Philip brings on Jared Stonefield, who has a deep knowledge of the Middle-earth lore, to discuss ROP episode 5. This episode begins to ramp things up with Numenor, build on the relationship between Celebrimbor and Annatar, and show the beginnings of a dwarven ring's affect on King Durin III. This is a wholesome analysis on the Rings of Power.
#lotr #lordoftherings #amazonprimevideo #middleearth #lore #dwarvenring #season2 #numenor #fallofnumenor #annatar
Research Links:
00:00 Introduction
01:22 Jared's First Encounter with Tolkien's Lore
03:07 Delving into the Dwarven Storyline, the 7, and Narvi
06:22 Timeline Relevance Sauron's Corruption of Dwarven Rings
12:52 Sore on the Balrog Out of Order
14:58 Elven Storyline and Making of the 9
16:05 Annatar's Relationship with Celebrimbor
19:29 Smith Brotherhood and Lesser Rings
23:46 The Rings of Power Effects on Varying Races
25:02 Celebrimbor's Faith in Men...
26:39 Clash of Numenor
28:48 The Lore Behind the Faithful and the Kingsmen
33:20 What Leads to the Fall of Numenor
38:24 ROP Tries to Explain Everything
41:17 The Good and the Bad
46:01 Conclusion
There are quite a few things to enjoy about the fifth episode
2
:of The Rings of Power Season two.
3
:The seven rings are given to the dwarves.
4
:The faithful and the kinsmen
really clash for the first time.
5
:And Annatar slash Sauron begins
his manipulation of Celebrimbor.
6
:This part of the Numenorian storyline
picks up the pace for what leads
7
:to the full of Numenor and Sauron's
evil devices make themselves
8
:prevalent in creating the rings.
9
:As usual, there are lore accuracies, and
inaccuracies, and some cheesy moments.
10
:I'll be joined by Jared Stonefield,
who is a lifelong Tolkien fan,
11
:and he'll contribute with his deep
knowledge of the Middle-earth lore.
12
:With that let's dive right in.
13
:Philip Intro: Welcome, my lords, to
the White City, where you will learn
14
:more about Middle-earth and discover
differences and similarities between
15
:the Rings of Power show and Tolkien's
books, and whether Amazon's show,
16
:episode by episode, is worth watching.
17
:I'm Philip Dudt your host, and I'll
be joined by Matt Vandevort and
18
:Mark Schaeffer I hope you enjoy.
19
:Philip: Hey everybody!
20
:Thanks for tuning into
the white city podcast.
21
:Today I have with me Jared Stonefield
my guest, and we're going to
22
:be talking about the rings of
power season two, episode five.
23
:Philip (2): Just to start
us out, Jared, what got you
24
:interested in Lord of the Rings?
25
:For instance, like, did you watch the
trilogy first and then read the books or
26
:like read the books and watch the trilogy?
27
:That kind of a thing?
28
:yeah.
29
:Jared: So I actually don't remember the
first time ever being exposed to Tolkien.
30
:That's how long it's been in my life.
31
:I know at some point I watched the
32
:trilogy for the first time,
but I just don't remember.
33
:I just, we grew up
34
:watching those so often in my
family household that, I think
35
:I have those memorized to an
insane amount at this point.
36
:And then after, after the movies,
I got right into, The Silmarillion.
37
:I got, you know, into The Hobbit
and The Lord of the Rings books.
38
:And I, yeah.
39
:They're some of my
favorite books of all time.
40
:Philip: Yeah.
41
:Cool.
42
:Yeah, it's, it's definitely something
I've gotten into since, since, well,
43
:after watching the movies, Similarly,
I was very young whenever they came
44
:out, but that's, that's kind of where
it started, and we'd always watch
45
:them growing up, like, all the time.
46
:Figure it, like, out, memorize
lines and requoting, all that kind
47
:of stuff, so yeah, definitely.
48
:That's something where we started and
then I just got into the books after that.
49
:Yeah, so for this episode, I believe
we got three different storylines that
50
:we're going with So we got dwarves,
we have elves, we have Numenor.
51
:And typically what we do with the
podcast, what we've been doing is
52
:just going that kind of by storyline.
53
:Cause I know sometimes it's, it's tough
to still like go with like, Oh, this
54
:happened and then this happened and
then this happened, sometimes it's easy
55
:just to think about the Dwarves and
what happened to them and, you know,
56
:for the rest of the storylines as well.
57
:So, we just like, uh, So I can just give a
quick kind of breakdown with the Dwarves.
58
:You've got the, the King of Moria.
59
:I guess he gets the Seven.
60
:The Seven Rings in the beginning there.
61
:They don't show them giving
it to him, which I thought
62
:it was a little bit too bad.
63
:I kind of, like, would have liked to
see at least some, like, transaction
64
:there, but, so we saw him, with the
rings, kind of moving to him, using the
65
:ring to figure out where, like, they
should dig to get the light to come
66
:through the mountain, and Disa isn't too
happy about that because he's like, My
67
:singing should be like, what we're doing
for this, not this like, crazy ring.
68
:And then from that moves into the
younger Durin basically kind of wondering
69
:if this ring is even like for good.
70
:He goes back to Celebrimbor, I
do believe if I remember then..
71
:anything else on that one?
72
:You remember that I'm missing?
73
:Jared: Yeah, so I think the only thing
that's like, probably missing is, um,
74
:Durin is starting to notice that his
father's acting a little odd ever since
75
:he put that ring on, and, um, the Delve
Master of Khazad-dûm, Narvi, he's also
76
:like, him and Durin the Younger are
like, Alright, what's going on here?
77
:Cause this is kinda going a little insane.
78
:Philip: Mm Hmm.
79
:So, that is one point that we can touch
on there about, Narvi is, so I believe
80
:he is a lore character and and he is,
and he did work with Celebrimbor, right,
81
:to build the, the Moria door right,
And that's what they showed in that
82
:episode, right?
83
:So, is that, is that what you're saying?
84
:Like, was that pretty lore accurate
85
:then?
86
:Like that whole, that whole thing?
