Episode 79: Bonhoeffer’s Secret to Faithful Discipleship with Tripp Fuller

Episode 79 • 30th May 2024 • Pivot Podcast • Faith+Lead

Tripp Fuller: When our churches are full of graduate degrees, we probably don't know, uh, what it's like, uh, to have to, uh, go paycheck to paycheck and decide whether you get books for school, clothes for school, or have three meals. Right. And so there's this, um, when it, when that happens in his life, then the question of what the gospel looks like, uh, what good news sounds like, uh, is no longer just what it would sound like in his socio economic cultural space. It also is, well, what is the working class family like? What would be good news?

:: 00:40

Dwight Zscheile: Today on the show. Why is everyone talking about Bonhoeffer? We're joined by Doctor Tripp Fuller to explore why Bonhoeffer's theological ideas such as costly grace, the power and centrality of discipleship, and the church's role in society, as well as his courageous resistance against the Nazi regime, still feel so relevant almost a century later. Hello everyone. I'm Dwight Zscheile.

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Katie Langston: And I'm Katie Langston.

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Dwight Zscheile: Welcome to the Pivot podcast, where we explore how to follow God into a faithful future by equipping all God's people to love and lead in the way of Jesus.

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Katie Langston: Yes, and we are excited to welcome Tripp Fuller as our guest. Uh, Tripp is a podcaster, theologian, minister, and I have it on good authority, a beer aficionado. Um, he's the, uh, instructor of our forthcoming Faith Lead Academy course, Pop Gods Thinking Theologically about Pop culture. And then on June 11th, 2024, he's co-leading the, uh, 2024 OSS lecture at Luther Seminary, along with, uh, Luther Professor Andy Root called Bonhoeffer the Gospel and the other a Bonhoeffer Salon, which is a super fancy title. Um, and depending on when you're listening to this, you can either catch it, you can catch it live streamed for free, or you can see a replay. Uh, just go to faithlead.org/bonhoeffer. We'll put the link in the notes in case you have a hard time spelling Bonhoeffer. Uh, and you can also catch Tripp and his many projects at Tripp Fuller. Com. Welcome, Tripp.

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Tripp Fuller: Glad to be here.

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Katie Langston: It's great to have you.

:: 02:18

Dwight Zscheile: Well, Tripp, why don't you start by telling us just a bit about Dietrich Bonhoeffer? For anyone who might not be particularly familiar with him, why is he so notable?

:: 02:27

Tripp Fuller: Well, I mean, I think the reason he ended up being notable is the, that he's ultimately executed, uh, by, uh, by the Nazis. Um, but the other element of why I find his biography kind of compelling and why I think it stays so is, uh, he wasn't born, um, where he was just immediately aware of all the systemic and cultural changes that are going on, and, and, uh, you know, just was born, like, the perfect disciple. Um, a lot of his, uh, a lot of people see him from the end of dying this, this death at the hands of the Nazis. In the same way people look back on World War two and the Nazis, where we know the end and all the tragedy and stuff that's there. But in the flux of history, um, that. Yeah, that that didn't come out of nowhere. It grew out of, uh, the whole history of Protestantism. And in Germany, uh, the, the kind of cultural and economic resentment that develops after World War one. Um, this is a time after World War One where Germany was even developing its sense of selfhood, uh, as a nation state, because there the boundary lines and identity were different before that. And, and he's a Christian that is born into a very intellectual, upper middle class family. Uh, and, and, uh, compared to siblings and family, he ended up becoming devoutly religious. And you see in his story, through the rise of, um, the Nazis, uh, you see someone who, um, has to start wrestling and asking theological questions that maybe he didn't have on his agenda early on. Um, and so the, the kind of like, looking, um, it's easy for us to look at the end and go, oh, Nazis bad or, oh, Bonhoeffer hero, but his own story, uh, it to me, kind of remains permanently compelling because he took seriously what was going on around him, and it forced him to ask theological questions, um, about, uh, about what's happening. And over time, you see him struggling wrestling and then, uh, ending up, uh, taking stands in places that, uh, who he was 3 or 4 years before couldn't have imagined. Um, and so when when you think of all the challenges Christians are facing today, um, and both on the ethical sense about the changing relationship of religion and culture and such, he's someone who's wrestling, um, led to a kind of faithfulness that that's inspiring. But also it it took seriously throughout his life and increasing number of other people's experience as a site for theological reflection and, um, you know, in, in modernity, uh, there was a kind of introduction of experience as a site for theological reflection, but he kind of, um, it isn't just his own, but there's a series throughout his life of engaging, uh, it serving German churches, say, in other countries or his time in New York and, and and learning the, the black religious experience there. Um, and, and a host of these other things where the experience of the other, uh, kind of forced on him, uh, a kind of, uh, a a site that demanded theological reflection where he expanded his own vision. And in doing so, you know, uh, what discipleship looks like, what faithfulness looks like changes. Um. And and I guess the other way people know him is like his book, The Cost of Discipleship or just discipleship, uh, in the more recent translation, is a Western spiritual classic. It's got a picture of him on the, you know, the carving of him, uh, on the big cathedral in London, uh, next to the 20th century martyrs like Romero and such. So the he's has a place in consciousness of, uh, also in large parts of the church. Right. So it's not just like, oh, Germans know him or just Protestants or Lutherans or. Right. Um. He is admired, uh, in by a number of a very ecumenical community. So he's, um, there's a kind of deep awareness to him. And you know what? I think, uh, Andy and I are hoping to do, uh, at the lecture and using the kind of format of a salon where it's kind of interactive is invite people into these historical moments where where he's like, in the process of becoming the one we project sainthood on, like or, um, uh, Victoria Barnett, who's a, uh, general editor for the translation of Bonhoeffer into English, that whole series at fortress and, um, the one of the historians at the Holocaust Museum, she talks about him as an unfinished hero. And so, like, spending more time in those, the historical narrative and seeing how he struggled with it. I think it's helpful because a lot of Christians today, um, especially in America, are asking questions about the church, and it's what is its public witness look like? What's faithfulness look like when there are tons of changes taking place and ugly expressions dominating the public square, he becomes an ally for us to think like what is? What is critical, faithful reflection look like in his life? What can we learn from it? Um, and how can we take the experiences of of people and communities that aren't our own as sites for reflection, uh, that can orient our own, uh, discipleship?

