In this episode of OnCoaching, Zoltán Csigás talks with Nate Regier PhD

who is the founder of Next Element, Certifying Master Trainer of PCM® , keynote

speaker and author. Dr Regier is a

a highly experienced coach and trainer who has been developing practical

tools that support the management of drama, conflicts and the handling of

challenging conversations. Nate and Zoltán cover a number of topics including

the founding of Next Element, the development of new tools and the core ideas

of Nate’s new book: Compassionate Accountability.

Hello, my name is Zoltan Csigás, and this is Zoltan Podcast ON COACHING. . In the series, I'm talking with internationally renowned coaching scientists and coaches. We explore their personal and professional insights on the science of coaching, and on the helping professions. Are you interested in how they got close to this profession? Are you curious about the new frontiers they are exploring right now? Join me and listen to the conversation, inspiration, and some fun is ahead. Welcome, Nate, I'm so glad to have you here.

Man, it's great to be here. I appreciate it.

Thank you. May I ask you to give a quick introduction of yourself things that you consider to be important about you?

Yeah, thank you. Well, my name is Nate regear. I'm the CEO of next element consulting. One interesting thing about that is we started our company in 2008, which is when the big recession started. And so that was kind of traumatic. But we're still here, we've been through COVID, we've been through couple recessions. And we're still here. And I'm a recovering psychologist, actually, that was my previous job. I'm in recovery, not because it was so bad, but because we're learning every single day, keep adding to that knowledge base.

Thank you very much. I can't relate to the recovering psychosis. But I will tell you see that I'm up throat sacrilegious these days. I tend to watch a lot of things through those lenses. But I I really appreciate all the tools and the theories that can help my psychologist self and all the cool stuff that you have. And your team have developed that one of the reasons so I am glad to have you here. And yeah, sounds like a bold move to create a company in the middle of a recession. What made you What was the inspiration to start next month in the middle of the recession?

Well, we didn't know the recession was going to happen. So we were already planning the company before that. As a psychologist, I enjoyed my work. And I was lucky to work at a large multi specialty behavioral health organization. So I got to try lots of things. And every time I got to do work, that was consultation, liaison, training, consulting, I just loved it. Our organization happened to have a consulting division that had an A team building ropes course. And I met several other facilitators working on that ropes course. And I fell in love with working with teams, I fell in love with applying the principles of psychology, to working with leaders, the dream, just the seeds were planted. And eventually, we just felt like, we could make a bigger difference in the world working with companies who could impact the mental health of an entire organization, rather than waiting for individuals to come to us in a therapy setting. And so it really was about trying to make a bigger difference and following our passions for the things that fit our personalities, things we really enjoy doing.

That sounds so cool. It sounds like a mission statement. So make a bigger difference for my sacrilegious self that mental health is quite a central topic in my work. Yes, and reaching out to lots of people or making a bigger difference in the field of mental health. I think that's who that's extremely important thing, or at least this is how I see the world these days. Yeah. Oh, well, I'm really amazed of your work, because well, I cannot hide it, that I've been knowing you that I've known you for a while now. And I know you from the PCM role. And I've always been amazed by all the other stuff that you've been doing. One of the things that I'm really amazed by is that the tools or the concepts that you've been developing in recent years, like LOD, compassionate accountability, Neos, so there are lots of tools under your belt that you have developed. And what is your secret in creating these cool stuff? Is there a secret? And what is happening in the witch hunts of next element?

There is a secret. And I would, yes, I would credit, the secret is process. And I got certified and I was introduced to PCM and became a trainer in PCM. When I was still a psychologist, I didn't learn about PCM in my formal training. I learned about it from a mentor of mine, who was my supervisor. And of course, like most people who were introduced a PCM. It was it was amazing. And it transformed my clinical work. Even before that, though, working on the adventure ropes course facilitating team development experiences, it's all about process. We put challenges in front of groups. That's the content. The real question is how how will we go about being with each other, how will we communicate? How will we handle this process? I was process was in my heart from the beginning. PCM was a beautiful fit and a wonderful first tool that we used in our company. And we just continued to look for, how can we bring process to people in more accessible ways. One of the things we learned with PCM, it was our bread and butter, it was our staple tool for at least three years, the first three years and our company did very well. What we kept running into though was conflict PCM frames conflict negatively as part of miscommunication. And it's a process model. So it's all about how do we use process to improve communication and get rid of negative drama and conflict? What we didn't see though was how do we have conflict around content in an OK, OK, way. And so what was missing from our repertoire was tools for what we call plus plus conflict, around content around behavior. And our leaders, all of our clients kept saying, Well, how do we have these hard conversations? How do we talk about things, meeting someone's psychological needs helps, but it doesn't magically solve the problem, we still have to talk about behavior. So that was the first time we realized we need to develop some more tools.

