Shownotes
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Listen to the whole "Flavours of Care Series":
https://player.captivate.fm/collection/ab81dab3-b346-4dbb-bcad-f7034dfa5e00
Description
What if understanding your unique personality traits could revolutionize how you care for and connect with others?
This episode revisits a profound conversation with Tamara Kroeker, an Enneagram expert, as she explores the intricate dynamics of Type 2 Helpers, the selfless caregivers who often neglect their needs while striving to keep others happy. Through rich discussions, the episode differentiates Type 2s from Type 9 Peacemakers, highlighting the varied desires for relational harmony versus inner peace. Tamara and hosts Wendi Park and Johan Heinrichs delve into the emotional depths of Helpers, shedding light on their strengths, potential for resentment, and paths to personal growth. The dialogue extends to other Enneagram types, painting a comprehensive picture of how diverse personalities contribute to community well-being. Finally, the episode teases an upcoming conversation with Dr. Michael Hrenick on sustainable helping, promising further insightful explorations in the series.
Time Stamps
[00:00] Episode Introduction with Johan
[08:15] The Enneagram reveals unconscious behavior's hidden depth.
[11:58] Understanding individuality and self-discovery through language.
[18:04] Human experience: body, emotions, mind, preference.
[21:16] Eights: loyal, strong, direct, authentic, dependable friend.
[28:35] Prioritize self-discovery to benefit community integration.
[32:43] Encouraging constructive criticism for team improvement.
[39:55] Twos excel at helping; embrace personal needs.
[45:55] Leading collaboratively, inherently drawing like-minded individuals.
[51:52] Fours are misunderstood; emotions often undervalued.
[53:13] Church empaths offer safe support for vulnerability.
]01:01:54] Loyalist Enneagram 6: cautious, essential, balanced interaction.
[01:08:56] Dreamers must embrace reality for true adventure.
Guest Links
Enneagram Aware: https://www.enneagramaware.ca/
Other Links
Flavours of Care Series: https://player.captivate.fm/collection/ab81dab3-b346-4dbb-bcad-f7034dfa5e00
Reach out to us! https://journeywithcare.ca/podcast
Email: podcast@careimpact.ca
CareImpact: careimpact.ca
About the CarePortal: careimpact.ca/careportal
DONATE! Help connect and equip more churches across Canada to effectively journey well in community with the most vulnerable: careimpact.ca/donate
Editing and production by Johan Heinrichs: arkpodcasts.ca
Transcripts
Hello. Johan here. Welcome back to Journey with Care. I'm really glad that you joined
Speaker:me today as I continue our replay series. We're looking back at some of
Speaker:those most meaningful conversations that we had and just some of
Speaker:our favorite episodes that we wanted to make sure that people got a chance to
Speaker:listen to either a second time or a first time and ones that we believe
Speaker:are worth a second lesson. This episode especially was a lot of
Speaker:fun. It was the start of a longer series that we did called The Flavors
Speaker:of Care. We did it on the different ways people care. In fact, we even
Speaker:had a big ice cream party at the end of it. It was a ton
Speaker:of fun. In this episode, we had the chance to sit down with
Speaker:Tamara. She's an Enneagram expert who runs
Speaker:Enneagram Aware. She actually quit her teaching job to start this. She
Speaker:does a lot of consultation for different groups and companies, that sort of thing. Anyway,
Speaker:she shared her
Speaker:Anyway, she shared her personal journey of self discovery of the Enneagram and powerful
Speaker:lessons that she learned about caring for others. She opened up about
Speaker:her understanding of Enneagram and how it completely changed the way
Speaker:that she approaches her life, her work, and her community. And then
Speaker:she went into the importance of the inner work, the deep work,
Speaker:learning to accept yourself, the subtle ways that we show up for one another.
Speaker:Her story really sets the tone for the series, so we wanted to dive into
Speaker:it again and into the different perspectives on caregiving and the Enneagram
Speaker:and explore how our unique personalities and life experiences
Speaker:shape how we care. And let me tell you, this conversation really
Speaker:sparked some meaningful discussions around dinner tables. It got a
Speaker:lot of people thinking about the different ways that we care and even just the
Speaker:different ways that we tick and interact with one another. I know me and my
Speaker:wife had some conversations too, so it was really neat. And I know that you'll
Speaker:find something that resonates with you too. So, again, whether this is your first time
Speaker:listening or you're coming back for a second listen, I encourage you to stick with
Speaker:the whole episode and share it with someone who might need to hear these insights
Speaker:and maybe you wanna go listen to the whole series or just a couple that
Speaker:might interest you. So thanks again for listening. We look forward to starting
Speaker:season 4 in February. Lots of good stuff on the way. So sit down,
Speaker:enjoy this conversation between Wendy and Tamara.
Speaker:Well, I'm excited to kick off a new series here on
Speaker:Journey with Care. We're gonna be diving right into the flavors of
Speaker:care. And with me, I'm so delighted to have Tamara Craker. Welcome
Speaker:to the podcast. I'm very excited to be here. Yeah. We're gonna
Speaker:have a fun time today setting the stage for what will be
Speaker:another 9 episodes. And when we're talking about
Speaker:flavors of care, we're really wanting to dive right in, dig
Speaker:right into the ways people care in their
Speaker:community and just identifying and acknowledging
Speaker:and appreciating the diversity within our communities and
Speaker:how we look at the world, what motivates our care,
Speaker:and we're gonna be hearing from a lot of people over the next
Speaker:weeks to really understand their stories and how we're wired
Speaker:differently to care. And some of you may be familiar
Speaker:with the Enneagram. This isn't that show, but we are gonna
Speaker:be diving a little bit into that tool, and that's why I've invited
Speaker:our friend here, Tamara Craker, to the podcast
Speaker:because you know a lot about it. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Speaker:Well, my journey with the Enneagram started
Speaker:almost 10 years ago, and I was looking
Speaker:at a list of what an
Speaker:Enneagram 9 would maybe be thinking, and every single
Speaker:one of them was me. And I thought, how is it
Speaker:possible that something or someone
Speaker:would know kind of an insight into my inner world and be
Speaker:able to name it in a way that I couldn't even name all the
Speaker:time. So I really started
Speaker:because I was super curious about
Speaker:myself and about this system
Speaker:that kind of provided a sense of
Speaker:self awareness, self acceptance, and a way to
Speaker:expand kind of how I think. So over the
Speaker:last 2 decades, I've been a teacher, and I've taught different ages and
Speaker:different subject areas, most recently as a music teacher.
Speaker:But as I started digging into the Enneagram and
Speaker:realizing how transformative it is and how it
Speaker:shifted even how I was as a teacher and how I related to people
Speaker:around me, I just had a feeling that it
Speaker:was gonna be my next big move. So when it shifted, would you say
Speaker:it's altered sort of who you thought of yourself or the
Speaker:direction and you just learned more about yourself? What what happened as you
Speaker:were doing that? I think I became more and more
Speaker:aware of my patterns and behaviors, and I realized that
Speaker:at some point, the amount of books and studying I could
Speaker:do individually was reaching its limit, and I really wanted
Speaker:to seek some professional guidance. So some professional
Speaker:courses, some professional coaching so that I could take it
Speaker:to the next level. So you are making a shift,
Speaker:a significant shift in your life right now from teaching, and I'm sure it's a
Speaker:transferable skill that won't go to waste at all, but you're making
Speaker:a significant shift into coaching, I understand,
Speaker:and your new company or organization is called Enneagram
Speaker:Aware. That's right. Yeah. Literally just launching it right now.
Speaker:So I'm very excited. What's the website? We're gonna bring your first,
Speaker:people to your website. So my website is going to be enneagram
Speaker:aware dotca. Whoop whoop. Go there for lots of
Speaker:education on the Enneagram and finding out your number
Speaker:and a little bit of psychology, Johari Window, the
Speaker:circle of change, some of those really interesting concepts that
Speaker:promotes awareness, promotes the idea that we maybe
Speaker:don't know as much as we think we know about ourselves.
Speaker:So tell me a little bit more about
Speaker:making that shift, and you must really believe in self
Speaker:awareness and understanding our relation with others and and in
Speaker:our community to make that shift. Why is it so important
Speaker:to help others find their awareness? Well, for me,
Speaker:we'll get into this later, but I'm an Enneagram 9. And so the
Speaker:majority of my life has been spent trying to figure out
Speaker:other people's lives. And so it took me a
Speaker:long time to realize that my focus was on others instead
Speaker:of my own ideas, preferences, things
Speaker:that I actually liked and wanted. And so the journey with the
Speaker:Enneagram has brought me to a place where I can look at
Speaker:teaching, and I can look at it and say, I like this. I'm
Speaker:good at this, but is it what I really want to do right now?
