The dialogue between Heather Hester and Dr. Ronnie Gladden dives deep into the intricate layers of identity and the transformative power of self-reflection. Dr. Gladden, an accomplished speaker and educator, shares his personal journey of grappling with his identity, which culminated in his thought-provoking book, "White Girl Within." This work is not merely a recounting of experiences but serves as a reflective tool for readers to engage with their own identities. Dr. Gladden describes an emotional epiphany that led him to write, revealing how relationships can act as mirrors, reflecting aspects of ourselves we may not be ready to confront.

The essence of the discussion revolves around intersectionality and the concept of identity as a complex interplay of various factors. Dr. Gladden articulates how traditional narratives often reduce identity to a single facet, neglecting the multifaceted nature of human experience. He encourages listeners to embrace their diverse identities, asserting that acknowledging all parts of oneself leads to deeper connections and understanding of others. This theme is particularly relevant in today’s sociopolitical climate, where discussions about identity are more crucial than ever. The conversation also highlights the necessity for individuals to engage in continuous self-exploration and to confront the societal norms that dictate identity expression.

Allyship emerges as a significant topic, with Dr. Gladden advocating for a more integrated approach to supporting marginalized voices. He stresses that being an ally involves recognizing one’s own privileges and intersections, urging allies to engage authentically and thoughtfully. The dialogue ends on a hopeful note, emphasizing that the work of understanding oneself and others is a lifelong journey. Heather's appreciation for Dr. Gladden’s insights emphasizes the importance of these conversations in fostering a more inclusive environment for all. The episode leaves listeners with a renewed sense of purpose in their personal journeys and a commitment to embrace their authentic selves while supporting others.

Takeaways:

• Dr. Ronnie Gladden shares their journey of identity exploration through writing and introspection.
• It's important to embrace all aspects of our identities and acknowledge their intersectionality.
• Being an ally involves recognizing your own intersections and using them to support others.
• Authenticity requires a balance between political awareness and personal identity expression.
• The journey of self-discovery can take many years, as seen in Dr. Gladden's 15-year process.
• Creating a dialogue around identity allows for deeper understanding and acceptance of oneself and others.

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Email: hh@chrysalismama.com

About our Guest:

Dr. Ronnie Gladden (they/them) is an international speaker, actor, and tenured college professor. They regularly speak about identity, diversity, and inclusion for K-12 schools, universities, and nonprofits, including the Ronald McDonald House Charities, the city of Cincinnati, Northern Kentucky University, and more. They hold a doctorate in educational leadership from Northern Kentucky University, where they defended and published a dissertation on diversity leadership and intersectionality. Dr. Ronnie also appeared in The Rachel Divide, a documentary about complex identity, which premiered at the Tribeca Film Festival in 2018 and now streams on Netflix. Learn more at www.whitegirlwithin.com.

http://www.facebook.com/drronniespeaks

http://www.instagram.com/drronniespeaks/

Host: 00:00:06

Welcome back to Just Breathe.

Host: 00:00:08

I am really happy you are here today, and I'm just grateful you've taken a few minutes out of your busy schedule to listen in.

Host: 00:00:19

And I cannot tell you how excited I am for you to listen to the conversation that I got to have with this absolutely extraordinary human being.

Host: 00:00:32

And I learned so much, and I know that you are going to, too.

Host: 00:00:39

And there were just a million questions that I had.

Host: 00:00:42

So, as you listen, I'd love to know if there are other questions that come up for you, because I certainly feel like this is a guest that I will have back again and would love to just continue exploring just everything that they know and who they are and what they're doing in this world.

Host: 00:01:07

So I just want to give you a quick.

Host: 00:01:09

A quick bio, a quick background on my wonderful, wonderful guest, whose name is Ronnie Gladden.

Host: 00:01:18

Dr.

Host: 00:01:18

Ronnie Gladden.

Host: 00:01:20

They are an international speaker, an actor, and tenured college professor.

Host: 00:01:27

They regularly speak about identity, diversity, and inclusion for K12 schools, universities, and nonprofits, including the Ronald McDonald House Charities, the City of Cincinnati, Northern Kentucky University, and more.

Host: 00:01:42

They hold a doctorate in educational leadership from Northern Kentucky University, where they defended and published a dissertation on diversity, leadership, and intersectionality.

Host: 00:01:53

Dr.

Host: 00:01:54

the Tribeca film festival in: 2018

Host: 00:02:07

One of the things that Dr.

Host: 00:02:09

Ronnie and I got to talk about and that you will get to hear us talk about, but I want you to run out and not even run out and buy click on Amazon and order it today.

Host: 00:02:20

Their book, which is called White Girl within, is one of the best books I've read this year.

Host: 00:02:30

And I absolutely.

Host: 00:02:32

I learned so much from this book.

Host: 00:02:34

I was so moved.

Host: 00:02:37

And it really also encouraged me to do some very introspective thinking and to really look at myself and who I am in this world.

Host: 00:02:51

So I encourage you right now.

Host: 00:02:53

There will also be a link, as always, in the show notes that are attached to this.

Host: 00:02:58

But without further ado, I want to introduce Dr.

Host: 00:03:04

Ronnie Glad.