:: 07:48

Katie Langston: Yeah. Yeah, it really strikes me, um, what you're talking about in terms of or I'm intrigued by the the extent to which Bonhoeffer had to discern and interpret his own time. Like, in hindsight, it's very easy for us, right from 21st century to look back at that time and say, well, obviously the Nazis were bad and Bonhoeffer is good. But the thing that I always think about and unfortunately have been thinking about more and more over the past decade or so of American history or whatever, we're living through right now, is like the most of the Nazis didn't realize they were the Nazis. Right. And we're going to go down in history as like humanity's greatest villain of the of the century. They were caught up in something in the moment and they were unable. Many, many just rank and file. People were unable to discern and see what was actually happening. Um, and, and so it's sort of, I think calls all of us to say, okay, the people who did discern it, who did see what was going on, what were they doing to be able to do that, and what are the sorts of practices and ways of thinking about life and as Christians, faith that keep us from being similarly blind because the majority of the German, you know, Protestant church was like all in.

:: 09:17

Tripp Fuller: In one of the things, uh, I mean, I've recently finished, like, the first draft of a book on Bonhoeffer, and, um, I've been doing working on with Jeffrey Pugh, who's written plenty on Bonhoeffer and, and such. And so I, I was the one learning the most in it, you know, uh, versus putting a career's worth of reflection into a text. Uh, and, and one of the, one of the things that has stuck out to me and trying to tell the his narrative and focusing on the way different moments in Germany's story occasion different questions, uh, ones that he, he, he autobiographically he wouldn't have told the ability to ask that question previously. Um, so to me, like one of the features that sticks to that, that shows up throughout that is, uh, is is the moment, um, when he finishes his second PhD, which you have to have to teach there, uh, before he's old enough to, to teach. So now he's like, got time, right? Like, I guess if you're if you're so nerdy that you finish two PhDs, um, and in America, you would have just gotten the ability to drink. Uh, you have time to do it. And he ends up in this time spending a lot of time in the ecumenical movement where he's serving Germans in other countries. Um, and he travels and visits Rome during, uh, Holy Week and participates in, like, as a German with this inheritance of like, these critiques, like, you know, Luther's critique of Rome and stuff. He's like overwhelmed by the aesthetics of it and the way their shape of piety and rhythm of life and the liturgy plays out. And he's like, oh, well, this is a bigger vision of Christianity, and I feel a part of it, even though after it his buddy, who's a priest, that they were going through it, they get a nice argument and rehearse Protestant Catholic fights. But there's like this different recognition of the Spirit of God in a place where all of a sudden it became real, as opposed to just the ideas. Right? He's inheriting from his tradition. Same thing happens, um, when he's there in Spain, uh, in this kind of between time where he's serving a German church but in another country, and he realizes how much of his own experience of being, uh, a German, a Christian, and things was shaped by the the cultural zeitgeist of being the, the bad, the baddies after World War One. And what is it like when that's not what you're reminded of? And all the economic pressures of post World War One aren't driving on you, and they're attached to a different part of the European economy that's not has a great crazy inflation and such. And, uh, what is it like to to occupy this tradition outside of this other context? Like, and I think of to me, when I was reading that, it reminds me, like I grew up in the South, I'm a Baptist preacher's kid and is as southern, uh, as as it gets, uh, like, but I moved and did my PhD in Los Angeles, and then I was teaching at the University of Edinburgh in Scotland. And just what it means to be Christian when you're in these other contexts, all of a sudden you realize, well, half of what I was comfortable with was just being a southern white guy, right? Like which those are just like the particular parts of this culture. And now you have to investigate it because they're actually forms of life who people who share your faith or even share your nationality in a different context. They relate to it different. And so I think these early, um, experiences for him, uh, made him draw, uh, a kind of critical eye to the way, um, if you if you haven't had those, it's easy for us to internalize our normal as natural, right. Like our normal, which is just our cultural social context where you happen to be find yourself in the world, your family, class, race, gender, all those kinds of things where you are in time and all that kind of stuff. They're like, you learn your world and then you never interpret. You've never experienced a world that isn't interpreted through the grid. You learned when you learn language. And so these experiences make him go, oh, well, there's a gap here, right? Like I participated in Holy Week in in Rome. And it was not just the critique of Luther, uh, that was going through my head. Oh, like even Germans in another culture experience it differently. Oh, like I, he spends time in New York. So the, the I feel like those experiences forced on him a context where you have to separate the wheat and chaff of sorts from what you've inherited and having that going on while, um, this is before the Nazis really start driving, uh, German politics, I think set him up for, for not just like, what's the correct answer? Like what is the Christian response? But going like, well, what do what have we called Christian? That's really just being an upper middle class, overeducated family German, uh, Lutheran or like for me, like, what is it being a Baptist preacher's kid from the South, and now you just pretend all these other things? They're just part of the big bundle called trip. Um, and so the the like that we know, uh, have this, like. Inherent tendency to valorize his fidelity. I think the that story in those questions and how he related to the experience of the other um, are also invitations for us to take the experience of the other seriously. Um, the first time I taught a online class on Bonhoeffer, um, was right at the beginning of lockdown. And so we're in lockdown. The Black Lives Matter movement is taking place. Uh, and so, like rereading Bonhoeffer, someone I've been, you know, friends with in my head for all this time changes when he's asking you to to think about the experience of the other. So then what happens if he helps me think of the Black Lives Matter movement as a site of theological reflection? Um, like, how different do you see it? Rather than just going, oh, well, these kind of things associate with my deep value commitments, so I'll resonate with that part. Or or if you if they don't and you're just like. What's going on? This is uncomfortable. You know, the real solution to this is insert your theological solution for sin, and then these things go away. Um, to me, part of what I've kind of continuously learned from Bonhoeffer is, uh, they like how he raises and asks questions is kind of been. Permanently compelling to me. And then when other things are going on, returning to read him again and returning to wrestle with him again helps me take, uh, like what's happening in the present and the experiences that others are giving voice to that I don't have. Um, uh, seriously. And, you know, this isn't like a weird thing for Christians, right? Like, theoretically, we all affirm everyone bears the image of God, and everyone is addressed, uh, by the divine and all these kinds of things. But if your cultural norm, um, uh, has already filtered which experiences are valid for theological reflection, and if your filter, say, for me, is at a predominantly rural white Baptist church that sings the same hymns as when slaves, uh, were in the back of the sanctuary and everything, there's so much of a similar maybe, uh, tending to this experience in the present and being encouraged by Bonhoeffer raises those. So, um, like, I think you're right that that that, that there's something, uh, we miss if we don't realize just how situated even his own growth process is. And then what is it like to take that seriously, uh, in our own context and and reflection.

:: 16:51

Dwight Zscheile: So, Tripp, I want to just explore that, um, dimension a bit more with you around, thinking about that relationship between gospel and culture. You know, our experience at Faith lead, working with a lot of church leaders, is that often the conversation focuses on kind of, how do we fix the institutional church? And even, you know, the missional church movement, which emerged initially as a gospel and culture, how, you know, can the West be converted to Christianity, a culture that is rejected? The gospel. Right. Can it actually be, uh, what is a missionary encounter with Western culture look like? Um, but that conversation defaulted in many ways back to how do we just do church differently, right. And so so I think Bonhoeffer is an interesting figure, particularly as we dig into what we talk about as one of the key pivots of this shift from a focusing on sort of institutional church membership to actually focusing on discipleship, which you can't do without taking up. What does it mean to follow Jesus as a distinct way of life in a culture that is powerfully formative in other ways? Right. That is always forming us. Um, so dig deeper with us a little bit into Bonhoeffer's kind of emphasis on discipleship amidst this context of engaging the formative influences of culture that are actually very much contrary to God's vision and to Jesus's way.

