In this episode, we dive into the innovative world of lactation pods with Sascha Meyer, Co-founder and Chief Experience Officer of Mamava. We talk about how Sascha and her co-founder developed the category of lactation pods that are changing the landscape for breastfeeding parents in public places and workspaces. Learn about the challenges that sparked the inception of these pods, the thoughtful design elements that make them both functional and inviting, and how Mamava is advocating for better breastfeeding policies. We also talk about how to develop a family-friendly work culture, whether it's in a remote business or manufacturing. Whether you’re a working parent, an employer looking to support your workforce, or just curious about the intersection of design and social good, this episode is packed with valuable insights.

Connect with today's guest:

www.mamava.com

Sasha's podcast: www.mamava.com/the-bodacious-optimist-podcast

Sascha Mayer is a recognized expert on lactation space design, family-friendly workplace policies, and social entrepreneurial leadership. A seasoned brand strategist, she has worked with Levi’s, Lululemon, Nike Women, and Seventh Generation. When she’s not designing new ways to support breastfeeding parents, she’s gardening and tending her chickens.

Connect with us at:

KortneyRoss.com

LinkedIn: @kortneyross

Instagram: @nextgenworkculture

Facebook: @nextgenworkculture

Welcome to the NextGen Work Culture podcast, where leaders learn

to support working parents. Because being a family friendly

business isn't just a nice to have anymore. It's

essential for businesses that want to stay competitive, and it is

critical for the next generation and those who are raising them. I'm

your host, Courtney Ross, and I am so glad that you're here.

Hello and welcome back to the NextGen work culture. Today

I am here with Sasha Meyer of

Mamava, and I am super excited to talk to her about

breastfeeding support and their really cool mama ma pods.

So, Sasha, thank you for being here. Marty, thank you for having

me. So, for people who may not know. You, could you give

us just a. Little bit about who you are and what you do? Great.

Yeah. I am the co founder, and now I am

the chief experience officer of mama law. And most

people know about our lactation pods because they've

seen us in airports and they are the beautiful kind

of curved. Often they have really fun graphics on them.

Spaces specifically designed for parents

to use, to primarily use a breast pump or to

breastfeed in privacy if they choosE. We are based in

BUrlington, Vermont. We basically created the

category, and we also have a

manufacturing facility in VeRMONt, about 2 hours

south of BUrlington. So we are a

business that is changing culture around breastfeeding,

but also we're a manufacturing business, which is a great point of pride for

me. Yeah, that is so awesome. So I am

guessing that this started from a Personal Pain

point. I find that most of these

organizations and companies like yours have started with a mom who

had a struggle. So tell us that Origin story.

Why did you decide to design a lactation pod when that didn't even

exist? Yeah. So it absolutely came from

my personal experience and then observation. I work

for a design studio here in Burlington, and most of our

clients were not in Vermont. And Vermont is not an

easy place to get to. So we spent a lot of time on planes

getting back and forth. And I loved my

job. I had a supportive employer. I also knew

the importance of breastfeeding and that kind of head

start that it can give for the health of your

child, but also more so even for maternal health.

Actually, the implications for breastfeeding and

maternal health are. Have a stronger rationale than even

for the child. So wanted to do that.

When I went back to work, I constantly found myself,

you know, expressing milk in substandard locations,

mostly, you know, bathroom. It's like a, you have to attach yourself to

this mechanical apparatus you're setting up, you know, chargers or

plugging something in, and you have bottles and flanges and you're half

naked. And so it was very demoralizing. I was

able to, you know, continue on because I did have the support of my

husband and my colleague. ColleaGues, but it was not

eaSy. And as I grew away from

that breastfeeding phase, continue to see the problem

surface with my younger colleagues. My sister

had kids ten years after I did, and SHe

was still dealing with the same, you know,

inequities around this issue. And

coming from a design world, we believed that we could

change in culture and solve real world

problems through human centered design. So we

set our minds to solving that and came up with a, you know, it's a

long story how we actually got to where we got our first

unit into our local airport, but it came from

that personal challenge and a lot

of other folks who believed in solving it and had

experienced it themselves or were partners of breastfeeding women.

