What happens when work rooted in service slowly disconnects you from the very values that called you to it?

For leaders working inside humanitarian crises, nonprofits, healthcare, education, business, and other demanding systems, exhaustion can become more than physical. Margie Buchanan-Smith calls it “soul weary,” the feeling of dragging yourself from one demand to the next while losing contact with purpose.

Amy, Margie, and Dr. Margaret Benefiel, explore what it takes to stay human when need is immense, resources are shrinking, and systems increasingly reward compliance, metrics, and upward accountability. Margie brings the reality of decades in humanitarian leadership. Margaret brings a spiritual lens to organizational life, asking how leaders can draw on inner resources when systemic dysfunction cannot simply be worked around.

Replenishment emerges not as escape from responsibility, but as part of how responsibility is sustained. So do values alignment, contemplative practice, community, and the willingness to take thoughtful risks.

The work does not become less urgent when a leader pauses. Sometimes the pause restores the ability to see clearly. A breath, five quiet minutes, or an honest question about whose rules we are following can reconnect leadership with the people, purpose, and inner knowing that made the work matter in the first place.

Moments That Create Momentum:

1. When Compliance Pulls Leaders Away From Purpose – Explore how an intense focus on reporting, accountability, and organizational requirements can disconnect leaders from the people they serve and the values that brought them to the work.
2. What It Means to Become Soul Weary – Understand how sustained pressure in purpose-driven work can slowly deplete a leader’s inner resources, and why burnout can become a signal that something deeper needs attention.
3. Leading From the Inside Out – Discover why creating even a few minutes of space for reflection can help leaders reconnect with their values, balance soul and ego, and respond from a more grounded place.
4. When Success Measures Lose the Human Being – See how an overreliance on metrics, bureaucracy, and traditional definitions of success can obscure the well-being of both leaders and the people their organizations exist to serve.
5. The Difference Between Thoughtful Risk and Recklessness – Hear why trying to eliminate uncertainty can keep leaders trapped in old ways of working, while carefully judged risks create space for new possibilities to emerge.

Learn about The Soul of Leadership experience here: https://www.executivesoul.com/soulofleadership.html

About the Guests:

Margaret Benefiel, Ph.D., founder and CEO of Executive Soul, directs the Soul of Leadership program, which has been offered on four continents over the past 14 years. Over 3,000 executives, managers, and other leaders have participated in her seminars and programs. She has served as Chair of the Academy of Management's Management, Spirituality, and Religion Group, and is currently Vice President of the Society for the Study of Christian Spirituality. She served as Executive Director of the Shalem Institute for over 10 years, has served as Co-chair of the Christian Spirituality Program Unit of the American Academy of Religion, and has held various leadership roles in Spiritual Directors International. Author of Soul at Work, The Soul of a Leader, and Crisis Leadership, and co-editor of The Soul of Supervision, The Soul of Higher Education, Soul Food, and Hidden in Plain Sight, Dr. Benefiel has also written for The Leadership Quarterly, Management Communication Quarterly, Managerial Finance, Journal of Organizational Change Management, Organization, Personal Excellence, Psychology of Religion and Spirituality, America, Presence, The Way, Studies in Spirituality, Radical Grace, and Faith at Work. She lives with her husband in Greenbelt, MD. and enjoys hiking, cycling, reading novels, and scuba diving in her free time.

https://www.facebook.com/people/Executive-Soul/100057597423603/#

https://x.com/executivesoul

https://executivesoulblog.wordpress.com/

https://www.pinterest.com/executivesoul/

Margie Buchanan-Smith has been working in a range of different leadership roles in the humanitarian aid sector for over 30 years, with a current focus on the crisis in Sudan. She has conducted and published research on models of excellence in value-driven humanitarian leadership across the globe. She co-facilitates the Soul of Leadership programme in the UK with Margaret Benefiel. Margie works as an independent consultant, facilitator and coach. As a well-published policy researcher, she is a Senior Research Associate with ODI Global, a Visiting Fellow at the Feinstein Center of Tufts University, and a Fellow of the Rift Valley Institute.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/margie-buchanan-smith-2905a01/

About Amy:

Amy Lynn Durham, known by her clients as the Corporate Mystic, is the founder of the Executive Coaching Firm, Create Magic At Work®, where they help leaders build workplaces rooted in creativity, collaboration, and fulfillment. A former corporate executive turned Executive Coach, Amy blends practical leadership strategies with spiritual intelligence to unlock human potential at work.

