Join state representatives Ellen Pogemiller and Ellyn Hefner for their inaugural podcast episode of 'Between Two Ellens.' This episode features Andy Moore from Let's Fix This, discussing the complexities of state questions, the initiative petition process, and the impact of recent legislative changes on Oklahoma politics. Learn about the intricacies of Medicaid expansion, the challenges of signature collection, and the push for open primaries. This engaging conversation aims to educate and involve the community in political processes that shape their everyday lives.

We are excited to kick off our first

podcast for between two Ellens.

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I am Ellen Pommel, state

Rep for House District 88.

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Welcome.

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My name is Ellyn Hefner, a

state rep for House District 87.

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And, um, we've put together between

two Ellens with really the goal of

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trying to bring issues, um, topics that

we see at the capitol, people that we

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talk to throughout our own districts,

throughout the state to try to bring

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that, um, to the community at large.

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You always talk about Ellen,

that it's about policy too.

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It's about policy and the details, how

it affects, uh, at the street level, uh,

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sometimes getting up in that, that big

building, which is a beautiful building.

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But we talk about all the high level

and the effects on, um, Oklahomans is

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something that I like to talk about

and you, so especially with your past

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and uh, what you've done in the States.

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So I'm looking forward to our first guest.

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Yes, me too.

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Um, today we.

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Are joined by, um, Andy Moore

from Let's Fix This, and so

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first, Andy, if you wanna.

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Tell us just like a little bit about you.

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Sure.

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Thanks Alan.

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It's great to be here.

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Super honored to be your first guest.

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Uh, let's fix This was started in

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budget crisis, um, that we were facing.

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I have not, I was not in politics.

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I worked in public health.

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Um, in mental health.

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I'm a licensed counselor, and,

but saw a clear need, like it was

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starting to really impact people's.

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Everyday lives.

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Um, people who didn't pay

attention to politics.

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And uh, so I created it as a, as a,

I made a Facebook event to get people

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involved, um, really to take them to the

capitol and build relationships with our

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elected officials, which is something

we all know we probably should do.

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We should make phone calls and

write letters, and we never do.

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Uh, but it was right down the street.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, for those of us who

live in Oklahoma City.

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And, um, so try to do it as a

like, low barrier way of just like,

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just come, we'll do it as a group.

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Um, I had no idea it would take off.

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Um, it turns out Oklahomans

really do care about the state

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and they want to be involved.

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They want to have a voice that matters

and not everyone's sure where to start.

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So we try to create opportunities for

people to be more engaged with, um,

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politics, to build those relationships.

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And then we've learned there's a lot

of education that we need to do in our

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state around, um, how politics works,

how government works, how elections work.

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Uh, and so over the next few years,

started doing a kind of a deep dive into.

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How did we get here?

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What are the, what are the

decisions or the policies?

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I love a deep dive.

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Yeah.

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That led to like the

problems that we see, right?

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We, you know, governor Statt talks

about being a top 10 state and we know

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that we're bottom 10 in so many things.

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We're top 10 in bad things,

bottom 10 in good things.

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And when you drill down to

it, the system, the structure.

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By which people get elected, right close

primaries, gerrymandered districts,

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uh, huge influx of money in politics.

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We see these as like corruptive

influences on good government and so.

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Since then, we've kind of

been fighting to change that.

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Yeah, I love that.

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And so we are so glad that you are here.

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Um, talking about, um, really

state questions between two Ellens.

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And so we know that there are several

ways that, um, initiatives can get to

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the ballot and we really wanna focus on.

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How, um, individuals can have a ballot

initiative that is from the people and

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that moves from signatures to questions.

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Yeah.

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And so hoping you can kind of walk

us through that process and then

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changes that have kind of occurred.

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Yeah.

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Since last year.

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Yeah, for sure.

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I mean, the state question process, right?

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The initiative petition process.

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It is not unique to Oklahoma, but

we were the first state to include

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it in our state constitution.

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About half of the states, about

26 states have some form of an

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initiative petition process.

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Ours is arguably the most onerous, um,

as one might imagine for our state.

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And so, uh, in, in fact, uh, several

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opportunity to, to lead a state question

or a ballot initiative campaign.

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Um, to trying to end gerrymandering.

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Um, learned a lot more about the

process that I had read about, but

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experiencing was very different.

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And as you, as you said, Alan, there have

been some recent changes, um, that really

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make a negative impact on, on the process.

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So currently, I mean, not currently,

let's just step back, you know, if

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someone wants to get something on

the ballot, um, you know, what are,

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what's their initial process look like?

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Yeah.

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So there are.

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We, we talk about state questions,

there's like three types, right?

