What if your job and your talents were immersed in grief? Meet Pastor Harvey Carpenter of Journey Christian Church in Apopka Florida (https://journeychristian.com/).  Harvey has a heart of empathy that has equipped him to walk alongside those in the grief. Having been called to do over fifteen hundred funerals in the last 12 years for people and families from all walks of faith, Harvey has a unique perspective and insights into the grief process. Join this candid conversation with Marshall and Steve and find the insights and takeaways from a pastors perspective.

We welcome your comments and questions! Send an email to hopethrugrief@gmail.com and please share our show with anyone you know that is struggling with loss and grief. You can find us on the internet to continue the conversation at the links below!

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Jordan Smelski Foundation: http://www.jordansmelskifoundation.org

Tune in for new episodes every Thursday morning wherever you listen to podcasts!

Marshall Adler and Steve Smelski, co-hosts of Hope Thru Grief are not medical, or mental health professionals, therefore we cannot and will not give any medical, or mental health advice. If you, or anyone you know needs medical or mental health treatment, please contact a medical or mental health professional immediately. The Suicide Prevention Lifeline number is 1-800-273-8255

Thank you

Marshall Adler

Steve Smelski

Hello everybody and welcome to today's episode of Hope Thru Grief.

I'm one of your cohost, Steve Smelski, and I'm here with my good

friend and cohost Marshall Adler.

Hello everybody.

I'd like to thank you all for listening to what will be an

extremely interesting episode today.

As Marshall just alluded to, we've got

a, uh, a guest speaker today.

His name is pastor Harvey Carpenter.

He's the associate pastor for Care and Outreach at journey

Christian Church in Apopka, Florida.

Harvey, welcome today.

Well, thank you very much.

It's a joy to be here and I'm looking forward to spending some

time with the both of you today.

So maybe you could tell us as the associate pastor for Care and

Outreach at Journey, what are, what are your responsibilities for the church?

Well, my primary role falls into the area

of caring for people's needs.

And so when someone has a family member that needs a visitation, let's

say in the hospital, or perhaps with hospice, uh, maybe, maybe even a

funeral, uh, even a wedding sometimes then I'm the guy that gets called to

go and, and spend time with the family.

And share with them and extend some compassion and,

and hope and prayer usually.

So that's my role primarily.

So we were talking a little bit before we started the show

and you've told us that you have a journey of grief that you've been on,

would you mind sharing that with us?

Sure I'd be happy to.

In 2002, my mother passed at a relatively young age.

She was only 58 years old and she, uh, she suffered from a rather

long sickness, cancer sickness, breast cancer that ended up going

into her bones and into her brain.

And it was a rather difficult time.

And so we watched her deteriorate over that period of time.

And that was very hard as you might imagine.

She was vibrant, she was upbeat, she was, uh, she was a go getter, she was,

uh, uh, she was a brilliant lady, really a principal at a school for mentally

and physically handicapped children.

And, uh, became nationally known, uh, because of the programming

and the work that she did there.

The parents loved her because she was done doing such good work for their children,

and she just gave her life to that.

And, um, I think perhaps that's where I get some of my empathy for other

people is through a, my mother as well.

And, but she struggled for four years and then, um, then she passed and

the whole family was gathered around her bedside when she did pass away.

And that was, uh, that was good for us to be there, to be able to say goodbye

and to spend those last moments with her.

Uh, I don't know that it makes the grieving any easier, but it

certainly makes the regret less.

And so we spent that time with her there and she passed.

She was a compassionate soul and.

Uh, really, really do miss her.

The grief that followed of course was, was challenging.

There were difficult days.

There were, uh, periods of time when you felt a little emotionally overwhelmed,

and maybe even somewhat disconnected from myself or even from life.

But, uh, I didn't, I don't think I grieved deeply, uh, over time.

It, about six years later, when God called me into another role at the church.

That's I think I started doing a lot of funerals that I really

started connect dealing with the grief that I had over my mother.

And so, um, So that's, that's God's role for me right now.

Interestingly enough, my mother was one of six children.

She came from a rather large family, from a poor family, really.

And so her oldest sister was the last to pass just a number of years ago.

She, uh, and she called me before she passed and she told me she was with

hospice and she said, Harvey, I want to, they'll let you know that the time is

coming for me and, um, I'm going to be seeing your mother soon and wow, what

a, what a revelation that was, it's not the kind of call you expect to receive.

And she said to me, is there anything you'd like for me to tell your mother when

I see her and I'm like, wow, now that's that now that's a unique conversation

to have with someone isn't it?

So I thought it through and I said, yeah, you see my mother in the next few weeks

or in a month or so tell her that I'm doing well, and that she'd be proud of me.