She’s a certified Executive Coach through UC Berkeley & the International Coaching Federation (ICF) In addition, Amy holds coaching certifications in Spiritual Intelligence (SQ21), the Edgewalker Profile, and the Archetypes of Change . In addition to being the host of the Create Magic At Work® podcast, Amy is the author of Create Magic At Work®, Creating Career Magic: A Daily Prompt Journal and the founder of Magic Thread Media™. Through her work, she inspires intentional leadership for thriving workplaces and lives where “magic” becomes reality.

Connect with Amy:

https://createmagicatwork.net/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/create-magic-at-work

https://www.facebook.com/112951637095427

https://www.instagram.com/createmagicatwork

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnEm4h3fUgaq8qgvZpz6dGg

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Margie Buchanan-Smith: In the humanitarian sector, like many other public service areas in the West, you know we've become very tied up with compliance, with accountability measures, which tend to be accountability-you could call it upwards-to funders, and sometimes we lose that sense of accountability to those that we're there to serve, to those actually affected by the crisis, which in the humanitarian sector is the reason most of us have got into this work. So it's finding ways of really staying connected with what I call the human in humanity, really staying connected with our

purpose, with our values, with what matters to us.

Amy Lynn Durham: Hey, it's Amy. Welcome to Create Magic at Work, where we cast visions for a future of work where business decisions ripple outward to our teams, our communities, the planet, and humanity as a whole. If you're ready to edge walk instead of sleepwalk through your leadership, you're in the right place. So let's start making magic at work. Welcome back to Create Magic at Work. Today I'm joined by two extraordinary guests who are changing the way leaders show up in the world. First, we have Margie Buchanan Smith. Margie brings over 30 years of value-driven leadership in the

humanitarian aid sector, currently focusing on the crisis in Sudan. She's a well-published policy researcher, executive coach, senior research associate with ODI Global. Alongside her is Dr. Margaret Benefiel, founder and CEO of Executive Soul and former executive director of Shalaim Institute. Margaret is an author of seven books on leadership, including Soul at Work and Crisis Leadership. And over the last 14 years, her programs have transformed how 1000s of executives lead globally. They're here together today on Create Magic at Work because they co-facilitate a cohort called the Soul of

Leadership, and it's an 18-month program designed to help leaders integrate contemplative heart practices into their daily demands to avoid burnout and lead with purpose. Margie, Margaret, welcome to Create Magic at Work. Thank you so much. Thank you, Amy. Good to be here. Really glad you're here. I have to share the story of how we all met. So, Margie ordered an Edgewalker card deck from Dr. Judy Neal and I, and I just happened to reply. Well, first, actually, Margie, you reached out to me and said, "How do I get one over here in the UK? Because we do international shipping, where we generate

an invoice for you at that time. And I said, "Oh, let me send you one and generate an invoice. And then I said, "Wait a minute! How did you find out about this? How did you find out about the Edgewalker card? And and Margie, you replied and said, "Oh, we're using some of the book as an inspiration and things like that. And I was like, "Okay, we all have to get together and meet. So that's how we all ended up coming together and meeting with Dr. Judy Neal, who created the Edgewalker work, and then the amazing work that Margaret and Margie are doing in the world. Of course, I had to

bring them on Create Magic at work to share with all of you listening what's going on and the inspiration that we can feel from this great work that other people are doing. So, Margie, I'd like to start with you, and I would like to start with asking you to share with our listeners a little bit more about your work, especially the work that you're doing in Sudan, and then how it ties to your program with Margaret at Executive Soul, with the Soul of Leadership program. That was kind of a mouthful, but let's just start sharing a little bit about you and the work that you do.

Margie Buchanan-Smith: Yeah, thank you so much, Amy, and thanks so much for this opportunity. So I've been working in the humanitarian aid sector for, believe it or not, almost 40 years, and I've worked in many, many different countries in the world, many different continents. But the country that I started working in is Sudan, and it's the one that I keep coming back to, and that I care deeply and passionately about, and is tragically in the middle of a nationwide civil war. So, Sudan is no stranger to conflict. In many of the years that I've been working there, it's been in conflict

in some kind or another. This is undoubtedly the worst conflict and the worst crisis that. Sudan has experienced. I've played leadership roles in the humanitarian sector in many, many different ways. So I'm often been asked to lead multicultural teams. I've been in management positions, as you mentioned, been policy researcher. So have led policy research, and I think the challenge that we're all facing right now is just how enormous humanitarian needs are in the world-not just in Sudan, but in so many trouble spots in the world: Gaza, Ukraine, Democratic Republic of Congo, Myanmar, just to

mention a few, and our challenge right now is that the humanitarian needs are huge, and the resources to support people living in these crises are declining, and so the challenge for us as leaders is also immense. It's how do we nurture and maintain ourselves to be the best leaders that we can in terms of the work that we do, in terms of supporting ourselves, but also in terms of how we collaborate. And those of us working internationally are looking for ways to work as best we can with national humanitarian actors, and that's very much how I work in Sudan: is with national NGOs,

with Sudanese academics, with people that I've built up long trusted relationships with over long periods of time.