Oh, I'm so grateful that you brought this up because I'm a seventh choosiest. Myself, and but as a researcher, or I like to call myself a researcher, thirds of your research mindset, I'm always interested in the boundaries of models. There's topics that they cannot cover where they just get into a dead end. And our models have their limitations. This was my sense of a PCM, as well is that we have a limitation around the contents, that certain things are not addressed by the topic by the tool itself. How did this realization that you need to have two full plus plus conflict conversations? How did this realization leads lead to the development of leading out of drama? What was the journey? That's what I'm really interested in?

Yeah, I'll share with you that journey. So part of it was our clients were asking for more. Do you we love PCM? Do you have a tool for this? Or we have another problem? Can you help us? And it's true? No model is a panacea. No Model A solves everything. And it would be foolish for us to think that we could come in with one tool and solve every problem. But we really wanted to help our clients deal with healthy conflict. At that time in the US in the early 2000s. There were several models that were coming out. One was crucial conversations. One was radical candor, EQ was getting popular. So there were frameworks for how to have hard conversations. We looked at them and they just we didn't like and we didn't think they were practical enough. They weren't useful. They weren't process oriented, like PCM. Also, we were inspired by the work of Steven Cartman and the Drama Triangle. You know, the Drama Triangle is part of the genetic background behind PCM and Cartman and Kaler. You know, we're friends. Both of them got Eric Byrne Memorial scientific awards. And so we like the Drama Triangle because it was an easy way for people to understand plus minus and minus plus conflict. But we needed more. So we evolved the compassion triangle into the compassion cycle. And at the same time, we were developing a tool called Neos, which is a self efficacy outcomes measurement tool. We've always believed that measuring outcomes was important because I'm a researcher like you. I'm a clinical psychologist, I want to measure behavior. And with Neos, we realized the three most important things of our human experience our effect feelings, cognition, thoughts, and then behaviors. Interestingly, those are the same three doorways from were back in the origin of PCM. It also was shown in the social self efficacy research long before EQ was popular, they were identifying these three aspects of human experience. So we design needs to measure change, and those three things. And we identified openness, which is changing our hearts, resourcefulness, which is changing in our thinking, and then persistence, which is changing our behavior. And we validated that tool, very extensively validated and started measuring outcomes. And it also happened to match the three skills in the compassion cycle, which became the heart of our LOD model, because we always believed that compassion was the ultimate solution to our problems. We just needed to operationalize it and turn it into a practical model that we could teach. So that's been our journey.

Thank you very much. You just use the word Oh, personalize. And before we go there, may I ask you to give us a definition of quite vaguely, that also, we all have a bit of an understanding what does it mean to be compassionate, but sometimes it just like being very empathetic or feeling for you or just having big tears for you, whatever. But reading your book, I don't sense that you have a specific definition of understanding of what confession is, and, and I would love you to share that with us.

Absolutely. And I'm glad you asked, because we have been trying to bring more compassion to the world since the beginning of next element. To do that, though, we have to be clear about what we mean. And compassion, like you said, has all kinds of different understandings. And because we also are, we're big proponents of healthy conflict and healthy communication, we dug deeper into compassion, the root, we went back to the route realize that compassion comes from the Latin root meaning with suffer calm, passion with suffer. So it's a process of struggle, it's hard work. It's not just about alleviating suffering, or having empathy, it really is a dynamic relationship between people, plus plus conflict, really, we finally kept working on our definition. And we have decided on a definition now that works really well. And it is this compassion is the practice of demonstrating that people are valuable, capable and responsible in every interaction. And there's three parts we I briefly explained the three parts. So compassion is the practice of demonstrating which means we are showing it through our behavior. It's not just a feeling, it's not just a thought, we have to demonstrate it. In our relationships with people just like PCM is about observable behavior. It's not about intentions. It's not about what's going on the inside. It's what we actually can see. It's a practice, which means we're getting we're doing it every day, and we're working on