So that's where it came from. Yeah. So as you

were designing the pods, I meaN, I've SEen several of

them out in the wild, and THEy're. They

really are beautiful. So as designing them, I wonder, like, how

much thought and strategy really went into how they looked

on the outside. As much as, you know, what you're providing for the mom on

the inside. It was really important to us

to make it a beautiful design object that started a

conversation. So we didn't

want for THem to be misconstrued as a place to hide

breastfeeding. It was really about celebrating it and

offering a. A space

that accommodated it and helped you actually meet your

breastfeeding goals versus, like, hiding something away.

So the gesture of the design and, like, the curved walls that

you've. Maybe you've read some of the design

literature around how curves and circular things

give you joy. So that was really deliberate. They also

create more of an expansive space when you are in a curved,

walled space. But it was similar with

our logo. So we came up with a logo that we

call the happy breasts logo. It's like a smiley face that also looks like

breasts. And it was really about, you know, being

deliberate about what it was, that it didn't look like anything else.

So, to be honest with you, in some of our prototyping,

we had some ideas that looked a lot like a porta potty,

and we definitely didn't want to make that connection. So

it was important that it stood out, didn't look like something else,

and communicated kind of this bodacious, joyous

idea around the act, because I think so many parents

feel like, particularly when they go back to work, breastfeeding

or humping is such a drag. So we wanted to, like,

reposition it again to be about, like, a celebration

of this time in your life. That

is wonderful. And I love hearing how

purposeful that was because, like I said, I've seen many of them and they

really are beautiful, but when you see them, it's also like, whoa, what is that?

You know, if you're not SOmeBodY who has actually used them or knows what they

are. So it makes you think about it and, you know, wonder and

maybe become a little bit more informed of breastfeeding and why it

is difficult for the mom when she's traveling or in all these different

locations. I've also noticed that they seem to be

sort of branded for the location where they are.

Like, I recently went back to my alma mater, my

college, for an alumni event, and I was a music

major, so I was in the music building to do an alumni band,

and they have a mamava pod up on the second story,

or, you know, right outside of the balcony area. And I

was so excited to find a mama vapod with my

alumni, you know, my alma mater's mascot on it.

What school was it? Austin P in Tennessee.

Oh, nice. Our mascot is. The mascot is a governor,

which is not actually a very beautiful

picture. So actually, I took a picture of me with the pod, was like, so

excited, posted it on social. So then someone commented like, why is there this

picture of a big, ugly guy on a lactation pod? I'm like, well, you would

understand if you went to college there. Oh, you have to totally send

that. So when we can we share this out? That will be

awesome. Yeah, yeah. Corny picture of

me. Like, really excited to find it because, of course, that wasn't there when I

was going to school there ten years ago. Yeah. So, you know, this is not

really. This is not necessarily a business podcast, but, I mean, it is.

So part of that has to do with where we came from in the design

world. One of our anchor accounts was Burton snowboards. So we're very

familiar with having a canvas that you could create

graphics on and refresh year over

year. And the original strategy, perhaps, to

get these units placed was about

using it as kind of out of Home advertising. So guess

what, airport. You don't have to lay any money out for this. We're going to

get 7th generation to wrap this pod, and that

way their brand, which very much aligns with our mission, will be

in the world, and the problem is solved as far as of the

facility. In the end, that became a little bit too cumbersome

and it changed more to just using the pods as a wonderful canvas

for the academic institution or the sports

team or a healthcare facility,

but that was part of it too. Is that again, you're not hiding

away this thing, you're actually celebrating it. And these early sponsors

or the facilities that put them in get to have

THeir messaging on it to show THeir affiliation

with support for breastfeeding. Yeah, I think that's wonderful.

