Summary:

Discover the nuances of Irish music sessions through the insights of UK accordionist Luke Daniels in conversation with Tara Connaghan. This episode explores what makes a great session, common pitfalls, and how to contribute positively whether you're a novice or a seasoned musician.

In this episode:

Luke shares hilarious and memorable session mishaps, including a disruptive session in Milltown and an unwelcoming experience with a plastic bag.

The significance of listening over talking and the impact of environment on session quality.

How to join a session when you're just starting out, including practical tips on timing, tune selection, and attitude

The debate over recording sessions silently or with consent, and the ethics surrounding it.

Insights into playful and respectful interactions with musicians of all levels and ages.

A discussion on tuning in different keys and regional playing styles affecting session dynamics.

The importance of not taking oneself too seriously, "don't be a dick", as a guiding principle for session etiquette.

Timestamp Highlights:

0:00 - Introduction to Luke Daniels

2:34 - What makes a session successful: number of players and responsiveness

4:05 - How fragile good sessions are and the importance of natural flow

6:30 - A memorable incident: a disruptive pub session in Milltown

8:46 - The story of a plastic bag and unwelcome gatekeeping at a session

10:31 - Giving feedback to fellow musicians and managing social interactions

13:04 - The impact of recording in sessions and respecting musicians' boundaries

25:14 - How beginners should approach joining sessions and tune repertoire

35:41 - The regional differences in session styles and tempo considerations

41:25 - The balance of structure and freedom in improvisation and etiquette

42:54 - The mystery question: playing in different keys and tuning considerations

Resources & Links:

https://lukedanielsmusic.com

www.sessionetiquette.com

In Tune with Tradition - Patreon

https://www.patreon.com/cw/SessionEtiquette

In Tune with Tradition: The Private Session Experience

www.sessionetiquette.com/retreat

Podcasthon:

https://podcasthon.org/podcaster/in-tune-with-tradition

Donegal Cancer Flights & Services:

https://ionadnp.ie/donegal-cancer-flights/?lang=en

Donate:

https://ionadnp.ie/donations/tabhair-sintiuis/

Produced, recorded & edited by Tara Connaghan and guest editor Anita Alvarez Santos

Keywords:

Irish Music Sessions, Session Etiquette, Luke Daniels, Accordionist Insights, Musical Improvisation, Session Atmosphere, Recording Ethics, Regional Playing, Styles, Musical Connection, Beginner Session Tips, Irish music

Did you tell me something about your accordion?

2

You came to a session with a plastic bag.

3

Well, inversely, yeah, I was the victim of some pretty, as I would say, pretty poor

session etiquette.

4

If you've ever sat in an Irish music session wondering if you're doing something wrong,

this podcast is for you.

5

I'm Tara Connaghan and today I'm talking with UK accordion player Luke Daniels about what

actually matters in a session.

6

This isn't about rules, it's about understanding the room so you can relax and let the

music happen.

7

Hello Luke Daniels, how are you?

8

Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

9

It would be great to hear your opinions on session etiquette.

10

Luke is an accordion player that grew up in Reading in the UK.

11

He has been living in Scotland for the last 15 years and is currently moving to the

Highlands of Scotland.

12

So welcome.

13

Yeah, I'm in the Highlands now actually.

14

What does an Irish music session mean to you?

15

chance to, I guess.

16

It's an opportunity to connect with my playing in a way that I probably wouldn't get to do

on a gig as a rule.

17

um There's a kind of a lucidity and a fluidity to playing music you get in a session when

you've long forgotten whether anyone's listening to you or not.

18

And you're maybe sort of or three, hours into like a, uh physically two hours into a kind

of a workout.

19

And you're just really, you're in a right, you're in a good place.

20

And if it's a good session, then you can, it can sustain you.

21

can kind of sort of sate you and keep you going for weeks.

22

I remember some sessions, I've had sessions that have kept me going for months.

23

You know, so they were so good.

24

And that's why it's so frustrating when someone can come in.

25

You get like an alien object in the session that can come in and just kind of disrupt the

flow or just.

26

you know, usually just temporarily, but on occasion it can obliterate a good session.

27

I've seen it happen.

28

So what makes a good session?

29

I would say not too many players.

30

Everyone is using the majority of their brains to listen to what other people are doing.

31

um

32

Because you can kind of bounce off each other once you listen.

33

I'd say another ingredient of a good session would be people who are prepared to react in

the moment to what's happening.

34

You know, you can always tell, it's like those, if you see a comedian on a panel show, you

can always tell when they're being naturally funny or when they're resorting to their

35

routine and delivering their jokes that they've told time after time after time.

36

And in a session, it's the same.

37

You can kind of tell when someone is...

38

showboating, something that they've played time and time again, or maybe something that

they've practiced a lot.

39

And I think the beauty of it is a good session is that you play stuff, you know, you're

kind of, you're reacting to what everyone else is doing.

