Larry tells us about how he became a sought after stylist grooming the likes of David Gandy, Karlie Kloss, Jarid Leto, Pixie Lott and regularly working with Vogue, GQ and Vanity Fair. He explains what makes a good hair stylist and why his salons are regarded as the best in London. We also hear about his haircare range, being in business with his wife Laura, and why being a good employer is a key part of their success.

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All right, let's make this happen.

Are we ready?

Hello, and welcome to Business Without Bullshit.

I am Andy Orton.

Alongside me is my co host Pippa Sturt.

Hi, Andy.

Hey, Pippa.

And today we are joined by Larry King.

Good name, Larry.

How you doing, Larry?

Yeah, good guys.

Not that Larry King.

The other Larry King.

No, not that Larry King.

Well, he's dead now.

You don't have to worry about it.

Is he?

Yeah, he copped it a couple of years ago.

Old, uh, Larry.

Big cigar smoker.

He's gone.

There is only one Larry King.

Yeah, now there is.

Larry is a world renowned hairstylist.

He grooms the likes of David Gandy, Gerard Leto, Kylie Kloss, Gigi, and regularly works with Vogue, GQ, and Vanity Fair.

and he owns salons in London and Monaco.

Very good, Larry.

And he also has his own haircare range.

Excellent, Larry.

Welcome to the podcast.

Thanks, guys.

Thanks for having me.

Very, very good.

So, we always like to, uh, start with a simple question, um, sometimes it has complicated answers.

Uh, what's keeping you up at night at the moment, Larry?

Staff.

I would say that does.

That has its moments.

It's a big thing.

I suppose it's a staff heavy thing.

Yeah, it's a soft, hazy business, definitely.

So, I think things like that would probably keep me up at night.

But not that much, honestly.

I have a good game.

How do you hire people?

Do you test them out?

Do they, do you make them cut hair in front of you or something?

No, a lot of mine, I tend to try and, uh, train within.

So, I started off with a group of friends who all come working for me, or with me.

And, um, We were just a good team, and we also have a lot of assistants, and we train them, and I think the idea now is to just continuously just bring the assistants through, so you're building within the, within the business itself.

It gives, you know, people, um, obviously a lot of place to grow within the business.

I think if there's emergency ones, where maybe you lose someone of a higher level, then you need to bring in that higher level, but...

It's about retaining the staff I've got and then just building from in within so that's why right now, I suppose Keeping me up

slightly I mean, it's to open up a third salon because I do have sort of three youngsters that really need positions right now.

I mean, the barber and the hairstylist world seem very different.

What is the difference between those two worlds?

First of all, what makes a barber and what makes a hairstylist?

I think it's just a different, maybe a different kind of service at barber shops.

And they obviously barber shops differ as well.

So I think you need to bear that, you know, we need to bear that in mind.

And I think salons.

You know, they are geared around being completely unisex, so it's, you know, you get men, women, you get, you know, I have a very even clientele, I would say, of probably 60 percent women and 40 percent men that come in the salon, so.

Okay, and you start out on your own and then you just, you build up business and you hire people who then, they follow your style, do they, or, you know?

No, I, I initially worked in a salon.

I was very busy, built a clientele.

Then I opened, then I went to open a business.

Initially, you need a small group of hairdressers to work with you.

And colorists.

Mm hmm.

So you have someone that's people that specialize in color and cut.

Some salons have people that do both.

Uh, we have people that specialize in color and cut.

Uh, you get a small team.

We obviously looked at for a salon that was...

Large in size that maybe, you know, that holds 25 seats.

With that, you can look at getting around about 17 hairdressers in there.

18 hairdressers.

And the idea is that, you know, maybe you start with 7, but you build up very quickly because obviously your rent is higher because you've got higher, larger size premises.

So you have to build it up quite quickly, get that unit in there, that team, and just build from there.

And how many, like, how many haircuts can somebody do in a day?

Ten, I would say, is average.

Nine to ten.

If you're in a salon in London, most people work off around nine to ten.

And that's like, because you're looking around and you can go up, you can go, you know, people can go up to 13, some people even go right up to 17 doing half an hour appointments.

But then they, there's no chat, presumably.

Minimal around out of my doing half hour slots.

I would say, we do work off a lot of 45 minutes to an hour, so you get a very good service.