it. Does this mean that you can easily teach it as well? Are there typical behaviors of compassion that we can teach show once whatever

the research is clear that compassion can be taught people can learn it, anyone can learn it fairly quickly. And anyone can start having results fairly quickly. But what are we practicing, or demonstrating that people are valuable, capable and responsible, those are three very important aspects of being in relationships. Plus, plus in the PCM world is I'm worthwhile, you're worthwhile, that's valuable. But we are also capable, we are also creative, a agentic, human beings that have skills and gifts and passions, and character strengths. So we are also part of the solution, we're capable. We're also responsible, which means that each of us is 100% responsible for our thoughts, our feelings and our behaviors, no more, no less. And because we live in communities, our behavior matters, how we treat each other matters. And we have to be able to talk about that. So value capability and responsibility are the three aspects. Those are the skills we teach in our model, then when do we do this, every interaction, the action is in the interaction, we know that from PCM we know that from transactional analysis, we know that from social emotional intelligence, that it is really ultimately comes down to how we communicate with each other.

Responsibility is important in our daily lives. And as a coach, I see the topic of responsibility coming back to me and to my clients from all the time and, and being responsible for our own emotions. That seems to be a challenging topic or challenging. So for for so many people, and valuing coaching conversations, they frequently get comments like, whoa, but those people made me do this, and you made me angry, and even this question of how can how come that I'm not responsible for my emotion, even that is making me feel angry him whatever? Yeah. How do you help people to realize that they have responsibility for their emotions, and this is not something which can be ignited? I mean, emotions are not ignited by the events of the outside.

You know, I became aware of this dynamic because of PCM. PCM, is so clear about this with the myths and with the different the importance of authentically experiencing our phase, enriching emotion and phase issues. So, how to explain it, though, and how to help people really appreciate what does that mean, to be 100% responsible for our feelings? I think it goes, there's two ways to look at it solely. One is, where did they come from? So we can look backwards on our feelings, and we can get into arguments like did they make me feel bad? Did they not make me feel bad? Where did they come from? And we can understand that by distinguishing effect from emotion And this is really important because in PCM TV clarifies make me feel emotionally. So an effect is one of those physiological things that happens kind of reflexively, I may step into a street and a bus goes by and I barely miss it, my heart's pounding, and the hair is standing up on the back of my neck, that's an effect. Now I have to interpret and make meaning of that. I'm afraid I'm anxious, I'm scared. So when I give name to it, when I start to make meaning, that's emotion. And that is very unique to individuals. It's influenced by our backgrounds, our beliefs, our experiences, our past trauma, all of that our perceptual frame of reference. When we look backwards, we can distinguish that, yeah, that bus, in your limbic system caused your heart rate to go real fast. And then you you made meaning of that. The other way I help people understand is to say, you know, have you ever had three or four people have the same experience? And they tell a different story? Well, of course, that's because we all filter the world through our own beliefs, our own experiences, the same is true for our emotions. So two people can have as different emotion in front of the same behavior. So clearly, that person didn't cause it. But what if we look forward? Let's not argue about who caused it. The real question is, so who owns it? Whose is it? Well, I'm the one who's angry, not you. I can say you made me angry. But now it's mine. I have it. And I'm the one that gets to decide what to do next. And this is where responsibility is so important, is it is mine, right? Now it's inside of me, what am I going to do, and I have choices there. And if I want to blame someone else for causing the anger, then I can also blame them for what I do next, and not have any responsibility for my behavior. That's where we have to be really careful.

Thank you, this sounds wonderfully simple. Oh, you're explaining it. And I'm just grateful that you put it out there in in such an easy to understandable way. I hope that letter for listeners will take will take use of your words with their clients. So with themselves. So cool, thank you very much. I really like the concept of giving meaning or interpretation to our feelings and to what is happening to us. And I think that's a crucial point in, in us being humans, that we are simply.

And one of the most important roles that coaches and therapists can play. We help people make meaning of what they're experiencing. We help them give names to the emotions, we help them learn how to express those emotions in healthy, authentic ways, without judging, and so that's such an important role. A gift that people need.