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Tripp Fuller: Yeah, I, I would think there's kind of like three things that come to mind initially, uh, in response to that question with Bonhoeffer. The first is, um, the those early experiences and other cultures generated this desire. And you hear it in a few of the letters and papers where he's writing others about. Yes. There's like there's this giant energy in liberal Protestantism, uh, that he encountered of demythologizing the text where there's this recognition, right, that well, what do you do with the tradition, uh, when, uh, the, the authors of the text and the way the tradition's been received, uh, assumes such a different world picture, um, than our own. Like, how do you get at the event of the gospel in it? Um, and and he was, you know, interested in that and wrestles with it. But the, the he has this also sense where he's like, but there also needs to be a demythologizing of modernity that, um, the that so often the church uh, because it in many ways it births what we know in in the west of the the notion of the subject that generates democracy, the notion of truth that a like justifies and legitimates the early scientific, uh, kind of exploration of nature and these kinds of things, those aren't value neutral. And, and it's the right like his experience in watching the rise of this radical kind of nationalism and militarism that makes him go like, well, it's not value neutral. So what what is just being assumed before in internalized into the life of the church where where we just ask the question right of mission or gospel on top of, uh, maybe like a regime or form of life that is inherently idolatrous in Aryans. Um, and, and I think when we just pause there for Christians in America, that's something we are extremely uncomfortable doing. Uh, in part because so many of our denominations are institutions, and such are formed at a time where the distance between, um, you know, mainline religion in America and the post World War Two consensus, they were like they were like humming in harmony. Uh, and in this way where like, then when we ask ourselves of, like, what did it look like when it went well, like, if you don't question what's already been included into our ecclesiological self-reflection. Um, and whether or not it's problematic, then then success is like, how do we reinvigorate or reinstate, um, this other thriving time? But we're increasingly aware of all the things that weren't thriving in that. Right? So in the post World War Two, um, uh, consensus, uh, that's where America's economic system, um, develops institutions after World War two, like the world Bank and World Trade Organization, that the liberation theologians were like, have you all paid attention to what happens, uh, when we, you know, get involved in your political and economic regime? And, um, and American church was like, oh, we didn't really pay attention. And so you get like, Carter and Reagan training people to go kill a revolutionary like liberation, liberation theologians, uh, with our guns and our training and such. Like, there's this like, I think there's a lot that church hasn't asked. And on top of that, unlike Germany after World War Two, they had this deep sense of like, we have to take seriously, uh, the horror we brought in when it goes to America, we haven't ever taken seriously, uh, like transatlantic slave trade and the genocide of native peoples. That's not been something that's there. In fact, we actually see movements predominantly by Christians who resist even teaching it or framing it in that way. Right. And so like when, when we don't do that element of, of asking, what are the assumptions we have that break down before the cross, then it starts problematic. And I think the second thing, when it goes to like mission culture and such, um, Bonhoeffer, when he got back out of, uh, back into Germany and he's like the equivalent of like a glorified professor that doesn't really get paid. Um, and so he's serving, uh, um, uh, working class, uh, church in Berlin and on the faculty, but like, trying to, you know, get fully recognized and get positions and all this kind of stuff. That's where he gets, uh, serving at this poor working class church. And he realizes, even though they represent the very people that are responding right to the early Nazi movement, where the economic repression, the cultural shift of cultural change is coming too fast for them. And this resentment that shows up for legitimate reasons is now getting, uh, funneled right to this ugly expression when he's there and he actually gets to know them, all of a sudden he realizes, like, well, I didn't have something I tended to for their actual lived experience. I didn't taking that seriously the way, um, like rampant inflation where you get paid half the day through because it will be worthless so they can go buy food so they can actually eat at night, like that's going on in these students families lives. Like, no wonder they want to know who the problem is. No wonder there's like a desire of deep religious angst that gets harnessed, uh, out of these communities towards the other right here Jews. But you can see it in a lot of American, uh, culture where it gets harnessed towards immigrants or these kinds of things. Um, so, like, he has those experiences and doesn't think the solution to it, if I take their experience seriously, is learn to say about it what me and my upper middle class German families say. Um, and and when we think of the way those of us that are mainline Protestants kind of pride ourselves, and when we look at the past of being on the right side of, say, integration or like we were, the denominations actually made stances, uh, of peace towards a number of wars that have happened since then or all these kinds of things. I think we have the temptation to do, uh, what Bonhoeffer did until he was doing doing, uh, confirmation with working class kids in Germany and realizing, um, you know, uh, when our churches are full of graduate degrees, we probably don't know, uh, what it's like, uh, to have to, uh, go paycheck to paycheck and decide whether you get books for school, clothes for school, or have three meals. Right. And so there's this. Um when it when that happens in his life, then the question of what the gospel looks like, uh, what good news sounds like, uh, is no longer just what it would sound like in his socioeconomic cultural space. It also is. But what is the working class family like? What would be good news? Uh, what would be a solution to this? Um, and, and the, the third big thing around, like the gospel and culture, uh, for Bonhoeffer, um, is like, he he it's not till, uh, in the middle of the rise of, of Nazis, where he shifts from kind of more explicitly addressing theological idolatry, say, the Führer principle, or. Oh, because the German church is connected to the state and we're going to have the Aryan, uh, paragraph where, you know, you you can't really have mixed blood people. So, like, even initially it was like Jewish people who converted shouldn't be priests anymore because they work for the state. Right. And and he's like, this is not what our baptism does. Like, you can't like, ask for like someone's DNA doesn't tell you