87
:Or,
88
:Jared: Yeah, so, Narvi isn't mentioned
too much in Tolkien's lore, but
89
:it is said that he was the one
who, inscribed upon the doors, and
90
:Celebrimbor also helped design them.
91
:They were the ones who created
the doors hand in hand together.
92
:That's kind of all we really know.
93
:We know that he was a really great dwarven
craftsmith, but we don't really get to
94
:know too, too much else, so The Rings
of Power kind of, expands on that by
95
:making him what's called the Delvemaster
of khazad Dum, is the title I think
96
:I heard them give to him a few times.
97
:Philip: Yeah, they don't really give
him, too much time, necessarily, but
98
:the, they're, you're saying that.
99
:they're digging more into like, by
giving him the name, Delvemaster,
100
:that's kind of giving him more
of a role to play in the story.
101
:Which is kind of cool, kind of cool to
see like, different characters who, you
102
:know, you don't see come up a lot from
the lore, given a little bit more time, in
103
:The Rings of Power, but also we can talk
about some more too of like, maybe they
104
:don't give as much time as, they should.
105
:It'd be be kind of more interesting if
they would give more time to those things.
106
:Jared: Yeah, I think Narvi's
a great example of that.
107
:I mean, he's only mentioned, I think,
like, in like two sentences total
108
:throughout the entire bit of lore, but
obviously he plays, like, a pretty big
109
:part, you know, he's one of the best
dwarven craftsmiths, and he's working
110
:with elves, which is, like, something
that rarely happens, and I think that
111
:just goes a lot to say about, like, how
amazing of a writer Tolkien is, is that
112
:he can just have one single sentence that,
another, storyteller can just expand on
113
:and create, like, a whole . plot line
out of, because he just has, Tolkien just
114
:has so much rich detail in what he writes.
115
:Philip: Right.
116
:Yeah.
117
:So, going on some to the, uh,
to the ring, and how that's
118
:affecting the king of Moria there.
119
:So it's it's interesting, is in a
previous episode, we did mention
120
:about how that ring, I believe that
the king had was like, always like
121
:kind of questioned about whether...
122
:The dwarves kind of said, oh, this may
not actually be affected by Sauron.
123
:I don't know if you remember that at all.
124
:So I, I don't know if that's this exact
situation with this king that they, that
125
:they would be pulling from, but, I guess
that was, that was, interesting to think
126
:about that and it was, I mean, of course,
all, all like, all the dwarf rings.
127
:Would be corrupted by Sauron.
128
:Like that's kind of what would
be assumed, in the least, but
129
:Jared: Yeah, so, um, it's really
interesting, and I think you guys
130
:talked about it in the episode, of your
podcast when you were talking about
131
:the first three episodes of season two.
132
:You talked about this a bit, where,
I mean, I can understand, I can,
133
:I kind of see why the show writers
did it, but they changed the
134
:order of the making of the rings.
135
:And I can kind of understand why they
were wanting to do that, but I think it
136
:did create like a lot of problems that
they now have to kind of work around.
137
:But yeah, what's really interesting
is that the seven, once they got
138
:into the Dwarves hands, depending
upon, because Tolkien had two
139
:conflicting accounts about this.
140
:In one version, the elven rings,
sorry, the seven rings for the
141
:dwarves were given to Durin III
by the elven smiths of Eregion.
142
:Which is basically what happens
in this episode, that actually is
143
:something that's mentioned in the
appendices of Lord of the Rings.
144
:But it also says that even though
the elven smiths gave that ring to
145
:Durin III, it doubtless had Sauron's
evil power on it since he aided
146
:in the forging of all the seven.
147
:And it's interesting that they are
now showing the harmful effects of
148
:the ring already on the dwarves.
149
:'Cause that wasn't really something
that happened in the lore until
150
:after Sauron created the one ring
after he kind of like revealed
151
:that he had been posing as Annatar.
152
:So they're kind of bringing that
corruption forward a bit and that's
153
:something that we're seeing already.
154
:Which isn't like necessarily
the worst thing in my opinion.
155
:I mean, it's making for very
interesting television, but it's
156
:it's just like the the order of the
lore being switched up as a little
157
:Philip: right.
158
:That's uh, that's something definitely
that, um, like now that we've
159
:mentioned in our podcast before too.
160
:So the changing of the order of the
rings and then, um, what was the other
161
:thing that you mentioned too, there?
162
:There was something else you
were just talking about too, I
163
:just, I was gonna ask a question
164
:Jared: Oh yeah, you're good.
165
:So yeah, there's there's two different
versions there's the version where the
166
:elven smiths give Durin III the ring,
but there actually is also another
167
:version in which it's never really made
clear if the Seven Rings were meant
168
:for elves or for Dwarves originally.
169
:Philip: Oh okay, yeah, interesting.
170
:Okay.
171
:Jared: So, that's something that like is
brought up in, um, The Unfinished Tales.
172
:Where the elven smiths create the Seven
and the Nine as sets, and it's kind of
173
:inferred that they're meant for Elves,
and then Sauron, once he, like, reveals
174
:his betrayal, he goes to Celebrimbor, Lord
Celebrimbor in Eregion, and he basically,
175
:like, tortures him to find out where the
seven are, and the nine, and he takes
176
:them, and then, the Silmarillion continues
the story by saying that Sauron then dealt
177
:the rings out to the other peoples of
Middle earth, hoping thus to bring under
178
:his sway all those that desired secret
power beyond the measure of their kind.
179
:Seven rings he gave to the dwarves,
but to the men he gave nine.
180
:Philip: Yeah, yeah, that's cool.
181
:So I guess, yeah, it's interesting
that Sauron wouldn't have revealed
182
:himself until uh, until after
he put the rings out there.
183
:But you can kind of, I can kind
of see how that would be more to
184
:his advantage because now you have
Durin the Younger being like, oh
185
:hey, like what's up with this?
186
:I gotta go back and like figure
out like what the, what the
187
:elves are doing, you know?
188
:So It makes sense for like, Sauron
wanting to just reveal himself at the
189
:time that he would want to reveal himself.
