EP 398 - Spain looks like a dream for startups: sunny, affordable, and full of talent.

But beneath the surface, founders face a slow, fragmented system that often blocks growth instead of enabling it.

In this episode, lawyer, founder and managing partner of Metricson Luis Gosálbez explains why Spain’s business environment frustrates entrepreneurs, from endless bureaucracy to region-by-region politics and a risk-averse culture that kills momentum.

Whether you're launching in Spain or expanding into Europe, this is what they don’t teach you in school - but should.

*For Apple Podcast chapters, access them from the menu in the bottom right corner of your player*

Spotify Video Chapters:

00:00 Business Without Baggage #2 - Spain's Hidden Business Rules

00:19 Meet Luis Gosalbez

01:36 Regional Differences in Spanish Business Culture

08:15 Business Etiquette and Payment Practices

09:25 Family-Owned Businesses and Hierarchies

11:15 Impact of Historical and Political Context

13:48 Collaborative vs. Individualistic Business Approaches

16:35 Challenges of Employment Laws

20:51 The Importance of Personal Connections

29:21 Cultural Taboos: Money and Religion

30:00 The British Perspective on Money

32:51 Building Spanish Business Relationships

34:21 Navigating Bureaucracy in Spain

37:20 Banking and Financial Regulations

43:45 Living and Working in Spain

44:54 Special Tax Laws and Incentives

47:27 Buying Property in Spain

49:41 Show and Tell: A Taste of Spain

51:43 Wrap Up

businesswithoutbullshit.me

Watch and subscribe to us on YouTube

Follow us:

Instagram

TikTok

Linkedin

Twitter

Facebook

If you'd like to be on the show, get in contact - mail@businesswithoutbullshit.me

BWB is powered by Oury Clark

Ever tried to do business in Spain and felt like you accidentally walked into a tapas bar during a political rally?

This week we break down exactly why doing business in Spain isn't just about siestas and sangria.

It's about regional rivalries, family run empires, and never mention money or politics.

Spanish lawyer Luis Gosalbez joins us to explain how it really works and why trust always comes before the deal.

Foreign welcome to a very special episode with a special title, Business Without Baggage.

A special series where we dive into the often challenging world of global business culture.

So we talked to our friends from around the world.

We've got a very good friend of ours today, Louis, and we talked about what is it really like to do business in a country.

So today's guest is Luis Gos Albert from Spain.

Hello.

Hello.

Lewis is founder and managing partner of Metricson, a law firm focusing on startups and tech companies.

With a background as both a lawyer and an entrepreneur, Lewis specializes in IP mergers, acquisitions, venture capital and advises some of Europe's fastest growing tech businesses.

He's also a mentor and lecturer in leading accelerators and university.

And he's also Spanish, which is quite crucial in this situation for today.

Yeah.

Lewis, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for coming over to the great city of London.

So, yeah, I think let's get into it.

Spain has obviously got a, you know, huge history and proud country that it is and obviously British people go there all the time on holiday, but I'm not sure how much we know what it's really like to do business there.

So maybe we'll just start with this question.

What is really important in Spain in terms of business culture in ag?

The Brits?

I would say maybe punctuality, humor.

Yeah, I would say that there is no, no such a thing as global Spanish entrepreneurship or business culture because you, there are so many different regions.

There are people with a lot of different ways of approaching the business.

For instance, I'm going to give you an example so they understand this.

You know that we have like a very fast train.

We call it ave.

It's a high speed train that connects the big cities in Spain.

Madrid, Barcelona.

Okay.

So every single day I take this train like twice per week.

Every single day you find people going from, for instance, from Barcelona to Madrid and when they come back they are like complaining because they couldn't close the deal because it's so different between Madrid and Barcelona.

Barcelona, Madrid and Valencia, we have like this kind of city states, you know, which could be anywhere in the world, which are Barcelona, Valencia, Barcelona and Madrid mainly.

And doing business in each of these places is totally different.

And when it comes to going to Sevilla, for instance, in the south, or to Valencia or to the north, you go to Bilbao, for instance, it's totally different approach.

And that's one of the things that, that just everyone should have into consideration prior to starting a negotiation or trying to build up a new company or launching the company in the country, because there, I mean, all these cultural differences make really a difference itself.

And so you're saying that even as a Spaniard who's, you know, I mean, Barcelona, famously Catalan, you know, it's been trying to leave Spain for a while.

You know, controversial but true.

But, you know, but someone from Barcelona can just go to Madrid and not have enough in common in their business culture to do deal effectively.

They, they, they, it doesn't close like they want it to.

Or of course you have a lot of common things, sure.

But the point is that if you're used to doing business with people which are, who are alike and you move to a different city, this, you're not, you're not closely moving to a different city.

You're moving like a different country, actually, in many senses, let's do Barcelona and.

Madrid, because those are probably two of the main cities people would do business in in Spain.

Probably top two, you know, top, top three, maybe whatever you're by.

But Catalan, I speak Catalan.

I live, I've been living over the last 30 years, like half of my life in Barcelona, which is a huge city.

I've also lived in Valencia.

I've also lived in Madrid.

I've been switching, you know, between cities.

Rob, roughly, what would you say is Madrid more formal and Barcelona is more relaxed?

I would guess that's what it looks like from outside, probably.

Okay.

And from some perspective, that's true.

It is also true that in Barcelona, it used to be like, you know, the most international city in a country.

So you had all the people from any single point of the world because we have the sea, we have a good climate with weather.

And Madrid used to be like, you know, where all the government, all the institutions were based.

Okay, that was supposed to be that way.

The truth is, over the last years, Madrid is becoming more and more popular between the international community.

So more and more people are going to Madrid, especially Latin American people coming from middle and South America.

And that's making also a difference now because huge companies are also moving to Madrid.

And after the COVID you know, more and more cities are becoming Popular also, for instance, you know, Malaga and Marbella, you know, in the south is south, south east.

Valencia's international community is also growing.

There are many other places, not only Barcelona and Madrid, that are starting to grow.

But, you know, each one of these cities has their own personality ways of doing business.

Approaching to side.

