In this powerful and heartfelt episode of Lessons from Your Hairstylist, Sarah sits down with licensed clinical therapist Brendan McCarthy, her therapist and the founder of Session Psychology in East Nashville. Brendan shares a deeply insightful look into the transformative nature of therapy, especially for creatives, and how tapping into our authentic selves can change the trajectory of our lives.

In this episode, you will hear about:

• The concept of “unrest” and how recognizing it can be the first step toward meaningful healing.
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• How Brendan uses experiential therapy, getting clients out of the chair and into movement to deepen breakthroughs.
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• The importance of creating safe, relational spaces that feel aligned with a client’s world.
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• A behind-the-scenes look at Brendan’s own healing journey and how it informs his work with clients.
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• The rising interest in alternative therapies, including EMDR and psychedelics, and how they can lower defenses to allow for deeper healing.
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• Brendan’s analogy of therapy as an “emotional gym” and why ongoing mental health care should be normalized and accessible.

Plus, stick around for the “Cut It or Keep It” segment, where Sarah asks Brendan to weigh in on everything from teletherapy to BetterHelp to using therapy lingo with family and friends.

This episode is for anyone who has ever felt stuck, overwhelmed, or disconnected and is ready to do the work to find their way home to themselves.

Resources:

• Session Psychology – Brendan’s therapy practice in East Nashville
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• Sessions Podcast (hosted by Brendan & team)
• 
  

 If you loved this episode, please subscribe, rate, and share with someone who could use a little healing or a dose of self-discovery.

Well, hello and welcome to the lessons from your hair stylist podcast. I'm your host and hairstylist friend, Sarah Cruz. And I wanted to bring on somebody today who I've known for several years. When I first started this podcast one of the big things to me was I wanted to bring on people who

you and I can learn from and get value out of. And this person is someone who, was always in the back of my mind I always thought of him because I just knew he would be fascinating. And the reason why is because, He has been my therapist.

So you might be thinking, my gosh, this is going to be a long episode, but it probably could probably could be but Brendan has been around the bench

me quite a few times and the value that I have gotten from our sessions together has just honestly been life-changing in so many ways and I'm so excited that he's here

he's

licensed clinical therapist He has his own practice here in East Nashville, Tennessee called session psychology and He he does all the things he's a dad. He's a husband. He is somebody who has a very very full life and Probably a lot of people trying to bend his ear all the time so we are very lucky to have him on

So every time I have sat down with Brendan in a session, I have walked away feeling transformed in some way. And that's my hope for this episode as well. And this podcast, as you know, is really about transformation in your life, little things that we could do every day, Little actions that we can take, little things that we can do for ourselves. And I think that

Getting your headspace in the right place is very very important for that I think everything really comes from kind of what's going on between your ears, And how that works into everything else in our everyday life how happy we are how fulfilled and and how how well we're able to live and Brendan he has helped him you with that So Brendan McCarthy Thank you, sir for coming on. I am so happy though

you're here

I'm so

honored by your kind words. Thank you.

Well, it's been a while since I've seen you. feel like you need to get back in there.

I know, I know it has been.

When did we meet? Do you remember?

I think it's been probably a year and a half maybe? Maybe longer. Oh!

But I mean, originally, when did we originally

meet? It was still, was it post COVID? It was like right around the start of COVID, right? Or was it before that?

years ago maybe three or four years ago.

I don't even remember. know our first one was a... No, we don't know. We don't know. Well, time is like... Well, time's a blur since COVID. So I remember that our first session, I was actually sitting in my car. Yeah, I just did.

You and I are the wrong people to be asking this question. We have no idea.

It's true. It hijacked it.

Wow, it was virtual.

So it probably was during COVID then. Because it was probably, yeah, virtual because of that.

It could have been. It could have been.

So that was the first time that I met you was over my phone sitting in my car.

Yeah, and you guys referred

to me via a client of yours who is a client of mine. Yeah, I love when that happens.

I did it. Yes, yes. And I

love that because again, that's sort of what this podcast is about. It's about bringing those relationships that I have with clients and other stylists behind the chair and those things that we share and bringing them out onto this platform. So this is like so perfect that it happened that way. She turned me on to you and then I found you and then it's been really life changing for me.

That's right. Yeah.

That's right. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and then we also realized that we had, that our spouses knew each other, right? Like that was sort of the other behind the scenes that was like, whoa, this is kind of wild. Like from their own whatever music world knew each other too. And so small world.

Yes.

Yes. Yeah.

It was. And then that just added that whole other layer to our sessions together because it's just kind of funny when you've got that also those personal ties and those connections to.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah,

I definitely have a sense of your world already, being married to somebody who's also in a similar industry. So I could relate with you even on that personal level too. Like, I get it, I get it, having a spouse who, you know, music industry stuff, so.

Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, I know you do. Your wife is an amazing artist, an entertainer herself. And so you get that world. You really counsel people who aren't.

Yeah. Yeah.

Creatives who are in some sort of a creative field

Being in that world yourself, do you find that

work more with people who are artists or creators.

Yeah, do. I do. think because I have such a familiarity with that world that I think because of that, I do get to sort of bring in a maybe unique lens because

know their world inside and out on so many different levels. so when people who are, and I would say it's creatives, professionals.

Like I think that's the, like they are using some expression of that professionally. Like that tends to be a lot of the niche that I work with. And because of that, we can move pretty far, pretty fast, just because as soon as they come in the door, I already have a pretty good sense of a bit of their world.

And I think, especially for artists, that's a little can be a lot of the disconnect in the mental health world is they don't want to go see another doctor midtown in like a medical park. They don't want that. That's not the thing that they're after. If they are going to do therapy.

going to enter into it, they want somebody I think who there's a little bit more of a relational framework to what we're doing. There's a familiarity there where I am somebody who's of their world. They're not coming here and feeling like they're in this foreign place and they're visiting. They feel like, this feels like home too. This feels like another

extension of that and I think that's the thing that people appreciate and want. So I think that's why I've been able to kind of carve out my little spot in that

Yeah.

Well, that's very you because I noticed from the first time I was there, both settings that you have been in since I've known you felt very.