Totally agree. Yeah, I think we could just go back to the roots of clinical psychology with Rogers sense. And cool guys like him. Your listeners cannot see us. But I'm just looking at the sky. And I'm like, sorry, Old Master. Guy. But the my person to a frame of reference call is, is a good word of appreciation for some. I think we're headed in the same understanding around Yes. What is interesting for me and let me roll a bit further is that you've said that you'll develop the concepts based on your client needs and your observations. And what I'm curious about is your way of developing it. And of course, feel free to say, well, this is the secret solely. So what is your way of researching these concepts? One of my missions with this whole podcast is to get the scientific way of working with people or the science of coaching of its into the reflector.

Here's our method in our team at next element. We've always wanted our company to be like a laboratory, or a laboratory for the European folks, British folks. So when we started next element, we had three trainers, PCM trainers, immediately in the company, we trained together, we would debrief together, we would practice together. And so we were always testing our understanding with each other. Then there was the mix of our personality types. Jamie always was looking for how could we make this a safe place for people to learn? Jeff was always wanting to say what is the most important thing here? And I was always saying, How can we make it practical, easy to understand, let's make it simple so people can get to action right away. So we all had our own angle. And when we came together, we started seeing there was synergy. We would come up with maybe a different way of saying something or what if we tried explaining a driver this way, and then we would all go to train and We would try it. And we would come back and share our experience. So lots of field testing, lots of field testing, then we would eventually incorporate it into our practice and say, let's do this now. So lots of bringing ideas together, we each influenced it. And then on the other side, we would come out with something that we felt was more elegant, more simple. And then I started writing, I did lots of blogging. And the thing about writing and blogging is, as you know, is you have to consolidate your thoughts into a digestible piece. So, right blogging forced me to practice how could I articulate an idea in the easiest, simplest way, so people could go use it? prob my last three books, mostly were written by compiling all my blocks. So this came together. And then of course, we wanted to create a model. So now we have to create a visual that illustrates this. And you know, then once we had that, we have to go on to how do you teach it to people, certifications, facilitation guides, so you can have replication and fidelity. And we already had outcomes measurement. So we were always testing to see which method would get the best results, and kept adjusting and adjusting it over about 10 years.

Thank you very much. Well, I've been reading lots of your blog posts, but the ones that really spoke to me or to my research or mine, but these impact measures or outcome measures, because I've been seeing very great numbers there. Am I right to see that you are frequently doing these impact measurements in your programs? Or in the development of your new models?

Oh, yes, yes, we have over 25,000 research data points globally. Because all of our global trainers all have free access to our outcomes measurement tools in their language. So we are all collecting data using the same tool so we can compare. And it's an incredible research laboratory that we're analyzing all the time. But I was just

hoping that you would say the global network, because that really opens the way for my next question, because he's there, have you seen any intercultural differences in the concepts that you've been developing? So around positive conflicts, or the roles in the Drama Triangle?

Two things, two things we've noticed from our global research and talking to our trainers, the all of our models basically come down to three aspects. Open, resourceful, persistent in LOD, and valuable, capable responsible in the compassion mindset, just three things. So we can compare those three things across cultures. And what we've noticed, and we measure them with our assessments. So what we've noticed is some cultures are very strong on Open. And they tend to be weaker on persistence. A great example is Eastern like Japanese culture, very friendly, very warm, very welcoming, kind of conflict averse. And so openness is well developed. But when we start talking about persistence, and having to have tough conversations, that's very difficult. Culturally, the opposite is true in more German cultures, very methodical, organized, very, you know, thinker persister, in the in the pre PCM language. So they're very resourceful and very persistent. They work hard, they don't quit. But openness, creating safe open environments and connecting with our hearts, not easy. It's not part of the culture. It we see those differences culturally, and that what's neat, though, is that every group we've worked with in any culture, they recognize that all three are important, even if it might be lopsided in their culture, they see the need for it. And balance is the key. Here's the other thing. leading out of drama LOD stands for leading out of drama, and the whole message of that title is we're going to move away from drama, we don't want it in more Eastern Europe, that's very attractive, because they say, Oh, we want to get away from the drama. But as you move further west into the US companies say no, we want to move towards compassion, not away from drama. So it's an aspirational, kind of, we're trying to create these amazing places. We don't want to talk about the bad stuff, we just want to move towards the good stuff. And so we created compassion mindset to get rid of the word drama. It's been very attractive for organizations that want to move aspirationally towards a better place and don't want to name the problem.

