Shownotes
Ken Lazar, CEO, of Ability Professional Network, and Frank Agin, Principal of AmSpirit Business Connections are our guests.
They share their insights into the world of networking, emphasizing its importance in today's job market and business world. Listeners will learn about the critical practices for successful networking, such as adding value to others, being a good listener, and building trust.
Whether you are a job seeker, entrepreneur, or professional looking to expand your network, this podcast offers valuable insights and strategies for building relationships and achieving success.
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Recorded in Studio C at 511 Studios. A production of Circle270Media Podcast Consultants.
Copyright 2024 Carol Ventresca and Brett Johnson
Transcripts
If people could do one thing, one thing, what would you have them do? And my response is volunteer. Find something you love to do, something you're impassionate about and get out there and volunteer because you're going to find yourself elbow to elbow who care about the same thing you do, but the people who see you volunteering, who have no interest in what you're doing, oh, it's a pet charity, I could care less. But they know just by virtue of the fact that you're giving your time, that you're good person.
Brett Johnson:We are Looking Forward Our Way from Studio C in the 511 Studios in the Brewery District just south of downtown Columbus, Ohio. This is Brett. Today we have networking trailblazers in the house. Listeners, you may feel the term networking has been overused. However, it's still a critical component to our work world, whether we're trying to build a business, gain an employment. Today let's welcome two very successful business entrepreneurs and networkers. And both have been on the front lines helping others in our community gain networking skills and contacts. Let's welcome, first of all, Ken Lazar. He is the CEO of the Ability professional network focusing upon sales and technical recruiting. Ken's also a co founder of the Sales Connection, founder of Tuesday Tune Up and was instrumental during the 2008 recession developing the Scioto Ridge job Networking Group, a highly successful community service for job seekers. And we also have Frank Agin. He is the principal and area director of AmSpirit Business Connections. Frank also founded the Networking Hub and the Networking RX Podcast program. And Frank is also the founder of the Charitable Roundtable, which provides nonprofit administrators the opportunity to increase their networking skills while building community connections. Thank you both for joining us today.
Ken Lazar:Hey, thanks, Brett.
Frank Agin:Yeah, this is great. I was a little confused. You said successful people. I was looking towards the door for somebody to come in.
Ken Lazar:He was talking about you.
Carol Ventresca:I think, Brett, we're going to have a great time today. Listeners, you're going to hear us yeah, you're going to hear us laughing. These two guys, I'm telling you, I've known them for many, many years in my previous life at a nonprofit. And truly when I say during the recession, they were just pivotal in helping people get back to getting jobs, building their business. And it hasn't been that many years ago. We think it has, but it's a lifetime ago. But yesterday in terms of issues of people having difficulty in employment yeah.
Ken Lazar:And when you're talking to the younger people, they don't understand what the great recession way, right. They weren't working back then, but there was a lot of people that were out of work back then.
Frank Agin:Well, I give Ken more credit than me because I'm an entrepreneur and I was just out working. But I just think you rescued a lot of people with your program. What was the name of that.
Ken Lazar:Ridge.
Frank Agin:Yeah, that was iconic.
Ken Lazar:Well, I had a lot of help.
Frank Agin:Still, everything rises and falls on leadership.
Ken Lazar:We were in like, I think six churches in Columbus in the evenings trying to get people back to work. We thank all those pastors and churches that helped us during that time.
Carol Ventresca:We were literally networking in every possible corner we could find. But we got out of it. We successfully got out of it. So today's world is a lot different, still lots of issues, still people having trouble finding jobs. So thank you both for coming to help us today to talk about networking because it is pivotal in our job searching. We're going to talk today listeners, about both job searching and building your business using networking, how it's different, what's going on. But before we dive into what exactly networking is, I first want to talk about their background. So what brought you to your current organizations and how did you decide to reach out into central Ohio and connect people in network? So, Ken, let's start with you. Tell us how you got here.
Ken Lazar:Well, longtime resident of Columbus, in and out of Columbus several times over my career, but been here for the past about 20 years and always been in the business of putting people to work. Whether I was with corporations that did that, temporary employees, it was just kind of like a passion of mine to getting people to work. So what got me to ability Professional Network is I think, Frank, you told me to quit my job and go in business for myself.
Frank Agin:Did I? Are you blaming me or giving me credit?
Ken Lazar:I don't know. I think maybe a little bit both. I left corporate, a large corporate life to go to a smaller company search firm, and I realized that that was probably not the best move. And my wife, I came home one night like we always do, and she looked at me and she says, you don't like your job, do you? And I said no. Could you tell? He says, well, I could tell. And she says, well, you've been putting the people to work all of these years. Why don't you just start your own company? So at this point in time, I'm 62 years old, and I'm saying, do you understand what that means, starting our own company and working? She says, yeah, let's do it. So we started with nothing. But what I learned, though, and when we talk about networking is that over these years, all of the people that we touched and all of the groups and everything, there is a bank account called Social Capital. And I had a pretty good bank account on social Capital. So when I put my shingle out, people, well, you need a website.
Ken Lazar:Let me do a website for you. You need a logo? Let me do a logo for you. Let me help you with your business. Carol, let me help you with your mission statement. So that's how I got here. We're celebrating our 10th year, and things are going well, and we continue to put people to work.
Carol Ventresca:Wonderful.
Ken Lazar:Good.
Carol Ventresca:Frank?
Frank Agin:Yeah. My story starts back in 1984. I came here to go to law school. Didn't even know where Ohio State was, but I got a law degree. I got an MBA from Ohio State and started my career in public accounting. I was a tax consultant. It was a great job. It was great pay. It was great everything. Glass window, office in the Chase building, way up high. The only problem is I didn't want to do taxes, which is kind of a non starter for a tax consultant, right. So, I mean, you know, it it was it was a good job, and I have some great friends and great memories and learned a lot. But I left to go into private practice, figuring that would be my next best step. And a funny thing happened when I went into private practice, and the funny thing was nothing happened. I had no idea how to get clients, and I didn't have the social capital that Ken had.
Frank Agin:I was probably 34, 35 years old. Didn't really know anybody in Columbus other than the people I worked with. And I was scared. Scared I was going to fail. Somebody said, you should go check out a tips club or a leads group. And there was an organization in town out of Pittsburgh that put together groups of entrepreneurs, sales reps, and professionals that met every week to learn about each other and exchange referrals. And I showed up at the first meeting, and it made total sense that you could lift up your whole world by just helping other people. So I really doubled down on that, became really good at it. Because here's the reality, is that I can talk about Kentil and Blue in the face.