Yeah, yeah, the two different locations.

artistic in some way, creative. They felt like a very comfortable, very casual space, very curated space. I know the first one that I came to, I think it was an old church over there in East Nashville. And

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I loved all the experiential things that we did. First of all, I loved your approach to the sessions that we had, but also it's the setting. It's the entire picture. When I went there and it's this old church, there will be times where you might say, let's get out of here. Let's go sit on the front steps. Let's go out and take a walk. We weren't just confined to the space. weren't just, you're sitting on a

Yeah.

Yeah.

sitting over by a desk and I'm sitting in a chair and it's just very clinical. wasn't any of that. It was very much just like how we're talking now and doing some different experiential things too to work some things out in a tangible way but also we would get up and move.

Yeah.

It was getting up and moving and that was a very helpful way for me as a creative and as an artist in so many ways to be able to get those things out physically and to work those things out in that way. Was that something that you brought originally as far as your background when you decided to go into your field?

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. It is very much that is the way that I do my best learning is by experiencing things. I mean, I was a kid who I hated school. I couldn't tell you sitting in a classroom and learning that way where it was just like one teacher sitting up front and it was like just a, you're just listening.

maybe talking a little bit. I just did not do any learning that way. But the one day that I went on a field trip, I could tell you about that day. You know, like that was the day that I was fully engaged. I was immersed in like, was moving, getting on the bus, getting to the museum. was really talking with my friends about, my gosh, what do you think?

this is happening here and there was like this full, there was this full body experience and that's the part that sticks in my mind. I remember that now because of that. So if we're trying to do effective therapy and we're trying to get people to fully integrate and remember and be able to do real transformation, real growth.

Then I think that that traditional method of coming in for 50 minutes, which is listen and talk, and you sit on the couch, and I sit in my chair, and as soon as the hour is up, you stand up and walk out, and that's the amount. I just don't think it's the environment that I do my best learning in, and I don't feel alone in that. I feel like there are others like me and like you.

who would really benefit from that. So by no means am I the originator or creator of experiential therapy. It's been something that's been going on for thousands of years. I just here in Nashville and with sessions and with my clients, it was being able to really figure out how to make that work in private practice.

also been connected to organizations and done some work for that they do retreats and they do workshops and the on sites of the world and the you know there's these amazing wellness retreat centers but in terms of the how do I how do I make that work in a private practice setting like with one-on-one

And so that's been kind of part of the Brendan version of that, like making that, sort of distilling that to what I want it to be.

Well, you are, I feel like you're a master at that. I know that every single session that I was ever in, there would be times where I would come in and say, it'd be like, so what, you know.

open it up, you know, and I'm like, I don't know, I don't really have anything to talk about today. And then, and you know, you said an hour, you're like, oh, you come in for an hour. No, I would have to come in for two hours. And if I, you know, if I could have spent a million dollars and come in for, you know, two months straight, not a million dollars, but I mean, you need more time.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

totally. I mean, it's that expensive.

Yeah.

It was like I was just getting started in an hour. So we go we would do maybe two hour sessions but you know you would I felt like even on those days where I came in and I I couldn't really think of anything. I just kind of

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

you were like, all right, so tell me and you would just leave the space open for me to start in and then you would sort of guide me in the direction that I needed to go and at the end of the whole thing, I was just like, damn, damn, that was great, you know, and what I loved about the way that you operate is, and I think you told me this one time, you said people

Yeah.

Yeah.

don't have time to come every week just on and on and just there's just no end in sight where you just it's like you don't ever seem to get anywhere and I know I've been to therapy before and for the people that are listening right now they they may have tried going to therapy before and and thought it just never does me any good I go for an hour I spend the money nothing happens and I just keep going and we never said no

Yeah.

We we nailed we got some stuff nailed down It's like we were like we're accomplishing some stuff today. We're gonna we're gonna hash some shit out and that's what we did That's what I loved about it was because I felt like that was time well spent every time

We're working. Yeah, we're working.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah,

I think the thing that you're talking about I think that that's a real piece that is missing from a lot of therapy practices. And I hear that a lot, what you just said, of anecdotally. I hear that from clients who have experienced other therapists, from other mental health professionals, where there can be this sense of,

coming in and okay, yes, I understand that this is a space where I'm going to be able to talk about hard things and I'm gonna get to like share my real authentic feelings and, but I don't know if there's a direction, right? I don't know if there's like an actual true north, like where are we? What are we trying to get to? What are we trying to accomplish? Like, is there a main goal in all of this?

that's connected to the thing that I am feeling, which is whatever version of this like unrest is that's going on in me. There's something in me that was big enough that felt like I wanna talk to somebody about this. Something is happening in my life. And instead of just having an open space where it's like, let's just explore and talk about all of that. Yes, that's part of it, but really.

I want you to know that we are trying to get to this spot over here. And so everything that we do is going to be in the service of ultimately, whatever this goal is out here that we're trying to get to, we're going to work towards it. And that goal is a goal that you get to set, and I get to help in that process too, you know? But we're gonna do some work. If you're coming in and you're paying the money that

you're paying, you know, I think we want to feel like, what did I accomplish today? Like, what did we do? And I want to be able to see that, and I want to be able to tell my friend that, and I want to be able to. So I always have that as a true North, in terms of knowing exactly that there is a bigger thing that we are trying to get to, and we are going to do this body of work to get there. And I think people really appreciate that. You know, I think that that's the thing that doesn't...

that feels a lot less like, well, how did that make you feel?

People want more. People want more. Yeah. Yeah.

heard that so much.

You know, as a patient or a client, you seek somebody out because exactly what you said, you know there's something. You need the professional.

to tease it out and to give you the direction. You go because you need help, but you don't have the training to know how to help yourself. That's why you go to somebody else. And I think many times people have had this experience where they've gone in and I've had it myself many times where it's kind of like,

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That's right.

The therapist will say, yeah, that makes sense. I see how you can feel that way. And I'm like, fuck, you know, like, where are we going with this? I mean, I need some help. What are we doing here? And I think too right now in this period of time that we're in, know every period of time that humans are in, we feel like, my God, there's so much happening.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's overwhelming. It's there's so much going on that it can almost feel like this heaviness on top of everything else from just living like your day to day life. And I think maybe it's pretty common for many of us to feel not necessarily depressed, but maybe a little bit just numb.

Yeah.