It's quite interesting because, I mean, I'm lucky because, you know, I'm from a small town in the southeast that's called Arcoy, you know, I mean, no one understands me that I am from a particular dangerous place for them.

So I can do business.

It's a rough town, is it?

Yeah.

That's good for me because I can do business in Madrid and in Barcelona.

But I think no one thinks that I'm challenging anything.

Yeah, but if you are, you know, you can define yourself as, I am from Barcelona, I am from Madrid, probably it's going to be rough for you.

It's quite a lot of competition then between them, is it sort of a bit of a tension almost in the air, is there?

Yeah, all the time.

Is it important to be sensitive, therefore, to this regionality?

I mean, it's a big country, Spain is what you're partly saying, that it is regional, it is federal.

You know, you've got, you've got to be understanding and sensitive to that.

You know, it is important.

But it's not only because for like, how would I say this, it's not just a matter of being sensitive with what you feel about your.

Your region is just because it's useful, because if you understand how it works in a different region, you're going to be more successful in that region.

It's just because of that.

I mean, from a political point of view, actually, there's absolutely no difference because we are one country, we have almost the same laws, although there are some differences also in the tax regime.

But it is true that if you understand the behavior or you understand the way that people in each region approaches to the business, it's better for you.

I guess it's the same thing here.

I mean, I'm sure that if you.

Go into Leeds, I'm sure, you know, people who aren't from London will think, oh yeah, they just think it's all about London.

I mean, for sure there's, you know, huge regional variation.

I mean, you know, there's a simple ones I can think of, like Scottish people will negotiate, you know, English people don't negotiate, non price.

It's just, it's sort of considered a bit rude in England, but it's considered but again, you then get struck down.

Some areas of England, I'm sure they go, yeah, we do.

But you know, generally speaking you can, you can think of sort of differences like that.

But mostly the UK I would say is tied together by its humor, you know, or mostly there are sort of that commonality of, you know, making a lot of jokes and sort of finding something to laugh about or not that sort of, I'd say that mostly holds us together.

I mean, Bill Bryson, who's a famous American author who wrote a book on Britain was like saying, you know, that's if you watch two, you know, British people meet each other, it's just a matter of seconds before they laugh.

Okay, that's interesting.

And now, I mean, let's do something really basic like, like commercial culture and habits.

Like how long would it take to get an invoice paid?

Are they good payers, bad payers?

This has improved a lot thanks to regulation, of course.

Oh, there's a regulation now on paying invoices?

Actually there's a European regulation that also applies to most of the countries.

You don't know this because you have left.

We left.

So we're just missing out on the chat now.

You know, we just keep following everything anyway, you know, if you send an invoice, as a professional, do you find your people are quite good at paying in, I don't know, 30 days or.

Yeah, I mean you're supposed to pay in less than 90 days.

Okay.

Oh, right, 90, 90.

It's quite a long time.

It's a long time.

But, but I mean that's the payment terms on average.

No, no, no, but, no, but if someone pays you in 90 days and if it's not like the blood of your company, you're probably going to work with another, another company because you don't want to get paid in that, in those terms.

But yeah, no, but the average payment, it takes like no more than 30, 45 days.

It's not that bad.

It used to be worse years ago.

And is it, you know, hierarchical?

Like our Indian friends have very hierarchical culture and the information flows down but struggles to go up.

You can't sort of criticize your boss very easy.

Or is it more flat?

You know, the point is that according to the statistics, around between 89 and 90% of the companies in Spain are familiar based companies or familiar owned companies.

Oh, wow.

We have a lot of big companies, but most of the companies, 80%.

I don't know the numbers, but a huge percentage of the companies are small to medium companies that Means that the decisions are taken by a small bunch of people.

And then when it comes to taking decisions to information flowing, it's difficult for that to.

I mean, it's not that it's only hierarchy hierarchical.

Yeah.

It's also because if the ownership of a company is in the hands of a few people, those are the guys who are going to take the decisions, who are going to own the information and to only spread the information they want.

That's a very.

I mean, I don't know, maybe it's not.

You know, probably we'll find out.

You know, 80% of British businesses are family businesses because once you count the small businesses, so many of those little family, you know, define it, but it.

Doesn'T mean that they are not profitable.

They are profitable for them, but the size is not that big.

But in my question, you know, can the most junior member of staff come and challenge the most senior member of staff?

And that not be like, what are you doing?

Yes, of course.

I mean, it's not a problem of being junior or senior.

I mean, if you add value to that decision, you can like improve your position.

You can earn more money.

I mean, there's no like those strong barriers in the organizations.

It's just.

It's just a matter of who owns the shows.

I mean, my old man being, well, being an old man, you know, he always talks to me about.

Do not underestimate the impact Franco had in terms of your culture.

Then you had this period of Franco which led to quite a lot of poverty.

I mean, I don't know.

Again, we don't want to talk the politics, but from a business point of view, obviously it was more of a con.

Was it communism?

What was it Franco?

Was he fascist?

Okay, okay.

Well, he was a dictator.

I mean, he was a dictator.

So.

Yeah.

Do you see that as having.

Having a huge impact on the business culture and how business is conducted?

Because during his.

How did business work during his era, everything was state controlled, wasn't it?

Not that much.

I mean, there was like a lot of people who had like those big, well, not that big, but big companies here in Spain and they were.

It's not that they were controlled, but they were close to the power.

Okay, so the power could tell you, okay, do this and don't do this.

It's not that they were owning the company, but of course they were the ones who could say, just take a look at that and then put a gun on your head.

So that's.

Yeah, yeah.

Then you preferred not to go against the power at that time.

But when you have these periods of change, it's almost like the clock starts again.

Someone said this to me about.

A Chinese person was explaining China to me and he was sort of saying, well, you've got to understand, for a long time, you know, there was no money.

There was no.

And then we were told, get the money.

So this sort of, you know, we haven't built up a framework of like, how we do that.

It's just like, right, we'll do that then, you know, it's sort of that money equals freedom now in China.

So for, you know, so it's that sort of large shift.

I mean, when did Franco end?

1970 or something?