Heather Hester: 00:03:17

Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting, your LGBTQ team, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child.

Heather Hester: 00:03:30

My name is Heather Hester, and I am so grateful you are here.

Heather Hester: 00:03:34

I want you to take a deep breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest.

Heather Hester: 00:03:44

Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop, having a cozy chat.

Heather Hester: 00:04:01

Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.

Host: 00:04:19

So, Ronnie, welcome.

Host: 00:04:20

Welcome to the show.

Host: 00:04:22

I'm so happy that you're here, and I am.

Host: 00:04:25

I've been so looking forward to this interview and this chat with you.

Host: 00:04:29

And I have about a million and one questions that I want to ask and things that I just think are so unique and thought provoking about what you do and who you are and the barriers that you have broken.

Host: 00:04:45

And I'd really love to start with talking about your book, which is called White Girl within, which, if that's not an intriguing enough title, I mean, come on.

Host: 00:04:59

Yeah, so, I mean, just so fascinating.

Host: 00:05:04

So I'd love to know, just kind of to start off, just some background on what brought you to writing that book and what made you really realize and start to embrace all of these different pieces about you.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:05:21

So I had an identity crisis.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:05:25

I was in my partner's house, and for whatever reason, I just had a lot of emotions all flood me at one time.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:05:38

And at the time, she was a resident to become a doctor, so she was already psychologically oriented.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:05:46

And she had friends that also were older than us, and they were mental health professionals as well.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:05:54

So we had a unique sort of support system that was there, but she wasn't even in the house.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:06:00

I was just there.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:06:02

And I had this.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:06:04

It almost felt like a looming deadline of sorts to try to get a handle over the fullness of my authenticity.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:06:14

And so I don't know if I was spurred along in part because of the new partnerships and people that I had in my life, along with just reflecting from issues of my childhood.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:06:25

So what happened is I just started writing.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:06:27

There was a notebook that was nearby, pretty small notebook, and I'm welling up with tears, and I'm just, like, writing out this situation about what.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:06:38

What I was.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:06:39

And this is late: 2000

Ronnie Gladden: 00:06:52

I mean, those terms certainly existed, but, you know, they weren't as accessible like they are today.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:06:59

And I hadn't yet started to contextualize on that in a.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:07:03

In a doctoral program yet.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:07:05

So I'm just writing from a very instinctive place.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:07:08

So just being flooded with emotions and just having this reckoning that, you know, I'm in this relationship and there are things that are certainly about.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:07:18

About it that I like and we're good for each other.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:07:20

But at the same time, like most people, I think realize when you're in a relationship, there's no hiding.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:07:29

You are confronted with yourself just as much as you're confronted with the person that is your plus one.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:07:38

And because I hadn't done a lot of the work that maybe more people had done growing up being hetero or just being more.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:07:47

Just owning whatever their identity is in the first place, and me not doing that, I grew up acting, I grew up performing.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:07:54

So it was like I was grappling with what I naturally was.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:07:57

And then when I was animated, I'm portraying other people.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:08:02

So there's yet again another diversion.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:08:04

So a lot of the work that most people would do growing up, I hadn't done.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:08:11

And it was like being super late on this big homework assignment, so to speak.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:08:17

And so that's.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:08:19

That's what ended up happening.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:08:21

And it's just like the subconscious took over.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:08:23

It just started just writing.

Host: 00:08:27

I love that.

Host: 00:08:27

The whole free writing, free writing idea, right?

Host: 00:08:31

And just allowing.

Host: 00:08:33

Oh, my goodness.

Host: 00:08:34

So I think that's fascinating because I think that that's something that I know from.

Host: 00:08:40

For me personally, I didn't do any of that work growing up either.

Host: 00:08:44

I think it kind of depends on, you know, kind of where you.

Host: 00:08:47

What type of family you grow up in and where you grow up.

Host: 00:08:50

And, you know, obviously so many pieces that come together to create that.

Host: 00:08:56

And I'm just wondering, as you did that work and as you wrote, that started writing and which ended up being letters, right?

Host: 00:09:05

That's part of.

Host: 00:09:06

Part of your work, right.

Host: 00:09:09

And part of what you teach is writing these letters.

Host: 00:09:12

What did you, you know, kind of what were the things that really started coming up that you were able to say, oh, okay, this, like the light bulb moments.

Host: 00:09:22

What were those?

Ronnie Gladden: 00:09:24

I think it was the light bulb moments were like shining a light on what otherwise was siloed or was basically in the shadow.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:09:37

So whatever it is that I had to repress, because it's like, here it is born in the body of a black male and having certain expectations that go along with that, a very narrow set of expectations.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:09:54

And a lot of us have that.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:09:55

But because of being a minority and a minority within a minority, I think I felt perhaps even more of the weight of what it was like to be marginalized.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:10:08

And so therefore, I had to find a way to exist with that, but then to take what otherwise was repressed and find a way to put it someplace, wherever.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:10:23

Wherever that is, and work with abstractions.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:10:26

So in writing it was like I was able to tap into those abstractions, so to speak about how I really felt my hair was supposed to be, as opposed to substituting for a hairstyle that maybe had a little bit of a tweak or nuance to it that would allow for me to convey some originality.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:10:49