Amy Lynn Durham: Thanks for sharing That that feels big. It's like the only thing I'm I'm thinking as you're sharing that. Especially, I just love that you're bringing this perspective to create magic at work because we talk a lot about working in corporate, and there's a lot of other leadership perspectives that I think we all need to hear, and this one is a big one, Margaret. I'd like you to come in at this point and then talk about your work, and then the common thread between you and Margie.

Margaret Benefiel, Ph.D: Yes, thank you, Amy. So I started out in the field of theology and spirituality, and I taught for a number of years in theological education, and I taught courses helping people nurture their souls, and I found that while the courses were very helpful to them in their own personal spiritual development, when they got out to serving in churches or nonprofits or educational institutions or hospitals, wherever they ended up, they ran into systemic issues and organizational dysfunctionalities that they didn't know how to bring the spiritual resources to bear

on, and so I thought there must be ways to integrate what we know about spirituality with what's known about leadership and organizations, and that led me to take a leave of absence, explore more in those fields, and to my surprise, I found that many people in business, in healthcare, in nonprofits, in education were seeking a spiritual foundation, and so that led me to found Executive Soul and work with leaders and organizations. Then I went to Shalim and served there as executive director for over 10 years. I also serve and have served on a number of boards of nonprofits, and so I see the

people who are in the front lines serving people, people who are out there as activists, there are so many needs to address these days, and and so much injustice. And it's very easy for people to burn out. And so, my work with Executive Soul supports people who are out there trying to make a difference in the world.

Amy Lynn Durham: I love that you're mentioning the spirituality piece. There's a ton of data that is out there that we've talked about on Create Magic at Work before. That that's part of bringing your whole self to work. And if you're shutting that self away, then that could even lead to burnout or diminishing your capacity. Wondering from both of you, and Margie, we'll start with you. With all of this, you mentioned limiting resources or resources that are depleting to help in the humanitarian. Efforts, and then Margaret, you mentioned the executive soul company that you founded, and the soul

of leadership is to help nurture these types of individuals that are doing this type of work. What is one or two things that someone can do right now that if they feel exhausted or feel like I just can't do this anymore, what is one or two things? And Margie, we'll start with you that of hope that you can offer.

Margie Buchanan-Smith: Yeah, thanks, Amy. I mean, absolutely critical in the humanitarian work that I and others do is finding ways of staying connected with our purpose and values, and with our inner motivation. And in the humanitarian sector, like many other public service areas in the West, you know we've become very tied up with compliance, with accountability measures, which tend to be accountability-you could call it upwards-to funders, and sometimes we lose that sense of accountability to those that we're there to serve, to those actually affected by the crisis, which in the

humanitarian sector is the reason most of us have got into this work. It's finding ways of really staying connected with what I call the human in humanity, really staying connected with our purpose, with our values, with what matters to us, and in the busyness and the pressures of the work that we're doing. Sometimes we need help to retain that connection, and that's where, for me, as a participant on the program of Soul of Leadership, that really helped me reconnect with why I was doing this work, with what really mattered. I just wanted to say a couple of other things. Still on

this point of being values-driven, because much of the humanitarian sector is very secular, but above all, it's values-driven. And I did some research some years ago, looking at basically at models of excellence in value-driven humanitarian leadership, and what we found was just how significant that commitment and passion is when people feel their work is aligned with their values. And there's something about being very open and honest about how much we care. Sometimes using that word "love, a word we don't use enough in the sector, but it comes back to really, really connecting with that.

