In this episode of "Dare to Be More," host Anthony Perl speaks with Anna Michalopoulos, Head of Counselling and Student Health Services at MLC School, about the growing issue of perfectionism in girls. Anna draws on 22 years of experience as a psychologist to explain what perfectionism really looks like — from a five-year-old rubbing holes in her page to a teenager who can't start an assignment for fear of getting it wrong.

Featured Guest: Anna Michalopoulos, Head of Counselling and Student Health Services at MLC School

In This Episode, You'll Discover:

• How perfectionism shows up differently at different ages — from early primary through to Year 12
• The difference between healthy striving for excellence and debilitating perfectionism
• Why perfectionism can be both a personality trait and a symptom of an underlying mental health condition
• Practical strategies schools and parents can use together to support girls
• Why daring to make mistakes is at the heart of real learning and growth

Key Topics Discussed:

• Signs and symptoms of perfectionism in girls
• The link between perfectionism, anxiety, and fear of failure
• How MLC School's counselling team works collaboratively with students, parents, and teachers
• The importance of reducing stigma around seeking mental health support
• Balancing academic expectations with emotional wellbeing

About MLC School: MLC School is a leading independent girls' school in Sydney, committed to empowering young women through academic excellence, character development, and innovative education. Our mission is to inspire girls to dare to be more.

Connect With Us:

• Website: mlcsyd.nsw.edu.au
• Instagram: @mlcsydney
• Facebook: @MLCSchoolSydney
• LinkedIn: MLC School

Co-host: Anthony Perl

Produced by: 'Podcasts Done for You'Hashtags: #Perfectionism #GirlsWellbeing #MLCSchool #StudentMentalHealth #ParentingGirls #GrowthMindset #DareToBeMore

Perfectionism in girls.

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Is your daughter afraid to hand in

her work unless it's perfect or worse?

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Not handing it in at all.

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Today I'm joined by Anna Michael

Opolis, head of Counseling and

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Student Health at MLC School.

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In this episode, we explore perfectionism

in girls, including how to recognize the

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signs at every age, why it can become a

barrier to learning in life strategies

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for parents and teachers to help.

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And how to turn mistakes

into moments of growth.

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I'm your host, Anthony Pearl.

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Let's begin today's conversation.

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Well, hello everyone and welcome to

another episode of Dare to Be More, and

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we are really lucky to have Anna with us

and she's going to talk to us about all

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sorts of things regarding perfectionism.

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But uh, Anna, firstly,

welcome to the program.

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Anna Michalopoulos: Thank you, Anthony.

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Thank you for having me.

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Anthony Perl: And look, we should

start by letting you introduce

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yourself properly to the audience.

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Anna Michalopoulos: My

name's Anna Michael Olis.

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I am the head of the Counseling and

Student Health Services at MLC School.

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I am a psychologist and have been

for the last 22 years and majority of

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my professional careers been around

children and young people and in schools.

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Anthony Perl: So how long

have you been at MLC?

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Anna Michalopoulos:

This is my fourth year.

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Anthony Perl: And what's

that journey been like?

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What have you seen over the four years?

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Anna Michalopoulos:

Lots and lots of things.

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It's been an amazing journey.

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I absolutely love MLC school.

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I love working with our girls.

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I, I guess the best part of my job is

seeing a girl go from year seven to

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year 12, and I have done that in my

other schools and watching them grow.

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Not only into young women, but

also if we are working with

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them around mental health.

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Seeing that kind of transpire into a

year 12 girl graduating and going out

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to the real world with more confidence.

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And even if it's just the ability

to seek help in the future, then

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that's a job or done for me.

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Anthony Perl: Absolutely.

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And I think just before we get into

this whole idea of perfectionism.

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You've worked in other schools.

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Do you see a difference between

MLC and and other schools and

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the environment that you've got?

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Anna Michalopoulos: Yeah, so I

have, um, so in previous schools

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there were government schools,

so in different areas and co-ed.

