If you are the conductor of a famous orchestra who must accept leading from the front, even if it’s hard to be so visible. And then you throw your whole body into your leadership. As it suggests and invites your team to give not just with their hands but their heads and hearts too. I hope i express the glorious nature of Martyna Pastuszka interview this week. She was complemented by Anna Kuk who leads from the middle and has found that it’s possible to lead from the middle and be visible.

Julia Middleton 0:01

Julia Middleton 0:23

We are women from across the world determined to find an approach to leadership that resonates with women. We'll be successful. So that women the world over will be able to say, if that's leadership, I'm in.

Julia Middleton 0:43

Welcome, welcome. Welcome. Julia Middleton expedition leader. This week's episode is is unlike others. There's there's still two interviewees, but they're both from the same country. They're both Polish and they're both musicians. They are however, different. They are 10 years apart in their careers, of different generations.

Julia Middleton 1:07

Martina is an incredibly famous conductor of an orchestra, a gloriously structured entity, that she leads very much from the front and accepts the responsibility of leading very much from the front. And Anna who is 10 years younger than her, a chamber musician, which means that she knows about leading collectives and leading very much from the middle

Julia Middleton 1:36

Anna also is a member of the expedition, an extraordinary violinist. Both Polish, and I loved speaking to them both about leadership and about leadership in a world that I know so so so little about, of music.

Julia Middleton 1:53

Let's start by getting Anna to tell us a little bit about what she saw Martina do that was so different from other conductors she'd ever seen.

Julia Middleton 2:10

So Anna, you told me that Martina is incredibly physical in her conducting and therefore, leading.

Anna 2:21

When you see her leading, it's just, it's like a dance but not dance for look at me how I how I move. But let's be together with the with the shake, with the flip of phrase. Let's be together in the meaning.

Julia Middleton 2:40

Do you do this consciously Martina?

Martina 2:43

I would say I guess I know the power of a gesture as someone who normally adores going to the theatre. And the way you, the way the the actor appears on the stage tells so much more than words and some of them do not manage to appear so powerful as the silent ones, but really glorious no, with a glorious posture. And then you think like you can say so many things just by the way you look or just by the position of the chin, you know, you can be just proud and unbeatable because your your chin is slightly higher. And then you can remove this because you put it low, lower. And then of course we do as human beings we do read it, we do react on the little gestures, because we're trained to do it. All the body language is like this. So you can influence someone else by this beautiful suggestion of interpretation, certain phrases as well, you know, speaking, and, but playing but not taking away the freedom of interpretation. So you can suggest but you don't take the freedom of feeling creative. And I thought like that's the first thing how to appreciate by the intellectually appreciate players so they can give what they want. But you still maneouvre slightly what they what you want to get. What will probably fit to some others in the example. And then there is another thing. I just think simply that we should use much more body and what we know as humans to to what we know for being together. If the dancers can actually dance together, if we can dance with the aunt or uncle on the wedding, you know party and actually synchronise much faster than some of the orchestra players. We should probably learn from the wedding parties because it takes I don't know, I mean, suddenly dancing with the old aunt, you adjust the tempo of dance, you adjust the steps, you measure the movements, you take care, you know, you suddenly remember that she had the problem with the right hand so you shouldn't press it too much. You know, suddenly all these things, that sensitivity. Intuition suddenly plays a huge role because you'd come out to talk about all of those little elements to dance to three, five minutes. And you actually do dance in a different tempo in the different dynamic, you discover someone else, you discover the music, using all the things except for verbalization.

Martina 5:14

So yes, I do actually thought how to make it really working very efficiently. So you do have influence, but you don't take away the freedom, because I think the freedom is element that musicians and artists value a lot. They are not so easy to give up, to give up and to give in the liberty. You know, it's like, I would say, we're all slightly French, you know, slightly individual, we just don't want to lose our individuality as an artist. And I would say that's the, that's, that's probably why you need to suggest but not force. It works basically on everything. You go to the shop and you say smiling, good morning, and the whole atmosphere, the temperature, which you know, raises, I mean, you just suddenly there is more sun if someone smiles. And I think it's one of those things, you know, I mean, like, don't forget to smile, and it's the same during work. If there is a trouble, the troubles are never so big that you cannot smile. And you think again, that sounds like a you know, like kind of American one sentence advice. But we do react, it seems like we do react on this body language very, very much. And the facial expressions and the gestures on the invitation, you know, I mean, like conducting or doing something with people, it's a lot about moving, moving hands, some of them can be more stiff, some of them can be really embracing. I do it last 20 years, I would still think about how to do it without verbalization.