Speaker:And as I've kind of done that inner self
Speaker:discovery, I've realized that the things that I brought to teaching, the
Speaker:skills, and the ways that I welcome students into my
Speaker:classroom, those were things that I got better at as I got
Speaker:to know myself better. And those skills are going to
Speaker:work in a lot of different professions. And so while I am
Speaker:not leaving teaching because I don't like it, I really liked it and
Speaker:still would love to teach. I really wanna try something in a
Speaker:subject area that I'm super passionate about, and that's why I'm making the move
Speaker:to teach in the Enneagram world and see what that looks like
Speaker:and see where that takes me next. So talk to the person
Speaker:that is maybe skeptical about, well, you can't corner me
Speaker:into one type. I I'm, like, I'm a little more nuanced, or aren't
Speaker:we all just people? How do you work through that? Because I know
Speaker:as I've done inner work, it's so much more. Right. We can't go into possibly
Speaker:go into it in this series alone, but but how do you work with that?
Speaker:It may be a bit of pushback on that self awareness and, oh, this is
Speaker:just another construct. Sure. And I think it can be
Speaker:what you want it to be. I've heard it said that the Enneagram
Speaker:and self discovery kinda come to you when you're ready for it. So I
Speaker:think that there's a lot of cliches out there around the Enneagram
Speaker:where follow this meme or what would each Enneagram number do at a party
Speaker:and It gives it a bad rap, actually. I followed some things on, like,
Speaker:Insta and and things like that, and I'm like, oh goodness. No wonder people roll
Speaker:their eyes at it. Yeah. I think that those things can be
Speaker:fun, and I think that those things can bring some interest
Speaker:into your life and around the family dinner table. That's all fine and good.
Speaker:But what I've certainly learned about the Enneagram is it is
Speaker:far more nuanced than it appears on the surface
Speaker:and that as you start diving into the ins and
Speaker:outs and really interesting aspects
Speaker:of how the human mind works and how
Speaker:different people think about situations differently, I
Speaker:think you'll find really, like, a a treasure of stuff
Speaker:to discover. It really stems for me around the idea
Speaker:that we are not totally conscious of the ways that we are
Speaker:moving through the world. And so I found that
Speaker:the more I can accept that I may be
Speaker:behaving in ways that other people can see or
Speaker:that I can't even see myself and maybe nobody can see,
Speaker:you can kind of start figuring out ways that
Speaker:you're behaving and ways that you're interacting with
Speaker:people that are happening on a completely different level. And
Speaker:so the whole concept of the iceberg where, you know, the top
Speaker:is what you're seeing and you're conscious of how you're
Speaker:responding to somebody or someone invites you for coffee and you say
Speaker:yes, why did you say yes? There's so many
Speaker:layers below that where, you know, you had a relationship with that
Speaker:person from 10 years ago. So you're saying yes because you kinda feel bad. Or
Speaker:maybe you're saying yes because you're lonely and you really wanna hang out
Speaker:with someone. Or maybe you're saying yes because that's your mom's friend and you kinda
Speaker:feel like you should. So there's there's not Or you have a networking
Speaker:agenda or there's, like, I see a party. I don't wanna miss out.
Speaker:There's so many ways Totally. To look at the same incident, and I love
Speaker:that about this kind of work, and it's just
Speaker:really celebrating how we're wired. Yes. Exactly.
Speaker:So there's so much more to it. So I get that on the surface the
Speaker:way some people have presented it, it feels narrow, and it
Speaker:feels like we're being put in a box. But the truth is that
Speaker:we all have developed ways of dealing with the world
Speaker:around us, and some of those ways help us more than others. And the
Speaker:enneagram is about kind of examining those ways and seeing what is
Speaker:working and what isn't. Well, I'll take us back to our our whole
Speaker:series called flavors of care. It's like, I could like
Speaker:all kinds of flavors of ice cream, but I keep going
Speaker:back to that one favorite comfort. And when I need
Speaker:something, it's that type of ice cream. And it's really like
Speaker:that within ourselves. We can dabble. We have a bit of everything in
Speaker:us. Right? But in default mode, we have a
Speaker:preference. We have something, and and we're we're looking at
Speaker:why do I prefer that. Even going further, we have things
Speaker:that we choose when we're really healthy and when we're feeling really, really good, and
Speaker:then we have things that we choose when we're not feeling so good and we're
Speaker:really on autopilot. And the Enneagram is a
Speaker:space that envelops all of it. Mhmm. It isn't just saying,
Speaker:hey. You always look this way. It's saying, here's a whole bunch
Speaker:of reasons you might be looking this way. You might be looking this way
Speaker:and working with that and not saying it's wrong or this way is better
Speaker:or that way is worse. It's looking at it and providing a
Speaker:path forward to really embrace
Speaker:who you are and the humanity that is good, bad, and
Speaker:ugly, all of it. So what we're saying is really a tool
Speaker:a tool of many Yes. But one that many people go to
Speaker:for good reasons, and it just gives us
Speaker:language to do that inner work. Absolutely. It gives us language to
Speaker:talk about something we haven't always been able to access
Speaker:or understand of ourselves and that self discovery as we go about
Speaker:life. And I have to also say that I
Speaker:have met people who would identify in the same numbers,
Speaker:same preferences, same wings. We are not gonna go into all of that today.
Speaker:However, they're still very unique individuals. It doesn't they can look and
Speaker:behave even quite differently, but there's core motivations, core strengths, and
Speaker:core ways of seeing things that make sense
Speaker:to that person. And so it's not saying, oh, you're
Speaker:you're the same person now. It's bringing us back, and this is where
Speaker:theology really fits in. God made us in his image. I believe God
Speaker:has has everything within him, all the good, and we all are made
Speaker:in his image, but we have different reflections of the same
Speaker:creator. Yes. And all of it is good. So we're gonna
Speaker:celebrate that through the different flavors that
Speaker:we are going to dig into. So, like, figuratively, grab your spoon. Spoon. We're
Speaker:gonna dig into different 9 different ice cream scoops today.
Speaker:And then the the coming weeks, we're gonna really listen to
Speaker:people, and you're gonna hear. People are gonna hear the difference in the stories and
Speaker:perspectives of how they view caring for their community and
Speaker:how they feel loved. So much of it is our own self acceptance and
Speaker:our own ways of fitting in within the community in an
Speaker:authentic way, not in a forced way that community
Speaker:expects of you. I don't know about you. If you've lived in that, it it's
Speaker:a hard space to be and living in other people's expectations that
Speaker:doesn't resonate with who we are. Absolutely. And I think that is the
Speaker:danger of the Enneagram is saying, I'm a 9. Oh, look at me being a
Speaker:9. Oh, this is me being a 9, and I think we can lean
Speaker:into some of those cliches too heavily, and that's really not
Speaker:Or permission for bad behavior or whatever. Right? That's not the purpose of what
Speaker:we're trying to do. We're trying to examine what those look like.
Speaker:And, yes, there's laughs along the way, and everyone likes a different ice cream
Speaker:scoop, and that's part of the journey is being
Speaker:curious and having fun and embracing the
Speaker:fullness of what this is. Yeah. So in this series that
Speaker:we're beginning today, about the flavors of care, we're
Speaker:not gonna be making everybody experts on the Enneagram.
Speaker:We're not trying to assume authority over this this big
Speaker:subject. We're gonna invite people. If you're interested to more to do the
Speaker:deep work, we'll we'll include some things in the show notes, some links, and some
Speaker:things if you wanna do that. What are some other advice for people that are
Speaker:curious or wanting to do their own work in that area? Because we're not gonna
Speaker:cover it all. What are some words of wisdom you would have for
Speaker:for people? Sure. I think probably the most
Speaker:dangerous thing is someone who kinda likes the Enneagram and tells everybody
Speaker:else what type they are. It's really important to remember that
Speaker:your Enneagram number is yours to identify,
Speaker:and it is not up to you to identify others and
Speaker:for others to identify you. So I think it's really important to do your
Speaker:own work. Mhmm. I think it's also really important to remember
Speaker:that there aren't worse or better numbers. There
Speaker:are lots of levels of health and unhealth that exist in all of
Speaker:us, and in a given day, we are all of those things. So
Speaker:there isn't a better or worse in this system. Good
Speaker:point. I think sometimes people are confused in what number they
Speaker:are because we're actually all the numbers. Like we said earlier,
Speaker:we're all made in God's image, and we actually contain a little
Speaker:bit of all of these numbers. And so if you're confused at first and
Speaker:aren't totally sure what your number is, that isn't
Speaker:uncommon. So there may be some that stand out to you,
Speaker:and that is a perfect opportunity to dive into those
Speaker:numbers a little bit deeper. You don't need to feel scared if you don't find
Speaker:yourself immediately. There's actually a number that thinks they're all the
Speaker:numbers. And guess what? It's mine. Enneagram 9 thinks that they're
Speaker:everyone. So That doesn't surprise me. So don't worry about it. I'm
Speaker:there. I thought I was every number under the sun, and that
Speaker:usually means you're a 9. So You know what happened for me is
Speaker:that when I did some more work into it and and did reading,
Speaker:listened to some podcasts and stuff, I struggled to embrace the
Speaker:number that I actually naturally resonated most with me. Because
Speaker:I'm like, what white Mennonite girl could be
Speaker:possibly be the challenger? That's not cool. I've been
Speaker:conditioned to be a 2, to be the helper. Yes.