So then my aunt did pass and I expected that they had a conversation and that

bring me, that brought me some joy, gave me some hope, knowing that, that

I had a way of being able to share that moment, that message my love

with my mother all those years later.

So yeah.

So that's kind of my journey of grief.

Yeah, it was, uh, yeah, it was a very strange feeling, but

yeah, it was kinda like that.

Absolutely.

Um, did you struggle with your grief after her passing

or did you begin to grieve before?

Well, Immediately when she passed, uh, certainly

felt the loss and the grief and the sadness that goes along with that.

I mean, I think everyone experiences, something like that unless they go into

denial, which some people certainly do.

Uh, you know, we live in a culture that wants to ignore death.

They want to deny death.

And so for some people that means, let me put my grief in my back

pocket, let me do whatever I can to pretend like things are normal.

I wouldn't say that I did that, but at the same time, I wouldn't

say that I grieved, well.

My mother was the first person close to me to pass away.

So, I didn't understand grief then, I didn't, I didn't know how to grieve and I

didn't realize the importance of grieving.

And now I do.

Grieving is an important part of our emotional health.

And until we learn to grieve well, until we give ourselves to the

process, uh, I think it can be very challenging and difficult

following them death of a loved one.

And so it was a number of years later after I began to understand and interact

with a lot of people who are going through loss and experiencing sorrow

and mourning and increase to a deep degree that I reconnected with the grief

that I, um, that I should have pursued a little bit more with my mother and

it gave me a new insight and helped me to understand the value of grief.

And so I think it's, it's a privilege for me then to be able to, to pour

into the lives of people and who are hurting and help them grieve

in ways that are productive and useful and ultimately healing.

Grief is a long journey.

You told us something unique.

Did you actually do your mom service?

I did not do her service.

One of my best friends actually.

I asked him to do the service, even though I'm a pastor and I often

speak in front of folks um, it's challenging to do a service like that

for someone you, you, you love dearly.

And I was afraid that the emotion of it would be too much for me.

Certainly I had plenty to say, but I didn't think I'd be able to, to

emotionally handle that weight.

And so I did it obviously attend her funeral with my family and it was at the

church where I was serving at the time.

And, um, it was, uh, it was well attended of course, she was well

loved and I don't ever regret that I didn't speak at her funeral.

Some people have asked me that in the past, you know, do you wish

you had, had, had spoken and.

I don't, uh, I really, uh, was able to grieve rather than think about what I was

going to say or be at work, so to speak.

I was able to just grieve and that was important for me

and my family at that time.

So, yeah, yeah.

So it was actually at the church that you were a pastor at.

It was at the church that I pastored at the

time I was associate pastor and interestingly enough, we had just

built a brand new large facility.

And, um, we had just announced the grand opening in fact.

And, she passed a week before the grand opening.

And so as it turns out, her service was on the Friday, prior to the Sunday

that the church was actually going to open for the first time to the

community, that the new facility anyway.

And I always remember that as a, as her service being the first gathering of

people in the church building here and that, uh, it brings me joy to know that

they came to honor her life as well.

Yeah.

That's a great story.

Is that hard for you now, knowing that you had the service there and

you're actually a pastor there.

No, it's not that difficult for me now.

I take a, I take joy in knowing that her service was there.

And even in my mind, I can occasionally I'll reflect or picture the service

and how it unfolded and where people were and just have those memories.

And so the memories actually are precious to me.

It's not a, it's not a memory of a, that saddens me at all, but the memory

of just having her service there brings joy to me and, um, yeah, yeah.

Well, that's awesome.

Thank you for sharing that.

So you've been talking with us a little bit before we got on the

episode today and you actually have a rather unique tie to grief.

Well, I do, if, if you're referring to

the, my role as a pastor in the funerals that I do, yes, yes.

God has led me into a unique role and I'm one of the few pastors that

I know, or that are called to do as many funerals as, as I'm called to do.

Over the last 12 years I've done more than 1500 funerals.

And that's not something I ever set out to do.

It's not like you, you know, growing up, you say, I want to be a guy who does

funerals for everybody because it's a, it's a heavy role and it's dealing with a

lot of grief, but some doors have opened up and opportunities presented themselves

and, um, Funeral directors kept calling.

And I kept saying yes.

And so after 12 years, the number of funerals is, has increased

over 1500 and it gives me a unique perspective on grief doesn't it?

And it certainly has put me in a, in a role to, to be able to help

a lot of families along the way.

And it's a role that I, uh, I've cherished and in many ways reminds me of my mother,

who her role was to be compassionate to people and to help people.

And I suppose I inherited some of that from her as well.

I find great joy and helping people through difficult times.

And so, uh, God's honored me with that and I get to do that for a living.

