Wondering how to have good conversations about your Christian faith with neighbors and friends who aren’t Christian? Many of us can think of examples of how not to do this. But how can we do it lovingly, faithfully, and respectfully? Church leaders often ask us, “how can I help people in my congregation have good spiritual conversations with their neighbors?."

Watch this Pivot podcast interview to learn from an artist and evangelist working in New York City among secular artists as well as a church planter in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. If you want to learn how to talk about Jesus with your neighbors who are spiritual but not religious, tune into this episode and discover how to share the difference Jesus makes in your life.

Show notes:

Guest Mike Wu mentions listening to people's longings and losses as a way of finding hope. Check out this Faith+Lead article by Dawn Alitz for a free download to lead this practice in your community.

https://faithlead.org/blog/finding-hope-by-listening-to-longings-and-losses/

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Mike Wu: I think it was the late Tim Keller who talks a lot about, um, cultural exegesis is often equally as important, if not more important than biblical exegesis. Um, you know, to be fair, it doesn't matter where you sit on the the kind of Christian spectrum we're probably like from here to here, theologically speaking. Uh, but we all read culture very, very differently. And so I think a big part of that is language really matters. And so I approached my only three non-Christian friends I knew at the time, and I said, hey, um, I'm thinking about starting a start up church. And I just wanted to to get your input on that. And, um, every single one of them kind of said, oh, I know what a start up is, but what's a start up church? And I said, oh, it's like a start up, but it's kind of in the in the church industry space, right? So you just break it down into, into language that they can comprehend and make sense of.

Dwight Zscheile: Have you ever wondered how to have good conversations about Christian faith with neighbors and friends who aren't Christian? Many of us can think of examples of how not to do this, but how can we do it lovingly, faithfully, and respectfully? Church leaders often ask us, how can I help people in my congregation have good spiritual conversations with their neighbors? This is an urgent and vital topic for us to explore in a world where knowledge of what Christian faith actually is all about cannot be assumed. Hello everyone, I'm Dwight Zscheile. Welcome to the Pivot podcast. If you're new here, this is the podcast where we talk about how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. In today's episode, we are going to talk about some simple and creative ways to have spiritual conversations with others, how you can start practicing in environments where the stakes feel lower as well as the difference makes Jesus makes in our everyday lives. How do we do this with people who may have negative assumptions or know very little actually about Christianity? And I am so excited to have today with us two innovative ministry leaders working in very diverse contexts, both of whom have been Seeds fellows. The Seeds Fellowship is Luther Seminary's accelerator program for ministry entrepreneurs. Danielle Cummings is an artist, an evangelist working in New York City among secular artists. She's director of Renew New York. We also have Mike Wu, who is a church planter in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. He is a Chinese Australian pastor who has worked on multiple continents and in multiple contexts, with a professional background in banking and finance. So welcome, Danielle and Mike.

Danielle Cummings: Thank you.

Dwight Zscheile: Well, so let's begin by hearing from each of you a little bit about your own ministries and the context in which your you work. You're both engaged evangelistically, if you will, in context for the Christian faith is not necessarily the predominant story, to say the least. So, Danielle, let's start with you. What about your context?

Danielle Cummings: Um, yeah. So I'm in New York City, like you mentioned. Uh, I am a writer, predominantly. Um, but I found while living here just sort of organically that I'm in very artistic community, a lot of theater people in particular, but a really broad range. Um, I've worked very closely with a flamenco dancer through our ministry, with lighting designers, um, like all different kinds of creatives. Uh, and there's a lot of overlap in their spirituality, um, and in the questions that they're asking. And, uh, and so, yeah, I've kind of fallen into filmmaking recently, and the most recent thing has been, uh, getting to hopefully be a light and kind of share the love of Jesus in film festivals. So.

Dwight Zscheile: Wonderful. So, um, great. Let's hear a little bit just kind of Mike, give us a snapshot of your context and then we'll dig in for both of you, uh, a little bit more about how you engage people and more and what you learn. So, Mike, tell us about your context and a little bit about your journey. How did you find yourself in Kuala Lumpur?