Speaker:And, yeah, the more I listened to the good, the bad, and the
Speaker:ugly and leaned into it and started doing my inner
Speaker:work that nobody else no book could tell you, you just gotta,
Speaker:through prayer and through reading, through just community, I
Speaker:discovered actually where I thrived, and I actually fought my
Speaker:own number. And yet it I I fought it at the same
Speaker:time, I exhaled. I finally
Speaker:found, oh, I can accept who I am
Speaker:Yep. Even when I felt in so many
Speaker:circumstances, like, too much. Well and I think that's so
Speaker:important to note is that sometimes the way we've been socialized
Speaker:predisposes us to certain numbers, and it's not necessarily
Speaker:the the way we are. It's the water we've been swimming in. And when you
Speaker:really do some of that examination, it may turn out
Speaker:differently than you think. And sometimes you feel uncomfortable.
Speaker:That's legitimate. It's that idea of when a light shines on you,
Speaker:there's going to be shadows and there's going to be things that make you
Speaker:go, oh, I didn't want anyone to know that about me or I, you
Speaker:know, I struggled to even admit that to myself, and that's There's a
Speaker:vulnerability with that. And that's part of the process.
Speaker:So we're going to go there. We're gonna dive right in to
Speaker:the 9 flavors that we've we've brought out, and, of
Speaker:course, there's nuances to that. You've particularly
Speaker:suggested, an order to how we go about the different
Speaker:flavors. Do you wanna talk briefly about that? Sure. And we're gonna dive right
Speaker:in. Sure. So the human experience is we
Speaker:we see it in 3 kind of different areas. We experience life through our
Speaker:body, through kind of our instincts. We experience life in our emotions
Speaker:and our feelings, and then, finally, a lot of it's experience
Speaker:life in our mind and how we think through things. And none of
Speaker:those three experiences and ways of knowing are better or worse,
Speaker:but, typically, people lean into one more than the others.
Speaker:So the way that I've been taught the Enneagram is I've
Speaker:been taught it in those three centers of knowing.
Speaker:So we were talking about going through the numbers
Speaker:center by center. So the body based centers, the ones who kind of,
Speaker:like, act first and they're ready to go, that would be numbers. Like
Speaker:the gut? Yeah. From the gut. And, you know, when I knew I needed to
Speaker:quit my job and move on, I knew it in my body. Had a hunch.
Speaker:I had a hunch. Yeah. So you would lean on to that rather than doing
Speaker:all the analytics, and you've got everything squared away on a spreadsheet. Yes.
Speaker:So the numbers that kinda lead with the gut and lead with action
Speaker:are 8, 9, and 1. And then the numbers that lead
Speaker:with their feelings and lead more with their heart center
Speaker:would be 2, 3, and 4. They're more connected to their emotions
Speaker:either by repressing them or internalizing them or really
Speaker:diving into them. And then the final center, the head or
Speaker:thinking center, would be 5, 6, and 7. And
Speaker:they're more prone to logic and more prone to really having a a
Speaker:system and a strategy to move forward. Okay. No. That's really
Speaker:good. So we're gonna start with, what did you call it, the body
Speaker:instinctive center, and you've chosen the 8. Oh,
Speaker:no. I'm on the pot seat. And we've
Speaker:called the eights the challengers. First of all,
Speaker:if you could create an ice cream that would embody
Speaker:the challenger we're just having fun here, so, guys, don't get too serious on here.
Speaker:Just grab a spoon. Okay? What would you describe an
Speaker:ice cream that would be the challenger in an assortment of ice creams?
Speaker:Well, that's such an interesting question. I feel like I need to flip that
Speaker:back to you. So I've heard a lot of like, eights are
Speaker:intense. Eights really come with a lot of
Speaker:energy, and they're happy to state what they like.
Speaker:Strong and challenging. Right? That's right. That's right. Mind
Speaker:sticking out a bit if we have to. Right. So, I mean, I've heard
Speaker:triple chocolate because that's, like, a lot. Love triple chocolate.
Speaker:Okay. I love triple chocolate. I was thinking black tiger because it's, like, a really
Speaker:strong whether you love it or hate it, it's always there. So I I
Speaker:don't even like it, but that's when came to mind, but I like I actually
Speaker:enjoy the chocolate intensity. You can't get too
Speaker:much. Okay. So let's go with the triple chocolate. I think triple chocolate fits. And
Speaker:I have an 8th friend who, once she has her mind set on
Speaker:something, don't even think about trying to change it. It's
Speaker:just probably not gonna happen. Because in our gut, we just
Speaker:kinda know. Know. Like, to the point where we went through a drive through
Speaker:once, and she said, okay. If they don't have the Nutella croissant, we're just moving
Speaker:on, and we're going to the next Tim Hortons. And we just kept on going
Speaker:until we found exactly what she wanted. Yeah. So, like, let's
Speaker:talk about that. Sure. So the eights are
Speaker:the friend that always has your back. I think the
Speaker:eights are strong and bold, and sometimes they get a bad
Speaker:rap for being very direct and blunt
Speaker:Mhmm. Or we could call it to the point. And some aids
Speaker:have a better nuance around how to deliver their bluntness,
Speaker:but you never have to feel like you don't know what they're
Speaker:thinking. They are who they are. I also know
Speaker:that I'm not prone to passive
Speaker:aggression. Maybe aggression. What you see is what you get.
Speaker:There's no hidden agenda. What I I've got got no time
Speaker:for for playing games or what do you really mean. I'll say
Speaker:what I mean. Yes. And I'm learning how to do it tactfully. But yeah.
Speaker:And, actually, what I find and and we'll go into the 8 site. I'm not
Speaker:gonna to to steal the show for who's gonna be coming with me to
Speaker:this journey on Enneagram 8 with Caitlin Cron. But
Speaker:there's intimacy that happens when there's confrontation or intensity
Speaker:Yes. When we even have good debates
Speaker:or pose we're not against people, but there's an intimacy
Speaker:that happens when we're like, okay. Now we're getting to something good. Yes. Well
Speaker:and that is when we think about the whole community as a whole.
Speaker:You need that person that's prepared to say, hey.
Speaker:That felt awkward. Here's what my interpretation of that is. And
Speaker:to jump right into that instead of backing away from those moments that
Speaker:other people aren't so sure about, you need that number to get
Speaker:in there and get their feet dirty and get it going.
Speaker:So in the church, we need eights. Yes. We need challengers in
Speaker:there when they're in their health. Yes. Because it can also be a bomb that's
Speaker:ready to detonate. So this is why, folks, do yourself
Speaker:awareness because, otherwise, we're just dangerous. Right? Get your journal out.
Speaker:Everyone get journaling. Ace. But in our health, the church needs
Speaker:us because we will actually identify the elephants in
Speaker:the sanctuary, not in a condemning angry way.
Speaker:We're just saying, let's do something. This is intimacy. Can we chop at this
Speaker:together? Can we work at social justice together? We wanna defend
Speaker:the underdog Mhmm. Like nobody's business. We love so
Speaker:intensely that sometimes we get misinterpreted. Yes. And we have to learn
Speaker:how to nuance that as well to work with others. Well, and I think it's
Speaker:a really beautiful thing when an 8 gets behind an issue
Speaker:because I think that there is so much power in what they
Speaker:bring to the table. They're not gonna quit until they see
Speaker:justice coming to the forefront. I
Speaker:think the challenge, like you're saying, is not taking that all on
Speaker:themselves. Mhmm. And to acknowledge that while other
Speaker:people have their power showing in very different ways,
Speaker:those ways aren't worse. They are just different.
Speaker:And so the collective power that the aid is seeking
Speaker:is in that community coming together and building
Speaker:something amazing. And I think we also have to look at the
Speaker:shadow side of a challenger, that
Speaker:triple chocolate ice cream, is that
Speaker:we don't wanna be controlled. We feel threatened when we're
Speaker:controlled or people try to manipulate. I can sniff through
Speaker:that. No. No. No. No. You're not gonna do that. We we we
Speaker:fear that. We don't do well with that, and
Speaker:those are just some realities that we we talked about earlier before the
Speaker:show that there's always a flip side. Our strengths become our challenges, and
Speaker:just becoming aware of that, it doesn't mean we deny ourselves. It just becomes, let's
Speaker:be a healthier version of ourselves and understand where
Speaker:God is leading us toward wholeness and healing. Well and 90%
Speaker:of that is an acceptance of it. It's seeing that pattern in
Speaker:yourself and going, I feel that pattern coming up again. That will get
Speaker:you 90% of the way forward rather than
Speaker:pretending it doesn't exist or trying to fight against that
Speaker:feeling of vulnerability inside of you. Yeah. Trust me. Being a a
Speaker:suppressed 8 is no good. It is just no
Speaker:fun, and nothing would change. Come on, guys.
Speaker:Okay. I wanna put you on the hot seat now. Okay. We're gonna go on
Speaker:to the next number 9, the harmonizer, which we affectionately
Speaker:call what ice cream would you give for your
Speaker:people? My answer is whatever you want, I'm fine with.
Speaker:That is so 9. Such a harmony answer.
