Transcripts
You're listening to the Tracking Wisdom Podcast, exploring the universal
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truths that we see woven through culture,
consciousness, and the human experience.
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Ryan: Morning everybody, and
welcome back to another episode
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of the Tracking Wisdom Podcast.
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I'm Ryan.
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Peter: I'm Peter.
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Ryan: Today we're discussing a short clip
from Rupert Spira's channel titled Why Am
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I Not Excited About Non-Duality Anymore?
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Peter and I haven't watched this
yet, so we're gonna listen to the
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clip together, and then we'll respond
with our reactions and reflections.
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Here we go
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Michael: I feel that I am at a,
a empty point in my life and in
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my understanding of the teaching.
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And I'm sitting here hearing the teaching,
being in the meditation, everything
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understood, but nothing touches me.
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And it's not-- It's just
like everything was empty.
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And I feel maybe it has to do with
age or something that I don't know.
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So maybe it's this thing that
the old is not here anymore,
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but the new not here yet.
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And I'm sure maybe also, other
people might have experienced that
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this wave movement of interest and
understanding and enthusiasm also,
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and also joy to be in meditation.
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You know, so this started
to, yeah, meditating.
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Why not?
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But also, why?
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So, and I wanted to know if you have
any advice that you might give me.
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Rupert: Michael, are you
at peace in yourself?
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In general- Right … throughout
your day- I would say so … do,
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do you feel, are you at peace?
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Are, are you at rest?
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Michael: I think so.
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I mean, I'm here only
for loving and helping.
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Also, not that I have to think about it.
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Rupert: Yeah
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… but the reason I ask if you're, if you're
at peace most of the time i- is that
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it's true that when we first hear about,
I, and I know you've been familiar with
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the, the non-dual understanding for,
for many years, but when we first hear
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about non-dual, it, it's so exciting.
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It's so elating.
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We have, every day some
marvelous new breakthrough.
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So to begin with, we often experience this
kind of heightened sense of, understanding
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and appreciation and enthusiasm.
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And because it's in contrast with the old
life of anxiety and sorrow, and suddenly
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now there are these periods where there's
no sorrow, and there's no anxiety.
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So, and it's elating.
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It's exciting.
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You're full of enthusiasm.
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You're talking about it all the time.
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You're reading about it all the time.
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You're watching YouTube, going
to retreats, and it's exciting.
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But after a while, it
becomes your natural state.
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Michael: It is like this.
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Rupert: Um, You don't talk
about it all the time.
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You don't think about it all the time.
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You're not elated about it all the time.
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It's not a special experience
because you've kind of lost,
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almost lost the memory of the old
sorrow and conflict and anxiety.
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So you no longer have that
experience to contrast it with.
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It's just your natural-
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Michael: Wow
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… Rupert: ease of being.
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It's not, it's not bliss.
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It's peace.
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Or quiet joy, not, not ecstatic joy.
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There mo- there may be moments of,
of exuber- But it, it's … That's
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why I often refer to more and more
these days as a, I refer to quiet joy-
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Michael: Mm
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Rupert: rather than happiness.
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Sometimes happiness feels like something
bubbly and elated and, ju- just quiet joy.
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E- even that i- is, is too much.
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Just … That's why I asked
you if you were at peace, not,
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not whether you were happy.
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Michael: I am at peace.
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Rupert: Yes.
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in a way, Life it's just gone back
to simplicity- Yeah … and peace.
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Michael: Now, while you talk, this is
very helpful what you're telling me.
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Thank you.
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Ryan: I think I
misunderstood the thumbnail.
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I thought the clip was gonna be,
um, Rupert explaining why he was no
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longer excited about non-duality.
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Peter: I was gonna say it was
much more intriguing when it was
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Rupert asking the question, but in
fact he did answer the question.
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I mean, w- we, I, I think that we s-
I wanted to start the video because
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I wanted to hear why Rupert said he-
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Ryan: Right
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Peter: was not excited.
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But then he did, ultimately he did say
I'm not excited anymore, and here's why.
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Because it's just so-
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Ryan: Normal
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… Peter: commonplace, normal.
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Ryan: Yeah.
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Peter: Yeah.
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Ryan: What's your experience with that?
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Peter: Um-
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I can easily be wound
up by the right contact.
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Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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Peter: Like, if someone is curious
about it, I will get really excited.
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I feel like I'm probably not where
they're talking about, but I think by and
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large, I'm much more relaxed about it-
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Ryan: Mm
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… Peter: than I was, say
for the first year or so.
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Ryan: Yeah.
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Peter: I mean, at the
beginning I was really thinking
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about, "Oh, how can I move?"
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You know?
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" How can I progress?"
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And I've only talked about progressing
recently in the context of not
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being interested in progressing.
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Ryan: Right.
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Yeah, I feel like
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I can appreciate this a bit.
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It's I think I've shared this before,
but I might as well share it again.
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I enjoy our work, I guess
to Rupert's point, right?
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He thinks about it when he's on retreat-
Mm … or somebody asks a question.
