Eileen McDargh, 72, is a Rockstar motivational speaker, hope merchant, truth teller, and the Founder and Chief Energy Officer of The Resiliency Group. Since 1980, Eileen has helped organizations and individuals transform the life of their business and the business of their life through conversations that matter and connections that count. She has spoken on stages all over the world and been inducted into the National Speakers Association Hall of Fame. Eileen’s marvelous 8th book, “Burnout to Breakthrough,” was published by Berrett Koehler last fall. 

What are the rewards of stopping the chase? What happens when adventure becomes “venturing in?” What are some simple resiliency habits that fuel an energized life?

https://www.eileenmcdargh.com/

The joy is mean it is wonderful to get a standing ovation. But I heard someone say, you know, the standing ovation is not so much about the speaker as it is about the audience. Yeah, the generosity of the audience. What brings me the most joy is when I hear from people, either immediately or later on, in which they say, I got this idea, or you don't know how much I've helped you. And I will always say that I came for you. I'm only here for you.

Hey, this is Achim NOwak, executive coach and host of the my fourth act podcast. If life is a five act play, how will you spend your fourth that I have conversations with exceptional humans who have created bold and unexpected fourth acts, listen, and to be inspired. And please rate us and subscribe on whatever platform you're listening on. Let's get started. I am so happy to welcome Eileen McDarrah to the My fourth act podcast. Eileen is the chief energy officer and founder of the resiliency group. Since 1980, she has helped organizations and individuals transform the life of their business and the business of their life through conversations that matter and connections that count. Eileen believes that resiliency is a critical life skill and one that requires the energy of connections. Eileen has been inducted in the National Speakers Association Hall of Fame. Her marvelous eights book bernado breakthrough was published last fall by berrett Koehler, Eileen calls herself a hope merchant and a truth teller, in that spirit. Welcome, Eileen.

Thank you, I came just listening to you gave me goosebumps.

Well, it was all about you and the marvelous human being that you are. But thank you. I want to get into what resiliency looks like as somebody as accomplished as you enters her 70s. And I know you gave me permission to say that, so thank you. But I want to get to a few things from the beginning. I asked this in every podcast, when you Eileen, were a young girl or a teenager. Who did you want to be when you grew up?

That's a question that you gave me. And I've been pondering it. I did not have a clear picture at all. The one thing I knew was that I wanted to make a difference. I always did that. And I thought, well, I could either make people happier, or wiser. Well, I didn't think I was very smart. But how can I How can I help people be happier. That's the only thing I knew. The other thing is that I was always the runt of the litter. So I was back in those horrible days when they in PE when they would choose people to be on teams. I was always the last one chosen. I didn't play third base. I was third base, just like they have my little children. And so I never fit in. And I guess one of the other things was that I I wanted to feel that I belong somewhere. Yeah, but I didn't have I didn't have an identity. I didn't have, quote, a career in mind. But the one thing that brought me out, which is interesting, I was in high school, and we were in a private school. I didn't know this at the time, but my parents couldn't afford it. So by the way, they wore uniforms, which was great. Because one day a week when you could wear regular clothes, I realized what we didn't have, and everyone else came all dressed up. Yeah. But my sophomore year, my history teacher told me I had to stay after school. And I thought oh my god, what have I done? Because I always a very good student. She said I want you on the debate team. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No. And, and she said yes. Well, she saw something in me. I came that I never saw. And it was speaking debate. extempore oral interview. That was the thing that brought me out. I didn't know you could make a living doing that. But was that which filled my heart to be able to be a wordsmith and craft something orally. I

two thoughts as I was listening to you one, it's one of the great gifts in life at any age is when somebody sees our gifts and encourages them as met That can happen when we're teenagers. But that can happen at any age. It's, it's true.

And oftentimes we deny that we go No, no, no, no, no, I don't have that I don't have that. I remember my grandmother picking me up after school at high school. And I was again, you know, I didn't have dates, I didn't know anything. And I was crying. And she said to me, and I named after her, by the way I came,

okay.

I found out later, Eileen was not her real name. It was her stage name, her real name was Ethel Copeland Berger, thank God it is.

And how appropriate that you were given his stage name at birth. I give you his age.

But she said to me, didn't anyone ever tell you you had beautiful eyes. And at age 16, I thought I was never told I had beautiful anything. And she saw that in me too.

