Dr Katta Spiel is an Assistant Professor at TU Wien, a recent ERC Starting Grant recipient, and a good colleague of mine. In part two of our conversation, Katta discusses being neurodivergent, and experiences with ADHD, and being an activist for change with an example of how gender is dealt with in research, and about 'epistemic plurality and the importance of making space for different ways of being and knowing. They conclude by advocating for respectful curiosity about individual experiences and allowing others space to perform their best work. They also argue for a lab culture where personal needs can be discussed and respected, suggesting this encourages more open dialogue and a supportive environment.

This conversation picks up from Part one where Katta shared their experiences on topics like career uncertainty, proposal rejections, coming out as queer, chronic health issues, being successful, and notions of normativity. 

Overview:

[00:00:00] Introduction

[00:01:56] Personal Journey with Neurodivergence

[00:06:42] Strategies for Navigating Neurodivergence

[00:10:05] Dealing with a world not made for Neurodivergence

[00:15:39] Creating a Supportive Environment for Neurodivergence

[00:20:12] The Intersection of Neurodivergence and Activism

[00:26:19] Embracing different ways of being and knowing

[00:33:27] Final Thoughts on Neurodivergence and Inclusivity

[00:35:44] My final reflections

[00:38:06] End

Related links:

Katta's personal web page, TU Wien web page, LinkedIn page, and announcement about their ERC Starting Grant

Gender paper: Katta Spiel, Oliver L. Haimson, and Danielle Lottridge. 2019. How to do better with gender on surveys: a guide for HCI researchers. interactions 26, 4 (July-August 2019), 62–65. https://doi.org/10.1145/3338283

Hanne de Jaegher https://hannedejaegher.net

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

2

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

3

others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

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we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

5

Welcome to part two of

my conversation with Dr.

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Katta Spiel.

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Katta is an assistant

professor at TU Wien.

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And, also a recent recipient of an ERC

starting grant, which in the European

9

context is a very prestigious grant.

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And Katta's also a very good colleague

of mine for a number of years.

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In part, one of my

conversation with Katta.

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They talk about their experiences

around career uncertainty as

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a postdoc before they got this

current tenure track position.

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And other issues like dealing with

rejection of proposals coming out as

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queer dealing with chronic health issues.

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And we end up there talking

about normative approaches

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to technologies and bodies.

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We go on here in part two where

Katta talks about their personal

19

journey with being diagnosed

with ADHD, being neurodivergent.

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And what it's like negotiating

living in a world that doesn't really

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make space for different ways of

knowing and different ways of being

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and for different types of bodies.

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And also talking about, being an

activist and feeling that sense of

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injustice around many of these issues

and trying to make that difference.

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And ending with an encouragement

for us all to be curious about the

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different ways of being and knowing.

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So.

28

enjoy part two of this conversation.

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It brings up this notion of what we

assume is normative, approaches to

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all sorts of things, whether it's

Academia, gender filling in on forms,

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goals for fitness trackers and so on.

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Yeah.

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And you also talk about

being neurodivergent.

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Yes.

35

And I, I'm sitting here watching Katta,

do cross stitching as, as we're speaking.

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Katta: Yeah.

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In this case, yeah, um, now, I've been

doing that recently again, um, because I

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felt it was more portable than knitting.

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Um, so, this is something that

accompanies me actually my entire,

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like, school career and life.

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When I was, uh, in primary school,

in second grade, I was apparently so

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hard to handle that they gave me books

to read and were like, this makes no

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sense how you retain anything else.

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But like, apparently it went

better when I read books in class.

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Then I was like more attentive.

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Um, and that like was The case for

the longest time that I was just

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reading books in class and then

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Geri: while listening to the

teacher Yeah, whatever concept

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they were trying to explain.

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Katta: Yeah, and then

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Geri: so again the normative

account of what attention is

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Katta: And then during my whole studies

I was knitting Basically, once I dare to.

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Um, and, uh, and I didn't even know

I was neurodivergent at that point.

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I just did these things.

55

And now I just know what the reason for

that is, but I still do these things.