Mike Wu: Yeah, Dwight, to to keep it short, um, very unexpectedly. Uh, it was never on our radar. Neither myself nor my wife Viola. We are of Malaysian background, so we used to always say, um, when we came to the country, it's got about 35 million people we knew one and a half people. So my one, um, here was a very good friend from university, works for Google, uh, is a self-professed, uh, non-practicing Catholic. And then my only other friend, um, was an acquaintance. I counted as half a friend. Um, and so that's how we came here. It was really the Lord's leading, maybe a story for another time, but we've been, um, church planting, living here for about five years, but, uh, church planting for the past almost two years. Um, so we're, in a sense, a more traditional church planter, but planting a very non-traditional model of church that kind of works in this particular context. And for those that are less familiar with Kuala Lumpur, it's the capital of a country in Southeast Asia called Malaysia. Um, the whole country has less than 10 million Christians. And and in Kuala Lumpur, I think there was a study done recently. Um, the greater city of Kuala Lumpur has 8.5 million people, of which on the basis of, uh, I don't know why they measure it as Sundays as being the only day, but on the best of Sundays, um, there's about half a million people, um, in a church. So, uh, a bit under 6% of the population. Um, on the best of Sundays, you'd find them in a church context. And so, unlike, uh, where Danielle is from. Oh, I think there's some cats behind me. So unlike, um, Danielle's context, which I believe is in Queens, it's Kuala Lumpur is a major international gateway city. It's very transient, very diverse cultural melting pot. Um, and yeah, just very much like Queens probably or LA. Um.

Dwight Zscheile: So Mike say a little bit more then about how you go about. Church planting in a context which has such a small Christian presence. And again, Malaysia is also a predominantly Muslim country. Is that correct? And tell us a little bit more about what it's like to, um, to, you know, build Christian community in such a context?

Mike Wu: Yeah. So it's, um, it's both challenging and other parts of it, um, much to people's misnomer, actually works in our favor. So I think, um, firstly, just to put it out there in, in, in the country of Malaysia, it is actually illegal to proselytize to Muslim people. And if Muslim people convert away from Islam, um, they get into a lot of trouble. Um, so technically, in the in the official history of Malaysia, there's been zero conversions away from the Islamic faith. So we're very well aware of that and we're very sensitive to that fact. Um, but what's really interesting is unlike the West, um, without sounding too academic, I think in my experience growing up in Australia and having lived in the US as well. Um, in academia at least, we often talk about the worldview of the West is spiritual stuff kind of happens up here, and the reality happens down here, and there's something called the missing middle. Whereas what I appreciate about living in Asia, and especially in a multi-faith context and Muslim majority context like Malaysia is, I think everyone's got a more integrated view of spirituality. So spirituality or the fact that, um, the spiritual informs the material and vice versa is not a foreign concept in this context. So actually spiritual conversations, uh, in a sense easier to be had in this context than it would be in, say, Australia.

Dwight Zscheile: So, Danielle, tell us a little bit about what you're finding just culturally then in the New York artistic community, what kind of cultural worldviews and, uh, assumptions are do you run into in those conversations?

Danielle Cummings: Yeah. Um, I mean, first of all, yeah, I'm in a I'm in Astoria, um, which is a really fascinating neighborhood. Um, for decades, there's been no ethnic majority in Astoria, which is fairly unique. Um, at some point, Time magazine had named it, like, the most diverse urban area in the world. Um, so I'm in sort of a unique spot. Uh, so because of that, we hadn't even really thought about this, but some of our pictures look almost like, um, like their pose diversity adverts. Um, like, we just sort of organically are like, oh, yeah, I guess we do have like a really broad range of, of people with different backgrounds. Um, and that's really common in, in the theater spaces too, uh, in a whole lot of different ways. I mean, um, you know, we're, uh, constantly having to, um, I think people are really fascinated by the fact that we're that we're Christian, um, in theater spaces, for instance, where there's, like, not usually another Christian there. Um, yeah. So what I found that's really interesting is that, uh, the artistic spaces I think are intrinsically really spiritual. I think people who are making art are trying to live kind of in that middle ground to use language. They that you're using, Mike, like, um, they're really trying to, uh. Figure out how to make material spiritual truths. Um, claims about morality, claims about goodness, claims about meaning. They're really trying to figure out how to make those things material. So whether that's in like a visual artwork or a theater experience or a dance or a lighting, you know, choice, um, there's different ways that they're trying to do that. But the point is for the participant to engage in some kind of dialogue with them about spiritual meaning. So that's, I think, what artists are baseline trying to do. Um, which again, makes it actually very easy to constantly be kind of having spiritual conversations. Um, where I think it's interesting is that, uh, the context of the US and New York in particular is very like you do yours and I'll do mine. Um, so again, that also kind of makes it easy because it's a little lower pressure. Um, like if I share what I think most people are willing to be like, oh, cool. Um, but then, you know, it's I think the challenge is then inviting them into a little bit more of a dialogue with it. Um, and, uh, in a way that's still, like, really respectful and and willing to listen to kind of where they're coming from, too.