whether they can be ordained. And and that was a theological thing. But what he started to notice is that as the church was trying to be moderate on these issues and make space for different people and things, culture, that it was increasingly moving in, uh, to the energy that the Nazis have, that that filters back into the church. So this kind of moderating move. But let's just address the theological part or just the specifically religious part, meant that the church became a bystander for the growing, um, uh, ethical problems. So, like, if playing the moderate role and if sticking to theology and being, you know, insistent on know your baptism is what makes you a Christian or not, not your parents and all this kind of stuff. What it ultimately did was, uh, when you aren't parsing, uh, through your hermeneutics or your Christian hermeneutics around what's going on in culture is in the church made space where over in the in those years where the where the middle kept shifting more and more towards nationalism, more and more towards the perverse things on the outside. And so it's not until in the middle of his kind of engagement in that time where he thought, no theology actually requires you to state publicly things that in the past, the especially upper middle class Germans would use the kind of two swords, uh, doctrine of Luther, uh, to mute, talking about certain issues. And as someone that was, uh, I worked for nine years at a the largest UCC church in Los Angeles, uh, full of one percenters. I will just say we did that on a regular basis. We muted all sorts of things because, uh, who we were talking to and who, uh, and what we were speaking for was the part of the gospel that wouldn't offend or require fidelity, um, to those people, uh, to the ones we are listening to. Right. And so it was these travel experiences. It was a context of service where the vision of the gospel started to change. And then he realized I'm actually accommodating to the ugly by narrowing what the gospel gets to speak about. Um, and then culture fills the vacuum. Uh, you can see that in American religion where like, even if you follow like the trends, uh, in like as evangelical church became culture dominant in religious spaces in America, initially the right, like the political organization in evangelicals, was led by clergy and and this kind of thing. And now it's flipped where you get increasing numbers of of the you get the self-sorting of congregations and then the expectations that their preachers going to voice their deep political commitments. And I, I mean, as someone that runs classes for thousands of clergy, I'll get them like, I'll like I'd have no idea how my whole like I have like half my church now running around asking me to Maga Jesus. And where did this come from? Like, you know, and they're like, I, I don't know. And so like, we've got to a point now where I think those kind of questions of where kind of American individualism, the way we imagine, uh, church and state things, has led a kind of vacuous space in public theology that then the dominant expressions and culture fill that void. And what happens is then the church, the the people in the church are now expecting the leaders to voice their political, cultural resentments back to them. And, uh, and if they said, that's not where I'm going, that's not what I meant. You didn't read between the lines in my sermons the last ten years and all that kind of stuff. They're going to go, no, we need a new minister or we're going to go to a different church. Uh, and that was what that was like Bonhoeffer's experience, where all of a sudden, even people that were a part of the Barmen Declaration are, like, accommodating. And so what does he do? That's where you see this shift, where, like, starting the seminary, uh, the underground, he becomes underground seminary, uh, is is utterly fascinating. And so there are these bits in it where like, he's like, no, no, discipleship has to be at the very heart of. And the life of the church. Um, and and and it's even different than what we do, right when we do theological education because, uh, yeah, there's like the whole tradition learning it and stuff. But if you, if you the more I, the more I read about what happens, uh, in it the, um, his like, part of his goal was, uh, we want our students to graduate where there's both clarity about, uh, our convictions, but also a deep group of friends who know because we've executed culture, because we've thought about these things, that you're not going to serve the German state and the the the, um, unexamined allegiances of your congregation. You're going to serve Christ. And it requires people. It requires these kind of deep friendships. So he integrates, um, both like rhythms of devotion and stuff in it, but also deep play, like they would go play and do stuff. They would, uh, sing and have lots of fun. They would practice storytelling and get people to laugh. All the kinds of things that like, while you're being formed, if you read life together and get that idea, but there's this whole other side of it where he was going, you need to graduate where there's a deep reservoir of friends, um, who are disciples. And, and he has this line and I can't remember it exactly, but something like, um, uh, like the the theological education of the of clergy forgets that Jesus had disciples, and that was the only context for his ministry to the kingdom of God. And like if you look at the trends in theological education, how many of our, uh, like, how many of our students will spend very few hours with their classmates? How many of our students, um, could do the whole thing online? Like if you just look at how theological education is shifting, like, oh, you can connect with more people, more people can do this. But then you're like taking out like half of the things that, for Bonhoeffer thought, this is what's required. If you're going to have integrity in a culture. Once you've recognized how much of it has this kind of, uh, demonic in the metaphorical sense energy? Um, and I think that same thing is true when it goes to the life of the church. Right? If you just think, oh, let's get the church to work, well, then it's like, how many people are there and our donations or all these kinds of things, but if you're all there and you aren't building the relationships, uh, and, and, and clarity of vision where you are going to be self-reflective and do it in community and have a community that helps one be faithful, be, uh, self-giving or kenotic in your form of life giving, living on less for the benefit of others. All those kinds of things don't happen, um, without, uh, a community where these deep values are woven by intimate relationships and, and part of what's happening, uh, culturally. And I think it's amplified by, uh, technology is, um, what are the things we can quantify and give to people and then becoming a spectator or, uh, like a, um, a where you, a spectator or you're, you're kind of like, oh, this is an influencer that I'm following or the all these kinds of things are means of, of describing an identity. But those don't come where in the context of relationships, uh, that that the kind of transformation and fortitude Bonhoeffer thought was necessary happen.