40

I suppose that means at any given point, someone's going to have to take the lead, but you

know, you can still take a chance and dive into a tune that pops into your head two

41

seconds earlier and just see what happens and see what key you end up in.

42

stuff like that, that's the best thing about sessions for me and doing that with other

really brilliant musicians is a real treat, although a rarity.

43

uh

44

Yeah, yeah.

45

I wonder what makes it so rare?

46

There's a lot of things have to be in place, don't they?

47

And it's fragile as well.

48

I mean, you could ensure that, couldn't you, by sort of excluding people from sessions.

49

But unfortunately, you can't do that either.

50

That's like the wrong thing to do.

51

It has to happen naturally.

52

Yeah.

53

Yeah.

54

So yeah, yeah.

55

You just have to hope that all the things are all the ducks are lining up in a row

56

Yeah, and if they don't, if they're not or if one of the ducks falls off the wall, just,

you that's just, you have to roll with it.

57

Yeah.

58

Yeah, yeah.

59

Sometimes sessions at festivals can really be one of those kind of they can be both.

60

They can be the best sessions ever.

61

And even though they can be a bit bigger than the ones that we'd prefer, but they can be

just a bit more giddy.

62

I suppose the difference at a festival is that you might be bringing together musicians

that don't play together all the time.

63

So they're feeling around to see like the common repertoire in real time.

64

Occasionally I hear someone will suggest a first tune and then perhaps if they're not that

confident they'll suggest a second tune and a third tune even as well.

65

that's in terms of like an unwritten etiquette for me that would be like...

66

You don't really do that you know you don't even announce the tune if you want to play a

tune play the tune and then see what happens.

67

Yeah, yeah.

68

Yeah, just it feels like there's a little bit of lack of confidence if you have to

announce the tune because you're hoping that somebody else will back you up maybe.

69

Just to double down on that, I wouldn't hold that against anyone.

70

I think I've probably done it myself at some time.

71

If I've been in a session and I haven't felt that confident, you just don't want to be

left going into a tune on your own.

72

Or if you're not confident doing that, then that's a way of potentially avoiding that.

73

But it's best just to fly by the seat of your pants, isn't it really?

74

Yeah, maybe don't start it in the first place.

75

It depends.

76

Can you ever remember a session that went really, really, really wrong?

77

Or maybe not really, wrong?

78

Do you want to describe one?

79

Do want to describe something kind of that sticks out in your mind or?

80

Yeah, mean, one of the earliest ones I remember, well, I think I was telling you this one,

wasn't I?

81

I was in Milltown years and years ago.

82

I was only about like 15, 16.

83

And it was a brilliant session happening in one of the pubs.

84

And someone came in, some randomer, sort of walked through this very, very busy pub.

85

And all the people that were kind of of curved around us pushed his way through into the

middle of the session, squeezed his way into like a non-existent seat.

86

made, you know, made space for himself.

87

And then so he did ask and said, it's okay if I sit in with you.

88

And, but at that stage nobody was going to say no.

89

So yeah, he's there already.

90

And then he proceeded to get out, pull out a don't remember if he had a case for it, but I

remember it there being like a reveal.

91

And he pulled out this, this like a big stick with nails hammered into it and bottle tops

attached to the nails and then proceeded to kind of almost conduct everybody.

92

by banging the jangly stick against the floor.

93

And he lasted about 15 seconds.

94

that was, it was, wasn't, the musicians didn't have to do anything, but the people

listening dispatched him pretty quickly.

95

I remember that.

96

Did you tell me something about your accordion?

97

You came to a session with a plastic bag.

98

Well, inversely, yeah, I was the victim of some pretty, as I would say, pretty poor

session etiquette.

99

But I guess it's maybe understandable.

100

Yeah, because I think it may have been may have even been the same year I got the bus over

to Milltown from Victoria coach station in Reading and stayed with some friends that we

101

had, family, friends that we had in Slough.

102

And so I was just kind of flitting about pub to pub on my own.

103

I mean, I remember Eoin O'Neill, the bouzouki player.

104

I saw him a couple of years ago in Ennis and he was saying, God, I remember that time that

you were kicking around Milltown.

105

We were kind of saying, you know, who owns him?

106

Who owns that child?

107

And I was and I spoke to my mum about it as well, because I've got kids of my own now.

108

And she said, we couldn't have stopped you.

109

You you just went over.

110

So I went I walked up into a session in Mullagh

111

And at the time, I don't know why, but I was carrying my bag, my box around in a Tesco

plastic carrier bag.

112

Because I didn't have anything else.

113

I think maybe it was like a travel thing.

114

I didn't want the extra weight of carrying the big old case.

115

Even though was only a little Hohner black dot.

116

And I sat down in a session and I think one of the musicians who was sort leading the

session took one look at this bag and thought, Belter you know, and

117

Maybe that would have been excusable to think that, but he didn't even let me play a note,

which I thought was a little bit mean spirited.