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So I've had the experience of

working with boys and girls, and

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now predominantly just girls.

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And the issues vary from perfectionism

to eating disorders to some of the

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boys having aggressive behaviors.

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So I've seen a lot in

my professional career.

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Anthony Perl: I bet you have.

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And this idea of perfectionism though,

it's one that, is it more prevalent

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first of all in girls than it is in boys?

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Anna Michalopoulos: I think so.

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And again, just maybe because I am around

girls all the time or the last four years

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that we do see some of those tendencies

with girls and at very young ages.

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So the one thing that is

noticeable for us as clinicians

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is what, a five or 6-year-old.

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Girl who has these perfectionistic

tendencies, what that might look

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like compared to someone who's 16.

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So that also varies as well.

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'cause at MLC school we, we have girls

ranging from the ages of four to 18.

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Anthony Perl: So tell me, first

of all, I mean, is there an

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official diagnosis for this?

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Is this something that you

just pick up as a trait?

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What's the way that you view

this in the first place?

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Anna Michalopoulos: I guess it's also

dependent on how the referral comes to us.

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So sometimes when a referral comes,

it may mention the word perfectionist,

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or it might mention struggling with

getting assessments done or handing

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things in, or time management.

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So sometimes that's really

in useful information and so.

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It can start off well, firstly, as

clinicians, we would need to ascertain

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whether it is just the personality trait

or whether it does then meet another

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criteria for another mental health

condition and is part of that diagnosis.

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Anthony Perl: Do you find that girls

or parents sending their girls.

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Thinking that this is something, you know,

this is the suspicion in the first place,

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is that where it sort of starts often?

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Anna Michalopoulos: It it can,

but it also can come from the

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school noticing things as well.

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So if you've got a student in the younger

years who is constantly rubbing out their

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work to the point where they've left holes

in their pages, it may be the teacher

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that then addresses it with the parent and

then the referral comes through that way.

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So it, it can come through lots

and lots of different ways and

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we see it in the different ages,

the different presentations.

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I

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Anthony Perl: mean, you've touched

on a couple of examples, but what

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does perfectionism look like?

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How does it play out

for a lot of the girls?

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Anna Michalopoulos: So again,

dependent on age, a lot of the girls

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are usually really hard on themselves

and have some really unrealistic or.

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Unachievable goals.

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We have girls that they use the word

procrastinate and they can't get started

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on something, and that could also be

part of that perfectionistic trait.

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The fear of failure, the feeling of

hopelessness when they're very so critical

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of themselves, when they avoid trying

new things, when they avoid challenges,

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when they have low self-esteem.

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When.

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A student takes hours to do homework that

would take a peer 20 minutes to do, or

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when they have meltdowns around their

hair needing to be perfect and needing

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hours to get ready in the morning.

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So those are some of the signs

that you would see in a girl.

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Anthony Perl: There's the obvious

things that you talked about in

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playing out in a school environment,

but what are the things that, that

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may have an impact on outside of that?

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Because it's one thing about, you

know, have I done my homework to the

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standard that I would expect to do it,

and does it look good enough versus

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what other things might that have an

impact on in other parts of their life?

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Anna Michalopoulos: Well, I guess

if you do have perfectionistic

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tendencies, moving outside of the school

setting, not participating in things.

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Are new or where they feel that they're

gonna fail, so they won't even try.

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So that could be in a team sport, that

could be in a job after year 12 or a

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casual job while they're at school.

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It can filter through in different

ways, and it's that fear of

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failure when it starts to then

impact other parts of their lives.

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That's when you might think

this needs to be addressed.

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Anthony Perl: And I guess the question

then is, is this perfectionistic tendency,

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is that something that is brought on by

their own beliefs, or is it something

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that's a product of an environment?

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Because that's gonna make a real

difference as to how you address it.

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Anna Michalopoulos: I

actually think it, it's both.

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I think that sometimes it

can be an inner dialogue.

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It's a belief that if they don't do

something perfect, then they're failed.

