pain and it's really hard for me to get up and I feel really exhausted all the time." But I've lived with rheumatoid arthritis for a bazillion years. I don't know. No one has ever told me I gasp in my sleep. Another big ticket red flag item, if you're listening, could be important, especially for sleep apnea, which is incredibly common even in women. And then you layer on that this is an older woman. So she's been having symptoms for a long time, but now she's like menopausal. And so the risk for some certain sleep disorders like sleep apnea increases with age, restless legs increases with age. So here's this woman coming with these symptoms that she's had for a long time, but now feeling finally ready to address it. Long story short, we diagnose her. She has substantial sleep apnea. Fast forward, I now have her on treatment.
[:Speaker 1
Her life is so different that she says, "I'm going to be..." This is a woman who can get her care at Stanford, just to give you a sense of which is a major academic institution and is specifically in the sleep realm, incredibly important. I don't work for Stanford, but I did see her for the sleep evaluation. She's going to her rheumatology. She's saying, "I want every single woman who has rheumatoid arthritis to be screened for sleep apnea. I think it's a missed opportunity." She's like, "I'm going to my primary care." And I'm saying how all of his patients need to be screened for sleep apnea if they're having sleep troubles, because this is how important it is. She literally said, "I can't believe that I waited 25 years to get a diagnosis that I really thought I had." She's on less pain medication because she's better. And when you sleep better, you have a
[:Speaker 3
S-S-S-S.
[:Speaker 1
things, she's like a changed person and she cannot believe she waited so many years. So please,
[:Speaker 1
especially if you're having any of your red flag symptoms, or quite frankly, if you're talking to your primary or OBGYN and they're sort of like, "Ah, you
[:Speaker 1
you as a sleep doctor, we don't bite. We're very, and honestly, sleep often can be a dialogue that does not have to happen in the doctor's office and that is how I'm seeing a lot of my patients. Yes, I have a physical location where I do see patients in the flesh and I love that, but there are for really busy professionals, for example, or folks that, you know, they just simply can't make that space because they have too many other responsibilities. This is 40 minutes out of your day to go talk to a doctor that you just literally pop online and have a chat and that could set you in the motion of having a completely different life moving forward, one filled with restorative, amazing
[:Speaker 2
So I've thought about a couple of things that you've been sharing in your anecdotes. So I'm curious about, you've talked about some red flags that they can look out for, but what type of language would you recommend? Because I do think that there's a lot of miscommunication that can happen in a doctor's office. For example, a woman goes in and says, "I'm tired. I'm not sleeping well." But there's a, you know, the devil's in the details. I mean, we need to be able to practice how we communicate our symptoms and our problems with our physicians. So is there certain language that you really flag as like, "Okay, that points me to this," or, "That will point me to that." Or perhaps that women can use seeing their general practitioners who aren't trained in sleep. That could maybe be that flag to say, "You need to see a sleep
[:Speaker 3
I love it.
[:Speaker 3
Sure.
[:Speaker 1
adjunctive. You can print out that data and you can present it to the doctor so they can take a peek at it. But a simple sleep diary of just tracking when you're going to bed, when you perceive, yeah, I'm in bed, but did I actually fall asleep at this time? And again, don't make it like I've looked at electronics to determine the exact time that I feel like I'm going to go to sleep, but more get a guesstimation. What time are you waking up? Do you have a regular wake up time? Start to track that, gee, I sleep in on the weekends and then I'm really screwed on Sunday when I go to try to get back in rhythm. That's a helpful thing that especially a sleep doctor's going to want to look at. If you're talking to your GP,
[:Speaker 1
red flag symptoms that I kind of highlighted already would be, hey, I'm snoring and I'm snoring a lot and very frequently.
[:Speaker 1
I have been told, even if it's been once or twice in your life that I've gasped, I went on a vacation and someone commented that they thought I, you know, I sounded like I was dying in my sleep. That's another one. Do you have headaches in the morning and you just can't explain it or really bad migraines? Sometimes that's a flag for sleep apnea. Another thing is if you're peeing a lot during the night, that is an atypical symptom that often plagues women. Yes, your doctor's more likely to be like, I think you need, you might need to go see a urologist. Great. Okay. Maybe you do for bladder prolapse, et cetera, but just know that if you're sleeping well and it's waking you up a lot at night, it could represent a sleep disorder. Are you kicking your legs a lot?