And in doing that, that was me trying to have a bit of an approximation of what I would do if I had the full license or felt that I had the full license to express myself, but only just a little bit.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:11:02

Whatever was repressed, suppressed, oppressed, it was like, let me draw it out through words.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:11:10

So it's like words and pictures coming together.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:11:12

So let me create a portraiture or try to begin to find a portraiture of what the, this internalized white female might look like.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:11:24

So let me try to approximate the weight, the height, the bone structure, the hair, the eyes.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:11:30

Let me try to approximate her voice.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:11:33

Let me try to approximate what she would do if she actually could be in three dimensional form and what have you.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:11:44

So it was like trying to, to sketch a portraiture and to get caught up with a lot of lost time and trying to shed light on that.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:11:54

And obviously at the time, with so many emotions, you know, it wasn't intellectual at all.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:12:00

It was, it was pure emotion.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:12:02

So it was, it was, it was what ultimately wound up being an approximation of the repressed voice.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:12:12

So it's like trying to work with conscious dialogue, black male, subconscious dialogue, internal white female, against unconscious dialogue.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:12:24

That's maybe a little bit of the two.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:12:27

And then trying to approximate what those voices are like pitted against, I guess, unconscious dialogue and perspective of society.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:12:38

So, you know, so once I thought more about it, then I could articulate it in that way.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:12:42

But at the time it was just trying to disentangle all these different voices and just trying to just get out of my head and get these emotions out.

Host: 00:12:55

Right.

Host: 00:12:56

Well, and, and once you were able to do that, well, first of all, how long did that take you to do?

Ronnie Gladden: 00:13:03

g it like I was describing in: 2008

Ronnie Gladden: 00:13:15

So off and on, not the entire time, because there was time I lost the book and moved and all that, but off and on it's been about a 15 year process.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:13:27

So it's been a big chunk of my life.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:13:30

And I had no idea, wow, it would take that long.

Host: 00:13:35

Well, I'm sure not.

Host: 00:13:36

At what point did they begin to.

Host: 00:13:38

Were you able to begin to kind of like see the intersection and, and kind of Begin to make a flow of who you are as a whole person.

Host: 00:13:48

Right.

Host: 00:13:49

All these pieces were you able to kind of be able to pull together?

Host: 00:13:53

And does that make sense, what I'm asking?

Ronnie Gladden: 00:13:57

Yeah.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:13:58

Two years before that, starting the pennant, I did go to counseling for the first time.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:14:09

But at the time I was down and I just felt like my career, because I was very new in my career.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:14:15

You know, I just launched my teaching career and I was glad to do that, but, you know, I wasn't teaching in the way that I had envisioned.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:14:23

I started out teaching college in this little strip mall.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:14:25

It was like one of those for profit colleges.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:14:27

And it just, you know, at first it was exciting, but then like two years in, it's like, all right, what am I doing?

Ronnie Gladden: 00:14:33

So it was more of a, you know, feeling dissatisfied with the lack of the career, even though it was starting.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:14:42

But pretty quickly in the sessions, the identity identity came out, which I did not expect to do.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:14:50

I just thought I was having a quarter life crisis based on a lack of career gusto or the career taking off.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:15:01

And then that came out.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:15:03

I'm like, I couldn't believe that I had shared that with anyone.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:15:06

It was like, because that was with me since I was 4 years old.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:15:09

And I just thought, this is just something I'll just take to the grave and just deal with it.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:15:14

But it came out then.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:15:15

So I think that helped because there were some articles that the psych resident gave.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:15:21

One of them was interesting because I had mentioned Michael Jackson before because that was like a kind of obvious approximation.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:15:28

Even though, you know, on record Jackson affirmed his blackness and never came out as trans.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:15:36

But for me it was just like, here's someone that started out with a similar phenotype, a similar look, and they modified it and then got to a totally different continuum, you know, a different appearance on the identity continuum.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:15:54

So it's like, well, that is something that's.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:15:56

I can approximate.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:15:57

So the psych resident gave me this article, why Michael Jackson's Nose Makes Us Uneasy.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:16:04

That that's the title.

Host: 00:16:06

Oh my gosh.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:16:07

Yeah, that was.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:16:09

That's the literal title.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:16:10

And I ended up.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:16:11

And it's a really good article.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:16:12

I ended up citing some of it in my doctoral dissertation.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:16:16

But that's the literal title of it and it talks about they were really harsh on him, even though he had already come out with his vitiligo.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:16:24

They said, here's someone with a mutilated consciousness and that was extrapolated to his face and he's trying to escape his materiality.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:16:34

It was.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:16:34

It was really, really scathing.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:16:37

But, you know, in some ways I saw myself in that maybe there are some things that are mutilated, perhaps.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:16:47

I don't know.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:16:48

I just know that that's still my authentic truth.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:16:52

So that article helped in a way to begin to craft language and to begin to put a framework around this and conceptualize it.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:17:00

And so I had some of that two years prior.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:17:04

So there was a little bit of a foregrounding.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:17:08

And then it just so happened I met a doctor, and then that doctor, like I said, had friends that were psychologically oriented.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:17:14

So there were some discussions with that.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:17:17

And then shortly after, I entered into a doc program, so I could then begin to really, to interrogate this against the backdrop of an academic and began to create a lit review and fine literature and all this.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:17:35

So then it just started to flow.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:17:37

And then it just so happened.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:17:38

Right as that was happening, then more of that cultural vocabulary was starting to show up, you know, in the world.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:17:46

So then there's like this reinforcement.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:17:48

So it's almost odd that there was all of this kind of cultural and social backing, if you will, with what I was trying to work with as well as other people too, as I'm beginning to really work to contextualize this.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:18:04

So I guess I lucked out that way.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:18:08

So that's kind of a little bit of the background.