118

He just kind of leaned in and said, yeah, I don't think you want to play in this session.

119

You won't know any of the tunes, he said.

120

It's best if you don't.

121

And I kind of wilted and sort of folded off and went back.

122

And all I would say is I would never do that to a kid.

123

I would bring him in and, you know, all the really good musicians that I've seen.

124

was at the Ullapool

125

about a month ago um having tunes with Fred Morrison, who's a fantastic uh Scottish Piper.

126

uh he was, to be fair, was, he was coasting.

127

He was playing one of these kind of evening sessions with lots of very earnest,

middle-aged amateur Pipers who'd been up for the weekend to learn from him.

128

And he was being grand, he was okay.

129

Anyway, this young lad that we'd brought along, he was a great player, uh started to play

and Fred came alive, you know, that was the point where he actually started to play.

130

And he knew instantly, he saw Alex's hands, he said, my God, he's got good hands, great

hands, great hands.

131

So that's the kind of the response you'd like to see to any young person.

132

um Have you ever been on the other side where you've had to give a little bit of feedback,

shall we call it?

133

Yeah, I made a terrible mistake once actually.

134

um It's the only time I've ever done it.

135

And I learned from it.

136

I felt awful.

137

I used to arrange music in the Reading Irish Centre.

138

We used to get bits of funding to do various things with like this or the, you know, the

OAPs there and stuff.

139

But there was a session on the Friday night.

140

And they, to be fair, Irish music was not popular at the Irish Centre in Reading.

141

They used to insist on keeping the jukebox on.

142

And if anyone put a song on the jukebox, we would have to stop playing even if we're in

middle of a set.

143

I have to say probably there are places in Ireland that would do the same.

144

know, music is not popular in Ireland either.

145

There was a group of old bodocks that used to come in and play cars and they used to hate

the music and they would be forever putting music on the jukebox.

146

So that you couldn't play Anyway, I thought the reason for that might be because the

session wasn't good enough.

147

So I brought a fiddle player over from Ireland, a really great fiddle player, to join the

session.

148

We'd sort of paid for them to come over for a weekend and just do a couple of lessons and

just, you know, so they could hear like the real stuff.

149

Yeah.

150

And we rocked in.

151

to the Friday night and no one, know, for weeks and weeks and weeks there'd been no one at

this session, we couldn't get anyone to come.

152

On the night I brought this really good fiddle player over, this guy turns up with an

electric fretted bass and an amp, like who I didn't know from Adam and I'm thinking, God,

153

this is gonna ruin the whole thing.

154

So yeah, to my shame I said, could you not play?

155

Could you leave the bass, you know, could you not play tonight?

156

Anyway, it turned out he was actually a really good bass player and had played with loads

of folk musicians and even though didn't play that night.

157

I knew him by name, not by face.

158

yeah, just felt a bit of a dick ready for doing that.

159

But at the same time, you can't you could be forgiven, maybe for the conclusion that you

draw in the same way that the guy who, you know, turfed me out the session would have

160

thought plastic bag is not a good sign.

161

Yeah, I have done some...

162

I've done a couple of regrettable incidents myself.

163

Maybe this podcast is the reason why I'm trying to make amends Yeah.

164

is therapeutic for all of us.

165

Sessions outside of Ireland, do you think they're more vulnerable to breaches of session

etiquette or does it really matter?

166

you?

167

That's a good question.

168

No, I think people are people everywhere.

169

there was some pretty outrageous lack of session etiquette.

170

Actually, you weren't there on the Friday night.

171

I'm not saying anything else.

172

Well, actually, I will go into it.

173

will go.

174

I don't understand why people who...

175

see someone who's clearly known, clearly a professional musician and has done, who has

done gigs the like of which most of us can only dream of doing, played on stages the likes

176

of us and then listen to them sing and then think actually do you know what would be

really good now if I went up and you got your phones out and film me singing like a fairly

177

almost passable version of a Mary Black song so I can put it my Instagram feed I'll sit in

the middle of the session so everyone will have to stop and it's just it's not really

178

They're not coming in to communicate anything with the other musicians who've been

communicating with each other for the whole evening.

179

All they want is their Instagram moment and then they go.

180

And that's just abuse.

181

That's just abusing.

182

And it's a lack of, you know, it's a lack of respect for someone who spent their entire

life becoming a really, really great musician, singer, thinking that you can share a space

183

with them just because you get a notion.

184

So that's my first firebrand statement of the interview.

185

Come on tell us how you really feel I was just mentioning that I thought um the table that

we were playing at, remember the session we were playing at, was it on Saturday?

186

I the table was the biggest.

187

So I think even objects can be in the way as well or can cause maybe just that flow not to

happen as much as it could because we were just so far away from each other.

188

And was only just because there was a big table in the way.