56

Maybe sometimes I allow

them more readily to me.

57

Because, like, I guess I would try and,

and I, I would try and get through, like,

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student meetings without doing that.

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But now I just keep telling my students,

like, I will pay more attention and be

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more concise and more helpful for you

if you let me do a thing next to it.

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Yeah.

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Like I will make more sense to you.

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We will have a better relationship

and it will just be a better

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interactive experience for you.

65

Mm-Hmm.

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. And it's actually surprising me

even like how well that is accepted.

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I mean, I also openly talk about it.

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I think it's really important to

kind of like for students to have

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that, I don't wanna say role model,

but like you are kind of put in

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that position, so you have to.

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Just like, whether you want or not, you

just have to kind of like, relate to that.

72

And, it does, there is a special flex in

being like, I have a learning disability.

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Geri: So, how do you characterize

your neurodivergence?

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Like, learning disability?

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Katta: No, but that's how it's

Characterized from the outside, right?

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Mm-Hmm.

77

. And then I play with that.

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Mm-Hmm.

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. But I see it as a difference.

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It's just a difference of processing,

of engaging with like, I mean,

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dopamine levels are, as far as

I understood, dopamine levels

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are, uh, lower, for example.

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And there are like neurological

differences, but I don't wanna like, you

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know, value that one way or the other.

85

I do identify as disabled due

to like a bunch of things.

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Um, and that being one of them.

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But that's more in terms of like

how I encounter a world that expects

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me to be different than how I am.

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And that's also how I identify

disability ultimately.

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So, yeah.

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And with that, yeah.

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I do, like, with the learning

disabled, that's just a flex, right?

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Because like, that, that

kind of is supposed to show.

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the irony behind defining it as such,

because I'm like, in this classic

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academic context, I seem to be

successful enough to kind of like reach

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a stage where this becomes ironic.

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I mean, it's helpful with like, I

raise a child and like, um, when I

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meet other parents and they keep on

being like, Oh yeah, we have like,

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we're discussing ADHD and whatever.

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And, and they don't necessarily

know that I have ADHD myself.

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I can come out and be like, yeah, well,

I have an ADHD too, and it's fine, and

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I work at a university, and they're

like, you can see how they just relax,

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like, immediately, of like, oh god, my

child can have academic success and all

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that, and then I try to explain, you

know, some strategies that might help,

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either from personal experience or from

literature, and like, ultimately, just

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working with the child, I guess, um,

and how they can learn, and usually,

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that, if you manage to have That as a

source of dopamine, then like learning.

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Then you call them.

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Geri: And you do?

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Katta: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, studying again.

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Geri: Studying again.

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Yeah.

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Yeah..

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So what, what are some of the

strategies that have worked for you?

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You've already talked about doing

something with your hands while

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you're talking or listening, you know,

what other ways have you been able

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to work with, who you are and your

particular ways of engaging in the

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world to achieve this level of success

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Katta: If only I knew.

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No, it's not quite as like I

do some things that I guess.

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I mean, I know of a lot of strategies

of how you plan yourself because I

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tried a lot and they have usually not

stuck and I have to change them all

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the time and how I structure my life.

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But that means I know a lot of ways of

structuring my life, which is useful to

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students, I guess, because, like, I can

make a whole range of different offers.

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I'm like, You could try this.

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It doesn't work.

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You could try this.

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I mean, I I've been through a lot.

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And it keeps on changing.

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I've recently tried now with another thing

and it's like, you know, that's fine.

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I have accepted that about myself, that

nothing will work and, uh, only, uh, or

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only if I do everything, so to speak.

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Like, at some, at different

points, different things will work.

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That is maybe the more

positive way to phrase that.

137

But also, um, yeah, it's, uh, I have

trouble like, you know, making choices

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between roughly equally important

things and that's really hard because

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then, then deadlines are motivators,

of course, like, cause the urgency that

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something takes does factor in, but

sometimes it has to be really, really

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urgent to, to kind of, like, kick in.

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Um, and you don't want to have that and

you don't want to sit around either.

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But like sometimes there's

paralysis of like, what do I do now?