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There's, um, a constitutional amendment.

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There is a, a statutory amendment or

a, a regular law amendment, uh, or

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just a regular law, statutory change.

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And there's also like a, a veto

referendum, which is a way to,

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for the voters to like veto a

bill that the legislature passed.

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That's kind of a special case,

so I'm gonna set that aside.

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Mm-hmm.

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The other two are the main ones, right?

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So things, a state question

arrives on your ballot.

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Either because it was initiated

by voters, by citizens, or it was

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referred there by the legislature.

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So in the case of a constitutional

amendment, the legislature cannot amend

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the state constitution on your own.

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I'm gonna say yours

'cause your legislators.

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Mm-hmm.

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But you can't do it on your own.

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It has to go through a vote of

the people, which I think is good.

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Mm-hmm.

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Like there's a, there's a step there

of like, this is our constitution.

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We should have a say in it.

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Um, but citizens can also initiate that.

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And we can also initiate,

um, regular legislation.

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Um, and, um, you know, the process

starts with an idea, right?

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Of like, how, what is it you wanna change?

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Does that change?

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Like, could it be a statutory,

a regular law in many cases,

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especially for big things?

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Um, it's probably in

our state constitution.

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Mm-hmm.

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Oklahoma has a very long, um,

uh, detailed state constitution.

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There's a lot of stuff in there that

probably shouldn't be, but um, so

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that's why we have to amend it as we go.

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Um, in general, I'll, I'll kinda

just give you like the Yeah.

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Top line.

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Yeah.

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So in general, the steps are, you

know, write the policy, file the

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policy, survive legal challenges.

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Mm-hmm.

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Collect signatures, uh, and then, you

know, educate and persuade voters until

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you win, uh, or when it's on the ballot.

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So eventually we get to vote on it.

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That's the.

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That sounds like a really rosy overview.

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It is much more nuanced and

difficult as we go along.

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Well, you brought up legal challenges,

so there's something currently that

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maybe, um, we could talk about, but,

um, senate bill, uh, 10 27, but I'd

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like to go back and just talk about

something that was put on, um, a

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ballot that, um, that Oklahoman's

got a vote for and that we have now.

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So if you could describe one of

those, uh, those things that were.

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That worked.

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And then it also describes something

that the amount of maybe questions

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that do get on the bill, that get on

the ballot and then don't get passed.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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So I, I said earlier, it's

a really difficult process.

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Um, when it comes to

signature collection alone.

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Oklahoma has one of the highest

thresholds, like the highest number

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of signatures required of any

state, but the shortest timeframe.

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So we'll only have 90 days

to collect signatures.

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We need.

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In general terms, like you're gonna need

200 to 250,000 signatures at a minimum.

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Mm-hmm.

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When you break that down, like

the, I mean, think right now, the

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actual number is about 180,000 for

a constitutional change, well, that

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comes down to 2000 signatures a day,

every day of that 90 day period.

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And just the idea, like the logistics

of how do I get volunteers, um, or

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even how do I, you know, pay people

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Um, that, that's part of the reason

that like many campaigns don't

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ever make it to the ballot, right?

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Aside from the legal

hurdles and everything else.

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Um, it is a very high bar.

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It's overwhelming.

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It is.

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Most states allow at least six months.

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Some allow like a rolling

12 month period, 90.

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Uh, and so we have one of this, I

was on a call yesterday with some

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folks in Missouri, um, who are

collecting signatures to try to

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change their initiative process.

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And they're like, well,

we've got six months.

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And then they all kind of said, sorry,

Andy, Oklahoma is, uh, is a hard time.

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Good luck with that 90.

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That's right.

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Uh, we would love to see that changed.

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Um.

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The, so a good example of one that has

been successful in recent years, uh,

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was in 2020, uh, Medicaid expansion.

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Um, and this is a good

example for lots of reasons.

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First of all, it wasn't just a

hair-brained idea that a few, you

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know, voters had one day, it was a

long term, like a decade long effort.

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So the Affordable Care Act passed,

you know, about 10 years before, uh,

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back during the Obama administration.

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And then states were kind of slowly

expanding Medicaid one by one.

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There was a club at the beginning and

then it was kind of trickled in, which

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is how a lot of stuff happens nationally.

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Oklahoma's one of the last states

to expand Medicaid, but it was

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discussed in the legislature.

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Um, several times.

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There were proposals put out by agency

directors, by the governor, or not

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by the governor, but agency heads.

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And eventually the legislature passed

Medicaid expansion or a version of it.

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And the governor, ve

Governor Stid vetoed it.