Dwight Zscheile: So, um, tell us, give us a story, perhaps, Danielle, of one of those encounters or one of those relationships and how it might have unfolded in terms of going a bit deeper around around some of those things.

Danielle Cummings: Yeah. Um, oh my gosh, I have a lot. Uh, so just, uh, last year, um, I made this, uh, this short virtual play or short film, depending on how you want to define it. The lines are very blurred, and, um, it's sort of a funny little script. Um, doesn't seem, on the surface, extremely spiritual. It's this girl sort of dealing with her insecurities and, uh. Yeah, and, um, female friendship and stuff. But it got into the National Women's Theater Festival, which is just a really great organization. Um, and, uh, we've worked with them a little bit before. They know that we're working with the ministry. They know who we are. Um, and so we went in person, um, because I really felt like, you know, like, at the very least, I want to be someone who serves well. Right? Like, let's establish that as a baseline relational, um, start. And so we went down and volunteered a lot. And, uh, in doing that, it was wild how many conversations just unfolded in this like, long weekend of being there and serving. Um, and we had sort of moment after moment of meeting people, uh, who felt drawn to talk to us, um, like we were working at a concession stand. Normally people are just kind of getting things and going into the shows, but people would stop at the stand and and talk to us. Um, and so one of the people in particular, we got to go see her show, which was great because, again, we could engage a little more on her terms with like where she's at. And she shared about, um, feeling the fate was leading her. Um, and she was like, I don't believe in anything. I've never believed in anything. But that fate was kind of leading her through this experience of dealing with grief from people she knew in college who had died, um, in a in a plane crash. So she sort of made a pilgrimage out to where the plane crash had been and, and had this really amazing encounter. And one of the recurring themes was that her father, um, she had grown up without her father. And this person who was sort of there for her in that place and who was trying to care for her, made her process what it would have been like to have a father. And so afterwards, she really, uh, I think it's just the spirit kind of zeroed in on me and was like, I really want to hear what you think. Um, and sat down. She was like, let's sit down. And I was like, okay. So I sat down with her and, um, yeah. And so I caveated like, hey, I'm a minister. So like, this is the point of view I'm going to have. Um, but I shared, um, I think you do have a father, right? Like, I think that the story is God as a father caring for you. Um, and it was wild to see it, like, settle into her face. And she was like, um, I've been in churches a lot, because she sings. She was like, I've never resonated with it. I've never thought about it that way. Um, she was like, but I perform in churches all the all the time. And I was like, yeah, well, I hope, you know, like when you're singing about him as father, I think that that's this kind of fate thing that's leading you, you know, through this experience. Like, I think he really sees you and knows you. And there were so many things in her story that were so specific. And I was like, I think he's telling you like, he really knows who you are, and he is a father to you, and he loves you so much. Um, so that was one I think that was particularly rewarding last year. Um, just because I, you know, this isn't like, I think everything's kind of an ongoing process. And, um, but seeing kind of a breakthrough moment for somebody where they understood how God was relevant to them personally for the first time, um, and how he was like a deeply personal God for them for the first time was such a beautiful experience. Um, and then knowing, like, the next time she's in a church space, like she's going to experience that differently. Uh, and so that was a really cool, really powerful, uh, example of kind of the work that I get to do. Just, um, I joke that I'm like a professional friend, so.

Dwight Zscheile: I love that story. Danielle, particularly that you're going to where people are at. You're you're connected. You're you're a member of this artistic community. You're you belong, you're already there and you're listening deeply and lovingly to people. Um, I love that, that idea of being a friend. So, Mike, how about a story from you in your context or your experience? Um, how you talk about, uh, you know, Christian faith and, um, what would you like to share?