Or there's

just something underlying where it's just this heaviness and you don't know what it is And that's where you really need for somebody to help you because whatever is causing I would imagine That underlying sort of just gray It's got to be different for everybody and so it can't just be a one-size-fits-all which is why I feel like it's so helpful to See somebody like you who yeah will leave the space open for you to talk

Yeah.

about how you feel, but also can help you get down to it. Because otherwise, why would you come if you couldn't ... You're looking for help. Can you talk about some ways that you pick out or you help people come to that thing that's in there, that little P under the ... All this stack of mattresses of what's causing the pain. How do you help people get to that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a big question. That's a big question. I don't know if I'm gonna have a good answer for that. But I think that term that I used, unrest, I think is a pretty good one to sort of encapsulate that I think we do arrive for different people and at different spots and different timing in their life.

We get to a spot where the strategy that I have picked to do my life, the ways that I show up, the relationships that I have, the choices that I make, the professional decisions I make, the family decisions.

that requires a certain...

set of

It requires a strategy.

for you to navigate your life. You kind of have a, these are the things that I value. These are the things that I care about. And I think for most of us, we arrive at a spot where the strategy that I've picked runs its course. And it's not working anymore. The ways that I've told myself about these decisions that I'm making, the stories that I tell myself about my marriage or about...

my professional life.

All of those ways that I've adapted and moved and I've bigger in this room or funnier in this room or gotten better at this thing.

Eventually those adaptations and that strategy that we've kind of picked out, it stops working. And we get to this spot where all of a sudden that the noise of that unrest is too loud. It's too disruptive. It's something that I'm thinking about all of the time. And it's something that usually by the time I think they're coming in for therapy.

all of the ways too that they've tried to turn down that noise by way of kind of medicating or coping or, okay, I gotta work less or, okay, I gotta do this thing more or I start drinking a little more, I'm gonna change my diet or, know, all the different ways that we cope, those have also kind of run their course. And so they arrive at this place where it's like, this feels like an inside job. This feels like something that I'm gonna need to kind of go in here.

figure out and then all of these external things will sort of follow suit.

When they... Yeah.

can relate to that so much because it's

when you're saying that you've developed these strategies for your life and just how you operate and there does come a time where you wake up and you think I could see that what got me here is not going to get me there. I can't continue this. can't, this is not working and it does come to you where you just think now what?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, and I think that's the part that we get to kind of figure out together in therapy is being able to one, figure out what have the strategies been that you've been using, but at the end of the day, what is the thing that you are after? Like what is the thing that is so disruptive? What is the thing that's kind of like coming into conflict inside? And many times we don't know the answer to that because I don't know how to articulate.

that this thing happens every time my husband walks into a room or this thing happens every time there's a work, there's some work drum.

So being able to talk about the things that create the unrest and then kind of beginning to, that's the part where I think a therapist could be really, really helpful, is being able to understand and connect that to the greater story of self. The greater structure of your value and worth in the world. Your meaning, the bigger why, the purpose of

why you wake up in the morning and get out of bed.

being able to understand kind of the greater narrative, the ways that these adaptations have kind of stopped serving you, and then being able, I think, ultimately, to get back to the truer version of really who you are, the design of who you are. I think my true north with clients, if I get lost in the chaos of a certain narrative or different circumstances or whatever,

is ultimately helping clients uncover their most authentic design of who they are. And that's something that I don't know when they walk in of what that design is. So that also gets to be part of the journey of like, let's figure out who that is. Let's figure out who you were before the world started telling you who you needed to be.

remember you said that to me one time and that was one of the things that we did was we went back to that place where you were brand new in the world and you said just go back to that place who you were before the world basically just started shitting all over you.

Yeah.

Yeah,

kicking the shit out of you, yeah.

Yeah,

and once I did that and it was able to sort of reset and like you said to find that true north I think that that and I can remember that day and I can see me doing that Experience and how much? that

Wow.

changed everything for me just in that short session that we had but when there is this unrest that you're talking about and there's this something underlying and you realize something's not working but you don't know what it is could it be that people don't know really where they're operating from as far as they don't know like who their true authentic self is in order to know what their

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

what their purpose could possibly be. It's almost like there's no, there's no.

Yeah.

There is no true north and so you've got no compass and you're just sort of directionless just at loose ends and it's a frustrating overwhelming place to be I feel like it could cause Procrastination it could cause you know, all of the things that happen to us over perfectionism all of those things that we get wrapped up in and nothing's working is maybe because you've never been able to get to the heart of what

Yeah.

Yeah.

you are and what how you want to authentically live I think that's why that was such a huge deal for me was because I got to know who I really was in that moment and then I had a place to operate from

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah!

Yeah. Yeah.

And I think people don't, you're exactly right, Sarah. Like, people don't even know that that's the right question to be asking. They don't even know when they're coming in what they need or where we need to be headed. So in a sense, some of the first sessions that we get to do is, let me at least begin to tell you all of the furniture that's in the-

Like let me begin to tell you everything that's accessible to you and everything that at the end of the day you have accessible in here. All of the different sources of data that we have. You're right, many of us, we kind of just go off my thinking. Like that's my source of data is I guess there's, okay, so man, I feel all this unrest. I feel all this shit that's happening in my life and.

The only thing that I know to look at and even be able to do anything about is like, at my personality, right? Look at like my character, like what people think of me. Look at my own thinking patterns. Like what keeps me up at night? What are the things that I think about, you know? Beyond that, we don't have many structures in place to know even what to look at. Like people will come in and they'll say, I wanna do a big deep dive on my personality.

You know, like why I'm an introvert, why da da. And your personality and how you, your adult self and kind of how you show up in the world, that's one big piece of furniture that I get to help put in the room for people is being able to understand that actually your personality is not who you are. It's not who you were before all of this happened, before life started giving you the childhood that it gave you.

the junior high experience that you had, the relationships and in and out of, that doesn't speak to any part of your authentic design, but more, there's a bigger piece of furniture and a bigger source of data here that's important for you to know that you have access to. And I think even that is like a light bulb for people, being able to go, okay, so actually my thinking isn't quite as...

important or it's not the only source of data that I have. There's lots of other pieces of information that I have accessible to me. I just haven't been using it. I didn't even know that I could. And so I think being able to just add in more things into the room that people understand like, okay, now at least I know the landscape. I know where we need to go, what parts of this are broken, what parts of this need attending to.

As opposed to when you first walk in, there's just this sense of like, it's all overwhelming and I don't even know where to go with it or what needs fixing. I think that's the gift of therapy is that you at least get to sit with somebody who hopefully gets to sit there with you and go, this is the part that needs fixing.