190
:Jared: Yeah.
191
:I will say, like, even though, I was
a little surprised that they were
192
:introducing the corruption of the seven
so early, I was really, impressed with
193
:how they're doing it, because how they're
doing it is matching up really well, I
194
:think, with, what Tolkien wrote about the
effects that the seven dwarf rings had
195
:on the dwarf lords.
196
:I, I've always loved the dwarves.
197
:I'm a huge dwarf nerd and, uh, I've
been waiting to see the seven rings
198
:actually, like, get a time to shine
in this story, ever since they
199
:announced that this show was happening.
200
:So, it's really cool, even though,
like, the timeline is definitely a
201
:little wonky, it's really cool to
see parts of the lore actually being
202
:expanded, especially in this episode.
203
:Philip: Yeah Well it's just like,
one thing too is, I hope they
204
:also, whenever like, the rings go
to other dwarves eventually, that
205
:they also give them some storyline.
206
:Because I think that in the
show, like they haven't really
207
:expanded on a whole lot.
208
:So, it's like, even with just, like, them,
like, creating the rings and giving them
209
:to the dwarves, I feel like oh, okay, all
of a sudden, like, first episode, like,
210
:at the beginning, they gave it to them.
211
:I know.
212
:It's not a huge thing, I guess, but it
just kind of, it just a little bugged me.
213
:In a way,
214
:Jared: Yeah, I I totally
get what you mean.
215
:Like, I feel like, if they
don't show how the other Dwarf
216
:lords are affected by rings.
217
:I think it's gonna be a bit of like
wasted potential, because there's like
218
:some really really good stuff there.
219
:Especially that could like, make
great stories for later seasons.
220
:Because Tolkien mentions that There
are four dwarven kingdoms in the
221
:lands of Rhun, which obviously
the show is exploring right now.
222
:Um There are four dwarven kingdoms
out in the east, and a certain
223
:number of them, we don't, we know
that four dwarf rings in the future
224
:at some point are lost to dragons.
225
:and I feel like, I mean, come
on, a chance to have a dragon
226
:in the Rings of Power TV show.
227
:I feel like if you're not going to take
advantage of that, what are you doing?
228
:Philip: No, yeah, that's a good point.
229
:That's a good point.
230
:Definitely So like just thinking
about like this Dwarven storyline
231
:anything come up that you're thinking
this wasn't really lore accurate.
232
:Jared: Yeah, the one thing that, um,
besides the whole thing with like
233
:the timeline of how everything was
happening, the one thing that I was
234
:a little tepid about was the idea of
the balrog being introduced so early.
235
:I mean, they've kind of shown shots of
the Balrog in the trailer and then of
236
:course in this episode Disa goes down to a
cavern and she stumbles upon some sort of
237
:creature that is growling in the darkness.
238
:And it's implied that it's the balrog.
239
:The balrog isn't really due to appear
til the third age in the year:
240
:And actually he slays Durin VI, the
king of Moria at that time, and that's
241
:when the kingdom falls into darkness.
242
:So, I'm kind of wondering if, because I
know we've seen glimpses of the balrog
243
:in the trailer, I'm kind of wondering if
they're gonna introduce the balrog this
244
:early, like as soon as they get the ring,
suddenly Moria falls into darkness, or, I
245
:don't really know how they're gonna handle
that, I thought that was interesting that
246
:they were bringing the balrog in so early.
247
:Philip: Yeah, that is interesting.
248
:Yeah, cuz it definitely seems
like the like the whole realm
249
:of Moria is gonna continue on
for like more longer than this.
250
:I don't know exactly when you know, the,
uh, the fellowship, you know, arrives
251
:in Moria and like the this time span
between that and when it actually fell.
252
:um, yeah, it just seemed
like, I don't know.
253
:I don't know.
254
:how long that was, but it seemed
it was a lot longer that it went
255
:on than, than back back then.
256
:So..
257
:Jared: Yeah, it's, it's, if I remember
correctly, it's like, from where the
258
:show is now, about a thousand plus
years in the future, then it falls.
259
:And then 2, 000 years after that
is when the Fellowship enters, and
260
:then when Gandalf fights the Balrog.
261
:The Balrog is kind of just like,
chilling in an abandoned Khazad
262
:dum for about 2, 000 years.
263
:Philip: Oh wow.
264
:Okay.
265
:But like, like Gandalf knows that and
266
:Jared: hmm.
267
:Yep.
268
:Philip: that.
269
:No yeah.
270
:That's cool, that's cool.
271
:Alright, so let's move
on to the elves now.
272
:So, we got, basically the whole time,
we have Halbrand, uh, working with
273
:Celebrimbor to make the, make rings.
274
:Celebrimbor's kinda hesitant to make more.
275
:Not really sure why he's hesitant,
except that, like, he just, Maybe just
276
:felt like there wasn't something right
about 'em about the seven they made.
277
:And he was like, no,
there's no more rings.
278
:We're going to do like, we've done enough.
279
:Like, you know, we got three and we've
also got the seven, but then, you know,
280
:Annatar's just trying to like influence
him to, to make the nine for men.
281
:And eventually, eventually
Celebrimbor is convinced.
282
:And that's, that's kind of the
general way it starts going.
283
:You've got the girl too, who.
284
:Puts on a ring and like goes
into the, um, to the realm, the
285
:Jared: The unseen world.
286
:Philip: Unseen world.
287
:Yes.
288
:Right.
289
:Yes.
290
:Unseen world.
291
:So, um, yeah, Any, uh,
any thoughts on that..
292
:Jared: Yeah, I had a lot of thoughts
that I was, like, really enjoying
293
:with this particular plotline.
294
:I think it's shaping up to be my
favorite of the season's so far.
295
:I think that while, like, the idea
of the seven already corrupting the
296
:dwarves isn't necessarily accurate,
Sauron's manipulation of Celebrimbor
297
:in this episode specifically I
think is done really well, and it's
298
:done, like, in the vein of the lore.