Mike Wu: Yeah, absolutely. I think when we first started the church, um, I think we started the church on a conviction of if we're truly going to be co-laborers and not co competitors, um, for the gospel in this city, then how can we be doing things no one else is doing to reach the people no one else is reaching, but also in a way that complements what the body of Christ is already doing. And it just so happens if I use a food analogy. Um, the Sunday buffet menu is at its peak. You know, big churches, medium small, loud churches, quiet churches, high church, low church, monolingual bilingual trilingual churches, they all exist. But what really kind of disturbed us a little bit is why is it that, you know, in a city of 8.5 million people, only half a million people, for whatever reason, can be bothered poking their heads into a church or you flip the equation, why is it that 8 million people cannot even be bothered poking their heads into a church? And and there's definitely not 8 million people who cannot go to a church by law, even. And so when we first started off, I actually approached the only three non-Christian friends I had. And I think with with a lot of what we do, um, I think it was the late Tim Keller who talks a lot about, um, cultural exegesis is often equally as important, if not more important than biblical exegesis. Um, you know, to be fair, it doesn't matter where you sit on the, the kind of Christian spectrum we're probably like from here to here, theologically speaking. Uh, but we all read culture very, very differently. And so I think a big part of that is language really matters. And so I approached my only three non-Christian friends I knew at the time, and I said, hey, um, I'm thinking about starting a startup church. And I just wanted to to get your input on that. And, um, every single one of them kind of said, oh, I know what a startup is, but what's a startup church? And I said, oh, it's like a startup, but it's kind of in the in the church industry space, right? So you just break it down into, into language that they can comprehend and make sense of. And then, um, each of them and this was three separate meetings where they said, oh, but I'm not a Christian. And I said, yeah, that's exactly why I want to ask you this question, because, you know, Christians have similar presuppositions about the way church is supposed to work and so forth. And, and our heart was always really for the unchurched and de-churched. And so what's really cool, um, from that is, is one of the guys was atheist and um, and for every single one of them, I said, hey, would you be willing to, to check out this church space? You know, um, and they said, yeah, if there's a church that kind of sounds or looks like this, I'm in. And it was hilarious because when he first came, um, this particular individual, um, his name is, is Ray, and, uh, he's a lawyer by profession, a fantastic guy, brilliant guy. And he came with his lawyer's little leather briefcase and and we're reading Genesis. And usually people, you know, you have a digital copy or physical copy, but everyone knows, like, you know, Bible apps exist. And so when it began, uh, our Bible reading sessions, um, this guy Ray, he decided to go to his briefcase, and he just punked out two stacks of A4 paper stapled together. And everyone's looking at this guy going, what is going on? And and this just gives you a sense of how not familiar he, he kind of is with Christian culture is. He decided to Google the chapters we're reading and printed it out because he didn't have a Bible. And then he had his, you know, blue pen and red pen and and we were underlining. Off and at the end of our session, we always ask the people that have been a bit quiet and said, "Ray, you've been really quiet." And usually he's quite a boisterous kind of character. So did you have any questions or any thoughts you wanted to share? And he said, "before I begin, I just want to say that I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but" and I can't remember what came after the but but it was brilliant. Um, so that's the story of Ray and one of the other friends, um, Kelvin, he's actually identifies as a Buddhist, and he's actually one of the hosts of one of our our Bible reading gatherings. Um, and that's really bizarre. The Chinese Malaysian guy. And, um, and I asked him one day, I said, hey, Kelvin, what's made you come back 18 months in a row almost, week in, week out, being so willing to host us and be part of this community even though you don't identify as Christian. And he just said, "well, firstly, I'm genuinely curious about the Bible," um, which is, I think, a misnomer that a lot of people have is that if you're not Christian, you're not interested in the Bible whatsoever. "But secondly," he said, "I just haven't found a safe space. And to be honest with you, this is probably one of the only places where I find Christians," in his words, not mine. Um, "emotionally mature enough, um, to sit with me and my questions and take my objections seriously." And I said, "oh, wow." I said, "what's your other experiences been like?" And this is maybe very typical of, uh, the previous generation of Christians in this part of the world in particular, where he said, "well, they're typically, you know, either very dismissive, very defensive, they get hostile very quickly, or they just try to convert me on the spot." And he says, "that's not what I need. But but I can see that you guys really make an effort to be empathetic, to try to understand the root of my question, to sit alongside me and go on the journey of wrestling through the questions that I have." And so that was hugely encouraging for us. And I think, um, yeah, I think, you know, I think about that passage in 1 Peter where it talks about, you know, always be prepared to give an answer to people for the for the hope, for the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, and that just really means do it in a way that's dignifying. And so that's been a bit of a North Star or guiding light in terms of our posture with which we engage with these spiritual conversations.