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Because like emails, are they important?

145

Or is like this other thing

important that will put me in a

146

better position in the long term?

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Or like, how do I do this?

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How do I do that?

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Is this important now?

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Actually, you should be continuously

doing this so that, you know,

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for example, I do actually try

and update my CV once a month.

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So that I don't have to do

it all at once because I know

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that would even be worse then.

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But you know, some months I just

like move it to the next month as

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a task because like it doesn't feel

that much, like, that relevant.

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But, um, still.

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Sometimes it's just difficult

and then I roll a die.

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And so I have different

ways of rolling a die.

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I have physical die.

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I have a die app on my watch.

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I have a die app on my phone.

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A serious, a serious rolling a die.

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I have a Python script on

my computer that helps me.

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Yeah, I'm not into gambling, but

for that I do have a lot of die.

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And then I have like intricate systems

of like what specific numbers mean.

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And like I still haven't figured

out, like cause I use six

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sided die for the connoisseur.

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But like sometimes I

did not know all this!

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Yeah, I see.

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Um, hiding it well.

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No.

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Um, but like I have a six sided

die and um, I uh, I still haven't

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figured out well how to deal

with it when I have five options.

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But I still feel that is the best die.

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12 sided die might be better,

but like for now, 6 sided die.

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I've been, been holding on to

that for like at least 15 years.

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So that is the most stable

thing that I've done.

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Just like rolling die all the time.

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Geri: I mean, across all that you've

talked about, would it be fair to say this

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has been a journey of self acceptance?

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Getting to know yourself,

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Katta: I mean, I got diagnosed

late ish, like, um, I think I was

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30 or so with ADHD, with ADHD.

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Yeah.

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Um, or a bit earlier, but

like around that time and, um.

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And to an extent, yeah, self

acceptance, but like, it wasn't

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even about self acceptance, but

more like accepting, accepting that

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the world isn't made differently.

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Like, cause I have, there's this question

when you get diagnosed or whether you

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have an, an exaggerated need for justice.

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First of all, I don't think you can have

an exaggerated need for justice because

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either you have a need for justice or

you don't, but like, it's not, that is,

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that is kind of black and white, right?

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Like, you know, what is justice then

like more nuanced, but like, whether

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you are for it or not, it's not

necessarily like, what is that even?

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Like, anyway, um, but, uh, Besides

that, completely weird question, um,

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it was interesting, um, Because that,

that, that is also like sometimes where

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drive comes like of like, oh, this

isn't fair towards me and then like,

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or towards someone else or whatever.

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And I mean, that's a driver

for change and a lot of like

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source for a bunch of activism.

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But, um, but kind of like accepting that

I have to find a way of dealing with that.

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Yeah.

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Um, because like, it will be

even more unfair if I keep on

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trying to change something that I

cannot or like figuring out like.

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Or trying to change my way of like

engaging with that to a point where,

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you know, and I had some, some bad

strategies apparently developed

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over the years as well, like, um,

which are just not necessarily super

209

helpful then for me or anyone else.

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And we're, and so what the diagnosis

brought was kind of like going

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from reacting to acting more.

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Um, like I kept on saying.

213

back then, um, that to an extent, uh,

medication allowed me to figure out how I

214

could be the person that I wanted to be.

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And not just like, you know, trying

to survive in some kind of state.

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Um, and that's kind of

a big thing, I guess.

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Geri: Cause you did talk about

being quite reflective before in

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terms of strategies and what's

going on and What's a priority now?

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Very deliberately thinking

through these things in a way

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that maybe many of us don't.

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Katta: Well, because like

Because we stay reactive.

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Oh no, I was like,

because I have to, right?

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Yeah.

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Because it's not going to be

happening implicitly either.

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Geri: I don't know whether this is

the right way to ask the question,

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but then What strengths has this

given you or highlighted for you

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Katta: Well, to an extent, the thing

of like, you know, staying curious.

228

Like, I'm definitely not

necessarily what you would call a

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specialist in like only one area.

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I'm like more of a generalist.