This might be a difference with barbers that tend to be, again, male.

15, 20 minutes.

half an hour.

Yeah.

Quick as possible, in and out.

They do things like dry cuts that makes it a lot quicker, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, there's certain things.

They also use clippers a lot more and stuff like that, so.

Okay, if someone's a really good hairstylist, could you just tell by watching them for a minute, oh, they're amazing?

Or it's, or is it about an outcome?

Is it, well, I don't care if it took two hours, if the outcome's amazing, so.

You know, in terms of, you know, making money off, off it, you know, it might be someone can only do 5 a day, but they're, they're, what they can do is incredible, but

they're quite slow at it, and then other people are really fast, I mean, does it, is sort of, speed part of it, in terms of the skill, and, do you see what I'm asking?

Um, no, I wouldn't say speed is part of it.

For me, I define a good hairdresser that's, I have a good, great, team of hairdressers that are all absolutely incredible, without a shadow of a doubt.

And do you think you can train anybody to be a hairdresser then?

Or do you need skill?

Does somebody need to have a basic level of skill before?

No, I could train anyone.

Okay, I bet you couldn't train me.

Trust me, I could train anyone.

I could train anyone, but I have an incredible team.

Um, they are renowned for being probably one of the best in London, if not the best.

And the reason why is they all give haircuts that very much last.

It's more about they last a long time, they're very easy to manage at home, they're workable hair.

They just give you, you know what I mean, these are the things that what people want.

Yeah, because if you're going to spend, and that is obviously the fundamental and obvious difference between barbers and hairdressers.

Right?

Hairstylist is the cost.

Barbers, people go every ten days, you know, they go regularly ten days, you know, get their hair freshened up.

Hair salons, you tend to see them every, sort of, four to six weeks, and it's, you know, I mean, they have a longevity to their haircut.

Because if you're going to spend quite a lot of money, you can't keep going back.

Or you could, if you're a celebrity, but if you're not.

You're not Yeah, they just look for a really nice haircut that they can style themselves very easily at home.

Yeah, okay, so a lot of it is coming up with a style that suits them, that is easily maintainable.

Yeah, it's not, you know, they're always going to make it quite personal to them.

They're going to define the haircut to be personal to that person's face shape, features.

Yeah, so on and so forth.

Give them guidance on how to make it look good when they're at home.

Show 'em tools and products to use.

How did you end up with that whole celebrity bit and the whole vogue and all those kind of things?

I started working with, uh, as you said at the beginning, David Gandhi, uh, he's a good friend of mine.

He likes the way I've done his hair.

He asked me to go on shoots with him.

People had obviously got wind of me being on shoots, whether I, you know, if I was doing a shoot for a magazine, they'd like what I'd done.

So this magazine would ask me back or.

Other people would see it on social media or other channels and be like, Oh, he cuts David's hair, David's got great hair, he's, you know, regardly

the best looking man in the world, so he's got great hair, so I'd like that guy to do my hair, and I just, you know, it snowballed from there, really.

How'd you know David?

He'd just come from me, he was, he was at a model agency, and I used to cut all of the models from the agency, so the agency identified that they liked the way I'd done it.

Models here, so they would always send their models to me.

The, the agency itself trusted me and that's where I met David.

And then from there it just kind of, I kind of met loads of friends.

I've got continuous loads of friends, you know what I mean?

Uh, I cut Frank Lamp pods on a shoot, a shoot.

And I do his hair every ten days.

Niall from One Direction, or, in fact, three of the boys from One Direction I do very regularly, but Niall is a good friend of mine.

I cut his hair regularly, there is literally, the list could go really on, we could be here all night.

Does it ever go wrong?

Does it ever, like, you, you, you're a bit hungover and you completely cock up David's hair?

No, that doesn't happen.

And you're like, fuck, man.

He's not gonna tell you if it happens, right?

What, what, what do you think about a crew cut?

What do you think?

Oh, you'd have to ask him, but I think after, nah, no, no, no.

It seems like a lot of the most famous...

Celebrity hairdressers are men.

Is that fair?

I could think of, I'd have to, I'd have to think about it, but I spent some time in my life with skincare companies and stuff and when

I would meet celebrity hairdressers, they tended to be men, but that might have been coincidence, which is why I'm raising the question.

I have to say.

You are probably right there.

I don't, I have no idea why.