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And it was only after that that, you

know, folks on the ground said, okay,

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it's clear that the legislature is uh,

or the governor, someone is unwilling

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to pass this, but the people demand it,

so we're gonna have to do it on our own.

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Uh, and so they filed a policy,

um, it's pretty straightforward.

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They, you know, survived

all the legal hurdles.

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There's always challenges of like

whether or not this is constitutional

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and whether or not the summary paragraph

is accurate, these little hurdles.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, they got through that and

then collected a record number of

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signatures over 300,000 signatures.

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Wow.

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From every county.

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Um, all, all 77.

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All 77 county.

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Right.

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They collected signatures from

Beaver and Cimarron County way

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on the panhandle, um, to the, you

know, major metros and all that.

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Um, and then, uh, it was on the

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which was a interesting election.

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'cause it was in the middle of,

it was, um, just before COVID.

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Mm-hmm.

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No, it was during COVID, no.

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Was during COVID.

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It was during COVID, during the

flatten the curve phase of COVID.

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Yeah.

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Um, so it was a unexpected

election, so lots of mail

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ballots, lots of challenges there.

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And, uh, and it won narrowly, but it won.

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And is, it is now part of our state

constitution is that Oklahoma's Medicaid

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laws were changed to ensure that folks

that, um, qualify based on income or

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other status, um, have access to, to

Medicaid and um, really a big win.

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Mm-hmm.

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I think for the people of Oklahoma.

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Absolutely.

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So over the last two years, we

have passed at the legislature, um,

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legislation that has made it even more

difficult than you were describing.

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So ensuring that there's longer challenge

periods and that the collection,

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um, period is while it's 90 days,

there's more requirements on where

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you can collect those signatures.

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So can you walk us through the impact

of Senate Bill 10 27, which is still in.

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Legal window.

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Yeah.

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But if it's approved, this

is what it would look like.

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Yeah.

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So you're exactly right.

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So, uh, last year, year before last,

there was a bill that passed that,

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um, changes the, the challenge period.

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So there's, in the, in the process there

are two windows where anybody opposition,

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like anybody could, could challenge.

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Some element of the initiative,

uh, that's underway.

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So typically it's at the beginning,

right after you file, there's like a,

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there was a 10 day challenge period.

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So in the next, the, the state

puts out notice and you had 10

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days to file a legal challenge.

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Folks felt like that

was a little too short.

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Um, and maybe I could agree, like mm-hmm.

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It didn't ever seem to be a problem.

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There were still challenges

filed every time.

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Um, but if you happen to not

know about it, you know, you

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might miss the, the announcement.

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And so rather than expand it to like

two weeks or even a month, uh, the

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legislature expanded it to 90 days.

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So three months of time, which

for the campaign means you're

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just kind of sitting around.

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Mm-hmm.

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Waiting to see if someone's gonna file a

challenge, knowing it's probably coming.

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And those always get filed

on the last day, so, yeah.

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Right.

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Uh, but it's really tough for a campaign

because you don't even know if you.

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You can start collecting signatures yet.

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Yeah.

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So you're really just gonna,

when do I get workforce?

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Yeah.

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When you Right.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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You can't hire anybody if you

don't know what the next thing is.

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Uh, and so they expanded not just that

challenge period, but there's one towards

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the end after signature collection,

they expanded that to 90 days as well.

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So together, that's 180 days of Yeah.

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Essentially waiting around

time for the campaign.

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Which is ironic 'cause the

campaign only has 90 days.

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Right.

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Like signatures and so, um, but

those three things together.

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Right.

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Well, that's.

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Uh, nine months worth of time just around

challenges and collecting signatures.

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So now it's taking more than a

year before a campaign can even

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qualify for the ballot, which

makes for a really long process.

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Mm-hmm.

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When other states, sometimes it's,

you know, they can file stuff in

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June of an election year and have

it on the ballot in November.

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Um, that is not the case in Oklahoma.

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We really have to plan and then fundraise,

you know, to, how do you hire staff?

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How do you hire organizers or

keep volunteers engaged mm-hmm.

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For, you know, more

than 12, 15, 18 months.

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That's a long time.

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And then a little bit about question.

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Oh, state question, sorry.

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Yes.

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Senate bill, uh, senate bill,

the, um, collection of Yeah.

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Um, people's.

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Signatures.

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Yeah.

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So this year in 2025, the

legislature passed senate bill in 27.

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Mm-hmm.

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That made a bunch of

changes to the process.

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Um, it changes, uh, limitations around who

can collect signatures that you have to

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wear name tags, and if you're paid, you

have to know who you're being paid by.

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Um, and like there's limitations

on who can fund state questions.