Dwight Zscheile: Thanks, Mike. That's I think that's beautiful. So let's dig into that a little bit more, I think for both of you, which is, um, you know, a lot of times people who aren't Christian have either had experiences of Christians doing either evangelistic work or proselytizing or something in ways that have not been welcoming, that have not been gracious. And those often need to be overcome or, you know, there's genuine sort of bad experiences there. And sometimes also people just have from the culture assumptions about Christianity or Christians or church that may be pretty far off from what Jesus was actually about and what the gospels are actually saying. Um, that also have to be overcome or, you know, reframed or reinterpreted for people. So, how does that work? I mean, you know, Mike, you talked about, um, creating a space where people can bring questions. Um, you're actually, you know, having the the Buddhist friend neighbor host, which is actually, I think, a really powerful idea, right? That you're, that as a church, you're actually leaning into the hospitality of, of non-Christian neighbors. Right? And they're part of this community in certain ways. But I wonder if you both could speak to some of those threads.

Mike Wu: I mean, I think I, I tend to keep things quite simple. And with this particular, um, person, Kelvin, he was already my friend beforehand. So he lives in the condo across the road from me and through mutual friends we got to know one another. And I think what really strikes me in the Gospels, in particular, when Jesus goes out incarnationally and witnesses, is he not only does life with people, but it comes out of a place of love. And I think that's. That's something that, you know, is a non-negotiable for me. Like I always say, people really clever and switched on. And this guy Kelvin, you know, without outing who he is. You know, a few months ago, he was in Greece on a panel discussion with Barack Obama. So he's clearly a very brilliant individual, right? Um, by anyone's standards. But I think. You know, when it comes to this particular individual and every other individual, oftentimes a lot of the people that walk through the door while they either found us randomly on Instagram algorithm or we have a prior relationship. And I think when you genuinely care for someone, it just gets that much easier. And I always say, like people pretty switched on. And oftentimes the church doesn't give people or dignify people or give them enough credit for how switched on they are. And I like to think that people can sniff a fake from a mile away, or if we're just going into it with a very, um, a gendered posture, um, they can see from a mile away. And so my ethos, even in our posture of welcoming and hospitality into our church, has always been this sense of, you know, we really want to be a place where you can be genuinely curious in an environment that's non-judgmental, um, in a place of welcome. But also, um, I'm quite upfront, um, with these individuals, and everyone does a zoom call with me before they come to the church as a way of getting to know one another. Um, and I always say, you know, I just want to put it out there. Whether you're Christian or not, our friendship is not based on whether you're a Christian or not, or whether you end up coming to my church or not. Um. That's not the basis for friendship, but obviously for the people who are not Christians, and they decide to become a Christian, as both a pastor and a Christian, I'm pretty open about the fact that, hey, if you want to become a Christian, I would be absolutely overjoyed and delighted and and would love that. And we'd love to walk alongside you. But but there's just some of the, I guess, um, key principles of key tenets that we operate off as we think through or wrestle through the approach to your question, Dwight.

Danielle Cummings: Yeah, um, yeah, I would totally agree with that. I think, um, I think the first thing is, like, you should genuinely love the person you're talking to. So probably like find things about them that you like and appreciate. Um, one of the things, biblically that I think is really interesting and important is, the approach Jesus takes, for instance, to the Samaritan woman is to genuinely kind of draw her out as a person and kind of get to know her and see where she's already seeking something in her life. Um, and I think that that's the basis of any time that I'm, like, going to share with somebody. It's based on where I feel like they're looking for something. Um, and I genuinely am like, hey, I feel like Jesus is that, you know, like, if I really believe he's the answer to all seeking, then I think organically. Um, as you're friends with somebody and they're sharing about, like, loneliness or looking for a place to belong or, um, feeling like they're failing and they can't, you know, cut it. Um, or, you know, for artists, a lot of times there's just this, like, fear that they're not doing enough. The gospel directly addresses each of those things. Like, the great news is that Jesus has made it so it's not focused on your efforts. The great news is that, like you do belong, and he sees you and knows you and and has made you different for a reason. And, um, yeah, it's just this really natural thing. And I think a lot of it has to do with, like, this fascinating assumption that, I assume people already have some relationship with God before I meet them. And I think that there's an assumption in the church often that that's not the case. Um, that that, uh, like when people talk about New York City, I feel like I'm always baffled because people will be like, I'll meet people from the South, you know, and they're like, oh, you're in New York. That must be really hard. And I'm like, oh, I mean, like and they're like, "like people don't believe in God. They're very hostile." They'll say that. And I'm like, there's no, I've never encountered hostility. Like, to be clear, um, I think people have been hurt by the church, but that's its own specific thing, right? Like they're not hostile towards God. Um, the majority of of people in New York would say, with varying degrees of certainty that they think there's probably a god or they think there might be a god. Um, I think something like 70% are like would say that they're not atheist. Um, 70, 80%. But that's pretty good. That's not bad. Maybe even 90%. Um, but the percentage that are like, yes, I follow Jesus. That's very, very, very small here. Um, and uh, and it's a really interesting dynamic to see, like, if I assume that they have some relationship with God, that God's already talking to them, already encountering them, um, it becomes a really fun treasure hunt to get to know somebody and be like, oh, like what's happening here? Um, and it's it's like, I love stories. Obviously I write, um, I'm like, what is the story? You know, like, what is God speaking to them? Where is he challenging them? Um, and I just assume, like I'm coming in in the middle of this person's narrative. Right? So what? You know what's going on here? Um, if I assume that I'm not the source, but that there's an external source and I'm there as an observer, it takes a lot of pressure off of me, and it allows me to really, um, joyfully engage and, uh. Yeah, but that's a really that's probably the biggest distinction I would bring up that's that's important is that, yeah, there tends to be an assumption in the church. Um, in the States especially, we love to think of ourselves as kind of the hero. And so there's this assumption that, uh, oh, like, I'm going to bring them something that they don't know. And I'm like, okay, I don't I don't want to assume that that's the case. I actually think probably there's differences in their experience that can enhance the way I think about God, too. Um, so how can I learn from them first, um, and then see how God's encountering them. And I walk away like, humbled and joyful because God's always already doing something that I couldn't have possibly been the source of. So.