Yeah.

Because there's some incredible female hairdressers out there.

I have no idea why.

There is, you know, I can list a good few women that are famous female hairdressers, but there is, yeah, there has been that kind of pattern for some reason that I don't even know.

What would you say to someone who's setting up a salon?

Would you say, good business, great, go for it?

Yeah, it's great business.

It's great.

It's, it's hard, you know, there's certain aspects of it that are difficult.

What's the most difficult?

I think nowadays, for me, there's elements of it where people expect, young people expect to qualify, or, not just in hairdressing, but this is in the world we live in.

They expect to get success and wealth and money, and they don't have to work Longevity to get to it.

I think I might have a fake idea.

Yeah, it's strange.

I'm trying to work out whether we're old and that's always the way it is, but the entitlement thing is complex.

No, I think it's definitely come on more now.

I, you know, I've worked with guys, majority of the ones, a team of mine at the highest level.

I've been in it for a long time and they build and grow and you know, to have a clientele is not easy.

You know, you have to get regulars, you build relationships.

You know, hair salons are, it's all about a relationships and Yeah.

'cause they're there to see you.

They've gotta feel comfortable to sit in a chair for an hour.

Yeah.

And if they want to come back, they've got, they've gotta light their haircut, they've gotta like you having a conversation.

You know, hairdressers become people's closest friends and some people have longer relationships than they do with their partners.

with their hairdressers, a hundred percent.

You know, they're like confidants.

They, you know, they tell everybody their biggest secrets.

Because you're built, you're within someone's personal space, and you're touching someone, so that certain barriers drop by that point, and that's when they drop, people then feel that they trust you, and they can talk to you.

But I do think that young, you know, youngsters have to build clienteles, you know, they have to, you know, There's a lot more money in hairdressing than a lot of people understand, especially in London.

If you build a clientele and you're successful and you work at it for years, you can be on huge salaries.

I'm talking six figures.

I think it's slightly inversely proportional.

Well, that's my experience of it though.

That entitlement thing.

Always the really good people are always a bit like, Am I doing this well enough?

Is this okay?

What can I do better?

Etc.

It's the people that, frankly, aren't that great who are like, Yeah, I know everything.

I'm really, really great at this.

Where's my, where's my pay rise?

Yeah, maybe, yeah, uh, uh, maybe.

I think, but salons, you know, there's other factors that come into it as well.

You know, you gotta, you gotta make sure that the customers are coming in the front door.

You know, so for me, running, you don't just open a salon and people are just gonna turn up.

You just gotta have a reputation behind it, you know.

So you gotta work at that.

Even now, you know, I spend a lot of time, personally, myself doing press, you know, influencers, people who are gonna put the word out there more and more so that You know, we're known as a number one salon, and it drives new clients.

So, cause, you can have people still move away, or, do you know what I mean?

Situations change.

So, however amazing you could be, you're still gonna lose clients, and you still need new people coming in to fill them gaps.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, you can never stop.

I notice you've got these tattoos on your hands and things, which are sort of, it's interesting cause you use your hands, so you cut your hair, so they, Yeah.

Is it connected to that?

No.

No.

C 3PO, well known for cutting hair.

It's probably a bit of a midlife, I only recently got these, it's a bit of a midlife crisis.

This is a baseball and the same sign is called, Is This Heaven?

And that's because my favourite film is Field of Dreams.

If you build it, they will come.

And that's what my whole salon was based on.

Really?

That slogan, that exact slogan you just said.

I stood outside on a January night when it was pouring the rain, looked at, looked at, What was a hardware shop and a, uh, laundrette.

And it flashed up, like, what the salon would look like.

And it was a bit of a, if you build it, they will come moment.

And me and Laura went back.

I then met Philippa, I raised the money, and I built it the way it looked.

But I've got a drawing, what Laura drew of the salon, how it would look.

Laura's your partner?

My wife, yeah, business partner.

And she drew, she's a designer.

She designs all the logos, the, you know, the websites, all of these things, everything that's...

Other than hairdressing, is my wife.

Uh, she, that's her side of the business.

And anyway, she drew a picture of what the salon would look like back in that January.

And it looks identical to what that salon looks like right now.

So it is a completely, if you build it, they will come moment.

Yeah.

And that's why that tattoo's on there.

Oh, that's really cool.