Very interesting.

I don't think I'd ever met anybody before that had done that many, but I do want

to go ahead and say, Shelly and I had actually met you in the same situation and

you actually did Jordan's funeral for us.

That's true.

The first time we met was when we, uh, sat down to talk about, uh, Jordan and

his life and, um, I met you and your wife and some other family members.

And we had the chance to discuss Jordan and you told me all about who he was and

what a great child he was and how much he was deeply loved by you and Shelly.

And then, um, then a few days later, we did the, the service for him.

And I'm going to tell you, I've done an as I've mentioned, a lot of

funerals and that's one of the services that really sticks out in my mind.

For a number of reasons, not the least of which is the, uh, the

friendship that developed, uh, with you and Shelley following that.

Um, that's been a great joy in my life and I thank you for that.

I wish it had come about in a different way.

I think we both would agree on that, but it's, it's been a joy.

But the other thing that really causes me to remember Jordan service was the

fact that, um, it might've been the first time I was asked to read sort

of, uh, uh, uh, uh, eulogy, that was written by the person themselves.

Uh, remember Jordan had an assignment in school where the teacher asked them to,

to write about themselves and he did.

So we read that at service and wow.

That was impactful.

And the thing that really stands out to me too, was this teacher

who actually had made that assignment was there at the service.

And, uh, nobody could have described Jordan's life better than he did himself.

And what a, what a, what a great, uh, opportunity that was to just

let people hear Jordan's own words.

So that really stands out to me, but there's a lot of other

funerals that stand out as well.

I recall, uh, one young gal who passed on unexpectedly on Thanksgiving

day number of years ago, and her parents did something very unique.

Um, the funeral was here at the church.

It was a large gathering of people.

And people grieve in different ways.

You know, a lot of young people were here because she was young

and it was a tragic accident.

And, um, her parents, uh, chose a light gray colored casket.

And then they asked people to take permanent markers in various colors,

bright colors, red and green and blue things that you could see, that stand

out, and with the casket closed, uh, all of her friends and many others as well.

Family members, friends of friends came down and they wrote messages.

They expressed their love.

They expreseds their grief.

They were able to, to put into words actually on her casket,

you know how they felt about her.

And some of them wrote prayers.

Um, some of them wrote scriptures, uh, various things.

And I can just, in my mind, I can see that casket just completely covered

with those writings of those people.

And it was, what a unique way to let people express their grief and their

love for someone to, to, to write a message and in permanent ink on

the place where that person will, will, will remain for a long time.

And I thought that was unique.

That really stands out in my mind as a funeral I'll never forget.

But, there are others as well.

I remember a, a young father whose wife passed of Mersa infection and

it was unexpected and quick and the entire service, I don't think

anybody expected this, but he stayed at the casket hunched over weeping

and sobbing for the entire service.

And, um, what an impact that was for everybody who attended.

And I remember at the end of the service, just when you thought maybe he was ready

to get up and move on, he took out his cell phone and he played the song that

had meant so much to the two of them.

And he just, uh, he played the whole song and he, and everybody just sat

there and cried and wept, and it was, it was just a very heavy moment of

grief when you just see a man sobbing.

And, um, you know, what do you say at a time like that?

You don't, you don't say anything, you just grieve and sob with them.

That's all you can do.

So those are a couple of the services that just really stick out in my mind,

but I'm sure there are many more as well.

Let me ask you this.

Um, I think you know this, I'm a lawyer and what I do is workers' compensation.

So a lot of the things I do are dealing with medical doctors.

And I remember talking to a friend of mine who was a brain

surgeon and very nice, very nice person, but an excellent surgeon.

And he told me something that might seem strange, but I ask you this question.

He told me when he had too, save somebody's life by going literally

into their brain and cutting out a malignant brain tumor, you almost had

a, have a detached objectivity because his job was to go in and save this

person's life, the best he could by doing the surgery that was needed.

With you with so many funerals, you must have some way to be objective and

a little bit detached, because doing as many funerals as you did, if you got

personally involved in every single one, it must've been a huge burden on you.

Am I correct?

I mean, that must be a very tough balancing act for you to do, to be,

you're obviously a kind compassionate, wonderful person and a great pastor.

But also you are there to do a job.

And so let me ask you, how do you do that?

How do you keep the compassion and humanity that's needed when

somebody is grieving to help them.

But also to keep the objectivity, cause you are there to do a

job that needs to be done.

Yeah, that's a, that's a great a question

Marshall, people ask me that a lot.

Um, you know, how do you, how do you do that?

And there is, there is a, a term called, uh, compassion, fatigue, right?

Where people just get fatigued from having to express so much

compassion and empathy for folks.