[:Speaker 1
Are you just generally feeling that you're, like I said, your sleep quality isn't there, like there's something going on with your sleep. But if you can lump multiple symptoms all in one pathway where you're like, I feel like my sleep is, wrong with it because of these reasons,
[:Speaker 1
that would be an indication to say, who do you have a sleep doctor that you recommend? That's the other thing that I think could be helpful is right out the gate. If you think that you want to talk to somebody, but you don't have no idea where to go, bug your doctor about it, bug your primary about it, bug your OBGYN and be like, I think there's a sleep thing going on here. I really want to see someone. Who do you recommend? They may, in their network of people, have someone. They go, oh, I really like this person. I think you should go see them.
[:Speaker 1
Again, like I said, if you're in a rural area and you don't have access to someone, just know that there are multiple telemedicine platforms that are out there and people are able to see you in your neck of the woods, believe it or not.
[:Speaker 1
It's possible to have access to that. I would say those are some key tip offs. If there's a certain
[:Speaker 1
other red flag kind of things that are really important, if you're so sleepy that you literally fear for the safety of yourself or for members of your family, like your children, because you get up and you can't get going and you're afraid that you are somehow going to be crashing your car, do your sleepiness, huge red flag. The ears of your doctor will perk up.
[:Speaker 1
If you are finding that you literally can barely function to be present for your kids at various games or what have you or responsibilities, you're like, I feel like I could go take a nap in my car. I can't even enjoy my kids' soccer game because I'm going to fall asleep. Again, things that really are like, gee, my sleep is truly a problem. Even if you're afraid, and this sometimes happens, that your doctor somehow is going to sort of poo poo your symptoms or make you feel as though your symptoms aren't
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Exactly.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Exactly.
[:Speaker 1
say. I mean, if I need, if I think there's a septic patient or someone who's doing really bad, probably should admit this, but I have, you know, if I've, if I needed somebody who I knew was going to have an issue and the way their presentation is, is too complicated for the person at the ER to get it, I'm like, just freaking tell them you have chest pain. They will get you in
[:Speaker 3
Right.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Right.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 1
because you always have lung. Like if I know something else is going on, sometimes it's the only way to do it. Again, we can, this is a complete tangent from what we're really talking about, but I've even called the ER to explain why a patient needs what they need. But
[:Speaker 2
No, I really appreciate that
[:Speaker 2
because I do think that a lot of people are dismissed and you really do have to push to get the care sometimes that you deserve. And I think it's wonderful, the doctors that advocate for the patients because I don't think that there are a lot that go above and beyond for their patients. I do think they're very amazing doctors and I appreciate very much the field, but I think that people really do have to push to advocate for themselves.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 1
onion a little bit and be like, I'm going to go this way. You know, I'm going to, they told me to go left. I'm going to go right. Cause I think that's the better option, but I kind of know how messed up it is. You know, so
[:Speaker 2
No, I agree and I think also there's a confidence level here that some, you know, you're a physician, your mom was a nurse, I come from a family of doctors and I've seen kind of how the medical system works from being inside of it, not as a physician myself, but as a patient for a long time. And I think sometimes people take what a doctor says 100% and they say, "Well, that's just the end, that's the story." And so it's kind of saying, you know, pushing and knowing that it's okay to push, knowing that it's okay to ask more questions or to ask for a referral. I think a lot of women feel like what they are told, that's the end of the, you know, that's the period, end of sentence. And I don't accept that. I think that, you know, there's always other options and that's important to know.
[:Speaker 1
ng this conversation in early: [:Speaker 3
Yes.
[:Speaker 2
One thing I want to kind of segue into is that for people that perhaps don't have access to seeing a private clinic or maybe they're not being heard in the doctor, perhaps then they go online and they say, "Well, I'm not falling asleep and I'm really struggling to get sleep at night, so I'm going to take melatonin or I'm going to take some supplements to help me." So there's a real danger in this that I think is really important that we address. And one thing that I recently saw in your Instagram account, which we'll mention later, is there was an advertisement for a supplement with your colleague's face on it and it was not your colleague's supplement. So I would love for you to talk about that and let's talk about what happens when there's not access to this treatment and women start treating themselves with supplements and
[:Speaker 1
relationship with your bedroom and your bed that is not antagonistic. So you're sort of deprogramming the condition response that happens over years where we sort of fight the sleep environment because you want to wind down for night and you're like, it also teaches about stimulus control, meaning we need to do the behaviors before we go to bed with a simple bedtime routine that allows us to be able to surrender to sleep because sleep is not something that you can control or force. It's something that you have to let happen. And so adjusting your expectations about it can be huge.