Let me see the week towards the compassionate accountability and the compassion mindset, because that's the that's my recent favorite from you. Yes, that's your that's your, that's your latest, but I'm really inspired by as I was reading it is that brings together two seemingly opposite concepts, being accountable, responsible for taking care of doing the hard stuff and being compassionate, which I could translate as being warm and friendly. And so We being both the kind and the Achieving leader at the same time. And I'm really a fan of those models or those things that integrate, instead of just drawing up opposites and seeing people that okay, go and find your balance. In your experience, what is the biggest challenge is if there's one thing or one challenge that makes it hard to make this integration, so bring together the two objects,

here's what we've seen is, every human being under enough pressure will choose, they will either choose relationships over results, or they will choose results over relationships. We know this PCM predicts it, it predicts exactly which way they will go and it's the who's okay and who's not okay, right. The attacker mask chooses results over relationships. The victim mask chooses relationships over results, or the droop or mask is so everyone will choose. But the fact that they choose means they are misunderstanding the problem. The problem isn't that you have to choose. And the problem is overcoming our natural tendencies in distress, and realizing that in fact, they're the same thing. Compassion and accountability can't live without each other. And if you try to have compassion without accountability, you get nowhere no results. But if you have accountability, without compassion, you have no relationships, and you're alienated. And people don't perform well without connection.

Unfortunately, it is that high performing alienated workplaces, that seems to be kind of a strategy for certain organizations.

So yeah, oh, yeah. It makes sense that you need both. Okay, so compassion and accountability need to go together, that's great. The problem didn't really become critical until COVID. COVID revealed the problem because I write about the pendulum of compassion in my new book, we were seeing compassion go all the way, one way, all the way the other way. And through COVID, we realize that the old way of understanding compassionate would no longer work, and that you can't have accountability without compassion. Great example is all these workplaces saying you have to come back to work. Now it's enough of working from home in your pajamas, you need to come back, we need to start being productive, or we need to track your work to make sure you're actually working. When you're home. Accountability with no compassion, the employees say forget it, I'm leaving, I won't work for you. If you make me come back to work, I'm going somewhere else, because I can work from home leaders no longer get to choose the workplace of the future. And the leader of the future has to be able to do both well, and there was no roadmap for it. So we wrote the book.

Well, I'm not repeating myself about integration. What strikes me in your description is the the how you were framing it is that the challenge is to overcome or nature of distress. These were not exactly the words that you've been saying, Is that so? Staying Okay, okay, when we have to make these decisions, and we can use our whole capacities to come up with something much better. This leads me to the question that I've been just a few minutes ago with it. What are the typical behaviors that we can teach in order to make the compassion mindset or the compassionate accountability thing work? So what would the things that you would start get each levers?

Yes, people. So let's look at the three switches of compassion mindset. This is my original three switches that I built, the switch of value, there are nine dimensions that we teach all clusters of behaviors, but it all comes down to opening your heart to another person. That means being vulnerable. It feels vulnerable to say, here's what's in my heart, because our emotions are the thing that is so real. It's so part of who we are. It's so tied to us that it's scary to share it with someone what if they don't care? What if they think it's stupid? What if they tell me that I'm the only person that's ever felt that way, and then I feel even more alone, so is vulnerable to open our hearts. However, when we open our heart and make ourselves vulnerable, we create a safe place for other people to do the same. So real human connection is about the heart. We teach leaders how to open their hearts, how to affirm other people. You know, in PCM language, the nurturing of channel is great for doing that. But it's a lot more than that. We can tell someone thank you so much for sharing what matters to you. Or a persister, we might say to a thinker. Wow, that must have been really risky for you to share your ideas. I thank you for telling me that. For a rebel we might say that's so amazing. I can't believe you're going through that. Wow. Creating a safe place. When it comes to capability switch. It's really about curiosity we cultivate, how are we curious? How are we truly interested in what other people bring? Their skills, their gifts, their experiences, their thoughts, their feelings, their beliefs, their imagination, all of that? How do we learn? And how do we use that in order to help them grow and learn and grow and create a place where we are maximizing their gifts? This is where failure is a big thing in capability, how do we use failure? How do we deal with it and treat it and that's a big thing we teach is skills for turning failure into learning opportunities, instead of shame or identity, crisis's. And then responsibility switch. This is where we talk about follow through commitment, goal setting, making agreements with each other, and also responsibility for our feelings. What does it mean, to really own all of me? When we apply this, when we lay this model over PCM, we talked to people, what does it mean to own all six types within you, they are all part of you, you are responsible for all six of them. Not just your base, not just your face, those are important, because they're an avenue to get to the others, but they're all part of you and you are responsible for their behavior, you're responsible for how they handle things.