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It says no out of state entities can

fund state questions, uh, which I

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think invites opportunity for, um.

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You know, money to just be

routed through intermediaries.

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There's like ways of, you know,

there's loopholes to all that stuff.

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Um, the signature collection

process itself was, there was a

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change to the form a few years ago.

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Um, and there's only been one campaign

that's gone through it so far.

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Um, where the form is now

has to be scannable by a

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computer so they can read it.

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Um, and in the past, a campaign.

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When they were cleared for signature

collection, we just go out and

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collect signatures everywhere, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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You're doing a 2000 a day or more?

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Yeah.

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You're just out wherever you can

and you don't get to pick when that.

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Frame it.

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So like it might be in the middle of

winter when no one's out and about.

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So you're trying to go to parking

lots and go to churches and just

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the state fair would be a good one.

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Right now, the state fair would be huge.

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Mm-hmm.

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For several reasons.

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One, 'cause you get people

from all 77 counties mm-hmm.

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Who come to the fair.

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That's right.

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Uh, so this is, and that brings up

the really, I think, contentious

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and arguably unconstitutional

element of this bill is that.

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The bill puts a cap on the

number of signatures that can be

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collected from any one county.

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So it's ca it, um, the formula like varies

based on the population of the county.

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Um, but it comes out to like around 11

point a half percent of it's 11 point

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a half percent of the turnout in the

most recent gubernatorial election.

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So you need a degree in math to

start figure this out, right?

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Um, and you know, some data to go pull on.

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But that means that for less populated

counties like Cimarron County mm-hmm.

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Or Beaver, some of those ones like

out in western Oklahoma, um, several

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of those are capped that only 74 or

85 people from that county would be

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allowed to even sign the petition.

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Wow.

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Anything more than that

would ex would exceed Right.

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The cap and is unnecessary.

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And the same thing in the metros, uh,

Oklahoma City and Tulsa, you have a cap.

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It's obviously a higher number,

but the percentage is lower.

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Um, and so it, the goal by the authors

of the bill said, well, we want to

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force campaigns, require campaigns

to not just go to the metro areas.

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Well, that's never been the case.

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Mm-hmm.

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Any campaign worth itself is

going to go to as many counties.

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Mm-hmm.

359

'cause you need votes from every county.

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That's right.

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These are not.

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Urban issues or rural issues.

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Um, also people may move

around or visit, right?

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Like I've been to a monster truck rally

at the fairgrounds here and sat next

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to some folks who drove in a couple

of hours from, um, from a rural area.

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And it's like people do

come to the cities often.

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Mm-hmm.

368

And so you still have to like over

index on outreach in the metro areas,

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especially during football season, state

fair season, all that kind of stuff.

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Um.

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But the effect then is that it almost,

um, encourages campaigns to strategize

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around more populous counties or events.

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And it also just like limits who can sign.

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So previously, if, you know, if we

wanted to do a state question to say

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that chicken fried steak is the official,

I know it's part of the official

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meal, but you know what I'm saying,

um, that we wanna make something like

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that, that everyone's on board with.

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Right.

379

If we want a resolution that Oklahoma's

better than Texas or whatever mm-hmm.

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We can do something.

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And if a million people wanted to sign

it, they could, uh, and now they can't.

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Mm-hmm.

383

They can't.

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And so if you are, you know, voter

number 86 in that county that

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only allows 85, you're outta luck.

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Uh, and that I think really speaks to the

heart of like, uh, you know, canceling

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voters' opinions, which is not at all

what, that's not the representative

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democracy that I would like to live in.

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My, uh, we spoke, uh, about, uh, a friend

that, uh, you and I both have Nancy Ward,

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who is, uh, a disability self-advocate.

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She's, uh, she was great, helped

with a DA to include people

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with id, um, with, uh, IDD.

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Um, but she would always tell me

that any restrictions that we put on

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voting or signature collection or any

kind of rules that we have, or laws

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that are placed that are restrictive.

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That, uh, they affect

people with disabilities.

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So we've, because of, um, you know, not

having a bunch of services in our rural

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areas for people with disabilities,

especially specialty doctors, they've

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had to move towards more urban areas

to get the caregiving and help, and so.

400

Their vote, their signature, uh, would

be one of those that would be kicked,

401

that would be that 86th one or whatever.

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Or they just wouldn't be able to

participate, especially at such a quick

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time, you know, to uh, be able to, uh,

tra transportation, to get places to go

404

out and to be that 90, 90 day window.

405

So any restrictions, um.

406

So what, what are your thoughts on that?

407

And if that is something that

disenfranchises that community, I

408

mean, could that be another thing that,

uh, could go against that great law?

409

A DA?