That's what we're looking for. This is what we're looking for.

Right, like this is the

thing where we need to zero in on. And I think there's lots of old school therapy model is that in a sense, that's not our job to do that. Only the client can determine that. You're not the expert in, you know, there's lots of this old school thinking that I think is ready to kind of die off a bit.

And I think people are after a little more of like, no, no, let's do like life on life relational and tell me what I'm looking at. Like just be direct about that. People so appreciate when they can receive that. Cause you're like, great, got it. Okay. Now we know where to, where to go. But that requires something from the therapist where they need to be someone who is confident and competent in that.

They've done all of their own work themselves to be able to know, no, I've got an idea of where we're headed. You know, so you can follow me here in this part. But for a lot of therapists, they haven't, you know? And so they don't feel that sense of what I think a permission to be able to offer that to clients and be able to go there. So that's why what's unique, I would say about

you know, our practice here and our team and our therapist is that it's all people who feel very competent and confident to be directive in the room and that that's okay and that's good, but you're kind of risking, you gotta go there with your whole self, you know, and be able to feel okay about that. And that's not every therapist, but it's definitely all the therapists that are here.

Yeah, because you have a group there of people who operate in the way that your practice is its foundational approaches. But can you tell, know because there's two things that are coming up for me. It's the personality part and it's also the background of the

Yeah.

Yeah.

therapist and the work that they've done with themselves. Can you just give us a little bit of an idea into Brendan maybe some of the

Yeah.

things that you've had to recognize or work on in yourself that have helped you to get to the place where you are so effective in helping your clients, your patients. And tell us a little bit about your personality. Maybe how that was shaped by who you are and that work that you had to do.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah,

what's the saying that, you know, wounded healers make the best healers, that kind of thing?

I believe that.

We've,

I would say the only thing that qualifies me is that I've had a painful history, you know? And so I've been able to navigate, I've been able to navigate my own life in a way over the last 40 plus years that I've gotten to see

some of the things that have been effective, some of the things that have been ineffective. And I think being able to offer that fully to clients. know, growing up, I grew up and it was sort of the tale as old as time, know, divorced parents, blended family drama where

It was this constant, it was like this kind of chaotic adult life that was like, what do do with the kids? And like the kids kind of felt that where it was like, we're getting shuffled back and forth. So home for me was not really a safe place. It wasn't a place where I was going to walk into the door and feel

valued and feel like man the most important thing going on here right now is you and your life and what's happening at school and what's happening That wasn't the case for me. It was kind of survival survival For the adults in my life. And so the kids were kind of left to fend for themselves in a way So had I not had I think? Really really impactful and significant

really important mentors, coaches, teachers. I even did counseling when I was really little, like through my divorce. I remember that was one thing my parents kind of got right, was, here's this older woman. And I would go in there when I was eight years old and talk about dreams that I had, know, and draw pictures for her.

But I got to see the power of somebody intersecting with your story who is just a support person for you, who has no other interests involved other than just loving you.

I got to see how important that was personally for my own life. And so I think there was something very early on for me that was like, I want to be that person to some degree when I get older. I had every step of the way, there were really, really beautiful people in my life who helped me. And I had to find all of that kind of outside of the house.

And so I knew that, again, that was going to be my world to some degree when I got older. And so by the time I was, you know, in my undergrad and really starting to make some choices about what I want to do, it just continually kept coming back to this healing profession and wanting to be. And

like I just have this like insatiable curiosity about why we do the things that we do. I have so many more questions than I do answers and that to me feels like such a, like that's the compelling part of life to me, is this big why. And then you like zoom in and you see people and how we're all so different based off our histories. Like for me, I just, I remember

really really early on, I being a teenager and just being so fascinated by that process. So all of my degrees were in sociology and psychology and communication, like it was all relational and all people, just the study of people. So by the time I was ready to really enter into professional route, then I knew I was like therapist, like that was always going to kind of be the thing that I knew was going to be that

the role that really fit who I am best. And it just so happened that my personality, you know, I'm definitely more of an introvert. I'm definitely like a, my wife and I explain our dynamic is, you know, we walk into a room, we walk into a party of a hundred people and she's going to meet everybody at that party and could probably tell you their name. I am going to meet

one person at that party, but I could tell you their whole story, you know, like by the end of it. And I think that, like that's kind of the difference and that's always been my personality. And so that just fits for this. I'd say those are a couple of requirements to be an effective therapist that you need to have. And, and those things that had been developed in me. So I've just felt like it was kind of a perfect alignment kind of situation.

Well, I could see it's a perfect alignment. you explaining that puts all of the puzzle pieces together to where I can see what I'm looking at now, who I'm talking to now, and why you are so effective in what it is that you do in helping people, why a session with you is worth

30 sessions with, not everybody's different. I understand that every therapist is different and I'm not shitting on other therapists or the way that people do that. I think there's a good fit for everybody. For me, one session with you was worth.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

any other that I've ever had, all of the others combined in my life. But I think again, it's about finding the right fit and people that you relate to and someone relate to you.

.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think the timing part of it is important too. We're all at this sort of different stage of change within our life. And maybe had you met me 10 years ago, you know, and you're like, Hey, I want to get help with this. You know, maybe at that point it wouldn't have been the best fit. You know, we, but once the timing is in folks are ready to sort of

do the thing that we're gonna kind of be doing in the work that we're gonna be doing, which is a little bit more, I would say, like, surgery as opposed to coming into a doctor and getting cough drops for a cough or something like practical, here's 10 ways that I can do this. And it's not knocking that all of that is great and we need all of that. But that's not my brand of like, hey, let's really enter into this bigger story here.

at and let's move the needle. Let's do the surgery that's required, you know? But you have to be a patient who's ready for surgery, you know? And that's not everybody, you know? I think when I was, you know, in my young 20s and I wasn't ready to talk about the bigger story. I didn't even have enough self-awareness to know what was what.

Yeah.

If it's the right alignment and it's the timing, it's the fit versus the timing and the fit, then it's like the thing can happen that happened with you and I, which is like we can really do some awesome transformative stuff.

It has definitely been transformative for me and I need to come back if you're not so busy that you couldn't take me as a patient. Are there any alternate types of therapy that you have been learning about? Is there anything new coming out right now?

Come on. The door's always open.