Mike Wu: Um, if I could just piggyback off Danielle. I loved what you just said. Danielle, this idea of God is already at work in people's lives, and and how often do we forget that, especially in more individualistic societies? Or you framed it better where, where the hero of the story and and, you know, um, I'm a graduate of Fuller Theological Seminary. I love it, but I think my alma mater was also one of the the key culprits of this, you know, church growth model, where we just want to know the one, two, three step playbook. And I don't think that's the way, um, God works. And one of the things I remember in one of our capstone classes that was preached about a lot is the leadership begins with listening and this notion that one of the primary callings of a pastor or church planter, or I would dare say, even just as a Christian in general, is listening out for the longings and losses of people. And then how do we help them make sense of what God is doing in the midst of that? And, and I guess kind of piggybacking off Danielle again, like, as Christians, if we genuinely profess the faith, then then we also have to be convicted of the fact that there is a God relevance in everybody's lives, whether they're aware of it or they're just currently oblivious to it. Um, that every single person, um, is on a spiritual pilgrimage or a spiritual journey, if you like, just at different junctures. And I think people often assume that, you know, really successful evangelists or really successful church planters, you know, we're really gifted at talking, we're really articulate, we're charismatic or we're compelling. But I actually think, um, it's got more to do with listening and being both curious about God and being curious about other people, as it is about how smart we are. And I'm just reminded, as Danielle was sharing, you know, that the convicting and the compelling is the work of the Holy Spirit. And actually why the Holy Spirit is also so good at it is nobody listens, understands, and dignifies people like the Holy Spirit. And so I was just kind of reminded of that as, as Danielle was sharing. So thanks, Danielle.

Dwight Zscheile: So many of our listeners and viewers are church leaders who are, um, struggling perhaps with how to help people in their local churches and their congregations do this work that you're describing this work of listening to their own friends' and neighbors' spiritual stories and bearing witness faithfully, graciously, respectfully. So what would be your counsel to church leaders of how to equip their congregations to do this work?