Ken Lazar:Don't do it. All right.
Frank Agin:Well, I can. But any one of you I know all of you, I could promote you and feel great about myself. And if you self promote for five minutes, you're exhausted. And that's the essence of those organizations. They just promote the people to the left and to the right, and they're doing the same. So to make a long story short, I had an opportunity to become that organization's first franchisee in 97, and then an opportunity to buy it out in 2003. Stopped the Praxal law and rebranded it as Am Spirit Business Connections, and it changed the entire trajectory of my life. I became a student of networking. There's a lot of science that goes into why we do the things we do, why things work, why things don't work. So that's led me to write a number of books. I have a podcast that's 600 episodes deep, and I literally get to meet people all over the world. It's amazing.
Brett Johnson:Wonderful.
Carol Ventresca:Thank you.
Ken Lazar:You appear on my Facebook post more than anybody on the planet.
Frank Agin:Oh, sorry, I'm sorry.
Ken Lazar:You got like three or four Facebook posts every day.
Frank Agin:There you go.
Brett Johnson:Well, both of your BIOS beg the question, what is networking? You brought up an example, Frank, about that. It's that not necessarily networking yourself, but it's the person to your right and person to the left. So let's dig a little bit deeper about what is networking. First of all, what's your definition? How do you approach networking and what's worked for you?
Frank Agin:Well, let me tell a quick story. I'll call it a story, but there's a famous anthropologist out there, her name is Margaret Mead, and she was teaching a class, and one of the students asked what was the first sign of human civilization? And she was kind of gathering herself to answer. Everybody's thinking, okay, clay pots, weapons, is it fire? What is it? And her response was, a healed femur. In the animal world, you don't see animals that have healed femurs because a broken femur, which is the bone that connects the knee to the hip, for those who don't know, in the animal world, if an animal breaks its femur, it's a death sentence. But when we came across the remains of humans that had healed femurs, we knew somebody cared enough to stay behind. And that was really the turning point for humanity, because if you stayed behind to care for somebody, you certainly were stronger because you had one more person to help. But you also baked into the equation somebody who was going to be willing to help you. And that gene pool carried forward. The people who were selfish died out. So the question is, what is networking? It's two or more people working towards their mutual benefit, and it really comes down to just human relations. People think, well, I don't network.
Frank Agin:Everybody networks. How'd you meet your wife? How do you get a babysitter? We all network. So that's how I look at I have a very broad view of networking.
Ken Lazar:Everybody has a need. So the purpose of networking is to try and help someone who has a need. And if you continue to help everybody, anna Frankel probably agree with this, not everybody is going to immediately reciprocate. If you find out what their need is and you solve that need, some people will do it immediately. And some people, you'll never hear from them again. But as you're doing this, and if you do it long enough and you help enough people, what happens is what I talked about, you build up this social bank account, this people that know you, you've done things for people. What will happen is that somewhere along the line they'll be at a cocktail party, be a networking group or somebody, and that person who maybe didn't help you is there, and someone will say your name and the guy will say, oh, I know that guy. He helped me when I really needed it, you really ought to do business with that guy, or you really ought to reach out to that guy. And then that's what happens. That's how networking happens. It may not happen what everything you want immediately, but it's somewhere down the line, it will help you with life.
Brett Johnson:It's kind of like a 401K. You got to keep putting into it to get the return.
Ken Lazar:Yeah, but I'm taking out now, so I'm paying the taxes on it. So Frank I really ought to look at Frank and say, hey, how am I going to get out of paying taxes on this stuff that I'm taking out? But it is like so, you know, I think it it's like it's like a social it's a system. So, like, I don't want to quote Milton Friedman, but Milton Friedman said all debts are paid. I don't know if you know this saying. So if you borrow money from a bank and you have to pay it back, but if you can't pay it back, the bank is going to pay that debt to itself. They're going to absorb that debt. And if enough banks don't pay the debt, the federal government will come in and will pay the debt to the bank. And then what happens is if the federal government pays, then we are the taxpayers are paying that debt. So it is a perfect system. Networking is kind of the same way. It's a perfect system. You help people, they help you. Or somewhere down the line, they'll help you just because you help them. So that's my view of networking.
Frank Agin:No, you're spot on. You mentioned that people don't necessarily reciprocate, and some people are not in a position to reciprocate. And I'm totally okay with that. I tell people I'm good with putting karma out in the world because you don't know how that's going to spin its way back around to you. And things happen to me every day and wonderful things, and I don't know what drove them. And I just have to believe that somewhere along the way, it's something I did.
Carol Ventresca:Before we started the podcast, we were talking a little bit about Brett and I creating this podcast. And I was saying, you know, Brett and I have a large enough network and enough people that we have met and talked to over time, that we've been real lucky with the podcast and that people are willing to come and talk to us just like the two of you came in to talk to us today. So I guess we need to give a shout out to all of our networks, thank them for all that they've given us. So I'm going to step back because I want to continue this conversation about what networking is. When I was the director at the agency working with older adults and I would talk about networking, they'd look at me and go like, what is she talking about? Is that just like going to a cocktail party and talking to my person standing next to me. They really didn't have a concept of what networking was and what it could do for them. And it's not different if they're starting a business or just looking for a job. But how do you get across to individuals, how it's going to make a difference for them and how to build up your network so that you can move forward?
Frank Agin:Well, I tell people all the time, in the long run, we're all self employed. We are, right. You're in the career world, you got to advocate for yourself. There is no 40 years in a gold watch anymore. So we're all self employed. Some people just choose to sell their our 2000 hours at a time to one person. It's all business, right. Whether you work for the state of Ohio or a not for profit or Bath and Body Works, you're in business for yourself, advocating for yourself. So the whole concept of networking really kind of applies evenly to that. How does that interplay? We all need networking. We all do. And and people in in the business world, people look at networking, they think about it in terms of referrals in sales, but it's so much broader than that. It's being able to reach our to somebody for information, hey, we're looking for this person to be on our podcast to talk about this our.
Carol Ventresca:It even could be I need to buy such and such. Do you know a vendor that I could get a good deal and a fair deal.
Frank Agin:Right, so.
Carol Ventresca:It'S giving you the ability to move forward.
Frank Agin:Yeah.