189

When I was thinking about this, yesterday the word flow kept coming into my head and

that's really the lack of etiquette is anyone that disrupts that flow and that could be

190

someone with very little musical ability coming in and doing something that's, you know,

no problem at all with someone coming in who perhaps can't play the instrument very well

191

sitting and playing along with people.

192

What I don't like is when someone

193

comes in and does something that everyone has to stop and listen to them.

194

that's I mean, if you just the obvious parallel every time is, would you do this in

conversation?

195

You know, I mean, I was telling you, I started my job with Amey as a graduate engineer

last last July, and I have to do these team calls with like really experienced engineers

196

who working on the Kingston Bridge in Glasgow.

197

And it would be a bit like me just on this teams call suddenly just unmuting my mic and

saying, everybody, everybody stop, stop, stop talking about this.

198

Because I've got a poem about bridges that I've written and I want to read to you.

199

In fact, I'm going to sing it.

200

Even though I'm not a singer, I'm going to sing you this poem and you can all listen for

the next five minutes and then I'll get a clap.

201

It's like you just wouldn't do it.

202

So why would you do that in a kind of a pub?

203

But I guess it is a public house.

204

Maybe the clue is in the name.

205

Maybe, and maybe because there's a little bit of alcohol taken and people have get a

little bit more courageous when there's alcohol.

206

Yeah, that's can think, I'll do this.

207

Yeah, that's true.

208

That's true.

209

Maybe, yes, not meant badly.

210

I think it's just unawareness.

211

So some some pubs, mean, you walk into some pubs and you're like, this is a great place

for a session and other pubs, not so much.

212

yeah, the environment makes a big difference, isn't it?

213

When I was teaching a lot of the more successful music projects I ran were in really nice

spaces, you know, a really nice kind of um inspiring spaces, beautiful buildings and

214

things like that, beautiful rooms that kids would often

215

get, you know, they'd achieve more if it was a case of coming to a nice space every week

and maybe it's the same recession.

216

Yeah, that reminded me a bit like during the Fleadh in Letterkenny actually.

217

um And there was a great pub in there, Blake's pub.

218

How long ago was the Fleadh in Letterkenny?

219

20 years ago nearly.

220

um I suppose at the time there wouldn't have been an awful lot of music in Letterkenny.

221

And I was kind of worried about where where would we play, where would be the good places

to play?

222

But there was one pub called Blake's and the publican at the time, you know,

223

When you're playing sessions in Ireland, sometimes you're very aware that a lot of people

don't like Irish music, which is an awful thing.

224

oh The Ordinary Joe Soap isn't that keen on Irish music.

225

so, know, bar staff, especially if they're hearing it all night, the last thing they want

is to keep hearing it and keep hearing it.

226

And, know, they want to kick you out.

227

but it's so good it's like i don't understand it's so good

228

But this one pub, Blake's, at the end of the Fleadh after us playing there all week or

maybe 10 days, um and at the end of it, you know, it was kind of like three o'clock in the

229

morning or something.

230

And we were there, kind of kicking everybody out and saying, right, it's time to um maybe

I shouldn't say the name of the pub.

231

Yeah.

232

In a pub in Letterkenny at about three o'clock in the morning, we were being kicked out or

everybody was being kicked out.

233

And so we were kind of

234

thinking, well, know, fair play to the staff.

235

They put up with us for a whole week.

236

We better pack away so that we're not kind of keeping them from going home or really don't

want to hear it.

237

They're probably all Irish music-ed out at this stage.

238

um And the owner came over and said, I know it's kind of late, but look, the staff haven't

really had to got to hear properly any Irish music.

239

Would you stay on for another 10 minutes and play a few tunes just for them?

240

I've never experienced it ever since.

241

last book.

242

But it was lovely.

243

Yeah, why would you be worried about mentioning the pub?

244

That's a good advert.

245

Just thinking, you know, the law doesn't allow for 3am closing.

246

But it was, you know, 20 something years ago.

247

But it was a really nice, just really nice environment to be in.

248

And they kind of closed the doors as well so that they allowed, they controlled the flow

of people, of movement in and out.

249

So it was quite controlled.

250

So the pub was never too packed and it was only full of musicians as well.

251

I remember doing a TV thing in Galway about 10 years ago now and it was a young director.

252

So one of these music programs, have lots of different musicians playing in all different

corners of the pub.

253

they'd got like just members of the public drafted in to stand around drinking free drinks

for the afternoon.

254

This is great, you know, and initially for the first sort of two, three, four, five hours.

255

Anyway, this young director

256

was not really on top of the kind of the scheduling and we were still going at like half

past 11 pushing midnight and the musicians were like they wanted to go home everybody

257

wanted to go home you know so they locked the doors and they wouldn't let anyone out

because this director he needed people standing around looking like they're having a great

258

time.

259

you can't go home we've got to film this one again.

260

And you need to be standing there because you were standing there earlier Yeah, it's such

a.

261

Yeah, it's hard to something in those kind of recording environments to be in, in the flow

or.