I hope we all have access to this mindset. And I wish for us all to use them properly in our daily lives because it would be so cool to have all the conversations around us with with all these switches on. And as I was listening to then a typical client would say to me, okay, this sounds very okay. I will go out and try and on the first failure, I will just stop doing it. My question this is not related, just to this model, but more. This is a broader question. What is your approach towards soul defying these Newsbeat new behaviors?

This is the first model the first time we've written a book and proposed a model that includes mindset. We've never talked about mindset before. And that's because we've come to realize through our experience, and through the research, that mindset is a powerful precursor to behavior. And mindset is about attitude. It's about a choice. It's not about learned skills, we can turn on our switches and immediately change our behavior. And I have an example of that in the book, a powerful example of an executive who was in distress. And I asked him, right now when you just said that wherever your switches, and he's exactly said this switch was off, this switch was on this, which was off. And I said, Okay, so if you turn the switch back on, what would you say instead, he said, he just liked that he was out of distress. And he said, exactly, what was the right thing to do? And his switch went back off right after that. But it showed me that we can ask ourselves, where was my switch just now when I did that? And what would I do differently if I turned it back on? That's the first step. However, we also have to practice the skills with coaching. As you know, it doesn't matter if it's PCM, or LOD, or compassion mindset, or disc or playing violin, we practice, practice practice to develop those healthy habits. And we do it with coaching with people around us to help us do it, right.

Unfortunately, I'm aware of time limits. And the one thing game I'm really curious about is that a number of my listeners, number of odd listeners are coaches. What would we say? Is that a specific relevance of this model for coaches? Is this something that you would recommend to do for coaches based on on your work around compassionate accountability? Well, the

book is a great coaching tool because it has self assessments in it. And part of coaching is helping raise awareness for people around their behaviors. It has measurements, people can measure where their switches are, and they can keep measuring it. And there's three chapters dedicated just to developing the skills. So a coach can work with their coachee on which skill set do I want to work on? And then how do I do that? There's quizzes where people can assess how well they understand the concepts and then they can practice. So it's a great template for coaches. Our new website coming in October will have a lot more resources for coaches. They can go get free resources for their work. A lot of coaches that use our material, they ask their coachee to subscribe to my blog, and they use some of those articles as discussion starters, conversation starters for coaching.

Thank you very much. Well, I have just one final question. I know whenever here that you will Curious for salvia is exploring the boundaries of real work and of the models. So what is the next day? What is the next thing on your plate.

So right now we are playing with something I don't know if it will be become real, but we're playing with a interactive tool, you blending the switches with artificial intelligence, where you can position the switches and then have a conversation with a chat bot that will converse with you based on where the switches are. And you can practice conversations and you can practice experiencing what it's like to have your switches on or off. So we're working on that right now. I don't know when it will be ready. I'm going to start working on a revision of my second book, conflict without casualties, Second Edition will be coming out. And then I'm working on my next book already. I'm not sure if I want to say the title of it. But

don't say the title just say the title yet. Just say what one thing that will keep us hungry.

This is going to be a book written for an audience of leaders who are struggling to move from old school to new school. It's going to be looking at that journey, how a leader comes to recognize that the way they've been doing things is no longer working. And then what do they go through to embrace a new paradigm and then learn it so that they can be successful again.

That sounds awesome. We'll latest around the launch of that book, I would be happy to welcome you again. Thank you. So versation

Zoli, I'm so grateful to know you, I'm so grateful for the work you're doing in your side of the ocean. And for being part of this larger community. Our mission is to bring compassion to every workplace in the world. And so being able to visit with you and to be on your podcast helps spread the word to more people. Thank you for being part of that.

Thank you. And thank you very much for joining us. This was a great conversation for me and well I'm wishing you will not just log but I'm wishing you everything on your for your mission because I think you are on on a very important mission. And so thanks. Thank you very much, Nate. Thank you for listening to on coaching podcast, where I have curious conversations with virginal coaches and researchers. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to rate us and subscribe. I also invite you to visit Zoltan shoegaze Lutron where you can access more resources regarding the coaching industry very well.