Welcome back to another episode of Nashville On The Rocks,! On today’s show, our guest isn’t the one chasing the spotlight—he’s the one behind the scenes, shaping the sound that brings a record to life.He’s a Grammy winning producer, engineer, mixer and a major part of the creative process behind some incredible records. Everyone from Stevie Nicks to The Smashing Pumpkins, The Chicks to Cheap Trick, Snoop Dogg to Anita Baker as well as Sheryl Crow, Gregg Allman, The Struts, Sugarland, Katie Cole, Kris Kristofferson and icons like Tupac Shakur, Glen Campbell and Dolly Parton!Today, we’re going behind the scenes to hear what really happens in the studio, what makes a record stand out, what separates a good record from a timeless one and stories from the sessions that helped shape rock’s history.Today we’re finding out what it really takes to capture lightning in a bottle.So kick back, pour yourself something strong, and get ready - This is Nashville on the Rocks, and we're hanging with the one and only Howard Willing.

Hey guys.

2

Welcome back to

another episode of Nashville on the rocks.

3

I'm your host, Lisa Karkos.

4

And on today's show, our guest

isn't the one chasing the spotlight.

5

He's the one behind the scenes, shaping

the sound that brings a record to life.

6

He's a Grammy winning producer,

engineer, mixer,

7

and a major part of the creative process

behind some incredible records.

8

Everyone from Stevie Nicks to the Smashing

Pumpkins, the Chicks to Cheap Trick,

9

Snoop Dogg to Anita Baker,

as well as Sheryl Crow, Gregg Allman,

10

The Struts,

Katie Cole, Kris Kristofferson and icons

11

like Tupac Shakur,

Glen Campbell and Dolly Parton.

12

Today we're going behind the scenes

to hear what really happens in the studio.

13

What makes a record stand out,

and what separates a good record

14

from a timeless one?

15

And stories from the sessions

that help shape rock's history.

16

Today, we're finding out what it really

takes to capture lightning in a bottle.

17

So kick back for yourself

something strong and get ready.

18

This is Nashville on the rocks,

and we're hanging with the one and only

19

Howard Willing.

20

And we'll. Get.

21

this.

22

Everybody that's watching or listening

to us, I want to introduce our willing.

23

Welcome to Nashville on the rocks.

24

Thanks for having me. Yeah. Of course.

25

Dude, this is so great.

26

How we kind of got hooked up with you

is that we interviewed Katie Cold,

27

a few months ago, and,

that is how we found out about you

28

and got in contact with you and

got to learn everything about your career,

29

all the different bands

that you've worked with.

30

So when you accepted our invitation

to come on the show, I was super excited.

31

Because I just feel like I know that

sometimes when you're behind the scenes,

32

you know, and you're

33

producing engineering,

maybe not out in the front.

34

Those people, they don't want to be in the

front sometimes, you know what I mean?

35

They don't want a they don't want,

36

you know, and even your profile picture,

it's not a picture of, you.

37

Know, it.

38

It's not. It's not. No.

39

No, I don't even. Know.

40

I know so, so the.

41

Mysterious man, you know, and yes, I don't

I don't want to interject too much,

42

but I'm going to get nerd it out.

43

And this this episode

is going to be really cool for me.

44

Probably a huge learning experience.

45

Yeah, I know it's.

46

You know, I can't wait to get

nerd it out with you, man. Let's go.

47

Yeah, let's go and do this.

48

But thank you for, you know, wanting

to show your face and coming on the video.

49

Well, you know, that little dance

that he could black it up.

50

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

51

We could just, like, filter it out. Yeah.

52

So it'll be good.

53

I'll be fine.

We could put a bear where you're that.

54

Come on. That would be amazing.

55

Snapchat may be like.

56

Just a bear filter.

57

So I'm going to list off

some of the artists

58

that you have worked with before.

59

And I counted that you had 73 records.

60

So I can't name everybody but that

because that's just that's just wild.

61

But so I have it here that you used

to work for Death Row Records.

62

So Snoop Dogg, Tupac, Faith

Evans, Cheap Trick, rancid,

63

Lisa Marie Presley, Macy Gray,

The Smashing Pumpkins, Liz Phair,

64

Sheryl Crow, Glen Campbell,

Kris Kristofferson, Selena Gomez, Carlene

65

Carter, The Struts so many people across

so many different genres.

66

And you said that you were an engineer

for Death Row Records for like, a year.

67

Yeah, about a year.

68

Was that your first, like.

69

First gig?

70

Gig? No, my first gig,

71

was it was in Saint Petersburg

at a message

72

on hold place, because back in the day,

you'd call somebody, okay?

73

And they put you on hold

and you'd get a message, you know, there

74

would be messages, or they talk

about the company or something like that.

75

And that was my first gig

out of the school I went to.

76

Okay.

77

And, from there,

the first real studio I, was at

78

was it was,

a place called Kiva in Memphis.

79

So I was in Memphis for a year, and,

and then from Memphis to Los Angeles.

80

Oh. That's awesome.

81

So you have really been, you know, kind of

82

at all the hotspots for music,

I would say.

83

Yeah. Yeah.

Except for Atlanta. Yeah. Okay.

84

Yeah.

85

New York City is New York City in there.

86

New York, unfortunately,

by the time my career kind of went,

87

you know, started going,

it was kind of dead there.

88

Yeah. No, I, I feel.

89

I recorded there

and there's some great studios.

90

It's just it just wasn't a thing.

91

So you're from Long Island originally?

92

You know, tell us what it was like

kind of growing up.

93

Were you really into music?

94

You know,

did you have anybody in your family

95

that was kind of,

you know, showed you that love

96

like some of your first concerts

or something like that?

97

You know, anything that kind of led

you on the path?

98

No, no, no, my,

I'm, you know, single parent household,

99

me and my sister, and,

you know, she, my mom,

100

there was always music playing,

but it was always stuff like,

101

the carpenters, Loretta Lynn,

102

lots of kind of like the soft, easy

listening stuff of the early 70s.

103

Perfect, let's call it.

104

But growing up where I grew up,

105

I feel like this was kind of

indicative of, like, New York in general.

106

When you're young,

107

at that point in time, prog

rock was kind of like a thing.

108

So like, all my friends around me,

109

you know, you'd be

I think I was like 8 or 9.

110

We got into rush

111

and the, the first two records I purchased

112

were, Moving Pictures and Back in Black.

113

Awesome. This.

114

So the first two records

I did not with my money, unfortunately.

115

That's where I had to ask my mom

to give me.

116

But and and and they were cassettes.

117

With mom's blessing. With mom's blessing.

118

But, you know,

those were the first two kind

119

of the foray into music

and the things that I liked.

120

And, you know, at the time, the public

public school, they used to fund the arts

121

and. Oh, that's weird, Right.

122

So like and so, like, I remember

I think I was in third grade,

123

so I was probably 7 or 8,

and they gathered

124

all of us into the,

125

the gymnasium.

126

And they had high schoolers come in

127

and high schoolers played a little,

you know, some music.

128

Oh, yeah, and.

129

Stuff like that.

130

And, and it was all of like,

131

so we want you to kind of

pick out an instrument you want to play.

132

Of course, most of the guys early,

the drums, the drums, the,

133

you know, all the guys go for the drums

and I the one guy I saw

134

was playing trumpet and I was like,

I want to play that.

135

So I played that, and I took that

136

basically through high school.

137

And I tried to get into college

with it, in Tampa, and I was no good.

138

Oh, no.

139

No, I mean, I was good, but

but like, you know, there's a, there's a

140

to be, to be a great player.

141

Is it's a whole other level guys.

142

You know.

143

And not to say I didn't have

that it's just or want of that.