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I'm not super generalist,

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So I think I'm more, I have the

advantage of drawing on more things,

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like in keeping by necessity, um,

so to speak, uh, more threads.

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Uh, in parallel, and so I sometimes see

connections that are not that available to

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others, at least it seems, but also like

others have access to connections that I

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don't necessarily have and, and I'm very

appreciative of them sharing them as well.

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Like, this is not, I'm not

trying to say like, you know,

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um, that this is only a me thing.

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It's, it's very much like,

happening in other cases as well.

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Uh, and, um, besides that, uh, I do see

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I mean, ultimately, um, it's just like

I had to make this work for me, but

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also like ultimately everybody has to,

I mean, to some extent it's easier or

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like it's, I guess it's easier or not

as easy for others, but I actually don't

244

have any insight into that as well.

245

So I don't know necessarily how to talk

about this without being too presumptuous.

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Um, Because, like, people have their own

struggles and, um, and then I have a lot

247

of students who are just neurodivergent

and so we do share the same kind of,

248

like, insights, but, um, but even with

those who at least do not identify as

249

neurodivergent, I feel like there is,

like, you know, collaboration at some

250

point and, like, they, um, I mean, that

might just be the group that has been

251

kind of, like, Amalgamizing around me.

252

But like, yeah, I don't know.

253

I don't want to be presumptuous and

I feel like everybody has to work

254

around getting this thing to work.

255

And I, um, I maybe had to do

it more explicitly than others.

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Sometimes it feels certainly that way.

257

Or I might just like have no

filter and talk about it all

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the time or what have you.

259

Geri: So you don't operate in

a vacuum, of course, you know,

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you're part of this group.

261

I remember.

262

sitting at my table in my office

where you said, Oh, by the way, I'm,

263

you know, I'm queer or whatever.

264

And, and also talking about when you

were diagnosed with ADHD, what did I do?

265

What did we do that was good and

supportive for you in that position?

266

And what could we have done?

267

What could I have done

that could have been?

268

better or more supportive.

269

Katta: You took a whole lot of

time until you learned my pronouns.

270

Geri: Well, and I can't

believe I misgendered you here.

271

I thought I was doing really well.

272

And I, , I remember saying to you,

you know, like I've had 60 years of,

273

Conditioning, for a particular way of

speaking and it's taking a while, but

274

Katta: You can decide whether you

leave that in, but there was this

275

moment where you were at some retreat

in Canada that was led by a non

276

binary person and you came back and

basically tried to explain how being

277

non binary is to me and I was like, wow.

278

I felt a little bit like,

you know, I prepared you for

279

this, let's say it that way.

280

That was a moment.

281

But like, see, that I can say these

things, and like, I mean, you can decide

282

whether you leave it in or not, but um, I

can say these things, that is a, like, I

283

feel like you just like, you didn't have

to understand things to make them work.

284

And so, for example, What I really

appreciated, I had this nervous breakdown

285

at one point before I was diagnosed,

right, when I was sitting in your office

286

and was basically like, I can't do this

anymore, I am doing a PhD, I only have one

287

thing to do, I don't know what is wrong

with me, but like, I cannot, it's, it's

288

breaking me, quite literally, like it

was really bad, and I think I cried even,

289

like I had a full on mental breakdown.

290

And you were just like, okay,

I have this other job for you.

291

Like you, I guess you didn't understand

because like, I don't know, maybe you did.

292

Did you understand before?

293

I don't, I don't know.

294

I'm now questioning everything.

295

Yeah, exactly.

296

Like, right, like I

didn't know what was up.

297

Um, I was just like, Oh

God, I need another job.

298

At least the second thing to do.

299

And, cause I also did that all the time.

300

Like, even during my studies, either

I studied two things or I was in city

301

council as well or what have you.

302

And.

303

It was just, yeah, and you just gave

me another job and then I was like

304

happier and later I got diagnosed,

but, um, but like these things of just

305

accepting people without having the

need to fully, like, understand that

306

and make sense of it for yourself and

like just being like, okay, this is

307

what a person needs and I don't need

to, like, how can I work towards that?

308

I think that is great in

terms of an environment.