410

Yeah, a hundred percent.

411

Love Nancy.

412

She is a tremendous advocate.

413

I learn stuff from her every conversation

I have, international advocate, I

414

should say, always wants me remind that.

415

That's right.

416

Um, but yeah, I, you know, I

have long said that there's

417

really two sides of this.

418

Either you want everybody

to vote or you don't.

419

Mm-hmm.

420

And I, I used to believe, I still

want to believe that we want

421

everybody, every eligible voter to

vote when signatures are not votes.

422

Mm-hmm.

423

No, but it's still an expression of

your political preference, right?

424

That's right.

425

We, if we want everyone to have the equal

opportunity to sign a petition to show

426

their support, we should make it easier.

427

I think too often what we see

happening is, you know, members of the

428

legislature, um, trying to restrict.

429

Voting restrict signature

collection, like make things harder.

430

And they do it in the name of security,

but we've never had an issue with that.

431

Um, voting like voter

fraud is not a thing.

432

We have extremely secure

elections in Oklahoma.

433

We have an extremely secure

signature collection process.

434

We could make it a lot easier

for more people to sign it.

435

We could do it online.

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There's ways to like validate ID

to make sure they're a registered

437

voter, do all those things.

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And also expand access.

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That would save time and save

money and give more people the

440

opportunity to express themselves.

441

Why don't we do that?

442

So one of the other things we talked

about with, um, you go through that

443

whole process and then the governor gets

to decide when it goes on the ballot.

444

Mm-hmm.

445

Yeah.

446

So for example, the minimum wage,

um, bill, uh, or state question.

447

Mm-hmm.

448

I can't even remember when all of the.

449

The ballot, like all the

signatures were collected.

450

That was a long, that was last summer.

451

Yeah.

452

So, yeah, so right now

there's state question 8 32.

453

Mm-hmm.

454

Will be on your ballot in June of 2026.

455

And we know that because in 2024,

they collected signatures, turned them

456

in qualified, and the governor said,

okay, we'll put on the ballot back, you

457

know, like a year and a half from now.

458

The way the law is currently written is

that, um, once it qualifies a measure.

459

Is assumed to be on the next, I think

it says the next regular ballot.

460

Mm-hmm.

461

Which is weird old language

that needs to be updated, but

462

it says the next regular ballot.

463

And the courts have always interpreted

that as saying that means the next

464

statewide general election, which only

happens every two years in November.

465

Right.

466

So it's either a presidential election

or the midterm election, but it is up to

467

the governor to put it on another ballot

of an election that's already scheduled,

468

or he can call a special election.

469

In a weird month, right?

470

He can call and be like, oh, we're

gonna vote on that in February.

471

Surprise.

472

Mm-hmm.

473

Um, and that is purely like

a political move, right?

474

Do they, the governor puts it

on ballots that they think, or

475

their party thinks is going to be

advantageous for their position on it.

476

Like if they support it, they'll

put it on the easiest ballot to win.

477

And if they don't, they'll put it on

a really hard or a weird month ballot.

478

Mm-hmm.

479

Um, they could put it in December

when no one's thinking about voting.

480

Most years.

481

And so the governor, by putting

it off, he moved minimum wage to

482

a primary ballot, you know, years

from the time that it happened.

483

And that means you're gonna

have a primary electorate,

484

which seems to be fewer people.

485

They tend to be more partisan.

486

And because it's Oklahoma, um, it ends

up being more Republican and, and not

487

as many Democrats and, and certainly not

independents who were, you know, blocked

488

out of, like Republican closed primaries.

489

And so it skews who's

even eligible mm-hmm.

490

To show up.

491

Yeah.

492

Uh, or not, who wasn't it?

493

Skews who is likely to show up.

494

Mm-hmm.

495

Anyone would be eligible.

496

Right.

497

You could turn out for this if it's

on the ballot, but, uh, we kind of,

498

you know, people aren't as motivated

for one thing as they might be for

499

a whole ballot of people in things.

500

So, yeah.

501

Um, again.

502

Something else we should change.

503

So if there was, so it's gonna be

on a primary the in June, and let's

504

say that in a district that does not

have a Democratic primary, they'll

505

have a separate ballot if they wanna

show up just for the state question.

506

Yeah.

507

So, and that's comes to the

way ballots are constructed.

508

Mm-hmm.

509

They usually the state questions

appear on their own page.

510

Yeah.

511

Um, for those kind of elections.

512

'cause you're gonna have

a bunch of other ballots.

513

Yeah.

514

I mean, many of us have

showed up to vote and you get.

515

One or two, maybe there's a

municipal one and a state one.

516

Mm-hmm.