Ken Lazar:So the people that are in sales know this and it's kind of intuitive to them. But when you're in business and you want to get business, you do certain things in the job search, you basically do the same thing. So I'm going to be looking into my business. I'm going to find the people that can hire me. And so the people that can hire me are usually the Vice President of sales who they need some people, so I reach out to them. So in my network, I am networking with all of the vice president of sales in the region that I want to do business in and in the industries that I want to do business with. So I develop a database of these people and I reach out to them. Job seekers have got to do the same thing. They got to figure out what they want to do, number one, and then they got to figure out who can hire them by title. And once they have that, they can go on like networking groups, social like LinkedIn, and they can start finding these people that can hire them and reach out to them. That's the networking that they can do to find the next job. It's the same thing that I do when I want to find business.
Carol Ventresca:One of the things, I think that for folks who don't consider themselves to be networkers, don't feel that they understand the process. Do you think they get hung up on place or situation as opposed to the concept of talking to people? So they think networking comes because they go to a job circle, they go to a job fair, they go and meet people for coffee somewhere, or they go to a cocktail party. So they're thinking of, I've seen a lot of times where somebody will walk into a room, a sea of people are out there, and they just like, freeze and walk back out. Agin. They don't understand that notion of just find the first person who's willing to say hello, as opposed to getting confused because there are so many people, they.
Ken Lazar:Have the wrong mindset because that's scary. It is. If you're walking into a room, you see all these people over there and you don't know you're finding the person in the corner that has the same problem with you. But the mindset that I tell people, and it changes things in immediately. So when you go to a networking meeting, what you want to do is not say, how many people can help me? You're going to say, I'm going to walk out of this meeting and I'm going to find three people that I can help. That changes your mindset entirely. You feel good about yourself. You want to go in, you feel good. I'm going to find some people, I'm going to talk to them, I'm going to help them.
Brett Johnson:You feel like you're supposed to be there, then?
Ken Lazar:Well, yeah, because you should be, right.
Frank Agin:Because you're there to help.
Ken Lazar:You're there to help. Right. So that changes the dynamic entirely when you're in that mindset. You teach that, don't you, Frank?
Frank Agin:I call it the cloak of invincibility.
Ken Lazar:Get out. You do not.
Frank Agin:I do. No, but seriously, I tell people because here's the thing, is that human development, as early humans, we were in tribes of about 150, and those were the only people you ever saw in your whole life. And if you saw a stranger, it wasn't good. So we have this natural apprehension towards people we don't know. So we walk into a room, there's people we don't know this welling up inside. It's totally natural. I missed their network. I feel it. I'm driving to a networking event. My body is screaming at me, just go sit in your chair at the office. You don't need this. So I love Ken's point. When I walk in, I put on my cloak of invincibility. I am there to help people. Nobody ever rejects Superman.
Frank Agin:Nobody ever rejects Batman. So when you're that hero with this cloak of invincibility, you're right. It's a game changer. It just changes.
Carol Ventresca:I want to see the big S.
Frank Agin:Yeah.
Carol Ventresca:Try to get big N. There you go.
Ken Lazar:I'll tell you, though, COVID really screwed up a lot of people. It screwed up me.
Frank Agin:Yeah.
Ken Lazar:So for two and a half years, I was in my bedroom with my dog because I could work from home. So I decided, well, it's time to get back out. So I'm going to a networking event. I'm walking in, I'm having a panic attack. I'm going, oh my gosh, how many times have we done this? And I'm walking in and I lost my mojo. So you have to get it what right.
Brett Johnson:Well, I was going to say, but the opposite. I also felt, though, too, is that people were yearning so much to have a networking event or to go face to face that it actually kind of made it a little bit easier to approach people because they wanted to talk without the screen in front of their face. So it's double edged sword.
Ken Lazar:Well, that helped.
Brett Johnson:You weren't used to the practice of doing it, but people were there because they wanted to do it.
Frank Agin:They were almost giddy. They were giddy, yeah.
Brett Johnson:Unbelievable how many people are saying, this is so great. I get to see people, and finally I get to meet you off a screen. This is great. I think that feeling still exists today.
Ken Lazar:We need to do more of that again. We need to get back into the big networking events and press the flesh and talk to people face to face instead of screen to screen.
Brett Johnson:Yes, I think.
Carol Ventresca:Yeah. I had an employer talk to me last week about a job fair that was going to be all electronic, all virtual. And I just looked at her and I said, been there, done that. Especially for older adults, they need to talk to people face to face. That's what they are used to. And making decisions on somebody's ability just because they can get onto Zoom does not necessarily get you the best candidate.
Frank Agin:There is a lot of truth to that. I read a study that our brains just operate differently in person and over the screen.
Carol Ventresca:Oh, absolutely.
Frank Agin:Just different the way the two lobes are kind of communicating with one another. But there is a lot to be said for Zoom, for sure.
Carol Ventresca:It opened up a lot of opportunities that we wouldn't have had had we not had the technology.
Frank Agin:Well, what it did is it saved us from I'll give you an example or an anecdote. Somebody will in the past would say, hey, love to have a cup of coffee, get in the car, go have a 30 minutes cup of coffee, come back, it's 90 minutes. Now with Zoom, it's like, okay, it's 1520 minutes, maybe 30 tops. And then you can say, you know what? This is worthwhile. Let's get together for a cup of coffee. Or you know what? I don't want to say it wasn't worthwhile, but you know what? I'm not your person. Let me introduce you to Ken or somebody else and save all of that time. So over the course of an afternoon or a morning or a day, you can do five or six of those sorts of things and still be at your desk and get things done.
Carol Ventresca:I have the other end of that same conversation. I have a lot of people who will say, oh, let's do a zoom, or Meet me for a cup of coffee, or blah, blah, blah. And I always say, can we just have a phone conversation? Because I figure it'll be one and done. Ten minutes, 15 minutes, I'm done with this person. I don't have any more information to give to them and can move them along to someone else. But everybody's gotten into the mindset of doing a zoom, and if I say phone call, I can't tell you how many times I still get a zoom link. Anyway, that was my commentary on phone calls.
Ken Lazar:Yeah. I mean, I get a lot of let's have a cup of coffee. And I'm thinking, well, have you earned enough to have a cup of coffee? Can I give you 90 minutes of my time? I have no idea what you're going to what we're going to talk about.
Brett Johnson:That's true.
Ken Lazar:That's how zoom helps.