In the 70s.

Yeah, in the 70s.

And then you sort of.

You're slightly starting from scratch, aren't you?

Over, you know, who, who you are.

So we had this transition period in which we went from a dictatorship to democracy.

Right.

And I can tell you that we are still working on it because, yes, there's a lot of.

We still have a lot of problems.

I mean, today, for instance, all these last weeks, we have a lot of news.

Politicians, like, with robberies, I mean, all sort of corruption in the.

Corruption in the government.

But it's happened like government after government over the last 40 years.

So it's a pity.

But I think that sometimes we will manage to go through all of this.

Does business culture tend to be collaborative or individualistic?

I mean, is there any sense of it's about the individual or it's, you know, I guess, yeah, more collaborative.

Does that mean.

Does that make sense to you?

Well, yes.

I mean, the Spanish were very social.

Okay.

So we're like talking to each other, going to the street, grab a beer, whatever.

Okay.

So I would, from that perspective, I would say that it's quite collaborative.

So it's easy to get people to do things together, depending on where you are, as I mentioned before, depending on the region, people you are around you.

But it is also true that we have like a tradition of small companies fighting with each other all the time.

It's not that easy that a lot.

Of small companies fighting with each other all the time.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean that, for instance, if you have a competitor, it's quite unlikely that you're going to share information and you're going to collaborate with their competitor in order to build something bigger, in order to become more competitive in a global environment.

Okay.

That's something that happens a lot in a lot of countries.

It's not that easy here in Spain because you like to have your own company.

It's profitable for you, for your family, for the people who are working in that company.

And since that's profitable, you're not going to make that bigger or more complicated.

It's good for you.

So that's why I'm saying that, okay, the environment is collaborative, but when it comes to aggregating value and creating bigger structures, it's not that way.

Interesting.

Is it a tool poppy syndrome?

You know that phrase?

It's the idea that we have it here, we like people to do better and then once they reach a level, we don't want them to do better than us or we don't want to do that, want them to do any better.

Is that true of Spain?

Because when you're saying they're quite hard on each other, competitors, that suggests that sort of we don't want others to do better than us.

Yeah.

It's not a matter of just looking at the rest of the people or the rest of the company or competitors and say, okay, I want to be better than you.

It's just okay, no, I'm good.

Enough with what I'm doing.

Have a good life.

You know, living in Spain is quite cheap compared to almost every single place in the world.

Especially, you know, in Europe or especially to here to the uk, as you already know.

Why is it so cheap?

And you have a really good health system, like regarded as probably the best health system in Europe.

I was reading the other day it.

Is, and it's totally public.

If you come here to one of our events and we go dinner and.

How the hell are you doing that when everyone else's health system, even the Germans, is falling?

Well, we pay good taxes.

Yeah.

What do you pay?

You pay like 30% on top of.

On a salary.

Do you pay.

You pay Social Security?

It's kept okay.

From, I mean, beyond one point is kept, but it's around, yeah, roughly a 30%.

So all businesses will pay 30% on top.

And is it, is it hard hiring and firing people?

You know, is it quite difficult?

If you want to.

If you employ someone, can you get rid of them six months later or.

Well, this is going to change this changing slowly.

I don't know if for good or for bad for me as an entrepreneur or as a, as a businessman, I would say that for worse.

Okay, they're going to make it stricter.

Yeah, it's been more complicated and more expensive.

Worse, because you just employ less.

I remember being in Spain, probably one of the first times we met, 10, 15 years ago, and they.

You had the highest unemployment rate in Europe.

And particularly for young people, it was something insane, like 50% of them or something.

It's still the same thing.

Yeah.

Oh, really?

And then someone says to me, well, that's partly because it's so hard to fire people.

They all, a lot of them do have work, they're just not employed.

I mean, it's more difficult.

It used to be like 10 or 15 years ago.

It's still like easier and cheaper than doing that.

For instance, in France.

In France it's a nightmare.

In, In Spain it's.

Well, it's difficult, but at the end you can manage to do that.

I mean.

And the good part is that, you know, the law is quite easily understandable.

So you know the risk, you know the cost, you know what you can and you.

What you can't do.

From that perspective, if you can foresee what's going to happen, it's good for you because then you can take a decision.

The problem is when you don't know what's going to happen or how much it's going to cost you or whatever.

Uncertainty is the worst, isn't it?

At least if you know what the.

Rules are for doing business and forgetting investment or whatever.

Uncertainty is like the, you know your worst.

And regionally, does it vary like the employment law?

Does it vary regionally?

You know, the playmate is the same all over the country.

What varies regionally?

Taxes, taxes.

The costs of.

Well, it also goes to taxes.

Basically the same thing.

And if, you know, paternity law, things like this.

If someone gets pregnant as a child, is it like here, they tend to take a year off?

We have, if.

I don't remember, but I think it's four months.

It's like 16 weeks.

Yeah.

Four months paid by state and the company pays a little bit and, you know, the state pays all the rest of the full pay.

For four months.

For four months.

But both for men and for women.

Okay.

So if you're, if you're the father, you also have a maternity leave of 16 weeks, which is basically the way that they can both get it.

They don't share it.

Both could take four months off at the same time if they wanted.

Oh, that's nice.

Yes.

Problem for the business.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

But the problem is not that it's too long or too short.

The problem is As I said before, if we have, like, small companies that depend a lot on the small team that you have.

Of course, it's more complicated.

If you have an environment in which you have big companies with hundreds of people, then if you have, like, they.

Always design these laws behind closed doors thinking that this company has a thousand people.

They never design these laws thinking this company only has three people.

Do you know what I mean?

You know, I had a little business, there were four of us in it.

And I never forget.

Yeah.

One of my staff members, she had three babies in five years or four and a half years or something, I think three babies in five years.

I mean, she was never there there, you know, by the time she come and she really apologized on the third one.

But I was like.

I mean, I was like, I don't know what you want to say.

You know, you're back.

You just retrained you again and now you're going again.

You know, what am I doing here?

And you have to keep a job open and everything.

And I think I shoot me down.

I'm just saying, like, when you're a little business, it's agony.