Nice. Word from your sponsor. That's me. I invite you to go to the website associated with this podcast www.my. Fourth active.com, you will find other equally inspiring conversation with great humans. And you will also learn more about the my fourth act mastermind groups where cool people figure out how to chart their own fourth acts. Please check it out. And now back to the conversation. The other thing that struck me, and I'm going back to the words you said about what what your teacher saw on you, there are we're gonna get to your public speaking and writing career in a moment, there are many very good public speakers, or I'm being blunt now are not great writers. There are many great writers who are not wonderful public speakers. You are that rare jewel who mean you write incredibly fantastic stuff. That's rich, sophisticated, deep and funny. And that combination is easy to get. And you are a force of nature on stage, which doesn't make it any surprise that you've had this incredible career spanning and I said you founded your business in 1980. So we're looking at 40 careers, I like to do you like to say, kiddo, to me, you're looking at a 40 years, kiddo. And it's impossible to encapsulate that but what in the spirit of this podcast? What interests me is what drives us to do what we're doing? Like, in your case, what's the joy and satisfaction you get when you are on stage? And or when you're right, because those are different experiences. But secondarily, to every joy, there is a dark side. So what are some maybe if you could recount a moment where you went, why the heck am I doing this? Or why am I doing this? You know, you can shamelessly share a war story because when you're in the public eye, you have a story. So take it away, Eileen.

Okay, do you want joy or sorrow? First,

you decide? Okay.

Well, I think we should end on a positive note. So let me borrow. Yeah, there are there have been a few times in which I have spoken. And when I finished I thought, I'm going to be a waitress. I'll just be a waitress. It didn't connect with the audience, or someone came up and just ripped me to shreds for whatever I had seen. And you know, it's interesting. When you look at evaluations, you can have 99 that are wonderful. Yeah. What do you fixate on? Is the the one that is terrible. Yeah. And there have been a few times in which my words were taken out of context. And it was just a eviscerated by them. So that's, that's a great. That's a great, that's a great sorrow. Thankfully, there haven't been many of them. But boy, it's like a knife. It's like a knife to your heart.

Yeah.

So that has happened. And when you talk about the sorrow of writing, there's a wonderful line. It's terrible to write. It's wonderful having finished. So the act of writing is not necessarily a joy when you can finally say, it's done. It's done. But I've always I've always been a wordsmith. And I think there's great power in language. The difference Twain said the difference between lightning and a lightning bug is huge. Yeah. So that so. So that would be the the sorrow on the on the spoken side, the joy, the joy is I mean, it is wonderful to get a standing ovation. But I heard someone say, you know, the standing ovation is not so much about the speaker as it is about the audience. Yeah, the generosity of the audience. What brings me the most joy is when I hear from people, either immediately or later on, in which they say, I got this idea, or you don't know how much I've helped you. And I will always say that I came for you. I'm only here for you. And the one that made the biggest impression actually, to this woman came up to me, I'd spoken in the Convention Center in New Orleans. And this woman came up to me, and she handed me a folded piece of paper and said, don't read this until you're on the plane going home to California. And I had told I had told a statistic that was given to me by a British colleague, cinematographer biologist about what are the odds of us being born, which is pretty darn incredible. Yeah. And my line to that was, you are meant to be here. When I opened that up a king. What she wrote to me was, I have been contemplating suicide. When I listen to your words, I'm not doing that. I know, I meant to be here. That's everything. And then the second one was two years ago. I've told the story about the birth of my granddaughter, Alicia Lin, and this woman comes running up to me when it's over. And she said, I'm Alicia Lin. I'm Alicia Lin. I never heard anybody just my name before. It turns out she's diagnosed with Parkinson's. We have stayed in touch. She writes about the influence I had on her.

Yeah.

Those two things alone are like. Okay, that's good. That's good.

I could riff for hours on what you just said. I wanted to share one immediate thought when when you spoke about standing ovations because I'm a former theater guy. And my hunch is, this is one of your drivers. People only stand up if we've touched their soul. Like, they don't jump up for superficial crap. You know, and I know you're very funny. But you have a lot of depth and heart and soul. And I'll maybe we can in a moment, talk about what does it mean to touch their souls. And the phrase, you're meant to be gave me chills as you said it. Because what I hear and I'm putting it out to you, you can go with the new way you are meant to be and all of your magnificence in all of your flaws in everything that is, you know, that's the beauty and the fact that that connected with somebody who didn't want to live anymore. It's just, I mean, that's why we do the work, isn't it?