Carol Ventresca:Yes, it does. And that answers something that came up during the recession. I had a consultant who was very open to talking to people to help them in their job search until finally it got to where she was doing all the work. They were networking, and I'm using my little air quotes here, but they weren't doing the work of finding their job. They were depending on her to make it happen. And so she had to back off because she couldn't get her job done. She was still consulting and she couldn't get the consulting done. So that could be hard.
Brett Johnson:Yeah. For as large as it is, columbus is really still a small town. We all tend to know each other, especially if you're Italian in the room and she says she's three people, you.
Ken Lazar:Make Carol carol's Italian.
Carol Ventresca:I didn't know she was two people.
Brett Johnson:Way from knowing everyone. So I guess it does beg the question, does that impact the success in networking in regards to those degrees of separation? What do you think, Frank?
Frank Agin:Being a small town?
Brett Johnson:Yeah. In regards to is a detriment being a small town or a large town? Does it help because it's a bigger database of people that you can be connected to, or is it just overwhelming going, I could never reach that person because they're three degrees away from when you talked in the LinkedIn world, I.
Frank Agin:Guess you could say. Yeah, I interviewed somebody on my podcast, and he hit me with this, and he's like, you know, there's 8 billion people on the planet, and we're all in the same network. We all are. It's just a question of, well, my network. Everyone thinks they have their own network. No, we're all kind of connected. It's interesting where this whole degrees of separation came from. There was a study that was done in the 60s, stanley Milgram, who worked at Yale, and what he did was he took 150 packets of information and sent them. He put in 150 envelopes the name of a financial advisor who was in Boston and said, if you know this person, send it back to him. If you don't, send it to the person you think might know them. And he distributed them at random in Omaha, Nebraska. And so they came back to that financial advisor on average in six steps. That's where you get six degrees of separation. They further looked at this and you would think that if it went to 150 people at random, it would come back from 150 people, random people, and it really came back to this financial advisor from three or four. Wow.
Frank Agin:And so it really comes down to who, you know, do you know connected people or not know connected people? And so that's where I tell people, take a hard look at your network and who are the connectors in your network? I mean, you guys in putting this show together, you probably have some go to's, right? Betty Collins, I'm guessing, is probably a go to. And there's some other people I don't even know. That okay, we need somebody who are we going to go to? And so you can be overwhelmed by things, but what I always tell people is try and find those connectors in your world. We talked about before we hit record, chris Borha, he is very well connected. It's a guy up in Detroit, Terry Bean, who used to live here in Columbus. I mean, he is like the center of the universe up there. Every town has these people, and those are the people that you need to really kind of connect to and stop trying to figure out, okay, what is the path? There probably is a really quick path.
Carol Ventresca:That brings up an interesting question on when you're going to networking events, to choose a networking event, but to know who's going to be there, if you can. When we were dealing with folks during the recession, all of my clients were going to all these networking events, and then they come back to me and say, well, I couldn't get a job there. And I go, well, you weren't meeting with employers. You were meeting with other unemployed people who are you're all in that same boat, but give each other ideas, tips, maybe possible connections to employers. They're not needing that connection, but you might. So there were all these things that they could do, but in their mind, networking was a straight shot to get a job. And that's not really what it is.
Ken Lazar:No. So there's two types of food. There's good food and there's junk food. And networking sometimes is the same way, is that you take a little of both, but you want. To work in the networking world of really true food, which would be people that are in your industry associations, professional associations. I cannot tell you how many people I have talked to that says, I want a job in human resources. And I said, well, that's great. Do you belong to Herocco? Well, no, I don't.
Carol Ventresca:What's Heroco?
Ken Lazar:Are you serious about your organ? Are you serious about your trade? So those are the positive things that you ought to do, is to network in professional organizations, because those people are like you. They know what you know, but they can help you in other instances. So the other thing I want frank brought this up. He always brings up good stuff. I'm going to say here. The Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell. That deal about strong ties and weak ties.
Frank Agin:Yeah.
Ken Lazar:So there was Frank, a vetter, he said that informal contacts are where you find our job. So you go to the people that you know first and you network with those people who will send you the people that they know and then send you to the people that they know. So until you got to the third is it the third level, Frank? I think the third level, yes.
Frank Agin:Essentially, what they did in the study, the people responded in the study that the people that they knew really well were not a good source at all.
Ken Lazar:Right.
Frank Agin:Yeah.
Ken Lazar:It's till you got to the people their friends. Friends. Is that where they found their jobs?
Frank Agin:Yeah. For me, I love my family, but I'm not going to network through my wife because we know the same people. Yeah, but when I start meeting with people that she knows that I don't know, that's when. There's tons of opportunity.
Carol Ventresca:Now, being Italian in a town the size of Columbus with a huge Italian population.
Frank Agin:Yeah, you're all related.
Carol Ventresca:We're all related. But the relationship is always different than just husband, wife, children, grandchildren. But that really is the key, is the first person you know is not who you're going to get the information from, it's who they know. When I would do workshops for older clients, we would do a networking workshop, and we had a game. So I'd come in with my McDonald's coffee gift cards so that they could take somebody to coffee. And I'd say, in the conversation of when we're talking about networking, I'm going to mention people, places to you that I'm connected to. So you figure out how you're connected to me through them. I always got rid of my gift certificates. That's a great exercise. Figure that out. We did it with our students when I was at Ohio State and one young man decided he knew me because of his aunt. Went to my high school.
Frank Agin:Really?
Carol Ventresca:I said, well, but I didn't know your aunt. So there's a missing link there. And he goes, well, did you know so and so? And I said, yes, and I said, he said, well, okay, there's the link. I go, but tell me why it's a link. He couldn't answer that. So I made him call this person on the phone and they kept talking and luckily my friend was listening and trying to figure out what was going on. And I finally said, ask your contact who his wife is. His wife was my cousin.
Ken Lazar:Oh my God.
Carol Ventresca:So it took about 3 hours to get to that point. It's an exercise. Networking is not off the top of your head. So this leads me to my next question. There are skills to be a good networker.
Ken Lazar:Yeah.
Carol Ventresca:What are those skills and how do they learn? Ken, go for it.
Ken Lazar:Your mother taught you everything you need to know about connecting before you were ten years old.
Carol Ventresca:Oh, I love that.
Ken Lazar:Number one, make friends. Number two, play nice. Number three, take a bath. Number four, do your homework.
Carol Ventresca:I have never definitely.
Brett Johnson:Number four, out of COVID Take a bath. Exactly.
Carol Ventresca:That's a whole new list.
Ken Lazar:I'm going to give that one to you.