You're just like, I. I can't function here.

You know, I mean, but that's our problem as, you know, as the investors or the other businessmen for the company.

I mean, it's our problem, not this.

Because.

Because it's great that people, you know, give birth to children because we need to have that.

We have probably one of the lowest birth rate in, I don't know if in the world.

Really.

Oh, really Struggling.

Yeah.

So with that, really, with all that.

Weather and sangria and beaches, I know.

It doesn't make much sense, but that's the way it works, actually.

Yeah.

So people from outside of the country, what do you think they get?

They get wrong most about it.

Okay.

It's very regional.

People.

People shouldn't see Spain as one place.

What else?

Is there anything else that you think people assume wrongly about the Spanish?

Yeah.

Probably not everyone understands the importance of the personal connection.

Okay.

So if you want to do business with someone, you'd better get a good introduction or at least make some effort to be, I don't get to say a friend, but something similar to that.

Okay.

You don't have, like a personal connection with someone.

It's difficult that you really manage to do business with that.

Okay.

So rule of thumb for Britain is we will do business with each other when we don't really know each other.

In fact, we see that as.

And then after a While we decide whether to become friends or not.

But even if we don't, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm not going to carry on doing business.

But you're in Spain.

It's more.

You've got to form the relationship first.

It's more a matter of trust than a matter of like a personal relationship.

I mean, if I need to trust you, I need to know you.

I can't trust you if I don't know you.

This is the thing we were talking about that Olivier explained.

I thought so.

Well, that in Northern Europe we start from a position of trust and then we look for reasons not to trust.

But it's sort of more efficient to trust.

But that Spain in the Southern Europe would follow the normal pattern that you need to build trust and then.

But once you have it, you have it.

You know, it's harder to lose it.

It's easier to lose trust with the British, I mean, you only need to do a couple of things.

If you, if you don't keep your word once, okay, maybe twice, now I'm out.

You know, it's that, that sort of black and white, you know.

So actually Spain is you, you build it up a little bit and go gently.

It is true.

And also it is quite, I mean, it's quite common that you, the first time you try to reach someone and just get in touch, you know, like in a cold call or whatever, it's quite sleep that you get gusted.

Okay.

So.

Yeah, yeah.

Because they start not answering you.

I mean, okay, yeah, I don't know you, so I don't mind what you think about me if I don't answer to your call or to your email to whatever.

So I know it shouldn't be that way, but that's, I mean, it is.

Here because we're overwhelmed.

But you're right that, you know, we're indicating that maybe it's a little bit stronger.

So therefore it's about getting to know people.

Is there.

There's a lot of getting to know people before you actually do business.

So for my world, I just, I'm coming to do business, not to get to know everyone, you know what I mean?

But you need to spend the time.

Yeah.

And you've got to, what, find some people and ask some friends and meet some people and spend the time and invest effectively.

Yeah.

That's the proper or the correct other in a spin.

Okay, so you know the person, then you propose, you know the business.

That's why we, we also have, I think here in Britain, it's Quite the same thing that there's this small chat at the beginning of every conversation.

So.

Because you want to test if the person you're talking to.

I love this small chat actually, because that's that funny thing Brits do like 10 minutes, apparently.

10 minutes?

Yeah.

A bit about the weather, a bit of football.

Now down to business, maybe a bit longer.

That's approximately.

No, no, it's barely the same thing.

Yeah, it's approximately the same thing.

You know, you must be a homogenousness.

That's a word going on.

Because like when I think of Barcelona, it's a very international city, like you say, like London.

So the culture is probably more international almost than it is then zoom is flattening these things, isn't it?

Like what you're talking about.

It's like, well be.

Even people in the south will start getting used to half hour meeting.

Americans, half hour meetings, you know, they don't really do small talk actually.

They get.

They might make.

I've read something the other day.

It's like, make a statement, wisecrack, meeting starts.

So they.

But they do it like a minute or two.

It's just like, hey, well, it's great.

It's been going.

Someone makes a joke, meeting begins, you know, and it's.

Right.

But I mean, they, they're pretty intense, most of them.

And not.

It's in people, it's in.

The meetings are generally half an hour.

And that must keep flattening us as a group of people, isn't it?

It's sort of, you know, I think maybe particularly the cities.

It's almost like we need to start talking about not the culture of countries, but the culture of international cities.

Yes.

Because at the end of the day, these cities, these state cities, like, you know, in the ancient Greece or whatever, these cities could be like anywhere in the world because they have their own identity.

They are different to the places they have around there.

The smoke up, for instance, Barcelona is like, it's unique.

It's like something totally different to the rest of Catalonia itself.

And it happened the same thing with Madrid.

With respect, you know, to the Castilla Mancha.

Castilla, which are, you know, the, the regions that are close to Madrid is.

They're totally different places.

It's like.

It's like an island in the middle of something.

So London's become.

So all these cities become.

Yeah, it's an issue because also you're attracting this sort of talent pool the whole time.

Barcelona is the same.

It attracts this sort of talent, this young talent from around the world.

And you know, that makes it quite a young city as well.

You know, they call it social Darwinism, the sort of way different areas of the country move at different rates.

You know, it's a sort of, it's a problem and it's getting, it's getting deeper.

I mean, I think one of the ways they're dealing with it is mayors of London.

I don't know, is there a mayor of Barcelona?

But I don't think that's a problem actually.

I mean having a big city that concentrates a lot of things, good and bad things of course together it's not bad at all.

The point is how you, how you make that the rest of a country has a reason to keep living, for instance in Valencia or in Sevilla and Bilbao.

Okay.

They are also outliers in the economy and in terms of size, but they are not so different to their surroundings.

Okay, but Barcelona and Madrid particularly, they are really, really like an island.

And now a quick word from our sponsor Business without bullshit is brought to you by Ori Clark.

You can find us@oriclark.com Ori is spelled O U r Y.

And before we press on, just a quick reminder to come say hi on whatever social platform you like.

We're pretty much on all of them.

Just search for WB London.

We've been having this leveling up agenda with which interesting, they've realized is very negative for London.