It is, it's why you do the work that you do. It's why so many people come in and sit at your feet now virtually, because you to a camp, or a hope merchant, nowadays, that's a really huge thing. To allow people to create a space where people can see what I think of as intelligent optimism. Because black

intelligent and optimism together is a beautiful phrase, thank you, my my wonderful writer, colleague, I, let's get us to, because this is called the my fourth act podcast. And I see people go into ways when they enter, when they're crossed that I'm in my 70s threshold. Some people decide to stop doing what they've done all along, and they want to go in a totally different direction, or they want to stop or whatever. And all of this is said without any value judgment whatsoever. Whatever we choose, is meant to be my sense of you. Again, force of nature onstage incredible writer is you've entered in your 70s and you are in your full possession of your powers. My sense is that you want to do more of that. And I'm not just talking about mental acuity. One thing that and you've written this is not your first book on resiliency. So I think of Eileen Mudhar as an authority on this topic. But let me just play devil's advocate for a moment and there are some event planners Going, gosh, Eileen is amazing. You know, she's written so much amazing stuff on resiliency, she's got a new book out. But, you know, I know this 30 something person who she has a lot of followership on, on Instagram and on YouTube, and she talks about resiliency to, I think we should get her, you know, like that, that whole thing that we're an expert in something, but there's a whole new generation of experts. And does that ever enter your brain? Or do you think about that? do how do you handle the fact that there's something that you've done forever, suddenly, other people are in your space?

That's a great, that's a great question. And first off, because we we are in the world of COVID. God, and everybody has decided that they speak on resilience, all the way. And the guess where I am right now. And maybe it is because I am in my heart to say 70 the decade that I kind of go, man that I, I don't feel that I that I must compete with them. I think for both of us came, what we bring is not just subject matter. But we also bring life experience that allows us to draw on stories, events, and metaphors, that can drive things deeper other than some person who just pulled out. I mean, for all I know, they looked at my work and said, Oh, I can do that, too. I think I'm one of the only ones who talked about it the way I do. But I'm not I'm not interested in I'm not interested in competing. I'm interested in. I'm interested in people finding me because it resonates. I've got a piece of work coming up right now with a major financial firm. And the woman who's hired me, I don't know how she ever found me. But she said, I know that you will bring the right message to some 1000 plus staff that will be doing virtually, and she just sensed and we've just had this, you know, immediate rapport. I'd rather work with people like that. I just, I'm not interested in competing.

That makes so much sense to me. I love the phrase and I operate the same way letting people find me. And because the public space is more and more and more crowded, sometimes it's harder for people to find us. People find us through word of mouth, right. But in the in the space of people that don't know Eileen McDarrah have never worked with her. But gosh, you know, that would so benefit from your wisdom? Do you ever think about the saint the 80s and 90s anymore? And and how how I connect with the people that want to serve as different and and how do they find me? You raise the question with a current client?

You know what? That's a great question. And I don't have an answer. I listened to them.

We're gonna stop the conversation right now I leave no answer.

I don't, I'll tell you. Sometimes. In fact, I did this early on, when I started my career, I didn't know what I wanted. So I did reverse goal setting. I don't want this, I don't want this. Because if you do reverse goal setting, then suddenly what you want comes up. And I listened to this. He's a colleague, he's done very, very, very, very well. He's 10 years younger than I am. And he was talking about all of the things that you have to do to deepen your client base to and I listened to that I came and my heart just went. I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. So what I am doing is, instead of having a newsletter four times a year, I'm going to do it 12 times a year. I am continuing to blog. I'm really not active on Instagram, people are saying you need to be on YouTube. And when do that, what I'm doing is I'm learning this technology. And it's interesting, even what we are, quote, not face to face. There can also be something more intimate, absolutely not this way. Because if I was on a stage, I can only see the front row.

Yeah.