Carol Ventresca:Yes. I love it. I love that. That's wonderful. Do you have any follow up on that?
Ken Lazar:Yeah, I guess that number one. There's two. Number one is smile. So when I walk into a store now anymore, instead of frowning, I'm smiling. So people smile back at you. He's smiling, which is good. And the other one is that I've used the word and I was given this by Tom Wentz, who's a mentor of mine. Use the word terrific. Just use the word to say how you doing. Terrific. Really? Not say mom. Okay. If you are enthusiastic. So that's the other thing.
Ken Lazar:Smile. Use the word terrific. Enthusiastic people will be drawn to you. They'll just come and do you teach that Frank, in your groups?
Frank Agin:I don't necessarily teach that, but it's certainly you have to make a decision as to how you're going to show up in the world. You just have to whether you're saying terrific. And what I will say to people is just hypothetically, when you walk into a room and you have a choice between two people, are you going to the person who's smiling or the person who's a mope?
Ken Lazar:Yeah.
Frank Agin:Now there are people out there a mopey and they get some attention. But nobody, people are just nice, short term, long term. They want the person who's got that smile on their face or who's maybe not saying terrific, but that's on their face. Right. That's how they're carrying themselves in their shoulders.
Carol Ventresca:And whatnot one of the things that I would just go at my clients and say, you have to be a good listener. You cannot just go into a network, any situation with another person, and just keep talking. Because when you take a Brett, they're going to walk away, they're not going to respond. It's just too much. You have to be a good listener. And as you said, how can you help other people? You can't help them unless you know what they need.
Frank Agin:Yeah, definitely. Listen, people, when I go out and work with groups, they're always like, oh, networking events. I hate it. I never know what to say. Good, because you shouldn't. It's about you getting them talking and they're going to feel like you are the most interesting person in the world because you've made them feel good and had an opportunity to learn about them. Eventually they'll want to find out about you.
Brett Johnson:If you think about that, if you go at it with that approach and you're listening and you're listening and you're listening, that person you're talking to may not even realize that you're unemployed, looking for a job. You've not even set the stage right. They're going to come back and ask about you after they've talked about themselves for 15 minutes and go, it's going to surprise them that you are unemployed or you're looking for a job. And truly, they're networking. I think it's going to catch them off guard.
Frank Agin:Yeah, that it's just that, wow, you.
Brett Johnson:Listen to me and you're here really in a different need than I am.
Frank Agin:Right.
Ken Lazar:Who have mastered that skill are politicians. So I cannot tell you how many times that somebody says, I met Jimmy Carter or I met this person and they made me feel like I was the only person in the room. They are taught that because that's the way that you should approach people and get votes because there's a trust that's built up. We didn't talk about trust yet, though, Frank. Right. There's got to be some trust there that you're building up in the networking, that you're going to do what you said and I'm going to do what I said and I'm going to follow up and that type of thing. There's a trust built up there, isn't there?
Frank Agin:No, absolutely. I mean, I think trust is trust is the most important thing that we do, determining whether we trust somebody. And again, that harkens back to time long ago, but we are constantly cycling through our head very subconsciously, okay, can I trust this person?
Brett Johnson:Yeah, right.
Frank Agin:Every day, just silly things. You get on a zoom call and you think it's supposed to be about just getting acquainted and they're going to pitch you. That just violates trust. I was supposed to have a zoom call with person A. Person B shows up, well, that's a problem. But just all sorts of things like that. And so it certainly gets down to when somebody when you walk into a conversation and you dominate it, people get the sense very subconsciously that, okay, this person doesn't really care about me. But if you stop and you listen, you are conveying to them, okay, this person cares.
Brett Johnson:Well, we kind of talk about this best practices in networking. I think we've hit on it on one of ten listing but, Frank, of that listing list a top five you feel are critical.
Frank Agin:Yes.
Brett Johnson:Listing is right there in that top five.
Frank Agin:Yeah. I always tell people, find ways to add value to others. I think that's probably the you know, that's probably the number one thing. And and covers covers lots of lots of things. But as humans, again, we're, you know, we're cycling through our mind who we can trust, who is out for us, or who's out for themselves. And if you're adding value to other people, listening is a way of adding value. Encouraging people, making introductions is another way of adding value. There's lots of things we can do to add value to other people, but that's certainly one of them. The other thing I like to talk about is just have the mindset that every contact has opportunity because you just don't know who that person is connected to. I talk about this in my first book, foundational networking. I was an extra in the movie The Shawshank Redemption.
Ken Lazar:I love this story. I was hoping you were going to tell it.
Frank Agin:Well, I mean, I was parking downtown. It was a tax consultant parking downtown. It was a garage close to the office. It was cheap. The only catch is you had to leave your keys. So you leave your keys every day, which is a little unnerving if you've got a car, because you don't know what they're doing with it all day. But I just made it a point, probably very subconsciously to get to know these parking lot attendants who I'm handing my keys off to. And the woman who was in charge, her name is Twila. And I would just talk to her every day. Nothing. Not a cup of coffee, conversation. Just, hey, how are you doing? How's your daughter doing? Is that your granddaughter? Did you go to the zoo?
Frank Agin:Oh, that's really nice. She stopped me one day and said, hey, how would you like to be an extra in a movie? I'd love to. Now she said, we're looking for attorney types. They are looking for attorney types for shooting up in upper Sandusky. And the opening scene in The Shawshank Redemption is a courtroom. I got cast as a prisoner of all ironies, but I literally was it. Maybe not, but here's the thing. I got to spend a day on the set with Morgan Freeman. Talk about a genuine human being. Hey, I'm Morgan. Yeah, I know.
Brett Johnson:You're Morgan.
Frank Agin:Yeah, I'm frank. That's a better question.
Ken Lazar:Can I do your taxes?
Frank Agin:Yeah, right. But I realized at that moment, it's like there were hundreds of attorney types coming and going, and I was probably one of the only people that stopped and gave her that sort of respect. Now, I'm not a Hollywood star. I didn't get discovered or anything like that, but it was an opportunity, and.
Brett Johnson:You got a story out of it.
Frank Agin:Well, I certainly have a story out of it.
Brett Johnson:But there's, if nothing else yeah, great story.