And there's a balance, as you mentioned, that has to be struck there by me

and walk a fine line between being detached and thinking of this is just

a role that I, I've been called to, versus really ministering to folks.

And so, you know, I try to really minister to folks to the extent that I can.

Fortunately for me, uh, most of the folks that I'm called to serve, um,

I don't, I don't know personally.

Some I do, but the vast majority are people that I've never met.

And it's good.

And I relished the opportunity to serve them.

And it's, it's good that they're reaching out, you know, to, to a

pastor for help at a time like this.

They certainly, uh, sense the need for, that's why they're calling

and why they feel like, uh, you know, that want a pastor there.

So there's a ministry to be, um, be had there and that's, that's wonderful.

But people will ask me, is it easier for you to do a service, a officiate, a, a

memorial or a funeral service for someone, you know, or someone you don't know?

And the honest answer is it's easier from an emotional perspective

for someone I don't know.

Because there's not as much emotional attachment.

If I know the person, somebody may be from the church where I serve or

a family member or somebody in the community that I know a long time friend

perhaps it's much more challenging.

Because there's that emotional component and you want to make sure

that you know, that, uh, that you don't get too emotionally involved while

you're trying to conduct a service.

And so, um, it's, it's, it's much more challenging that way, but yeah,

there's a balance that has to be struck.

I won't say it's easy and I have found myself, I'll be honest with you on

a couple of occasions with people.

I don't know, sitting in a service and the story is told and I get emotional.

I think that's just part of the territory and it may be that comes with

a compassionate heart to some degree.

But I think the other part of the answer to your question, and I think

this is the real answer is, God has given me a capacity to be able to

do this beyond my normal talent or skill would normally, you know, be.

I think this is really a gift that God's given me.

And, and so perhaps I'm able to bear a little more than most people

and it's something that, uh, you know, he's put up on my heart to do.

And, um, and I keep getting, um, uh, people referred to me.

And so it tells me that, you know, there there's an opportunity here to touch

lives and that's really what I want to do.

So if that means there's a little bit of, uh, uh, emotional, uh, baggage

or fatigue that goes with it, so be it, that's what I'm called to do.

So, yeah, it's not an easy thing really.

That's great that you realize you have this special gift and

you're willing to help others with it.

That speaks volumes about your compassion.

That's wonderful.

Well, thank you very much.

Harvey.

One of the questions I had was when you get a call, you reach out to them.

You meet with them before the service, usually.

Do you say different things to different families?

Is it a case by case?

Because I remember when we met you, we said, hello, and we handed you a

picture of Jordan and the first thing you said to me was, tell me about Jordan.

You had us at that moment because that's all we wanted to do is

make sure you knew who he was.

Yeah.

The most important thing for me is to know, uh, a little bit

about the life of the person.

Because that's what matters.

I mean, the details of the service, the flow of the service, the particulars of,

you know, what's going to happen in terms of making the service, you know, work

it that you can, that can come later.

But, helping people share what's really the most important thing in

their life, and that is their loved one at that time thats passed away.

I want to hear their emotion.

I want to hear their words.

I want to hear them talk about that loved one.

It not only helps me, but I think it helps them as well as they begin to, uh, process

the grief that, uh, is, is, is there.

And, and ironically, people want to talk about their loved ones.

That's that's the big misnomer that people have is I don't want to bring up

a loved one because it's going to cause some pain in the person's life and that's

really, that's really, it, may cause some pain, but it's pain that they want

to feel because that's what grief is.

It's, it's a painfulness that is, is sweet in some ways, because it's a memory of

something that you deeply, deeply love.

And want to keep with you forever.

So you want to talk about that.

They want to, they want to highlight, you know, their loved one and

what they accomplished and what their passions were and you know,

how they conducted their life.

And what the legacy that has been left is all about.

And so I typically try to get people to talk initially about their loved one.

And then we save the details for later.

But one of the things that I think is important for people to know is

where I'm coming from as a pastor and what my perspective is and

what I want to accomplish, what I think I, we all want to really

accomplish, uh, with, with the service.

Whether it's a funeral or memorial service, whether it's

a chapel service or a grave site service, whatever the case may be.

I tell folks, listen, one of the things that we I'd like for us to do

is honor your loved one at the service.

So, what that means is we want to take an opportunity to share

those, those wonderful memories, those positive memories.

We want to tell stories of love and joy.

We want to talk about the past that they had in life.

We want to honor your loved one.

That's what we're here to do is to, is to honor them, to have those, those memories

that make us, you know, just smile.

And then I say to them, but the second thing we'd like to

do is comfort, the loved ones.

So people are coming and they're looking for a word of comfort.

People need to know that there's comfort, that exists, that can, that

can help them, and that can sooth them and that can, you know, bring

healing and hope to a broken heart.