But then the other thing I wanted to mention is finding ways of replenishing ourselves. You know, this humanitarian work can be extremely demanding. I've personally faced periods of burnout in my past, and if we engage with those periods of burnout, they can also be a time of growth. We've burned out for a reason, and if we can pause long enough to understand what that reason was and how we should nurture and replenish and resource ourselves, then the chances are that we can reengage better equipped, better resourced, and an awful lot of that is drawing on our inner resources. So again,

just to mention, having been a participant on Soul of Leadership, that's really that gave me tremendous inner strength. I joined Soul of Leadership as a participant when I would describe myself as soul weary. You feel you kind of dragging yourself from day to day, from one piece of work to the next. Yeah, being in that kind of very nourishing environment was immensely helpful, and as a result, I now commit to to being on a retreat at least once a year, in order to make sure that I am nurturing, replenishing, and resourcing myself.

Amy Lynn Durham: Love that. I want to highlight something that you shared about focusing on compliance and losing sight of the end goal. I just think that's really important because the thought came to me. I'm curious about that in the spiritual intelligence teachings from the SQ21. That feels to me like that could be an ego trap, where we're not focusing on higher self or higher purpose, and we forget the act. Actual problem we're trying to solve, or the end result we're wanting to achieve, or the ripple effect of good we're trying to create in the world-that quantum leader. And when you

talked about that, I was like, "What a great reminder for all of us listening! If we're working in a company or a nonprofit or trying to do good, no matter what business we're running. Great reminder to pause and say, "What are we getting caught up in that is taking our attention away from what we're truly trying to achieve here? And that, to me, it almost is like getting caught up in. I'm just using this as one example because you brought it up. The comp, you know, getting too much focused on the compliance instead of the human result. It reminds me, for some reason, of an ego trap, a

distraction, almost similar, especially if you stay too focused on it, to why am I going to scrolling on social media? I don't know why, but it's reminding me of that, like just this distraction. So thank you for highlighting that, and thank you for being an example of somebody that is doing the work, but also replenishing yourself by stepping into programs like the Soul of leadership, and I know you help run it with Margaret. Thank you for living that example. And Margaret, I'd like to hear from you. Coming off what Margie said, what are some things with your work with Executive Soul that you

can share that can help? What's a micro step somebody can do in their day that feels chaotic, or if they're making a tough business decision or a tough organizational decision, share some insights that you see around that.

Margaret Benefiel, Ph.D: Yes, thank you, Amy. Well, I would agree with Marky. Get it back in touch with your purpose and also self care, replenishing yourself, and so some things you can do in the moment: breathe, look out the window at nature. Sometimes people carry something in their pocket that reminds them of being out in the woods or being at the ocean. Sometimes if they can reach in and touch that, it reminds them of connection to their larger purpose, to the whole of creation. Whatever nurtures you deeply, whatever nurtures your soul, find ways to connect with that in brief moments

here and there, and that can help you with a tough decision. You know, pay attention to bodily sensations. What is your heart telling you? What is your gut telling you? Are you noticing tension in your shoulders when you think about going this direction, whereas you feel more relaxed when you think about going this direction. I would say another thing someone could do is is sign up for one of our taster sessions, where Margie and I give a free two hour workshop that give people an opportunity to get in touch more deeply with their souls and with what really matters to them, and that can

help really reset your compass and get you regrounded, so that you're able to lead from a place that is deeper and that's in alignment with who you really are.

Amy Lynn Durham: Thank you. One thing that struck me about your Soul of Leadership program is that it's 18 months long. For some reason, that feels peaceful to me. And and we're in a world where things are quicker. It's a 30-minute webinar. It's a 32nd TikTok clip. It's a this. It's a that. And you would think that if somebody looks at 18 months, they're like, "Oh gosh, I just want a quick fix. I love that this is 18 months long and that it's supporting somebody for this long. Like, there's just something about it that jumps off the page to me that feels peaceful, supportive. Can you

tell us about the leaders that step into this support system that have this for 18 months throughout their lives? Who are they? What do they come for? What do they get out of it? I'm just curious, what kind of leaders are stepping into this?

Margaret Benefiel, Ph.D: I think you know, Amy, that Marky and I offer this program in the UK, and then I offer co-leaders in other parts of the world as well. So I offer it with different co-leaders in the US, and then also. In Korea and also in South Africa, and it has been offered in the Netherlands, and so there are some differences in the different locations. I would say we pretty consistently get people who are from nonprofits or charities, people who are in healthcare, people who are in education, people who are from the humanitarian sector. We get some people from business.

We get people who are leaders of spiritual communities, like pastors and others who lead spiritual communities. So we get quite a range

Amy Lynn Durham: when they step into work like this. Is there something in particular that they're wanting to resource, Margie?