309

I just also needed to say something that

you didn't do well, because otherwise

310

it would seem like I suck up to you.

311

And

312

Geri: I demonstrated it very

clearly earlier in the conversation.

313

For people who are in research groups

who may be leading groups or whatever,

314

do you have any particular advice

for them about how they might best

315

support people who are starting to

recognize Whether it's neurodivergence

316

or, um, gender diversity issues.

317

Katta: Well, just like, yeah, doing that.

318

Like, not trying to figure out

what it means for them actually

319

beforehand, but like, rather being

in conversation and like, yeah.

320

Um, like, um, taking, taking them

seriously when they say these things

321

and not being dismissive about it.

322

Um, yeah.

323

Geri: Because they are life experiences,

like, you've dealt with such a range of

324

things that you've just talked about, I

don't know, not, certainly not glibly,

325

but you've just talked about as matter

of factly, rather, is probably a better

326

word, that I have no experience of.

327

And it sounds overwhelming to have

gone through all that, and in awe of.

328

All that you've been all that you've done

and achieved and also more particularly,

329

I think the contributions of what you've

given back because in the middle of all

330

of the work that you've done to, to get

to the awards and the achievements and the

331

grants that you've got the huge service.

332

You know, you talked about

feeling like something's not

333

fair, being a driver for change.

334

You've been really active in

that You do do a lot of peer

335

support and, also activism.

336

You talked about writing an article,

like being upset about, the way gender

337

is represented in papers and writing

an article about how we should talk

338

or co authoring an article about

how we should talk about gender.

339

Katta: That sounds almost prescriptive.

340

So I didn't mean it

prescriptive, but like, yeah.

341

Like, the main message of that article

is that people should think about,

342

like, how, what they want to know

about gender, why they want to know

343

it, and like, which groups, what is

the group conceptualization of gender.

344

And then we make an offer that

will, like, you know, be useful for

345

a bunch of, like, default cases,

but like, my main thing was always,

346

like, you need to think about this.

347

Because also the language keeps

on changing and, um, the kind of,

348

like, good practices around that.

349

Yeah.

350

Geri: So it's more of an invitation

to people to really be much

351

more thoughtful and reflective.

352

Katta: Yeah, I guess.

353

Geri: And you also mentioned

that this was written with the

354

authors whose initial paper

355

Katta: you Yeah, with some of them.

356

Yeah.

357

Yeah, um, Daniela Lottridge and Oliver

Haimson were the co authors on that one.

358

Um, and they are two of

the original authors.

359

And it was just a paper where they kind

of, it's a very good paper actually.

360

I mean they show how, um, how different

groups conceptualize gender differently.

361

And so with the same way of asking gender,

in that case a free text form field,

362

they got wildly different responses

um, between fantasy football players.

363

Which is a thing that men

do in the US like cis men.

364

It's apparently very male coded.

365

I have no idea how that works.

366

I only from that paper, I

know that it even exists.

367

But, uh, and Tumblr users

who are notoriously queer.

368

Um, and so it was just like, you know, in

the one, in the first case, they got a lot

369

of like, but I'm a man, you can see that,

like, why are you even asking me that way?

370

And like, why is there a free

text, or whatever, silly answers.

371

And then the other one, there was like,

you know, nuance kind of like ways of

372

describing your gender and getting really

down to like a very like descriptive

373

way and even thank yous and all that.

374

Um, or like, you know, just the gender.

375

Um, but you had that kind of like palpable

difference between kind of being thankful

376

and, and for the opportunity to self

express gender and the other one of like,

377

why do you make me think that is a bit

mean as an interpretation on my end,

378

but like sometimes it feels like that.

379

Anyway, um, and that was really cool,

like how they showed that you have

380

to have nuance about these groups

and, um, and who you ask with, uh,

381

and who you are asking about gender.

382

Um, and then.

383

They come to, they came to the conclusion

that, um, you should have like female,

384

male, or men, uh, woman, man, and other.

385

And I was like, why do you

keep literally othering us?

386

Like, that's not necessarily a

great choice of words, uh, I feel.