I there are things like this EMDR therapy. There's like, you hear people talk about psychedelics, like all of these sort of like alternative therapies. Can you, I know that people who are listening could be curious and may wanna hear your thoughts about some of those approaches as well. What are your thoughts there?

Yeah.

Yeah,

I think there's a place for all of them. I really do. And I think based off how people, again, are showing up in the timing of their life, it's like, we just need different things where we each have such our own unique psyche and such our own unique spirit. And things that light you up might not light up, you know, your son. They might not light up my wife. Like that.

We each have our such our own unique grid in that that because of that, all of these different modes of therapy, I really do think there is a place for each and every one of them. I think as long as you're asking, I have a lot of interest in the psychedelic part of healing in terms of

specifically trauma and how that is going to be, I think that is where we're headed. Like I think that is something that is going to be so normalized in a hundred years that we're gonna look back at this as like, you know, think it was what, two years ago that the FDA approved psilocybin as like a treatment approach for.

legally and Oregon was the first state, is where I'm from originally. So maybe that's also why I such an interest in it. It's my, my Oregon roots, but I mean, when you and I are doing our work, a massive, massive barrier to getting to enter into it is that you don't feel safe in the room. You don't feel safe. And I'm not saying you, Sarah, I'm saying you as the client. They don't feel a sense of.

I can be my authentic, vulnerable, I can share everything. Even I can share about the parts of me that feel so painful and so confronting. Like, what if this is true? What if I am the problem? What if the reason my dad didn't actually show up in my life is because of, like these big, big questions that.

Our ego, we have all of these self-protective measures that won't let us even ask those painful questions. Because it's too, like the truth is seemingly too much of a perceived threat. So I'll just sort of like shut that off. Here's the things I will talk.

What psychedelics do, in a sense, which I think is so fascinating and we're learning more and more about it, like in the mental health communities, they lower all of that self-protection. So now, with a trained therapist, you essentially have access to all of the like really ooey gooey vulnerable parts, but in a sense, the parts that need the healing, that need the intervention.

And so it's a fast track to be able to lower our self-protection and able to ultimately build our self-identity, our worth. But I will work with a client for years where their self-protection, their ability to actually give themselves or give me access to their most wounded parts.

years, those walls will stay up. I, and I, using all the tools that I have at my disposal.

But being able to let somebody in behind those walls, maybe a really painful experience when you were a kid, maybe, again, there's so many different versions of it. But what mushrooms and psychedelics are doing is basically like, hey, we know that part of your brain that is kind of overriding and is keeping those walls up. And we have access to that part of your brain to be able to actually lower that self-protection.

so that we can get to the authentic part. So for somebody who's a clinician and somebody who's like, I'm wanting to get access to that part to heal it, to help, that is such a evocative idea that like we have found essentially a part of the pharmacy that we can employ that can like take those chemicals and get them to the right place.

That is just fascinating, just the way that you described it and you said it so perfectly. That is a very exciting prospect that we could explore.

So fascinating.

Yeah.

You walk in, like when you walked into the office and you said, like remember when you said, going back to that place of who I was before the world started telling me who I needed to be and who I couldn't be. The moment that you, Sarah, connected with that place, I'm like, oh yeah, there is an original design to me.

There is this part of me that is pure and untouched and powerful and is the most authentic self.

And the moment that you connected to that and you were able to go, holy shit, if I have access to this part of me, to my true sense of self, then I can show up so confidently in the world and I know exactly who I am. And I stop caring about what others think of me or managing people's expectations of me because there was a time when I didn't care about that stuff.

I have to go back to when I was five years old to think about that time, but there was a time when I didn't care about that stuff. And again, what these psychedelics are doing is it's giving you, it's streamlining that process of going, you're gonna get in tune with the actual authentic design of who you are. And all the constructs and stuff that's around that, it lowers it all and kind of like melts it all.

You know, but it's why people, do psychedelics and like, I, I saw God, I, you know, they have all these different ways of kind of, think, saying the same thing, which is like finally in pure alignment with, with me, with self. There was no trying. It was just being. And that feeling of like, ah, like I'm just good. I don't have to try to be something else. That's.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

That's a really exciting premise for therapy and being able to do that. So in terms of the alternate types, that's the thing that I'm like very, I have my eye very close on it and I'm excited for where that can go.

I'm so glad I asked that question because I'm just fascinated now by your answer and the way that you explained that and to learn what, how it might work and the possibilities. I know when I did that particular exercise with you, that was the transformation, but it wasn't, I went there.

Yeah.

feel like there was a lot of resistance to me going there. I just never knew to go there before. And then I was found that I was not interested in looking at that person, that early person, but I found that out in that experience because I was able to go there. But then I realized sort of the why's behind that. And I remember having this

Yeah, yeah.

this experience where you said, know, talk to the, take that person that you were and talk to this person that you are now. was like we had two different chairs

yeah.

and

You and you said Talk to talk to your future self and say and I might not be getting this right. This is how I remembered It you said what what would you want to say to this person? And I remember saying You're not at all what I thought you were going to turn out to be And

Yeah.

Yeah.

and I don't remember everything about what I said back and forth but then the younger person would say to me now why are you not interested in me? Why are you you know?

pay attention to me. Why do you not listen to what I need, you know, and the for some reason I said I don't

Yeah.

I'm not really interested in you. don't really care about these sort of childish things or I don't want to play and I don't want to spend that time with you. don't really want and it was sort of heartbreaking that I didn't want to love that person. But in that moment, I realized that that was really what I had needed all along. I'm probably not making sense, but it was very transformative because

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, it

makes perfect sense to me.

in that

moment, that was the time where I realized that

I realized how I was going to operate going forward and it was for the good and the protection of myself. So when people talk about self love and they talk and it sounds like this abstract sort of concept that you see like on social media when you're scrolling through it says self love self love doesn't really like sink in or resonate. It was in that moment that I did truly.

So good.

Yeah.

Love

that person again now I was gonna put that person first and I was gonna operate in a totally different way and that was the transformation because that Set out to affect everything else that I did from that moment forward

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Somebody

had not watched after or protected that early person and that and But now it was my time where I was gonna rectify that situation and no longer be left to be last all the time I wasn't gonna be lost all the time not cared for I was gonna be cared for Because I think we're given one person in this lifetime. We have children. have spouses We have people that we love but there's one person we have in this lifetime

That's right. Yeah.

Yeah.