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But otherwise, he doesn't think about it.
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I really don't think about it.
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And not only do I not think about it,
often what I was finding was when we
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were, or I was, whatever, consuming a lot-
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Peter: Mm-hmm
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… Ryan: it was actually
distracting from the experience.
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Like, it almost got too in the
head that I was starting to lose
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contact with the experience.
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I appreciated Rupert's description
of joy and happiness because that's a
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repeated comment of mine is this idea
of elation in contrast to the idea
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of peace, or quiet joy as he put it.
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Peter: Mm-hmm.
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Ryan: And he even said even
that's a little too much, right?
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So like this, this calm and peace
is what I experience and pursue,
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and happiness or elation oftentimes
I experience as like an anxiety.
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It's overstimulating to me.
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Peter: So this is interesting
to me, 'cause y- you're touching
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on my day-to-day experience.
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Because what I was gonna do is I was
just about to walk back a little bit,
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from what I said about it being normal,
compared to when I first experienced it.
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I think compared to what
you were describing, I think
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I'm not quite that far.
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Ryan: Hmm.
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Peter: And, like I still
get into, I wouldn't call it
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ecstasy … I get into excited joy.
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Ryan: Mm.
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Peter: Because I find myself in
conditioned reactivity experience
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so often, that I'm like, "Ugh,
oh, this is really suffering.
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I'm still suffering."
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Ryan: Mm.
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Peter: "Where is the non-suffering?"
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And then I find my way back.
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And so, you know, I kind of say I
don't really meditate anymore…
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except in groups.
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Like I'll, I'll go to a group and there's
like a five-minute or t- 15-minute
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meditation or something like that, which
is just part of the gathering, right?
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And then the rest of it is
verbally shared experience.
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Or the GAE, you know, I do that for
90 minutes once or twice a week.
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But that's it.
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And to me, that's not that much.
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Like, you know, if you … For me,
if I'm not meditating every day, I'm
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kind of like, "Yeah, I'm not really-
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Ryan: Mm
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… Peter: in formal practice anymore."
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You know?
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But what I have instead, I think, is
what you might call living meditation or-
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Ryan: Mm-hmm
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… Peter: it's like, "Oh,
why am I meditating?
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Because I'm trying to find my
way back to peace because I can
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recognize that I'm suffering."
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Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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Peter: And so I'm walking myself
home, and kind of re-exploring
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what it's like to shift from
conditioned reactivity back to peace.
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Ryan: Mm.
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Peter: And along the way I
do a variety of practices.
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It's kind of like whatever comes
to me- … is what the m- you know,
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it could be, could be body scan, it
could be breathing, but it's never
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like, oh, 15 minutes of breathing.
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It's just like just a touch to remind
me, oh, I don't need to suffer.
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Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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Peter: So I guess to say, the
non-duality isn't so familiar
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that I'm constantly there and not-
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Ryan: Mm-hmm
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… Peter: not interested and I
don't get excited about it.
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But at the same time It's not something
that I elaborate on a lot to myself.
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Ryan: Right
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… I don't think about it
and I don't talk about it.
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But when there is somebody who has a bit
of that recognition and is interested
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in talking about it, I do enjoy
engaging in some of that conversation.
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But that's rare.
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Like, I feel like you have more
opportunities with that than I do.
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Peter: Mm-hmm.
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Ryan: Other than, you
know, when we're talking.
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Yeah, I'm just trying to, focus
back on like the natural state.
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Meaning, before we really started
getting deep into these conversations
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a couple years ago, I had an
organic practice experience.
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And then, when we came into contact
with, say, Jeffrey Martin's work
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and understanding a vernacular and
a system behind to help describe and
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understand the experience a little bit.
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Peter: Mm-hmm.
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Ryan: I think that was useful
in understanding the experience.
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And I do think that going down
some of that more intellectual
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stuff sorta distracted me a
little bit from the organic.
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And I don't regret it, I don't
think it was a mistake at all.
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Peter: Mm-hmm
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. Ryan: And so now I'm trying to allow
myself to get back into the connection
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with the natural being-ness that
had organically developed prior.
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Peter: I find a lot of contextual clues
or environmental cues, I should say, not
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clues, are extremely evocative for me now.
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Like, being in the studio, talking to
you is like, that's all I do here, right?
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And so it's very easy for me to
settle in and be deep with…
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I mean, we don't pract- Mm-hmm We, we
don't, it's not like we sit down before
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we get on the mic- … and like, "Let's
have a silent, you know, moment."
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You know, I'm just here, like right now.
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And, and talking about the experience
is very, very deep practice for me.
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Ryan: Right.
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Peter: So I'm feeling like right now
very, very tender and open and vulnerable.
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And it's, it's what to
me is very familiar.
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It, it's, it's very much the
quality of going deep, like
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working with someone else.
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But this is the thing, is that it's
become a very social thing for me.
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Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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Peter: I rarely am just by
myself and bring myself deep.
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Is this not…
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Is it rare?
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It's not that rare.