I like this that people choose to speak and if they can put the spotlight on them. I see their faces people see my face. I'm a very noisy face. But if I'm if I'm on stage up here, you can't treat my noisy face. So I just I'm just not interested in doing all that work. The other thing is that, and I told you before we started this, this broadcast that I lost a very dear friend last week. Yeah. And when you realize how short life is my notion now in this fourth Act, which is what we're talking about, is the word adventure. And when I say adventure, to venture in to myself, to venture into the world, there's so much I don't know, there's so much to see, there are so much to experience. And I've always believed that one of the ways in which you grow resilience is you do things you've never done before. Yeah. And if that's the case, then I'm looking for things I've I've never done before. And my colleague, Jeff Saul's, his first book was called the way of adventure. And I have done adventures with Jeff. And so if you were spending your time is precious, 24 hours that we are digging for clients, doesn't leave me a lot of time for adventure. Does that make sense?

Oh, it makes so much sense. I I really appreciate connecting adventure with adventuring in the That's beautiful. And I think that can be if we let it one of the gifts of the fourth act. I also and I want to go a little deeper with that with you that the notion of we've earned the right to say no, I don't want to do this. Especially in every marketing person who gives us advice about what we should do to do to get clients. Their advice is often really good for somebody else. But we but you've earned the right to say I don't want to do this. So if you're willing to go play with a little bit, and just in the moment. Can you tell me five things I lean just just really doesn't want to do first thing that come to mind. And five things that are lean goes, I want to do more of these things. Eileen doesn't want to do things Eileen would like to do more of

Okay. What do I not want to do? I don't I don't want to go digging for clients. Yeah. I don't want to grab the shovel and do this.

I'm cheering you on from Florida where I am.

Thank you. Good. Where are you? I also live just north of Florida. So you know, I don't want to go digging for clients. I don't want to do work for organizations that don't match my values. So for example, I could never work for a tobacco company. And I've always held firm to that. But even more so now I don't want to do work for companies that I don't resonate their value. I don't want to do work that takes me away for extended periods of time. From my My Best Beloved, my husband of 41 years coming up may 8. I didn't I don't want to do that. Yeah. Unless of course they were going to fly the two of us. I could probably say, Yeah.

Are you saying that you can be bought at the right price? Is that what I'm hearing?

It would have to be the right place the right price the right.

Amen.

I don't know if I have to Moore's that I that I don't want to do Oh, I don't want to eat lima beans. Yeah, what I do want to do is is I when we can, we're able to travel. I do want to go to places where I have not been before where we have not been before. And I've always felt that when you do that you need to be to be where you are. It always upset me when I had here colleagues who would go to I don't know make it up. They'd go to Budapest and they're looking for a McDonald's. Why would you do that? You know, I want to I want to go with a I want to go with a local scope. What I want to make sure I can always do, which I did this morning, I ran five and a half miles. I do want to make sure I can always move my body. My brain does not work if I don't move my body. So I want to make sure I do that. Yeah. I I want to make sure that I nurture my family. And my family isn't just my wonderful husband. But I have four amazing grandchildren who when they were born, I was determined they will know me and I will know that and so I went time with them even though they're spread across the west coast. I do I want to do that. And I want to create deeper and more connections with friends, friends, like you came. Yes. And this is this is silly as in the good news is that what COVID has prompted us to do if we listen is to reach out to people. We haven't talked to the longest time. What a shame. What is it?

Since you are and I mean this best burn authority on resilience habits. What kind of advice would you give yourself? You didn't away already around being resilient in your 70s and extended to our listeners as well who are contemplating? What does resilience look like? For me, especially, I appreciate your comment about the body. But I like to joke like, everything that can happen to an aging man before its time has happened to me. You know, I've had physical stuff and I'm, I'm fit as a fiddle, but stuff happens, right? We the bodies change, it pushes the resilience buttons. So what advice do you have for yourself and our listeners around resilience as we enter our 70s? All right, well, let