Host: 00:18:12

Well, I think it's so fascinating, I think, to that.

Host: 00:18:15

But that last point too, that when you're able to.

Host: 00:18:20

And I just would love to hear more of your thoughts on this, but it sounds like being able to see yourself or see pieces of yourself in society, right?

Host: 00:18:29

Whether it's other people or whether it's books or movies or tv, whatever it is.

Host: 00:18:34

What.

Host: 00:18:34

Pick your.

Host: 00:18:35

Right.

Host: 00:18:35

But being able to see yourself or pieces of yourself, that was helpful.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:18:43

That was extremely helpful because it's like, at one level, who, who thinks this, like, you know, you appear to me as a white woman, and if you told me or you went around saying that I really have this insistent, consistent, persistent feel or pull towards being a black man.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:19:10

I mean, most folks, they're going to laugh you under the table.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:19:13

Other folks are going to be highly offended and saying, here's there's someone that's appropriating certain culture and whatnot, how dare she do that?

Ronnie Gladden: 00:19:27

And I get there's pain points around this.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:19:30

And this is not to excuse that, this is not to ignore that whatsoever, because that absolutely needs to be dealt with.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:19:41

That's a part of the reconciliation.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:19:43

Yet at the same time, you know, I don't think that we have to necessarily be beholden to what our ancestors did.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:19:52

Like, we are an amalgamation of people that have crossed over to where we are today, and they did that, but in so doing that they live their lives and we're here.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:20:05

And I honor.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:20:06

I acknowledge the.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:20:08

The heritage.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:20:09

I've got some, you know, East Indian and black and all that, and some white.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:20:14

You know, I acknowledge all of what came before me, but this is still my time, my life, in terms of what I'm doing with it, what I make of it, what kinds of imprints are on me.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:20:26

And I think that there's a need to acknowledge that, and I think all of us can have that.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:20:30

So.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:20:31

But, yeah, I mean, if you were to present the opposite way, it's like, who.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:20:35

Who does that?

Ronnie Gladden: 00:20:36

But human diversity is broad, and a lot of things aren't always talked about, a lot of things aren't always convenient.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:20:44

And yet here we are doing it.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:20:46

Like you said, we're doing it so we can just breathe.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:20:49

You can breathe, I can breathe, everyone else can breathe and recognize there are things that are inconvenient and improbable, but it doesn't mean that it's impossible.

Host: 00:21:00

Correct.

Host: 00:21:01

Correct.

Host: 00:21:01

And that it doesn't exist.

Host: 00:21:03

I love that you use the word to honor.

Host: 00:21:07

Right?

Host: 00:21:07

To honor what came before and be the, you know, step into our fullness while we are here.

Host: 00:21:16

Why?

Host: 00:21:16

Why are we here?

Host: 00:21:18

And I just think that I really.

Host: 00:21:25

I love.

Host: 00:21:25

I love everything that you're doing.

Host: 00:21:27

I have, like, a million things that are running through my head right now, but I appreciate so much the fact that you have been and are being so transparent and so authentic about your process.

Host: 00:21:41

And there is something in that that gives others.

Host: 00:21:48

Gives anyone who listens, anyone who knows you, anyone who reads your works, the permission to, like, take a step back and be like, oh, like, there is.

Host: 00:22:01

I feel like there's, you know, there's such a huge conversation right now about, you know, the binary versus a spectrum.

Host: 00:22:07

Right?

Host: 00:22:08

And it's so clear with any kind of, you know, research, education that it is a spectrum, and it is a beautiful spectrum.

Host: 00:22:18

And so the fact that you can speak to that and give such.

Host: 00:22:23

I don't know, my.

Host: 00:22:24

I keep going back to this word permission, but I.

Host: 00:22:26

I just feel like it's, you know, to other people, to kids.

Host: 00:22:28

I just keep thinking about, like, these kids because I do talk to so many parents of, you know, teenagers and young adolescents who are, like, just kind of being able to articulate these different things that they're seeing in themselves.

Host: 00:22:42

Right.

Host: 00:22:43

And they're feeling.

Host: 00:22:44

And I just love that there's a role model in you and that you have been so beautifully able to articulate.

Host: 00:22:53

And I.

Host: 00:22:54

I think that is such a goodness you are meant to be here.

Host: 00:23:00

Like, this is like such a.

Host: 00:23:02

Just your voice was meant.

Host: 00:23:03

Like you were just guided.

Host: 00:23:04

And the people that have been put in your life at the right time.