517

Um, but it'll have all the ballot language

on there and, and every eligible voter

518

would be, will be able to vote on that.

519

So the next state question that, um,

just last week, um, we have state

520

question 8 36, which is open primaries.

521

Mm-hmm.

522

And it got the green light, I

think from the Supreme Court.

523

Mm-hmm.

524

Saying that you can move on.

525

You wanna tell us a little bit

about that ballot initiative?

526

Sure.

527

Yeah.

528

So this has been kind of in

flight for several months.

529

Um, this has been a topic, again,

it's been discussed for years.

530

I think I've been.

531

Preaching about the value of

532

Um, and I know in Oklahoma people

have been talking about it.

533

In fact, um, current Oklahoma

City Mayor David Holt, when he was

534

in the state senate, uh, 10 plus

years ago, he ran a bill to open

535

primaries that didn't go anywhere.

536

Um, but as a Republican to say, you

know, Hey, we should really do this.

537

I mean, he's still a big

advocate for the measure.

538

Um, but it's funny that it's

been discussed inside the capitol

539

and outside for a long time.

540

And I think voters are starting

to recognize that, like, let's

541

face, like every voter should vote.

542

Mm-hmm.

543

Everyone should have an

equal opportunity to vote.

544

Uh, so the measure itself, um, would

make a, a slight tweak to our county

545

state and, um, like legislative and

statewide races, um, it would not

546

affect the race for president, but

it wouldn't do Congress, uh, and US

547

Senates, all of those partisan races.

548

It would just make them run similar,

the same way to how we do city

549

elections, municipal elections, where.

550

There is a primary, and every candidate

for that office is on the ballot with

551

their, with their party affiliation.

552

Mm-hmm.

553

So, you know, who's a Republican,

who's a democrat, who's an independent,

554

who's a libertarian, and, but as a

voter, regardless of the voter's party

555

affiliation or UNA affiliation, um, you

would have a chance to pick from that

556

full list of candidates who your preferred

candidate is, and then the top two vote

557

getters would go on to the general.

558

If there's only two people that file,

well, there's no need for a primary.

559

That's who's on the general ballot.

560

But in most every case, it allows

more voters the opportunity to

561

fully express their preference.

562

And the reason for this, I kind of

alluded to earlier, is that Oklahoma

563

is, um, a semi closed primary state.

564

I think by default we're a closed

primary state, which means only, uh,

565

that it's up to the parties to allow.

566

For them to say like, who can

vote in the party primaries?

567

Mm-hmm.

568

So the way it is right now

is that the Democratic Party

569

allows independents to vote.

570

So Democrats and Independents can

vote in the Democratic primaries,

571

but that's a party decision.

572

Um, the Libertarian party and the

Republican party have long said, no.

573

Only members of our party can vote.

574

Um, and there's rarely

a libertarian primary.

575

Mm-hmm.

576

There's only about, I think, 40,000

members of the party statewide, and they

577

usually don't run against each other.

578

Um, but it happened I think

last year in some race.

579

Uh, and so it certainly can, but um,

Ellen, as you said, in a lot of districts

580

where it may be a pretty heavy Republican,

um, presence, if it's only candidates

581

from that party who file, then the other

half of the electorate is blocked out.

582

And this is important in Oklahoma for a

lot of reasons, not the least of which

583

is that last year half of the legislature

was elected on filing day by default.

584

Mm-hmm.

585

Because they were unopposed.

586

Mm-hmm.

587

They put their name down and

said, I'm filing for this office,

588

and no one ran against them.

589

And so they won by default.

590

Which again, that's not an election.

591

That's as a reminder to all of us.

592

Like sometimes it's just

showing up is all it takes.

593

Yeah.

594

Um, and then, um, so that was about

half people just won by default.

595

And then another quarter of the

legislature was elected on primary day.

596

Mm-hmm.

597

In closed primaries, uh, in,

in races that were in theory

598

only competitive among them.

599

Uh, these are publicly funded elections.

600

Our tax dollars pay for this.

601

We believe that every voter

should have the right to vote.

602

Hmm.

603

That's some of the arguments that

I've heard on, on both sides.

604

One is that, um, you know, well,

um, if they wanna have a closed

605

primary, they, their party should

come up and, and pay for it.

606

Um, and, um, the, and the.

607

Because, you know, our dollars go,

we should hopefully get everyone

608

involved if they, if they can.

609

But then on the other side

is I don't want anyone voting

610

outside our party for someone.

611

And, and that is sort of how we, we've

kind of shifted in the way what we think.

612

I, I like it.

613

Hopefully if I'm.

614

You know, a, a good representative of

my district that they'll vote for me.