Speaker:Well, so I actually I do like cookies and cream. That is my
Speaker:favorite. Like, that classic vanilla with, like, a little bit
Speaker:of fun in it. Like, Oreos are my favorite cookie. Like, don't Who
Speaker:doesn't like it? So you mean It could be a party favorite you bring it
Speaker:to Right. To a potlucks. So they're nothing, like, too wild and crazy.
Speaker:There's a bit of comfort in it Yeah. Yeah. Is definitely my
Speaker:my double edged sword if we're looking at that comfort. I will choose
Speaker:comfort over lots of other things. It must be
Speaker:fun to be a harmonizer because harmonizer is always the the loved one, the
Speaker:the soft, the the kind one in the group, in my experience anyway.
Speaker:I was thinking, actually, you didn't wanna offend anyone, and you wanted to be the
Speaker:vanilla with a ton of different toppings. Everybody choose your own toppings so
Speaker:everybody's happy. Well, that's actually thought of a 9. That's one of my
Speaker:favorite things is a Sunday bar. Absolutely. Where you actually get to
Speaker:choose yeah. Like, the Tutti Frutti where you, like, go through the line and
Speaker:get your frozen yogurt, and you just get exactly what you want without being
Speaker:influenced by everybody else. Thoughtful. I would have tried to push on why
Speaker:the the triple dark chocolate would be the best. An 8 and
Speaker:a 9 discussing ice cream. So so tell me a little bit more
Speaker:about being a harmonizer, just a a broad stroke. So I think
Speaker:what I've learned is I appear to be very
Speaker:peaceful and calm on the outside, but I am very aware that my
Speaker:internal world is working overtime. Oh, really? Yeah. So I
Speaker:think that either that's my double edged sword of being the
Speaker:peacemaker where I'm constantly trying to
Speaker:evaluate how everybody is feeling and making sure that everybody is
Speaker:staying happy and making sure that their needs and anything that they could
Speaker:possibly be thinking about is being tackled to the
Speaker:detriment of anything that I would possibly want or need. I'm
Speaker:not even on the priority list. I I don't make the cut.
Speaker:So how does that play itself out if you're harmonizing to the
Speaker:detriment of who you are? How do you work with that? You know,
Speaker:for me, personally, it took me literally
Speaker:falling asleep in my own mind so I would get this brain
Speaker:fog where I would know that I was forgetting
Speaker:myself, and I didn't totally get
Speaker:it. I didn't totally get it. I thought maybe I was stressed or I was
Speaker:tired or I was something, which incidentally, like, nines
Speaker:are classic sloths, lazy, tired is what we get
Speaker:called, but it really isn't I do a lot. I'm active.
Speaker:It's just internally, I forget myself constantly. So
Speaker:I really needed to look inside and see what was
Speaker:causing some of those moments of forgetfulness,
Speaker:and they're everywhere now. Now that's all I can see. So you're learning to
Speaker:find that voice? Yes. Yeah. And where would a harmonizer
Speaker:shine in community in relation to caring for their community? Where do they
Speaker:shine? Where are they rock stars? You know, the harmonizer's an interesting
Speaker:one because my natural inclination is always to do what other people
Speaker:need, and that actually ends up being to my detriment.
Speaker:So for me to start learning what I like and want so that
Speaker:I stand as my own person within a community
Speaker:is actually my best way forward. So the whole idea
Speaker:that you can't love others until you love yourself is
Speaker:loud and clear as a warning bell in the 9 harmonizer.
Speaker:So for me, my path forward has been to examine
Speaker:me so that I can actually bring a full person into the
Speaker:community of God instead of bringing a half person
Speaker:that people think that they good. That they need or want.
Speaker:Right. Does that make sense? Because you are that best gift when your whole self
Speaker:comes, and I'm okay with that. Right? When it means I'm a bit needier than
Speaker:I would have liked to have been. Yeah. Yeah. So I could also see
Speaker:it playing out in sort of more of a healthy diplomat where some
Speaker:might be overtaking charge or some might be withdrawn. You actually
Speaker:are seeking the peace of the community. Yes. And
Speaker:you can read a room like no one else Yes. To
Speaker:understand what is needed to bring that harmony. Yep. And
Speaker:that's beautiful. You know, it really is a skill that I didn't
Speaker:realize other people didn't have. Mhmm. And it has
Speaker:operated at various levels of health for me, but I can match
Speaker:energy really well. So when I know that, you know, a space needs something
Speaker:more fun, I'm happy to be more fun. When someone wants to come and
Speaker:challenge me like an 8, I can come up against that and I'm
Speaker:happy to, you know, bring that energy too. So
Speaker:all those things have such a beautiful place. When they're done from a
Speaker:place where I'm not giving up myself, I'm actually embracing
Speaker:my true self. Alright. Let's go on to the next flavor,
Speaker:the Improver, also known as the Enneagram 1. I am
Speaker:curious what you think what ice cream type they would have. I have a hunch,
Speaker:but so let's see where where we land. So my brother is a
Speaker:1, and the other day, he came home with a
Speaker:locally made ginger mango Thai flavored ice
Speaker:cream. And I thought, that's an interesting
Speaker:choice. And I think if I could get inside his head for a
Speaker:moment, I think he felt like it was very right and good
Speaker:to buy locally. So Yes.
Speaker:So I don't know I mean, it was really good. Honestly, the ice cream
Speaker:was super good, but you could tell It was the right thing to do. The
Speaker:right thing to do. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. Let's go with that one.
Speaker:Okay. So I was thinking a little bit more simple, but I like your yours
Speaker:really exemplifies it. I was thinking of ethically sourced
Speaker:Yes. Vanilla bean premium ice cream, the right one.
Speaker:That's right. Like, the good one. That's right. Yeah. And where all
Speaker:the beans were ethically sourced. Yes. So let's talk about the improver. Yes. What
Speaker:gets them going? You know, the improver has a
Speaker:real desire for things to be good
Speaker:and right. And on the outside, that looks like
Speaker:such a noble cause. But from what I've heard
Speaker:from ones, internally, it causes such a struggle because there
Speaker:is no perfect everything. And so they live in
Speaker:this balance between knowing and seeing what
Speaker:could be better and then feeling the
Speaker:impact of it never getting there. That's such a
Speaker:ironic space to live in
Speaker:because they are so nobly seeking
Speaker:good. And we need that. Absolutely. Right? They're kind of the
Speaker:conscience and they're they're kind of the the people that keeps things checking
Speaker:balance, so we don't cut corners, that things are on the up and
Speaker:up. Absolute he's an accountant, my brother. So Oh, go figure. Yeah.
Speaker:You need all your tax rules followed, you go to him. Like,
Speaker:he is great at what he does, always making sure
Speaker:that things are done properly and well, and it's so beautiful, but
Speaker:then beating himself up when they're not quite there. And then
Speaker:then you never get there. It's impossible. It's impossible to be
Speaker:perfect. Well, I have a very beloved one working on our
Speaker:team. And as an improver, I've
Speaker:actually because I'm not a one. I have a I have a bit of
Speaker:that within me, but I will actually give her a piece of work, a
Speaker:writing or a graph or a concept because I'm a high level
Speaker:thinker visionary, and I'll ask her, invite
Speaker:her in her natural strengths, which she beats herself up on sometimes,
Speaker:but her natural strength, I said poke holes at it because I know you want
Speaker:what's good. I know you are on mission with me and on our Care
Speaker:Impact to to connect and equip the whole church. I know we're going for the
Speaker:same North Star. Now poke holes at it. For the love of God,
Speaker:poke holes at it because I know you want what's good, what's ethical, what's
Speaker:right. Yes. You're gonna challenge me, which I think is intimacy with a
Speaker:one, to say, how can we make this better? Totally. And I
Speaker:otherwise actually don't see it because I'm the optimist. I'm always
Speaker:thinking it'll work itself out in my gut. Yep. Absolutely.
Speaker:Well, and I think the desire for perfection is not the problem.
Speaker:It's what the definition of perfection is because
Speaker:we, as humans, will never be the
Speaker:perfect in every area of perfection, and I don't think that that
Speaker:is what any of us are seeking. There will be days when you are upset
Speaker:about stuff, and there will be days when you don't get along with someone. And
Speaker:those aren't imperfect days. That's humanity. That is
Speaker:embracing what it is to live on the Earth. So I
Speaker:think that their desire is wonderful, and they're wanting
Speaker:to look at things and improve things and make things better for
Speaker:everybody, but it is an unattainable goal.
Speaker:Yeah. Just like ethically sourced vanilla beans. Right? Like, there's a
Speaker:point where you can't be a purist in anything because there
Speaker:there are some things that will fall short. Yes. And I think if there's any
Speaker:encouragement for for any improvers out there to cut yourself
Speaker:some slack, you are good. Absolutely. We need you. You're perfect as you
Speaker:are. That is perfect. The way you are to
Speaker:pursue health is to maybe let that inner self critic
Speaker:be a little less critical of self because you just show up.
Speaker:Totally. You are already bringing improvement because the way you see the
Speaker:world, the way you can bring improvement to the world in a healthy way, oh
Speaker:my goodness. We need them. Absolutely. And sometimes they're,
Speaker:goodness. We need them. Absolutely. And sometimes, they're their worst.