Anna 6:52

You know, when actually, that made me think about one of the most incredible exercise I've done with my quartet, my previous one. And we were asked to play backwards, you know, we were facing our backs, so we couldn't see each other. And we couldn't touch each other. And still, we were listening. But you know, that was incredible. Because at one moment, someone asked us to smile while playing. And you know, that made a change. And we didn't, we didn't know in which moment we we smile, like smile in the moment you think it's right. So we didn't know when is the moment, but actually, the teacher who was standing behind us that, you know, you were playing differently when you were smiling all all in one moment. And you know, this was also the thing I heard at one of your rehearsal. It was an American conductor, Larry Livingstone. And he said, allow your body to smile.

Anna 8:03

And I was at the first year of studies, I was very serious. And I was very ambitious. And now I will, you know, show all I can show and he was, you're too serious. Just allow your body to smile. And all of a sudden, you know, that was a big change in the in the communication that's first but the second in your self feeling you don't need to fight.

Julia Middleton 8:27

Martina, you like leading from the front?

Martina 8:32

We do have different characters, I've been given one that indeed works best in the front. I wouldn't say that it's particularly easy to lead from the front. But then, but then I always think it's about being responsible and a little bit ethical. If you've got if you've been given certain character naturally, you know, I mean, it's difficult when you go into the room, you enter the room and everyone's silent. Suddenly, there is a silence because you enter the room. You can actually it's very intimidating no? But it's the body language you just go into into the room. And then everyone notices you. And it's been like that since I remember. And I tried to make it the smartest, I can the most gentle I can imagine. But it's still it's much more visible than someone else going into the room and you think like well, it's a duty behind it. No, there is a there is a duty behind that thing. So it's been given because because I should use it, so I learned how to use it. It's not the easiest for the emotions, however.

Julia Middleton 9:44

How do you cope with that emotional thing of being, I remember one of my children, my middle daughter when she was a baby, if all the eyes turned to her, she used to burst into tears. She was fine as long as people weren't looking at her. How do you cope with, and many leaders have this challenge, you accept the responsibility occasionally of being the leader from the front, that makes you incredibly visible and incredibly vulnerable to your mistakes?

Yes, the biggest impact on that balance between uncomfortable situation and satisfaction was to discover that you go onstage people actually came here because they want to listen to something beautiful. And it's like a service more than actually, it's like a service. That's why I think playing music being on a stage, doing things that, you know, no one in the government thinks it's really so important, because the first cut of the budget goes always to the culture, that actually, people need it, I mean, I, you know, I feel the need to see the beautiful sculptures or paintings. So people come there, and they, they want something, they need something, and then we just do, that's a service. And then you can add a lot of testosterone to the female body, to have the will to go and show off to get to get the will to lead, to get the will to, to actually share things, but you do need to raise a little bit testosterone level. And then I learned from these and from the sports, techniques like the tennis or the ones, you know, like boxing or something that when you raise the level of testosterone, because it's extremely useful. And that was, that was quite a huge difference when you actually learned that, like, for example, putting the... stretching the legs, and just standing like the guard, you know, on the, on the border, it's not I mean, they, they stand in a special way. And then you think like, of course, this stretched position of the shoulders and of hips, it's actually making you producing more testosterone than cortisol. So you actually are much more to, to win, to battle, to fight, to show to appear and to exist, you know, somewhere there, this power of existence is in this testosterone, things no? I mean, that's what makes these boys going on the stage and they're like a soldiers. And then I see girls trying to be so small almost to shrink, you know, with the, you know, I'm in this position of having this shoulders so close to each other, and then legs crossed, and, and she's so small, and she's so tiny, and, you know, there is no will to exist somehow, to pres- to be presented on the stage. And I feel like maybe we could learn something, we can use it as well. All of those things just to be a little bit more brave and do things that matters, that's what I thought.

Whereas Anna you prefer to lead from the middle.