To take care of and it's us. It's our own selves as Let anybody hurt your child your children Wouldn't let anyone hurt your wife You wouldn't let anybody treat the people that you love the way that you are allowing people to treat you imagine if you're your own child

That's right.

Yeah.

That's right.

That's that was like the aha moment for me and it's a real gift. So if people don't get a chance to go there on their own, I can understand why having a resource like psychedelics would be such a valuable thing to have.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I don't know if you would have gotten there had you not embodied that person. Like we can conceptually talk about it. Like imagine, you know, your younger self, but it's like, it's a whole different thing when you're like, no, no, there's an empty chair. I want you to get out of the chair that you're in and sit in that chair as the older, as, as adults era. And for you to

Mm-hmm.

If the fact that you got to embody and say to her, I don't really care about you. Like that was like, whoa, that's true. Like that has been, that has been the way I have been operating is I have done in a sense, the same thing that every other adult did to her, which is like, bye, you're on your own. I don't really care about you. Which is the same thing that happened to me. Hey, we're surviving out here on our own. Good luck, five year old.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yeah.

Right. Yeah.

It's a really hard shitty world, you

know? And to go like, wait, what? Now I'm like, I have the ability now as an adult. I don't have to do that again. I don't have to abandon that kid anymore. I can actually, I have all of this power now. I have all of this, these tools. I have all of these things that I can actually intersect into my story and go, I got you. And we don't need to.

Yeah.

go through all of the shit that we have been going through and we don't get that wake up call that we are just repeating the exact same pattern as every other adult in our life, but now we're doing it to ourselves.

And I remember in that moment that that little person said to the adult, if you don't love me and you don't care about me, and if you're not gonna take care of me, who's going to? And it was in that moment that I thought, well, that's right. Who is going to? Nobody. So.

Right. Yeah.

That was the moment where I was like, that's the saddest thing I've ever heard, but also the greatest gift because it was in that moment that I thought to myself, nobody has cared for this person and it's been my job. And now I went from, didn't care about the person. didn't, wasn't interested to now I was fully invested in that. That's where the experience of going through practices like that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's one of the reasons why that was so helpful to me. One of the reasons too, I've told people about that, but one of the reasons too, I wanted to have you on so that people could see that there are other ways if they've already been to therapy that they could possibly have some breakthroughs in their path and in their journey. You might not have found the right person yet.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And I think

that that's one of those, it's one of those situations where it comes back to, I think people just, don't know what they don't know. They don't know that, you know when you step into a car, this steering wheel, it actually like turns side to side. You can do a lot with this steering wheel.

Exactly.

Like people don't know, if I didn't know walking into a therapy office, the kind of work that was actually accessible to me, I would just look at a steering wheel and be like, it's just the circle. like, it's the thing that I've always, we don't know until we get somebody that can get into the room with us and show us how all of these different parts work. And exactly what we're looking at and how much capability there is with all of these different functions that we have.

That's the part that is a bummer for me that people have had so many experiences that continues to feel limited and feel like it's one thing. And the more that we have things like psychedelics or EMDR, it's like yet another tool that's going like, do you know what we have to?

Mm-hmm.

would we have the capability of being able to do in your growth and healing? You know, my dad said to me, were talking about talking about mushrooms, like of course, like this old hippie, you know, an Oregon dad, but he's like, you know, mushrooms, they're not a door, they're a window. Like it's a window I can see into something that I've normally would not have access or be able to see. It's not a door in the sense of like, yeah, you,

You do psychedelics and have therapy and then you walk through it and you're never the same again. You're like this whole transformed person, but no, but you can finally see it. You can finally see what you need to get after. You know, you can finally see, and then comes the work. I mean, you showing up, you didn't show up and it was like, were fixed. It was like, you showed up and you were committed to tell me where we need to go, tell me what we need to do and I'm in, you know, like I'm gonna give.

Yes.

I'm gonna give some time to this and this is important to me and this is gonna go at the top of my list of like, I wanna get this part right because I know all of these other parts out here are suffering as a result of it. So if I get this part right, then watch all the fruit from the trees go, you know, but I kinda gotta get down to the roots to do that.

Yeah.

Gotta get down to the roots. That's it. That is it. Hey, we have been talking for quite some time and I know that you have got other things to do today and I don't wanna keep you. So I wanna do one last little exercise. This is something that I have just started and it's called cut it or keep it. Concept behind cut it or keep it, me as a hairstylist, we make the decision every day with somebody's hair, right? It's like dead.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes.

could be dead, could be worth saving, could not be worth saving, could be something you want to work with, could be something you just need to get rid of. So that's the concept behind cut it or keep it. So I want to ask you, cut it or keep it, I have a few little concepts here. We talked about a couple of them, but cut it or keep it, teletherapy. Keep it.

I'd never keep it, I love it.

Keep it.

I was skeptical of it before COVID. And then once COVID hit and we were all forced to do the screen and to do virtual, I saw that you can do powerful stuff even via teletherapy. And I had to experience it myself to be a believer in it.

But even the thing that you and I are talking about right now, which is go back to the original and put in a chair and be able to have that moment that can even be facilitated through a screen. And I've seen it and I've experienced it. so, teletherapy, I'm in. I'm keep it.

you

Yeah.

Okay,

we did that was our first session and I remember that day you were kind like, you know, we I'll do this sometimes but I feel like it's good if we get together which I do think there's value in getting together. But yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. totally.

It's, it's, it's what like for sure the superior experience is always going to be in person because there's a, that energy that's in the room. can see, you know, but if it's cut it or keep it, I think I'm still going.

There is.

Perfect. We just talked about this. We went off on a whole thing, but the use of psychedelic substances is a form of therapy.

Yeah, keep

it.

And EMDR therapy, that's something we didn't talk about as much, but it stands for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. Do you know anything about that? Tell us just a little bit about that. Would you cut it or keep it?

Yeah.

I am not, I would definitely keep it. I'm giving you a lot of keep it's, I know. the, I'm not, I am not EMDR certified, but somebody on my, couple of the therapists on my team are. And there are moments for, with particular clients where that has been kind of the cutting edge thing in the last 10 years, where especially with trauma and.