Frank Agin:Well, the the other story I tell along these lines, there's a gentleman who's from Columbus. His name is Lewis Howes, and Lewis is very well known. Now, he's got his third book out. He tells the story in the beginning of the book of how we met. And he came up to me, I gave a speech. He came up to me after the speech, and we just started talking and I could tell he was down on his luck. He was shoving food in his pocket. And I just took him to lunch. And we just would go to lunch occasionally and touch base. And he said, I'm thinking about writing a book. So he and I co wrote a book together. Along the way, people are like, why are you wasting time with this loser? The guy's unemployed. What is he doing? Why that's not a good use of time.
Frank Agin:It's like, I don't know, somebody needs help and that's what we're supposed to do. So certainly every contact that has opportunity, you don't know. And I think the third thing, I'll cap it at three, there's no shame in asking if you're out there, being a genuine person in your network, you need to be willing to ask of your network. There's an author out of the University of he's a professor at University of Michigan. His name is Dr. Wayne Baker, and he wrote a book called All You Have to Do Is Ask. And he has done a lot of work on the whole notion of asking. And that's what holds people back, is they're not willing to ask. But when you get to read the book, it's interesting because there was a study he talks about in there, and there are really two types of asks. One is kind of a dependent ask, give me a fish. Would you give me a fish? And the other is more of an empowered sort of an ask it's, Would you teach me to fish? And what the study shows is that people are energized by coming to the aid of somebody who's got that empowered ask. Of course I'll teach you to fish. I would love to take an afternoon and teach you how to fish, because then you'll never have to ask me for another fish.
Frank Agin:Whereas if somebody's coming to us and saying, hey, will you give me a fish or will you give me a job or will you do these things for me, it just becomes exhausting. So those three things that leads me.
Carol Ventresca:Right to my next question and another good story about being afraid to ask. I heard this when I was directing the agency and a gentleman had lost his job. He was at a very high level at a large corporation here in town, and he literally hid in his house for a year because he was too embarrassed to let people know he had lost his job. And was afraid to ask for help. One of his neighbors finally figured out what was going on, because every once in a while, they'd see him sneak out and get his mail and sneak back into the house, and they're wondering, like, why isn't he at work? This was long before we were zooming from home and went over and talked to him. And within I think it was a month, this man had a job, and here he had sat back and was afraid to ask for help. So my next question is my older job seekers seem to have the most trouble. Young folks tend to kind of like to talk, especially about themselves, but they like to talk to people. Older adults were not used to not having work, not having a job, and didn't know how to ask what are the tips that you would give them to build up their confidence to be good networkers?
Ken Lazar:Well, boomers. I'm assuming we're talking about boomers. They were taught that you stayed with one company for 40 years, and that's what you were supposed to do. And my whole family worked in Detroit, in the automotive industry. They came over from Europe, and they all were there. They were Ford, Chrysler, the Soto, all those. And they worked on jobs that they hated for years just because it was the thing to do, is that they would retire from the companies. And if you lost your job, it was almost like a mark against you. I remember my dad, I was 35 years old, and my dad says to me, you better find a company that you're going to stay with for the rest of your life, because you know you're getting old. And I'm going, Are you kidding me? So there's an issue. There's a stigma there that like a guy that was in the house for a year. There's a stigma there that you are tainted. So the deal was back then is that Joe lost his job. Don't tell anybody, right?
Ken Lazar:But now it's, Joe lost his job, tell everybody. It's an entirely different dynamic. So that's one of the stigmas that's there. There's a lot of very good talent our there, but because you're playing maybe the third quarter our the fourth quarter of your life, it isn't as worth as much as if you were young, and that's absolutely not true. There are companies out there that are dying for good talent. You got to believe that you have good talent. There are age discriminations on both sides of the spectrum. There are age discrimination from the young kids coming our that they don't know anything, and they're not going to stay at your company very long, so you better not hire them because they're only going to stay 18 months, and they're going to be gone. But there's the other stigma that if the average tenure of a new employee is, like three years right now, and you have somebody that has ten year runway in your career, who the heck are you going to hire? You're going to hire the person that's going to be with you for the next ten years because they know what the deal is. So those are the stigmas that I see. Carol, I tried to get beyond that. Networking is very difficult for I remember actually, you asked me to speak at one of the sessions at the Employment for Seniors job fair. And I remember this guy, he was in the corner and my talk way about networking, and I had this presentation here, and I'm going I'm looking at him and he's got his arms crossed. Yeah, he's staring me down, this guy.
Ken Lazar:And he's a professional. He's like, there is no way I'm doing any of that stuff. So finally he comes up to me afterwards and he said, do you really believe all that? And I said, I absolutely, truly believe all that. I wouldn't be here if I didn't believe all that. Come to my networking group. So he came to sayota Ridge at that time, and he was networking everything, and he ended up with the job as, like, a director of logistics for Abbott Foods. And he says, anytime you want somebody to work at Abbott Foods, you call me and I'll find a job for them at Abbott Foods. And that's what it took. It's the networking part of the deal that brings people out of their shelves, understand it's, okay, I'm going to find a job this way. And they do.
Brett Johnson:Well, after the past few years of job recruiting and job searching, techniques have gone through some major changes. Frank, is technology the only change to networking or other changes become necessary as we've walked out of this run? Out of this?
Frank Agin:I get the question. Well, I've gotten the question for years, what's LinkedIn going to do to networking? What's Zoom going to do to networking? And my response is, are you going to edit this out if you need to? But where do babies come from? Now? They still come from the same damn place. We still have relationships the same way. And so all Zoom does is really facilitate our ability to have communicate. Right. I can have a ten minute call with somebody in Dublin, Ohio, over Zoom, and it's only going to take us each ten minutes.
Carol Ventresca:Or you could have a ten minute call with somebody in Dublin, Ireland. It's only going to take you ten minutes.
Frank Agin:Right.
Carol Ventresca:It's a tool.
Frank Agin:But the relationships are still built the same way. We still have to come to getting to know people like people and trust people. So I don't know. Carol. You said it's a tool. Betsy Ross met George Washington at church, right?
Ken Lazar:Yeah.
Frank Agin:You know, so it's we networked back then. We've networked for eons. This just allows us to network further and faster. That's all technology has done.
Carol Ventresca:Good point.
Brett Johnson:Yeah, good point.
Ken Lazar:Carol, I want to amplify one thing that I said about do older adults have specific challenges? And there are two things that I'm facing as an older adult. Number one is energy. So when you're going to networking events, make sure that you have the energy when you walk in and when you walk out, that you keep that energy level up so that you are presenting the right persona. The other is choose wisely. So if you are going to take a look at different networking events, choose the one that you think makes most sense to you that will make the most value. So energy and choosing the right networking events right now for older adults I think is important. Otherwise you get tired. I mean, you just lose your it takes energy. When I go to a client meeting now and the client meeting lasts for 2 hours, that's about it for the rest of the day. I mean, there's a lot you're on stage, you're trying to make a good impression. You're doing the same way with networking that afterwards you've used all of your energy up at that networking event.