So it's been sort of about level up but it basically suggests that London does better.

So it creates this sort of jealousy and division.

So they're redoing it now about sort of, you know, more power for the north or whatever it is, you know, the language.

Is there a gender like that in Spain that they're trying to balance these things?

Yes, we call it the empty Spain, la Espana bacia.

But it is true that after the COVID 19 a lot of people just moving to the small towns.

I live in the big cities and.

They'Re not coming back.

They're still, there's still people going, yeah, because you know, for, if you can work remotely and you, you have like facilities to do that.

And I mean of course living in a, in a small town or whatever is like cheaper is simpler.

I'd be half asleep though.

I know those towns in Spain, they're incredibly relaxing.

You know, it's like, yeah, oh it's very relaxing here.

I might just not do any work today, you know, Be lovely though to appraise people's Activity, Whether it was, they say, oh, it's, you know, it's lovely and peaceful.

I get so much more done.

You probably find out.

Yeah, but you're only, you know, you're going at half the pace.

But I think that's a false friend also, because if you take a look at the statistics, Spain is one of the countries with more working hours per employee across Europe.

Yes, it is.

It is probably because we are less productive within these hours.

You and us, the same, you know, we're drinking tea all the time.

I mean, I've seen it in Spain where people, if the boss stays, you have to stay.

But then, then they're not working.

And I've seen that.

And they're all on Google doing whatever, and I'm like, just go home.

But no, they want to wait until the boss go.

So I remember doing that.

I used to work well my first years of.

I started working at ey.

Well, at that time.

It was Ernst and Young at that time.

And I remember living every day at 1am, 2am, Monday to Saturday.

Really?

Yeah.

Yes, because I think that some of our partners didn't have like a personal life, so they stayed there.

I didn't know what they were doing.

I know what I was doing.

Which is what?

Sometimes I was working, but not all the time, of course.

But, you know, I was like 20, 23, 24 years.

It just becomes a competition, you know?

Yeah, but I don't think this is happening today.

This used to happen like 13 or 25 years ago, but I don't think this is happening today.

Maybe Covid changed it again.

Yeah, I think so.

Yeah, I think so.

And we talked about small talk.

What's.

What's the best small talk for a Spanish person?

I mean, we do the weather better.

Than telling you what we talk about and telling you what you shouldn't be talking about.

You don't talk about politics.

Catalan, right?

Out.

I've messed up.

Especially in Catalonia.

We used to have a bigger problem yet in the Basque country.

Okay, so no politics because you're very regional and there's a lot of differences.

Yeah, you don't speak about religion, if you can.

And also that's also a good point from a cultural perspective, which is we don't like to speak about money.

Money.

Oh, I see that.

Oh, we share that.

No, don't talk about money.

So no one knows how much.

I mean, what's your salary, how much you're paying for your.

For the rent, if you are paying for the.

For a nurse or whatever.

I mean, you don't speak about money with your friends, with your family, with nobody.

But even when you're doing business, it's like the, the last part of a conversation that you cover in the last 20 seconds.

So blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

It's okay for you.

It's okay for.

And we move on.

You know, that's very similar to the Brits, though.

We really.

Yeah, we, we may not even talk about.

We say, I'll send you an email or something about the money.

Privately text.

It's rude.

It's rude to talk about money.

And it's, it's a problem as well.

I like it, but it's also a problem.

I mean, America's comfortable do it, but there are other cultures, you know, I mean, I'm sure it happens to you very occasionally.

Someone say, so what you earn?

And you're just like, what?

And you're asking.

And he's like, because in my, in my brain I'm like, if I tell you a number that's lower, you, I feel.

If I tell you a number that's higher than you, you feel.

And I feel, so.

I feel.

Whatever I say.

So let's just not go there.

There's no reason for me to tell you.

And, you know, it's, it's sort of.

It's that sort of two thing about showing off money.

It's like, if you have money, don't show it off and make other people feel bad, you know?

Yeah, but you can speak or you can talk about money and not show off.

I think that the two different things.

Yeah, there's two.

So it's okay to show.

It should be.

This should be.

It should be.

Well, I do think that because it' polite to spend your money, there's a lot of people who end up like dragons sitting on piles of money.

Whereas we should celebrate people who are generous and people who spend their money, you know?

Good for you, you know.

Totally.

I don't think that money itself is a problem.

The problem is how you manage your relationship with the money.

Yes.

This is a great tip, though.

As far as the Brits are concerned right now, we're like, brilliant.

They do the same as us, basically.

We're going to talk about everything except the thing we really need to talk about.

Yeah, the ages.

That's a weird race.

The end.

And then I don't know if this happens to you in Britain.

So we don't talk about the money and eventually sort of whisper about it.

It's a bit unclear Then the bill comes out and people are like, how much this is?

And then we're very aggressive.

We're like, oh, it's just outrageous, you know, I can't believe it.

And you're like, well, yeah, you know, I mean, really?

Yeah, we can be quite.

If we.

If we will hopefully be clearer about the money.

But then when people feel that, you know.

Yeah, I find Brits with their backs against the wall.

Yeah, we're aggressive animals, you know, we really switch on you.

That's my.

My anecdotal experience is that we're polite.

Polite.

No, no problem, no problem, no problem.

And then one day we're like, you know, here's all the reasons you're an asshole and I'm not paying this bill.

Fuck you very much.

You know, a little bit, you know.

Yeah, I think we can be.

But that's how we are as a country.

It's always like, we're not very.

It's like, if you look at our football, we're really bad at when even if we've got a good team, we'll never win the World Cup.

But if our backs against the wall and we're about to lose, we'll win.

Yeah, you know.

You know, sort of.

Sort of, you know, mentality, of know.

Okay, so don't talk about the usual sex, politics, religion is every.

Everyone's Catholic, basically.

Aren't they all Catholic?

I don't even speak about.

Yes, about food, for instance.

Food.

So you don't go, there's a new pope.

That's not so.

Well, you can talk about that.

But food.

Food is a good one.

Food is.

Food is a good one.

What do you think's the best thing about doing business with the Spanish?