:: 32:58

Katie Langston: Yeah. You have you have parasocial relationships as opposed to like, deep actual relationships with one another. Yeah.

:: 33:06

Tripp Fuller: And that was like, why, when I was talking with Andy about the lecture thing, I was like, well, let's try it in a salon format. So as opposed to people watching like, oh, Tripp's going to give a talk, and then they answer some questions, but then there's this meal before it, let's do the whole thing together so that it it kind of goes back and forth. And then the students, when they have their intensives at Luther, like, yeah, there's the intensives in the classroom. And hopefully we don't bore you lecturing for six hours in a day or whatever. Um, but at the meal, like, how can we have the ideas and things where that are being introduced also provoke conversations where at the table, the people you know are forming themselves vocationally or talking about like the face of the other and how it in their own life and like, how is that a site for theological reflection. And so like the, the idea when Andy and I were talking about was like, what if we did instead of like a normal lecture and that kind of thing? We tried to like, how would Bonhoeffer, if there were seminary intensives, utilize the time and relationships where when you see them on your Facebook feed, that's also a person where you said, I've never considered Black Lives Matter as a site of theological reflection. And Bonhoeffer didn't until he went to a black church in New York. Yeah. And, uh, like having relationships with that happened anyway. That's. Yeah. Sorry. That was a long answer.

:: 34:22

Katie Langston: No, no, no, that's I mean, that's very helpful. And, um, just a quick note that if you are joining us live online, we're also doing we're going to have facilitated salons. Type conversations as well, which isn't quite as good as the real thing is, like sitting down and eating together. But there will be a piece of that one. One thing I want to pick up on, um, in what you've said, uh, specifically when talking about the other and attention that I. Feel in my own life and ministry as well as I think I see it in colleagues and in the world around me, is there were a couple of things that you said, like on the one hand, you talked about how Bonhoeffer goes into the communities where there's resentment and where there's, um, where there's anxiety, economic anxiety, these sorts of things and how how him being present in the communities where resentment is building helps him have a different perspective or is able to. What I sort of took from that is that he's able to kind of humanize the people there, as opposed to viewing them as like, uh, a faceless, you know, other and then at the same time. Um. You know, he realizes more and more, um, that he needs to speak specifically to some of the things, the evils that are being perpetuated actually, politically and not just, um, and not just, uh, theologically, or rather, maybe approaching the politics from a theological perspective. And I know that, like for a lot of folks and clergy, like, I think we feel this tension between saying, like, it's so easy to do the second thing by dehumanizing. The people that. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, it's so easy to be like, I got to speak prophetically in this moment. And in the process, I do it, uh, by proclaiming my own resentment toward the people that I'm supposed to be serving and loving. And so I wonder if there's anything. You know anything there? It's it's, uh, it can be easy to have compassion for the distant other, but what about, like, the closer other that you're really frustrated with in the moment? You know what I'm saying?