Host: 00:23:07

Oh, my goodness.

Host: 00:23:08

I just think it's really one of those cool things.

Host: 00:23:11

When just listening to it, I'm like, yeah, those people were totally meant to be there at that time.

Host: 00:23:16

Like, that was the right person at the right time to allow you the space to do what you needed to do and kind of step into that next phase of being.

Host: 00:23:28

And so, bravo.

Host: 00:23:31

There was really not a question in there.

Host: 00:23:33

It's just more of a thank you, an acknowledgement.

Host: 00:23:38

But I.

Host: 00:23:39

You talk a lot about.

Host: 00:23:42

One of the things, actually that you talk about in your book is how true identity.

Host: 00:23:47

And there's some speaking about the intersectionality.

Host: 00:23:52

Right.

Host: 00:23:52

But there's also talking about how identity transcends that intersectionality.

Host: 00:23:58

Right.

Host: 00:23:59

And I'd love to talk about both, so you can pick which one you want to talk about first.

Host: 00:24:05

But I think both of those topics are so first of all, not understood well.

Host: 00:24:10

And second of all, I'd just love to hear kind of your thoughts on them.

Host: 00:24:15

So how about if we go with intersectionality first?

Host: 00:24:18

Because I think that is a word that you, you know, you see, you maybe read in an article or whatever, but maybe don't completely understand what that means.

Host: 00:24:28

So if you could talk about that a little bit and then we'll go to the second part.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:24:32

Absolutely.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:24:33

So just to put it plain, my take on intersectionality is putting all of your parts together, your ancestry, your whatever makes you a minority or doesn't make you a minority, put your religion, put your zip code, put what you.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:24:57

Where you work, your education, no education, if you graduated agitated, whatever it is, and you put it all in the conversation.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:25:05

So, like when we were talking about my ancestral lineage, there is that I honor it, but then there's also how I see myself and need to function in this time that I'm given.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:25:19

It's like I'm putting that in conversation with what came before me.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:25:24

At first I thought I would need to try to erase it or superimpose something else on top of that, to be accepted or to exist.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:25:36

But now I realize it's a conversation.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:25:39

And I think that for other folks, if you are to look at what is inside of you that makes you diverse.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:25:49

And maybe look at your.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:25:51

Some of your parts on the outside, and there could be a difference between the inner and the outer.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:25:57

But if you were to put that in the conversation, rather than masking it with hair dye and antiseptics and sprays and braces and Botox and whatever it is, or Michael Kors or Gucci or whatever, but actually put it in a conversation, embrace the diversity living inside of us in order to embrace the diversity living outside of us.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:26:18

If we did that, that's like a full expression, in my view of the intersection.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:26:24

Intersectionality is trying to find a way for all of the disparate parts to work well, and it does make us who and what we are.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:26:36

I mean, I know a little about you.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:26:38

I know that I believe you are an American and you're a woman, and you are podcaster, and you have an audience that, you know our LGBTQ plus parents.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:26:52

I mean, just right there, those are some of your intersections.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:26:55

And perhaps those are among the parts that work very well because you've put them in a conversation and you're generating impact.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:27:05

And I think all of us have that.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:27:06

All of us have various points of ourselves that make up the intersection, and we're able to do it.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:27:14

But there are things that may need more work, and a part of what's in the book are those parts that need more work, a better conversation, better integration.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:27:25

So, yeah, so the intersectionality is trying to find the conversation with all of the various parts of our identities, if that makes sense.

Host: 00:27:34

It does, very much so.

Host: 00:27:36

It's that idea of and.

Host: 00:27:39

Right.

Host: 00:27:39

Instead of but.

Host: 00:27:41

Or like the, like, oh, I really hate that part.

Host: 00:27:44

So trying to, like, you know, stuff it down or cross it out or erase.

Host: 00:27:48

Erase it.

Host: 00:27:49

Like you said, it's the, like, embracing it and being like, well, that's part of who I am.

Host: 00:27:54

Right?

Host: 00:27:54

That's.

Host: 00:27:55

It's an.

Host: 00:27:55

And.

Host: 00:27:56

These are all ands.

Host: 00:27:57

So when you bring it all together, you can.

Host: 00:28:04

Right, you have.

Host: 00:28:05

You can be.

Host: 00:28:06

That's how you can be truly authentically in the world.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:28:11

That's right.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:28:12

So if.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:28:12

If we all had a proverbial calculator and we're typing up all of what makes us what we are, it's like we're separating it.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:28:23

We get all the computational elements that make us what we are, our age or weight, where we live, like I said, all these parts, we add it up, and then we start to see the equation.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:28:34

For some folks, they're able to do the math a lot easier than others.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:28:40

And most Folks struggle with math, so that should tell you something.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:28:44

Right, right there.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:28:45

So it's a work in progress.

Host: 00:28:48

It definitely is.

Host: 00:28:50

It definitely is.