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And that can come from even

society and the expectations around

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what things need to look like.

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But it can also come from

having parents who may have

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some really high expectations.

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So it could be both.

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Yeah.

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Or it could be part of an

underlying mental health condition

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that hasn't been diagnosed yet.

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So there are some connections between

trauma and perfectionism, OCDs and other

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diagnosis that has perfectionistic traits.

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Anxiety dependent on what the diagnosis

is, or that's the treatment you seek.

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But if it is part of a mental

health condition, then that

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would require treatment.

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Anthony Perl: And how easy is it

for girls ultimately, and whether

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it's through their parents or the

teachers to come forward to you?

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How do you make that process

as easy as as possible?

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Because it's kind of by coming

to you, it's a recognition that

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there is this kind of a tendency.

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Anna Michalopoulos: So I think

there has been a shift in

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mental health over the last.

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10 years and the stigma around mental

health has shifted and I think that girls

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coming to counseling, it's not so scary.

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It's not so stigma focused.

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At MLC School, we have a great system.

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We are in the wellbeing building and

so girls accessing their heads of year

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or the health center, we are present

and around and I think even smiling at

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girls are saying hello when we see them.

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Then makes us less scary.

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I think just us being around and.

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So I think that's changed what's

happened in the last 10 or so

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years around mental health.

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You've got so many great services

out there that like Kids Lifeline

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and you've got Headspace, and

that's been a great shift.

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Back to your question, at the

junior school, we are around again.

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So we are visible.

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We do social groups, we are voluntary.

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So I guess if girls don't wanna see the

school counselor, they don't have to.

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But when.

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We get a referral usually from a parent

or a head of year, we reach out to

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the girls and when we do it via email,

we just say, Hey, this is who we are.

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We would like to come, you know,

for you to come and meet with us.

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This is where we're located.

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Is there a day or time that suits you?

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So we're very informal in that sense.

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I think that makes us more approachable.

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The other thing is the girls

that are seeing us that have

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a good relationship with us.

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Then tell their friends so

we are not so scary again.

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So I think that's helped us as well.

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And we also work really

closely with parents.

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So I think once we work with our

parents and talk to them, then they

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also help communicate that to their

daughters, who then make it more of a

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seamless process to come and see us.

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Anthony Perl: Well, hopefully the

podcast is also helping in breaking

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some of those barriers down as people

get to know you a little bit better.

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I wanted to ask you then, as well,

there's probably, I imagine there are

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strategies that you need to put in

place, but those strategies are going

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to be for the individual, they're

going to be for the parents, they're

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going to be for the school as well.

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So how do you start to lay

the platform for all of those?

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Where does it begin and how do you.

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Break that down into the other areas.

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Anna Michalopoulos: So when we work

with our young girls or our children,

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depending on what campus they are, we

look at what strategies work for them.

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Yeah.

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Every girl is different.

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And so what works for one girl won't

necessarily work for the other.

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So we work with the student as to,

you know, some of the strategies

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they've tried that have worked

and their strategies that.

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Haven't worked.

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And then what we do is then we would

ask them for permission to share

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that with relevant teachers on if

this is happening in class, how?

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How can the teachers

support you in that instant?

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So we do that, I think really well.

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The other thing is that we

would then work with parents.

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We work collaboratively with our

parents, so we might ask them what

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works at home with their daughter?

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Then how we can relay that back at the

school and hey, this is what we found

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works with your daughter at school,

would you be willing to try this at home?

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And the other key stakeholder is that

if our girls are already seeing external

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teams or external psychologists, we would

work in calibration with them because

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they would have strategies that could then

not help us support the girls at school.

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So it's a bit of everything.

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Anthony Perl: And I imagine that one of

the key things is homework is a big deal,

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and that idea, as you said, of handing

it in on time because of all of those

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things that we've just listed before.

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So you know, is one of the

strategies around more space, more

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time, is it just encouragement?

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How do you tread that boundary between

looking at a child and saying, look.