Speaker:Absolutely. They they don't need it from from anybody else. Yes. So
Speaker:pat on the back for For the Enneagram ones. That's right. Way to
Speaker:go. Okay. Let's go on to the heart feelings. Let's go to the feelings.
Speaker:Okay. Time for the twos. The twos or the
Speaker:helper or the pleaser or the
Speaker:quintessential female in the church, it's really the number
Speaker:that wants to be
Speaker:whatever anybody wants them to be. They wanna be helping and
Speaker:they want to respond to anything you would need,
Speaker:whether that is with actual physical things, whether that's
Speaker:being a listening ear, whether that is being intuitively there for
Speaker:someone even before they even ask it. They wanna be there for you no
Speaker:matter what. And they can feel that. Mhmm. I have twos in
Speaker:my life. They feel what I need before I even know it, and
Speaker:they're, like, right there. There's a coffee on your desk, and you didn't even ask
Speaker:for it. I didn't even know I needed it. Maybe my my space outnest has
Speaker:said, oh, she needs caffeine, but what ice cream? What
Speaker:what would you give them? Okay. So I liked the idea of
Speaker:splitting the banana split. Okay. But I think in general,
Speaker:twos would share with anybody. I think
Speaker:that if they are going for ice cream with you, they're on board
Speaker:for whatever you wanna be on board with. They want to share. They
Speaker:love sharing, and they want to make sure that you're
Speaker:making a comfortable choice for you. And they're probably buying everybody else's ice
Speaker:cream and getting to the till before we do. That's right.
Speaker:Because they wanna be that caring, thoughtful, one step
Speaker:ahead. Yes. Yeah. Like, I'm listening here and
Speaker:saying, hey. I know the difference, but how would you differentiate with a
Speaker:9 who is a harmonizer who does a lot of reading the
Speaker:room. Yes. What would you say a 2 is distinct in? I think
Speaker:it comes down to their motivation. So nines are
Speaker:really motivated to keep the inner peace inside them
Speaker:looking good. So I'm looking for I shouldn't say looking good, but,
Speaker:Resolving the tension. Yes. Keeping all tension neutral.
Speaker:So I'm reading the room for ways that people
Speaker:might be unhappy with each other and with me. Okay. I think
Speaker:twos are definitely trying to make sure that
Speaker:they're good with other people. So they really wanna make sure
Speaker:that when they're reading the room, they're reading from a
Speaker:different perspective. They're reading more the emotions of the room, and they're
Speaker:reading to make sure that whatever energy is coming their way is
Speaker:really positive, and people like them, and people want to be in their
Speaker:space with them. Does that make sense? Yeah. And a little bit of nuance. I
Speaker:appreciate you, identifying that. And is there anything
Speaker:that's in their pursuit of helping others and
Speaker:making everybody in more a positive way and helping them in
Speaker:their distress or even just before they even know they have any needs,
Speaker:is there anything that they lose within themselves in
Speaker:their helping? Well, I think twos and nines are interesting.
Speaker:A twos maybe more than nines. They project their feelings and
Speaker:emotions out rather than accepting
Speaker:how they might be feeling. So I think that
Speaker:twos do an awesome job of reading people's emotions,
Speaker:but then miss their own in some respects. And so what happens
Speaker:when you miss your own emotions? There's such a danger
Speaker:when when you're so good at reading other people, you
Speaker:really want that to be reversed. It's that
Speaker:classic, I'm gonna do the things that I hope will one day come back to
Speaker:me. I could see some resentment building. Yeah. Little bit like a Mary and
Speaker:Martha dynamic of, like, I'm working here in the kitchen. What what are you
Speaker:doing? Why aren't you seeing all the dishes that need to be done? And why
Speaker:aren't you cooking? And why didn't you grab the spice from the market? Yes. And
Speaker:some twos are gonna be better at verbalizing that than others. Uh-huh. So I
Speaker:think resentment is probably putting the nail on the hammer there.
Speaker:Yeah. I know I felt that at times too where I'm sensing things from people,
Speaker:and there isn't that return. Giving, giving, giving. That. Yep.
Speaker:Because everyone in all our different uniquenesses, we
Speaker:get tired. Right? Where we need each other. We're not Absolutely. Be all, end
Speaker:alls. Well, and it I think the two's growth path is
Speaker:understanding that you might be helping beyond what anybody's
Speaker:been asking for or anything. And if you're not prepared to give
Speaker:in a neutral way because you see a need and you wanna help, it
Speaker:ends up turning into resentment before you can fully realize it because
Speaker:it isn't being returned to you. So it could be a strings attached giving Absolutely.
Speaker:If it's not in check. Yes. Yeah. No. That's good. And so where
Speaker:would they shine in community as a helper? Where don't they
Speaker:shine maybe is the question? Because who doesn't love a helper? And that
Speaker:can actually feed them into probably burnout. Yes. I think that the
Speaker:twos shine in so many areas. They're so
Speaker:willing to jump in and help. They're willing to listen, and they're
Speaker:willing to give it that extra thought to get
Speaker:that movement going to help somebody who really needs it. But I think
Speaker:when they finally release themselves from that and when they
Speaker:settle into the fact that in a similar way to the nines, they
Speaker:have needs too, and it gives other people a gift to allow
Speaker:that need to be met, that wholeness that we
Speaker:really need where I'm a whole person with things that are good and things that
Speaker:are bad, and I need to allow all those things to be at work
Speaker:in order for a community to function
Speaker:as a community needs to function. Yeah. And I'm looking
Speaker:forward to doing this episode. I've invited my friend back, and and those of you
Speaker:that have been following along, Michael Hrenick. Doctor Michael, he's gonna be
Speaker:coming back. He's a 2. Yay. He he's a helper, and a lot
Speaker:of psychotherapists are naturally bent to that. And and, of
Speaker:course, you have to work through some healing and growth in that so you can
Speaker:do it in a sustainable way, but we're gonna get into that and hear his
Speaker:story as a psychotherapist doing amazing things. Yeah. Well, they
Speaker:really have space for emotions, which is a really
Speaker:a space that is lacking in some communities. Emotions have a
Speaker:really healthy space, all of them, and twos are really
Speaker:prepared to embrace them. And sometimes in the church, particular, we don't
Speaker:necessarily have space for emotions. We have thinking and
Speaker:doctrines. We may have have sort of the
Speaker:ways we do things, but feelings, why don't we do that?
Speaker:Maybe it's a little more dangerous. Maybe it's not controlled, or maybe we have to
Speaker:go deep. Right. And those are hard things. So we do need good people
Speaker:that can really tap into their their inner emotions.
Speaker:Okay. Moving on to the Achiever, also known as Enneagram 3.
Speaker:Let's talk about that. What ice cream would you give the Achiever?
Speaker:Well, I believe you have neon rainbow down here,
Speaker:and I I would agree with that, but I
Speaker:kinda think the 3 is gonna go for whatever
Speaker:they believe the best one is. So I'm kinda
Speaker:thinking, like, the really big, everything's in
Speaker:it, it's probably better than other people's. Maybe it's the,
Speaker:you know, the fancy, but not in, like, a fancy way. Conversation starter ice
Speaker:cream? Yes. I agree. Yeah. The conversation starter ice cream, whatever is
Speaker:in the big pineapple or in the big whatever Yes. Go big or
Speaker:go home. Okay. So people notice that I ordered this. That's
Speaker:great. This is how we do community. That's right. Okay. So let's
Speaker:let's go in there. I like this. This is a good starting point for the
Speaker:achiever. Tell me a little bit more. So the achiever
Speaker:is the person you call when you need to get all
Speaker:kinds of things done. They will absolutely come and do
Speaker:everything with you. They're hard workers. They're super hard workers,
Speaker:likely to their detriment where they will just work and work and work and work
Speaker:and work and work. So it's interesting the ways
Speaker:that different Enneagram numbers lean into their strengths,
Speaker:like, to work and work and work to the point where
Speaker:you kind of missed the relationships or the
Speaker:emotions or the things that kind of were happening along the way.
Speaker:And possibly to the detriment of the community moving
Speaker:forward to their own achievements, possibly. Well
Speaker:and I think what the 3 really really needs to
Speaker:understand is that we like them just the way they are. Maybe
Speaker:that's the message for the ones and the threes and everybody out there is
Speaker:you don't need to keep doing more and trying more and being the
Speaker:best at things and competing and doing all those things You are enough. Just as
Speaker:you just as you is great. And I think when
Speaker:Enneagram threes really choose to
Speaker:just be themselves and choose to embrace
Speaker:whatever they have accomplished at that
Speaker:point in their life, I think it's a really beautiful thing. Yeah. And I
Speaker:think we will recognize the achievers, the the
Speaker:Enneagram threes in a church sanctuary. They often
Speaker:light up the room. They light up the stage. They they demand the the control,
Speaker:not because they're like, hey. Listen to me. Yep. But they're charismatic.
Speaker:Absolutely. They're funny. They're funny. You better be around them. Absolutely.