Host: 00:28:50

Well, and I think there's definitely, I would say probably most people have pieces that have been stuffed down and shelved or whatever you want to say.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:29:00

Especially now, especially now when just as we are having more emergent voices and legislation that recognizes this and even ascending to a protected class in some ways, then you see the, the pendulum, you know, shift the other way.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:29:21

And, and so that, that makes it confusing.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:29:23

You know, a lot of hard fought victories, you know, marriage equality, all these things that really are just a handful of years old that quickly is almost always.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:29:37

Well, not always, but perhaps in jeopardy.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:29:40

Now there are some things that have happened federally to codify marriage, but in terms of other parts that grow out of that, you know, trans identity, there's no equality act.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:29:52

Just to think that some of those things are hanging in the balance after just getting to a point of more full humanity.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:30:00

It's kind of boggle because that's a really short amount of time.

Host: 00:30:04

It really is.

Host: 00:30:05

I mean, and I, it's a little dizzying.

Host: 00:30:09

I mean, I feel like it's like almost it was such a quick, like, snap back that.

Host: 00:30:16

Because there are still people who will say to me, well, it's so much better now.

Host: 00:30:19

And I'm like, well, but it's not, you know.

Host: 00:30:23

Yes.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:30:24

And in some ways, but it should be, we should be advancing and not struggling to get back to where we thought we had just graduated from, you know.

Host: 00:30:36

Right.

Host: 00:30:36

Well, and I think too, I mean, I'm sure you, you do the same where I, you know, following all the bills across the country that are being, you know, proposed and then argued and.

Host: 00:30:47

Right.

Host: 00:30:48

Like there are more every week and.

Host: 00:30:52

Right.

Host: 00:30:52

So to me, like, that's not okay.

Host: 00:30:58

That's where everybody, we have to all stay so vigilant and figure out what to do.

Host: 00:31:05

I feel like that's also a big thing and perhaps you can shed some light on that, our thoughts on what people can do.

Host: 00:31:11

Because I feel like especially a lot of, you know, I work with parents.

Host: 00:31:15

Right, A lot of parents, but her allies, right.

Host: 00:31:19

So allies a lot of times are like, well, how do I help?

Host: 00:32:20

Because I feel like I'm not, you know, there's that respectful piece of, I'm not part of the community, I'm a support person and I want to do something.

Host: 00:32:32

And I've had this, and we talked just briefly about this earlier, but you know, I do always love doing different things for Pride Month.

Host: 00:32:39

But this year I'm kind of approaching it.

Host: 00:32:42

I'm feeling very much like there's just such a battle right now.

Host: 00:32:46

And there's so much, like, the energy around it is like, I want to acknowledge and celebrate, but I'm also like, how can.

Host: 00:32:54

Like, we can't really stop to celebrate right now because there's so much that needs to be focused on and thought and people need to be educated on what is going on.

Host: 00:33:07

So, sorry, that was a total rant, but I'd love your thoughts on all of that.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:33:13

Sure.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:33:14

And just to finish up the last part about transcending the intersectionality, what I would add to that is, at the end of the day, and this does dovetail into what you just also brought up too, in terms of what one can do, you have to really be careful not to be consumed with the politics.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:33:40

Like, you don't want your identity to be lost in that.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:33:44

Yes, we need to be vigilant, and there's some political savvy that you need.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:33:49

And you need to know how to, I think, work through the mechanics, legislative mechanics, cultural mechanics, whatever it is, so that you can see certain bills change, certain spaces out in the community change.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:34:03

But recognize that as you're working through those mechanics, they're just that you don't want to get ground up in it or lost in that.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:34:13

Because it is a lot of work, as we're saying, to work on identity.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:34:17

You know, just nine months.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:34:18

It takes us, most of us, to be born.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:34:21

We have some preemies, they come a little earlier, so they're accelerated.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:34:25

But it takes a lifetime, right.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:34:28

To draw the full person out of the baby, to draw the full woman out of when you were the infant, the full non binary, trans, transracial person.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:34:39

That's me out of this.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:34:40

I mean, it takes a lifetime for that.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:34:42

So it's delicate.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:34:44

So it's this balance of having political savvy, but also personal allegiance to your own identity.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:34:50

Meaning that you don't have to act stereotypically or act a certain way just because you may be a part of the Alphabet community, as some may try to just, you know, pejoratively say, you can.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:35:03

You can be an original still, you can defy the stereotype.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:35:09

You know, if you're gay guy and you really like Cheetos and steak and you.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:35:15

And you like to hunt, you can still be gay.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:35:18

You don't all of a sudden have to be in the musicals or what have you, just because you think that's politically expedient or whatever.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:35:26

It Is so it's like, as you're working with the politics, that's why I say don't.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:35:30

Don't let that eclipse you.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:35:32

Like, like still be you.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:35:33

Now, if you do, like the musicals, that's fine too.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:35:35

I graduated from an art school.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:35:36

That's fine.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:35:37

But I know that there's more plurality in that.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:35:39

So I offer that when it comes to what people can do, I still think even if you're not in the community, that that's the thing.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:35:48

Meaning you may not be the L, the G, the B or the T, but if you're an ally, then you are still a part of the community.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:35:55

So.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:35:56

So if you're an ally and think, well, I'm not really in the community, I think that's right there almost speaking to a kind of rift in a way that it's already starting a little bit, even though that I'm sure it's unintended, but I think that's already starting with a little bit of a deficit.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:36:13

And like, oh, that's.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:36:15

That's someone else.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:36:17

If you're an ally for something, I think you're just as much, you know, a part of.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:36:21

Of the community, even if you're not the L to G to be, you know, or.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:36:26

Or the T.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:36:26

So maybe that's some headspace to get in and that might make a difference.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:36:33

Fundamentally, I think another part of it is what are your other intersections?