And so I tell them that we want to, uh, we wanna, we want to provide some comfort.

For me, that comfort usually comes through the sharing of scripture

because I believe one of the things that God does best as he comforts us.

And so, you know, I'll share or passage that, that just talks about the comfort

of God and the presence of God and the goodness of God, like Psalm 46 says

God is our refuge and our strength, a very present help in times of trouble.

That's a powerful reminder that in the midst of your sorrow and

grief and your pain and your mourning that God is present.

And not only is he present, but he cares.

And so that's a comforting thing for people to be reminded of.

I suppose, the most comforting of passage of all is Psalm 23.

You know, the Lord is my shepherd and he talks about how he walks with us

through the valleys of grief and pain.

And he's there in the midst of us.

When it says there, I walk through the Valley, I'm always reminded it

doesn't say I run through the Valley.

We walk because we know God is with us and he's walking

beside us every step of the way.

And it's always good to know that he's there.

So the goal is to bring comfort.

And then finally, I want to point people in right direction.

People are looking for hope.

People are realized life is fragile.

And it can be short and, um, they're looking for hope.

And so we want to point people in the right direction.

We want to talk about what's important in life.

Family is important, of course, friends are important and faith is important.

In the end that's really all that matters.

Family, friends, and faith.

That's all you have.

And so I talk about the importance of, uh, giving people, uh, you know,

hope and pointing them in the right direction and making that, which is a

priority in your life, your priority, living in such a way that you bring

honor and glory to your loved one.

That's the best legacy you can live.

Live your life in a way that they would be appreciative of it.

So, those are the three things I really try to tell families when I talk to them

initially, you know, talk about their loved one, get them to share that story

with me, and then we talk a little bit about the service and how that's going

to flow and what's important to them.

And do they want to include music?

Do they want to have scripture?

Do they want prayers?

Do they, who do they want to give the eulogy?

Um, do they have other family members who want to say some things?

So, all of that has to be set up and then, um, then we do the service.

So that's how it usually happens.

Marshall, did you have a, a question?

On, I think we were talking earlier between the different religions and

different things for comparison,

Right?

Uh, Harvey, you know, I met you through Grief Share and you know that, uh,

I'm Jewish and, um, growing up Jewish, I've learned that Jewish religion has

certain procedures dealing with grief and one of the tenants is to help have

the community help somebody who lost a loved one is called sitting shivah.

When somebody loses a loved one, the community rallies around the

family, taking over the house, taking, bringing food in, taking

care of all the family members.

And it's really a wonderful thing to see people rallying around

you when you most need people.

My question to you is sort of twofold.

Um, again, I'd been to many funerals of Jewish friends.

I've been to many funerals of Christian friends.

And I've noticed a lot of similarities between a Jewish

and a Christian funeral service.

I see the same thing with family and friends railing around, which is great.

So my question is twofold is do you see any distinction between Judaism and

Christianity with that, but also, as we're taping this, I guess that's all as we're

doing this on the computer digitally, somebody might be listening to this

50 years from now we're doing this in 2020, during the middle of a worldwide

COVID-19 coronavirus pandemic, where for centuries, the way that the Jewish and

Christian religions have been dealing with grief is to get people together.

Get people, hogging, get people.

As far, the antithesis of social distancing is a sitting shivah

situation or a funeral situation.

So my question is now again, how does the Christian religion, if similar

similarities or differences with the Jewish religion, but also how

are you dealing with the fact that everything we're being told to keep

us safe now with the COVID-19 Corona virus is at odds with what people

have done for thousands of years, helping loved ones go through grief.

So it's a twofold question.

Yeah, that, that, uh, that's, we're in a unique time for sure.

That's that's true.

Well, the reality is, um, I often get asked to speak at,

uh, funerals for Jewish folks.

I mean, that's not an uncommon thing.

And the reality is that Christianity and Judaism, um, both share common

scriptures, you know, so you've got the, the Hebrew scriptures and you've

got the new covenant as it were.

And I often use even for a Christian family the old covenant, the Hebrew

scriptures, and there's so many good texts there that remind us of God's presence

and God's comfort in God's goodness.

And I mean, I'm just reminded of Psalm 34, you know, the Lord

is near to the broken hearted.

He saves those who are crushed in spirit.

And I tell folks, yeah, may feel overwhelmed today.

You may feel as though you're crushed by your emotions, but the promises

that God is with you and that he saves.

And of course, if it's a family that puts their hope in Christ as a Christian

family, I would say that the resurrection of Jesus is what gives us hope today.

And, and so, uh, but there are so many common teachings and common language

that can be used between a Jewish or Christian, uh, service that you know,

that they're in many ways, very similar.