I, actually, it has a lot in common with the things that Martina said about visibility and invisibility, because I was raised as an invisible. I was I was many, many years hidden, I took at the beginning, I took all all ensembles and orchestra as as, as kind of thing that I can hide in, I had a feeling of I want to be, you know, meaningful, I want to have a meaning in this collectivity. But I, I was raised as a really, you know, invisible girl. It was frustrating for me. But at the same time, I couldn't find the tool to overcome it. I remember there was three moments in my life, then I decided, I decided just like that, to be visible to myself first. And then to the others. I love being in the middle and just, you know, inspire someone around me to go with me with the energy. Because, you know, when you have a leader, I mean, for example, conductor who's very passionate about his job or her job if it's a woman conductor, you know, if they treating themselves as a point and only one source of energy, the whole orchestra, the energy is just washed, it's washed up. And at the end, at the edges, you have nothing and people who have you know, can dig in the nose or you know, do whatever, but because they feel they're invisible and then have no meaning in the collectivity. And I remember there was a two changing moments in my professional also the social life, where I find out that I can be visible within my passion being in the collective, not as a front leader, but within. I was a member of the European Union youth orchestra. And, you know, I was I got there from the reserve list, I was trying three times, and the fourth time was the lucky one. But still, I got there because someone else couldn't come. That was in my head. I wasn't like, okay, they chose me because I was good, but not they, they chose someone else. And I am a replacement, you know. And at the beginning, there was the first meeting, there was the people who are already there from the second...from previous editions, so they know knew each other very well. And I felt that they invite me to this collectivity, but you can't be one of us. So I will say, okay, I will adapt to them, I will follow what they do. And I will try to be, still again, invisible. And then there was Marshall Marcus, which is the CEO, at that time, was the CEO of, of EUYO. And he said something brilliant. And he said, you know, don't think what what you can screw up, think what you can contribute to us. And then I felt I was, I'm an important element that actually can give something more than something is showing. And there was a preparatory session, because each each summer tour is starting with Peter Stark conducting. And he's actually not the conductor who will lead us at the concert, he's just preparing us. And the aim of this session is to start to listen to each other, and start to lead from the back. So he was just by looking at us, for the people at the back, I was playing in the back of seconds, you know, seventh stand you know, it's a huge collectivity, and you feel anonymous, you feel invisible. And then he started to look at us that not the way oh I will check now if you're well prepared. No, he was like, encouraging and bracing us from the backs to give more energy. And while you were giving more energy from the back, I felt I started to be visible, and I can lead actually, lead from the back, and not against the conductor, but actually within the vision, that collective vision. And that was for me, you know, actually, the sound is like one is like, you know, disconnected like this, the hands are playing, but the rest of the body is still. But now, the full orchestra is playing not just the front. We are together as a one person.

But Martina, this must be, this must be heaven when you achieve this as a conductor. You talked about the problems of, I'm checking my notes so that I get your words absolutely right. You need intellectual engagement with the orchestra, otherwise, it feels feudal. And you talked to me about the sort of slave mentality... what... explain that concept.

Well, the slave mentality, it's very interesting, it's like, like, it's the ability to leave intellectual, emotional part untouched, while we do something else with your hands. It can exist in every possible, within every possible job. I mean, I understand that when you when you work in the slaughter house. I mean, that's very useful ability. If there was an alcohol problem in the family, and they had to learn how to switch off or any other like a traumatic problem in the family, so they had to switch on and off, you know, like the body still is doing washing but the heart is not there. And the mind is not there, it's empty. And then if someone have you always been supervised by someone or forced to do something, us in most of the slaved countries, that was exactly the thing and I still consider Soviet times in Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, and all these countries to be the slaved countries, because that's the mentality apart from you know, the real slave or feudal that we consider to be 18th 17th 18th century. I think also the 20th century for this part of Europe to be to be still get having this continuity in that slavery is that you do not take what is proposed as yours. You do not involve yourself intellectually or emotionally because it's been not even given to you but it you just have to obey. So this is like if you don't agree with someone else, if you don't agree with the oppressor, like the Soviet Army or whatever, this thing that you refuse, using your emotions and intellect, it's your only way of showing this approval. The rest of it you do with the hands, but but your head and the heart disapprove. And that mentality, somehow is rooted very much, so we lost a little bit control over it. And then of course you need people that will break it, you need to, you need a new light, you need a new stream of hope no, like, like being integral, just having this thing really... the integrity that we work very much is, is the is the key word I would say for that. And you have to feel that the person on top, it's not your enemy, which was like that, always, always, all these centuries, you never felt equal. Because always the one on top was someone given by the oppressor, I'm given by your owner. Therefore, you do not address yourself towards that direction. I mean, you don't really turn towards that direction, there is someone that you have to somehow block your, you know, against. And that's the problem with the feudal, feudal mentality after last time we talked Julia, I just, I just really had to put that very, so the definition is a little bit more shorter and clearer.