144

It's, it's like.

145

It just wasn't in me

146

I think to try to, to try to become

a performer on that type of level.

147

Can you imagine if you had become

like a professional trumpeter?

148

I saw, like, dreams.

149

About it,

like to be like Chet Baker or like.

150

That's. Davis.

151

Or do you have a trumpet laying around?

152

I don't know, I, you know, I,

I wish I had stayed with it.

153

I did it basically up

until I was about 22 or so.

154

Okay.

155

So a good amount of years

I mean yes 15, 16 years.

156

And you know, it helped.

157

Because I ended up playing

all the brass instruments.

158

I ended up playing, cello and well,

159

I think that's it.

160

Yeah, that seems to be it.

161

I, I didn't get the one thing that I did

162

I did want to take,

which was piano lessons.

163

Oh, okay.

164

I was the one kid

165

that wanted to take the piano lessons,

and we didn't have money, so it wasn't,

166

you know. Oh, yeah.

167

Piano lessons were kind of expensive,

I remember.

168

Yeah. That's so funny.

169

I had I had a similar, they,

170

they did at my school too,

like, all the high schoolers,

171

whatever would come in

and you would to encourage you to.

172

Yeah, yeah. Have an instrument.

173

So that's so funny.

174

Well, going back to those albums,

that's really interesting.

175

They're kind of like,

like you said, a sign of the times.

176

But I always say that

I'm really jealous of the times

177

because you guys got to experience music

in a much different way

178

than it is nowadays with, you know, vinyl.

179

Just for the record,

however, like you mentioned,

180

moving pictures and back and black those

181

I had those records back and back to my

very first record I bought and Moving

182

Pictures was in there with, you know,

with it, Witch Hunt and Tom Sawyer.

183

Oh, man, what a great record, right?

184

Very short eight tunes,

I think, on that record.

185

Right, I think so. 8 or 9 is short.

186

Not a short record,

but a short song. Right?

187

Right, right, right. Yeah.

188

The the tracks alone.

189

So that was going to be actually

like another question

190

that I had had is because, you know, like,

I don't think you get to be a producer,

191

without playing an instrument

to, you know, I just think

192

that you have to have that love for it.

193

Well,

somebody should tell Rick Rubin then.

194

Oh, he doesn't play. Does he. Play?

195

Yeah.

You know that. Kind of voice teacher?

196

He's a mystery to me, man, I don't.

197

How does that guy do what he does?

You know.

198

I, you know, I, I think,

we'll probably get to this at some point.

199

Right.

But I think part of it is like you have

200

these iterations of

201

producers and some are just good at, like,

202

choosing songs and choosing,

203

like putting the, the package together.

204

And then there's the George Martin.

205

You know, so you have these and then you

have the myriad of people in between. And.

206

Yeah.

207

Like the people that are good

at arranging things and like.

208

Yeah.

209

Or you know just even, you know,

I've been around people that are just,

210

just facilitators

like they don't engineer, they don't,

211

you know, they don't do any of it,

but they're good at like putting together

212

people, project managers. Yeah.

213

I mean, I mean yeah, yeah, yeah.

214

But yeah, you know, I'm

not trying to be mean towards anybody.

215

It's just, you know, I feel like

and I feel like they're all valid because,

216

you know, the stuff that Rick Rubin's done

is some of the best work out there.

217

Well, it almost doesn't kind of matter.

218

How you get there is, you know,

so or what your method of doing it is.

219

So if you're able to do that, you know,

good on you.

220

So I 100% understand.

221

So nursing

plus is like just just different hats

222

you got to wear as a person

generally anyways. Right.

223

Wouldn't

you, wouldn't you say? Absolutely.

224

Most of it's psychology.

225

Being somebody's therapist. That's it.

226

That's most of it.

227

That's most of it.

228

It's like it's you don't want to

229

you have to know

how and when to push people

230

and you know when to, like,

231

let them kind of like, as the,

232

the, Will Ferrell skit,

explore the studio space and kind of thing

233

when they need to do that

and when it's time to say, look,

234

this is not.

235

This won't.

236

Work.

237

what was your first concert?

238

Oh, man.

239

Do you remember?

240

I don't remember, I just remember at the.

241

Can I try to get you?

242

Can I try to guess, since you already have

a parallel with my my early life.

243

Yeah, but it's not going to be.

You know what, Dan?

244

I promise you, it's not going to be rock.

245

Okay? Never mind. It's going to be.

246

It's going to be jazz

or something like that. Okay. Okay.

247

That's what I was going to say.

248

Journey Bryan Adams, bill maybe.

249

That I feel like

that was classic for everybody.

250

8283 and sure, no.

251

Never mind.

252

And that I.

253

Will say the the I,

I the best show I saw of in

254

that era was I got

well I saw two, I they were two,

255

one was the Genesis invisible

touch tour okay.

256

Which was.

257

Unbelievable. And the other one was you.

258

I saw you two on the,

Under Unforgettable fire.

259

Oh, okay. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah.

260

So it was. Amazing.

261

Both of those

sound like they're incredible.

262

That's what I'm saying.

263

It makes me a little sad to, like,

think about this.

264

Okay? So.

265

Okay, babe, you weren't born yet.

266

I know what the fuck.

267

Not my fault.

268

what first drew you to, like,

269

music production and kind of like,

what shaped you along that way?

270

So you tried to go to school for trumpet,

but that didn't work.

271

That didn't work.

272

You know, so then I was like, what?

273

What do I want to do?

274

You know, do I do I

275

do the thing

276

that, like, you know, your parent,

your mom or your dad want you to do,

277

which is get a business degree

or get this degree or get that degree.

278

And I was lucky enough that, like,

279

my grandfather, at the

280

he told me, you know, you've got to do

281

what you think you're going to be good at

and basically take the swing now.

282

Yeah.

283

Like do it because you have plenty,

plenty of time to change.

284

To change your mind.

285

Like if you

286

if you get to the end of your 20s

and something's not happening or it's not,

287

that's still plenty of time

to have some sort of career.

288

That was especially true back then.

289

I don't know if that's necessarily true

these days.

290

Like, I don't know that I would say

to a 20 someone that's starting off on a

291

whatever their journey is,

I would think, say, say to them now

292

you've got to be sort of sure

this is what you want to do because,

293

the ups, there's not as much upside

as there was for someone like me.

294

Yeah. You know, to be honest,

295

so I had a friend.

296

I was like in, you know,

297

doing a bit of doing a bit of college,

community college stuff.

298

And I had a friend

that was in this school,

299

called Full Sail Down in Florida.

300

I heard of. It. Yeah.

301

At the time,

they had just basically started,

302

I think,

or maybe it was a year or two into it

303

and it's a year course and you'd go do

this, you know, they teach you stuff.

304

And I went and,

305

they didn't really teach me much.

306

I mean, they teach you some fundamentals.

307

I mean, I think they if you go there

and you think you're going to come out

308

knowing a lot of stuff,

you don't know anything.

309

They taught fundamentals.

310

The one thing it absolutely gave me

was contacts.

311

Okay.

312

Because the way I got the gig in Memphis

313

was someone that I

was friends with in my class.

314

Got a gig at this studio,

315

okay, in Memphis, and he called me and,

you know,

316

I was doing the message on hold stuff,

and that really wasn't like.

317

Well, I didn't want to be there.

318

Sure.

319

And, he called me and he said,

320

do you want to be a runner?

321

Interesting.

322

So, you know, no money, blah, blah.

323

I said, well, I can't live up there.

324

He's like, well,

you can crash on my couch.

325

Okay, so I've got a place to stay.

326

And, when, when does this need to happen?

327

Next week.

328

It's always like. So. Mediately.