me first say that I think the dictionary definition is wrong. When it comes to human beings. It's not about bouncing back. Okay. It's about growing through. Secondly, resilience is ultimately energy management. Energy with depletes the energy. So if you were to go, I came up with that physical challenges. You say, okay, that that was then this is now what do I do now? That will create the energy for me? mental, emotional, physical, spiritual? Yeah. All about energy. And that's why I said connections. How do I connect with my head? What am I say? So if I was a What do I want to say? It's not, oh, crap, Ola. I'm 70 years old. It's like, Oh, wow. Look how much I have done and how much I can still do for whatever time is allowed to me. So, when I said intelligent optimism, it really has to do with how do we reframe where we are right now on our lives? How do we also because I said language is so important, the most important word that we can use in our head, and then speak with our mouth is what I choose. Yeah. Not I have to. Yeah. So I choose to be here with you. For the listeners, what do you choose? Today? I didn't say tomorrow. I said today? Yeah. If I can look at what are my choices today, from going on a run for meeting my avocado toast, drinking my green tea. And knowing that tonight, I will choose to have a glass of water. I don't want people to think I just austratus. But it is that it is that power of choice, because nothing will drain our energy. Keep us back from being resilient, is negativity. And right now, the way the world looks, I have to tell you, this is a hard thing to do. Because I get up and I look at the paper and all sudden something comes up. It is just so what are my choices, that can also impact a way in my limited sphere of influence, that I can help graphed the kind of world that I want now and what I want for my grandkids.

Because I know you to be a person of great curiosity. And you use the word adventure, in your just what I heard in what you were saying, and I'm going to use a more traditional language around how we serve in the world. So I'm going to do that. As you look to your future. Other new platforms that interest you lay terms of this stuff I want to get involved with this is topics that interest me. This is a way in which I might want to serve that I haven't done in the past. And I'm not suggesting it has to be when I'm just curious. I I hear it as you're talking that there might be things there.

I don't have a clear answer for that I came. I am open and listening. So I just yesterday, one of the women who popped on it turns out that her mother was also a woman's Air Force service pilot. It turns out that she is the executive director of a nonprofit in Houston, Texas. That creates a residential place for people who are experiencing lymphoma and some real specific diseases and thinking, I wonder why she's in my life rightnow?

Yeah.

I look at I just signed up to participate in something to protect our votes, which I've never done before. Yeah, I've never been a political creature. Until now. Yeah. Do I want to devote on what? No, but I want to be one of the people who's willing to speak truth to power. I don't know what that looks like. I do want to experience more than natural world. I just, I don't care whether it's doing another adventure in I don't know, Kilimanjaro, or, you know, to extend myself that way. So one of the things that I would say to all of us, to your, to your listeners, viewers, is do something at least once a month you've never done before. And that can be anything from taking a Pilates class to trying your hand at cooking bouillabaisse to I'm going to take a I've always wanted to do this, like I'm doing this. I'm going to take a glass class and two weeks, buys like glass glass and the glass, glass objects have such clear color to them. And I said, Yeah, I buy, I've got less objects here in my house, I'm going to go do that. I'm learning some technology related to how we present virtually. So I keep record of it. By the way. Every month, I write down what I did related to work, what I did to learn, what did I do to read? Who are the people I connected with? And it's what I love about that practice I came is at the end of the year, because like, at the end of each month, I printed out real fast put in a little journal, at the end of the year I go, wow. Look at look at how much I didn't win a winner. I'm tired. Oh, oh, look at who I talked. I forgot about that. Because when we get to December 31 and go, where'd it go? I have

I want to get back for a moment to the book you just recently published burnout to break through. It's not your first book on resiliency. So I'm going to ask a question that's obvious to me. But perhaps it's not obvious to you. I was going what's motivating Eileen, to write another book on resiliency? Is it that you know, it's published by a wonderful publisher, berrett Koehler? I just want to say that so was it just that that they said, Gosh, Eileen, we just want you to write another book. And of course, you have to or what, what, what were you adding that wasn't in your original writing on resiliency?

Okay, the first book that I wrote on resilience was called the resilient spirit, or talk for saying, right set up in a world that's upside down. And I wanted something that was so easy to read, but so powerful, and hard, is hard to write small. Yeah. And that was prompted after 911. And so it's when I something says we need to put something out. And by the way, I also write for myself.

Yeah,

I write to learn for myself, because you take it out of my head, and I'm here go Oh, yeah, that's, that's true. What prompted this one? Was that I would say, in the, in the PC World, not politically correct. But the COVID world. I would say that for the last three or four years, every time I was asked to speak on resiliency, it was always in the context of burnout. Yeah, people were just exhaust.

Yeah.