[:Speaker 1
Melatonin, you have, and any of these supplements, you have to be very careful about where they're manufactured. And one of the biggest risks happens to be with gummies because you may not be getting what you think you're getting in it. So you want things that are third party verified. Some of the supplements that are relatively inexpensive on the market and have been well vetted over the years are things like a brand like Nature
[:Speaker 3
Yeah.
[:Speaker 1
also are third party verified. But at the end of the day, before you go dishing out 60 bucks for supplements, what's your copay to go talk to a professional? Okay. Cause if your copay is less than that, don't buy the supplement, make the time out of your day to do that.
[:Speaker 1
And that also goes for folks that even if they don't have great access to healthcare, you can get, you know, sleep, tell medicine visits very inexpensively these days. So instead of spending the hundred something, think about what the economics are, right? Of that supplement that may not work. And also who's telling you who these supplements are? I mean, the scary thing about the post I did on Instagram, and I appreciate you bringing that up because it's such an important public service announcement is they literally took a picture of my colleague, like a professional picture that she has on LinkedIn and they put a different name and said, this is Dr. Sophia, blah, blah, blah. And then they gave a whole dissertation about all the research she's done within her own clinic and how she's discovered this supplement works.
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Right.
[:Speaker 2
Right. Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
The--
[:Speaker 2
It's true. Yeah.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Right.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 1
know, have they ever caused liver problems? Do they cause renal failure? Do they make your kidneys not work properly? Some of these supplements have the potential to be dangerous or have much more narrow therapeutic
[:Speaker 1
window, as we like to say in the medical parlance, where you really can only be exposed to a very low dose of it or it could be dangerous potentially, even if they're considered to be Chinese herbs and things like that. So I just think a lot of things need to be better studied in a more controlled environment for us to truly understand their impact. But just know that the reason that medical professionals aren't giving them out like it's candy is because the data is not there to really support them. It's not because that one company knows what they're doing above all else. It just simply is not the case.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:Speaker 2
I have that as well, and I agree. It completely changes kind of the fulfillment and joy in life when you really feel like you have that ride-or-die partner next to you. Yes.
[:Speaker 1
certainly it's been in my life. So, there are people who might go, oh, I'm going to ruin my relationship with the other person if they were in a separate room. But in certain circumstances, it can work. For example, if your partner has a completely different circadian rhythm than you, if you're a really early morning person and want to go to bed early and they're a really late person, it might disrupt your sleep to have them be in the bed next to you. If they are unfortunately not willing to contend with their own probable sleep
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Right.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Hmm.
[:Speaker 3
Of course.
[:Speaker 1
sleep divorce is very relevant. Another way that you can still stay in the same bed with your partner,
[:Speaker 1
there's another tool in the toolbox called the Scandinavian sleep method. And it's basically, imagine, yes, you've got
[:Speaker 2
Nah.
[:Speaker 1
in the night. And I woke up the other day and he had a sheet on him and I'm like, "Oh, he's right. I do steal all the blankets." I didn't think about it. So, we've talked about if we have a queen bed and we're going to upgrade. So, when we upgrade,
[:Speaker 2
Right.
[:Speaker 2
Yeah.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 1
I know I'm going to get so much flack for this, but I really don't believe in having animals in the bed. I don't. I think animals should be, if you have a dog, they should be created.
[:Speaker 2
And you mean pets, not children.
[:(Laughing)
[:Speaker 2
I'm kidding. Is it Jo?
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:Speaker 1
I did front load was plenty of cuddle time. So, I always reserved hours to make sure that they really felt like mommy and daddy have our attention because we have lead such busy lives. And I learned this from a toddler sleep expert who said when your kids often feel very secure, like they've had enough time with you, they often can kind of surrender themselves to sleep a little bit easier. So, that's one of the tricks I did. I mean granted, there's going to be times when they're just having a rough night and they're going to be in your bed, well listen, that's just life.