262

Yeah.

263

natural.

264

But it's okay.

265

It's okay to kind of to let to let go of that and think well it's just just what it is.

266

You know the situation is where you are going to play your best.

267

There's no point giving yourself a hard time or working too hard to recreate something

that's supposed to happen naturally.

268

On the topic of recording, m what's your opinion on people recording at sessions?

269

Well, as someone who is, yeah, I'm not not averse to like getting the old phone out.

270

What I might do, what I do do is get my phone out and I record like a tune once through.

271

You know, I won't make like a recording that could clearly be used, but I want a

reference.

272

If I have a tune I really like, um I'll just get my phone out and just record it once

through.

273

It's usually the B part and then the A part because I haven't been quick enough to get it.

274

happens me too

275

That's fine.

276

It just gives me a reference.

277

Yeah, it's when you hear someone coming in, when you hear like a tapeworm coming in and

setting up mics and just recording.

278

Although there was a guy that used to do that, wasn't there?

279

Who's I'm sure I could mention called Steve Moran, who used to record all the sessions in

Milltown.

280

And his nickname was the tapeworm.

281

He was a lovely guy.

282

Everyone thought he was a lovely guy.

283

He was very popular.

284

um

285

But at end of his life, he had an unbelievable archive of sessions recorded over like 40

years.

286

Wow.

287

So it was a great thing to do.

288

I think people they bristled a bit when they saw him coming because it adds a bit of extra

tension, doesn't it?

289

And of the older musicians, I remember when I was a kid, some of the old musicians were

really nervous about being recorded because they thought it was going to sort of take

290

something from them.

291

bit like the Native Americans not wanting to have their photographs taken and all this

kind of stuff.

292

I think it wasn't Neilidh Boyle, the fiddle player that composed the Moving Cloud from

Dungloe didn't want to be recorded because he thought it would take part of a soul away.

293

Yeah, I remember meeting a box player years ago who was the same kind of thing.

294

Maybe they know something we don't.

295

Maybe.

296

What about recordings?

297

So recordings that are used for educational purposes we've talked about, what about

recordings that people come in and then, you know, video it and maybe put it up on their

298

socials and...

299

Not on.

300

Not on.

301

Totally not on.

302

I guess if I get paid to play in a pub and I sign a contract that says any recordings will

then yeah, I guess that's...

303

But if I'm out just doing my thing, having, you know, which is often the case if I'm out

playing a session, I'm just there on my own time having hanging out.

304

Yes, totally not on.

305

If I came round to your birthday party...

306

and or your Sunday lunch.

307

It's difficult though, isn't it?

308

Because you are in a public house.

309

But then, no, if there was a birthday party in a public house and some people just in a

corner table and they were perhaps there was someone telling a good joke or even just

310

having a conversation.

311

And I went and stood next to them and filmed them and then posted on my Facebook.

312

How do you think they'd react to that?

313

But it's a gray area, isn't it?

314

It is very, ah it is hard to um make a circle out of a square.

315

there's best not to worry too much about it.

316

just, I mean, I do, I hope it doesn't seem like I'm getting too het up about this.

317

At the end of the day, I don't worry about this stuff.

318

You can't because you can't you can't there's no point worrying about you can't control,

know.

319

That's it.

320

What kind of advice would you give to people who wanted to join a session who were maybe

worried, you know, they were kind of starting out or they were maybe improvers and what

321

would you kind of, how would you advise them to approach things?

322

There's nothing I'm not sure I say anything that wouldn't seem like really obvious

323

It might be obvious to us as musicians, but it might not be obvious to people who are kind

of learning.

324

I would maybe, you could maybe go to the session once to listen.

325

I guess if it's a festival this wouldn't apply, but if there's a session in your town, you

could go to the session once, maybe do that thing, record a tune, just the first time

326

through or a couple, and then learn them, assuming that you haven't got the of the bog

standard ones.

327

um Well, I think one thing we definitely take for granted

328

It's just the sheer number of tunes that turn over in a session.

329

And what people don't realize is that we don't necessarily know all those tunes.

330

just, the skill is being able to tip along, you know, to a greater or lesser extent.

331

Ideally, to a greater extent.

332

I'm not a big fan of people tipping along and only playing half the tune.

333

I'm not saying that at all.

334

Yeah, if they're not, if they're never going to be able to pick it up within the few

rounds of the tunes that are played.

335

Two passes or three passes if you've hangover.

336

So if it's not going to get picked up at that stage, maybe just don't bother, maybe just

record it and learn it at home first.

337

I tell you what, even though it's a session, I'm always asking myself, if I play now, will

this sound better?

338

And I'm not like, I'm incredibly uh self-absorbed, I can join in with the tune and usually

make it sound better.

339

And if I can't do that, then I won't play.

340

Yeah, think I kind of definitely along the same lines, definitely.

341

even when joining the session, I will have that.