Danielle Cummings: I lead some trainings on this, um, regularly. Uh, it's something that I think is really cool, and I love seeing people kind of take it and run with it. Um, so the first thing that I would say is, uh, is, yeah, to start with that, start with teaching them that, like, God's probably already working right in this person's life, like go out on your treasure hunt and try to find what's happening there. Um, and then I think, uh, I think teach people to listen for need, teach them to listen for for longings and losses, as Mike said, teach them to listen for, um, what's going on with this person? Um, and then what I always encourage people to do is like, really process how God meets their own needs and longings. And there's so many layers to this that, that I could get into, but like, have emotional awareness about your own needs and longings. Let's start there. Um, and then ask God what he says and does in those spaces for yourself. Because as you do that, you're going to find a more and more beautiful picture of who God is in your life and a more rich testimony. And I say this because that's a very storytellers kind of approach to this, right? Um, but I think that that's what people value, especially now there's there's been a shift into postmodernism. But I think evangelism training is often still very modern. And so the approach is so intellectual and so, um, didactic. It's like you need to know how to argue back based on what they're arguing. And like people are not super interested in those discussions. I would say even if they are, which some are, even if they are, it doesn't usually go deeper. As a very fast story like I remember, I have like a hilarious reputation for gathering little groups at parties and sharing the gospel with them. So it's kind of an ongoing joke, and it's fun. Like my friends, um, one of my friends, I remember I was at a Halloween party, right? So, you know, you can imagine it was like a party party. And, uh, I was sitting and my friend was like, oh, I want you to talk to my brother about about God, can you sit down and talk to my brother about God? He doesn't believe in God, but he was like, I want you to talk to my brother about it. And from the other room, another friend who's like, um, an atheist, you know, cultural Jew was like, "wait, is Danielle talking about God again? Hang on, hang on." And like, gathered people and brought them over. Um, and, uh, I was sharing and it was really interesting because one of the people there was having a very, like, intellectual discussion with me, kind of debating like, oh, like, how do you know the scriptures are reliable? All the stuff you learn, you know, to, to discuss. Um, and then this other person was just sort of listening and didn't seem engaged at all. And at the end they found out I write and they were like, oh, send me your your short stories. You know, I was like, okay, I'll send you some. And the person who was really engaged with me like that was it. I never talked to him again. Um, but the person who was just sitting and listening, um, reached out to me immediately and was like, can we please meet up? And I was like, yeah. And so she did not seem super engaged in the intellectual stuff, but with reading the story, it got very personal for her, very fast. And she ended up sharing with me like trauma that she'd been through, um, and how she hadn't gone back to church since, um, she'd been assaulted and we, um, really connected and and she said that she felt like my story was the first time she felt like it was okay to question God, um, and that God would still be there for her. Like, you know, she wasn't in trouble or something. And so she ended up coming to church with me, like becoming a writing buddy. And then, um, she committed. She was in small group with me for years, and, uh, like, is recommitted to Christ and is one of our supporters for our ministry. Now, um, there's just, you know, I think people are are taught like, oh, like, you have to be good at the reason side of this. And I think that there's so much validity to that. Like, it's good to know how to talk through these things, but it's so much more important to understand, like that's not super personal for people. People can bat around an intellectual idea all day and then like, go on with their lives, right? This is the stuff that's like life changing is knowing how to engage with real emotional need, with real emotional longings, losses, like the stuff where people are needing something. That's where Christ is going to encounter them. That's where there's going to be actual making of disciples. Like, I don't see disciples getting made out of intellectual debate. I would say 99% of the time. Now I'm a weird exception. I came to Christ through a lot of intellectual curiosity. Um, but, you know, so I can do that. And I appreciate those types of people, and they kind of like me. But, um, but if you're not ready to engage deeply with the emotional side of it, um, if you're not equipped and prepared to delve into, like, man, I'm struggling with this, you know, uh, you're going to have a harder time, I think, especially nowadays, being able to authentically show up to these conversations, which, like Mike was saying, like people can sense that a mile away.