387

And like, it got me, it was a bit

mad, cause like I, I like these

388

people and I was like, I expected

better from you, I thought you

389

had more understanding on that.

390

That was, I think, literally

something I said and they do.

391

And um, and then I really like that,

um, that revised, uh, recommendation.

392

First of all, it does

get a lot of attention.

393

That was not what I expected because

it's just an interactions article

394

that doesn't go fully through

peer review or anything, but, um.

395

But, uh, just that it also we have made

that part of like the article that you

396

have that continuous interaction, um,

with things, which is maybe something

397

that I should say in terms of like,

because I have the feeling that a

398

lot of people within our community.

399

So how do I phrase that?

400

So I've also been publicly

attacked or semi publicly for

401

being like, you know, for being

discriminatory towards white men.

402

Um, which, uh, which I'm saying

in this tone because that is

403

not how discrimination works.

404

But, um, Anyway, uh, I've been attacked

for that publicly and I also sometimes

405

encounter people who are like, Well,

of everything that I heard of you, it's

406

surprising that you're such a nice person.

407

Which I'm like, first

of all, I'm not nice.

408

But also, like, I'm not

sure what they heard.

409

Because like, it always comes up,

I was like afraid of meeting you.

410

And I'm like, why though?

411

Because like, I'm not sure.

412

But it seems kind of like, there

seems to be an image around.

413

That, you know, where I'm just

overly critical about things.

414

And I do express critique pretty

bluntly and pretty harshly.

415

That's fair.

416

But it's always towards the thing, right?

417

Like, that doesn't mean that

I'm not willing to talk.

418

That doesn't even mean

that I mean that I'm right.

419

But I do feel these things very strongly.

420

And so I do kind of like put them out

there very strongly in the ways that I,

421

you know, kind of like engage with them.

422

But that doesn't mean that those are

fixed or like set in stone either.

423

And like sometimes I feel it

doesn't come across that there is

424

more flexibility attached to that.

425

And I am not sure how to fix

that or whether it needs fixing.

426

But yeah, I think this article

particularly is a good example of

427

what can happen when you, when you

engage with critique that was brought

428

upon very bluntly, um, in a, in a

productive way that I think was then

429

beneficial to all of us ultimately.

430

Geri: So I I previously hadn't I, hadn't

ever thought about other as othering.

431

For me, it was good gesture

about non, like recognizing that

432

there are more than two genders.

433

So I guess it's a learning

journey for all of us as well.

434

Yeah, that's fine.

435

I sort of also feel like a lot of

this is changing as we go along and

436

as we're all learning and norms are

changing and cultural differences.

437

Katta: There are articles that I wrote

where I describe autism in ways that

438

make me feel ashamed about myself.

439

Yeah.

440

And now it is.

441

And like, this is fine.

442

I do, like, it's not fine.

443

It's not fine, um, in that regard,

but like, I also look at that and I'm

444

like, Okay, if I wouldn't have the

need or kind of like the feeling that

445

I would have done better since then.

446

Like.

447

What would it mean if I wouldn't

be ashamed of some of the things

448

that I did earlier because that

would mean that I've never developed

449

either and I haven't learned.

450

Yeah, and so I'm looking forward

to be ashamed about this interview.

451

Geri: Yeah , well, and I think that's

a really important point for all of us.

452

You know, like, we're human and

we're on a learning journey together.

453

And how do we Make space for all sorts

of people and ways and working out how to

454

practically do that how to talk about it

455

Katta: But like in the words

of Hanne De Jaegher, just

456

like letting them be as good.

457

Mmm.

458

Yeah It's also how they can do their

best work I feel no Yeah, like just

459

experiencing that with some of my students

who have made who like appreciate and,

460

just letting people be is, I think, a

good way of allowing them to, um, to do

461

their best work and kind of engage with,

with like the knowing part of it all.

462

Because like, the thing is, like, I

talk about this activism and I talk

463

about all these things, but ultimately

to me, that is also about kind of the.

464

fancier said, like epistemic plurality of

like the different ways of knowing because

465

like these different bodies have just like

different ways of engaging with the world.