342

Will I enhance this session by joining?

343

If the answer is no, then I frequently don't join it.

344

Yeah, yeah, because you're listening uh more the whole time and you're listening to what

it sounds like as a whole.

345

Of course, there is another reason that you don't join the session, isn't there?

346

The opposite reason.

347

I went into a pub in Belfast on Monday night looking for a tune and I walked in, then made

sure no one could see the box and walked out again, much like

348

30 seconds afterwards, I'd kind of read the room pretty much straight away and was like,

I'm just going to go home.

349

sure there's probably other places where there was good sessions on, you just didn't find

them that night

350

Yes, I'm sure they were.

351

found a lovely session the next night.

352

Yeah, yeah, cool.

353

Yeah, it just depends.

354

Different nights have different strokes for different folks.

355

Yes, that's right.

356

That's right.

357

That's a good point because when I go to a session, I'm not looking for the craic as it

were.

358

I'm looking to find a little environment where I can connect with my religion.

359

It is like a religion definitely.

360

We're like a little cult.

361

So we mentioned listening for people that might be wanting to join a session.

362

Do you think maybe people don't listen enough?

363

What do you mean musicians?

364

musicians or anybody actually.

365

Yeah, uh I've always, the best advice I've been given by musicians of many different ilks

was, you know, music is about listening.

366

You you spend enough time listening to yourself when you practice.

367

It's a hard skill, it's a hard skill to develop, but um it always, whatever is happening

sounds better if everyone's listening to everyone else, you know.

368

Yeah.

369

And also it kind of induces that sort of non-thinking.

370

state of mind that can be so enjoyable because you're not thinking about what you're doing

you're just listening to other and then of course you are reacting but you're not reacting

371

with your with your brain you're kind of just reacting in a more um

372

kind of a less thoughtful way, let's

373

I think this is an area we haven't really touched on before that I haven't touched on

before is that the listening within each other, you know, that that's really important.

374

It sounds counterintuitive to say, it's great because I'm reacting to music in a less

thoughtful way.

375

You know, I'm literally not thinking about it.

376

Yeah.

377

But when that's done right, you will make the right choices.

378

You'll always make the right choices because you're not thinking about what will sound

good, what will impress people, what you're just just reacting and that and spending time

379

in that state of mind is always good for you.

380

So it's what I kind of look to to get from sessions.

381

Yeah.

382

So

383

Yeah, the kind of maybe that the...

384

Yeah, I don't know why it's people that would be listening to that wouldn't...

385

wouldn't kind of get that as well.

386

I guess of course they wouldn't.

387

Maybe it's a personal thing.

388

Maybe as well.

389

I suppose there's different things for adults and for children sometimes.

390

um Maybe children can kind of figure that out or it's kind of heard or said, mentioned at

some stage in their development, whereas as adults it might not be told to them as

391

learners.

392

You know, might not be something that's even in their realm of thought or.

393

Children often have, they're sort of fearless, aren't they, when they play in public.

394

And that's a great skill to have, there's a point.

395

And there is, mean, again, when I was teaching, there's a cutoff point, it's different,

slightly different for all kids, isn't it, depending on their age and their development.

396

But there's a point at which if a kid makes a mistake at a certain age, people will just

go, ah.

397

And then...

398

the next day or the next week the same kid will play a concert or be playing in public and

they make a mistake and people will go, ooh, and it's not fair because there's no warning

399

of that.

400

And all of a sudden, I've seen this with students, they suddenly realise what they imagine

is at stake.

401

And of course, it's all an illusion.

402

It's the young kids that can see the truth.

403

It doesn't matter.

404

But then, of course, we all start investing in this idea that you can't make a mistake.

405

in public, can't, you know, you must be flawless and then that inhibits your creativity

and then that inhibits everything that music should be.

406

And then you spend you spend 40 years trying to get back to that place as an adult.

407

true.

408

God, that's so true.

409

Because you learn from that, experiences.

410

I better not act like that because that's the reaction I got.

411

So I'll do this.

412

this is the reaction I want.

413

I try and reinforce the whole cycle.

414

But then you actually just want to go back to being creative as a child.

415

I mean it's hard isn't it because most of what we're saying is contradictory you know

we're saying yeah you've got to like adhere to a very strict set of etiquette rules but no

416

the whole point is just to be free and just do whatever you want it's both are true and

can be true simultaneously I'm afraid that's why it's such an interesting topic

417

think that's the whole thing about session etiquette, isn't it?

418

It's like, there's no, it's all grey areas and it's all nuances and...

419

I was somewhere in England at a festival.

420

I can't remember where it was.

421

It wasn't a festival.

422

It was like kind of a conference, like one of these folk music conferences.

423

And the singer was, who was quite successful, was asked to lead like a kind of around the

room discussion group about how to be successful in the music industry.

424

And she came up, she had a whiteboard and she wrote in a big marker pen, don't be a dick.