The beautiful definition, and it's not limited, of course, to Eastern Europe or to...it's, it's this, it exists everywhere, doesn't it? And it, and it is the challenge of the leader, not to be the enemy, but to persuade people to bring their whole selves to the task.

Exactly.

So how does the leader do it?

Well, first thing when Anna started to speak I thought, like, first thing, you need to really place people with the right character to the right place, because if you if you really settle them wrongly, they will have a constant feeling of being not appreciate. So if they either you work really hard on telling them where they are, and why why they are exactly in this place and look higher in the hierarchy. Because it's a hierarchy. I mean, there is no question about it. But the person must be really content about the place the person actually, is settled. So first thing really think very, very carefully, leader, I think they'll be fantastic always not to make a mistake on where to, and how to put people with whom to pair them, as well so they feel comfortable, and they feel appreciated. And if they have a new idea, or you know that you've got someone who always come with ideas, they might not always work and you never can be sure that that this time will be successful moment, that will be good to find the less prestigious concert, less prestigious moments that you can afford, actually having someone fulfil their their needs without losing prestige. So it would be good to know the dreams of people or the needs of people or just notice, what is the what is the animal behind that behaviour, knowing someone can be someone just might need a solo solo few bars, you know, just appear for a certain moment that might be even not very well played. But he or she just got the moment, then was finding a reason why to get up in the morning, you know, I mean, life is very long, and you get to know people for 30 40 years, I guess now, because that's how long we do play together. That's how long we we work. And so I guess you know, the first thing is about leadership in this situation is actually to appreciate things and to place them in the right place in the orchestra. And I think it's many things like techniques, why you why you can make people and how you can make people feeling appreciated. Even knowing what where are the limits for now, of their artistry. Let's call it like this.

Anna, you're nodding and nodding.

I was thinking, I read in some book, I don't remember which one. I read that musicians were asked about what they doing. What's the task and the musicians who were answering by the real task. So I play in the third stand. I play in the [__]. They were less satisfied with the work than the people who are saying from the same position from the same stand. They used to say I play in the third stand, I contribute to the common tempo or I contribute not about what they do but the contribution, the role in the collective playing made them feel they need it. Because just the task of playing somewhere, doesn't mean anything to them.

I don't want to miss this extraordinary expression you used Martina, that this has stuck with me. You said to me is, is another person's perception different from me Because they see more or they see less than I do? It's a beautiful concept. I've never heard it before.

It's my father's concept. He's told me, If I do differ with you, and I'm 40 years older or 30 years older, do you think why is that? Because you didn't make one circle of thoughts forward? Or it's because I didn't make this circle? It's because I'm stupid, or because I'm smarter and experienced. When I was 15 I got it, I must have been a quite a difficult, difficult teenager, I guess from that sentence. But I felt like, that's incredible. Because if you make people that know something, like faster, and disagree with you, either they're not smart enough, but then half of the population would be not smart enough, which is hardly true at all, they do know different things or they know better, simply more because of the experiences because of the of the age of observations of reading books being there now knowing the mechanism. And I thought that's very probably true.

But it's also true that sometimes they don't see things because they don't see as much as you.

It is. It is. I would rather assume that people see more than than me, but I must say, I was very surprised how often people come back and they say, well, I didn't believe you the first time you said that. And I went there and I and it's really like you said, you know, I didn't believe you. But you're right. And then I'm like, why don't you believe me the first time? And why did you didn't you really approve on what I've said. And then I felt like people might not know so much about certain things as I do. That was a huge step. And it still is, it still is, to accept the possibility I'm not very, I was not very keen of accepting it. People might possibly see less, or understand less from the situation than I do. And I think for, for for girls, as I observe that in my pedagogical practice, for girls, this idea that I see more and understand more than others, it's not the natural and instinctive one. They would rather give that honour to someone else. And I think that makes a huge difference. Because then you have to actually understand and distinguish between these two groups of people. It's not always easy. The instinct doesn't always go very much, doesn't follow that that path of thinking I'm actually right no. It takes a little bit more time.