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I mean, I'm sure compared to
most people it's not rare at all.
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But, um, it's, it's weird 'cause
I, in a way I'm comparing it
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to when I had daily practice.
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Ryan: Okay.
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Peter: But when I had daily
practice, I hadn't really progressed-
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Ryan: Right
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… Peter: to a kind of awakening experience.
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Yeah, so I'm kind of, have this kinda
confused view of what is normal for me.
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Ryan: Mm.
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Peter: Or what is rare or frequent.
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Ryan: Right.
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Peter: And it's like, wait,
isn't this guy a teacher?
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Like, you know?
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But, that, that's something that
I've also come across with teachers
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is how much teachers suffer.
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Ryan: Mm.
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Peter: I mean, I, I really do feel
like Good teachers are bodhisattvas.
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Ryan: Hmm.
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Peter: In other words, they are,
enlightened beings who continue
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to go through suffering for the
sake of helping, helping others.
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Ryan: Right.
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Peter: It's not that.
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You're not seeking out suffering.
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It's that you're willing to experience
the suffering, and you see the value
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in having the experience because
you recognize how helpful that can
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be to the next person you talk to.
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Ryan: Hmm.
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Peter: So first of all, I believe in
that as a practice personally, but
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I'm also the beneficiary of that from
teachers who are willing to be open
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and vulnerable about their, their own
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suffering.
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And it's not like, "Oh, I used to suffer,"
you know, "before I w- got awakened."
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It's like, no, I know every day I can
go to the grocery store and be impatient
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with people, like, "Get out of my way."
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I mean, I'm not saying it, but- … you're
definitely having that experience of like,
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"Why are you, these people bothering me?"
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Because there's a way of accessing
compassion that comes through
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being with your own suffering.
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Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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Peter: I'm not saying it's better,
'cause I don't think that's true at all.
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You can also not really suffer very much.
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You can also be more blissful and
then come into contact with suffering,
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and the compassion will be there.
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Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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Peter: I think to be able to talk
specifically about this experience.
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You know, like, "This
happened to me last week."
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Right.
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Not like, "Oh, yeah, I remember
when I used to be like that."
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No, no, no, no, no.
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You know, right?
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And, and yet, and still model the
immediate presence of like, "Yeah,
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right now I'm present for you.
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Right now I am at peace, or right
now y- you can bring anything to me.
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It is not triggering for me.
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It is not too much for me."
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Right?
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So what am I saying about that?
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I see for me the value in it.
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Um, I'm … I, I basically know that
I have a lot of shadow work to do.
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I have a lot of work with the
conditioning to do, and really
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experiencing it is a very big part of it.
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And so I appreciate that, and I'm not,
feeling sorry for myself and like, "Oh
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my God, how much more work do I have
to do until I stop experiencing this?"
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Which was absolutely the way I was
four years ago, three years ago, right?
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Ryan: Right.
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Yeah.
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Peter: When I was, deep in practice
and like, "This isn't working," right?
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Like, I believed in it, and I was
committed to it, the practice.
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Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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Peter: But there were times
when … it was just like, " Why am I-"
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Ryan: Still suffering.
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Peter: "How long is it gonna be?"
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Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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Peter: You know?
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And then it comes up.
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I mean, I've definitely had
this conversation in a group of,
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"Yeah, what I'm wondering right
now is when does suffering stop?"
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And then coming round to, well, it's okay.
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It's just part of the experience
because we're still incarnated.
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Ryan: Right.
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Peter: So there's still
suffering, and, and it's fine.
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And the, the return to
equanimity versus the "why me?"
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Ryan: Right.
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Peter: And so I guess what I'm saying is
it's that kind of sharing is so helpful.
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I mean, it's helpful when
I hear peers share that.
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And I ha- I have peers who I consider
so much more spacious than me, so
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much more graceful than I am, and,
and then I, I see them suffering.
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Ryan: Yeah.
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Peter: You know?
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And it's, like, really meaningful.
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And it's not, it's not a
si- schaden- schadenfreude.
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It's not like, "Oh, well, at
least they're suffering too."
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You know?
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It's like a, "Oh, I guess
they're not so much … You know,
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I'm not so far behind them."
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It's not that.
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It's, coming back into contact with the
compassion towards the suffering, and then
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also the recognition of the connectedness
and, and the community and the sameness-
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Ryan: Mm
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Peter: And , I'm hearing this come
back to me as kind of sounding
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like an attachment to suffering.
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Like, "oh, suffering's good.
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" And it's it's not that.
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It's just an appreciation
for the experience.
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Ryan: Yeah
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Peter: Anyway.
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Well, that was interesting.
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I hope that's helpful to someone.
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Ryan: Indeed.
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All right.
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We'll talk to you next time.
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Peter: All right.
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Take care.
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Thanks.
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Ryan: Bye.
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Peter: Bye-bye.
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Thank you for listening to
the Tracking Wisdom podcast.
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Join us next time as we
continue the discussion.
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Don't forget to follow us on
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00:17:13,932 --> 00:17:18,281
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