[:Speaker 3
Yeah.
[:Speaker 2
It's true.
[:Speaker 2
Sure. What do you think about wearing earplugs to bed at night?
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:Speaker 3
Oh, wow.
[:Speaker 2
I'm that person. I need something to just distract my brain so I can fall asleep. Yeah.
[:Speaker 2
That's why I asked you is because I've tried--I'm a really light sleeper. I wake up to just little tiny noises and so I started trying some earphones but they all kind of extend out and I worry that they're going to pressure my ear canal and cause damage or cause some--and they're not comfortable. I end up waking them up the night and they're kind of all over the bed. So I love that that's flat. That seems
[:Speaker 2
helpful.
[:Speaker 1
And the other thing is that the folks that invented it also had formal experience working for another large major company that makes earbuds. And so, it is very specifically designed so it's not going to damage the eardrum. You know, that the sound is going to be safe for you.
[:Speaker 2
Oh,
[:Speaker 2
that's fantastic.
[:Speaker 2
I would ask you--I mean, we've covered a lot but I would kind of ask like what is one popular sleep truth that you would unravel?
[:Speaker 2
Like for example, something that people think is true that you would say, "No, this really isn't true."
[:Speaker 2
Do you have anything that comes?
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:Speaker 3
Okay.
[:Speaker 3
Mahon?
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:Speaker 3
Right.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Sure. Sure. That's interesting. You know, I live in Barcelona. I grew up in the States from--in North Carolina and I deal with a lot of jet lag when I travel. And one of the things that I read was sunlight. Don't wear sunglasses when you're traveling, especially in the morning when you're trying to get back on that schedule. Get your sunlight. But it also depends if you're going east or if you're going west because sometimes a little bit of light in the afternoon I've read is better to help sometimes in the morning. But
[:Speaker 2
I do find that trying to get back to the day where I am is helpful with the light. What do you think about that?
[:Speaker 1
so confusing to go east, go west. It's hard to wrap your head around. I have a pretty good sense of what I need to do these days. But one of the cheats,
[:Speaker 1
because I've tried it, you could either plug it into AI when exactly the time that you're traveling. Okay, I'm going here at this time and I'm arriving at this time and I'm going to be here for so many days and then I'm returning at this time and then I'm going to land at this time. You can plug in all that information and AI is probably going to give you a pretty good answer, or you could do what I love. It's 25 bucks for the year. So if you travel, it is worth those 25 bucks. There is an app called the TimeShifter app that you download. It is so easy. My husband just has a membership for United Club and he
[:(Laughs)
[:Speaker 2
Yeah.
[:Speaker 3
Okay.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 1
later than you really are capable of or ask you to sleep when you're like, "I've just slept all night. I don't think I could sleep." But if you just do things like, I would say for travel, especially, get eye shades.
[:Speaker 1
Travel with eye shades, travel with noise canceling, whatever it is, and the TimeShifter app and do what it
[:Speaker 2
Wow.
[:Speaker 2
I'm so excited to know this because I mean, jet lag is just such a thing that I deal with and I can't wait. I'm going to give you an update when I try it. I'm really excited.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Fantastic. Well, look, I have one last question for you, but before I ask it, I'm curious if you have anything else you want to add. Is there anything that we've missed that you want to talk about?
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
It's okay.
[:Speaker 3
It's
[:Speaker 3
okay.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 1
all things sleep on the Sleep is My Waking Passion podcast. So please, I have a pretty big following on YouTube and we are growing people. We're really creating a movement around sleep and I'm very proud of that. So please join the movement and you probably will learn some really cool stuff along
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
I love that. We're going to plug you up more in just a minute because I'm going to share with the audience how they can find you, but my very last question for you, this wonderful conversation is screens or no screens before bed?
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
I know it isn't lifted, but if you could give us, yeah.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 1
the strongest length historically. At the end of the day, it's really about brightness. That's what I've learned, and also the meaning behind the consumption. So
[:Speaker 1
those are two factors. And then there comes in the neurodivergent piece. So for people who have more neurodivergent or neurospicy brains, that they may really benefit from having some of that screen distraction because
[:Speaker 2
Yes, very much.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 1
wrong advice for them. Then you have the brightness factor and what you are consuming. So everyone needs to always know that when you join the social media crowd and even the Google crowd, even if you're not social media and you're just looking stuff up on Google, just good old fashioned search engine crowd, what you're doing is you're entering into an arena of advertising and an arena where somebody is trying to sell you something. Always.