299
:Cause the obviously Celebrimbor in,
like, the lore, he never had reservations
300
:about making the 9 or the 7, unlike
this show, but I do like how, Annatar,
301
:Sauron, whichever you want to call
him, is, so masterful in making it
302
:all turn back on Celebrimbor and
making it look like it's his fault.
303
:I thought that was just like kind
of brutal where he was just like,
304
:oh you lied to your high king.
305
:How can you do this?
306
:You infected the process.
307
:Now we have to make the nine to
like kind of achieve balance.
308
:I think that ties in pretty well with
like this one quote from Unfinished Tales
309
:that um says " Now, Celebrimbor was not
corrupted in heart or faith, but he had
310
:accepted Sauron as what he posed to be."
311
:We don't get too many clues as to
like, Celebrimbor's personality,
312
:really, through the lore.
313
:cause, It's from the Silmarillion, so
it's more told like a myth than it is
314
:like a book, like a standard fantasy
book as we would think of it nowadays.
315
:But like, I feel like lines like that show
that like, Celebrimbor really does care.
316
:I mean, you know, he's definitely
prideful, but he cares a lot, and
317
:Sauron is just twisting the knife in
at this point, which I thought just
318
:like, made it really compelling.
319
:Philip: Yeah.
320
:Yeah.
321
:How do you feel about like just
Celeborn's like portrayal in the show?
322
:You know, they kind of give him..
323
:Another thing we've talked about
too, is just like how there are
324
:like thing, different skills or
like characteristics that can be.
325
:Uh, can come together in Tolkien's world,
and they don't have to be separate.
326
:Like, Celebrimbor is a smith, but like
in the lore, he's also like powerful
327
:in other ways, a good fighter, but they
seem to give Celebrimbor maybe this sense
328
:of like being Like weaker in that area.
329
:Jared: Yeah, that's something
that's really interesting.
330
:Because you're right, he is, um, at
one point in the lore it says that,
331
:Whenever Sauron comes up to him and
demands the seven and the nine and the
332
:three, Celebrimbor faces him down with
a sword at the entrance to the forge.
333
:I'd be interested to see if that
actually happens in the show because
334
:it just it doesn't seem to Celebrimbor
in the show so far doesn't seem
335
:to be any sort of like warrior.
336
:He seems to be more of just like,
you know, like the nobility lord
337
:kind of deal um, but who also is
an extremely gifted blacksmith.
338
:we don't really see much of
like the warrior kind of thing.
339
:So i'm interested to see if
they're gonna kind of do that.
340
:Maybe like I don't know in the
finale or something like have
341
:Celebrimbor whip out a sword.
342
:I'd be interested to see
what's gonna happen with that.
343
:Philip: Yeah.
344
:Yeah, because, but then it
would be odd, like odd a
345
:Jared: Yeah, it Would be,
like, a little random.
346
:Philip: Yeah, to flip it and,
you know, have him all of a
347
:sudden start using a sword, but.
348
:But Yeah, no, that would make
definitely make for a better,
349
:better, uh, kind of show down there.
350
:Jared: Yeah, it would be, it's,
it definitely has drama, like,
351
:just built in there already.
352
:Yeah.
353
:One other thing that I wanted to touch
on that you talked about, was the girl
354
:smith, the one with the blonde hair,
they name her Mirdania in the show,
355
:and they have her testing a ring, and
I was actually really happy that they
356
:included this, because in addition to
the three, the seven, and the nine,
357
:there was a large number of lesser
rings that were made during this time.
358
:And Gandalf explains this to Frodo
briefly in, Fellowship of the Ring.
359
:He says, "In Eregion long ago
many elven rings were made, magic
360
:rings as you call them and they
were of course of various kinds.
361
:Some more potent and some less.
362
:The lesser rings were only essays in the
craft before it was full grown, and to
363
:the elven smiths they were but trifles yet
still to my mind dangerous for mortals."
364
:So I was actually really happy
we got to see some of the lesser
365
:rings, cause again, with like the,
way they switched up the order of
366
:everything by making the three first.
367
:They didn't have the lesser
rings beforehand so I was like,
368
:oh man, I guess we're gonna
kind of miss out on seeing that.
369
:But then they actually were, they were
able to like, kind of sneak it into this
370
:episode, which I thought was pretty cool.
371
:Uh, Just also, the little nod to
like, whenever Frodo enters the unseen
372
:world in the Peter Jackson film that
has like all that mist, that kind of
373
:like, greyed out kind of surroundings.
374
:They kind of allude to that in this
show, which I thought was a pretty
375
:neat kind of nod to those films.
376
:Philip: Right.
377
:Yeah.
378
:That was, uh, I feel like
that was an accurate portrayal
379
:of what was happening there.
380
:And honestly, actually thinking about
that, there are, there are other times
381
:when it has seemed like they're pushing a
little too hard to like connect with the
382
:films, but like, yeah, that scene there
definitely seemed that there were just,
383
:hey, this is just like the way things are.
384
:With like the unseen world and yeah,
this is what happens you put on the ring.
385
:Yeah, but that was that was good.
386
:Yeah,
387
:Jared: But that also like, interestingly
enough, that kind of goes into what I
388
:wanted to talk about a bit with like, some
of the lore inaccuracy of that plotline.
389
:There wasn't too much that was like,
inaccurate per se beyond what we talked
390
:about, but, the smiths that Celebrimbor
is with in the workshop that we see
391
:throughout the entire episode, in The
Silmarillion and The Unfinished Tales,
392
:they're called the Gwaith-i-Mirdain,
and they are a secret, like, society
393
:or brotherhood that Celebrimbor has
formed that's very powerful in Eregion.
394
:And I think, so the one, the
girl smith, her name is Mirdania.
395
:Which I think is like the writers trying
to allude or nod to the idea of the
396
:Gwaith-i-Mirdain, Because I don't think
they actually have the rights to say
397
:the words Gwaith-i-Mirdain in the show.
398
:There's like a whole bunch of
like, you know, discrepancies with
399
:what they can and can't mention.