615

Um, instead of just saying,

um, I can never vote for a,

616

a Democrat or a Republican.

617

My neighbor who I love, you know,

longtime Republican, you know, she said.

618

Um, she had my sign in her yard, but

she didn't vote for me because she

619

said she's never voted for a Democrat.

620

And I thought, I have a lot of work

to do and, and we all do if we try

621

to show that the works that we do.

622

And so maybe that's how

we'll run better campaigns.

623

Mm-hmm.

624

That we'll be nicer to each other

maybe and it won't be so, um, so split.

625

Yeah.

626

What are your thoughts on that?

627

Yeah, I think you're exactly right.

628

And, and there are a number of states

that already have open primaries.

629

Um, California's had 'em for a long time.

630

Uh, and people point to California

as being a liberal state and it's,

631

I mean, it is like nationally,

but when you get down to the state

632

legislative level, it's pretty

competitive and pretty evenly balanced.

633

Um, there were more people who voted

for Trump in California than in

634

Texas, like in terms of raw numbers.

635

And so it is not a blue state.

636

It is because of some of

their statewide election.

637

'cause there's a slim majority statewide.

638

Um, but another state

that's really interesting.

639

Well, Louisiana has

basically had open primaries.

640

Mm-hmm.

641

They scheduled theirs differently.

642

So they call it a Cajun primary,

but it's essentially the same thing.

643

Um, Alaska has had open primaries for

a number of years, um, and there's

644

a really great documentary out, it's

on all the, it's on Netflix and app,

645

not Netflix, apple, and, uh, Amazon.

646

It's called Majority Rules.

647

Um, we'll be doing a screening of it

actually in Oklahoma City on October 2nd.

648

Mm-hmm.

649

At Rodeo Cinema.

650

If anyone is interested,

we're writing it down.

651

Yeah.

652

Yeah.

653

Put it on your calendars.

654

Mm-hmm.

655

Go to rodeo cinema.org.

656

Um, and, but it, it does what you

say, it, it changes the incentives

657

that politicians face and how

they campaign and how they govern.

658

Because you know, everyone will say,

well, I represent my whole district.

659

That's true.

660

You do.

661

But are you actually accountable

to your whole district?

662

Did your whole district get

a voice in electing you?

663

You know, uh, in 2022 there was a

statewide elected office, and I, I think

664

it was the insurance commissioner, um,

but it was elected in a closed primary.

665

So I, as an independent voter,

did not get to vote in that

666

you didn't either as Democrats.

667

Mm-hmm.

668

And that is.

669

A big issue and Republicans

would say, well, if you don't

670

like it, you should run.

671

Like, you don't want me to

be insurance commissioner.

672

I don't know squat about that.

673

Um, should somebody have run?

674

Sure.

675

Mm-hmm.

676

But they didn't.

677

That doesn't mean that I shouldn't get a

voice in to choose among those who did.

678

Mm-hmm.

679

And so I think those are the examples

that we have to point to, that you know,

680

a majority of, uh, veterans and members

of the military are independent voters.

681

Um, a growing number of young

voters, a majority of young

682

people under the age of 35.

683

Our independent voters, people are

frustrated with the two parties, but

684

they really want to have a say mm-hmm.

685

In the future of their

state and of their country.

686

But when, when private organizations,

political parties, block voters from

687

participating, then you incentivize people

running to the extremes of their party.

688

And that is by its very nature,

less representative of what the

689

majority consensus actually wants.

690

So one of the things we always wanna

talk about is just like how people

691

can get involved with state questions,

you know, so if this is an issue

692

that they care about, you know, what

would, what would they do to get

693

involved in one of those campaigns?

694

Well, I'm gonna go to the movie.

695

So, yeah, we're we all, I

everyone comes to the movie.

696

Yeah.

697

Uh, please do.

698

Um, and I think.

699

Um, I invited the campaign.

700

I don't work with the campaign.

701

Yeah.

702

I just, the thing that I

support as a, as a voter.

703

Um, but I invited them to come 'cause

I think people will be interested.

704

Mm-hmm.

705

And it makes sense to have a

chance to plug in with that.

706

Um, uh, otherwise you can just reach out.

707

I mean, if you google this stuff,

if you Google open primaries,

708

Oklahoma, you will find the website.

709

It's yes on eight 30 six.org

710

or.com.

711

Mm-hmm.

712

Or whatever.

713

It's, you can find it that way.

714

Same thing with minimum wage.

715

Right.

716

They've qualified for the

ballot, but now they've gotta

717

persuade everyone and educate.

718

'cause not everyone knows it's

gonna be on the ballot next year.