425

And that's kind of a, that's a fairly good rule to live by in sessions as well, you know,

generally.

426

I had thought about maybe like the cover of the book of you know that this these

conversations might kind of lead into me writing a book about session etiquette and I had

427

thought about maybe the title being how not to be a dick in Irish music sessions!

428

I can't believe I'm actually saying this in public but yeah I had to I had thought about

it yeah but I don't know how acceptable it might be might be a little bit too dickish

429

You can always approach it doesn't have to be completely rude.

430

can be, you know, it's like you can approach from the very, it's like it means like don't

be a Tom, Dick and Harry.

431

Don't just be, you know, be better than that and kind of think about what other people

need.

432

So I was also thinking, I was thinking about flow and I was also thinking about levels of

etiquette.

433

So we've discussed the kind of the basic stuff, which is that, you know, if someone's

playing a session, don't perhaps don't do something that's going to demand everyone else

434

to stop doing what they're doing and listen just to you.

435

because there's a reason why they're not doing that.

436

Even the best player in the session is not doing playing in a way where everyone has to

stop and listen to them.

437

So why would you do that as like an interloper?

438

And then we sort of, guess, this sort of the middle ground stuff, which is maybe about

like sort of bodhrán players and guitar players and volume, you know, maybe just adapting.

439

There's nothing wrong with tipping along.

440

Although it's very hard to do that on a set of pipes.

441

I'll concede that.

442

And then I was thinking about like kind of top level stuff, top level etiquette, which

would be, you know, what tunes, what instruments have I got in this session?

443

Therefore, what tunes would be good tunes to play to really bring the most out of all the

musicians I'm with?

444

What can I, what can I give them to really help them play their best?

445

So for example, if you're playing in a session with an Uileann Piper, don't play loads of

tunes in B flat.

446

You know, don't even go near F or G minor even, you know, unless they want to do that.

447

which case great, know.

448

um And then there's the classic one which is perhaps a bit more wide is tempo.

449

I've seen this a lot, seen this a lot over the years, you know, people go in and they

completely misread the whole feel of a session and they imprint, they just kind of squash

450

their tempo onto, uh you know, an existing session and kind of it's very hard to get that

back.

451

And some players, some really good players, they don't engage with tempo at all.

452

They're concerned with groove.

453

And that's really where you want good music to sit, in my experience.

454

Yeah, because it is a dance music after all, so you want it to kind of bounce.

455

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

456

Yeah.

457

um

458

You think there's a different bounce outside of Ireland than inside Ireland?

459

what I was going to say.

460

Sometimes I get really worried in sessions over in Ireland and particularly when I went

down to London where they've got their own kind of style of playing music.

461

I played sessions in Glasgow for like two years, well longer than that, know, say without

a break and if I go down to London I get really worried that I'm just, initially at least,

462

I'm unable to stop playing in a kind of a different style.

463

that when you play tunes in Glasgow, some sessions, there's a way of playing that you

naturally have to play out there just to fit with everyone else.

464

If you played the way they play in London, it would be doing the same thing in reverse.

465

Yeah.

466

It seems really hard sometimes if you're used to playing a bit faster, a bit more kind of

direct.

467

If someone's got the 'nyah' then it's quite hard to stop doing it.

468

And I've had a few sessions going the right way, I just really work hard not to destroy

that for someone that I'm playing with.

469

and eventually, you because you've only got two hours to do it, you know, whereas if you

were there playing for a month, of course you'd get your eye in.

470

Yeah, I suppose it goes back to your saying about listening.

471

You're listening to the others.

472

So maybe it's a bit easier for me.

473

I've got a quieter like a fiddler, usually not as loud as the accordion.

474

So maybe it's a bit harder for you.

475

I've always been quite a quiet player but the listening thing is of course that's a great

general rule but it does seem that if you spend whoever you're playing with most you pick

476

up a lot of their kind of rhythmic ticks and habits and even listening as hard as you can

your fingers just play in that way because that's how you've trained them to do and over a

477

period of time nothing's unchangeable but it's really hard to stop doing that

478

And it really shows it as well when you're playing with someone who's corners everything

differently.

479

you're just riding roughshod over there, really nice phrasing.

480

Yeah.

481

So phrasing is listening to others phrasing is really important as well.

482

And that might not be something that people at different levels would even be aware of,

that phrasing is even a thing.

483

For sure.

484

It's an amazing skill to play in time with another human being, let alone play, you know,

get the phrasing to match.

485

mean, people that you get, you know, master musicians that can sit down and that happens

very quickly.

486

You get, you know, great musicians who play together a lot where that happens over a long

period of time.

487

I did a project in 2016 which involved programming a clockwork uh music mechanism.

488

thing called a polyphone.

489

It plays like a large steel disc.

490

So it's a music box essentially but it's quite a sophisticated fancy one.

491

The polyphone was what was percussed to the gramophone.