Very similar.

And in terms of practice, uh, again, I mean, you can go all

the way back to the scriptures.

Jesus was a Jew.

I mean, you see him attending funerals and, you know, at the

funeral of Lazarus, you know, he was mourning with the mourners there.

He, he went to express his love and concern and be with Mary

and Martha Lazarus's funeral.

And those were Lazarus's sisters.

And it says there, the shortest verse in the scriptures is that Jesus

wept, his compassion was overflowing.

And so, you know, when we think about, uh, uh, grieving, we think about, I

mean, there's a common denominator in grief, no matter what your religion.

Whether you're Jewish or Christian or Buddhist or whatever it might be.

I mean, weeping and gnashing of teeth and doing the kinds of things

that express grief physically.

It's a commonality between them all.

If you go back a little further into ancient times, and I'm not sure whether

or not this is still a practice in Judaism, but I mean, people used

to grieve outwardly and physically.

I mean, they would, they would rip their clothes.

They would put ashes on their head.

They would, they would isolate them themselves for a certain amount of time.

There would be a period of mourning.

You don't see that as much today.

And in our Western culture at least.

Mourning doesn't unfold in that way.

Grief doesn't seem to take that path.

It's, it's almost, almost always seems like it's back to business as usual, you

know, after a service and people don't take time to grieve, like they used to.

So I think that's one of the, one of the beauties of the

Jewish religion as I see it.

If you look back into the old Testament, there were some practices

there that I think we would all be better served by if we were to

adopt them and grieve in those ways.

I really do, but I, cause I think there's a lot of wisdom and value in that.

And that's why you can read the Psalms and it's just full of passages

about God's presence and overcoming difficult times, whatever they may be.

As far as today's uh situation with COVID, I've done a number of services where

we've had to have social distancing, and I'm gonna tell you it's an odd thing.

Where people can't get together and naturally they want to be

close to one another and they want to be a, you know, hugging and

weeping and wiping away the tears.

And when that's not, uh, you know, almost comes second nature to folks, uh,

but when that's, when you're prevented from doing that, it, it seems strange.

It seems, uh, out of the normal, uh, flow of how you would normally grieve.

And so I think though, there will come a time where we get through that,

people go right back to, to grieving and, and, and, and being close.

I think families may, uh, may ignore some of the social distancing

simply because their family.

You know, they feel much more comfortable around one another, but

when you start bringing strangers or extended family or guests into the mix.

Yeah, it does make for a unique environment, especially now that we're

all practicing social distancing and wearing masks and things like that.

It's very different.

So how it has an effect on grief?

I don't know.

Probably doesn't have a very good effect on grief, because I think one of the

things that helps people have hope for the future is knowing that they're

loved and cared for and that almost always takes personal human touch.

And so we're lacking some of that right now.

The social distancing that's happening and the isolation that's

happening is contributing to, I think, more emotional and relational

dysfunction right now through COVID.

So, hopefully we'll come to a time when this whole period is over soon.

Thats, that's our prayer, at least for sure.

Do you have any of the families reach out after the

service recently in the last few months where they're struggling

because of the situation.

No, I haven't had any families reach out and mention

anything about struggling because of covert or anything like that.

It's not uncommon though, for families to reach out afterwards, um, to inquire

about maybe a next step for their family or for them personally, with their grief.

And oftentimes that next step, um, at least for me, would be to

suggest to them a support group.

And the support groups, uh, that I'm familiar with, there's one called Grief

Share that we have at our church, and we recommend people, uh, who looking for

help through their grief, join that group.

And, um, we've been doing it for a number of years, have a great leaders

and many people have gone through it.

And most expressed to me and to others that is very helpful.

And it's, it's a it's, uh, it's designed to be discussion oriented.

Uh, people come together, they share their stories, they share their grief.

They remind one another that they can get through this and they can

cope even in the midst of the pain.

And so, uh, I'll often recommend that when people follow up with me.

Sometimes if they're asking specifically for a therapist or a counselor,

we have partners that we work with at church that we can recommend

and sometimes we do that as well.

Yeah.

Yep.

And that sometimes people will just ask, you know, about the church and

how to get more involved, and there's an enlightening that happens to them

at the death of a loved one, where they start thinking about eternity.

They start thinking about their own passing and the importance so of life,

and they want to make some changes.

And so that sometimes that's a discussion that takes place and, um, you know, that's

uh, and I think that's a good thing.

That's, again, goes back to what I said before about pointing

people in the right direction.

Um, just helping remind, just helping remind people that

there's more beyond this life.

And when you begin to grasp that there's more than what we just see day to day.

Um, it, it starts to open up some things in some people's minds.

I'll give you an illustration.