719

And so they've got a lot of education.

720

So this is a good chance for if

you believe that our minimum wage

721

should be raised over time to $15

an hour, you should get involved.

722

Um, you can reach out to them again,

Google, minimum Wage, Oklahoma, or

723

minimum wage campaign, Oklahoma, um,

I think it's called Yes, on 8 32.

724

And that's the way to do it.

725

Um, all of the state question

like information about campaigns

726

like the status are, is on the

Secretary of State's website.

727

There are some other state questions that

are in flight, as we say right now, um,

728

dealing with a range of other issues.

729

There's not a bunch, and many of

them may not qualify, but they're

730

out there and I check that website.

731

Um, if you go to sos.ok.gov

732

and then you click on the

executive legislative button, then

733

you can search state question.

734

It's on there.

735

It's hard to find, but it's

there if you know where to look.

736

Um, and then I think another great

way people can be involved is if

737

they're unsure, if they're wondering

if someone's working on something.

738

Do you care about animal welfare?

739

Do you care about, um, healthcare rights?

740

Do you care about abortion?

741

Do you care about.

742

Budget and tax policy.

743

Do you care about, uh, you know,

right to farm, right to work, what

744

all this kind of stuff, right?

745

Mm-hmm.

746

Do you care about reforming the

initiative petition process, right.

747

To make it better?

748

Um, they can contact their

elected officials who might

749

know, like of your constituents.

750

Uh, Ellen Bog Miller, I'm

one of your constituents.

751

Mm-hmm.

752

I reach out to you all the time

with questions to see if you know

753

someone working on something.

754

Um, that's a really effective way

and folks are always happy, and

755

you're welcome to email me as well.

756

Awesome.

757

Awesome.

758

Thank you.

759

Well, we are so glad that you

joined us on between our one

760

two, Ellens, our first one.

761

We, um, talked about having a fun

way to end our podcast each week.

762

And so we would love our listeners

to engage in this, send us questions,

763

but we'll start out with our guest.

764

Um, ask us a fun or interesting question

you would like to know about the Ellens.

765

Ooh, this is a good question.

766

Uh, I'm gonna try to refrain from any

contentious political issues, I think.

767

Thank you.

768

Um, uh, you guys both have kids.

769

Mm-hmm.

770

Um, serial is a thing.

771

Um, do you for, can I

ask a two part question?

772

Do you have a favorite cereal?

773

This is not sponsored by anybody, Uhhuh.

774

Um, but uh, do you have a, do

you have a favorite cereal and

775

more importantly is cereal?

776

An adequate or an

acceptable meal for dinner.

777

I'm a definite yes.

778

I am empty nesting right now, so cooking

a big dinner, although I love to cook.

779

Um, it's kind of nice and very

comforting to have a bowl of

780

cereal if oatmeal is considered a

cereal, which I do believe it is.

781

I think that's a nice

nighttime cozy for me.

782

Um, and I'm, I'm a basic corn flakes

kind of girl too, so it's a, I've never

783

considered having oatmeal for dinner.

784

This is mind blowing to me.

785

Yeah.

786

And I also would not call,

but I guess can be cereal.

787

It's a cereal, so it's definitely, um.

788

I am a no on breakfast for cereal,

um, or dinner using cereal.

789

Um, I like, well I grew up in a house

that didn't really have a lot of cereal.

790

Mm-hmm.

791

And so when I went to college and people

ate cereal all the time and drank the

792

milk afterwards, it really weirded me out.

793

So I am like, not into cereals,

but I do love like a Lucky Charms

794

or Cinnamon Toast Crunch kinda.

795

You know, ones I could eat at camp that

my parents wouldn't let me eat at home.

796

Right.

797

I mean, is a, the desserts

of cereal as a kid.

798

Apple Jack's.

799

Oh yeah.

800

I love that one too funny.

801

How about you?

802

Do you have a favorite cereal?

803

Uh, I'm real boring.

804

I really like Raisin brand, which is

like an old man choice my whole life.

805

Um, but I also, uh,

was never a big cereal.

806

I mean, we ate, it was a kid

growing up 'cause it was probably

807

easy and it was the eighties.

808

That's what everyone did.

809

Um, but I got to college and everyone

was eating all the time and I was

810

like, there are way better food groups.

811

So I really have probably eaten

cereal 10 times since I turned 20.

812

Yeah, no, I'm, I'm with you.

813

And, um, you know, so grateful

that you kicked us off.

814

Um, if people wanna learn more about

the podcast or what we've talked

815

about, we do have a website you

can visit between two ellens.com

816

and, um, we are grateful for

you listening to us today.

817

Thank you.

818

Thank you.