Speaker:They're they're the people in the crowd that everybody wants to hear the story from.
Speaker:They demand control, not with trying to so much as they just
Speaker:demand control, and they're okay with the spotlight,
Speaker:and there's a place for that. So where do they shine in in community?
Speaker:Where do you see they shining best in community? Definitely, as leaders,
Speaker:they love to, like what you said, be kind of in
Speaker:the spotlight or the one that's, like, pumping everybody's tires.
Speaker:Right? Like, the one that's kinda going, of course, we can do it. Let's do
Speaker:it. Like, they're really outgoing, really outgoing and
Speaker:wanting to make things look like we're
Speaker:moving in the right direction, like, positive and encouraging. Like that good coach
Speaker:on the sideline just like, you got this. You know? Absolutely. Carrying
Speaker:out of that mindset of of an achiever, what are some of the
Speaker:challenges that one might face if you have that tendency?
Speaker:I think the challenge is in simply slowing down. Like, I think
Speaker:that it is so ingrained in them to,
Speaker:like, move on to the next thing even when the thing hasn't
Speaker:completely been accomplished or been done to the best of your ability.
Speaker:You just wanna keep on going because you're just kind of seeking
Speaker:that next similar to the sevens, I guess, when we eventually
Speaker:get there. But I think when the achiever chooses to slow
Speaker:down and either embrace
Speaker:what other people are bringing to the table as far as leadership and as
Speaker:far as excitement and they choose to
Speaker:be a partner in that instead of the one that
Speaker:is seeking to be at the top of that pyramid, I think that there is
Speaker:some beauty in what that will become.
Speaker:So what I'm hearing, their enoughness is not always to be in the
Speaker:spotlight, but to lead with others for the greater
Speaker:good and that they are enough, that they will naturally
Speaker:attract people around them. And when you were talking about the work, work,
Speaker:work, I actually identify a lot with that. Maybe it's my
Speaker:upbringing, my nurture, and as the minute I my husband calls me a Clydesdale. I
Speaker:just like to work, work, work. Yep. But one of the things that I found
Speaker:when I did some deeper work and what keeps me as more of a
Speaker:challenger by default, not that I don't have some of these
Speaker:achiever, tendencies within me, is that my motivation for
Speaker:work comes from a different place. So that's again, we're coming back
Speaker:to why we use this as a tool. Yep. And it's not just the
Speaker:external what we see that person, so that's why we can't typecast somebody.
Speaker:I love to work, work, work, but it comes more out of a
Speaker:different place of changing systems and seeing a vision. My
Speaker:gut says there's something here that needs to be discovered, and I don't really care
Speaker:if people see me or not, and I can often be an outlier and not
Speaker:matter. It doesn't matter if people see me right or wrong. Right.
Speaker:It's just that I just know in my gut, we've gotta move forward. Do I
Speaker:wanna lead others? Absolutely. Do do I often bring a lot of energy
Speaker:in the room? People often say I do. However, I'm not
Speaker:energized by being liked. Right. And I think with the
Speaker:3, there's obviously a a motivation to
Speaker:be seen as a certain type of person, and
Speaker:I don't think that that is bad. I
Speaker:actually think that probably a lot of us, if we dug deep down, we would
Speaker:have a similar motivation. So I think what I would
Speaker:wish for Enneagram threes that are in community is that they
Speaker:would stop with that exterior need for
Speaker:people to kind of look at them a certain way and that they would just
Speaker:look at themselves and go, I'm good just as I am, and I'm good.
Speaker:I choose me, and I choose my own
Speaker:interests instead of trying to shape myself to
Speaker:become what I say. Your own persona. That's what I think other
Speaker:people want from me. And and god wants us to be our authentic full selves.
Speaker:Yep. Right? And that's part of that self discovery and being okay
Speaker:with being just who we are, not the persona that we idolize or
Speaker:idealize within our minds that would be the better Christian or
Speaker:the better community worker or the better neighbor. This is the the
Speaker:continuous theme through all of these things. Right? Is this idea
Speaker:that whatever you're doing to try and become the person you think everybody wants
Speaker:you to be isn't what we're looking for. We're looking for you to
Speaker:fully embody you, even the parts of you that don't feel
Speaker:great. Right. Because the whole picture and the whole
Speaker:puzzle, whatever metaphor you wanna talk about within a
Speaker:community, is that if you're hiding parts of you, we
Speaker:don't get it all. Mhmm. We need all the parts. We
Speaker:need all the parts that you don't like, that you do like, all the parts
Speaker:you're pretending don't exist in order for that picture to look complete.
Speaker:So good. Because I've experienced that for myself. As I've been
Speaker:okay with my enoughness and I'm becoming okay. We're
Speaker:never a a finished product. Right? But if I bring my whole
Speaker:self, the good, bad, and the ugly, and just say this is who I am,
Speaker:you know what I notice? We create safety to be
Speaker:ourselves and to say, you are enough. I am enough, and we accept
Speaker:the good, the bad, the things that we are not proud of, but we
Speaker:give permission for people to be themselves and that's where
Speaker:community really happens. Yep. Absolutely. This isn't a tool
Speaker:we're describing for self improvement solely that, like, the
Speaker:the latter success to to improve our self help It will not feel like
Speaker:that. It will not feel that. In fact, it just brings like, oh, let's just
Speaker:rip that away. Let's take off the mask, and let's just be who God created
Speaker:us again. That's beautiful. Let's go on to the next one here,
Speaker:number 4, which we've also lovingly called the creative.
Speaker:Yes. What kind of ice cream would you give to the the
Speaker:creative number fours? I love my number fours too. I think the
Speaker:creative is always thinking about things a little differently.
Speaker:They're not wanting to just pick the vanilla and the chocolate,
Speaker:not even the twist. That's a little too common. I think they're really
Speaker:wanting something different, something that
Speaker:is a new thing to try and something that
Speaker:is different than what everybody else is gonna try.
Speaker:And probably very feeling oriented. I'm feeling this.
Speaker:You know where where I went to when I I thought of the 4, the
Speaker:creative? I'm thinking there's no way but going to Marble
Speaker:Slab with them. This isn't an endorsement unless Marble Slab wants to endorse
Speaker:us and be a sponsor, but but they
Speaker:wanted to create the one not on the picture there, but one that
Speaker:they're feeling, that nuance of cherries and chocolate and
Speaker:some sprinkles because they're in that mood Absolutely. And they're
Speaker:gonna go there. Yeah. I I feel like it is maybe mood
Speaker:based. Yes. It's like what I'm feeling in the moment. Yes. And
Speaker:don't try and put me in a box because I might not feel that way
Speaker:the next time you see me. That's right. It's not always the same each
Speaker:time. Right? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. No. I love the 4. Okay. So so let's talk
Speaker:a little bit more about the creative. They have deep moods and
Speaker:feelings. They're often very artistic. Mhmm. Tell me more.
Speaker:I think the fours, if I can be so bold as to say, they
Speaker:might be the most misunderstood, either as a North
Speaker:American culture or a church culture or however wherever we have
Speaker:grown up in society at this point, really deep feelings feel
Speaker:off limits. And so a 4
Speaker:is the perfect example of that full spectrum.
Speaker:Mhmm. They feel them all. They
Speaker:experience the world through that lens. Not
Speaker:only do they feel it themselves, they're empaths,
Speaker:so they feel everybody else's. Absolutely. So a
Speaker:4 is misunderstood in a lot of ways in the way that we
Speaker:prop up thinking as being the most beneficial way of viewing the
Speaker:world and of problem solving. And the
Speaker:emotion and the the time it takes to
Speaker:experience emotion, I think, is really
Speaker:not valued the same way. And so
Speaker:while they say fours typically do struggle with feeling connected
Speaker:to people and feeling really understood, and that creates a lot of frustration,
Speaker:I think that some of their complaint is true, is that we
Speaker:really don't totally get feelings. I mean, as someone who
Speaker:struggles to nail down how they're feeling on a regular basis, I mean, I'm
Speaker:sitting with my feelings wheel trying to, like,
Speaker:figure it out. Sad. You know? Could be add some language. They will have that
Speaker:language. Think that they are just such an invaluable
Speaker:resource as far as, you know, sitting
Speaker:with somebody who needs to feel it welcoming
Speaker:Right. The time it takes, if I can say the unproductivity
Speaker:of the human experience that is feelings. Right.