:: 36:54

Tripp Fuller: Yeah, yeah. So, um, towards the end, like, right within the year of him getting arrested, I don't remember the exact date, but it was 43. It was in 1943. So like close to when he gets arrested. He wrote this, uh, letter to his, like, three closest friends that are a part, uh, yeah. In some way tangentially connected to the conspiracy. Um, and, uh, and in it, he's writing this from, uh, he went basically on a retreat to a monastery. And this is something we've learned recently that, uh, it it kind of blew my mind. So he's at this monastery, and he wrote this letter, and there's, like, when you don't know the whole context, you read it in one way. Um, and then when you realize that this monastery, the the German army, had, um, basically put Polish slaves working at this monastery. So he's staying at a monastery where there's, uh, there's even a particular a whole family there. So even the kids, right? Are, um, like, now slave labor, uh, for the monastery. And that's where he's writing this from. And in it. Um, at the beginning of it, he gives this line, uh, where he's talking about, like one of the elements you were raising like this need to view, uh, things from below. And he's here's the quote. He says it remains an experience of incomparable value that we have, for once, learned to see the great events of world history from below, from the perspective of the outcast, the suspects, the maltreated, the powerless, the oppressed and reviled. In short, from the perspective of suffering. Right. And that's like when he's sitting there and saying that, and yet he realizes he's even complicit in this system and benefiting right from Polish slaves. The Nazi army left there. And so in like two sections later, it's a short letter. I mean, it's a theological letter to his friends. Um, he then raises the the other question, I think you're raising around contempt that can generate from a kind of confidence, uh, in your parsing, um, and where he's basically he's trying to argue that failing to see other human beings from the perspective of their suffering, uh, can lead us to have contempt for others and a contempt that, uh, generates a kind of condensation, uh, or like, um, where, where you're like, oh, I'm just I'm like, super judgy. And if I'm just judgy, then I don't have to engage and I can dismiss their own situation. And there he says, uh, nothing of what we despise in another is itself foreign to us. Mm. So they they can. He's wanting you to go like you are always already embedded in this system. So even if you're recognizing these questions and raising them and think they're essential to the gospel, just know you're indicting yourself. Even if it's not like in the same way and, and and such. Um, and uh, and then he says we must learn to regard human beings less in terms of what they do and neglect to do and more in terms of what they suffer. Um, and, and for him, the, uh, the at the end of that section, he says, um, that relationships and the will to find community are best built on love because God did not hold human beings in contempt, but became human for their sake. And so you can see there, right. There's this, the view of suffering that helps us diagnose and understand the situation. But then, right, the view of suffering is established in God's self-giving all the way to the cross. So then he inverts it and then says, um, you can't you cannot cultivate contempt and high mindedness towards these others, uh, even if your convictions are strong, because, uh, contempt was an option for God, the holy, loving one for the sinner. And since that's not what God did, it's above your pay grade to do the same. And so there's this, uh, the, the like that to me, writing that right sitting there at a place where he realizes all his work right up to being, you know, arrested, he is just inscribed in the system as, just as complicit, um, and all these ways, uh, so, like the cruciform, uh, hermeneutic isn't just, uh, like the solidarity with the underside, but also, um, that that that. Yes, perspective from the victim. But when the victim is Jesus, he teaches us how to see his enemy like you. Pray for your enemy. Uh, you you are. You're the entire story of God is the reconciliation of all things. And so I think that the his kind of like those two moves, um, that are grounded in his Christology are actually offensive to the kind of performative politics, um, uh, of the culture war. Right? Because, uh, in many ways, um, the culture war is, uh, Puritan ethical angst without grace and, and and so the, the he sets this thing up and then at the end of that section, this is his, which I before didn't read this as him doing a confession. But once you know what's going on there, right like that, that he's on retreat writing this with Polish slaves serving him at a monastery, he says, um, it remains an experience of incomparable value. Uh, wait. No, that not that. That was not the line. I. I scrolled past it. He goes, um, what? Has there ever been a people in history who, in their time like us, had so little ground on under their feet? People to whom every possible alternative open to them at the time appeared equally unbearable, senseless and contrary to life. So, like he's sitting