I think that if you do business regular, you gain friends.

That's good.

I mean, Spain is a perfect place to live.

You know, it's fairly depending on where you're going.

But yes, overall, from a general perspective, I would say that, yes, since it's a good place to live and doing business in Spain.

I think that Olivier also said this, that the best part of doing business in France is that you are in France, that you are enjoying France.

Okay.

It's good for you because, of course, you are staying in a good country where you can live very well.

And also because you can.

Can gain friends, you can meet a lot of interesting people.

And that's something that if you do business in other places, you have some sort of connection, but you don't have a personal connection with those people.

You're doing business with.

And in Spain, at the end of the day, if you keep working with those people, you'll really get a lot of interesting people who are going to become your friends.

I think that's good.

Most of the people I know from all over the world that come to do business with us at the end of the day become friends.

And they not a lot of people when they come to the city, they have a lot of people to meet and to go dinner with.

And that's a good part, I think, also.

So you got to get to know Spanish people a bit and then you build trust.

Is that the biggest obstacle, do you think?

One of the sort of biggest hurdle to overcome doing business in Spain, it's just spending the time to get to know people, like getting in, getting in effectively with people.

For me, probably the biggest barrier or problem is bureaucracy.

Bureaucracy is a nightmare.

For instance.

I'm going to give an example.

It's not like a business thing, but I'm building a house in my hometown in Alcoy.

So I filed, I asked for a license to build it.

It's taken nine months.

I still don't have an answer.

And each time that I ask, they showed me the same tower of papers and say, okay, no, Jos is around here.

Okay, but it's taking like four months.

Yeah, but some people are.

Or can you pay for it to go to the top?

I don't think so.

Or maybe.

Yes, but if that's the case, I don't have the money to pay for that.

Okay, no, but I mean now, speaking seriously, just to take this into consideration, because a good deal can change a lot depending on the bureaucracy and who.

Really the bureaucracy affects the business effectively more than.

Because when you say that to me, I just think you can wait here, you can wait nine months in England.

But I mean, it's just ultimately it's a cue, you know, there is limited corruption to jump the queue.

I mean, I. I've basically seen any ability to do anything corrupt or pay a bill.

You can ring up and sometimes just try and use emotional appeal to say, look, I really need a help with something.

Can you help me?

Is there any way you could look at this and you know, nice people sometimes try and do nice things.

You know, I remember when I started working as a lawyer, I worked with an older lawyer in Iwa.

He told me that when he was young, if you wanted your case to go faster, you gave the role reit.

You, you file the writ with some notes within the papers.

So you have €50 within you Know, inside.

Oh really?

Inside of.

Yeah, of a document.

So that when, you know, the public servant received it, took the money and he put it on top of a.

Pile, but he could just take the money and leave it where it was in the park and there's nothing anyone could ever do about it, you know?

Yeah.

I mean, interesting.

But yeah, you're saying it's a little bit more though than being in the queue.

As you know, I, I remember years ago I was dealing with the company coming in and this lady kept saying to me, I still laugh about.

Because we were trying to do the VAT registration and she wanted it sooner.

She says, no, no, I want the other door.

I kept going, I thought she needed the loo or something.

I was like, what other door?

There's that door there.

And then she was like, no, no, the other door.

And I was like, I was like, there is no other door.

You mean the door outside?

You want that door outside because you kept it insisting.

Yeah.

I said, no idea what.

She was so naive, you know, I was like in my 20s and then I was like, I was like, but we're talking.

No, no, I'm talking about, you know, I need this thing quicker and stuff.

And I, I was like, oh, right.

You're like, are you like.

And I couldn't even say it out loud.

I was just like, oh my God.

I know.

I think I know what door you're asking for.

And I was like, no, other door.

I was like, there's a queue.

You get in the queue.

That's it.

You wait like every other person for four weeks.

And actually I found myself slightly riled up because I was like, God, the audacity that you would, you know, jump the queue.

Because we don't like queue jumping.

How difficult is it to open a bank account?

Count Lewis?

No, no, I mean it's not that, it's not that hard.

You know, we have all those antimony laundering, Q.

Whatever time is a company, doesn't it you.

Spain has the concept, we don't have in Britain, that to have a company it needs to have share capital put in it.

And to have share capital put into it, it needs to go in a bank.

That used to be the deal.

Yes and no.

Okay, so you have to, you have to have a minimum of 3,000.

If you have, if you incorporate an SL, a society limit.

Mitada.

Limited company.

Limited company, yeah.

Okay, so it's €3,000, but you can make also a non monetary contribution.

So for instance, if you put.

You contribute with a car.

Yeah, Or a couple of computers and one screen.

Oh, so then you wouldn't need a bank account.

You don't need a bank account for that.

What?

And when the.

When you open it with the notary sits there and opens it, do you have to fly in to open a company?

Do you have to.

Do I have to come in person to open a company?

Well, if you don't grant the powers of attorney to someone acting on your.

Behalf, yes, you can grant the powers of attorney.

So I could sit in Australia or.

Income all the time.

Yeah.

Okay.

And then you just told me at lunch, which I was delighted to hear, you don't need a Spanish director anymore.

Nope.

But everyone has to have a VAT number.

Yeah, good job.

Which is a tax id, effectively.

Tax you very much.

Yeah, tax you very much.

Is that the phrase?

All the time, yeah.

Oh, brilliant.

And are people, good taxpayers in, you know, compliant, as we would say, you know, do people pay their taxes?

Well, we have like a policy state now.

I mean, you know.

Yeah, the tax authorities are really, really aggressive these days.

So if you can avoid paying, probably some people will avoid paying, but not if.

I mean, if you don't pay your taxes beyond a particular number, you can go to jail.

And as I said before, they are really aggressive.

Are you doing E invoicing and digital?

Is it all getting now?

We're starting with that, yeah.

For some institutions now, it's composers, actually.

Which just if you don't know what it is, is like the NHS requires it here is you send electronic invoices that automatically get entered in the books of record and they get sort of verified and it.

It means you can.

Next stages, you can give the information to the government quicker, you know, that's it.

Now.