Speaker:I don't take that time all the time. It's such a gift that
Speaker:they offer to a community that I think
Speaker:is undervalued. And maybe undervalued in the
Speaker:church community often too where we don't necessarily wanna
Speaker:feel the dark feelings because they are okay with dark feelings, deep dark
Speaker:feelings. Those dark clouds, they're okay to go with that,
Speaker:and they can often be the people that people feel safe with
Speaker:with depression, with hard feelings, with doubts,
Speaker:insecurities. They are the empaths in the room that people feel
Speaker:safe with that because they're willing to go there, and we can't lead people where
Speaker:we're not willing to go ourselves. And in the church, those are the ones we
Speaker:need in the community. Those are the ones we need to shine. We need to
Speaker:celebrate that rather than, like, I I don't wanna deal with
Speaker:those feelings. Absolutely. And I I think it does, like, for anybody who
Speaker:feels vulnerable around their feelings. Yeah. It is tricky,
Speaker:but they'll go to a 4. Go to a 4, and, I
Speaker:mean, they are so open to that. They are
Speaker:so open to sitting with you in your emotions. And
Speaker:when you were talking earlier about setting the example for yourself,
Speaker:they do that. They are already feeling and they are
Speaker:welcoming you into their feelings, so accept it. Accept
Speaker:that offer and jump in with them because there
Speaker:is no better Enneagram type to
Speaker:really embrace what that looks like. Well, I have 2
Speaker:Enneagram fours creatives that are gonna be coming on to the
Speaker:episode for I can't wait to introduce our guests, giving their
Speaker:experiences, their stories. It's rich, And they're just dear
Speaker:souls. Wonderful. I can't wait for those episodes. And if I can
Speaker:also say there is actually an Enneagram for, subtype,
Speaker:which we will go into that feels the feelings,
Speaker:but struggles to have those
Speaker:externalized. Mhmm. So if you know inside that you are a
Speaker:deep feeler, but you're more you look more like a 3. You you get
Speaker:work done. You're a really hard worker, and you are more task oriented. Mhmm.
Speaker:There may be some research in there for you because it isn't
Speaker:just as black and white as I'm a feeler. I must be a 4.
Speaker:Right. There might be more to it. And, actually, there's subtypes and and all of
Speaker:that. People can do their their own work, and they can look in the show
Speaker:notes for for some links that could lead them on this path of discovery. Yep.
Speaker:There's nuances for everything. Yes. And it's good to go
Speaker:there. Alright. So we've gone through the feelings. Let's go to the head.
Speaker:Those are the last three that we haven't covered, the last three flavors.
Speaker:Talk to me about the head or thinking types. Okay.
Speaker:So the head and thinking types are really
Speaker:prone to strategy and really prone
Speaker:to leading with their knowledge. So
Speaker:that can bring about all kinds of things. When you're really stuck in your mind,
Speaker:you kinda forget about your body and your feelings. So
Speaker:I've heard the phrase for certain head types. I like to
Speaker:think my feelings. That's not the same thing.
Speaker:So that I mean, maybe some of these types should hang out with force. I
Speaker:don't know. The the next type is the
Speaker:number 5, the investigator. Yep. Let's talk what does
Speaker:an investigator look like? Let's start with this. What kind of ice cream would
Speaker:the investigator be prone to, would you say?
Speaker:So I was thinking there are probably investigators
Speaker:out there that aren't interested in dessert, that are,
Speaker:like they've researched it and they've had their allotted calories for the
Speaker:day, and they're probably good. So I don't know that investigators
Speaker:are always on board for that. Okay. That would be my thought. Well, I was
Speaker:thinking they'd probably first go on consumer reports and look at the best
Speaker:quality ratings scientifically proven in the lab for the
Speaker:best quality ice cream and ratings. So whether it's Haagen
Speaker:Dazs or whatever the the different kind of brands out there, they're
Speaker:gonna do the investigative work first. The research. The research.
Speaker:Even what ice cream shop is the best That's right. Based on reviews
Speaker:Based on reviews or their own experience. Their own experience. Yeah. Yeah. They're
Speaker:gonna do the research. Yep. So when they lead the ice cream bandwagon,
Speaker:you know they they've researched it. They've googled it. They've done the work. That's
Speaker:right. It's not a whim. It will never be a whim. No. You know what
Speaker:you know. Yes. So so let's go a little bit more deeper into the investigator.
Speaker:What makes them tick? So the investigator,
Speaker:I find really fascinating. I actually don't have a
Speaker:lot of investigators in my life, and I think that
Speaker:probably investigators often like to keep to themselves. They
Speaker:love to research. They love knowledge. They love to just know as much
Speaker:as possible about a subject area to the point where
Speaker:I've heard fives kind of say, it would
Speaker:scare me if if you ask me a question I didn't know the answer to
Speaker:it. Right. So if I'm claiming I know something about a subject
Speaker:area and you ask me a question that I can't answer, that
Speaker:may be my greatest fear. That may be the thing that's gonna unravel me.
Speaker:So I would imagine, though, at least to the fives in my knowledge, in
Speaker:my circles, that rather than pouncing them with an
Speaker:idea or saying, hey. Let's do this in the community. Let's plant the
Speaker:seed. Let them do the research. They're gonna actually come back with a a better,
Speaker:more understood, informed way of moving
Speaker:forward in the community or within the church. They're they're gonna do their
Speaker:research. Again, still on board for the North Star if you're
Speaker:friends with them or you're you're working together, but they're gonna do the work.
Speaker:They're not gonna just say things on a whim to be liked No. You can
Speaker:trust them. To be known Absolutely. Or anything else, but they they really
Speaker:seek knowledge and wisdom. Yes. I love that. Absolutely.
Speaker:I think they're also the number that is
Speaker:going to show us how to have healthy boundaries.
Speaker:Mhmm. I think a 5 is really good
Speaker:at knowing where their limits are. Mhmm. And that can be
Speaker:to the detriment of the people that are with them that wanna spend more time
Speaker:with them, but the 5 has kind of reached their limit. Yeah. But I think
Speaker:It's a little factual. Like, this is it. And I think as someone who grew
Speaker:up in a context where boundaries were we weren't sure if we were supposed to
Speaker:have them or not, I think a 5 is able to
Speaker:say, I think I've hit my limit, and I'm gonna go home now. I need
Speaker:some alone time. I could see where an investigator would be hard to be
Speaker:seen as caring, but it comes across as caring because
Speaker:it's maybe not as relational as some. Right. And I'm not saying that
Speaker:they're introverts necessarily. They often are. Or that they
Speaker:don't like people. They mostly do. However, they could be misunderstood
Speaker:I
Speaker:community? Well, I think, actually, fives are so interesting
Speaker:because, from what I've heard, they have very clearly defined
Speaker:circles. And I think for a lot of us, we feel so
Speaker:pressured to maintain very random
Speaker:social connections. Mhmm. I mean, that's fine, but I don't
Speaker:know that that's where those deep connections really come from. And
Speaker:fives really give us the example of
Speaker:knowing who the few people that you actually have time for, and you
Speaker:can really develop those deep connections with, and they
Speaker:prioritize the people that are in their circle.
Speaker:I had a staff member one summer work with us, and she was
Speaker:investigator at 5, and we had her in the perfect job of research.
Speaker:She lit up when she could be by herself. We just gave her a task,
Speaker:and she could do a spreadsheet and come up with all the facts and numbers.
Speaker:She was not swayed by all the nuances that we might
Speaker:get the wrong idea from. She could cut through some of the facades
Speaker:of things and just look for the facts, and she was sort of like a
Speaker:gold digger. Right. Finding the gold that we needed that was
Speaker:actually relevant, and she was less subjective
Speaker:and more objective. And we needed objectivity when we're doing our
Speaker:research. And so on its own, it may not bring on
Speaker:all the complexities that we were looking at, but it is such a valuable
Speaker:piece to a community, to a work team, to a church when we have
Speaker:those persons in community, like all the numbers. I
Speaker:mean, speaking again about, like, the way we've been socialized, I mean,
Speaker:church is a social space. Communities are hugely social
Speaker:spaces. That isn't for everybody, and that isn't the
Speaker:best way to do everything. Right. So the idea that you actually
Speaker:value alone time and that you need alone time, we all do. It's
Speaker:just that there's such a pressure to avoid it
Speaker:or a pressure to seek people out to
Speaker:fill something that, you know, might be actually better filled when you're
Speaker:alone. Right. Spending some time with your own thoughts and doing some reflection.
Speaker:Yeah. Alone time, even Jesus had alone time. That's right. And it's okay.
Speaker:Right? That's right. He he had that balance of when he was with people and
Speaker:when he wasn't. Yeah. That's right. Let's go on to the next one, the loyalist,
Speaker:also known as the Enneagram number 6. Oh, I love the sixes
Speaker:in my life. They are the salt and pepper to to my
Speaker:day because I don't think like them at all, and but I love them dearly,
Speaker:and I need them. I was thinking a favorite ice cream for the
Speaker:loyalist would be gluten free, dairy free,
Speaker:nut free frozen treat, because they're uber
Speaker:cautious. I would the the people in my life, they wanna make sure that
Speaker:nothing sets anybody off, themselves or others, so they're
Speaker:gonna be on the cautionary side to make sure the whole
Speaker:group is safe. They keep people alive. Absolutely.
Speaker:What kind of ice cream would you give the loyalist? Well, I was thinking
Speaker:about my friend who's a loyalist,
Speaker:and I think that whatever she would choose, it would be very a very
Speaker:thoughtful choice. She will not be choosing something
Speaker:just because, and she will not be choosing something because everybody else is doing
Speaker:it. I actually think she puts a lot of effort into
Speaker:her ice cream choices.