Margie Buchanan-Smith: Yeah, I was just going to give some examples, maybe, which may be helpful to kind of just give some idea of of different things that people have got out of it. So I gave my own example of being quite soul weary and remotivating myself and using it as a way of replenishing. We've also had people join the program, and you know they kind of there's been a dissonance in their lives, maybe their values and motivation don't quite align with the organizations that they work with, whether that's private sector or in the not-for-profit or humanitarian sectors. And so we've had

people who've maybe worked through that, and I can actually think of examples of participants who've decided to leave their organization to find another that better aligns with their values, even have chosen to to change direction. We've had some people who've used the program as a way of kind of working out where they are on their life journey, finding a way to move into a new phase of engagement. We've had some people who've used it as a way of entering into a phase of what I would call eldership, perhaps by no longer working as as paid consultants and employees, but perhaps joining boards,

playing more kind of mentoring roles. So that's also been very wonderful to see. So those are just a few examples. Yeah, a few examples.

Amy Lynn Durham: Thank you. I'm thinking if you were to tell us one hope or one thing that you wish for all of the leaders that are doing this work, what would that hope or wish be, Margaret?

Margaret Benefiel, Ph.D: My hope is that they can get in touch with their authentic selves and live from that place and feel like they're in a place where they can make a difference in the world, in alignment with who they really are.

Amy Lynn Durham: Thank you. What about you, Margie?

Margie Buchanan-Smith: I would say my hope would be that leaders have the space, and often it's a few minutes. It doesn't have to be a lot of space to really cultivate that inner sense of leadership, I think that's where we find the right balance between soul and ego. So it's kind of leading from the inside out, connecting to values, and my hope would also be finding communities that connect us with kindred spirits. So, at those darker and more difficult times, we've got other kindred spirits who can support us.

Amy Lynn Durham: That connecting quality-it's so nice once we start introducing people that are like-minded to each other, that are wanting to do good work in the world, and then it's like, oh, yeah, it's not that dark as long as we keep our focus on this and the connections that we have in that way. I'm going to ask you a classic Edge Walker coaching question before we pull a card from the Edgewalker deck for everyone listening because that's how we got connected. The Edgewalker, one of the skills in the Edgewalker profile is sensing the future, and one of the questions that Dr. Judy

Neal loves to ask, and that has been adopted through with the Edgewalker facilitators, is what can you sense but not yet see? Margie, you mentioned some people feel like we're in dark times. I'm wondering from you, and we'll go. Then we'll go to you, Margaret. Margie, what can you sense but not yet see?

Margie Buchanan-Smith: I have to say something about the risk taking as well because we've talked about compliance here, and compliance to me is the antithesis for risk taking. It's we try to tie everything down because it all feels too scary and risky, and it's realizing we we need to ease up and we need to let go, and we need to be prepared to take risks, we absolutely do, and it's not reckless risk taking. It's it's thoughtful, carefully judged risks. But on the being divinely guided, it just so resonates for me around the need to take time out, and as I mentioned, it could be an

annual retreat, but it could be those practices in our day, sitting quietly, meditating, seeking that guidance, particularly at the times when we feel most overwhelmed. So, just how important and valuable that is, and in the busiest of days, it might be five minutes, and yet it's amazing what can come to us in five minutes.

Amy Lynn Durham: It is, and I will add to what you just said, Margie, and then the expand beyond my boundaries. What came up for me was who wrote these rules, who made these roles, and why do we have to follow them? And that is the question that I want every leader when they step into, I would say, you know, from the number two role to the number one role, or into a leadership role where you are making decisions. Who made these roles? What are they about? What are they doing? And why do we have to follow them? And what is the end result that they're bringing us? Because we get stuck on that

hamster wheel of, and I do feel like it's an ego trap that changes our attention away from what we're truly trying to accomplish. What a great conversation, Margie Margaret! Thank you so much for being a guest on Create Magic at Work and for sharing with everybody about your work and the Soul of Leadership program, we will have a link to that program in the description of the episode. So if anyone is interested, please feel free to check that out. And Margaret, where else can they go to learn about the program?

Margaret Benefiel, Ph.D: They can go to executivesoul.com.

Amy Lynn Durham: executivesoul.com. Awesome! If you are listening to this and you are like, "Wow, this sounds amazing! I need 18 months of support. Somebody walking alongside me. Check out executivesoul.com, and thank you so much for sharing some magic with everyone today, Margie and Margaret.

Margaret Benefiel, Ph.D: Thank you, Amy.

Margie Buchanan-Smith: Thank you so much, Amy. What an honor to be on the on this podcast. Thank you.

Amy Lynn Durham: Thank you.