329

So it was immediate.

330

And so I did it

and I left and, my friend Travis, he,

331

he let me stay on his couch

for a couple of months,

332

but within a few days of being there, the,

333

they basically started

throwing me into sessions,

334

and I didn't know what the hell

I was doing.

335

Oh, interesting. Okay.

336

But it was great

because I was around old school people,

337

and people that had worked on a massive,

338

like, old school records and,

and so they knew the room.

339

So they were really patient and they knew

that I was new and all of that stuff.

340

Sure.

341

So they were very patient and,

you know, helped me out.

342

talk about like,

what it's like to go in there.

343

You said you

344

you didn't know what you were doing

though, but like, how important is kind of

345

just being there and being available

and watching these guys, these older guys

346

do what they do on this. Probably

the analog ear stuff, right? Yeah.

347

No, it was all analog back

then. So, yeah.

348

So you had to absorb all this stuff

around the spot and learn.

349

Probably just put your hands on it.

350

Right? Absolutely. Yeah.

351

And I couldn't say it any better

than you just did that, honestly.

352

It's it.

353

That's the thing that I feel bad

354

for a lot of people

getting into the studio system now is that

355

you used to, you know, you used to spend

356

a couple of weeks at minimum,

357

you know, tracking a record

and everything would be done.

358

It usually at the one studio

and you track the record,

359

you do the overdubs,

all of that and go away.

360

So you'd have days to get, you know,

or a couple of weeks

361

to get to know who the engineer was,

who the producer was, who the band was.

362

And you became somewhat friendly

with these people and,

363

yeah, you just got to learn

364

all these different workflows,

you know, depending on who came in.

365

And yeah, you know, that's

really good insight because and it teaches

366

you like you if you're paying attention

to like, what everybody's role is

367

or everybody's job is and how you,

how it all kind of works together.

368

So yeah, it's like

just to add to that, man,

369

because I come from a completely different

angle, man.

370

And I'm

just because I never went to school,

371

I never interned,

I never had an opportunity.

372

So I probably the simplest things

373

that took me years to learn,

probably somebody like you

374

probably could have said, Dan,

you know, you probably could just do this,

375

you know, and I'd be like, oh, I just wish

somebody would have told me that.

376

And I'm like, wasted.

377

I'm exhausting all the options before

I find the one that works for me at least.

378

Right?

379

You know, but you have that hands on thing

with all these other guys.

380

Well.

381

Again, it's just luck because, you know,

382

your experience is super valid, like,

you know, and it

383

and it helped you figure out ways

to work around things that like,

384

I may have just been lucky enough

to see somebody

385

do it in the room and, and be like,

oh, that's how you fix that.

386

Or at that.

387

At that moment.

388

At that moment, as opposed to like, oh,

I don't know what the hell is going on.

389

I've got to figure out

how to get around this thing.

390

So what are some of the people

that you've worked with before, like

391

did you have like, did you end up working

with like all the same people.

392

In, in Memphis or in Memphis?

393

A lot of it was with this one

particular, producer and engineer.

394

It was,

the producer's name was Jim Gaines.

395

And Jim, if there are any fans out

396

there, is probably most famous for,

Stevie Ray Vaughan.

397

Okay.

398

He, he worked with,

399

I think he did journey Motown engineering.

400

Or maybe he. Was an engineer producer,

I think.

401

I think he did

Huey Lewis in the news, too.

402

I was like.

403

Top tier, kind of like producer.

404

And then his engineer,

at least on the projects

405

that we did at this place,

was this guy Greg, our chili, I think.

406

And I wish I could. Wait, wait, wait,

I know Greg. Do you? Yeah.

407

He lives in town.

408

Is he here in town?

409

He is.

I would love to hook up with him again.

410

Oh, you know what? I got his number. I'm

going to give it to you.

411

And I said the same thing I met,

there was another engineer producer

412

that I came back around to seeing after

I worked with him when I was younger.

413

And his name was Greg La Donny and Greg

la Donny is famous for Toto.

414

I think Jackson like. Nice.

415

Total like super old school glass.

416

And call me a classic engineer.

417

Just one of those guys.

418

He's unfortunately past, but,

419

you know, we met back up

and this would have been,

420

you know, about

maybe about 10 or 15 years ago,

421

just probably a couple of years

before he passed.

422

And, you know, he doesn't remember me

and start talking to me.

423

And I'm like,

you don't remember me, you know, but,

424

but you are total asshole to me.

425

And he looks at you guys.

426

You're still in the business, aren't you?

427

And I was like, yeah.

428

That's so funny. So.

429

But it was

I mean, it was one of those things.

430

It's like,

you know, I appreciate kind of like

431

how they.

432

You know, somebody drives

433

you to, to do things in like,

yeah, you know, but.

434

I do a lot. Of it's a hazing.

435

Yeah I was yeah.

436

And like, maybe nobody hands you anything

for free type of attitude or you know.

437

Absolutely.

438

And the one thing I will say about Greg is

he was the first guy

439

because clearly one of my first gigs.

440

But, you know, we would be doing projects

on large format, you know, kind of SSL.

441

And I

didn't really know how to work the thing.

442

And he told me he's like, look,

as long as you save everything,

443

you know, do the recall.

444

He's like, you could stay here all night

and do stuff and mess around

445

just but make sure everything's back

the way it is in the morning,

446

you know, so you take opportunities like

that, you know, and you don't get sleep.

447

And you,

you stay at the studio or whatever it was.

448

But, you know, I'm always grateful

for those types of, you know, just.

449

Yeah, things that people gave you.

450

Any similarities

that still exist between now and then?

451

You know what I mean?

452

Like, do you think it's easier now

to do your job.

453

No, no, no.

454

It's way more difficult because,

It only used to take

455

and I'm not talking about the Lange

version of producing records.

456

I'm talking

about normal production of records.

457

It only used to take, you know, at most,

458

you know,

three weeks to six weeks to make a record.

459

Okay.

460

Now you've got it.

461

You know, your cut the record.

462

You can do things relatively quickly,

but then it's just

463

an insane amount of editing, okay.

464

And fixing.

465

And the thing that I find now

is that we have a lot

466

less, kind of

467

like, it's not inspiration down.

468

What is it?

469

It's kind of like the, the thing

when somebody is playing something

470

and they play something unexpected

471

and it's like, well, that's

better than the part that was written.

472

You something that's captured,

it's spontaneous.

473

It's it's like we don't really

have that anymore because,

474

you know, you're you're

trying to get in and out of a facility.

475

You know, even if you come to, you know,

476

like even the studio,

like you guys have here, it's like

477

everybody does these things.

478

And Nashville's well known for this.

479

They do the the ten, the the ten,

the two in the six or whatever the hell

480

it is, you know, and they everything's

just really regimented.

481

And can you,

can you tell us what the tended to and sex

482

is for people that are still.

483

Yeah. In Nashville

they still do sessions.

484

Okay.

485

So, you know, you'll attend the two

at 2 to 2 five or whatever it is, ten to.

486

One, like your time to. Five.

487

Yeah.

488

And because back in the day, these,

these guys were just kind of like

489

they'd have it, you know,

the first session would be in one studio,

490

then across town,

491

they'd be in another studio

and there'd be about an hour in between.

492

So they could get between studios.

493

And say, okay, that's interesting.

Yeah. Okay.

494

So yeah, so, so in a lot of ways there's

more editing with what you're doing now.

495

It sounds like you're saying

496

and is it just because there's like,

is everybody saving everything now?

497

Whereas like when you're doing analog

like you're

498

kind of cutting things at the time

and like you're being more precise?

499

I wouldn't say that.

500

I would say

The way that records are made now,

501

they're made to basically sound perfect.