400
:So I think it was, it was
interesting just seeing how they
401
:were trying to like dance around it
by having Mirdani as a character.
402
:She's kind of like the distilled version
of that brotherhood so that you can kind
403
:of see she's like an audience surrogate.
404
:You can kind of like see the
corruption of Celebrimbor and like
405
:the seduction of Sauron as Annatar.
406
:So I like I get why they did it but
like her character and the society
407
:that she belongs to are definitely a
bit different in the original writing.
408
:Philip: Okay, that's interesting.
409
:I did I didn't know about the society.
410
:So That's a, that's a cool
part to the, to the story then.
411
:But, I don't, but as you were
saying, like, would they be
412
:able to have that in the show?
413
:Jared: Yeah, I don't know.
414
:No, it's it's so weird because
I I've heard a few industry
415
:insiders talk about this.
416
:And even they aren't exactly sure
what they do and don't have rights to.
417
:There's rumors that they had to get
rights to mention a few characters in
418
:this season that they didn't have before.
419
:They're like constantly being in like a
dialogue with the Tolkien Estate about
420
:what they can and can't mention, which
I can just imagine would be like super
421
:super frustrating if I was a writer.
422
:I would just be like, let me mention some
characters from the Silmarillion, dang it.
423
:Philip: Yes.
424
:Yes.
425
:Yeah.
426
:No, I imagine it does impede like
how they're telling the story and the
427
:more loops they have to jump through.
428
:Which a lot of people probably don't
know because they're not seeing like
429
:behind the scenes and all, but yeah.
430
:So that's, that's neat about
the, that lesser ring coming up.
431
:I thought that was interesting that
it made her disappear because I guess
432
:that's another thing is that depending
on like how powerful the being is,
433
:the ring may not turn you invisible.
434
:Is that, is that, kind of..
435
:Jared: Yeah, so that's an
interesting thing I was actually
436
:just, like, reading up on today.
437
:Because I had, like, a few
questions about that, too.
438
:From what I understand, rings
are much more likely to make men
439
:invisible, not necessarily elves.
440
:Um, so I think that they were
just trying to show that these
441
:rings can turn people invisible.
442
:I don't know if that's
necessarily lore accurate.
443
:Because, I mean, obviously, elves being
able to see into the Unseen World,
444
:that definitely is a thing, and also,
whenever Frodo puts the One Ring on,
445
:he Gandalf says he steps halfway into
the Wraith World, or the Unseen World.
446
:So, there's a precedent for that,
but, like, having her be invisible?
447
:I think it's, like, a grey area, kind of?
448
:I'm not exactly sure about that.
449
:Philip: Yeah.
450
:The elves just being more powerful
in a lot of different ways than men.
451
:Jared: Yeah.
452
:Philip: Yeah, it's interesting,
uh, with Calebrimbor's
453
:line, in there, I know I had to I
had to put it down there, just about,
454
:like, We cannot give the rings to men,
and him just like, I guess, trying to
455
:touch on how corruptible they can be.
456
:Which is interesting, because Sauron's
probably thinking, like, No, This
457
:is why I want to give rings to men.
458
:Jared: Heh heh.
459
:And I find it so funny that, like,
when Sauron starts listing, you know,
460
:he's like, there's always a few who
rise up and shine in the darkness, and
461
:he mentions, Beren, son of Barahir.
462
:I'm like, Sauron killed Barahir.
463
:So I'm just like, man, that's
another level of just cold.
464
:Philip: Man, he also
mentioned Tuor, or Turin.
465
:Is it Tuor or Turin that he mentioned?
466
:Jared: Tuor.
467
:Philip: It was Tuor.
468
:Oh, okay.
469
:Yeah, Yeah, that was, no, that was, neat.
470
:Jared: Yeah, I love that But yeah, like, I
also understand kind of where Celebrimbor
471
:is coming from this, because, um, I guess
from Celebrimbor's perspective, he hasn't
472
:really had too many dealings with men.
473
:Um, and I guess the only dealings that
he really would have had with men are,
474
:there were some that fought on the
Valar side when Morgoth was defeated,
475
:but like, the majority of men were
fighting with Morgoth in the First Age.
476
:So I guess there's a little bit of like,
reason for him to be just naturally
477
:suspicious of men at this point, not
wanting to give them rings, because
478
:he understands, like, you know, the
power behind what they're doing.
479
:But yeah, of course, Sauron's
just like, Wait, wait, wait, just,
480
:just give men another chance.
481
:Philip: Yes, it's, yes, that's true.
482
:So, all right, so let's move
on to our, our third storyline.
483
:So we got the men of Numenor, and so
it's, it's, they come to an interesting
484
:point now, more where the, the faithful
and the king's men are now clashing and
485
:there is beginning to be well basically
the kingsmen are trying to like overthrow
486
:or put away the faithful so they don't
have any more like, commanding power.
487
:See that with Elendil They like, Hey,
if you're going to be, if you're, you
488
:know, still be a part of the faithful,
you gotta, you gotta, you know, get
489
:rid of your rank and the, and you
can like, I don't, it just get rid
490
:of your rank, I guess is what they're
491
:Jared: Mm hmm.
492
:Yeah, I think they were like,
cleaning out, like, the sea guard.
493
:I think the sea guard was mostly loyal
to the queen, so they were kind of just,
494
:like, letting them all go, in a sense.
495
:Philip: okay.
496
:Yeah.
497
:So we got that.
498
:I think they, think like, yeah,
again, like, like you were saying, I
499
:thought this episode was really good.
500
:They had a really, a lot of interesting
parts that were, that really like caught
501
:my attention and kept me interested and,
and then we go, all the way, I guess
502
:like kind of the, I don't, I can't kind
of ended or like the high point was when
503
:the one like younger guy who would have
been like Isildur's friend back in the
504
:day he kind of came up against the..
505
:Pharazon's son
506
:Jared: hmm.