Speaker:They do a lot of thinking and maybe overthinking. Yes. Yeah. I
Speaker:have you ever traveled with a with a loyalist? Not
Speaker:recently. They think of everything. They've got hangers. Perfect. I you
Speaker:know who I'm talking about out there. They they have an
Speaker:iron. They've got all the things in case of emergency.
Speaker:They're extra uber prepared, not only for them, but for everybody in
Speaker:Literally everybody else. Yeah. Yeah. They've thought of it. They've thought of
Speaker:the what ifs. Yes. And they're always the ones with the checklist
Speaker:and and able to think project ahead. To me, it's catastrophizing,
Speaker:but to them, they're saving my life, and both are true. You
Speaker:never know. That's right. So tell me a little bit. What do we mean by
Speaker:loyalist? The loyalist means that
Speaker:they really, really value the closest that relationship brings
Speaker:and that they I guess, to a fault in that they're
Speaker:incredibly connected to people even when that connection has
Speaker:shifted. So I think the loyalist is
Speaker:one of those people that their secret motivation is to keep themselves safe
Speaker:and secure. But when it's in its health,
Speaker:it's this beautiful relationship
Speaker:where they're continually
Speaker:working towards the connection. And I think it's a
Speaker:beautiful thing. So where would the loyalist shine in community? Where are
Speaker:they at their greatest way of I I know I'm overgeneralizing, but where
Speaker:do you see a loyalist, a number 6, shine
Speaker:in a community context? I think the loyalist
Speaker:has so many places where they shine in a community. They're working
Speaker:for the common good, whether that is from a place of
Speaker:fear or preparation. I mean, they're always working.
Speaker:I think they're either in their mind or otherwise. They're always working towards
Speaker:the ways that the whole community can feel safe. Physically,
Speaker:emotionally, all the things. Always the gap filler. Yes. They can always see
Speaker:those spots. Absolutely. Different than the helper. Yeah. But in a in a way, they
Speaker:can project what could happen, and they're already there with the umbrella because
Speaker:they they pack that for you. That's right. They pack that already. Yes.
Speaker:This is another number where one of the subtypes is quite
Speaker:different. Mhmm. So the 6 kind of exemplifies
Speaker:in their subtypes those fear responses. So fight,
Speaker:flight, fawn. Yep. So if you are somebody
Speaker:who isn't totally sure if this maybe fits for you, I would do
Speaker:a little bit more research into it because there is a subtype of the
Speaker:6 that looks a lot 8 ish Uh-huh. Where they go up against the
Speaker:authorities, and they kind of respond to that fear in
Speaker:a completely different way than what you would expect. Yeah. No. That's
Speaker:a good place to do a bit of research. Yeah. Well, we love our
Speaker:loyalists. We need them. So grateful. And we're finally to
Speaker:our last flavor, our natural
Speaker:flavor. The enthusiast, also known as the Enneagram
Speaker:7, what ice cream would you give the enthusiast? This is gonna be a fun
Speaker:one, I think. I think the enthusiast picks a different ice
Speaker:cream every single time that they go for ice cream. Because that would be fun.
Speaker:Yes. I think they're always trying something new every single
Speaker:time. And they're probably always adding whipped cream and sprinkles Maybe.
Speaker:Because that would always be fun. My dad get too much. Is an enthusiast,
Speaker:and he always puts sprinkles on everything.
Speaker:Oh, so there we go. Yes. No. He can never have too much fun. That's
Speaker:right. So whatever you have that is fun, probably like a
Speaker:rainbow ice cream or bubble gum or, like Bubble gum was my next
Speaker:thought. You know? Like, whatever would be fun. Yes. They're not the
Speaker:Bordeaux cherries. No. And they're not getting the cookies and cream.
Speaker:No. Those are too too too boring. It's too boring. Yes. Too
Speaker:predictable. Not the vanilla. No. Yeah. It'll be fun.
Speaker:It'll have whipped cream, sprinkles, and whatever else you throw. Gummy
Speaker:worms. Yeah. Gummy worms would be great, I think. Yeah. Yeah. A little pop of
Speaker:flavor. Yeah. The more, the better. That's right. Gonna douse it. They're probably gonna
Speaker:have more toppings than ice cream. So they're at the
Speaker:9 Sunday bar, and they took all the toppings.
Speaker:That's right. That are that are an option. And they are the life of the
Speaker:party. Let's talk about we all need the enthusiasts in our life. But
Speaker:Absolutely. What else can you tell us about them? The enthusiast is,
Speaker:like, really fun, like what we've been saying. They are the first
Speaker:person up for an adventure. I mean, yes, they're avoiding some of the
Speaker:darker sad things, but sometimes we need that. They wanna just
Speaker:embrace life. I think it's a beautiful thing. They just want to
Speaker:see what life can offer and try as many things as they
Speaker:possibly can. And I know sevens in my life
Speaker:that are the innovators. They see what's
Speaker:possible beyond what other people are seeing, what's not.
Speaker:They're innovators often. I'm not saying everybody, but they they're entrepreneurs.
Speaker:They're the dreamers. Absolutely. My my dad has a dream and then he
Speaker:just does it. It isn't even a question of whether it's gonna happen.
Speaker:He wanted to build a performing arts studio, so he did.
Speaker:He just did it. Because my dog. Exactly. And they can make it
Speaker:happen. Yeah. Well, I have a very special guest coming on for this one.
Speaker:I can't wait to introduce them to everybody. He's actually the creator,
Speaker:Adrian Lewis. He's the creator of the care portal, the the technology that
Speaker:we are using across Canada to connect children and
Speaker:families in hard places with the community and to create that
Speaker:ecosystem. He's a dreamer. He's a smart guy, and he lights
Speaker:up the room. Yes. So much fun. Now I can see so many positive
Speaker:things. Can there possibly be anything that is challenging
Speaker:for the enthusiast when they're interacting with
Speaker:community? Well, I think that the enthusiast, because of their
Speaker:need to do the next, next, next next next next is they leave a
Speaker:little bit of undone in their wake. And so people around. They
Speaker:yeah. You do. And I think the dreamer is only
Speaker:as good as how they create that dream and make that dream a
Speaker:reality. So the living in the clouds is
Speaker:is a part of the puzzle, but it isn't the complete
Speaker:picture of what's going on. So I think for a 7,
Speaker:if they can embrace the fact that there
Speaker:are other parts of the human experience that are an adventure
Speaker:even though they feel icky sometimes to start them, I think that
Speaker:is the key for moving those adventurers forward is for
Speaker:them to start embracing the inner world that is actually an adventure
Speaker:in a completely different direction. That's a hard vulnerable space
Speaker:for for a 7. Yep. But if that was reframed,
Speaker:if that was their adventure that they were tackling, if they could know
Speaker:that their inner world isn't gonna kill them and their inner world isn't
Speaker:gonna keep them in that darkness forever, that the dreams are still
Speaker:happening and that the whole experience of life isn't
Speaker:going away just because they're taking a moment to look at something else.
Speaker:Yeah. I think there's just so much beauty in the
Speaker:full experience. Yeah. No. I can take a lot out of that because while I'm
Speaker:a double dark chocolate ice cream lover Yes. I dip my spoon a
Speaker:lot into the sprinkles. I I lean heavily towards the
Speaker:7, the enthusiast. I see what's possible, but
Speaker:then those are the things that I've been learning about myself to listen
Speaker:in, to lean into the others around us, to understand the
Speaker:realities, but also bring that enthusiasm to others because they need my
Speaker:optimism as well. Yeah. Well and, I mean, it's that that double
Speaker:edged sword again where Mhmm. The dreams aren't gonna
Speaker:continue to look as dreamy when you haven't anchored them
Speaker:in that humanity. Like, there is that need for that center
Speaker:Mhmm. In order for those dreams to grow even bigger.
Speaker:Wow. Yeah. I think it's that both and system.
Speaker:Well, we've covered all of the flavors. Good job, Tamara. I'm
Speaker:so excited that you are launching this enneagram aware
Speaker:dotca is the website, so I'm gonna encourage people to to go to
Speaker:your website. And I know you're diving deep into,
Speaker:more studies, and you're gonna develop the services that you're doing. I'm
Speaker:just so excited for you. Thank you. And I'm so appreciative of the work you
Speaker:you've done here with us today, and you've really set the stage for
Speaker:the upcoming nine episodes. I'm so excited for what we're gonna learn
Speaker:through people's stories. Oh, that's gonna be awesome. I can't wait to hear the rest
Speaker:of the episodes. I think we should go have ice cream. I
Speaker:Thank you for joining another conversation on Journey with Care, where
Speaker:we inspire curious Canadians on their path of faith and
Speaker:living life with purpose in community. Journey with Care is an
Speaker:initiative of Care Impact, a Canadian charity dedicated to
Speaker:connecting and equipping the whole church to journey well in community.
Speaker:You can visit their website at careimpact. Ca or visit journey with
Speaker:care. Ca to get more information on weekly episodes, Journey
Speaker:with Prayer, and details about our upcoming events and meetups.
Speaker:You can also leave us a message, share your thoughts, and connect with like
Speaker:minded individuals who are on their own journeys of faith and purpose.
Speaker:Thank you for sharing this podcast and helping these stories reach the community. Together, we
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