Carol Ventresca:Well, it's so easy to be frustrated in a networking event because things don't go as smoothly as we hope they will, right? Even if we think we're in our best game, not everybody is going to be in their best game. So frustration is also energy draining.
Ken Lazar:Oh, absolutely. I couldn't agree more.
Frank Agin:Probably more so. Probably more so.
Brett Johnson:Yeah, exactly.
Carol Ventresca:So that takes me then to my next question. I think one of the hardest things I've wrestled with when I was talking to clients and students is where's the best place to go to network? And it really does have to be a place that is going to be comfortable for you, that you're going to get the most out of the time you're putting into it. Looking may make things faster, but networking takes time. You want to use your time wisely. What organizations would you consider? And for listeners, one of the things that we do with our podcast is create resource sheets. So this is all going to go onto our resource sheets, so listeners will be able to tap into it later. But just tell us your own groups as well as other groups that you feel are really worth people's time and looking at networking. And we're talking central Ohio, but if you know of other organizations outside of central Ohio or national organizations, let's get those too.
Ken Lazar:Well, the one that we run right now that is free to anyone who wants to come is called Tuesday Tune Up. And it's for job seekers that are in transition. And we always have good guest speakers that come on. And Frank's been a guest speaker at a lot of times at all of our networking events. And we always talk about job search, leadership, all kinds of things within the job search. So just go to my website and go to networking and I will send you the link. Zoom, I found out, doesn't like you to put your link out there on social media. They'll find it if they'll tell you, don't do this. And I couldn't ever figure out why until someone came on my Zoom call that I did not want and was very disruptive that I had to take off. So please come. We started it up again. That's one of the things that I have. We talked about professional groups and associations within your industry. If you're in human resources, it would be Heroco. If you're in logistics, it would be the Columbus Society CSCMP.
Ken Lazar:Columbus Society for I can't remember. CSCMP for logistics people.
Carol Ventresca:We'll get that into our resources. We'll figure it out.
Ken Lazar:Okay. Meet up the meetup app. I don't know if you look at the Meetup app, but you can put in your interests in the Meetup app and find out where the different Meetup groups are in Columbus. Now, I found out that when I go to some of these Meetup groups or virtually what have you, or go to an event, I try to get the ones that I don't know anything about. And you go there and you find all kinds of neat people there. Makes you energized to find out people that are not like you, that are different than you. So meet up is huge.
Brett Johnson:So that's how you got into model airplanes, then?
Ken Lazar:No pens. I'm joking. Don't I make you a pen? Frank, do you have a Ken's pen? No, I don't have Carol one here. Carol has a ken's pen.
Frank Agin:Okay.
Ken Lazar:There is a lot of stuff, conventions that are in Columbus. So if you're looking at convention bureau, you can find out what conventions are coming. Plus trade shows. Trade shows is a big way to find companies that you didn't even know existed to go to trade shows, especially if they're in your field. And the other thing is, the last one I have here, it's called Serendipity. And that's when you're standing in line at the grocery store and you strike up a conversation with someone in front of you and find our they're the wife of the president of Cardinal Foods or Cardinal Health or whatever. The other one is that I never forget this story way we always have to what her elevator pitch is. Everybody has to memorize her elevator pitch. So I never forget this one girl. She was over at Columbus State. No, it wasn't Columbus State. What's the one that went out of I think it was Columbus State. She got on an elevator, and this person was next to her and introduced himself and says, what do you do? And she gave her elevator pitch in an elevator and got a job as an administrative assistant because she was talking to one of the directors at the school. So serendipity, those things that happen are networking.
Brett Johnson:Yeah. We had one of the sessions at the agency was a panel discussion of HR people and gentlemen. In the back I remember this vividly was talking about and he was asking a question about his resume, about where to place things, that sort of thing. And he comes upon starts talking about it's like, well I've got it lower on my resume that I'm fluent in Spanish. And one of the panelists up there said we need to talk afterwards because we need to have that bilingual for in HR our whatever department it was. It was Honda.
Ken Lazar:Oh wow.
Brett Johnson:Needed that.
Ken Lazar:Yeah.
Brett Johnson:He just happened to didn't think it was important to put that up higher on his resume that he was fluent. I think it was Spanish, it was whatever language it was boom, right there. It was just jaw dropping. I've told that story a million times. That just because he happened to say that he spoke a second language pretty much. I don't know whether he got a job our not, but it was there.
Ken Lazar:Well he didn't think it was important, but it was tremendously important.
Brett Johnson:Tremendously important at that moment in time. Serendipity yeah.
Carol Ventresca:Even if he didn't get a job there with Honda, he got a good life lesson to move that up on his arrest.
Brett Johnson:The things that you don't think are important are important to somebody you just don't know at some point in time.
Frank Agin:Well that's where you get to the word. Serendipity I mean he may have been in a setting and it way perfectly fine on his resume exactly where it's at. But I think that underscores the point is that you can't judge these things. I love the advice Ken, of just going getting on meet up and just going to some whatever I don't want to say crazy group but just go meet people because we're all connected something.
Carol Ventresca:Outside of your yeah, go meet people. And for both of you, I mean you guys have been networking for years. You don't know everybody, but you probably know a lot of people. So what a great opportunity to go to a group that when you don't really know that many if anybody yeah.
Ken Lazar:I got on a group, it's like I'm a total nerd but metal detecting. So I got on this group, I got excited. So I bought a metal detector and the guy around down the street, his grandmother owns a farm. So I went out in the field and with this metal detector I must have looked like a total nerd out there and I'm finding all kinds of old nails and old farm equipment stuff out there. I thought I was an archaeologist.
Frank Agin:Right.
Ken Lazar:I way just finding old metal. But there's a lot of people out there that are cool.
Brett Johnson:Exactly. Well, one top issue I did want to include in the list of the best practices is the need for immediate action. Whether it's a thank you note, research or possibly completing applications or. Sending resumes, just doing what you're supposed to do. It's important to do your follow up, Frank. Any additional steps as a networker should complete after a connection is made or after a networking event?