There's a, a monument in Spain.

That's a monument to Christopher Columbus.

And it's well known.

You can, you can look it up it, uh, and at the bottom of the monument, it says no

plus ultra, which means no more beyond.

Meaning that this is all there is, there's no more beyond this is it.

But what Columbus discovered was that in fact there is more beyond,

he was an Explorer, as you know.

And so at the base of this monument is, um, is a lion.

And the lion is reaching out with its paw and it's striking away the word no.

So now the monument reads more beyond.

And what a great reminder that sometimes we have blinders on that this is all

there is this world that we live in.

Cause it's all we see.

But as great explorers have revealed, there's, there's much more out of

sight than there is just around us.

And there's more beyond this life.

And I try to give people hope that what you see and experience every day.

That's just a small, tiny part of the reality that actually exists.

And I think it gives them hope, not only for themselves, but even for

their loved one that's passed on.

And, um, so yeah.

Yeah,

That's so important because Steve and I have talked so many

times that obviously the name of this show is Hope Thru Grief and we all know that

grief is directly related to the amount of love you have for your lost loved one.

So the more you love, the more you're going to grieve.

And Steve and I, you know, we both lost sons and it's something that

we know we will be on, this grief journey for the rest of our lives.

But we also know the lifes for the living and we have to do everything

we can to live our lives as a tribute, to our lossed loved ones.

And part of that is to have hope for the future.

To have hope, to try to help people.

So obviously what you're doing is incredibly important because you

are giving people hope literally through grief at their time of need.

So, you know, I've known you personally as a very wonderful, caring person, but

hearing you talk professionally as a pastor, it's obviously you're very good

at what you do and you're helping a lot of people that are going through grief.

And Lord knows we are in a time in history where there be

an enormous amount of grief.

Why?

Because we're in the middle of a worldwide pandemic.

So I think doing what you're doing is literally something that

could be saving so many people.

It's a wonderful thing to hear.

Well, thank you, Marshall.

I, I certainly consider it a privilege to do that and also to be able to share

what God's doing through me and through Journey with you all, and hopefully with

many of other people through this podcast.

And so I just consider it a privilege.

And you're right.

I'm hope in the midst of grief is really what it's all about.

Hope what keeps us going day to day.

Uh, just realizing that, um, you know, life can get better, even

though there's going to continue to be pain and we'll have to cope

with, uh, sadness and heartbreak.

Uh, but we can still be productive.

We can still move forward.

We can still impact those around us.

We can still make a difference.

And I think, I think what gives people hope in the midst of all the sorrow and

sadness is knowing that they're loved.

I think that's important.

People need to realize that they're loved.

And, um, loved by their family, loved by their friends, you know, loved by God.

Uh, love is so important.

People need to remember that even when you feel that you're not loved, actually

you are, and people need to accept that.

And I think that gives people hope.

The other thing is.

As we mentioned before, hope comes from realizing that there's

more beyond just this life.

I mean, and, and when we begin to let that sink in, um, it opens up

windows of opportunity for, for not only this life, but we've start

thinking about the life to come.

And so that I think gives people a lot of hope.

And then I think another thing that gives people hope is understanding

that God is ultimately in control.

There's so little in this life that we can actually control, that,

that God is ultimately in control.

And when we're willing to give up, you know, control to him and trust

in him and realize, uh, he's good that, that brings us some hope.

You know, I think that brings hope.

And I'm just reminded, you know, there's a scripture in the new Testament

that says in God's presence, this is Revelation chapter 21, that in God's

presence, there's no more pain or sorrow or heartbreak or sin that says

all things have been made brand new.

And isn't that the hope that we really ultimately look for is that God's

going to kind of remake this world and that there's something better coming?

You know, Jesus says I've gone and prepared a place for you so that,

you know, I can I'll come and get you and take you to be with me.

We look forward to God making things right in our deep, in our souls.

That's what we want to happen.

And that gives us hope, believing that it will.

It doesn't make grief any easier, but it does give us hope to keep going on.

So yeah, those are some, some of my thoughts about hope right there.

Thank you for sharing that with us today.

I think a lot of us struggle with the death of a loved one to

the point where you wonder why that happened to my loved one.

Why did it happen to us?

What would you encourage them, how would you look at that?

And how would you encourage them to look at it a little bit differently?

Yeah, I hear that a lot.

People like to ask that question.

Why?

I mean, that is the question, isn't it?

That we want to know when a loved one passes on whether it's from a you

know, tragic, unexpected accident or whether they suffered for a long time.

We want to know why, because it seems so unfair.

You know, if God's loving and God is good, why did he let this happen?

So we want to know why, because we want to believe in our hearts that

there's, there must be a good reason that God allowed this to happen.