507
:Philip: and there was a clash there
and this is like, one thing I had a
508
:problem with this, and I think maybe
some other people have picked up on
509
:it too, like, you have this guy who's
a soldier, he's attacked by like,
510
:Pharazon's son, and like, Pharazon's
son doesn't seem like he's got much to
511
:him, you know, but like, somehow he's
able to like get the guy in the water,
512
:the guy's able to break free and then,
like, dislocates his shoulder and
513
:then the guy ends up killing him, but..
514
:So that's just kinda how it
all like, just escalated to, I
515
:think in that storyline, but.
516
:Anything there with like lore accuracies?
517
:Jared: Yeah, so I was actually
really happy to, see this episode.
518
:I think that we, we are finally
starting to enter like the parts
519
:of the lore that, Numenor is based
off of, especially like what The
520
:Rings of Power is trying to get to.
521
:Because up until, I would argue up until
this episode, we've only seen like mostly
522
:stuff invented by the show writers.
523
:Like, they carry over a lot from, like,
the ideas behind Numenor, but this is the
524
:first time that we're actually starting to
see things, like, directly from the text.
525
:So, in the Silmarillion, for example:
526
:"Cause was sought against the faithful,
that they hated King Pharazon and were his
527
:rebels, or that they had plotted against
their kin, devising lies and poisons.
528
:These charges brought against them were
for the most part false, yet those were
529
:bitter days and hate brings forth hate."
530
:Which I thought was like, yeah,
I recognized that like as soon as
531
:like the tension started happening
between the faithful and the kingsmen.
532
:I can, I kind of get the sense that
the writers have been waiting to get
533
:to this point, because it's, this is
like the initial spark that starts to
534
:build towards the downfall of Numenor.
535
:So I can tell that like there's a lot of
like eagerness behind this story, which
536
:I thought was pretty neat and pretty,
like, pretty gratifying to finally see.
537
:Philip: True.
538
:Yeah, I, it seems to me that they would
almost have the faithful just kind of like
539
:try to escape Numenor at a certain point.
540
:And I maybe they try to like retake it
over I don't know, but they're going to
541
:get back to, to Middle earth somehow.
542
:And yeah, before the,
before it all goes down.
543
:Jared: So that's, something pretty
interesting that I think that
544
:they alluded to a little bit with
Elendil's vision in the Palantir.
545
:I think that's what they're alluding to.
546
:Because in...
547
:Once things start to get really bad
in Numenor in the future, the faithful
548
:some of the faithful go over into Middle
earth, and they like, go to like, uh,
549
:Polargear, uh, where, um, Theo and,
Arondir are now, and Isildur is now.
550
:And then some of them go to the
west of Numenor, which is something
551
:that they were kind of bringing up
intermittently in the first season.
552
:They kept talking about like, the
true Numenor, if you remember.
553
:Isildur was like, trying was
like, wanting to go to the western
554
:shores of Numenor and find it.
555
:There was a city of like, the Faithful
that kind of was established as
556
:like a safe haven for the Faithful.
557
:And I think that's kind of what
Elendil was riding towards in the
558
:vision that he saw in the Palantir.
559
:That's just me speculating, but I
think that's what they're trying
560
:to build for in the future.
561
:Philip: Okay.
562
:So you're saying there is a more like
western, like habitation possibly, but
563
:then there's also Middle Earth, to the
564
:Jared: Yeah, so they all start to flee
the central city of, um, Annúminas.
565
:That's where most of the stuff
in the show has been happening
566
:so far, the city of Annúminas.
567
:They start to..
568
:The faithful start to just try to
get away from that city because
569
:a lot of horrible things start to
go down inside that capital city.
570
:And then eventually it ends with a
lot of the Faithful, getting to Middle
571
:Earth, after the downfall of Numenor.
572
:Philip: Yeah.
573
:And I mean, this is a little
bit more of like projecting like
574
:what possibly could come, but...
575
:And I know the thing too would be
like neat to see like the Numenoreans
576
:in like their full power and being
like more powerful than like, like
577
:they're more powerful than just
like other men on middle earth.
578
:Right.
579
:so, you've got, I want to see.
580
:I want to see Elendil pull out his sword.
581
:I just want to like, I think, they're,
I don't know if they're hinting
582
:that the sword he has now is uh,
583
:Jared: Narsil?
584
:Philip: Narsil or if there's like,
or if it's like somewhere else.
585
:Jared: Yeah!
586
:So, I think that they actually in
they had it in the background of a
587
:scene in season one, um, whenever,
Galadriel and Miriel go to the Palantir
588
:for the first time, you can see
Narsil back on the wall behind them.
589
:And I think, because I noticed that
Elendil gave up his sword this episode
590
:when he was like surrendering his,
uh, duty as a captain, and I was
591
:like, all right, let's hope that we're
trading in a sword at this point.
592
:Let's go!
593
:Philip: Yes.
594
:That's true.
595
:Yeah.
596
:So I've, no, I'd love to see that.
597
:That'd be great.
598
:All right.
599
:So.
600
:Any other things catched from
the Numenorean storyline.
601
:Anything like less lore accurate?
602
:Jared: Yeah, I think we'll have to
talk about Kemen, Pharazon's son.
603
:So, Pharazon, we know very
little about his family.
604
:It's never mentioned that he has
a son, so this is definitely, like
605
:a creation by the show writers.
606
:I think that, my personal theory is that
they're introducing Kemen right now to
607
:save Pharazon as the big bad for later on.
608
:Because Pharazon, he's gonna, he's gonna
be something else in the next few seasons.
609
:And I think that they're trying
to, you know, give a little bit
610
:of breathing room to like, have
him, save him as the big bad.
611
:You know, kind of how they
kept putting off Palpatine in
612
:the original Star Wars movies.
613
:I think that Kemen is being introduced
as like a secondary antagonist just to
614
:try and like get under your skin but
kind of also just like show how terrible
615
:Pharazon is or how he's going to be
which I thought was pretty interesting.
616
:I mean Kemen is just so punchable,
especially in this episode.
617
:Philip: Yeah, what also, gets, gets
on my nerves is Elendil's daughter.
618
:Who also isn't, isn't lore.