502

And a lot of the records that we love

503

and a lot of the records

that even the kids, you know,

504

been working,

505

you know, you work with 20 year olds

and they're listening

506

to stuff from the 90s

when they were listening stuff,

507

you know, that, like their parents

listened to.

508

And that stuff wasn't pro tooled to

holy hell.

509

You know, we still did editing.

510

I mean, they're still like, I remember

working on a record we used to shave

511

beats, you know, which is basically, you

know, yeah, you know, pro tool editing.

512

But it was still done in a human way.

513

It wasn't done in a visual,

you know, constructive like.

514

Yeah. You know.

515

I think that's really important.

516

That's not something I would have

517

necessarily thought about,

although that makes complete sense.

518

And I think that's something that,

519

you know,

that's one reason why people love vinyl.

520

Another thing, two maybe hours.

521

What do you feel about,

like having so many options on the table

522

and being like, okay,

I can try this all day long?

523

Well, you know what I'm saying?

524

Yeah, I copy

and pasting new things and endlessly.

525

I ascribe kind of to the,

526

you know, kind of thing of like,

you limit yourself, right.

527

You know, I think that that's.

528

Which is hard to do, though for me, it's

very.

529

It's very hard to do.

530

And I think, you know, the records

I don't do a lot of producing,

531

but the records that I end up producing,

532

I have like a

533

generally a

534

concept

of like sonically where I want to go

535

and then so that boxes me in

536

to like what I can do

or what I'm going to do.

537

And, you know, that doesn't mean

that I don't break out of that or I

538

or I have to adhere to it, but it just

gives me a kind of like a grounding,

539

you know, something fundamental

to kind of and hold on to.

540

taking it back for a second,

like you being in Memphis and,

541

you know, kind of cutting your teeth

into everything

542

that you didn't learn in school and just,

you know, being in it.

543

And of submersed,

where was your next step from there?

544

From there I went to Los Angeles

545

and was with the guy,

546

Gary Belz, who owned Kiva,

which became House of Blues,

547

Studios, which then they also ended up

having the House of Blues.

548

Yeah, blah, blah, blah.

549

So Gary moved me from that

550

studio to his studio

in Los Angeles, in Encino.

551

Okay.

552

And I was there, I think, for four years.

553

Okay. Yeah.

554

And we're talking the time frame

early 90s and.

555

Yeah, that would have been like 92. Okay.

556

the studio

I was in, it was, it was a home studio.

557

And back in the day, home

studios were not welcome,

558

like they would try to actively

shut them down.

559

Recording studios in the 90s were actively

trying to shut down all the home

560

recording studios because they felt

it was taking business away.

561

But we ended up pulling in giant,

562

you know, acts and stuff like that,

mainly because the house itself,

563

the family lived upstairs,

but the studio, was downstairs.

564

Pretty big place, overlooked.

565

The it was up in the top of the hill,

566

overlooking into the Encino

or the San Fernando Valley.

567

And the home used to be owned by Tito

Jackson.

568

Oh, wow.

569

So, you know.

570

You're getting the tissue.

571

And the tissues, right?

572

But so it was a.

573

Well, Stewart, like,

it was a no joke studio.

574

Because if you're going to have a studio.

575

Yeah, that Michael Jackson's

going to show up too at some point.

576

It's got to be decent.

577

It wasn't huge,

but you could cut drums in it.

578

You can, you know,

all of that type of stuff.

579

here's the question.

580

Van Halen or Van Hagar?

581

Van Halen, dude, all the way.

582

Van Hagar really?

583

They had songs.

584

Okay.

585

Dude, that's the argument I feel.

586

They had songs.

587

They did have songs.

588

You know what you think that's

because of Sammy Hagar being in the band?

589

Some fucking lutely. That guy can sing.

590

Oh, he's an. Amazing sack guy can sing.

591

I'm not taking anything away from Dave,

you know, because Dave was a showman.

592

But what about this?

Let me pose this to you.

593

I'm going to get killed.

594

Like the comments are going to be like,

this is probably.

595

Gonna be split.

It's probably gonna be split. I'm.

596

I'm okay.

597

I love both.

598

I love because I bought 1984

and I loved it.

599

All right.

600

And then I'll get killed because everybody

said, well, it's die down.

601

Oh, yeah. You can't win.

You can't win with this.

602

So here's my argument

against that position.

603

Let me tell me, let me, let me tell you,

604

David Lee Roth

getting handed a bunch of riffs from Eddie

605

Van Halen which were out of this

world, off times, off tempo

606

arranging these

607

songs that were more progressive

than a lot of other bands in their vision.

608

Roth. Right.

609

And but making sense of them into these

610

rock anthems where,

you know what I'm saying, David?

611

Or do you think?

612

Absolutely, absolutely.

613

Why do you think. It's him

and not not because it was Templeman.

614

They were working.

615

Oh, yeah.

616

Yeah, yeah. Ted Templeman right? Yeah.

617

I think Dave Lee Roth was responsible

for the whole vision of, like, being.

618

Dude, that's a cool riff. Let's do that.

619

And then he'll scat over it and make sense

of all these crazy off time.

620

Like they had shuffles,

they had all these same shit, right?

621

Yep. Yeah.

622

And then Sammy Hagar comes in

and now it's four on the floor,

623

almost like to a click like, yeah,

but great pop writing.

624

Yeah.

But I grew up on the on the raw thing.

625

So I'm kind of biased.

626

I will say, know I

627

I could probably hum the melodies to you.

628

Right?

That's how that's how good they are.

629

Yeah, yeah. No I get that even. Even

630

I'll get killed for this even 0812.

631

There's some great songs on that one.

632

What what band was Sammy Hagar in before

he was in?

633

He was so much solo.

634

But Montrose. Yeah. Okay. That's

what I'm thinking of.

635

Okay. Yeah.

636

So I mean. He had Montrose was amazing.

637

Man. That was before

I get killed on that too.

638

No, no, I mean or not,

that's a great band.

639

You know what?

640

I think this is a really good time

to pause.

641

And I think that I'm going

to get some tools together because this

642

is the part of the show where I'm going

to teach you how to make a cocktail.

643

Awesome.

I think this is going to be great.

644

And I know you said you don't drink a lot,

but I think that's it's an honor

645

to for you to come in

and share this cocktail.

646

And we're going to be using this

black sheep tequila.

647

Show the camera. Yes.

648

Show the camera that we are gifted this

by our friends over at Black Sheep.

649

This is their reposado.

650

And we're going to be making, like,

a blueberry margarita.

651

Awesome. Yeah. So have you. Guys

been drinking out of that?

652

Looks like my big mistake. Okay.

653

All right, we'll be right back. Oh,

654

hey, this

is Yasmin Khan, and you are watching

655

or listening to Nashville on the rocks.

656

Okay.

657

Awesome.

658

We are back.

659

And we have all of our setup here.

660

So what we are going to be using,

I'm going to have the ingredients.

661

I'm going to list them all in front of us.

662

So how this is going to be

a blueberry margarita.

663

I think it's going to be really good.

664

And we're using black sheep tequila

like I had mentioned before break.

665

So they are located

their headquarters are in Nashville.

666

Check them out.

667

They have a really nice repo, a

really nice anejo and a blanco, of course.

668

So we're going to make this cocktail,

in the tin first.

669

Then we're going to shake it.

So this is going to be a lot of fun.

670

Are you a big cocktail maker at home?

671

No no, no.

672

Okay. All right.

673

Are you more of a beer, man?

674

No. Okay.

675

Just, whiskey. With.

676

All right.

677

Okay. Whiskey rocks, whatever.

678

That works perfectly.

679

Okay. So what we're going to do

is we're going to.