So we want to know why?

But the reality is, and we find this from the book of job out

of the old Testament, is that.

That question is an unanswerable question for us.

We're never going to understand or know the question, the

answer to the question why.

God doesn't reveal that to us.

I mean, we wish that he would, of course I would love to know, you

know, why certain people have passed on, you know, before their time, but

that's the kind of information it seems that's only reserved for God.

And maybe there are good reasons that we don't understand as to why.

But the fact of the matter is we just don't have the answers and to

speculate is maybe not a good thing.

Speculation tends to go the wrong way.

And so, uh, people often ask that question, Steven, and, uh, of course I

refuse to answer the question because I don't know the answer and I encourage

them not to, I encourage them not to seek the answer to that question because that

that'll that'll drive you mad over time.

As, as the answer continues to change, as you, uh, as you grow in your grief

and as you learn to cope with the new reality, that answer will tend to change.

And so now you're questioning yourself and you're questioning the answer or

you're ultimately questioning God.

I mean, it, it doesn't lead to a good place.

I think the best thing to do instead of ask why is just trust and hope that.

Put hope in that God is good and that ultimately he will work

everything out and that's really, all you can do is just trust in him.

That's, that's, that's my answer to, you know, people who ask the question why,

And it's not to say that he can't make something good come

out of it, which I've seen myself.

Oh, of course.

Oh, of course.

Oftentimes he does.

God takes our mess and makes a masterpiece on many occasions.

He takes the, the, the worst, uh, situations, the most tragic circumstances

that the deal pain in our life.

And he'll often take that hurt or that weakness or, and he'll, he'll turn

it into something that's a strength.

He'll turn it into something that's a, that's a, that's a powerful

tool to be used in various ways to help so many other people.

And that's, that is, that's kind of the ironic thing about pain, is that pain

as much as we dislike is very useful.

I mean, without pain, there would be all kinds of problems in life.

Pain is a, is a marker that teaches us things.

And let's, let's not kid ourselves, grief is painful.

Mourning is painful.

Deep sorrow hurts like nobody's business, but, that doesn't mean that God can't

take our pain and transform it into a powerful force in not only our lives,

but in the lives of other people.

He's, he's good at transforming things.

And, um, when we cooperate with that transformation, good things can

come of it, just like this podcast and then many other endeavors that

we could probably mention as well.

Thank you for your insight and your thoughts and your stories.

I've enjoyed them over the six years that I've gotten to know you.

Marshall, did you have any last questions?

Just again, thank you so much.

Again, I'm glad we had this opportunity because I met you through Grief Share and

that was sort of a slice, and today I saw the bigger pie of your personality, which

is great to see because you're obviously caring, loving, compassionate, human

being and doing what you do is wonderful.

And obviously you have the skillset and the personality and the intellectual,

I'm not, I'm not just talking about IQ wise, but EQ, emotional quotient.

You can be a very intelligent person, but not be empathetic,

caring, emotionally open.

And obviously you are, so this was a pleasure and a privilege

to talk to you today, seeing the whole pie instead of just a piece.

Well, likewise, um, you guys are doing a wonderful

service to so many people around the world who are hurting and just

need that loving guidance and care.

And so I thank you for the opportunity to, to share with you today and

pray for great success for both of you who may you be blessed and, and

may God continue to walk with you.

Thank you very much.

You said you got a Grief Share coming up.

What is the start date for that?

So, Grief share starts on August the third, which is a Monday.

It will be presented online this time due to the circumstances with COVID.

So, uh, yeah.

So in fact, no matter where you are in the world, if you wanted to join in on

Monday nights, um, you could certainly do that and you just go to the journey,

Christian Church website, and, um, can you register there and we'd love to have

you as a part of our Grief Share group.

Well, thank you for sharing that with us.

And that's all I have for today on the questions.

I think you more than covered what I had, Marshall?

Absolutely.

Again, thank you so much for being a wonderful guest and we

can't thank you enough for the wonderful work you're doing.

Well, thank you so much.

It's been a, it's been a pleasure.

And I look forward to, uh, maybe sometime in the future coming back

and sharing with you some more.

Thank you, pastor Harvey.

And that'll wrap up for a show today with pastor Harvey Carpenter,

associate pastor at Journey Christian Church in Apopka, Florida.

Thank you for joining us today on this episode of Hope Thru Grief.

Thank you for joining us on Hope Thru Grief with your cohost

Marshall Adler and Steve Smelski.

We hope

our episode today was helpful and informative.

Since we are not medical or mental health professionals, we cannot

and will not, provide any medical, psychological, or mental health advice.

Therefore, if you or anyone, you know, requires medical or mental health

treatment, please contact a medical or mental health professional immediately.