I think, I think the entitlement thing is there's always so many stories online about someone who's made it in two years.

So I think, I think that's, that's the sort of underlying problem that people are being exposed to these stories.

You know, before all of that, 30 years ago.

You didn't have a sense of how long it took.

I mean, I, I, I, you know, anyone under the 25, I do find them generally irritating, and I, I've said for ages, like, life needs to punch them in the face for a while, and then they'll just start sort of being a bit more humble.

Well, whatever, whatever their dreams may be, well, it happened to all of us, didn't it?

I mean, it would, it would have even happened to you to start with, I imagine, that, oh, this is gonna go well.

I don't know, I think when I started doing all of the celebrities and stuff, I used to do so many, so many of them for free.

Because what tends to happen is you'll, you do a celebrity, and they, you, they might need it in a hair for an event.

So you'll do their hair for them for free, but then you might get a big campaign, which you get paid a huge sum of money for.

So it's a kind of a, there's constantly a bit of a, you know, it's the same as the world, how the world goes around.

You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours type vibes.

So there's always been a bit of growing, networking, you know, putting myself out there as much as I can.

And I think, so when people say, Oh, you've done so well, you opened a salon.

You've opened two, and you've done that in seven years, it's like, well, all those relationships of all these celebrities I've had for like 15, 20 years.

And it's like, for the first 10 years, I had done all of that other stuff where I missed my daughter's birthday because I had to go and do someone's hair, do you know what I mean, and stuff like that.

So it's all of that growth that I have to do.

And there's not a lot of people that will sacrifice themselves to do that, you know.

Give up their Sundays, where they want to go and just do things to, you know.

One of my hardest things I ever had in my career, 100 percent was, I used to work with M& S.

And, um, you know, I do all of their shoots and often if you don't do a shoot and you say you can't do it, someone else will come in and they'll steal it from you.

You've got to always turn up, basically.

Yeah.

And I, every, you know, M& S, I'd shoot with M& S like five, six times a year.

Anyway, uh, my daughter, my youngest daughter, it was her third birthday, I think it was her third or fourth birthday.

She'd never had a party.

Anyway, joined in a party from, she, her birthday's in November.

From probably April to November, we heard every week, can't wait for my party, party, party, party, party, party.

Comes around to her party, M& S says, I need you to go to America.

And so she's, I, I can't say no, because everything, I could say no, but I could lose M& S, and the amount of money that gives to my family is FaceTime her on her birthday, and I was devastated sitting in a hotel room on my own, gutted.

You know, them moments devastate you, but they also...

You know that there's been so many memories I've had with my daughters that...

Or I can, I would never have if I hadn't have done them, them sacrifices.

Yeah, yeah, this falls into the, uh, uh, a slip up on the, on the show, which ended up, um, going viral.

But this sort of question about how much time you have to spend with your kids.

The, the modern attitude is, as a father, as a mother, you've got to be there all the time and whatever.

But the reality of building a business is not that.

I mean, I'm a simple example.

I never saw my dad when I grew up.

He was building this place all the time.

I saw him on holiday.

I didn't really know him other than that, but I didn't resent him or anything, you know, I understood he was out there busting his balls and we had a nice life because of it.

Yeah, I think there's definitely, this swings and roundabouts to both, but I think the modern society now does put a lot of pressure on, you know, mums and dads to...

Do it all.

Try to do it all and, you know, you want to give your kids a great life.

Any great opportunities, do you know what I mean?

And, there's two ways to do it, isn't it?

It's, do you work very hard, try really hard to give them opportunities and set them up for life?

Or do you, you know, work with them at home, helping them study?

You know, and all of that, so they are super successful, and I have, there's loads of different ways you can look at it.

Do you regret what, that you missed her birthday?

I mean, you kept the M& S contract, I assume, did you?

No, because it, the amount of other amazing memories that I've made with my kids and have, you know, it upsets me that it, but it's one of them things that drives you on and drives you forward.

I mean, you can regret something, but it's still the right thing to do.

Yeah, I certainly, no, I certainly don't regret it, and if it happened again, I'd, I'd do it again, because there's, uh, Other things that do, you know, play a part.

And like I said, I've, I could list a hundred things that I've done with my children because of where I've got to in my career.

I went to, last year I was doing a shoot all across LA and my kids came to LA and was in La Malibu.