466

And if we wouldn't have that space for

these different bodies, we would lose

467

out on so many perspectives and within

like, you know, within more classical

468

terms, you could describe that as

triangulation and like just like making

469

sure you have these different insights

and like these different ways of engaging.

470

And that ultimately makes for better

research and for better science.

471

And that is like my driver there as well.

472

Like, it's not just like, you

know, Oh, justice is great.

473

Justice is great, I guess.

474

But like, also, um, it's just,

this is the job that we're doing.

475

Oops.

476

Geri: So that knock at the door

was for, your next meeting.

477

So in, in looking at wrapping up, um,

I don't know, I feel like you have

478

so much to talk about and so much to

share and your openness about who

479

you are, your generosity and sharing

that, The fact that you are straight

480

and direct and that you challenge us

helps us all to be better and helps us

481

all to be in different ways as well.

482

And I think that there are probably

10 million other things that

483

I will want to have asked you.

484

But what are the things that you

would like to say just in wrapping up?

485

Katta: I don't know.

486

Like, I know, um, like, I feel, I

said, like, I didn't go into this,

487

like, with a particular agenda

of, like, sharing this or that.

488

I think it's, um, I think if

there's anything, then it's kind

489

of like, you know, um, that, that

people shouldn't be afraid about.

490

Figuring out who they are, because

like, that is actually a nice

491

thing to, to kind of like, do, no?

492

Mmm.

493

Like, also, um, Also like,

recognizing when that might differ.

494

Uh, no, not even that.

495

Like, when that, I was just

thinking, like, recognizing when that

496

differs, because that was one of the

motivators, like, after my diagnosis.

497

So then, kind of like, two things.

498

But no.

499

Maybe also just be curious about who these

other people are, to an extent, right?

500

Like,

501

Geri: Respectful curiosity.

502

Katta: Respectful.

503

Like, um, because there are kind of

like questions that are invasive.

504

But, oh, I wanted to, previously I

wanted to add, like, there are a bunch

505

of people who make experiences that I

have absolutely no idea how that is.

506

Um.

507

For example, like, I am hearing, so I

don't have any kind of insight into how

508

a deaf lived experience is, but also,

I have never been pregnant, and I will

509

never be pregnant, so, like, I don't

know how that is, and that seems like a

510

huge thing, I'm like, you know, kind of

like, you know, other people growing,

511

like, a life in their own body, that

must be hard, like, seems, seems like

512

a big thing, um, and, like, And, and

I'm bringing this example in particular

513

because that is so clearly something

that only specific people experience

514

and that we all have kind of a blasé

understanding about it as a difference.

515

And that is kind of like how I

wish that we would engage with

516

like how people are different.

517

Being a bit curious, being supportive,

but also like just like acknowledging

518

that that is the case and that's it.

519

Geri: I don't know if we have

time just for a quick comment.

520

One of the things that.

521

I feel is a tension is the thing of

the work that you've often talked

522

about needing to do to educate

people and, our response, people's

523

responsibility to be curious, respectfully

curious and educating themselves.

524

Katta: Yeah, but I mean, if

you have a culture at your lab.

525

Where you talk about your needs, right?

526

And where you accept those needs.

527

And where people feel free to kind

of like say, I don't know, actually.

528

Like, um, I mean we have people here at

the institute, which is great, who have

529

like the sign at their door, who are like,

if this door is closed then slack us if

530

you need anything but don't just barge in.

531

Because they need that space, but they

also feel comfortable just saying that.

532

And I feel like it doesn't

always have to be asking.

533

Um, it can just be accepting

and that letting be.

534

And, um.

535

But if you have a culture where people

can have the freedom to reflect on what

536

they need and then actually ask for it, or

kind of like, you know, set the parameters

537

so that they get that, that is great.

538

How to kind of like, you know,

actually facilitate that and like

539

how that makes it work, you are

much more the expert on that.

540

I'm just trying to emulate that.

541

Um, ultimately, yeah, just,

um, yeah, showing an interest.

542

Like it doesn't, like, at least the thing

is like if you do it strategically, so

543

to speak, I don't feel it makes sense and

then it, the whole purpose is gone again.