619
:So like, I can see her just like,
staying with and being like, with the
620
:destruction of Numenor and, you know,
and yeah, and just like, and not, and
621
:not, like coming over to Middle Earth.
622
:I can see that happening because
there's not, there's not, really much.
623
:What else are they gonna
do with her, you know?
624
:Jared: Yeah, so um, there is a theory
that's been going around that I am
625
:totally 100 percent bought into.
626
:We know at some point in the
future, Sauron comes to Numenor,
627
:and he convinces the Numenoreans
to build a temple to Morgoth.
628
:And for a temple, you need an architect,
and Earian just joined the Architects
629
:Guild, and she's now aligning herself
with the evil guys on Numenor, so I think
630
:she's gonna probably be involved with
some pretty terrible things in the future.
631
:Philip: Yeah Now, Ar-Pharazon,
isn't his son also an architect?
632
:Because..
633
:Or is that, were they put,
casting him differently?
634
:Jared: Yeah, I'm not
exactly sure what he is.
635
:I don't know if he's trying to
be an architect or if he's trying
636
:to be a politician at this point.
637
:I think, I don't even know if he knows.
638
:He just seems really desperate
to please daddy at this point.
639
:Philip: Yes, oh my.
640
:Yeah, that's true.
641
:Oh, that's so true.
642
:Jared: And Speaking of family
members, the one big, like, lore
643
:thing that I keep returning to
is, where is Isildur's brother?
644
:Because he's mentioned twice in the
first season and I was like, okay,
645
:you know, they're saying that he's off
in the west part of Numenor I get it.
646
:You don't want to like have
too many characters at once
647
:to overwhelm the audience.
648
:I thought for sure they were gonna
bring him in this season because
649
:with Isildur stuck in Middle earth
and Elendil grieving And Eärien,
650
:you know, siding with the king, this
would be the perfect time for Anárion,
651
:Isildur's older brother, to be there.
652
:You know, someone for
Elendil to, like, hold on to.
653
:So I'm not, I don't really know
why they haven't brought him
654
:into the story at this point.
655
:Because, I feel like if they
wait any longer, it's gonna be
656
:really contrived when they try
to bring him in in the future.
657
:Like, oh hey, dude, where have
you been for the past two seasons?
658
:Your dad, your brother,
could have used ya.
659
:Yeah, Because Anárion is the one who
eventually, is the ruler of Minas
660
:Tirith, or Minas Arnor as it's first
called, and Isildur, is running the
661
:other city in the kingdom of Gondor,
so they're like the two, basically like
662
:the twin kings at that point in Gondor.
663
:So, having Anárion in the story
I think is kind of pivotal, so
664
:I'm just, I'm just surprised that
they haven't brought him in yet.
665
:And I felt like his absence
was a little sorely missed, at
666
:least by me in this episode.
667
:Philip: Well, hopefully they're
you know, kind of bring up a big,
668
:uh, a big climax in that one, you
know, so that kind of his appearance
669
:would kind of make a big impact.
670
:So looking at, looking at these,
uh, the different ways that
671
:Amazon's writing these stories.
672
:And, you know, sometimes we can see,
we can see differences in the lore,
673
:similarities in the lore too, but, but
I think like mostly in like, in some
674
:differences, you might be able to tell
how Amazon's trying to write a story
675
:that's maybe gonna fit more of a modern
setting as opposed to like the way Tolkien
676
:be writing his story to be more of a
lasting impact on people that, yeah.
677
:In a sense, it's enduring, right?
678
:You know, no matter, no matter
where you're at, you're still
679
:gonna find some value in his,
in the stories in his writing.
680
:Endless.
681
:Kind of endless.
682
:Yeah.
683
:So can you see, can you see,
like, anything with, uh, with
684
:these different storylines that
that kind of, like, hits ya.
685
:Jared: Yeah.
686
:So one thing that I've been thinking
about a lot with this show in particular
687
:is this show is in a really weird place
where it has very little to go off of and
688
:also a lot to go off of at the same time.
689
:And another thing that just the
entire premise of, the show is
690
:based off the rings of power, which
is something that Tolkien kind
691
:of left ambiguous in his writing.
692
:Like, we don't really get to know, a
lot about the purposes of the rings.
693
:Like, we do get, like, a lot some
insight here and there, and in
694
:some of his letters and in, like,
chapters of the Silmarillion.
695
:We get some insight, but overall,
Tolkien had a lot of ambiguity
696
:in his writing while also, like,
just having this enormous scope.
697
:I think the show is building into
people's desires nowadays to like,
698
:know about lesser known parts of
the work like, you know, getting to
699
:explore the lands of Rhûne and things
like that but it's also kind of
700
:falling into the trap of this modern
literary narrative of if a show doesn't
701
:explain everything, it's bad writing.
702
:So I feel like the show is
kind of like trying to justify
703
:itself by explaining a lot.
704
:And maybe some stuff that
could have been left ambiguous.
705
:So there's like very little
room for ambiguity, I feel
706
:like, in the modern audience.
707
:And I think that the show is
kind of struggling with that.
708
:Because it's like, well,
how much do we explain here?
709
:How much do we leave it kind of vague
and open to interpretation here?
710
:Yeah, it's very interesting,
just like, thinking about that.
711
:I've just been thinking about that
a lot, especially this season.
712
:Philip: Right.
713
:Yeah.
714
:I think that something, and it kind
of goes off of that, and we've talked
715
:about in other episodes, is how, you
know, I, Amazon's The Rings of Power
716
:has tried to give like a backstory in
a sense to a lot of things that have
717
:happened in The Lord of the Rings ya
know trilogy, and maybe like, that, all
718
:that doesn't necessarily need to need
to be fleshed out so much all the time,
719
:Jared: Yeah.
720
:Philip: but
721
:Jared: No, that's that's a really
good point, is that like, That's
722
:also the thing I think is a big
struggle with prequels in general.
723
:I think prequels kind of feel a need
to connect a lot to the original story.
724
:And, you know, it can be done
well, but it also can, you can go
725
:overboard with it fairly quickly.
726
:I feel like that's also just, I
personally don't mind, like, the
727
:Harfoot storyline, for example.