680

I'm going to make two drinks in this tin

right here.

681

I'm going to make yours in dance, and

then you're going to make my drink okay.

682

Okay.

683

So I'm going to obviously

double up on the recipe.

684

But to start I'm going to use

the Black Sheep Reposado tequila.

685

And I'm going to pour three ounces of it

into this large tin.

686

So using the measurement here,

687

babe, I'm waiting for your famous.

688

Yeah.

689

Perfect.

690

I'm working on this.

691

Working on that.

692

Okay, so I've got three ounces of tequila

right in here.

693

I'm going to pass this bottle to you.

694

Thank you. And then you're going to.

695

Do you see this first line here

696

that is an ounce and a half. Yes.

697

You're going to pour the tequila

698

right into that pool,

into the jigger, up into the line.

699

That's an ounce and a half.

That's an ounce and a half.

700

And you're going to pour it

right into that tin.

701

Beautiful.

702

All right, here we go.

703

Now we're

yeah I know. Yes, we have to share it.

704

Unfortunately I gave my other one away and

I still just haven't gotten another one

705

okay. And then we're going to put I'm

going to put it.

706

In the tab. Yeah.

707

All right.

708

So you're going to pour three quarters

of an ounce of this triple stick in there.

709

I'm going to pour an ounce and a half.

710

So pouring it now

and basically I'm going to flip this over.

711

So this is an ounce.

712

So there's another little line up there.

713

The first one to the top.

714

And you're going to pour that in there.

715

The one that's just below the top.

716

Just below the top. Yeah.

717

So the measurements are already there.

718

So it's the one ounce that a half ounce

three quarters.

719

And yes beautiful.

720

All right. Perfect perfect.

721

All right.

722

Now I'm going to knock and roll rock

and roll I'm going to move these over.

723

So I have this blueberry simple

that I made.

724

And it was very easy.

725

I did just use a little bit of sugar

into the hot water.

726

And then I basically just

put blueberries in there.

727

And then I let it's fresh and frozen.

728

But they were fresh.

729

I just froze them after a while

and they used. To be fresh.

730

It has to be fresh.

731

So, I just let them steep for

732

about a half hour

until I had this nice, lovely color.

733

And then I took

them out. So I'm going to put

734

two ounces

735

into this.

736

I think that's going to be about right.

737

And then that means you're going

to put an ounce into yours.

738

Beautiful I know I literally

739

have like legit

like kitchen tools that I'm using, right?

740

I think like my measurement cup.

741

My thing is going to be messed up.

742

Know your font your spine.

743

You're just going to be great.

744

Actually,

you can put a little more in there

745

just a little bit more

because you're going to the very top.

746

Yeah. Perfect.

Oh I love it. The free core.

747

No that's great okay. It's good.

748

You're doing great.

749

And then so this is fresh squeezed lemon.

750

And she was. Watching me.

751

Dad I was I was like I. Don't she.

752

Wasn't near me.

753

She wasn't giving me, you know

letting me have my own experience.

754

She was like checking it out and saying,

this, this guy's jacked it.

755

I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute.

756

Yes, he likes Van Hagar and my cocktail.

757

Hahaha.

758

So funny.

759

All right, so you are going to be putting

760

okay, you're going to be putting

how am I doing this?

761

Yeah, okay.

762

I'm going to do a little bit more

and then you're going to be filling up

763

to the second line again.

764

So an ounce and a half. Of what.

765

This lemon and lime juice mix.

766

Okay. Just for the second line.

767

Sorry. No. The sea. Okay. First time.

768

The first line.

769

Yes. The first line that you see,

that's an ounce and a half.

770

Boom.

771

And then we're going to pour it

right in there.

772

All right.

773

Lovely.

774

Yeah, babe, don't

775

forget to tell what you're doing

for the people that don't have video.

776

Oh, yes. For everybody that's watching us

you can see this.

777

But for those of you that are listening.

778

So basically my ingredients are, for each

cocktail is an ounce, a half a tequila,

779

three quarter ounces of triple check,

an ounce

780

and a half of lime juice

and an ounce of this blueberry.

781

Simple. Okay,

so now we have all of our ingredients.

782

We're going to take the small tin.

783

We're going to put it on

top of the big ten.

784

We're going to just smack it a little bit.

785

So that's a nice like seal.

786

And then we're going to shake these

for about like 15 20s.

787

All right okay. Ready. Go.

788

My favorite part.

789

It's every time.

790

You're doing a great job

791

then you shouldn't take Moroccan

792

chocolate and Morocco.

793

Getting cold.

794

Right.

795

That's so so.

796

Technical challenges

797

okay. Stop there.

798

All right. Perfect.

799

Now now it's going it's

going to be a little bit of a seal on it.

800

There we go.

801

All right. Perfect.

802

Cool. Smells lovely. Smells very citrusy.

803

Okay I can smell it over here.

804

Yeah I know right.

805

And we're going to take the strainer and

we're going to put it on top of the tin.

806

And then we're going to pour the contents

807

that are in the tin over the ice.

808

All right.

809

God I hope this doesn't suck.

810

I say that every time, but it's like.

811

I and I always enjoy it.

812

And I'm not lying to you.

I tell you if that. Okay, good.

813

All right, well, here we go.

814

So I have to sideshow pour it all.

815

Yeah, pour the whole thing in.

816

I'm going to be hurting tomorrow.

817

Perhaps, but we're going to do it now.

818

And I'm going to garnish that.

819

Beautiful. Okay. So this is your.

820

Thank you.

821

Thank you

I'm going to take the one that you made.

822

It looks that same color.

823

Looks like

the exact same color. We're halfway there.

824

We're halfway there.

825

There you go.

826

All right Howard,

thank you for coming on the show.

827

Cheers. Cheers.

828

Cheers.

829

All right. Let's. Good times.

830

All right, let's do this.

831

I like it, I like it, I like it.

832

It's very fresh. Summary.

833

It doesn't taste like there's any alcohol.

834

No, it does not.

835

Which is you.

836

It is dangerous.

837

I would

838

I would absolutely drink this entire thing

really quickly after mowing the grass.

839

And then we hammered. Yeah.

840

No, it's it's

going to sneak up for a outside drink,

841

but something it does not taste

like there's any alcohol in here.

842

a little story.

843

When I met Lisa, man,

when I first met her, I was.

844

I was hanging out with my old friends

in Rochester and my buddy Dave Bonds.

845

I want to say hi, Dave, but.

846

So this story, Dude,

I got so wasted because I never drink.

847

And I ended up in his lawn

and he was living like.

848

And his mom was living with him.

So I wake up, though,

849

I crawl back into the couch,

and I and and I wake up and I'm.

850

There's a dog on the couch with me,

and I wake up.

851

I don't know where anybody is.

852

I know his mom lives there somewhere.

853

And, there's a note on

the fridge and it says, mom,

854

there's a guy in his lawn.

855

He's a buddy of mine.

856

His name is Dan. Hahahahaha.

857

how do you feel about Nashville

versus LA in terms of like,

858

do you see a difference, like doing what

you do, like producing engineering?

859

Do you see a difference with the scene or

860

You know, just because of what I do, it's

more of

861

like the culture of the studio

is just a bit different

862

between, you know,

the two areas of the country here.

863

It's, it's a, it's a bit more,

864

I'll start by saying, first of all,

the assistants in LA are amazing.

865

So I'm this is not a dig

or anything against them.

866

It's just the assistants here,

867

like it's

almost like you don't need an engineer.

868

Because they're so good here. Yeah.

869

And you know, and

870

especially you know at places

like Sound Emporium and Blackbird and

871

you know they're all just really top notch

on top of it kind of guys.