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They're going to need a little

bit more time versus they need to

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understand these are the time limits

and you do have to keep to that and

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forgo what you believe you're trying

to achieve in that perfectionism

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that maybe isn't even achievable.

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Anna Michalopoulos: Look, that's a

bit of a tricky one because we also

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are in a school setting and there are,

you know, depending on what pathway

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the girl goes through, where you don't

wanna set up a girl to have extra time.

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To do something when come the

formal exams, that pressure doesn't

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change, like that time won't change.

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So we don't wanna set up a girl to think

she needs extra time or an extension

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when that might not be possible at

like at A HSC formal exam level.

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So I'm always cautious of that.

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Now we will try those

little strategies prior.

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To, to that end point.

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And if that doesn't work, then we

are great advocates for the girls.

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And then we would put forward, would

you be consider, you know, we might

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go to the teacher and say, look,

can we give this student extra day?

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But we have to tread carefully because

there are requirements around the, the,

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we are talking later in school, the formal

big exams where that's not an option.

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And we don't wanna advocate

for that when that might not

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be something they're gonna get.

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And then we have to take it away from

them if it's gonna help the student.

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And it's something we can

be flexible at school.

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We are great advocates for that.

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Or we might be a bit trickier, we

might try another strategy where we

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say to the student, look, how about

you hand in your first draft no matter

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what that looks like, and wait for

the feedback and then learn from that

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feedback and do your second draft.

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So we have to be a bit creative that one.

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Anthony Perl: I, I guess one of

the things we should ask as well

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is are there any positives to, to

this, I mean, it's not necessarily

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all negative being a perfectionist.

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Anna Michalopoulos: Oh, absolutely.

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Look, I think most of us have high

standards and we wanna do, well.

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I, again, the line in the sand is

when this perfectionistic tendency

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or trait then becomes a problem.

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When it stops them trying new things,

when it stops them handing things

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in, then it does become a problem.

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So we know that striving for

excellence motivates us, keeps us

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going, and we're trying our hardest.

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When we don't try something and we

don't hand it in, then that's a problem.

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So you need to weigh up what the impact

of the behavior, what the function of

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the behavior is first, why are they.

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Using these traits and then if it's

becomes debilitating or demoralizing and

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then stops them from having a fulfilling

life, then it becomes a problem and

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then it does need to be followed up.

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Anthony Perl: One more question.

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We, the podcast is called Dare

to Be More because of, obviously

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that is part of the school's

identity, but I wanted to ask you.

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Dare to be more in the context

of what we've been talking

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about, imp perfectionism, you

know, how do you relate that?

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What do you think that means to, to

you, to the audience, particularly

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those who might be with this

kind of perfectionist is trait.

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Anna Michalopoulos: I think we

learn more from our mistakes and

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doing things wrong, and I think

Dare to be more is give it a go.

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And take on any feedback, enjoy the

process of learning new things, and that

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you learn more from those failures and

mistakes than not trying things at all.

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So I think that data be

more is just go for it.

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Give it a go, whether it's something

that's not perfectly done or something

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that you've spent so much effort to

do, that should be the rewarding that.

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Give it a go dead a bit more.

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Anthony Perl: Fantastic.

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I really love that.

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That's a great way to end the program.

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Thank you so much for going into some

detail about something that I think is

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quite widespread and hopefully there's

a few people sitting there listening

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at the moment that maybe relate to

it, whether they be a parent or be

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they a teacher, or be they a student

and have got something out of this.

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And we'll come forward and have some

conversations with you in the future.

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Thank you for being part of the program.

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Anna Michalopoulos: Thank

you, Anthony, for having me.

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Thank you.

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Anthony Perl: Thank you for

joining us on Dare To Be More.

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If you enjoyed this episode, please

subscribe wherever you get your

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podcast so you never miss an episode.

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Your likes and comments also

help more families discover

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these valuable conversations.

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For more information about MLC School

and their approach to girls' education.

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Visit their website@mlcc.msw.edu.au.

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Check out the show notes

for more information.