It's okay.

memories being able to reprocess painful memories. And so what they found in the eye desensitization, what's happening is that it's kind of like the psychedelics and being able to how it's lowering our self-protection and enabling us to go to these painful spots. EMDR is kind of doing the same thing. And what they found is essentially, you know,

There's different ways to do it, but your eyes are tracking a certain point or they can do it with tapping on your arm. And what it's doing is it's almost replicating REM sleep. So when we go into that dreamlike state where we can kind of think about and process anything, all of my self-protection is down. What they have essentially found is a way to like fast track.

So we can kind of like get you into that state so that we can reprocess some of these painful memories. And so in the world of trauma and it's like science, it's shown that it's like really, really effective in being able to do it. But I would say it's definitely a particular type of client, particular place in therapy for it. But for when those stars align, it's...

That's great. You put a lot of clarification with that. It's cool that you've got some people in your group as well that are working with that.

Yeah, and we probably once

a month have people reaching out going specifically like, want to do EMDR and it's great. So then we get to kind of put them with a specific therapist who does that with them. So it's powerful, keep it.

No.

Cool, so keep it.

Great. All right. Next is better health and similar apps.

Yeah, it's so hard because the, we actually just talking about this as a group of therapists, with the advent of AI and everything's this faster pace and being able to have quicker accessibility. And it's hard not to be cynical about it and want to go, man, it's such a, it's a lower brand of therapy. It's a, it's something that.

you're not doing the deeper work. But the truth is that I'm gonna say keep it because there have been people that would never, they would never darken the doors of a therapy office. They would never even consider giving any attention to their mental health if it requires them coming into an office. Like that step is just like, that's not happening. But if I can jump on BetterHelp and I'm just in this texting thing with somebody who's a thousand miles away.

for whatever reason, that creates a conditions environment of safety for them that enables them to actually do some good work.

hard would it be to connect with the right person though on an

That's

the biggest feedback is that people will go through seven or eight different people and it's like, it's so big and it's so much accessible to you that it's like you've got to be committed to hanging in there a little bit to find the right person. So people will go through seven or eight therapists before they find somebody that feels like kind of an okay fit.

Right.

So, yeah, I think that's kind of the, you know, I'd hate for that to be better helps catchphrase, but that's kind of how I think about it. Better helps, something's better than nothing. But I've seen a lot of, I've heard a lot of people go, man, that's the thing that kind of saved my life. So, yeah. Yeah, I think it opened the door to people that

Something's better than nothing, I guess, though.

Wow, really?

this group of people that they just, they're not ready for therapy. But give me kind of, and I don't say this pejoratively at all, but give me kind of therapy light. Now I can kind of, can like, I can drink that for a little bit. Yes, okay. And then I think the hope would be that that would then enter you into being able to do in person or so. I think it's a, it's a step on the ladder.

Hmm.

for sure and I don't think enough it's a necessary one but if it's between cutting it and keeping it I think I'm still saying keep

Okay, going to keep it. All right, next is using therapy techniques in everyday conversations with your family and friends.

My wife would say, oh, it would be so hard to be married to a therapist because it's really hard not to want to talk about the things that you know in terms of how we do relationships and what's quote unquote healthy and not healthy. I tell people that

No.

you know, healthier and healthier we get, I think the less and less we tolerate dysfunction. I think that's true. I think like around us, we start to see dysfunction a little more. So all that to say, it's really, really hard not to, but I would say if there were a way to cut that and not have any therapy speak in it, I think it would probably be a good thing. So I'll say it.

Yeah.

Next is never being done with therapy. Is it lifelong? Should it go on forever? Does it need to? What do think?

Yeah, if you lined up a hundred therapists and asked them that same question, I think you would get a hundred different answers. It is very much comes down to how, as the therapist, how you conceptualize what it is that we're doing and the change process. For me, I do really equate therapy to being kind of like an emotional gym.

Like that is, like for whatever reason that just works for me where you want to go build your biceps, you want to get better abs, you want to get healthy and get on the treadmill, like go to the gym. You can do that. The more you go, the easier it will get and the more you will see results. And you can, at some point, once you get to a certain level, you know, you probably don't need to be going five days a week, you know,

You have built the muscle. It is there. Now, if you then never go, and if you, know, it can kind of come back. So for me, I am kind of more in the camp, I would say, of, I mean, I don't want to say never being done with therapy, but I would say normalizing that it can be a...

integrated part of your life forever. You know? Like I don't think it, and I think you get the benefit of in the same way that you go, you never leave the gym and you're like, why did I do that? That was the worst decision. You always walk away going like, I feel better. And like that was worth it. And I'm glad I went. And so I view therapy a little more in that.

Yeah, that makes sense

Exactly.

Yeah.

It's just the gym. Far be it for me to tell someone if they shouldn't be going to the gym.

If it makes you feel good and it's a good part of your rhythm in your life. I have people who use this space in lots of different capacities. Like it's some that we're doing that kind of work where it's like we're putting somebody in a chair and it's big tectonic shifts beneath the surface. I have some people that it's just very, very good for their head space to have a place to go once every month.

where they can just for one hour, they can kind of process through their month and they can use that time to just sort of have an outlet, have a place that they get reminded again, this touchstone of like, what I should be caring about, who I am, remind me again of all the furniture that's in the room accessible to me. So for people that want to do that, I love that, you know?

And I never want there to be a time when it's like, well, you don't need therapy anymore. You don't need that for your life. For them, they would go, I do need it. I do want

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I remember.

I remember our mutual friend

person who referred me to you

that would be why they would go.

Yeah.

that they would say to me, I go because it was more of that latter part of it's kind of like, it's a thing that I do. I need it for, as an ongoing thing and it supports it, you know, and it supports them. And so, yes, I've heard that as well. So that makes a lot of sense. So,

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean,

I think about it too. It's like, think it's like people are paying X amount of dollars a month to have this subscription or that to Hulu, to, whatever these different apps, like they're, they're, we're paying for these services and for these things that make us happier throughout our month. And so why would I not pay for a service, you know, that makes me happy that I get to go to once a month and do this thing. It's like, I just build that into my, so.

I think more and more that is how people are thinking about therapy and I actually love that, you know, because to me that's how I think about it and that feels helpful to me. It doesn't always need to be a space that's like what we're talking about where it's like we're going into the deep waters of this and like that's all we do here. It's like no, that's one thing.

Yeah, yeah. Last one is we're all screwed up and everyone needs therapy. Or you can, the other part of that could be like it all goes back to our childhood, we're all screwed up and everyone needs therapy.

Yeah.