Another one I, I saw recently was at an aquarium. It was so beautiful

with all of the fish and stuff on it. Yeah, I just,

I love how beautiful they are on the outside. But I do wonder,

what do they look like on the inside? What is. What is making them

functional? Sure. So, and I think that's the key big

differentiator between us and like a room that maybe somebody

hasn't considered all these things. So. And they have evolved a

little bit. So they really designed more like a

kitchen than anything else. Because you are dealing with bodily

fluids, you are dealing often with intense

facilities in terms of use. Like an airport is high

traffic and high impact. Right. You're wear, you might be willing a piece of

luggage, you might have a toddler with you. So the number one thing

that has driven our interior design is really cleanliness

and being able to make sure that it is easy to

take care of for the facility, facility that manages that, and for the

mom who might be kind of cleaning up after herself. So the interiors

have benches, they have a full down table to place a pump. They have

the appropriately placed location for plugging

in a pump. In outlets. They have a

mirror, they have coat hooks, they have a

charger. So you can, you know, you're often, you are in a

humping or breastfeeding situation for 20 to 30 minutes. You might be wanting

to charge your phone at that same time or even use your phone.

And you access our pods through our, or most of our pods

through our mobile app. So you can both search to find their locations or

find other lactation spaces that are public that are also on our

app. And then when you get to the pod, you use the app to actually

open the door and that just creates a little bit of friction and

management for the space. So, you know, it's not being

used just by anybody who can just run in there and charge their phone.

Obviously, we don't police who downloads the app. We do not charge for that.

But you have to be kind of a bad actor to deliberately

download an app. Not be a breastfeeding parent and enter the space.

So we don't find, actually that there is any or very much abuse on those

spaces. Then our newest units evolved a little bit

because we originally really thought of them

as high traffic location solves,

like convention centers and airports and stadiums.

But what has materialized is that they've been needed to place

everywhere moms go or work, which is everywhere. And so now the newest

units actually have a cushioned seat, still easy to clean. It's not

fabric. It's an easily wiped down surface. But it's a cushioned seat

because she may be going in there for her job three times a day

to pump. So that has evolved a little bit.

Yeah, that's good to know. I was at a conference talking about the

pump act, just kind of giving some

awareness to HR people, and we were

talking about setting up a lactation space. And they were in the aerospace industry,

so they were at a large campus, and she mentioned that it was very

difficult to try to have a lactation space in every

building. I was like, you should look at the mama Bob pod. Thank

you. That's awesome. I pulled them up, and she's like, oh, wow.

This is exactly the kind of thing that we need is something that we could

just place, you know, in a hallway or something without having to give up a

whole room. But we need more than one laptation space on our

campus. We need, yeah, and you can migrate them because they actually

have a system where you crank up the footers and they have

casters. So if you have threshold and the ability to just roll things

around, you can do that, or you can disassemble and put them back up. They're

pretty light, but they do provide that flexibility. And we have used

that, especially in manufacturing, where you want to actually bring

or warehousing, bring a facility closer to the

user versus. Okay, great. They're taking a break, and now they're walking

half a mile to get to a place where they can actually do this.

Yeah, I could see where that would be really helpful. If you have an employee

in building a that's pumping this year, but then in

building Fe on the other side of campus next year, you could move it a

little closer to her. That would be really nice.

Absolutely. We see that all the time. I love that YoU also said

that it's an appropriately placed OUtLet,

because a lot of times when you're trying to pump in

spaces that aren't designed for pumping, that is a problem.

I know I've had to stretch way across the room or

drag a chair closer to a wall and then your table or

whatever is 6ft from you. It's a real

problem. Yeah. Yeah. That is exactly the kind of

thing that we've thought about. And it is. It's different and

it is a little. It was challenging to think about solving for both a

breastfeeding. We might want dimmer lights and different kind of a

setup versus pumping. But I think we've struck a good balance

there and we, you know, we've learned over the years what

parents are looking for. Yeah.

Also saw a post from you guys recently that you have like

pop up pod. So it's not the

gIant, you know, kind of harder to move

pods, but Like, I think it was inflatable. Yeah, they're fun little inflatables.

They're almost like a bouncy house in that you have to keep them plugged in

so that you kind of like run a soft fan. And we do those for

events so we don't sell them. But it's a way to get

our mission extended to places that can't

figure out a room. Sometimes they're outside under a tent. Right. Because

it's still not really environmentally controlled. We want it to be shaded.

And the way these are designed, they have kind of an open top. I love

them. I think that those are very joyous objects as well.

They're like this. They're kind of like an igloo. Those give me great joy to

see those in the field and sort of an easy solve.