872

And that's not to say that people in LA

weren't that way.

873

It's just it's just how it's run.

874

It's a how it's run

more than the actual people.

875

You know I think if you

if you swapped places, you know,

876

if you had those people swap places,

they'd still be great.

877

It's just it's a culture.

878

It's a culture thing.

879

And maybe it's one of those situations

where, yeah, they just they're just

880

learning differently or have been around

it differently or whatever.

881

Is it more like a conveyor belt feel here

where you have to be fast

882

and you have to be knowledgeable?

883

I would yeah, I would, I would absolutely

say that it's, it's along that way line.

884

And you know, it's not to say the conveyor

belt thing is bad.

885

It's just it's kind of like what

I alluded to earlier with the, the,

886

the ten, the to the six kind of thing.

887

It's because yeah, that's how this, this

city was built upon sessions like that.

888

And again, they used to have that way back

in the day in L.A.,

889

but the kind of the union kind of gap

I think got pushed out.

890

So but they kept the union here. So. Okay.

891

You know, it kind of that's interesting.

892

Yeah. It's still kind of stays that way.

893

we've touched base a little bit

894

that Smashing Pumpkins is one of the bands

that kind of just keeps coming back.

895

Like you've worked with them a lot,

896

you know,

can you just tell me some like really,

897

you know, interesting things

about working with them?

898

I mean,

899

obviously like you've done a few albums

like you probably know the members

900

really well, but like, is there an energy

that you have working with them?

901

Do you think that kind of stands apart?

902

You know, that you all enjoy?

903

Let me have a drink before I answer.

904

Some chili.

905

Yeah, I I've, I've worked with

906

the band and primarily Billy,

907

since 96.

908

Oh, wow. That's a. Really long.

909

I mean, there was

there was a stretch of time,

910

probably about 7 or 8 years,

where I didn't work with them at all

911

because I had a job at Capitol

and I was doing other things, obviously.

912

But the things that they do or how,

913

like they still go

at the recording process

914

of they write, they basically write

the songs in the studio.

915

And it's not because.

916

Of the level that they're at.

917

There's no rush to do it.

918

So it's not like you have to get into

the studio and you've got the one day,

919

it's like for the last record

we did, we did.

920

I think we did three weeks

921

at Sound Emporium here in town,

and this is just writing.

922

So we did three weeks of that.

923

But that was also after

we were up in Chicago,

924

and Billy was sketching out ideas

and just putting ideas down.

925

Right.

926

He would do a bunch of that type of stuff.

927

Then we figured out

what would be good, come down here.

928

Then they they go through all those ideas,

929

then they start writing other ideas

on top of that.

930

Right.

931

And that's

just kind of like the first round.

932

I think that happened twice.

933

So that's just the kind of the

that's not even pre pro

934

at that point because it's

just yeah writing kind of stage of it. So

935

those those are some of the

you know that's

936

how a band like that

is very different than a lot of bands.

937

Yeah I can see that because you know,

you get into like priorities time.

938

You know, they've all,

939

you know, relatively

have been together for several years.

940

So you know,

you get used to how people work.

941

Yeah. That's interesting.

942

So is there a different dynamic

when people are writing in the studio?

943

Like what does that do for you?

944

Like, are you part of that process

or are you just kind of me personally? No.

945

Okay.

I mean, you're. Just kind of hanging out.

946

Well, because I'm an engineer,

947

you know, just getting all the sounds

together, making sure everything's

948

put down, you know,

you have to kind of be on top of it for,

949

like, what ideas happened when.

950

Sure. And a lot of it, it's not just.

951

It's not even just writing down.

952

Will this happen here?

953

It's like

954

sometimes it's

remembering things that even they

955

it's not necessarily will forget,

956

but like notating things

that you think are good.

957

Yeah. That they may not realize is good.

958

And that way you can go back

later and say, well,

959

this little bit here

was actually pretty cool.

960

Maybe we could work on this a bit or.

961

Yeah, you know, maybe this could

maybe this could fit in somehow.

962

turning around to someone

and telling them, like,

963

we need to go in this direction

because this is going to work, you know?

964

So do you think that that's something

that kind of came

965

natural to you, or is that something

you had to develop over time?

966

It's a bit of both. I mean, I think,

967

you know, I'll be clear

968

with some, with a band like the pumpkins,

969

there's already a clear, defined course.

970

For like a vision of it.

971

Yeah. And that's, that's Billy's thing.

972

They like,

you can say well I think this is good,

973

I think this is, I don't think

974

that this is an avenue to go down

and he'll take that upon.

975

But ultimately it's his.

976

Decision, his.

977

Vision of his band.

978

Right.

979

I've totally lost my thread.

980

Oh, no.

981

I was just absolutely awful.

982

Like, is it something that was easy

for you to kind of navigate?

983

Yeah.

984

So I, I think.

985

Possibly because of how I came up,

986

I was able to observe

987

how certain people got things across

988

without,

989

the artist taking offense.

990

And, and that changes for who,

who the artist is.

991

Yeah.

992

You know, so, like,

if you're working with, you know,

993

some, you know,

994

maybe a new band,

you kind of have to be a bit

995

more coddling and just be like,

now, look, this is a really good idea.

996

I think, you know, blah, blah, blah.

997

Let's try this.

998

Let's,

you know, it's more about trying things.

999

If I'm working with somebody, like, again,

like the pumpkins,

00:46:43,208 --> 00:46:46,625

it's like there's already

kind of like a spelled out thing.

00:46:46,625 --> 00:46:51,500

So there's not as much wiggle room

in terms of like, sure.

00:46:51,500 --> 00:46:52,791

You know what I mean? Like, because.

00:46:52,791 --> 00:46:55,375

It's not like it's not like a band

like that is all of a sudden

00:46:55,375 --> 00:46:57,500

going to start using breakbeats.

00:46:57,500 --> 00:46:59,791

And yeah.

There's going to be a rap in the song.

00:46:59,791 --> 00:47:01,083

Right, right, right.

00:47:01,083 --> 00:47:05,125

So you know, and then there's,

there's people like Katie Cole,

00:47:05,125 --> 00:47:09,375

it's like I know

that like with her I can say

00:47:10,625 --> 00:47:12,791

because we have such a long working

relationship

00:47:12,791 --> 00:47:15,666

I can say I don't like this song.

00:47:15,666 --> 00:47:19,625

Or I'm not like I don't,

I don't get it right,

00:47:20,166 --> 00:47:24,666

you know, or this needs to be rewritten

because this, this isn't working for me.

00:47:24,875 --> 00:47:28,416

Well because a lot of it, you know,

I mean a lot of outside of like

00:47:28,541 --> 00:47:31,541

sonically what you're doing is just

00:47:32,416 --> 00:47:33,916

personal, like interpersonal.

00:47:33,916 --> 00:47:35,750

You're working with people every day.

00:47:35,750 --> 00:47:39,541

So it's it's a lot of probably

communication and, you know,

00:47:39,541 --> 00:47:43,833

reading the artist and obviously

you want to bring out the best in them.

00:47:44,083 --> 00:47:48,916

So it sounds like, you know,

you're really good at doing that.

00:47:48,916 --> 00:47:52,625

And I feel like that's,

that's a great skill that

00:47:53,833 --> 00:47:56,375

any producer or engineer should have.

00:47:56,375 --> 00:47:58,791

You know, it's.

Probably like to be successful.

00:47:58,791 --> 00:48:01,916

I think you kind of have to have that

in you, you know, like that,

00:48:01,958 --> 00:48:04,958

that kind of diplomatic way about you,

00:48:05,041 --> 00:48:08,833

where you're not offensive to the,

you know, some people's egos

00:48:08,833 --> 00:48:12,750

kind of get hurt a little bit

just by a few words that you didn't mean

00:48:12,750 --> 00:48:16,333

to sound hurtful, but people get weird

when that red light goes on, right?