[:Speaker 1
When that happens, it means they are vying for your attention.
[:Speaker 1
When they are vying for your attention, the more attention you give this platform, the more you're likely to purchase something. Remember that where your attention goes, your energy flows. So when you're giving these companies your energy, that's energy that you are, that's your life force. That currency. You're never getting that back. You've now given it away. So I'm not saying don't use technology, but put guardrails around it. I quite literally do this because of the nature of what I do now. I never paid attention to social media the way I do now, but I have to for the podcast, et cetera. So I will actually be like, "All right, I know I'm going to look at this. I know I'm going to go to rabbit hole and some of this stuff is going to be kind of cool. What I'm going to do is I'm going to say I can only have it for about an hour.
[:Speaker 1
I'm just like, I'm indulging, but I'm not indulging past this time. Now I do it where I know. I'm like, "Okay, my hours up were good. I'm going to shut this off." But there was a point in time where I literally physically set an alarm. The other thing too is pay attention to who's watching you with what you're doing. Because whatever you do, your kids are going to do. That has been perhaps the biggest police force for me is because even when I've spent five or 10 minutes, because I've got to answer a quick text message, or somebody from social media team is asking me X, Y, or Z, and I have to answer them, my kids are like, "Why are you on social media? Why aren't you spending time with us?" They get in my face and I'm like, "Oh my goodness. I don't want to be that person where the Cat in the Cradle song, where I grow up and where my kids grow up," and then they're like, "You didn't make time for us and we don't make time for you." That would be horrible. So I think about me as someone who's an example to others and what I want their behavior
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Of course.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 4
Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Yeah.
[:Speaker 2
I
[:Speaker 2
agree with all that you said, and you know, I don't think that it's wrong that the verb we use for using social media and technology is consume. Because you think about it, you consume food. And we talk about how we are what we eat, you know, we need to consume healthy foods to feel healthy and good. When we are what we consume in terms of technology, in terms of social media, they can very much affect how we feel about life ourselves. We can set expectations. We can compare. It's so important to be intentional about what you are consuming in all ways of your life, right?
[:Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, let's talk about where people can find you, because you are a wealth of knowledge and information. So I would love to talk about where they can find you across your platforms.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 1
it just contains the podcast, which I'm really proud of. I talk to some really amazing people and I have learned so much for this journey and I know you will too.
[:Speaker 1
My handle is Ask The Sleep MD, but the name of the podcast again is Sleep Is My Waking Passion. I do have a website, askthesleepmd.com, which I did speak about earlier. Then if you'd like to work with me, I have a concierge arm. Oak Health Center is the sleep telemedicine group that I started. This is the program that I started through a mental health facility. It's been a really unique experience to work with them. There I am concierge, but you truly do get concierge access. You want to meet this week? We find time to meet this week. It is very much a back and forth communication. I spend longer time with you. We can do up to 60 minute visits if we need to. This is really about us coming together to work on very complex sleep issues. If you want to stick more in the traditional medical model, I do see patients in four states, New Jersey, New York, California, and Georgia, through Agnome Sleep.
[:Speaker 1
O-G-N-O-M-Y, Agnome Sleep. I work with a great set of individuals. I'm a medical director there and it's been really fun to join forces with them. If you are living in New Jersey and you'd like to see me in person, you can find me at Patient First MD in
[:Speaker 2
That's fantastic. I love how accessible you are, because really anybody can find you and work with you and learn from you. And I think that's fantastic.
[:Speaker 2
Thank you so much for being here. This has been a wonderful conversation you've shared so much. I think, you know, advocacy is a skill set. It's not a personality. It's not something that we've really ever been taught as women. I think it's something that we have to learn. And you have offered so much helpful information today. Thank you.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Yes, yes, I love that.
[:Speaker 1
She literally said, "I can't believe that I waited 25 years to get a diagnosis that I really thought I had." We are not trained in medical school, I can assure you, and we are certainly not trained in residency to say, "Maybe
[:Speaker 2
it's your sleep." Today I'm joined by Dr. Allison Cole.