Is that concept useful to you, Anna?

Yes, yes. It's very hard, actually. It's a very difficult transition [__] for us all to understand that actually, you can guide something.

And that sometimes you're right.

And sometimes I'm right.

It takes a while to realise that doesn't it?

It does.

Martina you told me that you you love the question that we've asked ourselves, which is can we find an approach to leadership that resonates with women, and the word resonate was, you said it was a good word. Why?

The more resonant instrument you've got, you take with you much more people, and you also give a much more beautiful qualities to what you produce, what the group produces. So the more resonant instruments you've got, the more resonant concert hall you have, the more beautiful and refined process... refined results you get. And the process is that the volume gets louder. I mean, that goes up the volume and this pace, you know, it's just it's it goes really beautifully filling in till the last chairs in the concert hall. I mean, you know, the good concert halls, you can hear everything very well. Extremely good volume from every position in the concert hall, even if there are 3000 people. So actually resonate is like you've got something that seems to be very small, but it gives it gives you this ability of actually making everyone hear it on a much larger scope than only you think that you do. And then there is, the better message you've got, the more refined effect and result you might get. Say that and I feel like it's a beautiful thing because if something, it has this inner thing, you know that, but also it goes out, it has this movement of going in and out with a bigger impact. And I'm just playing an amazing instrument, and I must say, and make one of the most appreciated lutea in the in the world just been given to me, I don't know for how long, but I'm lucky. And then you understand that the more refined and beautiful idea content you've got, the impact on reality is just simply bigger, and just raise the whole level of the message of the of the group. And I find that very beautiful, the word, in the way you use it.

Martina, you honour us by finding a way to express the word resonate in a way that that was intended for us when we said we wanted to produce an approach to leadership that resonated with women. Because I love that concept. Resonate means that you fill the concert hall right to the last chairs, right, right, right at the back. The more you resonate, the more you are refined and beautiful in your output, and have an ever greater impact. That's that's got to be our ambition for the expedition and for the approach to leadership that resonates with women.

This, this, this episode, I think, is one of those ones that you're going to have to listen to once or twice because there's so much buried inside. So many of the points about leadership, the ones that that jumped out at me is, is the power of the physical and the physical movements that suggest things to the team rather than imposing things on the team. I thought that was fascinating and beautiful. And reminded me of that episode where Kelly talked about leading a sports team, and how she when she flicked her ponytail at the right moment with one particular member of the team, that member would see her Kelly flick her ponytail, and rise to the challenge because that's what she knew Kelly wanted of her, the the power of small, symbolic physical movements in leadership. Very, very interesting.

I thought that the way Martina expressed the sense of duty in leading even when it requires you to lead from the front, because that's what the role asks of you. That that was something that I've thought about ever since.

And then that that counterbalancing of Anna saying yes, but you can't be the only source of energy. And Anna's discovery that she could be visible even in the collective, fascinating. And then Martina's words about how as a leader, you have to engage all the people in your orchestra, your team, not just to go through the motions, but to involve not just their hands in doing the task, but their minds and their hearts and how to do that. So much in here. That was fascinating. Thank you so so much both Martina and Anna for this glorious episode.

So all I have to say now is don't forget that on Tuesday, the seventh of February at 6pm UK time, we will have our next live session, which will be on my LinkedIn profile and on the Women Emerging Facebook and Twitter pages. Join us with your questions. Join us with your thoughts. Join us particularly because Anna who's just been speaking on this episode is going to join us for the live and answer all all the questions you've got and listening to Anna is is a delicious experience. So, thank you very much, everyone. Thank you, Martina. Thank you, Anna. Look forward to next week. Lots of love, Julia.

To become part of our movement and share your thinking with us, subscribe to the podcast and join the Women Emerging group on our website at womenemerging.org. We love all of the messages you send us, keep them coming