Things like that.

They got the opportunity to come on them shoots with me.

And also I've been married for 23 years.

So me and my wife do a lot together.

Nice.

We do a lot of it together.

So you met pretty young, right?

Yeah, we met really young and having that support with me and, you know, together, we're a strong family little unit, so.

Hard to balance there if you're both in the business, because if the business is, you know, got demands, both of you are in demand.

Yeah, we're both in demand and we both do it all together.

We've done it all together.

We set it up together.

But you and Laura, I mean, because it can, I would imagine, be quite difficult to be running a home with somebody and also with them.

Yeah, but we're both quite separate bits apart.

She works in the office.

We have a core group of girls in the office that run the products and the back end of the business.

And that's where my wife will work.

Designing the products, logos, you know, the websites, the branding.

She's the brand director.

Whereby I work in the salon with all of the team in the salon, so I do the hairdressing part, which is the salon part, which is being front, front and foremost in the salon with the team and stuff like that, or on shoots, on my wife.

Backs up the other side of it.

So as much as we're in the business, there's often at least four days a week where we're not able to get up.

And I've seen you disagree and you disagree quite well.

Yeah, we do disagree quite well.

We don't, we don't ever get into a big screen, like, argument.

No, we just talk about things out, talk things out.

Yeah.

He's having a haircare range now, is that an important part of a, uh, uh, uh, uh, a hair brand, you know, your brand?

I mean, do you need to do it?

Yeah, it is part of our brand, it's something that we've always believed in and wanted, um, we've created them all ourselves, um, we really look to develop them and create them ourselves, a lot of people don't, they tend to license names.

You manufacture it in the UK?

We manufacture it in the UK, and...

Like I said, we really take our time to create these products ourselves, so it's about making sure they work, identifying that there's nice ingredients built within them, you know, the packaging's very sustainable.

All of these crucial parts that we really wanted it to be.

So gloss bottles is really nice.

Yeah, often you get people that just stick their name on a product and, you know, just because it's a quick earn, for us it's not, it's about really trying to...

put our heart and soul into these products.

Yeah, so it's in glass, the product range, anyway.

No, it's not all glass.

Glass, metals, aluminium.

Oh, you're using metals as well?

Yeah, we use aluminiums.

Like the tubes are aluminium, aren't they?

Yeah.

And the cards have, like, cardboard boxes of, you know, FSC's, so they break down the moment they hit water and stuff like that.

So it's little things that play a massive part.

And now, a quick word from our sponsor.

Business Without Bullshit is brought to you by Ori Clark.

Straight talking financial and legal advice since 1935.

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com What do you think is bullshit in your industry, and why?

There's a massive amount, in general, in the hairdressing industry of restrictive covenants and worrying about people taking your clients, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, there is.

And I think, I think, honestly, hairdressers, like I said, you build your clientele up for a long time, so I think when it comes to hairdressers, a certain amount of clients will follow that hairdresser, and I think that's fine.

I think if they're going to walk around and go, Work in a salon that's, you know, 50 yards around the corner.

That's a bit much.

Or open a salon 50 yards around the corner.

I think that's a bit much, but...

I think if they, you know, they're going to go, you know, a certain distance and take their clients, it should be allowed.

This is always the problem, isn't it?

You train up and then the talent...

You want the talent to go, you would encourage them to go and set up their own place.

No, of course I don't.

I encourage them to stay.

And that's why I look after people and try to encourage, you know, give people nice salaries and give people a future.

Me and my wife, you know, I worked in previous salons where...

I didn't really have a future.

I didn't feel like I could achieve my future there.

And I also worked with people that weren't looked after and didn't feel that they could achieve their future there.

And when I looked to set up, that was my main drive, was to, to rectify that.

Was to, you know, if people are working very hard, is to, you know, pay them what they deserve and recognize that.

And I'm, me and my wife have set out to do that all the way through, you know.

I could easily make probably a good couple of hundred thousand net more a year, but my turnover of staff would be very high.

You know, I've had a business salon, hair salon that's been open seven years, and I've lost probably seven stylists in seven years.

I can tell you now, there's no other salon in London that has that.

I'll tell you, 100%.

One stylist a year is not a lot.

They all tend to stay in.

It's because you have to give people financially and, you know, career driven.

Uh, you know, opportunities.