there, you could even be clear on their ethical visions. But then he's like, well, should we have done something earlier? Have we done enough? And now look, I'm sitting here thinking about this while their Polish slave, uh, serving at a monastery, and the monastery probably said yes because they didn't want to be shut down and killed themselves. Right. Like. And then you're sitting there asking these questions, and then he says, um, the face we're facing a great historical turning point. Did the responsible thinkers of another generation ever feel differently than we do today, precisely because something genuinely new was forming? Uh, that was not yet apparent in the existing alternatives? And and to me, like when you think of your question and the one Dwight asked before, uh, I think he invites us to, to both, like, have the two inversions when it goes to a Christological hermeneutic and recognize that in times of great transition and such, sometimes what you're dreaming of or what the solutions or what isn't even available to you. So like you don't have ground beneath your feet, you could feel like you're the least grounded one of all. Um, and if you need a solution and if your horizon that is required to inspire you is so far ahead, uh, then where do you even put the next step? Right. And so that Christological hermeneutic, I think, invites us to, to take like take seriously our discipleship precisely by knowing the asking, what is the next faithful step without having to have like the ten year plan for X, Y, and Z, though, uh, if you're if your trustees want one, it's always good to do one. Uh, quoting Bonhoeffer Adam and telling them we'll do it later. Probably not best for job security, but does that make sense? Like I, I find that essay, uh, it like as we were going through this, um, book project and, and such really helpful, um, because it, it, it wants ethic. It's demanding to do ethical reflection and clarity, but it's also saying like, you could not dehumanize another person since God has humanized even even the ones that executed Jesus. Right, father, forgive them for they don't know what they're doing, but that's they don't know what they're doing. It is wrong. It is immoral. It this is wrong. It's on the wrong side of history or whatever way you want. But but you didn't say that until you first recognized that the one revealed in Christ knows that, knows the violator and the victim's name and loves them completely. And that, I think, orients us in a very different way. Because. Uh, so often, or at least this is how I experience it, is in more progressive Christian spaces. It's easy to do your, uh, to do your prophetic voice in ways only your neighbors are condemned. Um, and, and do your celebration where you're essentially lifting yourself above others. Yeah. And and like that line from the cross, father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. Uh, is, is like Jesus enacting that kind of double move of Christological hermeneutics. Um, and it's extremely tricky to do in a congregation. Right. And, you know, when it and it's way more likely if they actually know you give a or. I'm sorry, I forgot. This is not home. I didn't want to curse on your podcast. But if you if they know you actually care about them and that you weren't crossing your fingers when you baptized them, and that you know when you serve the Eucharist, you would serve at the Judas. If Jesus can offer it to Judas, then you can offer it to insert the culture war opponent. Uh, that happens to be there. Um, but but he was offering it to to people that were going to deny him, were going to betray him, and he was going to death. So there wasn't lack of clarity about his mission or what the kingdom of God looked like in that context. But none none of the big questions, right? Like, and this is one of the things I love about Paul and Bonhoeffer actually picks up on this when he's doing his theological riff in creation in the fall, like when he's going through those texts is conquering sin. Law and death are not conquering humans. Sin and death are the things that pervert, um, our relations. But what God desires that. Can you see it in first Corinthians? In first Corinthians 15, you know, a lot of people obsess about the beginning part about like the nature of the resurrection and its importance. But like when he talks about the the impact of it, it's sin and death are being conquered, subject to the son, son to the father, so that God's all in all. It's not like God's all in all except the enemies or God's all in all, except for the adjusted my tribe. It's like all that's identifiable through the resurrection is identified in the very relations of the divine. And if that is our horizon, like, that's a different horizon for our mission than our institution, our body, our church, our historical moment and these kind of things. Um, and but that only that only becomes possible, I think, in communities where, uh, the one making, uh, the one helping us take seriously the prophetic energy of the text is also the one who confidently proclaims our identity as the beloved of God, um, uh, right after our confession. And so, um, yeah. Sorry that. I'm giving long answers. I'm not a good podcast guest.