[:Speaker 2
Allison is a triple board certified sleep medicine physician with a background in pulmonary and critical care. She's also the host of Sleep is My Waking Passion podcast. By the end of this conversation, Dr. Cole will show you exactly what to say at your next doctor's appointment and how to start treating your sleep like the medical issue it actually is.
[:Speaker 2
Welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy to chat with you today.
[:( Pause )
[:Speaker 2
Yeah, well, you know, I really think that you can because what I really appreciate about your work is that you really focus on evidence and clarity and just kind of no nonsense. You know, you call out the misinformation. And so I think this is going to be a great conversation.
[:Speaker 2
So what I'd love to start with is kind of where women get lost in the system. Because we talk a lot about how the medical system is failing women. And I do believe that that's true. I also think that women now have a very big responsibility of actively participating in their health.
[:Speaker 2
And so what I'd love to do is chat about why do you think exhaustion has become a baseline for women and how much of that do you think comes from sleep?
[:( Pause )
[:Speaker 3
It is.
[:( Pause )
[:Speaker 2
Right? Yes?
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:Speaker 3
Right. Right.
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:Speaker 3
Right.
[:Speaker 4
Right.
[:Speaker 2
I totally agree, and I love that you say this because I don't think that it's as black and white as women are not getting enough sleep. I mean, I think sleep is a big factor of being able to regenerate and to feel good. Sleep is so important physiologically, but women are exhausted for so many other reasons than just sleep. I do think that, you know, there's this narrative of putting yourself first, you know, but women are not conditioned to be selfish. I mean, we're conditioned to take care of other people. We are caretakers, and a lot of times, people pleasers. And I think that finding your voice and being able to set boundaries is a skill set. It's not a personality. It's a skill set to say, "I need to
[:Speaker 2
have an hour that's just to myself," or, "I need to say no to things without feeling guilty." Women are not conditioned to do that.
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:Speaker 2
Right.
[:Speaker 3
Right.
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:Speaker 2
Yeah.
[:Speaker 3
Yeah.
[:Speaker 3
Yeah.
[:Speaker 2
I know.
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:Speaker 2
No. And I remember there was a long period, because sleep now has kind of been this narrative, and a lot of, especially, you know, we have so much more access to internet now. When I was a child, I mean, I was playing Oregon Trail on the computer. We didn't have so much internet. So, you know, but I remember everybody saying, "Oh, I can get away with five, six hours of sleep a night. I don't sleep a lot. I don't need sleep." And it was like this, you know, badge of honor. "Oh, I don't need eight hours of sleep. Wow, you must, you know, you're so lazy." And so I think that's really shifted now, people realizing that sleep is so important. But then, you know, with these modern lifestyles, and we're in front of screens a lot, and we're very busy, and we have all these responsibilities, then it's like, "Okay, you need more sleep, but it's not happening." Women are not sleeping. They're waking up in the middle of the night with their to-do list, or they're laying in bed at night with their list for tomorrow of, "What did I forget for today?" And I think that's where a lot of frustration comes, is knowing that sleep is so vital for, you know, replenishing our energy and our body and letting our bodies heal. But we're not sleeping. We can't.
[:Speaker 2
Right.
[:Speaker 2
I would love to kind of ask you about, you know, women, we know sleep is important when men are having a problem sleeping, but how many of them actually come in and see you? Like, let me rephrase that. I know that
[:Speaker 2
I feel like women wait too long. They think, "This is not a problem." They're not sleeping. They're having issues. They're exhausted. They're tired. But, you know, maybe this isn't a big deal. It's not necessary for me to see a specialist. Do you find that women wait too long before they are in front of you in your office?
[:Speaker 3
Okay.
[:Speaker 2
Right.
[:Speaker 3
Right.
[:Speaker 2
Yes. Okay.
[:Speaker 3
Okay.
[:Speaker 2
I also think I will say, just to say, I also think they focus on the labs. If it is going to show up in a lab, in a lab analysis, they are going to focus on that. If you have high cholesterol, you have early signs of heart disease, they are going to really pay attention because it's tangible. They can see what is helping, what is not helping. But when you come in with fatigue or tired or something like that that is not so tangible and never shows up on a blood test, good luck. You know?