Right. They pack into like a crate, a pretty small crate and then they can

be go, they inflate in one and a half minutes. So. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Yeah. That's really cool. So I'm imagining for like races or

events like that or conferences and things where

maybe the lactation support isn't already in place in the building or is it

outdoor event? Yeah, I imagine that's really helpful. Yeah.

Yeah. So I mentioned the pump app. I wonder what

are your kind of thoughts on that new legislation and did you

have any advocacy from mama Bob when that

was sort of coming through or. I'm sure that you guys have

a bit of a hand in some advocacy for breastfeeding. Absolutely.

Like it's been a very big part of what has

manifested with Mama Bob. So my kids are 20

and 18 and it wasn't until

the flsa AfForDable Care act changes came

about that this idea for

the Business Case REALLY TiCKed over to like, okay, now

people have to be in compLiance. There's a business to be had here.

So this policy has always been our brand. And like we say, like,

good policy is actually good for business, and it gets people back to work

and it gets, you know, more people meeting their breastfeeding goals. And

it helped Mamaba actually establish ourselves. So

we definitely have been in the

advocacy zone, going to conferences,

talking locally with our senators who are, we're very

close, not a small state. We are literally on first name basis

with Senator Welch and Senator Sanders. I actually used to work for Bernie

Sanders, my first job out of college, so that's

helpful. And the Pump act was

amazing because it

closed the gap on some of those

work categories, as you likely know.

So the original fair labor standards under the

ACA protected those hourly employees, and it

mandated break time in a place other than a

restroom. But there was all sorts of employees

in the category of exempt, like

teachers and medical professionals. I think

about 9 million people kind of fit into that category

that now are covered in the pump act. And the pump act

puts some teeth into the actual compliance so you

can, you know, bring action against an employer who does not

solve the problem within seven days. So

we are seeing, and I don't love to see the last action

suits come up because of it. For

employers who have not created the proper accommodations,

we're here to help with that, and in a really easy way.

It's like, it's really, I think, an

easy solve that can help your employees help in this era

of low unemployment, help in terms of getting

people like your customers into spaces, if you

have lactation, accommodation, it signals something about your values as a

company. Yeah, absolutely. That's, and I was

a teacher for about ten years. So when I was

breastfeeding, I was a teacher. And I remember sitting at my desk

and googling after a disagreement

over my pumping time with my manager and, like, searching what laws

protect me to breastfeed as a teacher in Tennessee. And there wasn't

one because, like you've mentioned, I was one of those exempt employees. They

didn't have to allow me the time. So, yeah, it's really great that

the compact now provides that protection for pretty

much everyone, pretty much very few

people that might not be able to claim, you

know, that their player has to provide those accommodations. And like

you said, mom, of all the pretty simple fall for it, right?

Something a business is struggling with. Can't find the space

or doesn't know how to set it up or whatever, you know, reach out to

Amavon. I'm sure you could hook them up. Yeah, and we have. Although, as you

say, it's less relevant. Now, we've always been really front footed

about having that legislation and your rights and laws on our website.

So that's both a resource for employers or facilities and for

the parent who might be needing to advocate for themselves.

And we found that, like a lot of

our customers, you know, it starts with a squeaky wheel. It starts

with a parent or a lactivist who says, oh,

we should be doing either like, you need to solve this problem for me, or

they're advocating for somebody else. And that actually tends to not be that

gendered. Right. We have a lot of like papa vas, as we

say, or fairy pod fathers who have, you know,

are a grandparent or a partner to somebody who's breastfeeding and really

believe in it and have brought the solution to their businesses

and their facilities. Yeah, that's great, because oftentimes the

breastfeeding individual themselves doesn't have the

energy to advocate for themselves. Yeah, we

always take someone else stepping up and having, yeah. So

we have the mobile app that allows moms or parents to find pods and we

see that there are a lot of dads or

partners on it. Right. Because they're like the wingman to the travel

situation and they are supporting

and managing. So the breastfeeding mom

can just do that part of it. So it will get comments and

I'll be like, oh, this is a dad. Oh, that's cool. You know what I

mean? Yeah, that's awesome. And you mentioned,

for the businesses who are purchasing a mama ba pot or even just having a

nice lactation room, it's not just about like complying with the law because

of course, that's the bare minimum. You really have to do that. But it also

sends a message and helps promote a really nice culture.