00:48:16,333 --> 00:48:18,125

You push that red button.

00:48:18,125 --> 00:48:19,958

Yeah. Talk about that, man.

00:48:19,958 --> 00:48:22,416

About how I didn't mean to hijack this.

00:48:22,416 --> 00:48:24,541

Lisa? No, please. Yeah.

00:48:24,541 --> 00:48:27,333

I love the conversation with you guys,

you know?

00:48:27,333 --> 00:48:30,625

Well, I might have to get nerdy

nerd it out now.

00:48:30,625 --> 00:48:32,250

Yeah. Have my time. All right.

00:48:33,583 --> 00:48:33,791

Yeah.

00:48:33,791 --> 00:48:37,375

Talk about, some of those those processes

when you when you.

00:48:37,375 --> 00:48:40,375

Because, like you said,

everybody's different in the studio.

00:48:40,500 --> 00:48:44,166

And you can recognize

what people may need emotionally,

00:48:44,166 --> 00:48:45,875

like the support, like a therapist.

00:48:45,875 --> 00:48:48,250

Talk about that side of things.

00:48:48,250 --> 00:48:50,166

Not just being a guy

that can get the tones.

00:48:50,166 --> 00:48:53,916

But what is it like to connect

with these artists, you know,

00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,291

and when they're so different

from project to project?

00:48:57,333 --> 00:48:59,166

Wow. That's that's a tough one there.

00:48:59,166 --> 00:49:02,166

Because, you know, it's not like you're

00:49:03,791 --> 00:49:07,416

it's not like you're coming in

to these relationships most of the time

00:49:07,416 --> 00:49:12,458

where you've known the people

for months or a year beforehand,

00:49:12,458 --> 00:49:17,375

it's usually a few days before

maybe a few weeks at the best.

00:49:17,375 --> 00:49:20,458

You know, if you've done pre-production,

you know, so you've got to be able

00:49:20,458 --> 00:49:23,541

to really read people kind of quickly.

00:49:23,541 --> 00:49:25,416

And I don't mean that in a bad way.

00:49:25,416 --> 00:49:27,208

Like, you know,

00:49:27,208 --> 00:49:30,333

you know, because a lot of people say, I,

I can read you, but they don't.

00:49:30,625 --> 00:49:33,833

They mean it kind of like,

you know, you know, in a negative way.

00:49:33,833 --> 00:49:34,833

Yeah. In a negative way.

00:49:34,833 --> 00:49:38,083

It's like you start to see, like,

what are the things that like set

00:49:38,583 --> 00:49:41,375

certain people off especially, you know,

00:49:41,375 --> 00:49:44,500

if you think about anybody that's

been in a band, you know, you'll have,

00:49:45,250 --> 00:49:49,583

you know, the face usually is the singer

and you know, the good looking guy.

00:49:49,583 --> 00:49:50,750

And then, you know,

00:49:50,750 --> 00:49:54,791

the drummer will have opinions

about what the guitar player is doing,

00:49:54,791 --> 00:49:59,125

and the bass player will have opinions

about what the guitar players playing. And

00:50:00,458 --> 00:50:01,375

then you'll figure out

00:50:01,375 --> 00:50:04,416

that maybe, oh, the bass player

is actually the sensitive one.

00:50:04,500 --> 00:50:06,708

And gets his feelings hurt.

00:50:06,708 --> 00:50:09,041

And you know,

so you've got to be able to like work out

00:50:09,041 --> 00:50:12,833

and work work around

and see not play people against each other

00:50:12,833 --> 00:50:15,875

but just be really kind of honest

with like all right.

00:50:16,625 --> 00:50:19,625

Yeah I need to be this way with you and

00:50:19,875 --> 00:50:22,041

so and so look, we need to do this.

00:50:22,041 --> 00:50:27,000

And usually what it comes down to

any almost every argument in the studio is

00:50:27,416 --> 00:50:31,833

because somebody feels like

they're not being heard, you know, so

00:50:31,833 --> 00:50:35,375

it's like if you're a bass player, it's

like he's trying to communicate something.

00:50:35,375 --> 00:50:37,125

I think this part should be

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:50:38,125 --> 00:50:40,291

We'll just play it.

00:50:40,291 --> 00:50:41,250

Yeah.

00:50:41,250 --> 00:50:43,916

Write it instead of like arguing about it.

00:50:43,916 --> 00:50:47,083

Just try it and play it because it takes,

you know,

00:50:47,541 --> 00:50:51,583

how long a song, 3.5 minutes of your

your time.

00:50:51,583 --> 00:50:53,708

Just to. Try to try something.

00:50:53,708 --> 00:50:57,708

You know, so it's, it's about,

you know, allowing people

00:50:59,041 --> 00:51:02,041

just the ability to explore stuff.

00:51:03,416 --> 00:51:06,625

if the music industry doesn't exist

the way that it once used to,

00:51:06,833 --> 00:51:10,416

do you think that gives people

more freedom or like does

00:51:10,416 --> 00:51:11,458

that, is that more hindrance?

00:51:11,458 --> 00:51:12,875

Are there different challenges?

00:51:12,875 --> 00:51:15,541

It's just different challenges.

00:51:15,541 --> 00:51:17,583

I think,

00:51:17,583 --> 00:51:19,791

you know, you have a

I think you have a few camps on this.

00:51:19,791 --> 00:51:22,958

You have people that say that like the

00:51:23,541 --> 00:51:26,250

creation

of like Pro Tools in the bedroom producer.

00:51:26,250 --> 00:51:30,125

And all of this has been, you know,

makes it makes it so much easier for art

00:51:30,125 --> 00:51:30,833

to get out there.

00:51:31,791 --> 00:51:32,333

But it also

00:51:32,333 --> 00:51:35,416

makes it

so that there's a lot of really bad art.

00:51:35,416 --> 00:51:36,500

And I hate saying

00:51:36,500 --> 00:51:39,583

stuff like, there's bad

art because that's all subjective as well.

00:51:40,291 --> 00:51:46,750

And I would never not want somebody

to create.

00:51:48,166 --> 00:51:49,500

Yeah.

00:51:49,500 --> 00:51:50,000

Even if you don't.

00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:50,791

Yeah.

00:51:50,791 --> 00:51:56,458

Even if, even if it's even

if it's subjectively not what people like.

00:51:56,875 --> 00:51:58,833

That doesn't

mean that you shouldn't create.

00:51:58,833 --> 00:52:01,833

Does it mean that it shouldn't

take up space

00:52:02,666 --> 00:52:05,583

for people that are actively

00:52:05,583 --> 00:52:08,583

trying to do it?

00:52:09,208 --> 00:52:11,416

As a, as an actual career?

00:52:11,416 --> 00:52:15,208

I think that that is something

that you could argue for.

00:52:18,208 --> 00:52:21,791

Yeah, I it's so yeah, that that's probably

00:52:21,791 --> 00:52:25,583

the biggest, the, the biggest challenge

to how we make records now.

00:52:25,583 --> 00:52:29,208

Whereas back in the day,

obviously it was a studio system.

00:52:30,125 --> 00:52:32,458

And, you know, I'm

damn sure you see this all the time.

00:52:32,458 --> 00:52:35,500

You know,

you see posts of like, somebody,

00:52:36,166 --> 00:52:38,750

bashing on record labels and everything,

and it's on that.