And that's what I set out to do, and me and my wife set out to do, and that's why our team's, you know, fantastic, and they're behind us, and we're part of the journey.

Five second rule.

So, this is where we're gonna ask you a list of questions to get to know you a bit better, and you have five seconds to answer each question.

Go for it.

What was your first job?

Uh, working in a restaurant.

What was your worst job?

Working in a restaurant.

I applied for McDonald's and got turned down.

Probably the only person on the planet that got turned down.

I got turned down by Burger King in Slough.

Yeah, one of the only people that got turned down by McDonald's, but yeah.

Favourite subject at school?

Art.

Art.

What's your special skill other than cutting hair?

Uh, numbers I think now.

Some it wasn't, but I'm quite good with numbers now.

I think you'd probably agree.

Which is lucky, Yeah, and I think you'd probably endorse that.

Yeah.

Uh, what did you want to be when you grew up?

I want to be in the film industry, which I kind of have ended up being in.

And I've met a lot of film actors, um, a lot of huge actors.

Tom Holland's a good friend of mine, so.

Okay.

Can't get much bigger than Tom Holland right now.

Yeah.

Not the historian.

Yeah.

Not the historians, um.

What did your parents want you to be when you grew up?

I think my parents just wanted me to be happy.

I think they both just wanted me to work hard.

And they instilled quite a work ethic in me.

I have to say.

And I do work hard.

What was the moment you decided to be a hairdresser and what did your dad say?

I was at college and I wasn't really doing very well.

I was doing GCSE retakes, I was really struggling.

You dyslexic?

No, no, no, no, my daughter's dyslexic.

Um, but you know, no, there's a lot of hairdressers that are dyslexic.

I think it makes people think about business in a different way.

I don't like the way schooling is, where it, you know, it makes them feel inferior.

I know so many people that are hugely successful that are dyslexic, and I think, um, honestly, I think dyslexia is, it's an amazing thing that people

use a different part of their brain to, um, You know, achieve and acquire and, um, figure things out a lot more easier than some people that are not.

So, for me, I think it's something that should be...

Like, looked on and treated in a much more positive manner.

What's your go to karaoke song?

I don't do karaoke, sorry.

I can't sing at all.

Sorry.

Is there something that you're in the car on your own, and you crank the thing up and...

Yeah, I like a bit of Dran Dran.

I'm a bit of a big 80s fan, so anything that's 80s, Yeah, I'm right in there on the 80s.

Eighties are best.

Yeah.

Eighties.

Simply red.

Dr.

Duran Green.

Yeah.

Fair enough.

Span.

Ally.

All the classics.

All the classics.

Um, office dogs, business or bullshit?

Oh, no.

Off dog.

As in dogs in, in your business, in the office.

Yeah.

We have, we have a dog in the salon.

We have an English bulldog that's part of the salon.

Wow.

What lives there?

No, no, he doesn't live there, but he one on my team, we've got this English bull dog called Tommy and Tommy's in the salon every single day.

Wow.

English bulldogs are like, that's special breeds.

He's a big, big boy.

Yeah.

He just sits in the salon just looking everyone.

No, he just looks at him miserably.

. But he's genius and everyone loves him.

Uh, I've got my three dogs, but, and I love dogs.

Um, but no, I, I definitely believe we have so many dogs that come in the salon.

We we're a complete dog friendly salon, so people bring all, we can have sometimes three or four in at once.

Um, have you ever been fired?

No.

I can't read it now.

It looked at me, it looked at me there as if to say, well, you didn't even get, yeah.

No, I've never been proud.

You didn't get the job at McDonald's to get far from it.

That's, yeah.

I have had a very volatile employment in certain places, but I, uh, that I'm not going to list.

But I, um.

I certainly have never been fired, no.

Very good.

What's your vice?

What's my vice?

Um, I suppose clothes.

I do like my clothes.

I do like my fashion.

Uh, I do have some other little things that, I have a marine fish tank that people don't know about that I like.

So I have corals and stuff like that, and fish.

And I also, I'm very much into my 80s Star Wars stuff, so I do have some vintage Star Wars toys.

So there you have it though, it was this week's episode of Business Without Bullshit.

Thank you Larry, thank you Pippa, thank you T, thank you Romeo.

Thanks everybody, it's great.

We'll be back with BWB Extra on Thursday, until then it's ciao.