Mike Wu: I love that. And I think to myself, you know. I think a lot about the incarnation. I mean God in his infinite wisdom. There's so many ways he could have revealed himself. There's so many ways he could have, quote unquote, saved us or made us right with him and with one another. But he chose to come and live a life largely in obscurity for the first 30 years and walk amongst the people. And I think there is something about that model that we need to lean into more than ever before. And, um, you know, I have a lot of conversations with another seeds fellow called Sam Lim, who's also a fellow church planter, Flow Church in, in Melbourne. So I'll just give him a bit of a plug. But we often talk a lot about this notion of, you know. Post-pandemic. In particular, the church is no longer in a content deficit. We have more content than ever before, probably at a higher quality, higher production than than ever before, more accessible than ever before. But what we're really facing into is a relational deficit. And I think for me, that's one of the first, um, kind of clues. Um, cultural exegesis. So I said to lean into, um, and for me, um, I love to just, you know, if it's a tip for other church leaders is: Just look for, um, the organic spaces that you already occupy. So anyone that goes to my church knows that what I jokingly call or half jokingly call my "real church" is on a Wednesday night. Um, that's when I go play a football. Or maybe in America, it's called indoor soccer. So I go play for two hours from 7:30 to 9:30, and then go out and eat with the people there. And and it's a non-negotiable. All my church knows that Wednesday night is not to be touched. And what's really fascinating is, um, recently quite a few of my, my football friends have come along, and, and I love this one particular individual who I shall not name. Uh, when I first went to play and first encountered her, I remember on the first night she was pretty, you know real, pretty friendly. And, um, I remember she said, hey, I don't know you, do you smoke weed? If you do, you know, you sound like you're new to the country. Um, you know, I could get you some of the good stuff if you really want and so to speak. And I said, and I remember saying to this individual, I said, oh, that's really kind of you, but I, I don't do that stuff. But thank you so much. That's really generous of you to, to share your contacts with me. And at the time, another fellow who plays football happens to be a member of my church plant. And he started laughing. I can't believe he thanked them for offering you, you know, like a drug dealer contact. And I said, well, I didn't know how to make sense. I just thought it was a very generous of them. Obviously I wasn't going to say yes, but but you know, long story short, this person found out later that I was a pastor and there was some explicit, uh, expletives, um, uh, in a WhatsApp group chat and said, I can't believe you guys didn't tell me he's a pastor. I can't believe I just offered a pastor, you know, some drugs. And and then I got to know this person. I just kind of I said, it's not a big deal. You know, I thought it was a very kind gesture, given that person's context. And long story short, we recently, um, held an alpha course, and, uh, this person has been coming to my church for about six months now. And, um, they brought on two more of their football playing non-Christian friends. And one of the reasons was they said, wow, you were so kind and chill about it and non-judgmental. And as the story goes, um, it turns out this person is actually a pastor's kid, unbeknownst to to myself. And they hadn't been in church for over 20 years. A lot of church trauma. And I think to myself, you know, um, what's really unique about our church is, you know, in a very short space of time, just under two years, we've gone from five people to our regular attendees is anywhere between the mid 50s to about 70 people now. But beyond just the numbers, I think what I'm really proud of is that, um, 40% of our church are either non-Christian or quite a lot of them are what we call long time de-churched. So on average, seven plus years, people who used to go to church but don't go anymore. And recently, just this past week, I had a conversation, a disproportionate number of, uh pastor's kids or ex pastor's kids. So there's about 10 or 11 of them in a group of about 60 or 70. In a country with less than 10% Christians in a city with less than, that's really, you know, disproportionate. Um, but it's just so comforting to know that that we are authentic enough and safe enough of a space for them to be able to process. And I always think, you know, one of the most challenging things for us as a church is if we're really real and really honest is: I absolutely believe that the local church is the hope of the world, where people come to find refuge, restoration and reconciliation. Yet, if I'm really honest, it's also a place of hurt for a lot of people and deep trauma. And so how do we straddle that tension of. This has been the place of probably some of their greatest hurt yet. Our hope is that it's also the pathway for them to receive their healing. It's not easy. I think it requires a lot of patience and and, um, and just a lot of God wisdom. And I think that that leads into my final point, which is, I think, um, to Danielle's point, it can often feel overwhelming when we have to be the hero of the story. But when we recognize that a lot of the work is just leaning into the slipstreams of the Holy Spirit and letting the Holy Spirit lead and being surrendered to that, um, uh, I love what I think Pastor Craig Rochelle says that as pastors, we are in one of the most deceptive industries because everything we do is in theory about Jesus, right? Everything we do is about the kingdom. Yet. If you look at the Bible, one of the biggest tensions is the great I am ness of God and the great I am ness of myself. And I have to do that heart check and our leaders have to do that heart check is are we still doing this for Jesus or. In theory we are. But there's some, you know, shadow side to what we are doing. And I think when we are able to be secure enough and humble enough to recognize that the Holy Spirit is in every single interaction and to surrender it to the Holy Spirit, to Danielle's point. The only real differentiator of Christianity, in my opinion, is that we have this thing called the Holy Spirit that Jesus left us with, and it's actually supernatural. Anything else we do is natural. You know, if we're really smart, we're really talented. We can manufacture something. But there's something called the Holy Spirit, and that is our real X factor. And so to just encourage people, um, to have courage to lean into the Holy Spirit and let the Holy Spirit lead and guide, um, and just be silly enough and humble enough to to go through with.

Dwight Zscheile: Mike and Danielle. Thank you so much for joining us today on the Pivot Podcast, and for all the wisdom and the beautiful stories that you've shared. And blessings to each of you in your ministries, in your contexts. And thank you to all of our listeners and viewers for joining us. We hope that you found it inspiring and encouraging. We'd love to have you join us again next week, as we take another dive into how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. Dwight Zscheile signing off on another episode of The Pivot podcast. See you next week.

Faith+Lead: The Pivot podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith lead. Faith lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at faithlead.org.