00:52:38,750 --> 00:52:41,750

Look, I'm not here to say record

labels are good or anything like that,

00:52:41,875 --> 00:52:45,958

but they did give a lot of people

a lot of opportunities,

00:52:45,958 --> 00:52:50,000

and a lot of the music that we love came

through the studio systems.

00:52:50,166 --> 00:52:50,500

Right.

00:52:50,500 --> 00:52:54,416

And quite frankly, you know,

if you think about it like Motown,

00:52:54,750 --> 00:52:58,916

where you think about Stax, you know, like

that was literally the studio

00:52:59,708 --> 00:53:02,875

and the they they had the musicians.

00:53:03,541 --> 00:53:04,166

Right?

00:53:04,166 --> 00:53:07,041

So it's like, yeah, you know,

you had the Wrecking Crew,

00:53:07,041 --> 00:53:08,750

you had, the Funk Brothers

00:53:08,750 --> 00:53:12,500

and those guys,

they were all built into that whole thing,

00:53:13,125 --> 00:53:15,708

you know,

so you wouldn't have like some of these

00:53:15,708 --> 00:53:18,958

great classic things

without, you know, some of that.

00:53:20,583 --> 00:53:22,958

Dan, to add some few more questions.

00:53:22,958 --> 00:53:25,458

Next. I'm

waiting for you to get an opening.

00:53:25,458 --> 00:53:27,083

Babe. Jeez, you're hogging the mic.

00:53:27,083 --> 00:53:29,291

I'm taking over.

00:53:29,291 --> 00:53:32,291

I want to know as,

00:53:32,500 --> 00:53:35,500

as a guy who creates music

and is in love with the whole process.

00:53:36,166 --> 00:53:36,708

What?

00:53:36,708 --> 00:53:41,833

What do you think

makes a good artist or good song?

00:53:42,166 --> 00:53:43,500

Like what?

00:53:43,500 --> 00:53:46,666

What captures your ear or eye about?

00:53:47,125 --> 00:53:48,500

This is a good piece of art.

00:53:48,500 --> 00:53:51,500

Or we should pursue this.

00:53:52,208 --> 00:53:53,791

God damn,

00:53:53,791 --> 00:53:56,750

that's a tough question.

00:53:56,750 --> 00:53:57,791

So layered.

00:53:57,791 --> 00:53:58,333

You know.

00:53:58,333 --> 00:54:01,333

It's funny because, like, I, I

00:54:01,791 --> 00:54:04,791

it's not that I'm.

00:54:06,291 --> 00:54:06,708

Blessed

00:54:06,708 --> 00:54:09,708

to only work on things

that I only want to work on,

00:54:09,833 --> 00:54:12,833

because I wish I was working on

a lot more stuff, quite frankly.

00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:15,333

But I,

00:54:15,333 --> 00:54:18,000

I just don't work on things

that I don't want to work on.

00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:24,833

So like I if I again and so it comes down

to and I'm talking more about production,

00:54:24,833 --> 00:54:30,250

not when I'm doing a recording

or mixing like those are gigs and right.

00:54:30,375 --> 00:54:31,250

You know, I don't.

00:54:31,250 --> 00:54:36,833

But with, with the,

the producer side of it, for me, I just

00:54:37,958 --> 00:54:41,375

it emotionally has to like move me.

00:54:42,041 --> 00:54:46,041

And I look at,

I try to look at everything in terms of,

00:54:46,791 --> 00:54:49,791

and this is where

I'm going to get sound old and boring,

00:54:50,916 --> 00:54:55,583

but I want my records

to give me the emotional impact

00:54:55,583 --> 00:54:59,833

that listening to something like,

revolver gives me.

00:55:00,708 --> 00:55:03,375

Whereas every song

00:55:03,375 --> 00:55:06,375

is like an island unto itself, right?

00:55:06,833 --> 00:55:07,250

Right.

00:55:07,250 --> 00:55:10,666

Or like really anything

rubber soul forward,

00:55:10,666 --> 00:55:14,000

like every song

was just kind of like I'm on a different.

00:55:14,416 --> 00:55:17,958

Yeah, I'm on another trip, I'm

on, you know, a whole other thing.

00:55:18,541 --> 00:55:19,666

That's so. Cool. Yeah.

00:55:19,666 --> 00:55:22,541

So that that's how I kind of like.

00:55:22,541 --> 00:55:24,291

View the music. View the music.

00:55:24,291 --> 00:55:26,958

Because, like, you know, I,

00:55:26,958 --> 00:55:29,958

I don't think I could work.

00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:31,875

Well, I don't know if I could, but.

00:55:34,291 --> 00:55:37,291

You've got, you've got to be able

00:55:38,083 --> 00:55:40,125

to take your music

00:55:40,125 --> 00:55:43,875

and be willing to break it apart

00:55:44,458 --> 00:55:47,458

to see if it holds up.

00:55:47,916 --> 00:55:49,333

Does that make sense? Yeah.

00:55:49,333 --> 00:55:52,333

Yeah. So.

00:55:53,166 --> 00:55:56,333

To to like with the pumpkins this is

00:55:56,541 --> 00:55:59,541

this is actually a good question

with this.

00:56:01,125 --> 00:56:02,625

And you know

00:56:02,625 --> 00:56:05,625

Billy kind of

got this from working with flood.

00:56:05,833 --> 00:56:09,708

And flood was is

one of the greatest producers of all time.

00:56:10,375 --> 00:56:13,375

He worked with U2, Depeche Mode,

00:56:14,750 --> 00:56:17,750

nin like okay, absolute legend.

00:56:19,333 --> 00:56:21,458

And part of his thing

because he worked with Daniel

00:56:21,458 --> 00:56:24,250

Canino was to just to try

00:56:24,250 --> 00:56:27,583

all the iterations of things, you know, so

00:56:28,458 --> 00:56:33,291

that like, you've got to be willing

and I'm not it's not this is not literal

00:56:33,291 --> 00:56:36,375

when I say this, but does the song work

00:56:36,375 --> 00:56:39,625

better as a rock song or as a polka?

00:56:41,333 --> 00:56:42,750

Does that make sense?

00:56:42,750 --> 00:56:45,750

It's like being able to take it and say,

well,

00:56:46,708 --> 00:56:47,208

what?

00:56:47,208 --> 00:56:48,333

Where,

00:56:48,333 --> 00:56:50,791

where are the stress points

in these in this song,

00:56:50,791 --> 00:56:52,791

and what can it really turn into?

00:56:52,791 --> 00:56:55,541

Like, what is the thing that makes it

00:56:55,541 --> 00:56:59,333

into a great song as opposed to, you know,

you come with a good song?

00:56:59,833 --> 00:57:01,583

How do we make it into a great song?

00:57:01,583 --> 00:57:03,916

What are the things that are missing?

00:57:03,916 --> 00:57:07,000

And it's like sometimes you just got

to keep playing things over and over.

00:57:08,041 --> 00:57:10,041

Maybe the rhythm, maybe that rhythm

00:57:10,041 --> 00:57:13,791

that you think is the right

rhythm to play, you know, you know,

00:57:13,791 --> 00:57:17,250

maybe if you're just strumming, well,

maybe that's not the thing to do.

00:57:17,750 --> 00:57:20,500

Maybe it needs to become more kind of,

you know,

00:57:20,500 --> 00:57:23,750

Peter Gabriel, you know,

maybe we need to break it down.

00:57:23,750 --> 00:57:26,750

Maybe the rhythm needs to meet,

needs to be more tribal.

00:57:27,041 --> 00:57:29,750

You know, it's just like,

what are the stress points?

00:57:29,750 --> 00:57:31,041

That's the best way I can say it.

00:57:31,041 --> 00:57:34,041

And, like,

those are the things that, like.

00:57:34,333 --> 00:57:34,958

You have to look.