Ronnie Gladden: 00:36:39

So beyond being just an ally, what else are you that you can leverage?

Ronnie Gladden: 00:36:45

You know, what other goods do you have?

Ronnie Gladden: 00:36:46

And because that's also probably a part of the answer in terms of whatever else that you are that maybe is hiding behind the cloak of just ally.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:36:59

So if you are this person that's at 4h, or you are this person that's also in the church, or you are this person that's working someplace in an institution, that itself is probably a pathway to where maybe there's something you can leverage out of those places that might help to inform your ally, ship your ally, walk so that then it's not just siloed when you're in a support group.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:37:26

And I'm just the ally here.

Host: 00:37:29

Right.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:37:30

You see what I mean?

Ronnie Gladden: 00:37:30

So I.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:37:31

So.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:37:32

So it goes back to embracing what you are, your intersections.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:37:36

Even if you're not gay or lesbian or bi or trans or pansexual or sapiosexual, whatever it is, you can be CIS hetero and still have plenty of intersections.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:37:47

Understanding that doing that work and that.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:37:52

That probably would offer some more, you know, insights.

Host: 00:37:56

Absolutely.

Host: 00:37:57

Wow.

Host: 00:37:59

Everyone that makes Sense.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:38:00

I know we kind of.

Host: 00:38:01

It totally does.

Host: 00:38:02

No, I'm literally blown away because I have.

Host: 00:38:05

I mean, so many times have been told, either told, told or read to be very careful as an ally, to not.

Host: 00:38:17

Like, you are an ally.

Host: 00:38:18

Like, you're over here.

Host: 00:38:20

Right.

Host: 00:38:20

You're not part of.

Host: 00:38:23

And so I've always kind of envisioned, like, what I do is like a, like, you know, support.

Host: 00:38:29

Like, I am here to, like, advocate.

Host: 00:38:32

Right.

Host: 00:38:33

And to hold and to learn and, you know, all of these things.

Host: 00:38:38

So I.

Host: 00:38:38

That.

Host: 00:38:39

I love that perspective because I think there is definitely, like this piece of me that's like, clearly there's a reason why I'm such a fighter.

Host: 00:38:46

Right.

Host: 00:38:47

For everyone in the community.

Host: 00:38:50

So I love that and I hope that everybody listening is really taking.

Host: 00:38:54

You might have to stop and rewind and listen to that again because that was really powerful and really just so thought provoking.

Host: 00:39:03

Holy cow.

Host: 00:39:04

I'm just like a little bit set.

Host: 00:39:07

You really, like, threw me off my feet a little bit there.

Host: 00:39:09

So.

Host: 00:39:09

Thank you.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:39:10

You need.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:39:11

You need some tea too.

Host: 00:39:12

I do.

Host: 00:39:14

I need some peach tranquility tea.

Host: 00:39:16

I can't wait.

Host: 00:39:16

I'm gonna go right after this and get my.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:39:19

You should go get some.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:39:20

Yeah.

Host: 00:39:21

And every time I drink it, I'll be like, oh, thank you for like a million billion things.

Host: 00:39:27

Oh, my gosh.

Host: 00:39:28

Thank you.

Host: 00:39:29

Holy cow.

Host: 00:39:30

And I also, just.

Host: 00:39:32

The other thing that I.

Host: 00:39:33

That you just said, which I think is so powerful and just helpful is stopping and thinking because I think we do get so, like, wound, right?

Host: 00:39:44

Like, oh, my gosh, this, like, hair's on fire.

Host: 00:39:47

Freaking out and kind of taking that step back and being like, okay, I am well equipped in these ways to make a difference to.

Host: 00:39:58

And it doesn't have to be like a world changing difference.

Host: 00:40:01

It can be a conversation with one person.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:40:02

Exactly.

Host: 00:40:03

Right?

Ronnie Gladden: 00:40:04

Yeah.

Host: 00:40:05

And that is what is so important.

Host: 00:40:08

And really, like you said leveraging just who you are already.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:40:14

Right.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:40:15

Yeah.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:40:16

Because I think you might feel an obligation if you're just an ally.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:40:20

Like, you have to work to construct an identity all around that you know, and you are already a lived person and a person with experiences.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:40:34

And I could see how that could be off putting to a lot of folks.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:40:37

It's like, this is a whole other bucket.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:40:39

And now I've got to fill this up.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:40:41

And it's like, well, no, I mean, you already have a life and draw from that and use that.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:40:48

And that probably would be more inviting.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:40:51

At the same time, what I get is, you know, there are still certain sensitivities and sensibilities to be mindful of, you know, and we're all learning with that.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:41:03

And so maybe some people may feel like there are parts of them that are inelegant or that needs a little bit more refining.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:41:10

I mean, we all.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:41:11

We all have that, and maybe that's a part of it as well.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:41:14

So, you know, giving.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:41:15

Giving some grace and recognizing that, you know, there are folks that are trying and they're trying their best, obviously, for those who aren't, because you have plenty of trolls out there.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:41:22

They know full well what they're doing.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:41:25

They're pushing buttons that they're.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:41:27

They're misgendering people.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:41:29

They're doing all the things that we don't celebrate, that we don't want done.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:41:33

I'm not talking about that.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:41:34

But it's like, you know, maybe you aren't versed in all the vocabulary or all of, you know, in terms of acknowledging all the language that you're supposed to have when it comes to interacting with someone, but you can get there.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:41:50

So you give a little grace and you work towards that.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:41:54

So we're not always here to be right.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:41:56

We're here to get it right.