728
:It's not my favorite by any stretch.
729
:I don't mind it.
730
:But I can understand people's frustrations
with it because it really, it seems to
731
:be primarily there to connect viewers
to the hobbit storylines that they
732
:love so much in Lord of the Rings.
733
:So, I feel like there's definitely
a struggle with trying to
734
:write a prequel show like this.
735
:Philip: Yeah, definitely!
736
:So if you could pull out like a
least favorite and a most favorite
737
:part of this episode, where
would you, uh, which would it be?
738
:Jared: Yeah, so I'll start
with my least favorite part I
739
:really enjoyed this episode.
740
:It might be one of the best in the
show, in my opinion, but I, I'll
741
:admit I was really disappointed
with the doors of Durin.
742
:I was hoping for a much grander reveal.
743
:I was kind of hoping to like, see them
set the doors in this, the doors in
744
:the side of the mountain, and like,
see like, the moonlight, you know,
745
:shining on the runes and everything,
and instead what we kind of got was
746
:like, uh, draw down the curtain.
747
:Here's the doors.
748
:Uh, huzzah.
749
:And they, like, raise their glasses.
750
:So I was just kind of I don't know if I,
like, set myself up too much for wanting
751
:more from that scene, but I thought
that it was, like, something really cool
752
:that directly goes into, like, Lord of
the Rings that's actually, like, there
753
:in the lore, and then they kind of
just had it, like, very underwhelming.
754
:Philip: Yeah, no, I think that's, I
think it happens a lot, especially in
755
:this season, it's happened a lot with
just, there are these lore things that
756
:like, they could be stretching out more,
like just kind of giving more time to,
757
:to make things, just make things more
interesting and, and what not, but.
758
:Yeah,
759
:Jared: Yeah, and, like, kind of building
off of that, I Like I've said before, I'm
760
:like very passionate about the dwarves
and the dwarven rings of power and I
761
:remember, because I love, my favorite
scene of the first season is when
762
:they're forging the elven rings in like
the last five minutes of the episode.
763
:Like, it's like beautiful cinematography,
it's really cool to see them at
764
:work and everything, and I remember
thinking, oh I hope we get to see
765
:something like that with the dwarven
rings being made, and we didn't.
766
:And I was like darn it.
767
:Philip: Yeah, noo,
that's, yeah, definitely.
768
:I, I agree.
769
:So, what about your
770
:Jared: Ooh, my favorite part.
771
:I loved the attack on the faithful scene.
772
:I wasn't expecting to care so
much about Valandil's death.
773
:I just think that scene just happened
to be like, just acted out pretty well.
774
:And like, the guy who plays, Elendil,
Lloyd Owen, I believe his name is.
775
:you know, he just like,
gave his all to that scene.
776
:And so I just really enjoyed that.
777
:Also, I knew that Valandil was going
to die because in the future, Isildur
778
:names his son Valandil, and Valandil
becomes one of the first kings of Gondor.
779
:So once they had this character
named Valandil in the show, I
780
:was like, Oh, great, something
terrible's gonna happen to this guy.
781
:Isildur's gonna name his son after him.
782
:So I really love that part.
783
:But, another scene that I really loved
too was Celebrimbor at the very end.
784
:Discussing with his smiths about how
they're gonna make the nine and he's
785
:like, you know He's like if you're
not giving 100 percent in this project
786
:You're no longer a smith of Eregion
and he like goes upstairs and he's
787
:his hands are like shaking he's all
agitated and then Sauron just like
788
:slides in with a smile and he's like my
friends I know that Celebrimbor seems
789
:intemperate, but i'm here to help you.
790
:Let's get to work shall we?
791
:I was just like oh man, that is just cruel
792
:Philip: Yeah, a lot of
well done stuff there.
793
:Definitely my favorite episode by far too.
794
:Yeah, I think, yeah, I think the
clash of the faithful and the kingsmen
795
:is definitely, definitely cool.
796
:wanna, I just wanna see like,
I feel like the action from the
797
:first season wasn't so great.
798
:So I'd like, so to see some more action
here, I think, like I think in general
799
:for this season they definitely got the
Numenoran storyline going really well.
800
:Like, there hasn't been a part
with them that I haven't liked,
801
:honestly, really, overall.
802
:So I really like that.
803
:I think the guy who died is
definitely like a bummer.
804
:I did like his character.
805
:I think he grew on me.
806
:yeah
807
:Jared: It's going to be interesting
to see, because, the next three
808
:weeks are like the three week,
basically, part finale, where
809
:it's all the Battle of Eregion.
810
:So I'm interested to see,
because we kind of got, like,
811
:the Battle of the Southlands.
812
:It was more like a skirmish of the
Southlands in the first season.
813
:So I'm really excited and interested
to see how The Rings of Power is
814
:going to do a full on battle scene,
something like Helm's Deep kind of deal.
815
:I'm interested to see how that's going
to go in terms of just like action
816
:and pacing, how well they handle that.
817
:Philip: Oh, Yeah, Yeah, definitely.
818
:It'd be cool.
819
:I think I think for me.
820
:It would almost be this sense of it being
so epic and then you get to it and it's
821
:not and it's like, all right gotta reign
things in here be careful about you know,
822
:not being maybe not being too excited.
823
:Jared: Um, I don't want
to get my hopes up too
824
:Philip: yeah
825
:Anyways, that was great.
826
:Well, thanks Jared for, for coming
on and, uh, and reviewing things
827
:on the fourth, FIFTH episode here.
828
:Jared: so much for having me.
829
:Philip: Oh yeah, definitely.
830
:Yeah.
831
:This was, uh, this is great.
832
:Yeah.
833
:Thanks everybody for tuning in
and we'll catch you next time
834
:for our review of episode six of
the rings of power season two.
835
:Philip Outro: Thanks for
visiting the White City.
836
:Before you leave, please subscribe
to our podcast and check us out
837
:at thewhitecitypodcast.com or
on YouTube or Facebook under
838
:the tag @thewhitecitypodcast