Frank Agin:I like writing handwritten notes. I will go to an event I do a lot worldwide now, nationwide, just because of the growth of my business. But I have gone to a lot of business first breakfasts, a lot of events locally. And I'll go there. And my rule of thumb is I try to meet five people. If there's five people, there five people. If there's 5005 people. And I will leave the event. I won't go far. Get a coke. And I'll write handwritten notes.
Ken Lazar:Do you write them on the back of the card? Frank? Do you write on the back of the card?
Frank Agin:No, like a note card. A thank you card.
Ken Lazar:Sorry. Okay.
Frank Agin:Yes, I'll have a card. And so I encourage people to do that because most people don't. Most people don't, and I am shocked. I met a guy on a train who was, like an expert networking expert. We exchanged cards, whatever, and I wrote him a note. And he never even wrote a note or acknowledged me. I'm like, you're a fraud. But at any rate and that note, what I encourage that note to have is just a simple thank you for their time. You don't need to say, hey, this is Bob. I need a job. Right. Or anything like that. Certainly follow up with something that maybe you pledged to do. Hey, we were talking. You said you were looking for a new admin.
Frank Agin:I know somebody, if you email me, I'll get you their name, something beyond what you're looking for. Those things are memorable.
Brett Johnson:Yeah, I agree.
Carol Ventresca:One thing, because I'm a handwritten note giver sender, it's very difficult to get addresses today.
Frank Agin:That is true.
Carol Ventresca:And I've had to find an electronic hand note because I have somebody's email. But there have been times that I have searched everywhere and cannot find somebody's address. Even going to the county auditor's website to see if they own property anywhere. I agree with you. Handwritten notes, I still think, are the best way to communicate and to show you are willing to go the extra steps. But if you don't have an address, there are other ways.
Frank Agin:Well, for much of the crowd we're talking to, bath and Bodyworks will probably always have an address. Right? I mean, some of the bigger employers, they'll always have an address. But you're right, there are solopreneurs out there that just and often websites don't have addresses. Yeah, exactly.
Carol Ventresca:Some tips.
Ken Lazar:I got ten.
Carol Ventresca:Okay, you go for it.
Ken Lazar:I wrote them down. This is my ten cardinal rules of networking, and I think Frank gave me seven of them.
Frank Agin:Okay.
Ken Lazar:Number one, it takes patience. Two, it's a learned skill. Number three, you have to believe in the process. Number four, you have to be strategic. Number five, it requires a diversified plan. In other words, a lot of different types of networking events do it with courtesy, think creatively. And the first and second rule of networking is give first and then give back, and show integrity and reliability. And number ten, which is the most important. And a lot of people, some people are very good at this is make it easy for people to help you know what you want. So I have a friend who has been out of work a couple of times over the past few years, and I'll always get this call from Scott, ken, can you meet with me? And I says, yeah. So he's got an Excel spreadsheet, and he's got all the companies that he wants to work for, and he's got the names of the people in that company who can hire him. He says, Ken, do you know any of these people? And I'll say, yeah, I know this one, I know this one, I know this one. He says that's enough.
Ken Lazar:Three would be enough. Says, can you introduce me? Not recommend me, because introduction and recommending are two big differences. Can you introduce me? I said, I'll do that. But that took about 1015 minutes, and he knew exactly what he wanted me to do, and it was easy for me to help him. Have you run into, like, can you find me a job? Versus can you find me? Can you tell me where our who do you know?
Frank Agin:Do you know this person?
Ken Lazar:Yeah, that's it.
Frank Agin:I generally have people coming to me saying, hey, I've lost my job. And everybody says, I need to talk to you.
Ken Lazar:Yeah, they do.
Frank Agin:Well, and I just say, Listen, I don't have a Greyhound bus traveling the city that come pick up Ed. He needs a job. And I always tell people, I look at networking like golf, right? Golf is not about hitting a ball 400 yards and dropping in a hole. Golf is about hitting the ball 100 yards at a time.
Ken Lazar:Move it forward, move it forward.
Frank Agin:Just move it forward. Every shot is going to get you a little closer. And that's how people need to look at networking. And so I'll tell people who come to me, listen, I don't necessarily know people who are hiring, but I know people who know people. And that'll be my introduction, my help to you. And occasionally, occasionally, somebody's looking, I just ran into somebody, but it doesn't happen. That serendipitously.
Carol Ventresca:I think we've hit as many words of wisdom as we can, but if you have any last words of wisdom.
Frank Agin:I get to ask this question all the time, Frank. If people could do one thing, one thing, what would you have them do? And my response is volunteer. Find something you love to do something you're passionate about and get out there and volunteer, because you're going to find yourself elbow to elbow who care about the same thing you do. You don't have to come flying in and saying, I'm unemployed or anything like that. All that stuff will come out or this is my business, but they're going to know that you care about something other than yourself. But the people who see you volunteering, who have no interest in what you're doing, oh, it's a pet charity. I could care less. But they know, just by virtue of the fact that you're giving your time, that you're a good person. And I just think getting out and doing that and it's probably good. Well, it is good for the soul just to kind of get out there.
Carol Ventresca:And give mentally, get out of your own head space, see a larger world.
Frank Agin:Yeah. Well, you were talking about the executive who's stuck in his basement. Right. What he needed was just to be out there. Well, I remember early on when I had a law practice, I had a client who wasn't going to pay me $500. It was very clear I was beside myself. Right. I was just so dejected. It wasn't a game changer, but it just bothered me that somebody would have that little integrity. And I remember going to a network meeting. Were you okay, Frank? What's happening? Yeah, somebody's not paying me. That happened to me last week. At that moment, I realized, you know what?
Frank Agin:The network can help you just kind of get through these little moments. You know what? Everybody has this this is business that's going to happen again. So your guy getting out and finding out that yeah. Being let go in this day and age, I don't want to call it a badge of honor, but it's not that badge of shame that it once was.
Carol Ventresca:Right? Very much.
Brett Johnson:Yeah.
Carol Ventresca:Any last words of wisdom?
Ken Lazar:I tell everybody to call Frank.
Carol Ventresca:Okay. We'll put Frank's number on our thanks.
Brett Johnson:To our networking experts ken Lazar from ability professional network, and Frank Egan from AmSpirit Business connections for joining us. Listeners, thank you for joining us. And don't forget to check out our show notes on the website for contact information. The resources we mentioned, we'll have it all collected together. You can also find all of this information on the website. Looking forward our way way.com and we're looking forward to hearing your feedback on this, our any other podcast episode.