:: 47:59

Katie Langston: Well, it's very helpful, very helpful. Thank you a lot to think about there.

:: 48:02

Dwight Zscheile: Yeah, yeah. And it's so rich in what you're, um, laying out is a really an invitation for all of us to, as you know, church leaders are navigating this very fraught political season and this moment in our in our history and our in our society to to step back and do that deeper reflection theologically about what's taking place. And so, Tripp, thank you so much for joining us on the Pivot podcast today.

:: 48:28

Tripp Fuller: Glad to be here.

:: 48:29

Dwight Zscheile: Yeah. Great. And and to our audience, thank you so much for, um, for joining us today as well. Remember, you can head to faithlead.org , if you want to have access to more of the Bonhoeffer resources we have there, including there's a Faith Lead Academy course that Andrew Root did that is actually filmed on site in Germany, in the places that Bonhoeffer lived and worked and led his life. So you can also at faithlead.org to register for Tripp's lecture and conversation with Andy Root on Bonhoeffer. So all that we've kind of previewed today in a sense, or had a taste of you'll get to hear a lot more of in that Aus lecture in June.

:: 49:07

Tripp Fuller: One of one quick thing about that I would just say is, if you're interested, um, the so there'll be these little moments that Andy and I set up. We'll talk a little bit, and then there'll be discussion tables. Some will happen in zoom. One of the other things that can happen is if you have a few friends that are coming over, um, you can, you know, not join the zoom room and there's a discussion guide so you can just have it, you know, talk with the people that are together in your group and then, you know, it goes back. So, uh, this is an experiment, but it's kind of cool because, uh, when when I was talking, you know, I was talking with you all about it. Like faith lead team likes trying out different. These kind of experiments of technology, theological learning. And so if the the hard pitch of introducing Bonhoeffer and community and building relationships sounds intriguing and you and you think, well, if I did it with my whole congregation, I'd get myself fired quickly. But you could probably think of 4 or 5 people who, if you did it at a home shoot up, the YouTube stream or whatever on your TV, and then gets to the discussion guide, you got them printed out. And now, um, this is my thing when I was clergy. Like, there's one bit right of introducing context stuff and now you've offended them or challenged them and now they're going to have a hard time sharing. But when we're hoping to have it built where all of it gets framed. So then if you're hosting it live or after that, you as the clergy are actually playing the pastoral role. Like, what is it like as a community to wrestle with Bonhoeffer and these challenges and such? Um, and I think this format and, uh, this little experiment could be could be a lot of fun.

:: 50:41

Katie Langston: So that's a cool idea to host a watch party, folks.

:: 50:45

S4: Yeah, I love it, I love it.

:: 50:47

Dwight Zscheile: Thank you for joining us on today's Pivot podcast. Um, if you like Pivot, please help us spread the word by liking, subscribing and subscribing on YouTube. Or if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, go ahead and leave a review. Finally, the best compliment you can give us is to share Pivot with a friend. So until next time, this is Dwight Zscheile and Katie Langston signing off.

:: 51:12

Faith+Lead: The Pivot podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith lead. Faith lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at Faithlead.org.

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