Now we're into this process.

So if I asked you to send me an E invoice, you could, as a business today, could you?

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, I mean, yes, yes.

But since it's today for all the.

Companies and cash culture, is it like paying.

Using cash to pay for stuff?

Is that.

No, no, because we also have a limit of, I don't know if, €1,000, something like that, per payment.

So it's quite capped.

€1,000 to pay in cash.

You can't pay in cash above €1,000.

If you're a company.

No, if you're a company, yeah.

If you're an individual, I mean, you can pay more in cash, but you will be probably asked by someone at some point, because if you get the money out of bank, I mean, if it's inside your mattress, but probably no one will know.

I'm a foreigner, you know, I'm no longer a member of the European Union.

You know, how long does it take me to get a tax id?

Somewhere, somehow between two to three weeks to four weeks.

Depends.

But it will depend basically on how easy is for you to get the documents that we will need to translate and then to bring before the 30s.

But I know you get in these funny loops when you're trying to form a company.

You do here to some extent.

You know, when you move to this country, if you want to rent somewhere, they need you to have a bank account, but to get a bank account, you need to have an address.

Round and round and round you go.

And people are like, how do you solve that?

I'm like, you find a way.

It happened to me the first time I opened a company here in the UK that they asked me for all these invoices for the gas or for the electricity or for whatever.

So I said, okay, I incorporate in the company.

I don't live here.

Why did they ask you that?

I don't know, it was like 15 years ago or something.

It was for opening the bank account, not for the coping company.

Yeah, well, they want you to live there.

I had to prove that I had some sort of activity here and I said, okay, no, I incorporated.

This is a foreigner.

Foreigner.

I'm really hiding in.

Well, Fintech's finished.

Fix that.

You know, you can go to the wise.com or the air wallets or the, you know, axiom, whatever.

You can go to all these online banks or Fintech solutions and they'll open for you internationally.

But, but, yeah, but, but traditional banks really struggle to provide services to someone who's not resident in the UK and, and, and so forth.

But it's also true that there are many, many Spanish banks that have open branches here in the uk.

Like Santander.

Yes, there are a few of them, but who else?

Santander, who else is here?

I think that what are the big Spanish banks?

Have a bbva.

Oh, bbva.

Yeah, they're everywhere.

Probably got offices in the city.

City, yeah.

And also I think Santander is big here.

Yeah, I know, I know, I know.

They have like a, a greater fintech branch here, I think, in, in, in the uk.

And also, I don't know if Banco Sabadel, which is also quite important in.

International business, Santa is the one, because Santander will look at here And I imagine they might do it in Spain.

And this is unusual is they will open you a bank account in the uk.

They'll look at you globally rather than looking how big big your business is in the UK.

If you're £100 million globally.

Globally, they'll open you a bank account in the uk.

Now, to anyone hearing that, they might think, well, of course they would, that's logical.

But you'd be amazed how parochial banks are.

And they will say, you might be 100 million in Spain, but in the UK you're zero right now, and therefore I'm not interested.

And you're like, it's, you know, that's how banks work a lot.

They don't look at the big picture because they think, you may be 100 million in Spain, but I'm not going to earn any money from you for years, you know, possibly ever.

So why should I bother?

No, that's true, because the first company I created, I told you, I remember that in order to open the bank account, what I did is I opened the bank account in Spain with Santander, and then I came here, said, okay, I have a bank account in Santander.

He told me, but this is a different.

It's a different country, it's a different bank.

So we have our screening proceedings.

So forget about your Spanish bank account.

Still true.

Although Santander will be more.

Understand, they will get it open eventually.

But, yeah, you start from scratch.

Okay, so we've talked about trading in the place, how to set up.

Do you need to be in a capital city?

Would you say to someone?

Someone?

Well, you know, I'm a lawyer, so I always answer all the questions with depends.

That's okay.

Okay, so it depends on.

Okay, depends on what you want to do.

If you want to just move to Spain to work remotely, don't go to a big city.

What.

How are you doing in a big city?

You go to a beautiful place close to the city, close to the beach, where you can live with your children and, you know, you know what I mean?

Just as a British person, when you hear that you've got a country that you can just go live close to the beach, I'm like, yeah, of course they do.

You know, you can live close to a British.

How do you pronounce Ibiza?

To Ibiza.

You can go to Ibiza.

Okay, yeah, you can go to Ibiza.

But of course, if you want to, you know, to meet every day, you want to be, you know, at the center of the world, you want to talk to people who.

To do business with.

Yeah, if you're in a small town with 500 people, you're going to die.

Yeah.

So it depends on.

But, but it's true that depending on what you want to do, you can have like an amazing life in Spain.

How about any?

Are there any, you know, nice incentives or anything?

You know, any, any.

I mean, this is your law, so it's not necessarily your area.

Area, but are you aware that there's sort of lots of government incentives if I come and set up a business in, you know, you know.

Do you know you have a tax law that's named after David Beckham in Spain?

Yeah, we have the LE Beckham, Lee Beckham.

Yeah, the Beckham law and what that means.

Totally.

It's a law that was approved when, you know, the Real Madrid hired David Beckham and they didn't want to pay, you know, all the taxes that imply the transaction.

So it helps you if you're living.

If you've been living for more than five years outside of Spain, then your, your taxation is kept so you pay less taxes.

If you've lived outside of Spain for more than five years and you have.

And you have like a good qualification as a worker in Spain or you are in a company.

Valuable person.

Yeah.

Oh, nice.

Okay.

Yeah.

Well, you see, Britain, we're not the only ones who try and offer attractive tax laws and they offer beaches and tax laws.

We just offer nothing.

Whatever you want.

No, we scrap.

We've scrapped it actually, to be fair.

You can, if you're a foreigner, you can come to the UK for four years and we will.

And he will not tax you at all on your foreign earnings.

That's cracker.

You know, if you don't know that, go look that up.

That's very attractive.

So, okay.

It sounds like an amazing place to live.

Apart from the fact that I have no right to live there anymore.

As a Brit, I mean, there are some visas left, I imagine, if I've got enough money or bringing a business.