Host: 00:41:58

That's right.

Host: 00:41:59

That's right.

Host: 00:41:59

Well, and I think it's always.

Host: 00:42:01

So it's going to be messy, right?

Host: 00:42:04

I mean, I say that all the time.

Host: 00:42:06

It's going to be messy.

Host: 00:42:07

So just embrace that.

Host: 00:42:09

Know that you're going to make mistakes.

Host: 00:42:11

But it's so much better to make the mistake while trying than be too afraid to try at all.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:42:17

Exactly.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:42:19

And then go back, and then we're where we are now, having to work to reclaim some of the victories that.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:42:27

That were won.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:42:28

And it's like, well, not, not.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:42:30

Not fully, not, not completely.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:42:32

Now you have something else, something else that's there.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:42:36

So I think the book will point to that just as much as to my own story.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:42:42

Because in the book, you know, there are questions that are, for those who read it to reflect on their identity.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:42:49

There's an identity wheel that's in there.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:42:52

There's questions through an academic lens, through a pop cultural lens, through the lens of a book club.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:43:00

There's different angles.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:43:01

One can do that.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:43:02

One can begin writing letters to themselves, just like you see that there are letters that are in the book between the white girl, between the black guy and all that.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:43:13

So, yeah, it's.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:43:14

It's.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:43:14

It's interactive in the book, and it's interactive in the way we're talking about it, through the podcast.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:43:19

Interactive in life.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:43:20

So we all Have a lot of work to do, apparently.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:43:24

I guess.

Host: 00:43:24

We do.

Host: 00:43:25

We do.

Host: 00:43:26

Well, you know, it's the whole idea of, you know, once you stop growing, what happens?

Host: 00:43:31

We don't want that.

Host: 00:43:32

I don't want that option.

Host: 00:43:34

So I'd like to forever be learning and growing for as long as possible.

Host: 00:43:40

And I'm so glad that you circled back to the book, because I just cannot highly recommend it highly enough.

Host: 00:43:50

And I just want everyone to go buy it and read it, because it's not just a read.

Host: 00:43:55

Right.

Host: 00:43:56

Like you just said, it is interactive, and it will challenge you to really think and examine who you are in this world.

Host: 00:44:07

And I love that and to.

Host: 00:44:09

And to love that person for all of the pieces, all of the ends.

Host: 00:44:14

So I'm just so grateful that you wrote this.

Host: 00:44:17

And 15 plus year journey.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:44:23

I would never have thought.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:44:26

Would never thought.

Host: 00:44:28

Right.

Host: 00:44:30

Well, you know, I think some of the most beautiful things come out of what we never would have thought.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:44:38

Yeah.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:44:39

Yeah, that's true.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:44:41

Yeah.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:44:41

I just.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:44:43

Yeah.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:44:43

If you.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:44:44

You go with it, you let yourself be open and go with it.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:44:47

Yeah.

Host: 00:44:47

Right.

Host: 00:44:48

Oh, my goodness gracious.

Host: 00:44:50

Yes.

Host: 00:44:50

And yes.

Host: 00:44:52

Oh, and yes.

Host: 00:44:55

Well, before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add or share?

Ronnie Gladden: 00:45:04

Wow.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:45:06

I like what we were just saying in terms of being open and giving grace as we work to understand each other better and as we work to be more authentic and vulnerable.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:45:22

Only when the time is right, of course.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:45:24

Only when you've grown to that point.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:45:26

Only when, you know, you think it makes sense.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:45:29

I mean, don't put yourself in danger.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:45:31

You know, maybe talk with a mental health professional, have some guidance.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:45:35

But, yeah, I think being open is a good thing.

Host: 00:45:42

Is a good thing, yes.

Host: 00:45:45

I am so grateful you've been here today with me, and I'm just, like I said at the beginning, I was so looking forward to our conversation.

Host: 00:45:54

And thank you so much for being here.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:45:57

Thank you.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:45:58

Oh, my pleasure.

Ronnie Gladden: 00:45:59

My pleasure.

Heather Hester: 00:46:02

Thanks so much for joining me today.

Heather Hester: 00:46:05

If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful.

Heather Hester: 00:46:09

For a rating or review, click on the link in the show notes or go to my website, chrysalismama.com to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.

Heather Hester: 00:46:25

Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.

Heather Hester: 00:46:30

And remember to just breathe until.

Heather Hester: 00:46:35

Until next time.