[:Speaker 3
Yes.
[:Speaker 3
Yes.
[:Speaker 3
Right.
[:Speaker 2
Right. Right.
[:Speaker 2
Okay. No, please.
[:Speaker 4
Yes.
[:Speaker 3
Mm hmm.
[:Speaker 3
Mm hmm.
[:Speaker 3
Mm hmm.
[:Speaker 3
Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Yes. Please, guess of course.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Uh-huh.
[:Speaker 3
Uh-huh.
[:Speaker 3
Uh-huh.
[:Speaker 3
S-S-S. S-S-S.
[:Speaker 3
S-S-S. S-S-S. S-S-S.
[:Speaker 3
S-S-S. Baby.
[:Speaker 3
S-S-S.
[:Speaker 3
S-S-S. S-S-S.
[:Speaker 3
S-S-S. S-S-S. S-S-S.
[:Speaker 3
S-S-S-S. S-S-S-S-S. S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S. S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S. S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S.
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:Speaker 3
Right.
[:Speaker 2
So I've thought about a couple of things that you've been sharing in your anecdotes. So I'm curious about, you've talked about some red flags that they can look out for, but what type of language would you recommend? Because I do think that there's a lot of miscommunication that can happen in a doctor's office. For example, a woman goes in and says, "I'm tired. I'm not sleeping well." But there's a, you know, the devil's in the details. I mean, we need to be able to practice how we communicate our symptoms and our problems with our physicians. So is there certain language that you really flag as like, "Okay, that points me to this," or, "That will point me to that." Or perhaps that women can use seeing their general practitioners who aren't trained in sleep. That could maybe be that flag to say, "You need to see a sleep
[:Speaker 3
I love it.
[:Speaker 3
Sure.
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:Speaker 4
Mm-hmm. All right.
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Who?
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Right.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Interesting.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Right.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Sure.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Sure.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Gats.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Exactly.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Exactly.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Right.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Right.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Right.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
No, I really appreciate that because I do think that a lot of people are dismissed and you really do have to push to get the care sometimes that you deserve. And I think it's wonderful, the doctors that advocate for the patients because I don't think that there are a lot that go above and beyond for their patients. I do think they're very amazing doctors and I appreciate very much the field, but I think that people really do have to push to advocate for themselves.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Right.
[:Speaker 2
No, I agree and I think also there's a confidence level here that some, you know, you're a physician, your mom was a nurse, I come from a family of doctors and I've seen kind of how the medical system works from being inside of it, not as a physician myself, but as a patient for a long time. And I think sometimes people take what a doctor says 100% and they say, "Well, that's just the end, that's the story." And so it's kind of saying, you know, pushing and knowing that it's okay to push, knowing that it's okay to ask more questions or to ask for a referral. I think a lot of women feel like what they are told, that's the end of the, you know, that's the period, end of sentence. And I don't accept that. I think that, you know, there's always other options and that's important to know.
[:Speaker 3
Yes.
[:Speaker 3
Yes.
[:Speaker 2
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
[:Speaker 3
Yes.
[:Speaker 2
One thing I want to kind of segue into is that for people that perhaps don't have access to seeing a private clinic or maybe they're not being heard in the doctor, perhaps then they go online and they say, "Well, I'm not falling asleep and I'm really struggling to get sleep at night, so I'm going to take melatonin or I'm going to take some supplements to help me." So there's a real danger in this that I think is really important that we address. And one thing that I recently saw in your Instagram account, which we'll mention later, is there was an advertisement for a supplement with your colleague's face on it and it was not your colleague's supplement. So I would love for you to talk about that and let's talk about what happens when there's not access to this treatment and women start treating themselves with supplements and
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Yoo-hoo.
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:Speaker 3
Yoo-hoo.
[:Speaker 3
Yeah.
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:(Squeaks)
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:(Squeaks)
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Right.
[:Speaker 2
Right. Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
The--
[:Speaker 2
It's true. Yeah.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Right.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Right. Exactly.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Yes.
[:Speaker 3
Right.
[:Speaker 2
Right.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:Speaker 2
I have that as well, and I agree. It completely changes kind of the fulfillment and joy in life when you really feel like you have that ride-or-die partner next to you. Yes.
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Right.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Right.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Hmm.
[:Speaker 3
Of course.