Yes.

We used to have the golden visa that if you bought something or you spend like more than half a million, you know, 500 grand in Spain, you could get that golden visa, for instance, by buying a house.

Buying a house is no longer allowed.

Annoyed about the property prices.

That's it.

But if you invest in a company or whatever, then you still can have this golden visa.

We also have a startup visa which is quite similar to what you said before.

You have a zero taxation for your foreign incomes over the last.

I don't remember a number of Years.

And it's quite good also.

It's quite fast.

The point is that we are changing this all the time because depending on the government, depending on the allies of the government, depending.

And a lot of things we change.

What kind of government do you have at the moment?

Left, right, center, middle.

It's left government, but it's supported by like a bench of people with all sort of different approaches.

That's good.

Or just confusing.

It's a nightmare.

It's.

I can tell you it's a nightmare.

It's a.

Because.

Because you never know what's going to happen.

Right.

Okay.

And if I wanted to buy.

Final one.

If I wanted to buy a property.

Okay.

I mean, in.

And I want to buy a nice property by the beach.

Yeah.

Is that like absolute nightmare or is that sort of.

It's not.

You get your tax identification number.

Okay.

And you can buy the house and.

And when you, you get gazumping.

I don't know.

In Britain we have a very long, complicated system for buying and people can leave, you know, you can, you.

You've agreed the price, you've done it last minute.

They can say, oh, we're not going to sell it to you anymore.

Do you go to another republic?

I mean, if, you know, yeah, that happens.

You sign it, you go to the.

To the registry.

Do you want to sell it?

I want to sell it.

You want to buy, you pay the money.

You did that.

Yeah.

Unless you are asking for a mortgage.

That's a real.

Well, I'm going to say a nightmare.

But it's much more complicated.

And not only because you have to go through all this scanning and other screening or whatever is because it also, they send you a proposal.

You have to read it through before the notary public, before going to signing.

You go to the notary public and he explains to you what you're signing.

Then one week afterwards, you go, you come back and then you can sign the document.

Oh, my God.

What is a notary?

Could they be wiped out?

I mean, we don't have them.

So explain.

What is a notary?

Well, it's someone that's being granted the power to.

Well, to say that something has happened or not at this.

It's exactly that thing that is hilarious.

So if you were a notary, I would say, you can you please say that this document exists at this particular moment and I'm here to sign it.

And you say, okay, yes, you are, Luis, and you are signing this document.

Okay.

So I'm putting this and I'm charging you like €200, €300.

Or that's the law.

The concept of the law needs it.

Does it?

Yeah, the concept of the law.

And also it gives faith.

So it says that, okay, you don't need to trust.

Like, this has happened.

Because I'm telling you that this really happened.

When I got married, the first thing I had to do is to prove that I was alive.

You had to prove that you were alive?

Yeah.

So how to.

Your wife's opinion is not enough.

It's not enough.

It is true.

So you have to have the particular ratio and say, okay, I'm here.

This is my identification card, whatever.

And they say, okay, yes, you are alive.

When I say that bureaucracy is a real problem.

You understand what I mean now?

Okay.

Well, this has been such fun, Louis.

Finally show and tell.

Oh, yeah, totally.

Give us a taste of Spain.

I mean, what could it possibly be?

Taste of Spain are present for you, of course.

Do you know one of our family claims fame?

My father was the largest importer of Spanish wine when nobody drank Spanish wine.

Really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

People thought it was crap in England back in the 70s or whatever it was.

Well, this is a class, you know, I have a wine company also that's called escortify.

They have a subscription of wines.

We don't sell this particular wine.

This is a sherry.

Okay.

This is a Palo cortado.

I'm showing this.

I'm bringing this not only because it's wine and because, you know, in Spain we drink wine and we go partying.

It's not because of that.

It's because, I mean, this particular wine is from a region in the south.

Cherish Sherry, you know?

Yeah.

Sherry's a region in Spain.

I didn't even know sherry.

That's what.

That's what I wanted to tell you.

Yeah.

Okay.

So.

But you know why you think that sherry is like, something British?

Total British.

Yeah.

Do you know.

Do you know the name of Francis Drake?

Yes, Francis Drake, the Spanish.

The Spanish explorer.

Wasn't he was British explorer?

No, he was a privateer.

British privateer.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, that's it.

Queen loved him.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

He brought, like, thousands of barrels of sherry.

That's why it became so popular here in the 16th century.

And that's a good.

I mean, that's a good sample of what happens in Spain all the time.

That we have a good quality of things.

We have a lot of things to add that are good and cheap, good value for money.

But then until someone comes from outside and gives value to them.

We don't believe that it's really going to happen.

And that's why I think this particular wine.

This is.

I mean, should we be open it?

I mean, I don't need to drink today, but should we be trying it?

I mean, or we should be saving it?

Is this answer.

Nice one.

It's a nice one.

Oh, maybe you're gonna.

I think we save it.

You're gonna enjoy it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, thank you.

Thank you, Lewis, for coming today.

Thanks for your great thought.

It's been such a pleasure.

Now, you're involved in many things.

Anything you want to shout out if one people want to look up one of the businesses.

You're involved.

You're involved in wine.

You've got a wine business.

Wine business.

What's the name of that?

It's difficult to pronounce it in English.

It's called descortify, which is.

It'd be something like Uncortchifai.

Okay.

Because descorcha is the act of opening, reming, removing the coke.

Yeah.

That's cultify.

No, brilliant.

Okay, so, well, we'll put all the links in the things.

You've got a wine company.

You're involved, obviously.

You've got Metricson.

Metricson, yes.

Is a firm, law firm.

And if they want to find you.

But it's.

What is it?

Metricson?

Es, is it?

Or.com also.

And I also have this AI company that I founded like, a couple months ago, Nostromia.

AI.

Nostromia.

Like, like, you know, Nostromo, the.

The ship of Alien, the movie.

Yeah.

Brilliant.

Thanks, Louis.

That was brilliant.

Thank you so much for coming and I hope you found that informative.

That was another special of Business Without Baggage.

And we'll see you again soon.

Thank you.