And I spoke for 5000 pharmacists in March of 2019. And by May 2019, the World Health Organization had declared it basically a global occupational hazard. And I thought that's it, Eileen, you just, you just have to write the book. And so that's what prompted it. Bear color took it. The final manuscript was due in December of 2019. And what happened two months later in 2020, yeah. So now people are experiencing burnout on steroids. So again, it was that stuff comes in, and then go on Okay, I need to write this. I actually have been toying with another book. I came you're the first person

I'm honored and I can't wait.

But and I've had this title in my head forever. You can give me feedback on it. hidden in plain view.

Yeah. Love it.

The magic of metaphor for inspiration. and innovation.

It sounds like it wants to be written.

I think there's so much when we get out of what is like, this is not just a cup. Really is this? And what can I learn from this cup

For our listeners, Eileen is holding up a cup right now you will not see the visual, but I saw the cup.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Oh, don't be sorry.

There's there's always lessons that take us in different ways and in different directions. And if you think about it, all the great teachers of the world, from Christ to Buddha, Muhammad, if they wanted to give a lesson, it was in the form of a story. And the story served as a metaphor that gave you greater wisdom. And that's what I'm thinking.

Like what you think and Eileen. Cool. From your current vantage point, and what you know, and what you've learned, if you had a chance to whisper into younger aliens, ears and give her some guidance, you know that Eileen, who maybe wasn't noticed, who was the runt in your own words, who maybe didn't have faith and was not our hope merchant yet? What What would you say to young Eileen, or any other listener who may not feel like they're a hope merchant?

I think to my younger self, I would probably have said, Stop playing so cautious. Yeah. A very, I was very cautious, very traditional, you know, follow the rules, I think I would have said, you know, stop being so cautious. I probably tell my younger self, which I would have done when I was younger is go to grad school. Now there's part of me that wishes that I had that only because, you know, it seems, you know, what would I have learned from that, except that school now has got a lot more opportunities than they did. When you and I were growing up. When I look at the course of study that my grandkids have that. That's a course, you're going to take stainable environmentalism and get a degree. You know, so it's, it's, it's broader. It's, it's deeper.And then,

Beautiful. So I'm going to extend the metaphor. And final question, Eileen? or What kind of music do you want to play going forward? In what kind of music would you like to hear for others in the world?

Wow. So many different songs. I think in terms of song, I'd like to teach the world to sing. harmony, that would be one. Yeah. The other one would be without a song, the day would never end. So it's I don't know if that's the kind of music, but it would be the theme of the music. It's not going to be rap. It would be music with words that resonate. That would kind of be that. But then at the end of the day, I also want us to stay out. I love to dance. So something that we could even move to

well, and music and dance, in my mind. Touch the soul at a very deep level. Which gets back to where what we talked about earlier, which is the power of touching people's souls through your energy and spirit on stage and your words and in my mind, it's the connection of everything. Because you're such a prolific and awesome human being and if listeners are listening, who don't know who you are, or want to check you out and find out more about Eileen McDarrah, where where would you like to send them?

Well, I think my website would actually be a good way it's if you can't find it on my website, it probably doesn't even exist. So if you can spell my name which I came while happier, just https://www.eileenmcdargh.com/ There'll be blog posts up there, they can sign up for my for my a zine, which will come out now 12 times a year. You can find my books on Amazon. You can also some of them actually, right now, I only have like the resilient Spirit because it's got limited edition artwork on every facing page. And it became too expensive to reprint it. So I have limited editions of those that are here that can be ordered through me on the website. So I'll be there. That'd be the best place.

Awesome. Again, my dar is spelled mc DARGH.

Correct. Correct. My dad, Scott Irish, we got the last two letters for the price at what?

And because you are a truly magnificent and rightfully applauded public speaker. Anybody who goes to Arlene's website, check out her speaker reel, because you see snippets of what energy on stage looks like and you will be both entertained and moved at the same time. Eileen, thank you for your really honest, forthcoming conversation. I enjoyed it so much.

I do too. And I've got to get back to South Florida so that we can see each other in person.

I'll see you in California. That works too. Okay. In the meantime, bye for now. Thanks. Thank you. You're welcome. Like what's your hurt please go to my fourth act COMM And subscribe to receive my updates on upcoming episodes. Please also subscribe to us on the platform of your choice. Rate us give us a review and let us all create some magical fourth acts together. Ciao