544

Mm.

545

Because I had that once, um, I had

a colleague who kept on asking me

546

questions about things that I had the

feeling that I, they had an answer and

547

they just wanted me to get there myself.

548

And, and I totally get

where that comes from.

549

And that is good advice that you

ask people to kind of like come to

550

their own solutions, but you also

need to be prepared that those

551

might be different from your own.

552

And they weren't necessarily always.

553

And so.

554

So, in that regard, like, that's kind of

like, you know, that's what I mean with

555

like, don't be too strategic about it.

556

It needs to come from a place

where you kind of like, you

557

know, just want to do that.

558

Um, where you are then kind of like with

this example, when you want to know about

559

these other answers that are out there.

560

Geri: So a lovely invitation

to end on for people.

561

I don't know, because we're all

different in different ways.

562

Yeah.

563

And some, you know, there's some

that maybe fit more of a normatively

564

oriented model than bodies and ways

of being, but whatever that might

565

mean, is there anything normative?

566

Katta: And again, like they

probably, probably not, right.

567

But like in terms of normative, but

like, that doesn't mean they had it easy.

568

That means sometimes they had like, um,

Like privileges are difficult to kind of

569

understand, but because like we're not

actively, or we're not necessarily taught

570

to actively reflect on them, or sometimes

it's just like something we notice.

571

Like car drivers don't notice the

entire infrastructure that is up for

572

them that we chose over public transit.

573

I mean, not here, but like, you

know, there, there's just access

574

provided in some ways and then

you often don't think about it.

575

To come back to that previous thing

and then you don't have to think

576

about it because it's just there

and then that friction of not being

577

afforded it is sometimes more palpable.

578

And, and, you know, a lot of people,

um, might not experience specific

579

kinds of access frictions, but that

doesn't mean that they experience none

580

or that, you know, um, their, their

struggles aren't relevant as struggles.

581

So I would sometimes.

582

Like to, um, kind of like have,

like I would like to see a

583

bit more solidarity sometimes.

584

So for example, with cis women, I

sometimes have the feeling that they,

585

um, that they limit the term of their

womanhood, but also like the term

586

of their solidarity in ways that are

unhelpful to everyone and then they

587

just reproduce patterns of power that

are harmful ultimately to them as well.

588

Or, um.

589

Or that sometimes we kind

of like try to override, um,

590

others experiences with our own.

591

Geri: Lots of food for thought.

592

Thank you very much, Katta.

593

Glad we finally did get

to sit down and chat.

594

Katta: And now you know about the die.

595

Geri: And now I know about the die.

596

And the six sided die,

that I didn't know that.

597

Great.

598

Thank you.

599

And that's the end of my

conversation with Katta.

600

So much food for thought there.

601

And what I find really amazing is

I've worked with Katta for years and.

602

I guess we talked here in a

way that we don't often talk

603

day to day and it reminds me.

604

That it's worth taking time to sit

down and chat with colleagues and

605

getting to know them in a different

way beyond the day-to-day conversations

606

that we might normally have.

607

And I love Katta's call out to us

just to allow people space, to be.

608

And embracing the fact that there

are very different ways of being

609

and knowing, And accepting that.

610

And that doesn't just mean about the

bigger labeled ways in the, in the neuro

611

divergent ways that, gender specific ways

that Katta has talked about Katta also was

612

very generous in pointing to ways that.

613

We're all different and have

different experiences that

614

we often don't think about.

615

So I leave that with us

as for myself as well.

616

As a prompt.

617

Just to be more reflective about the

ways in which we're all different.

618

And being curious about that in a

respectful, way, and in a way that's

619

about the curiosity, aiming to allow

the space for people to be themselves.

620

And as Katta said, where

they can do their best work.

621

You can find the summary

notes, a transcript and related

622

links for this podcast on www.

623

changingacademiclife.

624

com.

625

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

626

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627

And you can follow

ChangeAcadLife on Twitter.

628

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

629

we can do academia differently.

630

And you can contribute to this by rating

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631

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632

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633

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