We

joke about like, well, will our kids need therapy? Like as therapists, the people who know, we know the research, we know the things. And every single one of us is like, yes, you know, that the hope is not keeping our kids out of therapy. The hope is setting them up in a way where they have enough money to afford it. That's the joke, you know, among us therapists is like, let's just make sure they have enough money to afford it. Because

Mm, mm-hmm.

I am such a, this should be normalized. This shouldn't even be reserved for just having an office in East Nashville. Like, I wish we were doing this. I wish I was doing this in second grade and having a space where it was like, okay, today we're gonna talk about, you know, all of the things we feel inside and how people in our life can let us down. Today we're gonna talk, like, why is it not baked into our education system?

Yeah.

Knowing, you know, I've been using this example of all furniture in the room, like knowing what this steering wheel does in the car. Like we're complex. Knowing that there's a difference between my thoughts and my feelings and my instincts. My body is giving me different information than my mind is giving me. It'd probably be good to be competent and adequate in knowing what each of those are doing and what gets in the way of that and how we numb that and how we...

It's brushing our teeth every night. It's like everyone brushes their teeth. It's just what you do. So my hope would be that in a hundred years, it would just be something that you do. And it would be part of it. We would be a lot happier and healthier. And I think the world's challenges would be greatly ameliorated if we had way more self-aware people who took ownership for their shit.

But we don't, it's only people that can afford to go to therapy and afford to actually pay for that kind of self-awareness. that, do you know what I mean? Like that's, I kind of have a, I have a problem.

Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah, I agree. Another reason why maybe better help is good for some people too, you know?

But it is the reality.

Exactly.

Exactly. It's like, it's just another, like, let's keep opening up the gate wider and wider to the point where pretty soon it's like, it's asking the fish, how does the water feel? It's like, what water? It's just, I'm just in it. And that's normalized. But right now it's not that. So.

Yeah, right.

I

agree, it would have been great if it would have been a part of life all along.

all along. Can you imagine? Like, your son, like, can you imagine? It's like, I just have, I have all the tools in the world because I've been talking about sadness and anxiety and overwhelm and relationship problems and my inner world. I have been talking about my inner world since, for as long as I can remember. But it's not that, it's, I don't even broach that subject until I'm 38.

you

Yep.

Yeah.

and I'm doing it all at once. All of the stuff that's in my inner world. It's like, that's probably not the best thing for the best results, you know. But to do that, we have to change that we're not teaching kids, you know, deep history lessons and spending all of our time and money in those resources. Instead, we're going, how about just feelings class?

Right, right, I agree.

Yeah, there's value in that it just hasn't

It hasn't been made a priority and for there could be a whole other podcast episode as to why that is but it just hasn't been made a priority and I think a lot of there there's just been a focus on the wrong things for so many years as it's grown up. I mean are your I can tell you are your kids gonna need therapy. Well, yeah, I mean I sent my kid over to you and we do the best we can but then in the end we you know, we screw shit up. So that's why we need people like you and I'm

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah.

Yep. Yep.

Yep.

Yes.

I'm

so happy that we had this opportunity to chat. appreciate you taking the time to come on and talk to me. It's been so good to see you. I need to come back. Can you tell us, Brendan, where people can find you and where people can access your services and any offerings that you might have?

Yeah, likewise.

Yeah, I think kind of all of it is housed at sessionpsychology.com. man, I wish I was more active on social media and I wish, we have an Instagram and we have all of that, but to get a sense of who we are, how to book sessions, knowing the team, all of that's kind of at sessionpsychology.com.

SessionsPsychology.com.

You and were talking earlier, like we've got some podcast episodes, know, the aptly titled sessions being the name of the podcast, but we've got a lot of different things here and there, but for the most part, think all of that's kind of housed right there. So we have a group, it's a group practice and we're right off Gallatin here in East Nashville. We are a team of...

nine therapists. we got folks that are some really specialize in doing couples work, some really specialize in the deeper dive of self and some specialize in areas like just OCD and things that are very real and in my everyday and really having practical techniques to be able to know what to do with that.

yeah, yeah, we can.

I didn't realize you had nine people in your group.

It's great, we continue to grow.

Wow.

I love the idea of boutique, small, and like big impact with the small, small number. I've never been a, let's go wide and let's grow this thing this way. I've always been a, let's keep growing it this way. know, like whatever that means for us. So, I feel really lucky.

Yeah.

I think working with any

person's expertise and really doing the work and you know, you're talking about how you know, but we're

We're not always active on social. We're not always... Yeah, but it's like people that are out here doing the damn work. Like sometimes it's like, I mean, I was sick all last week. I didn't post anything about the podcast or anything. And what I love to have everything be consistent online and have everything look like, yeah, I would, but...

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you only have so many hours in the day and it's like you were explaining to me in the beginning, you know, with the podcast, you said it's an expensive way to spend my, it's, I don't remember how you said it. You said it was like, it's time expensive when you have your priorities and what it is that's really important to you in your life right now. Is it worth it? Is it worth really focusing in on putting a

You too.

Yeah. Yeah. Time expensive.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I always,

I sometimes too, I'm like, I don't know if people want, if they want to think about their therapist as like really active on social media. Do you know what I mean? I'm like, I want you to use all of your brain power and everything you have for doing the work in the room. Like the idea that you're putting together these, you know, kind of is a little concerning. It's like, I don't know if I want, I don't want some like,

No.

bro influencer is my therapist. I want kind of like, give me the professional who's like doing all of his stuff in the room, you know.

you

Brendan, see you on a TikTok dance again, guys.

Yeah,

yeah, you're like, he's got too much time. He's putting way too much effort into that. Like put effort into like my trauma, you

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I feel I feel better about myself knowing that, you know, I know I'm not on the thank you. I needed I needed to hear that I needed to hear that. Just like I always need to hear the things that you say whenever we're together. So Brendan, thank you again so much for coming on. I'd love if you came back again. I feel like we just scratched the surface. There's probably so many other things that we could talk about.

Yeah.

Yeah, good. You should. You should. You're putting your time and effort and love where it's actually important. So good for you.

We could probably

do 10 other podcasts, couldn't we? Yeah. Yeah.

We could we could thank

you Brandon and I will have all of this info in the show notes it's been so good to see you. Thank you so much

Yeah,

you're so welcome. I'm so glad we got to do this. Thanks for having

me.