492

But it had in the same way that a pianola cylinder has little holes cut out of a cylinder.

493

This has holes cut out of a flat disc.

494

But I worked with an electronic engineer to get this machine, this clockwork mechanism

495

to play in time with digital samples.

496

And you realize just how incredible it is that our brains can adapt in real time to a

shifting tempo.

497

of course the clockwork mechanism ebbed and flowed the tempo that it played back at.

498

Sometimes it was faster, sometimes it was slower depending on the wind, hand, how many

times around the handle was wound.

499

But further to that, it was never even uniform on any play.

500

So the speed would up and down.

501

and we did it, we found a way of doing it using different senses but then the fact that

you could get even just like a beginner would be able to clap in time with a piece of

502

music.

503

Try and get a computer to do that.

504

It's an incredible skill that we've developed over the millennia or whatever.

505

Yeah, so AI will probably not be able to take over.

506

That's a good question.

507

I don't know whether AI can produce beats in time with music that changes.

508

I'm sure it could identify a BPM and then maybe even align itself with the beats on a song

that was on a grid.

509

But if there's something that's changing and ebbing and flowing, uh we do it without

thinking about it.

510

It's really, really hard to get a

511

like a machine to do that.

512

But it's see when musicians do really connect together their bounce, their rhythm and

their tempo and their speed and their everything just kind of clocks in and it knits in

513

together and you're kind of it's a dance, isn't it?

514

You're just dancing with your music, your ears are dancing with each other.

515

Yeah, that's right.

516

it's so cool.

517

Yeah, yeah, oh, it's great.

518

I mean, when it's really fly and then you're starting to sort of pull the envelope as well

and you're playing out of time with each other, just to the point where you can't, you you

519

have to pull it back again.

520

Yeah, I used to play with jazz musicians who used to talk about playing on the O of one or

the E of one or the N of one being like O, N, So they play on the E of one.

521

to play back and the other ones have just push it early but you're still in time you know

you still it's like you hear really great session players they then there's no problem

522

playing to a click track because they're still moving around it you know

523

um When I was m in first year in secondary school or high school, um I wanted to do

woodwork.

524

um I was the first girl to do woodwork.

525

Not sure in the whole country, but in this area anyway.

526

m And I was told I couldn't do it.

527

But anyway, I eventually kind of said, well, I'm going to try it anyway, whether you like

it or not.

528

was a little brave 12 year old.

529

But anyway, the woodwork teacher.

530

m

531

used to say that, you if you're cut, you draw a line and you cut on the middle of the

line, not the right of the line or the left of the but the right of the right down the

532

middle of it.

533

And so I've always kind of noticed.

534

That's a great analogy.

535

That's the same thing.

536

eh

537

Yeah, it's a right not left side.

538

And speaking of woodwork, I must go down to my new house and start building things.

539

So I'm going to, we better finish up here and I will ask you the last question.

540

The podcast, like most podcasts, people do have this kind of mystery question at the end.

541

Where the guest beforehand leaves a question for the next guest.

542

So can you tell me who's left the question?

543

Oh, obviously you did say mystery person, actually.

544

Mystery question.

545

Yeah.

546

So I'm going to turn over the page here and have a look at the question.

547

OK.

548

What opinion do you have of sessions where people tune their instruments to a different

key?

549

Oh, that's a really good question.

550

m

551

I'm kind of, I kind of like them, actually.

552

I know they are exclusive.

553

Although there's a great story about James Byrne and Dermot Byrne traveling down to Sligo

for the Fleadh and rocking up to an E-flat session and just playing there.

554

James Byrne apparently didn't even tune the fiddle up and Dermot just played the box, the

BC, as would be easily, you know, and I, you know, I'd like to

555

I'd like to inhabit a world where that happens and we just play an E flat.

556

I think it's a shame that, you know, with such fantastic musicians, we don't engage with

more keys like that.

557

We don't play outside the keys.

558

Maybe we could just play, have sessions where we don't tune up.

559

We just play in those keys anyway.

560

Maybe.

561

Yeah, well, mean, think Dermott, yeah, did play.

562

There was a concert for his D button broke or something.

563

So all the rest of the band tuned up to E flat and he just played as normal in E flat.

564

We've all heard the stories and then it's only when you see it in real life you go, oh,

OK.

565

I see.

566

Yeah, so thank you so much Luke.

567

You have been a pleasure to chat to and hopefully we'll meet up for tunes again soon.

568

If this conversation helped you understand sessions in a deeper way, please don't keep it

to yourself.

569

Share this episode in your forums, on threads, under YouTube videos or with someone you

know who's quietly struggling to find.

570

their place in a session.

571

That's why this podcast exists, to make sessions more human, more generous and less

intimidating.

572

I'm Tara Connaghan and this is the In Tune With Tradition Perspectives on Session

Etiquette in Irish Traditional Music podcast.

573

As always, stay in tune with tradition.