[:Speaker 4
It's that girl.
[:Speaker 4
She--
[:Speaker 2
Nah.
[:(Laughing)
[:Speaker 2
Right.
[:Speaker 2
Yeah.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Right. Yeah.
[:Speaker 2
And you mean pets, not children.
[:(Laughing)
[:Speaker 2
I'm kidding. Is it Jo?
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:Speaker 3
Swerve.
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:Speaker 2
Interesting. Okay.
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:Speaker 3
Yeah.
[:Speaker 2
It's true.
[:Speaker 2
Sure. What do you think about wearing earplugs to bed at night?
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:Speaker 3
Oh, wow.
[:Speaker 2
I'm that person. I need something to just distract my brain so I can fall asleep. Yeah.
[:Speaker 2
That's why I asked you is because I've tried--I'm a really light sleeper. I wake up to just little tiny noises and so I started trying some earphones but they all kind of extend out and I worry that they're going to pressure my ear canal and cause damage or cause some--and they're not comfortable. I end up waking them up the night and they're kind of all over the bed. So I love that that's flat. That seems
[:Speaker 2
helpful.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Perfect.
[:Speaker 2
Oh,
[:Speaker 2
that's fantastic.
[:Speaker 2
I would ask you--I mean, we've covered a lot but I would kind of ask like what is one popular sleep truth that you would unravel?
[:Speaker 2
Like for example, something that people think is true that you would say, "No, this really isn't true."
[:Speaker 2
Do you have anything that comes?
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:Speaker 3
Okay.
[:Speaker 3
Mahon?
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:Speaker 3
Right.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Sure. Sure. That's interesting. You know, I live in Barcelona. I grew up in the States from--in North Carolina and I deal with a lot of jet lag when I travel. And one of the things that I read was sunlight. Don't wear sunglasses when you're traveling, especially in the morning when you're trying to get back on that schedule. Get your sunlight. But it also depends if you're going east or if you're going west because sometimes a little bit of light in the afternoon I've read is better to help sometimes in the morning. But
[:Speaker 2
I do find that trying to get back to the day where I am is helpful with the light. What do you think about that?
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Wow.
[:(Laughs)
[:Speaker 2
Yeah.
[:Speaker 3
Okay.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Sure.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Wow.
[:Speaker 2
I'm so excited to know this because I mean, jet lag is just such a thing that I deal with and I can't wait. I'm going to give you an update when I try it. I'm really excited.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Fantastic. Well, look, I have one last question for you, but before I ask it, I'm curious if you have anything else you want to add. Is there anything that we've missed that you want to talk about?
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
It's okay.
[:Speaker 3
It's
[:Speaker 3
okay.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Yeah.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Yeah.
[:Speaker 2
Fantastic.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
I love that. We're going to plug you up more in just a minute because I'm going to share with the audience how they can find you, but my very last question for you, this wonderful conversation is screens or no screens before bed?
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
I know it isn't lifted, but if you could give us, yeah.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Okay.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Yes, very much.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Yes, yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Right, right. Of course.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Sure.
[:Speaker 3
Yeah.
[:Speaker 4
Yeah.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Great.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Right.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Right.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Sure.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Of course.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 4
Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 3
Yeah.
[:Speaker 2
I agree with all that you said, and you know, I don't think that it's wrong that the verb we use for using social media and technology is consume. Because you think about it, you consume food. And we talk about how we are what we eat, you know, we need to consume healthy foods to feel healthy and good. When we are what we consume in terms of technology, in terms of social media, they can very much affect how we feel about life ourselves. We can set expectations. We can compare. It's so important to be intentional about what you are consuming in all ways of your life, right?
[:Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, let's talk about where people can find you, because you are a wealth of knowledge and information. So I would love to talk about where they can find you across your platforms.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 4
Yes.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
That's fantastic. I love how accessible you are, because really anybody can find you and work with you and learn from you. And I think that's fantastic.
[:Speaker 2
Thank you so much for being here. This has been a wonderful conversation you've shared so much. I think, you know, advocacy is a skill set. It's not a personality. It's not something that we've really ever been taught as women. I think it's something that we have to learn. And you have offered so much helpful information today. Thank you.
[:(Silence)
[:Speaker 2
Yes, yes, I love that. Fantastic.