Absolutely. And it's just another form. Yeah. There's so much

conversation around infrastructure, right. In our world

today. Like, we need to invest in infrastructure. I'm like, well, lactation and

lactation policies and support is infrastructure. And you can't get

somebody to the job if they are dealing

with, you know, a part of their life that isn't being supported at that

job or they don't have childcare or they don't have, you know, paid

leave to establish, you know, breastfeeding. So that

is, you know, infrastructure should be more broadly conceived

in terms of care infrastructure as well. Yes, absolutely. We

consider, you know, transportation infrastructure. Somebody can't get to work if they don't

have a way to get there. Well, they also can't come to work. They don't

have somebody to wash their kids or if they don't have a way to continue

feeding their kids. Totally, exactly.

Yeah, absolutely. Should be considered infrastructure.

So you are now the chief experience

officer, and I know part of that goes, you know, you are

helping build a nice culture at your organization, but I wonder

what your thoughts are. How can a company promote a more family

friendly work culture? Oh, great question.

Well, you know, flexibility is that number

one thing. Actually, maybe it's the number two thing. Really good

benefits in this country especially, is number one.

So security with healthcare, good

compensation, including time offs,

obviously, and all of the kind of support that is

needed. And then the

flexibility factor is key. And that's one of the things that's

interesting about our business, is that we do, as I said, we have a

facility that manufactures our pods,

which is really driven on a manufacturing schedule. You have to be in

that space. You have to be there to do that. And, and

then we obviously have more of a office culture. We have some

people that are truly remote, remote across the country, and then folks that are based

in Burlington, Vermont. So putting those tools in place that we have all

been using, like we are an active slack company,

right? Yeah. The slack is that water cooler. We

have our schedule now is to be two days

together in the office and then three days kind of

wherever you want to be. And that seems

like it's really working for us again. It's, how do you

keep that balance for our folks at the factory? So for them,

generally, they can

work within usually like a four day work week that we try

to put their hours in and work early and

late and have just because it's a smaller team at

the factory can kind of navigate that, how we design

that work experience. But everything else in the company is

like, if you're an hourly wage employee, you have the same package

as the salaried employees, meaning same vacations. We

close down the factory between, like, for instance, Christmas and

New Year's. We have obviously all the same benefits

we give all of our employees, whether they're hourly or salary

and equity stakeholders. So things like that just have

been fun to figure out, given the two very different sides of the

business. But I would say, to answer your question, flexibility, how do you

manifest that with these different kind of workplaces?

And, you know, freedom and responsibility. Right? So it's like,

people understand the work that they need to get done, and

we give them the freedom to figure out how, what works best

for actually getting done. Right. And that freedom comes with a

level of trust. Right. You're trusting they're going to get their work

done exactly when it is best and how it is the best for them.

Yeah, I would have to say, like, in this era of more

flexibility, it puts the burden on

managers. You have to have really good managers because

you are, you know, training people up and keeping them engaged and

making sure they're hitting their obligations and

KPI's. So that is, I think a big shift in work

culture is just the need for those managers to

be working. I think it's a harder job than it used to be.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, Sasha, those were a great

conversation. Thank you so much for coming on today to talk about

breastfeeding and culture and the beautiful mama vaupod.

Thank you for having me. And if anybody wants to learn more

about Mama Bob, where can they go? Websites at bestplace,

malaba.com, mamava.com.

and I'm kind of partial

to Instagram, so it's Mamaba Vt.

That's kind of like my favorite social platform. Right? Great. Well, I'll

make sure we put some links in the show notes as well.

And thank you again for being here. You're

welcome. Thanks for having me. Courtney.

If you enjoyed this episode, I know youll love the future ready work

culture framework. Head over to courtneyross.com

framework to download your copy and start building a family

friendly, future ready workplace today. Dont

forget to subscribe to the nextgen work culture so you never miss an

episode. Id love it if youd also take a moment to leave a

review. Until next time, take care.